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everybody gather around grab a chair grab a beer let's talk some true crime [Music]
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foreign December 23rd 1991 and blue collar Corsicana Texas this is just about 45 miles south of Dallas
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Diane Barbie was watching the prices right it was about 10 15 A.M when her 11 year old daughter Buffy ran
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in from outside and said Mom the neighbor's house is on fire Diane ran out onto West 11th Street
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and saw that the house just two houses down from hers was in flames the man who lived there Todd Willingham
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was standing shirtless and Barefoot on the porch his upper body covered in soot and his hair burned he was screaming my
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babies are burning up he yelled at Diane to call 9-1-1 Diane's phone was shut off
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so she had to run down the block to a neighbor's home to make the call at 10 24 am
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Todd grabbed a stick smashed it through the front window of the burning house only to have the
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Flames shoot out he tried another window with the same result this was witnessed by Buffy Barbie
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Todd ran into the yard and kneeled in the grass according to another neighbor he cried
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out my babies periodically while falling silent at other times one photo from the scene that day
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shows Todd sitting on the bumper of a fire truck his head bowed down over his knees
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his body language shows despondency when Diane returned to the scene Todd was standing by a chain-linked
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fence Diane could feel the heat from the burning house and soon five Windows not
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previously smashed by Todd blew outward then she said Todd ran to his Cadillac parked by the house
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pushed it down the driveway away from the flames firemen arrived and Todd shouted at them
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that his children were inside in their bedroom in the front of the house where the Flames were shooting from
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a fireman radioed for more backup and said step on it the home we are talking about is a
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one-story wood structure a small home firemen started to spray water on the front porch and into the windows of the
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burning house one firefighter equipped with an air tank and mask was able to enter through
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the front door and proceeded down the hallway to the kitchen a refrigerator blocked the back door of
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the house and the kitchen was empty of people meanwhile out front Todd was becoming
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more and more hysterical a police chaplain was trying to calm Todd who started telling him what had
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happened when a firefighter emerged from the house with a two-year-old in his arms
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he sank to his knees the little girl's arm flopped lifeless the firefighter gave the little girl
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Amber CPR meanwhile Todd rushed toward the still burning house he had to be restrained by police
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chaplain father Monahan to prevent him from entering the burning home restrained to the point that father
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Monahan and three other Corsicana police officers had to wrestle with Todd and handcuff him
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father Monahan got a black eye in the process another firefighter Marvin Smith told
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investigators that when he arrived at the scene he too had to restrain Todd from going into the home
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he told police that Todd was yelling that his babies were in the house and was acting real hysterical
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he restrained Todd from going on to the porch he said based on what I saw on how the fire was
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burning it would have been crazy for anyone to try and go into the house Todd was taken to the hospital
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he had burns on his shoulder face neck hands and his hair was cinched he was kept overnight
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Amber meanwhile was pronounced DOA at the hospital and one-year-old twins Carmen and
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Cameron were declared dead at the scene by a Justice of the Peace [Music] the children's Mother Stacy was tracked
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down and informed of the tragic deaths of her children and the loss of her home as she shopped for Christmas gifts the
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Salvation Army this is true crime garage and this is the case of Cameron Todd Willingham
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[Music] after he was released from an overnight at the hospital Todd was brought in for
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questioning he spoke with fire investigators Douglas Fogg Manuel Vasquez and police officer
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Jimmy Hensley Todd's story was this Stacy his wife left that morning to pay the water and
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electric bills now the family was behind on several accounts this including their
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mortgage and When Stacy went to the Salvation Army to buy presents for the kids after paying these bills the family
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had very little money they didn't even own a stove they just made do with a hot plate and microwave and a deep fryer
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around 9 A.M Todd says that he heard the twins crying in their bedroom so he went
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in he got them out of the crib gave them each a bottle put them on the floor two-year-old Amber stayed asleep in her
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bed in the same room Todd put a baby gate up as there was no door to the kid's room
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Todd went back to bed and fell asleep later he says he was awakened by Amber's cries of daddy daddy she's screaming
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the house when he wakes up is filled with smoke and he could barely see since he slept in the nude he said he
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felt around for his pants and put them on while yelling at Amber telling her to get out of the house
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the house had no phone so he could not call for help by this point he's crouching low and
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he's feeling his way around so he can make his way down the hallway back to the kid's room
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the hallway was filled with black smoke and the air wreaked of burning materials
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he could hear popping noises that he thought were wires and electrical sockets blowing when he got to the kids
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room he had to stand up remember he placed the baby gate in the doorway he stood up to climb over the
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baby gate and at this point his hair caught on fire he put out the Flames with his hands and
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then he got down on the ground and he started crawling around on the floor inside this room this room is now
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engulfed in flames at this time he's feeling around for the girls but unfortunately all he found was a doll he
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couldn't feel Amber in her bed either at this point Todd later related that the fire was all around including the
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top of the walls and on the ceiling but not on the floor this is why he was able
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to crawl and then walk despite being barefoot the heat became unbearable and burning
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debris started to fall on him so he staggered out the front door this is right nearby where he is at this point
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this is when Diane Barbie arrived to find him on the porch he told investigators that he tried to
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get back inside more than once including when he broke the windows with a stick but the house was engulfed in flames and
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the heat was overwhelming investigators asked Todd if he had any idea how the fire started
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he says he wasn't sure but that it seems that it started in the kids room since that's where the Flames seem to be
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coming from when he was staggering down the hallway he said that he and Stacy had three
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space heaters inside the home and that one was in the kids room Todd said Amber got some Whoopins in the
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past for playing with the space heater this might make sense too that the fire started with something electrical since
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he says he heard snapping and popping noises one fire investigator though testified
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that he found this space heater in the girls room in the off position Todd said he could not think of anyone
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who would want to hurt his family he said he and Stacy had their problems but neither of them could live without
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their children one most of these space heaters have some kind of safety mechanism if they tip over that they
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shut off but because of the time period you wonder if they even had a feature like that he said of Amber his
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two-year-old daughter Who Cried Out daddy daddy to tell you the honest to God truth he
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says I wish she hadn't woke me up the willinghams 50 year old home was severely damaged by this fire
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photographs show the chart burned out remains of the walls and the floors in the front of the house yeah I'll post
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pictures of the house and any of the reports that we talk about and all the characters involved
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and all the people involved in this case I'll post pictures of that on Instagram
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at True Crime garage the melted artificial tree and singed teddy bear still soaked from the fire
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hoses is visible in pictures of the scene as are the blackened kids beds bed and baby crib
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the back part of the house where the master bedroom and kitchen are suffered mostly smoke and water damage the couple
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found themselves not only in shock and grief over the loss of their toddlers but bereft of their home at Christmas
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time with no possessions clothing or even money for funerals but rather than pity and compassion
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from the community for grieving parents in the wake of a tragic accident instead
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the tide began to turn the tide was turning against Todd Willingham now we said in the trailer Cameron Todd
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Willingham but anybody that knows this case knows that this man goes by simply Todd so we will for the sake of making
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it easier on ourselves he's just Todd moving forward as is typical with fires arson
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investigators sought to determine the cause of the fire Todd of course gave permission for authorities to go through
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the charred home he said quote I know we might not ever know all the answers but I'd like to
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know why my babies were taken from me end quote the assistant fire chief Douglas Fogg he
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was a Vietnam vet with four purple hearts he had been a firefighter for 20 years
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and he was a certified arson inspector fogg's co-investigator for this case was State Deputy Fire Marshal Manuel Vasquez
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he's considered one of Texas's leading arson investigators Vasquez had a background in Army
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intelligence and had investigated more than 1200 fires in his career fog and Vasquez went over the willingham's 975
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square foot house systematically and painstakingly they said they went in with no
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preconceived notions of what happened Vasquez said quote the fire tells a story I am just The Interpreter after
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examinating the perimeter of the home the inspectors observed that they could open the back door and squeeze into the
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kitchen behind a refrigerator that was in front of this door the appliance had been in that spot
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supposedly for some time the kitchen had smoke and heat damage but it was not burned the fire started
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elsewhere The Men followed the hallway from the kitchen past a laundry room and then the master bedroom to the front
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of the house where a living room was on the left and the kids bedroom was on the
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right the hallway ended at the front door leading out to the front porch now they
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noticed that the laundry room had what they considered to be weird posters on the wall
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a poster of what looked like the Grim Reaper and then other dark themed pictures of skulls
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Amber was found under the covers in the bed in the master bedroom this room too was determined not to be
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where the fire started but it was a different story in the girl's bedroom where the twins bodies
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were found on the floor fog and Vasquez thought back to Todd telling them that he had crawled around
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in the girl's room and only found a doll but two of his children had been right there
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as they continued to move through the home following the evidence they began to formulate some opinions based on
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observations here are the things that figured most heavily into their report the bases of
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the walls in the hallway and front rooms were charred indicating that the fire burned low down which ordinarily fires
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burn upward a regular Char patterns on the floor were shaped like puddles similar to what would form when
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flammable liquids poured onto the floor burn in puddle-like formations the fire burned through the flooring
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carpet and tile and burnt so hot under the kids beds that the mattress coils were Ash White
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they noted that the fire appeared to have burned low to the ground and again normally fires burn up high
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glass pieces from the broken windows displayed a spider web pattern referred to as crazed glass
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fire textbooks at the time attributed this pattern formation to a fire burning extremely fast and hot as would occur
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with a liquid accelerant and then the glass splinters as a result a flashover took place in the front bedroom this
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again is the kid's bedroom the investigators perceived what they believed to be a burn trail from the
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room shared by the girls into the hallway and to the front door at the front door they found that the threshold
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was burned on the front porch brown stains permeated the concrete floor as what might happen with the use of an
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accelerant V patterns on the walls are traditionally considered indicative of extreme smoke and heat radiating upward
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from a burning object the fire inspectors looked for V patterns to decide what was burning hottest and
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quickest to determine the point of origin fog and Vasquez detected three of these
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V patterns in the home one in the kids bedroom one in the hallway and one at the front
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door these three distinctive origin points showed that the fire according to this
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report was set so what it seems like they're observing is that somebody put an accelerant down
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on the floor in three different spots correct and that the fire was burning very hot from
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the bottom up meaning the floor up and I think because Todd is visibly no burns on his feet
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that they start thinking that this is evidence that he possibly started the fire himself
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yeah so to put it in simplest form I think first of all his story his account of his movements through the house
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before he exited the home don't seem to match up with what the post-fire evidence is showing these in inspectors
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right and then on top of that I mean really at the most the most logical thing here is
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if you have more than one point of origin for a fire somebody set that fire right you know an
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accidental fire is going to start in one location and then burn throughout I'm sure somebody will send me a nice email
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that tells me that I'm wrong that there was a situation at one point in the history of our world that a fire was an
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accident and it started in three different points I would argue that and I'm sure investigators would argue that
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would be an extremely extremely extremely rare occurrence if you can find three points of origin you've
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likely found an arson and as you pointed out too if there was an accelerant used it makes
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sense that it would be poured on the floor causing the fire to burn from the the
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floor up rather than wherever it actually started if it were an accident catching the walls up high the ceiling
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and then burning in that manner right correct now I just want to be very clear so you're stating for the record uh
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on this episode that you are not a fire expert I'm not a fire expert my only knowledge
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of fire inspections comes from this case and a few other cases that we've already
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discussed okay art but are you still the crispy colonel I am okay the fire investigators sent samples of
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the burned out home to the lab uh the lab determined that one of these samples did contain evidence of mineral spirits
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something that is found in charcoal lighter fluid yeah this sample that tested positive for accelerant came from
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the threshold of the front door this is interesting too because we talked about that poor Trail or the Fire
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trail that the inspectors noted in their report the report pointed to 20 indicators of
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arson and concluded that the fire with multiple visible points of origin was intentionally set again what they're
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stating is that somebody would pour accelerant in these areas which all led to the front door
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which would lead to that threshold where they found the lighter fluid correct directly from the report they
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are stating that someone ported an accelerant in the girls room under their beds on the floor into the hallway and
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then out the front door and then that person exited ahead of the flames the burning hallway and doorway
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prevented anyone else from escaping out the front door or anyone coming in to help and keep in mind in the kitchen
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they surmise that the refrigerator had been deliberately moved to block this back door right one of the two exit
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points so the back exit point you can't get out because of the refrigerator the front exit point you can't get out of
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because of the Flames if this was set up in this manner then it's I mean somebody intended for the
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children to die in this fire right no survivors now that someone the investigator said was Cameron Todd
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Willingham and this was a triple homicide [Music] [Music] all right cheers mates thanks for
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joining us cheers to you Captain cheers to you crispy Colonel the arson triple homicide ruling wasn't the only thing
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that was working against Todd Willingham despite initial witness reports that Todd had been hysterical and distraught
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crying out for his children yelling to Diane and to have somebody call 9-1-1 right having to be restrained by
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firefighters and father Monahan more than once some of the witnesses began tempering their statements and others
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came out with statements against Todd Diane Barbie told police that she had never seen Todd try to enter the house
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she told PBS Frontline that Todd was a very mean man and she commented to police that Todd seemed more concerned
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about moving his car than with his kids being inside the burning home right Todd
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told police that he moved his car from the burning house so it wouldn't explode causing further damage
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another neighbor said Todd did not appear to be excited or even concerned about the fact that his kids were
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trapped and that he made no effort to go into the flames at times Todd was described as calm and
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defeated squatting in the yard or sitting on the fire truck bumper or sitting on the curb
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and father Monahan two he dialed back his early statements that Todd seemed hysterical did he dial back his black
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eye well he began to imply that as he thought about things more after this event that he says Todd seemed to be
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completely in control and perhaps he was putting on an act people started to whisper that Todd wasn't injured or at
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least wasn't as injured as he should be let's get into who is Cameron Todd Willingham let's take a look at this and
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but when we discuss his character one thing I want everybody to try to keep in mind it might get a little
00:26:14
difficult it's important to remember that just because Todd was not likable and in my humble garage opinion a bad
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person that does not mean that he is guilty of murder right just because you're a boner
00:26:29
face doesn't mean you're a murderer Cameron Todd Willingham was born in Ardmore Oklahoma on January 6 1968. his
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mother had several children with different men she left when he was an infant and he ended up being raised by
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his father Gene and his stepmother Eugena Gene was an ex-marine who ran a very strict household Todd didn't always
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abide by the rules but he was very close with his stepmother Todd was a good looking kid with black hair and a big
00:27:02
strong frame but he didn't do well in school and he got in trouble and he dropped out of
00:27:09
school this in the 10th grade after dropping out of school he turns to petty crime and generally just being a hoodlum
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he was arrested a number of times this for things like driving drunk public intoxication carrying a concealed weapon
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stealing bicycles shoplifting attempted auto theft and burglary the old bike jacking Todd however was a
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charmer his probation officer Polly Gooden said that he was one of her favorite kids and one juvenile judge who
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sentenced him to probation said quote he just did stupid crap like steel bikes right quote
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it was just an old [ __ ] turd in quote well Todd met Stacy kaikendel and Corsicana Texas when he was just 20 and
00:28:04
she was a senior in high school a Corsicana was a used to be oil town of 24 000 residents and really this area has
00:28:15
fallen on hard times at the time of our story Stacy was from a troubled home when she
00:28:22
was just four years old her mother was strangled to death by her stepfather Stacy and Todd they hit it off and got
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serious fast he moved to Corsicana from Oklahoma to be with her Stacy got pregnant and gave birth to
00:28:39
Amber and then again later giving birth to the twins right Todd Willingham was only 23 when he
00:28:47
found himself saddled with a girlfriend and three kids under the age of three years old and he had one killer mullet
00:28:56
yeah that's right he had a mallet that won awards in different states well he and Stacy Stacy was a a little
00:29:05
bit younger than him uh got married a few months before the fire by all accounts including Todd's own
00:29:14
admissions years later he treated her very badly not only did Todd cheat on Stacy but he drank way too
00:29:23
much and he would leave for periods of time again though I mean this might prove
00:29:30
that you're a bad person or a douche canoe or whatever but that doesn't mean you're a murderer
00:29:35
well he loved to play darts uh he was known to flirt with a lot of women and again often drinking a lot well again to
00:29:44
be fair I told you about the mullet so chances are they were flirting with him well I'll tell you what I actually
00:29:50
camped it I think that you see this a lot when boys in their early 20s just aren't ready to be men yet they they've
00:29:58
signed up willingly for grown men responsibilities but due to immaturity they ultimately end up pooping in their
00:30:05
big boy pants and not being a real man at all real Stinky Pants yeah well Todd and Stacy's relationship was volatile to
00:30:13
say the least when the fire occurred Todd was laid off from work and acting as a stay-at-home dad while Stacy worked
00:30:21
at her Brother's Bar to support the family on top of all of this Todd was physically abusive to Stacy the police
00:30:30
were called to their place more than once they there were even rumors he tried to
00:30:37
induce a miscarriage when she was pregnant with the twins by kicking her in the stomach
00:30:42
one neighbor this guy just gets better and better well that that's a rumor but we know the physical abuse was in fact a
00:30:50
truth right but if he didn't stop the physical abuse while she was pregnant then that seems like the rumor sounds
00:30:58
true even if he wasn't kicking her in the stomach if he's abusing her while she's pregnant that can cause a
00:31:04
miscarriage one neighbor called the police saying that they could hear Todd hitting Stacy and yelling at Stacy
00:31:12
saying get up [ __ ] and I'll hit you again but Stacy said that Todd would never
00:31:19
hurt their kids much less deliberately kill them she said that he lived for his girls and
00:31:26
he spoiled them rotten let's point out that the girls autopsies showed no evidence of any physical abuse
00:31:34
right but this was inconsequential in the minds of many as Corsicana resident Vicki Prater put
00:31:43
it to Frontline about the community turning against Todd she said quote Todd Willingham had not treated his family in
00:31:52
a respected manner so he didn't get the benefit of the doubt that some people would have
00:31:59
prosecutors weren't sure what Todd's motive would be to murder his children there were life insurance policies on
00:32:09
the children but they were purchased by Stacy's grandfather who he was the beneficiary of a grand total of fifteen
00:32:19
thousand dollars right but I think the one of the things that you have to look at when you're looking at motive here is
00:32:27
we have a very poor family living in a poor area in a poor house right before Christmas
00:32:36
depression is you know is higher up during these times suicide rates are higher up during these times they're
00:32:43
paying bills that are late on they're shopping at the Goodwill store to for Christmas they have three mouths to feed
00:32:51
he has no job You could argue that by setting the fire and ending their lives that this is his
00:33:00
way out you know he he's like you said he signed up to put his big boy pants on and all
00:33:06
he's been doing is [ __ ] in them so now it's going well let me take these big boy pants off and this is how I can
00:33:11
do it yeah basically I mean we have a situation here where Todd's not going to benefit financially from
00:33:20
the deaths of these children except of course that he would no longer have any Financial Obligations right for these
00:33:28
three children as well the district attorney Pat Bachelor attributed the alleged murders to quote
00:33:35
the children interfering with his beer drinking and dart throwing end quote after Todd was released from the
00:33:42
hospital he had burns on his hands face and neck one shoulder and singed hair and eyebrows
00:33:50
he and a friend arrived at the burned out home in a truck blasting loud music this two picked through the wreckage for
00:33:59
salvageable items Todd was observed to lament the loss of his beloved dartboard and some neighbors
00:34:07
said they could hear laughter and after a few days after the fire people in the community held a dark competition
00:34:14
fundraiser this to gather funds for the girls funerals Todd and Stacy attended this and as
00:34:20
Vicki Prater the fundraiser organizer put it Todd had too much fun for people's liking he asked the bar owner
00:34:29
to put aside a new set of darts for him Prater didn't want to have him spend the
00:34:35
community's donations on these darts so she took money out of her pocket giving it to him for the dart set right now
00:34:44
personally I I understand why they're trying to raise the money and all that stuff but
00:34:49
personally if it was me I I couldn't even attend something like that it would be very difficult but but what
00:34:57
we have is a situation here where there might be rumors and speculation amongst the community there's been no charges
00:35:03
brought forth right or forward yet now the rumors as stated started to swirl that Todd was heard saying that money
00:35:12
will start to roll in because people pitied him this of course did not sit well with any
00:35:19
of the locals police investigators on the case began to make note of circus circumstantial evidence against Todd
00:35:27
in police interviews Todd came across more as a patting himself on the back type for what he tried to do to save his
00:35:36
children the lead investigator Jimmy Hensley said to Frontline quote Todd didn't show any
00:35:42
remorse through the interview until I actually showed him the pictures of his children at that time he started crying
00:35:49
you know I don't think he was sad so much that he killed the kids as much as that it's coming to light that you know
00:35:57
he's a suspect in it this is awful tragedy but we don't know how somebody is going to react first of all we have
00:36:05
rumors and reason to believe that this guy's character Todd's character it was like you said before is of that
00:36:13
of a [ __ ] stain so he's just going back to that original character again that does not mean that he
00:36:21
is um responsible but once you kind of you know place his character with the evidence that this
00:36:30
fire was started by somebody this is what leads to his arrest right fire started by somebody who Todd
00:36:38
admittedly says was in the home before the fire started right so he is arrested and this was by a SWAT team on January 8
00:36:48
1992. he was held on one million dollars Bond while a grand jury was convened to
00:36:54
consider an indictment against him an indictment for capital murder came down on February 13
00:37:02
1992. Todd couldn't afford a defense attorney so a team was appointed to him this consisted of David Martin a former
00:37:11
state trooper and Robert Dunn a local defense attorney who handled all types of cases
00:37:18
Todd was adamant that he had not set the fire and he did not kill his children he
00:37:24
was also adamant about his innocence that when the prosecutor offered Todd a chance to plead guilty to avoid the
00:37:32
death penalty Todd refused to accept this deal his father and stepmother even visited
00:37:38
him and begged him to take this deal but Todd would not budge saying quote I ain't going to plead to something I
00:37:46
didn't do especially killing my own kids end quote well at this point his own lawyers see the evidence and say look
00:37:54
there is a lot of evidence against you or at least pointing in your direction and I believe they advised him to to
00:38:02
take the deal as well 100 and very likely they probably shared the evidence with his parents asking them hey we
00:38:09
can't talk sense into this guy right you go talk to him at the very least as his
00:38:15
representative because that's one thing we've talked about in other cases like when the guy that had to that had the
00:38:23
horrible responsibility of Defending John Wayne Gacy in court yeah he said you know 30 years later he's he says
00:38:32
basically what you have to do what your responsibility is when you go into a situation like this and you believe your
00:38:40
client to be guilty and John Wayne Gacy of such horrible crimes Todd Willingham of the deaths of his
00:38:47
three children horrible crimes at the very least to provide your client with some form of service your job is to
00:38:57
at least make it so that the state does not execute your client well in this case reminds me a lot of like the Chris
00:39:04
Watts case the family went missing they couldn't find the family so all of a sudden you
00:39:11
have the husband acting suspicious right but nobody really wants to to blame the
00:39:18
husband and in this case there's this awful fire these kids die in the fire or you know right before
00:39:26
Christmas the the husband's acting a little strange and you don't want to blame him now
00:39:33
we're to the point where he's arrested and everybody's looking at the evidence and looking at his character and going
00:39:38
hey take this deal you know and at least you you won't be executed yeah the the trial State versus Willingham commenced
00:39:49
on August 18 1992 and it lasted just three days surprisingly the prosecuting attorney was assistant
00:40:00
D.A John Jackson The Honorable Buck Douglas presided in Jackson's opening statement he told
00:40:08
the jury that Todd Willingham poured a combustible liquid on the floor of the kids room and then poured more of that
00:40:15
same liquid in the hallway and out the front door he then stood by and did nothing as the heat flames and smoke
00:40:24
killed his three children in his own opening statement Todd's attorney David Martin rebutted that
00:40:32
statement saying quote the state's theory in the case is the most unexpected unproppable unreasonable
00:40:39
scenario that we can imagine and quote he argued that the state's case was entirely circumstantial
00:40:47
now in a surprise move the state called its first Witness was convicted felon his name Johnny Webb
00:40:56
age 22. it just sounds like a convicted felon old Johnny Webb well he was a career criminal and a crack addict who
00:41:06
was in the Navarro County Jail at the same time as Todd this is in January and February of 92.
00:41:15
Webb was in on robbery and forgery charges he suffered from Psychiatric disorders and was on various medications
00:41:25
when asked on direct examination whether he had quote any trouble with mental impairment or anything like that he
00:41:32
responded not always Webb testified that he met Todd while in jail and one day while the two were
00:41:40
standing on either side of a glass partition that had a slot for you know like the meal tray so that can come
00:41:48
through they would stand there and where the slot is they could actually talk to
00:41:53
each other communicate through that spot because of the slot Todd broke down he says Todd broke down
00:42:00
on this one day crying and during this time that he's crying he confesses to Johnny that he in fact did kill his kids
00:42:09
the story Todd told Johnny Webb according to Webb's testimony was this Todd came home and found one of the
00:42:16
girls severely injured perhaps even dead because of something that Stacy did to the child
00:42:24
Todd decided that the way to get out of this situation would be to set a house fire
00:42:31
he took some lighter fluid and squirted it all around on the walls and the floors
00:42:37
in a pentagram pattern and then lit it but first he lit some newspaper and burned one of the kids on their arms and
00:42:47
forehead this to make it look like they had been playing with fire and that that
00:42:53
set the fire he says then he ran out of the house and refused to re-enter the home
00:43:01
now according to Webb this whole spontaneous confession thing went down in an area that was in full view of
00:43:09
guards and other prisoners and right underneath microphones connected to the intercom system that was monitored by
00:43:17
prison staff and Webb had only met Todd less than a month before Todd denied involvement in
00:43:25
the fire to anyone and everyone including Webb yet all of a sudden he decided to unburden himself to this
00:43:34
stranger yeah I never trust these jailhouse snitches well it in this situation anyway it defies belief to me
00:43:44
I agree but often in these cases when somebody from prison snitches on somebody else and they use them in a
00:43:51
trial the prosecution was able to like gift them something so basically pay them for their confession
00:43:59
yeah that I mean it's a it's a favor for a favor essentially the problem on top of that in this specific incident is
00:44:08
that this confession should have been heard by somebody else or recorded on top of him just telling this other
00:44:18
uh jail mate right before Webb left the Stan Jackson the prosecutor asked him Johnny have I ever
00:44:26
promised you anything in return for your testimony in this case to which Johnny answers no sir you have knocked now
00:44:33
let's make sure that we remember Johnny Webb's testimony the next State's witness was Diane
00:44:42
Barbie the neighbor who called 9-1-1 right she testified that she ran down the street saw the burning house and
00:44:49
Todd on the porch and that he was screaming then she stated that he started screaming whenever we came
00:44:57
outside she said the house was not in Flames but that smoke was coming from down low
00:45:05
she admitted that when she ran to find a neighbor to call 9-1-1 she was gone maybe six minutes
00:45:12
she said Todd was hysterical hollering and all but he managed to tell her that Amber had woke him up and then jumped
00:45:21
off the bed and he couldn't find her in the black smoke she said that while Todd ran back and
00:45:28
forth between the house and the yard a few times she couldn't get him to go back in to save the girls
00:45:36
another neighbor this is Mr long arrived and just then the house blew up the heat was so intense Diane could feel
00:45:45
it from where she stood in the Daniel's yard this is the yard between hers and the willinghams right she could hear
00:45:53
electricity popping she said she said she could not tell whether Todd was injured but he had black soot all over
00:46:01
his arms and back and his hair and eyelashes were burned Todd pushed his car back from the house
00:46:09
about eight feet down the driveway and then sat down across the street on the curb the fire trucks arrived at 10 26.
00:46:19
the next morning Diane testified a small group gathered at the burned house including Todd a Boombox was blasting
00:46:27
music from someone's truck but they turned it off when they saw her that night Todd and Stacy came by and Stacy
00:46:34
was crying and they were discussing that a neighbor was taking up a collection and Todd and Stacy had bought some
00:46:42
clothes for Amber this presumably to bury her in Todd said to Stacy in front of Diane
00:46:50
that he tried to go back into the burning house Diane's daughters both testified that
00:46:56
they did not see Todd try to go into the burning home that he did not appear injured and that he appeared more
00:47:04
concerned about his car John Bailey the neighbor across the street testified that the day after the
00:47:11
fire he saw Todd and Stacy going through the debris he said quote it was not the
00:47:17
attitude of people that just lost their children should have had but that's a case in so many cases as people go well
00:47:24
they're just acting different than I would and so therefore that means they're guilty in those
00:47:31
people's eyes it's it's kind of strange that people do that constantly he goes on to say that it was more of a laughing
00:47:38
cut up type of attitude Jerry Long another neighbor stated that during the fire Todd didn't seem quote
00:47:46
real excited he would holler about his kids and then stop and look himself over as if to see
00:47:54
whether he was injured long denied that Todd had cried at all but on cross-examination by David Martin he
00:48:02
admitted that in an earlier statement to police he had attested that Todd had been crying
00:48:08
he also said that Sparks and popping sounds were coming from the utility pole where the wires met the house and that
00:48:17
Todd commented to him that they had some trouble with the electricity one of the
00:48:23
first responding firefighters testified that when he arrived Todd approached him
00:48:27
and told him that his babies were in the house he could see that the front rooms of the
00:48:33
house were Ablaze including the floors and the porch he entered the home through the front
00:48:39
door and noted that the back door was blocked by a refrigerator the Twins were on the floor in the front
00:48:48
bedroom burned Beyond any possibility of survival on the stand this firefighter referred
00:48:54
to the Willingham home as the crime scene and Martin moved for a mistrial but the judge denied his motion
00:49:04
he also denied Martin's motion to exclude the inflammatory photos of the two charred infants corpses introduced
00:49:12
into evidence by the prosecution the firefighter whose last name is Franks continued to testify he said that at the
00:49:20
scene on the day of the fire Todd did not exhibit any symptoms of smoke inhalation Franks also said that when he
00:49:28
was at the scene after the fire to collect evidence Todd was also there and was looking through the house for his
00:49:34
Dart set and was quite upset about not being able to find it right Ethel Baptist a nurse who was on duty at
00:49:43
the hospital testified that Todd did a lot of crying and saying that he should have died with his girls it should have
00:49:52
been him instead of them she saw only small burns on Todd on his hands and back and his hair and eyebrows
00:50:00
and lashes were singed on cross Martin asked her if she knew that Todd had soot in his nasal cavities and throat she
00:50:12
said she was not aware of this but when pressed admitted that one would get soot
00:50:17
in these areas after breathing in Smoke after carefully setting up the narrative
00:50:23
that Todd Willingham was self-centered calculated violent psychopath who wanted his kids
00:50:31
out of the way so he could pursue various recreational activities prosecutor John Jackson called Douglas
00:50:38
Fogg the fire investigator to the stand Fogg testified that investigators could not find any accidental causes of the
00:50:48
fire including gas leaks and no electrical shorts he said the space heater was off nope
00:50:55
they checked this days after the fire so technically anyone could have turned it
00:51:00
to the off position correct the glass windows were examples of crazed glass which can be caused by fire burning
00:51:10
and accelerant the fire seemed to burn low to the floor rather than high up there was a puddling
00:51:17
effect on the floor in the hallway and in the kids room indicating a liquid was poured
00:51:23
the floor was burning underneath the metal threshold plate at the front door this indicating the presence of an
00:51:30
accelerant the wood under the aluminum threshold and a melted charcoal lighter fluid container tested positive for
00:51:39
quote mineral spirits of kerosene this accelerant the the kind that would be found in charcoal lighter fluid
00:51:49
wood fires don't burn hotter than 800 Degrees and the degree of damage to the aluminum threshold piece shows that this
00:51:57
fire burned hotter requiring an accelerant and the burn V patterns and puddling showed that the fire was started in
00:52:05
three different locations accidental fires don't start in three different locations
00:52:12
fogg's testimony was backed up by Manuel Vasquez the state arson investigator he bragged on the stand that he
00:52:21
investigated 1200 to 1500 fires and quote most all of them had turned out to be arson and that he never knew of a
00:52:29
time when he was wrong he said he knew the fire was arson from his investigation of the scene but also
00:52:37
because Todd had told him a story of pure fabrication if Todd had really looked for his
00:52:44
children in the burning home his feet would have been burned and he did not appear to have any signs of smoke
00:52:52
inhalation when Vasquez spoke with him days after the fire over objections from the defense
00:53:01
attorneys Vasquez was permitted to answer a question from the prosecutor based on your investigation and our
00:53:10
examination of the scene in your conclusions can you tell what the arsonist intended to do by setting this
00:53:18
fire his response yes his intent was to kill the little girls the state presented the
00:53:25
two Pathologists who performed the autopsies they testified that the girls died of carbon monoxide poisoning from
00:53:33
smoke inhalation they also said that because of the charred nature of the kids bodies it
00:53:40
would be difficult to determine whether there were any surface injuries to the kids that predated the fire
00:53:47
but that they did not observe any internal injuries or broken bones an ER doctor testified that Todd had
00:53:56
first degree burns on his face and neck a small second-degree burn on his right shoulder and a blister burn on his
00:54:03
middle finger on his left hand he also had soot present in his nose and in the back of his throat with a slight
00:54:11
cough but his carbon monoxide level was only three percent this consistent with being a smoker which Todd was and with
00:54:21
all this damning evidence against Todd this is where the prosecution will rest [Music]
00:54:32
want to remind everybody to check out our other show it's a great show it's sometimes it's funny sometimes it's
00:54:38
mystery sometimes it's more True Crime you never know what you're going to get this week for the people that listen to
00:54:44
off the record on Stitcher premium they got to hear me and the captain talk about what we call the serial killers of
00:54:51
Comedy check out Stitcher premium off the Record yeah the Lopper you get to hear about the Lopper thanks
00:54:58
for joining us in the garage and be kind to everybody that's right you better be
00:55:02
kind also be good and don't litter thank you [Music]