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[Music] [Applause] [Music] welcome to True Crime garage wherever you are whatever you are doing thanks
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for listening I'm your host Nick and with me as always is a guy that would like to remind everyone entering the
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garage that there's a $5 charge for whining he is the captain and there is a $1,000 charge if you're the colonel it's
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good to be seing and it's good to see you thanks for listening thanks for telling a
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[Music] friend fresh out the fridge we have you're a good man Charlie Brown Ale by
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with roasted maltz and features Aromas of toasted caramel it's brewed with English ale yeast for a nice crisp and
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classic finish and today's beer was brought to us by these classically awesome friends right here first up we
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have Meredith in Spring City Tennessee yeah if I created a beer it would be called use a piece of [ __ ] Charlie Brown
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Next up we have Kelly in St Petersburg Florida and a nice jiby jib jib to Cheryl and Henderson Nevada next we have
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Connie and Parts Unknown we have Miss Myra in nowheresville and last but not least we have have Michelle who I'm
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guessing is in Springfield because she recommends Mother's Brewery which I I'm almost certain Captain we have
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recommended them before on this show I believe so my kind sir thanks everybody for filling up the fridge for this
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week's show and make sure you check out the store Page cuz we have the Zodiac hoodies you have to order them by the
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7th they ship out on the 14th so yes you should receive them by Christmas and that's enough of the business everybody
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gather around grab it share grab a beer let's talk some true crime [Music] [Music]
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[Music] many have told the story of Edmund keer but you've never heard it quite like
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this before most of the information in this case is well known but I will lay some of it out
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here Edmund ail keer III was raised by a mother that even when he was just a small boy she very likely hated him
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Edmond liked to play death ritual games with his sister he tried living with his father
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but he didn't want him either he grew to be a large man and extremely intelligent Ed was about 6' 9 in tall
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and his IQ near genius level some call him the ogre of apus as an adult he was convicted of the
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mutilation slayings of eight women was this hulking monster born evil or was he made
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evil this week we will study Edmund and those who have studied him before we will try to learn about the angry little
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boy that lives inside this giant homicidal man this is a look at the murderous Madness of Edmund keer The Co-Ed Killer
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well I'm not an expert I'm not an authority I'm someone who has been a murderer for almost 20 years can you say
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how many people might be doing crimes like you were doing it would be a guess but it's not it's far more than 35 it
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isn't that impossible in this Society it happens are there more people they didn't give
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up how many he she didn't give up I did I came in out of the coold and what I'm saying is there are
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some people who prefer it in the cold you were able to appear like a ordinary person non-threatening to I lived as an
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ordinary person most of my life even though I was living a parallel and increasingly sick life other life one
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victim let me back in the car I locked myself out she opened the door for me my gun was under the seat what in the
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hell am I doing telling you that am I looking am I am I a masochist am I looking to be tormented further
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I'm trying to show you just how awful this got how commanding these rages [Music]
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got the True Crime garage Army loved the hit series mind Hunter the show based on
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the real life events of the Genesis of the FBI Behavioral Science unit housed at FBI headquarters in Quantico Virginia
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on mind Hunter the main characters Holden Ford and Bill tench are essentially the dramatized on-screen
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versions of famous real life FBI agents John Douglas and Bob wrestler like on the show in like in real life these
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agents worked in a special unit of the FBI that had many objectives but two of the most important were helping local
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law enforcement agencies solve crimes and studying the new phenomenon at the time which was the realization of the
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significant increase of stranger on Stranger crimes serial offenders and serial killers which are both terms now
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often used but back then serial offender and serial killer were new terms both coined by the special agents working
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with this unit at the FBI this week we will be discussing serial killer Edmund keer who spent a lot of time talking
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with the FBI over the years the general topics of discussion who was he what crimes did he commit and why the first
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series of M Hunter features some of these dramatizations of these talks with keer
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and the FBI now we both watched season 1 and loved it and one thing we have discussed on our show off the Record and
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I say this almost shamefully Captain we both loved actor Cameron Britain as seral killer Edmund keer heck sometimes
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during breaks we when working we would stop the show and we both were doing keer impressions I particularly like the
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scene when they were talking about the horrible murders keer has committed and he's offering the agents another slice
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of pizza now this is disturbing on several levels because while I'm watching the show and thinking to myself
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I could listen to Ed keer talk for days then the realization comes back to you kicks you in the teeth with the reminder
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that Ed keer was a despicable human being he's a monster and yet I find him somewhat charming and some might be
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saying well that's the TV version of Ed Colonel and it is but if you and we have
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watched interviews with the real Ed camper it's very similar so we felt bad about that but we're not alone in our
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liking of the TV version of keer because actor Cameron Brittain did win an Emmy for his work on the show yeah well on
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some of the lines that they use in the show are direct lines from the interviews that were recorded so let's
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go to the real life version of The Genesis of the FBI's Behavioral Science unit and case study of Edmund keer now
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interviewing serial killers so it was it was John Douglas that suggested to Bob wrestler that since there were so many
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serial killers locked up that they should start talking to them to see if they would talk about what they had done
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and why they believed that they did it one just like you hear earlier with the pizza offering the pizza the FBI would
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offer them a special meal like hey if you interview with us we can get you a pizza or we can get you some specialty
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sub or something that you can't get in prison well Bob westler agreed with Douglas and they decided that they were
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going to start interviewing these guys and actually they decided that while they were in California helping law
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enforcement to start there because as we all know from the various cases we have
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covered here in the garage California has certainly had its more than fair share of weird crimes and serial killers
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yeah so this was 1978 and they're going to go interview their first serial killer and they decided to start with ED
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keer ED was housed at the California medical facility in Vacaville California they decided their best method of going
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about this was to show up unannounced and without permission from the FBI and without giving the prison prior notice
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as well so this is for two reasons one the FBI believes these guys believed the FBI would have told them no you can't go
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around interviewing serials right and two they also believed if the meeting was scheduled with the inmate that the
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inmate would likely be considered a snitch by the other prisoners thus possibly putting their subject in danger
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and making them far less likely to cooperate in agree to these interviews so if they showed up unannounced the
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other inmates would just assume that they simply were investigating a case or investigating something or other now we
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have to consider how terrifying this could be even for federal agents first they can't go in there with their gun or
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weapon you know they don't want those things working their way into the you know population right and second they
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have to sign waivers agreeing that if they were to be Tak hostage at any time that they understood that they would not
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be bargained for well and both of these men they're going to go in as a pair so both of these men are trained but Ed is
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also 69 that's a big boy yeah basically locked alone in a room with a 6'9 in tall almost 300 lb man and then another
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thing that Douglas was concerned about was the IQ of Edmund keer now I got be honest with you here Captain I've seen
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this IQ kind of all over the shop I've seen it listed as high as 146 and as low as 131 yeah or
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31 well I I do know that he was tested at least twice so that might be the cause of some of these uh variations I
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also understand that there's multiple versions of the what we would just call the IQ test which could give a different
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score score so to speak so kind of like credit scores there's different top levels of different credit scores yes
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and so we have Douglas who he thought to himself and I'm sure he discussed this with wrestler in advance he was a little
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worried that you know these guys are used to being the smartest guys in the room and now they're in there with this
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giant and they're worried that he's smarter than them you know so physically he could overpower them mentally he
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might be able to manipulate them or to [ __ ] them to put it quite Frank right but like I said both these guys
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are trained individuals these guys have made it to the FBI so they've dealt with
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some of the scum of the earth mhm oh yeah so they're going to I mean but just imagine if you're not trained at all
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right some of these police officers have taken criminals that have done heinous crimes and they had to lock them up uh
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handcuff them put them in the backseat of their car and transport them to another prison or to another jail
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by themselves mhm and so yes this is U this sounds crazy to us to go hey you're going to go into this little still cage
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with this uh killer but but I also think these guys are are a lot tougher than uh
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that maybe he gave them credit for well you and I discussed um wickline which was a somebody that was put to death
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here in in Ohio for a couple of murders yeah and wickline was a large man he was
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he was quite strong as well and he was intelligent too um he was not as big as Edmund keer his IQ was probably not as
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high as Edmund Keers and and he was a guy that you know we spoke to several officers that said I knew guys that had
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to transport him I knew guys that had to be in a room with Wick line and they told they went to their superiors and
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advance and said I refuse to be alone with him right if I'm going to be in a room or in a car with this guy there
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better be multiples uh you know there better be a bunch of good guys and only one Wick line so the thing with uh you
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know and like you said these guys are trained these guys are skilled individuals Douglas was a um I believe
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he was a boxer in in college you know so so a bit of a tough guy I guess yeah I mean this look if you're a trained boxer
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and then you have to you had to deal with the scum of the earth those guys aren't they're not afraid of this guy
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but keep in mind just the reach alone on Ed keer I mean 6'9 yeah but you know the
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difference between a normal human and a and an actual trained boxer like the anytime somebody says hey I I
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trained as a boxer you don't want to fight that guy right that guy knows how to throw a punch the thing though too
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that that's tough for us regular civilians to get over is just the idea of forget about his size or his
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intelligence but just the idea of being in a room with somebody that you know is
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not only capable of murder but according to the case File it tells you that he enjoyed it yeah and I'm not trying to
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put a damper on this but I also think some of the psychological um Warfare on this is you
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know Ed 69 he kills women mhm you know what I mean like it's not like he just killed anybody and
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everybody right you mean you mean he's not like like Russell Crow entering the uh Coliseum Lions yeah are you not
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entertained are you not entertained so the John Douglas and Bob wrestler they were interested really and
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truly in anything that keer wanted to tell them but per the units study they were primarily interested in getting
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answers to the following questions one what leads a person to become a Serial sexual offender and what are the early
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warning signals two what serves to encourage or to inhibit the commission of his offense three what types of
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response or coping strategies by an intended victim are successful with what type of sexual offender and avoiding
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victimization four what are the implications for his dangerousness prognosis disposition and mode of
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treatment all right so question for you because if you watch mine hunter they don't really have have questionnaires or
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really much of a objective at the beginning or that's at least what the show portrays MH so do you think that
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this was the first the first things that they're trying to get answered and then that
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developed more later um I think that probably that between the two of them John Douglas and Bob wrestler that this
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was their primary goal right from the onset of everything right I just don't think that they put pen to paper to come
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up with an effective strategy so according to the show the TV show and what I think we can kind of infer from
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the show is like you said they come up with basically a questionnaire hey here's kind of a script to not share
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with the subject but between the two of you you know that you're working to get answers to these set of questions right
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but that script happened once they got a doctor involved correct and I think what
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that the whole Genesis of that would be and where the smarts of that comes into play is these guys were extremely busy
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and what I mean by that is when this first started they weren't being paid to or their superiors didn't even
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understand that they were out interviewing these serial killers they were actually supposed to be there on
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other business they're training local law enforcement agencies on how to detect and deduce certain crimes they're
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also working with local law enforcement agencies to actually solve crimes so while they happen to be in the
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neighborhood so to speak they're like okay well what prison is nearby and who is locked up for life or you know and
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let's go talk to them yeah and both of these guys were also original members of New Kids on the Block so they had a lot
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of stuff going on so most of the time in the beginning until they got their um grant
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money they were doing this on their own time in the evenings and on the weekends
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so I think the script and I think putting together a list of actual questions is really just a way to
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maximize their time and their efficiency while they're there talking to them you've watched plenty of interviews with
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Ed keer you you know it's obvious he can just talk and talk and talk and talk for
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hours and hours and hours when he graduated he was most likely to have a podcast in his high school class so the
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the interesting thing here though is you asked do you believe that these were were questions that they sought answers
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to right from the beginning yeah just because if I'm wrong it it made it seem like we don't know what to expect so
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let's just go in there and see if we could get him talking I think that's the truth I think that's the truth on some
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level we do know that this was their objective um because this was later released many years later this was after
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they got their grant money it's kind of too Champion their cause so to speak they released these sets of questions
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hey this is what we're looking for when we interview these guys in an FBI News Bulletin to the rest of their uh
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Department in their agencies I'm confusing real life with the TV show but also in this TV show wasn't the first
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meeting a solo meeting where he actually didn't go in with his partner well that's a dramatization in real life
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there were three individuals that sat down with Ed keer the first time um and I don't know the name of the
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other um officer involved and I and to be honest with you I think it was a local FBI agent you know Douglas and
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wrestler are not local to the area right I think that that FBI agent probably worked because they had not been in a
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prison yet and they didn't know that hey you could just walk up with and flash your FBI badge and most of the time that
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works to get into the prison right well cuz a lot of these prison guards or local officers had a lot of respect for
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the FBI well think about two of the questions that that they listed there within those four you know and they're
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all kind of lengthy questions if you really dissect them each one is actually multiple questions worked into one
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question right but the Simplicity of it is two things one what is the early warning signals of who this person could
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turn into to be I know the answer too much flicky flicky and then two this is interesting what can a victim do if you
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find yourself caught up with an individual like this a serial killer serial rapist what can I do to try to
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get myself out of this situation and behavioral wise you know are there things that I can say things that I can
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do are there actions I can take or reactions to this mad man that I can use to to save my own life and get me out of
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this situation right cuz what we've seen with Bundy you're going to see with keer
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you're going to see with other serial killers that they will have moments where everything you know this plan that
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normally takes place normally these serial killers it's like after the first attack or the second attack then they
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start going well this is how I'm going to do it this is my ruse to get them in my car then we go here then we drive
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this and then we do this and then I pull my gun on them and they kind of have a routine that they're building but
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there's also times where it's like uh my routine was to pick pick up a hitchhiker
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or my routine was to pick up a sex worker and they will do that and they just drop the individual off and there
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is no murder right so what made those different than the actual attacks the Simplicity of both of those questions
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and actually in my opinion almost all four of those questions is really early detection of a serial killer and
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preventing more loss of life you know we have how can a victim get out of this situation
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one as law enforcement you want a victim to get out of the situation not only to
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save their own life but to help you solve the crime help you make an arrest somebody that could later identify
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somebody that did something terrible to them or at least attempted to do so and then we have the early warning signals
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you know the early signs of of the creation of the serial killers if I could just interject for a second this
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has been on my mind all morning but we're talking about serial killer so it's it okay don't give me those eyes
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big shout out to Bill Burr the comedian I was watching his show last night his uh cartoon show on Netflix F is for
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family and there's a scene where he's arguing with this kid and he starts fighting the kid mhm and then the dad
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comes up and he's like what you what are you doing you're trying to fight my 9-year-old son what what are you some
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kind of [ __ ] right and then you notice that the guys name on his name badge that's fighting Bill Berg's
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character his last name is dmer and he's then he starts calling his son Jeffrey and the kid has blonde hair with
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the little glasses and I just thought I can't one I can't get away from True Crime but how clever it is that he just
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kind of threw it in there like I I wonder how many people watched that and didn't even know that it was Jeffrey
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dmer and True Crimes kind of seeped its way into all all different kinds of media well and the fact too that like
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the cartoon is based around that time period where Jeffrey dmer would have been a child okay okay well but a key
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thing to keep in mind when talking to these serial killer types um and we've touched on this a bit already is that
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they are often skilled manipulators and some of them quite intelligent which as is the case with keer so it was it was
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and is extremely important that the FBI agents know know the case inside and out
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in order to hopefully get the answers to the questions and to advance the FBI's ability to prevent detect and capture
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serial offenders and serial killers now the agents are going to want to learn everything they can about Ker's
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childhood environment relationships crimes habits and his arrest but they're going to want to know this in his own
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words right from his mouth and when we come back we will talk about some of the things that they
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learned you were involved in the campus because your mother worked there yes I was also involved in killing
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co-eds because my mother was associated with college work college co-eds women and had had a very strong and
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violently outspoken position on men for much of my upbringing my mother was a a sick angry
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hungry and very sad woman I hated her but I wanted to love my mother and I watched the alcohol increase I watched
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her social life drop off I watched her get bizarre she had terrible pain from her life earlier life her upbringing uh
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a failed marriage with my father I'm a constant reminder of that failure I hate to distill it down into such uh into
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onew realities like that there's a lot that leads into that happening but that is what happened they represented not
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what my mother was but what she liked what she coveted what was important to her and I was destroying it why did you
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actually kill the girls my frustration my inability to communicate socially sexually I wasn't
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impotent but emotionally I was impotent I was scared to death of failing in male
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female relationships I knew absolutely nothing about that whole area even if just sitting down and talking with the
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young lady I need to be able to really communicate and ironically enough that's why I began picking people up and I'm
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picking up young women and I'm going a little bit farther each time it's a daring kind of a thing at
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first there wasn't a gun I'm driving along we go to a vulnerable place where there aren't people watching where I
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could act out and I say no I can't and then a gun is in the car hidden and this craving this awful raging
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eating feeling inside I could feel it consuming my insides this fantastic passion uh it was overwhelming me it was
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like drugs it was like alcohol a little isn't enough at first it is and as you adjust to that psychologically and
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physically you take more and more and more it's the same process so it finally came down to the thing of do I dare
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bring this gun out already realizing if that gun comes out something has to happen Edmund Emil keer the was born
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December 18th 1948 in Burbank California now during his childhood keer was physically and emotionally abused by his
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alcoholic mother clarnell who was divorced from his father before the divorce Ed was close with his father
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after the divorce Ed's mother hated him and it's believed this is because Ed looked almost exactly like his father
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one of Ed's favorite games to play as a boy was a game that he invented in which
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he called it gas chamber or the gas chamber this would be a game that he played with his sister where they would
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take turns basically pretending to be gassed or gassing one another and then he would ride around pretending to be in
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pain on the floor as he's pretending to die because of this uh game that they were playing now why clarnell and Ed's
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two sisters slept upstairs she made her son at the age of just 8 years old sleep
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in the dark and cold basement alone at night this is likely that she did this for many reasons but the reason most
00:29:08
often cited for this treatment or abuse was she was afraid Ed would molest or rape one of his sisters so and we've
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heard in several interviews Ed describe this and he describes it in a way that makes you really realize
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how tormenting this was for him this was a form of some kind of psychological abuse because he was afraid to be in the
00:29:33
basement by himself right but there was there any evidence that he would do this
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or is this just a a madeup nonsense fear by his mother oh that he would rape or molest the sister right that's a really
00:29:48
good question and I've this is the thing that I've often wondered about because now let's say you're his mother
00:29:58
you're now in a situation where much later in life this is projected as being a form of abuse and torment that you
00:30:07
instilled on only one child out of three right you kind of signaled out this dude
00:30:11
singled out this dude and put him through hell and you know it's it's kind of like a Cinderella situation right
00:30:18
treat one bad and the other good well but you hit on something important here what if there is some type of evidence
00:30:26
that he would have molested Ed or maybe even raped his sister yeah then in a sense you're preventing the torture or
00:30:34
abuse of another of your children you see what I mean by putting him in the basement well right and you're not
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putting him out in a shed right but now this is also the 50s so the basement they're not what basements are now the
00:30:49
basement must have been terrible in the 50s right and the they're probably wet and I I heard also that he could hear
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rats possibly yeah so the thing when we talk about Edmund keer here that we should be completely clear about
00:31:04
regarding this story is that there has been variations of his childhood and variations of his story throughout the
00:31:13
years I do wonder what is fact and what is fiction after all these years have passed I do know from an interview that
00:31:22
he gave he described sleeping in the basement and described it simply as every night he would go down he you know
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he would he would walk down the stairs right so picture like an old rickety wooden staircase he would walk down the
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stairs and there was a single light at the bottom of the staircase and he would you know it has the string hanging from
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it he would reach up and he would pull the string to turn it on and then he said that that would only light up
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basically that corner of the basement right well he slept in the far Corner away from that so he would walk all the
00:31:58
way because he was afraid of being in the dark in the basement by himself well that was that's the age where your mom
00:32:04
says go get the a towel out of the basement you go okay and then you Brave the courage it's middle of the day and
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you turn on the light and then you grab the towel and now you have to turn off the light but you have to run up the
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steps cuz you're so afraid that something's going to grab you right so he would walk the length of the basement
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basically to the other end where there was another light hanging and he would put you know with a string and he would
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pull the string and turn that light on and then he would walk all the way back to turn off the light that was near the
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stairs and he there most reports and stories would say that he was locked in the basement every night I don't know if
00:32:46
that in fact is true because his own words state that he he was in charge of closing the the basement door uh he
00:32:54
actually references that he would get yelled at by his mom because of the the cold would seep up into the house uh if
00:33:00
he didn't close the basement door and she didn't want to feel the cold that's so nice of her I don't know
00:33:08
if he could hear rats you know that that's the other rumor was that he could hear the rats scratching around in the
00:33:13
night yeah or if that was just made up in his head yeah or or if it's just a story to make it worse than what it
00:33:19
actually was in all reality let's say there were no rats at the very least we have an 8-year-old boy somebody who's
00:33:27
very young um mentally young as well emotionally young sleeping by himself in a dark cold
00:33:34
basement to which it's so cold that he's required to shut the door so the cold doesn't seep into the rest of the house
00:33:41
and at the very least in the middle of the night he's going to hear the furnace turning on and off uh so there would be
00:33:47
noises that would probably startle him and wake him up or Scare him throughout the night right and on top of that why
00:33:55
are you there why are you in the basement if you know it's because your mother fears this then it's like and
00:34:03
again if there's no evidence that you're going to do this or even capable of doing that do you then become capable of
00:34:10
doing it because you are essentially being accused of being capable of doing it well the other thing too Captain is
00:34:16
it is no question that his mother was an alcoholic so there could be a skewed perception on her behalf as to what was
00:34:27
going on on in her home if she was drunk or under the influence a lot of the time
00:34:32
while she was home but keer did engage in psychotic and Psychopathic Behavior early on so he started off by
00:34:40
dismembering his sister's dolls uh this was all based around a violent fantasy that he would later tell us about uh
00:34:48
killing his mother and his sisters now one book describes this scenario pretty simply and something something like this
00:34:56
stating that as Ed sat awake in the cold dark basement at night and his hatred grew and grew he fantasized about
00:35:03
killing the females upstairs so right because he's less thin right and they've made him less thin but also just because
00:35:11
your son rips apart your daughter's baby you know or Barbie dolls I don't know if that's a sign of
00:35:19
anything the fact that he is stating that it was a replication of how he would murder his family now that's
00:35:27
that's a whole different level but a kid just ripping apart a doll that's sometimes boys will just be boys yeah
00:35:33
and he said that he started off by like popping off their heads you know so like
00:35:38
if you picture like a Barbie doll or any kind of doll they usually have like that
00:35:42
plastic head uh connected to a much stiffer stronger sturdier plastic body and he says you know he would get like
00:35:50
pleasure from hearing that that noise when he would pull the head from the body right well later he said that he
00:35:59
actually believes he even received some kind of or or got some kind of sexual arousal by doing this and look I'm just
00:36:05
going to put this question out now because we're going to be talking a lot about his viewpoints on things and again
00:36:12
this is this is also hindsight is he just making some of this stuff up later in life to make him seem more interested
00:36:20
I mean this is a guy that wants to talk he wants to be heard he wants people to listen to him are they more likely to
00:36:28
listen to you if you're coming up with these interesting scenarios mhm well and here's Captain where I think we should
00:36:36
probably drop a bit of a warning for the listeners um as we're going to get into
00:36:42
a couple of things that I know some people don't like to hear about and this is typical behavior of a lot of these
00:36:48
serial killers so some of you might want to just kind of fast forward about a minute minute and a half or so so one of
00:36:58
these behaviors that keer keer was showing us as a as a Young Man uh when he was a teenager early in his teen
00:37:06
years this included the torture and killing of animals now the family had two cats one of them he buried alive and
00:37:14
he later dug it up and would he stored the carcass of the cat in a closet in their house and then the second cat he
00:37:23
killed with a machete so this is a different situation much different one buried alive the other he's actually
00:37:29
physically attacking it with a machete to the point of he's getting blood on himself during the course of killing
00:37:35
this animal right but this is a huge step up from dismembering dolls yes and actually I found this quite interesting
00:37:44
some psychologists say that cats are the most killed animals by these young later
00:37:50
to be serial killers because of a couple of psychological reasons one most by far
00:37:57
most Sero killers are men and many have suggested that the cat on some psychological level is representative of
00:38:06
the female gender right and that a lot of these guys kill for their hate of a single female or of all of the gender
00:38:16
well I think you see this with uh dmer you also saw with the cat torture videos of Luca magnata AKA puka
00:38:25
NADA but in that area with the Luca magnata case his victim was was a male yeah and so that's that's why they
00:38:35
believe that cats are usually you know we see the torture of different animals we we certainly did when we talked about
00:38:41
BTK and as you mentioned several others but uh seems to be that cats are the most often killed by these guys now this
00:38:50
is a good time for us to introduce what the Mind Hunter guys would refer to as the homicidal Triad well hold on uh this
00:38:58
is a good time to apologize for people that we probably should have said 2 and 1/2 minutes fast forward 2 and 1/2
00:39:03
minutes so you probably caught that tail in and we're sorry about that yeah so the the homicidal Triad as the Mind
00:39:11
Hunter guys would later come up with this is after years of studying these serial killers and interviewing them and
00:39:18
coming up with and getting information straight directly from them um so these behaviors these three behaviors that we
00:39:27
would see time and time again in the childhood of these eventual serial killers are these three types of of
00:39:34
things one Fire Starting two bed weding and three cruelty to animals I'm a fire starter Twisted fire
00:39:45
star so um with Ed Edmund um is he wet in the bed is he making the wet basement wetter I don't know about wetting the
00:39:56
bed or Fire Starting but we do know he was doing the cruelty to animals but this is I mean throughout their studies
00:40:03
this is something that they would see enough to the point that they came up with a name for it the homicidal Triad
00:40:10
and this is something that they would see out of the serial killers where they would often exhibit one or two or all
00:40:20
three of these behaviors during their the course of their childhood well there's different levels too of like
00:40:25
pyromaniacs I mean when you're a kid especially a young boy and you get a a box of matches or you get a lighter
00:40:35
you're going to light every toy that you can on fire mhm but then sometimes you're hanging out with one of your
00:40:41
buddies and they're like to the extreme and I think that's kind of what they're talking about there's always going to be
00:40:48
somewhat of a Fascination especially with little boys playing with lighters or matches yeah yeah so people out there
00:40:54
listening shouldn't freak out if they've experienced some I would freak out if your son or daughter is doing the
00:41:02
cruelty to animals thing that seems to me to be a different level um but like you said some kids play with fire some
00:41:09
some kids wet the bed I mean right um and I don't know how much I think years later um I'm curious to see how much
00:41:17
they think the bed wedding is actually involved because it's not that's not a destructive behavior when you compare it
00:41:24
to the other two you know it's not a destructive Behavior at all did you have a wedding of the bed problem well but
00:41:30
they're talking about seems like you're defending this one no I'm not defending any of it what I'm saying is it they
00:41:37
what they mean by bed wedding is of of a considerable older age right you know if
00:41:44
you have a three-year-old kid and they're wet in the bed sometimes they're just a three-year-old kid right um
00:41:50
anyway it's what we do know is Edmund grew up to hate his mother and at the age of 14 he ran away from home this is
00:41:59
in search of his father and he finds his father in vanis California so when he caught up he was looking for a better
00:42:06
basement well when he caught up with his father his father had a new family and he didn't want Edmond staying with them
00:42:14
so keer said just him being around gave his stepmother migraine he headaches so he was shipped off to go live with his
00:42:24
father's parents on a 17 Acre Farm in North Folk California yeah but can you imagine though
00:42:32
okay let's say you're not well okay say you are married and then you bring your son around and your wife is saying I get
00:42:41
migraines this kid gives me migraines M you really going to pick this Looney Tune over your son well you got to keep
00:42:52
in mind he's already chose to not choose his son he's he's not been living with son he's already walked away from that
00:43:00
job and from that responsibility and that's why yeah but you also see I wonder what the actions were
00:43:08
between or what kind of relationship was there violence or anything between uh Ker's mother father what what was their
00:43:16
Dynamic like because if she is you know this alcoholic Looney Tune then you think on some level okay yeah I didn't
00:43:25
choose you then but hey things are probably pretty bad for you so maybe I should do something well he would have
00:43:32
had a good idea and when I say he I mean Edmund's father would had a good idea because I believe his and I don't
00:43:39
remember the exact words but something something similar to this he stated that being with clarnell with Edmund's mom
00:43:50
was worse than the time he spent fighting in the war and he was from my understanding like he referred to his
00:43:57
time in the war he was in in served I don't know which war it was but he served over a year in combat to what he
00:44:04
referred to as suicide missions and he said being with her was worse and more frightening than being in those suicide
00:44:12
missions see there you go so you would have to so you're you're a bit Yeah but well here's my point though it's worse
00:44:20
than a suicide mission and that's what you're putting your eight-year-old son through in his opinion yes and then when
00:44:26
your son finally shows up and leaves there and says look I didn't like living there so i' I I sought you out I came
00:44:34
and I found you I do have to give some some credit here um you know I'm not liking Edmond's
00:44:43
father at all I don't I don't see he sounds like a used a piece of [ __ ] I don't appreciate him not being around
00:44:50
for Edmund's childhood or for taking the responsibility of being a real father but what what I will give him credit for
00:44:58
is sending him to his parents' home rather than shipping him back to clar now all right so 's a piece of [ __ ] but
00:45:06
you a little less piece of [ __ ] because you sent them with your parents well he
00:45:11
probably figured hey if I can't raise you here then I'm going to look I turned out you maybe he considers he turned out
00:45:17
pretty fine and he maybe he has good fond memories of his childhood and thought well I'll send you to go live
00:45:23
with my parents can you imagine what this country would be like or what this world would be like if if every man
00:45:29
actually manned up and raised their kids well that's a big portion of of the study into the serial killers and why I
00:45:39
said that we'll take a look at this situation and try to figure out if Edmund keer was born evil or if he was
00:45:46
made to be evil because the very simplistic thought of a serial killer is this that they cannot have and and you
00:45:57
can email me you can hit me up on the blog you can do whatever you want but you it would be tough to convince me
00:46:03
otherwise for a person to knowing and willingly and plan out the murder of multiple people of multiple individuals
00:46:12
they cannot have the same or share the same emotions that quote unquote normal people have so why don't they have the
00:46:20
same emotions as we do what about is that excluding like soldiers well again that's that to me is a
00:46:30
different situation A Sero killer is a very um defined type of of person and killer okay where a soldier is a
00:46:39
different definition of a killer technically they both are still they both are killers but there are there
00:46:47
huge differences between the two so again why don't they so then the question then becomes why don't they
00:46:55
have the same emotions why don't they have the same responses as we would to their environments and to behaviors
00:47:04
around them into treatments that they're receiving and this when you go back and
00:47:10
you really get to probably the simplest form of this is does it start with being
00:47:17
a little baby and does it start with having a mother that didn't want you and having a father that wasn't there and
00:47:24
not developing those emotions and not of you know developing those uh behaviors empathy not developing empathy
00:47:34
at a very young age well and also not in that it doesn't always have to be that order sometimes it's the mother that
00:47:41
rejects them and the father is still around but he is just a not so such a great father MH so there I think you see
00:47:51
it happen multiple ways yes and and not all Sero Killers had a horrible time growing up a horrible childhood but some
00:47:59
of them did and I do understand that there are a lot of people out there that had bad childhoods because look if if
00:48:05
everybody out there that had a bad a quote unquote what they have determined to be a bad childhood right grew up to
00:48:12
kill people in the double digits in the you know 10 or more people yeah we would
00:48:17
be running out of people on this planet so it's I'm not saying it's an excuse it's more of a question of why and how
00:48:24
all right so his father ships him off to live with his parents yes on a 17 Acre Farm in North Folk California and it
00:48:32
seems like Ed got along well with his grandfather but not so much with his grandmother uh his grandmother was a bit
00:48:40
of a strict disciplinarian his grandparents got him a 22 rifle for Christmas for small game
00:48:49
hunting there are differing stories about what I'm about to tell you but the simple truth of it is this that on
00:48:56
August 27th 1964 15-year-old Edmund keer used his Christmas present to shoot his
00:49:05
grandmother in the back three times as she sat at the kitchen table typing afterwards he stabbed her three times
00:49:14
with a kitchen knife this is because he says that he didn't want her to suffer he wanted to end it for her as quickly
00:49:21
as possible the reason being for killing his grandmother he he's stated over the
00:49:27
years that there's been several reasons but the one that he cites the most often
00:49:32
is he wanted to see what it would feel like so his grandfather was out it was not home during the time when he killed
00:49:40
his grandmother and the reason why I say there are differing stories about this is
00:49:46
because there's the way that these stories go is either his grandfather was out in town
00:49:53
shopping and then returned home or he was out hunting and the Ed was mad that he could not go or upset that he could
00:50:02
not go hunting with his grandfather well if his grandfather in fact wasn't out hunting then we know he wasn't mad about
00:50:09
that right regardless when his grandfather returned to the home as Ed would describe it they had a brief
00:50:18
interaction where his grandfather waved to him you know he's getting out of his truck and he waves to him and like I
00:50:24
said it seems like the two of them had had a good relationship yeah and Ed waited till his grandfather turned his
00:50:32
back and he shot his grandfather he would later then hide the body in a closet and he said that he shot his
00:50:41
grandfather for reasons that all seem to stem from not wanting him to have discovered that that he had just killed
00:50:49
his grandmother yeah maybe not wanting him to see the body maybe not wanting him to be disappointed and and keer yeah
00:50:56
probably several things here so not wanting him to be angry at Ed or upset with Ed disappointed in Ed as you had
00:51:04
said or also at the the loss of life of his wife right you know his longtime companion the weird thing though here
00:51:11
Captain we've actually heard this with several other serial killers and and I'll reference
00:51:18
BTK uh as a prime example here is Edmond immediately felt like at any time a whole bunch of people were going to come
00:51:28
to get him like everybody in the whole world probably knew what he had just done and that they were going to come up
00:51:34
there they're going to arrest him they're going to attack him they're going to kill him any number of those
00:51:38
things right and we heard that with BTK Dennis Raider would say that often when he would go out and he would kill
00:51:44
somebody or kill multiple people he felt like in the first 48 Hours afterwards that the police were just going to show
00:51:51
up at any time at his door knocking and saying hey we know what you did Buddy now you're arrested it's like this
00:51:58
paranoia sets in yeah that's interesting and so Ed said that in that situation he was going to shoot and kill
00:52:09
anyone that would have approached the the farm or the house at that time that was his mindset at the time so we almost
00:52:18
have to count our blessings here in some form right because he's out on a 17 Acre
00:52:24
Farm out in kind of the middle of nowhere if he were in a major city when he had
00:52:30
done this can you imagine all the innocent people that weren't coming to get him that would have probably have
00:52:35
been killed that day I mean you even something as simple as the person delivering the mail right but then we'd
00:52:41
have a scenario where it would be he'd be a Mas murderer and they would have caught him and then the other the serial
00:52:49
killings would have never happened well that's tough to say that's tough to say not tough to say what I what I'm
00:52:58
assuming is that in the 60s 64 if you had a guy that went on a rampage going around killing people in a city that the
00:53:06
cops are going to come and arrest that individual yes but essentially isn't that what ended up happening and what I
00:53:15
mean by that is that okay so we get lucky that there's nobody else there and at some point his paranoia it it wears
00:53:21
off and he calls his mother and explains what he had done and he is going to be picked up like you said he gets arrested
00:53:29
for killing his grandparents right keer was committed to the ateso state hospital for the criminally
00:53:47
insane all right Captain I want to let everybody out there know I received a lot of great emails several people
00:53:53
asking about specific cases to cover uh mention a few of them here won the honey
00:53:58
and Barry Sherman case the ti Lewis case the Amy mahalic case and Laura spirior I
00:54:05
want to point out that we did cover all of these cases already and you can find all of our back catalog it's a huge back
00:54:12
catalog we're over 260 episodes strong now you can get our back catalog for free and listen to those cases on the
00:54:20
Stitcher app we also have a show on Stitcher premium called off the Record it's $5 a month and you get every
00:54:26
premium show on Stitcher premium all right we will talk more ed keer The Co-Ed Killer tomorrow back here in the
00:54:32
garage until then everybody be good be kind and don't litter [Music]