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00:01:23
[Music] 2023 [Music] this is true crime garage and this is part three of When a Killer
00:01:48
[Music] calls [Music] always very excited to have Mr John Douglas here with us in the garage this
00:02:15
is the third time that you've come and graced us with your presence and we are excited as we always are to chat with
00:02:23
you and today we're talking about your new book When a Killer caused this is a fascinating story from the mid 80s that
00:02:32
took place in South Carolina with a very a very horrific case and tragic case but
00:02:40
one that really not only will appeal to our listeners and appeals to me as kind of a
00:02:47
case study but the the criminal Larry Jean Bell just fascinating and absolutely bizarre his
00:02:57
crimes that he committed and the way that that he not just committed these crimes but
00:03:03
also emotionally tortured his victims and their families right Mr Douglas one thing that I found incredibly
00:03:11
fascinating about the details of your new book it really hones in on a lot of the communications that Larry Jean Bell
00:03:21
felt were necessary to him when committing the crimes that that he did and some Killers communicate with the
00:03:29
media some with law enforcement from your experience why do you think some choose to communicate with the media and
00:03:37
others choose to communicate with law enforcement oh yeah I've had cases uh I interviewed um dentist rator the BTK
00:03:44
Strangler and uh it it was just a they're all looking for power all these crimes are sense of power and control
00:03:52
and someone like uh denst Shater or the Zodiac it's U they want more than just local attention they want to National
00:04:01
National you know attention um in the case of that that I just wrote about when a killer calls I never really had a
00:04:09
case you know like this before uh because this the signature uh the that's an aspect of the case that is not
00:04:18
necessary to perpetrate the case but it's a need that the subject has and and his need was to sadistically torture the
00:04:26
families uh of Sherie F Smith uh there were two victims involved but Sherry face Smith giving him initially
00:04:34
false hope that uh that their daughter was still alive and then uh having the victim write a last will and testament
00:04:46
uh that he would mail to the family and Sheri F Smith is is now saying goodbye to her family it was just an
00:04:54
unbelievable family the religious and the faith you know that they had I mean it was
00:05:00
emotionally draining for me and everyone else involved you know in the uh in the
00:05:05
case uh but this guy this guy then uh after the last will in Testament he sets up these communications initially he's
00:05:15
disguising his voice and we send the uh the tapes of the FBI lab and they say he
00:05:20
has some type of a a monitoring device on the phone uh which began to tell us something about his background his
00:05:27
profile uh his his intelligence so he was changing his voice as a case went on after a period of time he stopped using
00:05:35
that uh that device because he was gaining confidence he just felt that he was uh not you know not catchable no one
00:05:42
would ever identify him but when this case kept evolving and kept going on and and on uh and then I'm working with the
00:05:52
families I'm working with a sister her sister named Dawn to use as a a bait really to get this guy to keep
00:06:02
communicating with us because the more he communicates the more we begin to learn about him but it was very
00:06:08
difficult in the 80s because we had to keep him on the phone for such a long period of time up to 15 15 uh minutes
00:06:15
before we can put a traps and Trace and he was well aware of that so I had work with the with the uh the sister of Sher
00:06:23
F Smith and basically kind of give it like kind of costage negotiating skills and and that is like uh paraphrasing
00:06:29
restate the content that he's trying to whatever he's telling you just keep like
00:06:35
uh confirming that you understand what he's saying but he was too sharp at that time he would he would bail on us but
00:06:43
one of the worst things about this I mean it was it was horrific was that the mother received some of the calls as
00:06:51
well as the sister Dawn and then the mother asked him the mother says that my daughter know she was going to die and
00:06:59
Belle says yes uh you know she did and I gave her a choice and she could pick uh
00:07:05
drug overdose gunshot or Suffocation and your daughter selected Suffocation and so what he did he proceeded to use duct
00:07:13
tape while she was alive and duct taped her her head and then he waits he waits days for the body to uh
00:07:21
decompose uh before he tells us tells the family through now Dawn the other the other sister where we can find find
00:07:30
Sher F Smith and the reason that began that tells you something about him too because he doesn't want to leave
00:07:36
anything forensically for us to determine like the cause of death to locate any kind of hair and fiber
00:07:42
evidence but what we could see is that and we we knew about the duct tape just by the evidence she uh uh her hair after
00:07:51
he duct taped her head he removed the duct tape because he didn't want to leave fingerprints on the duct tape and
00:07:58
he would end up cutting some of the hair on her head to to totally remove the duct tape from us so it was just it was
00:08:06
just an unbelievable case and and uh to to set up um uh he stopped communicating
00:08:12
with us that's that was a problem when I finally went down they stopped communicating with with the police uh
00:08:18
with the uh the family I had to get him to talk I had to get him to get back on the phone so I I sat down with the
00:08:27
investigative reporter and told the investigative reporter uh that I I wanted her to uh come up with a
00:08:35
story where Sher Fay is uh is buried we want to have a memorial service and uh I'm not going to write it for you I
00:08:44
can't do that as an agent but I want you make it poetic and we're going to set up
00:08:48
at the the grave site we're going to put a u kind of a lecturn a white lecturn with Sheri's picture on it and uh when I
00:08:57
was at the house I asked to see Sheri bedroom and Dawn her sister showed me the bedroom and and in the bedroom were
00:09:04
were dozens upon dozens of of koala bears and I started thinking in my brain what can I what can I do here what can I
00:09:12
do and I saw a small koala bear that was hanging from a string and I took that you pinch the shoulders and it opens up
00:09:18
and I'm thinking without telling anyone I'm going to use this at the gravite I'm
00:09:23
going to have Dawn who now he was targeting Dawn uh the other sister place that at the uh at the gravide on a
00:09:31
flower and the hope is uh Nick is that he will we will peque his curiosity because we do know from the research
00:09:39
that I conducted and my colleagues they like to collect souvenirs momentos relative to the to the crime so we did
00:09:47
all did all those things uh unfortunately from investigated perspective had no control over this uh
00:09:54
but she was buried very very close to the road if and he would not not take that kind of risk but we were monitoring
00:10:02
the vehicles and we would catch him another way but had we not caught them another way that we talk about in the
00:10:08
book we would we would have come across him eventually because we had we had his
00:10:14
license plate number he stopped along with other cars and we were recording all of those uh vehicles and from him
00:10:22
once we would do a say a criminal check you know on these people who were stopping we would find with him that he
00:10:27
had history he had criminal history of attempted abduction early on in his life he was involved in obscene telephone
00:10:35
calls he tried to abduct a nine-year-old girl besides a another teenager so we would have got him sooner sooner than
00:10:45
later but uh we got him other ways forensically one thing that I found incredibly fascinating and I love when a
00:10:52
a great book comes out on a case and particularly one that fits into this realm for me where this is a case that I
00:10:58
thought that I knew very well and then I read your new book When a Killer calls and figure out I only knew kind of the
00:11:07
tip of the iceberg here there's a lot to digest and a lot to take in from your new book now one thing I picked up while
00:11:14
reading is that it almost appears to me in some bizarre way and this is something I didn't know
00:11:21
before that Larry was in love or in his in his own bizarre way thought he was in
00:11:29
love with Sherry fa Smith now he he would say later on that he was stalking her he he came across her in a parking
00:11:37
lot and so he was kind of surveilling her and uh on that particular day of the abduction she was with her boyfriend
00:11:43
they just left a pool party and we would find out later on that he was in that parking lot he was watching them they
00:11:49
were kissing and then then U after that they said goodbye to each other her and her boyfriend um Richard and he tailed
00:11:58
her home he follows the home very very closely had she pulled into a driveway and pulled her vehicle up to the house
00:12:05
he never would have pulled into the driveway her house sat back about 200 yards from the mailbox she stops her
00:12:11
vehicle at the mailbox to check the mail and at that point in time is when he pulls up behind her his motus operand we
00:12:20
we knew he had a gun we later would find out he had a gun we we assume he would have something like that to gain that
00:12:25
kind of control he also had a a camera and he would take was taking pictures of her and he just comes across as a nice
00:12:32
guy the guy you know people they they look at criminals they think they could they look a certain way this guy looks
00:12:38
like your your nextdoor neighbor it could be any he could be anyone but once he got her uh close to to his vehicle
00:12:46
and that's when you know when he grabbed her uh but he had this this fantasy and
00:12:51
but the fantasy you see can only last a short period of time because from the point of abduction to the point of
00:12:56
killing uh her was only several hours several hours and and so he had to perpetuate this and that's why
00:13:04
then he shifted over to the sister and then uh first he was very very nice very very polite to her but then he goes out
00:13:12
and he abducts and kills a nine-year-old child who's playing in front of her her
00:13:18
uh residence uh the family just moved into this trailer park and she's out in yard very boldly pulls up in front and
00:13:25
grabs this nine-year-old child takes off with her get a description of the vehicle but not enough a good enough
00:13:32
description um to where we can identify him and he weits and waits and waits and
00:13:37
then he calls up the first family the Smith family and Dawn and he tells Dawn he says you know remember that Abduction
00:13:46
the other day that girl Deborah helmet and she say yes she says well he gives her these directions the directions
00:13:53
where we can find the body and like her sister he waited for the body to be in advanced stages of decomposition before
00:14:01
uh he gave us the location you know you know of her but all this began and we did a profile um the police department
00:14:11
lexend the police department it's tremendous tremendous Department both the the sheriff and the unders Sheriff
00:14:17
attended the FBI National Academy which is an 11we program and the FBI trains about a thousand police officers a year
00:14:24
worldwide and so they they took classes one of the classes they took was in in in my area in criminal profil and
00:14:31
criminal psychology like so many cops once they go back to their Department they'll think they'll never have a case
00:14:36
like this and sure enough here they get hit by this case and then they they contact us and we don't the for your
00:14:43
listeners um we don't always go out on cases in fact most of the cases are kind of older cases when we get them old dog
00:14:51
cases but if we're involved in a case where the the offender is killing and now he's killing again and you probably
00:14:58
want to kill kill one more time if we don't identify them we're going out it's just like in the Atlanta child killing
00:15:03
case I mean I was receiving calls early on developing an analysis but there was so many killings so now I have to go on
00:15:11
site I got I got to see for myself I work with the investigators you know on the you know on site so this department
00:15:19
they were they were very very very open uh to suggestions and to proactive techniques uh this is like 19 you know
00:15:27
85 uh in June uh 19 you know of my background uh in 1983 the end of 83 November December I nearly died on the
00:15:37
Green River murder case I just burned out had viral cytis and came home in in a a wheelchair so I really lost my
00:15:45
confidence and and I didn't know if I I would miss a beat and so by now in 1984 I'm get I nearly had to die before
00:15:54
I could get help so now now they give me they give me agents from the field who I'm selecting or good investigators to
00:16:02
train them but it takes a while to to train them so so here this case comes up now in mid mid 85 now I got to go out I
00:16:12
got to go onsite and provide onsite consultation I'm going to bring a relatively new agent good Agent but a
00:16:18
relatively new agent in my program you know uh you know with the you know with me uh the profile that we did turned out
00:16:27
to be very very accurate I think we we just missed the age we thought he'd be between the late 20s to early 30s he was
00:16:34
about 34 35 which isn't wasn't isn't bad everything else about him uh his we felt
00:16:41
he would have some kind of electrical background he was an electrici body type we felt he would be be a slovenly uh
00:16:49
type we felt he was obsessive compulsive reasoning for that is because you can tell when he was calling the family uh
00:16:56
he would follow a script if was asked a question in the middle of his his uh lecture to say to Dawn or the mother it
00:17:05
would throw him off so then he had to repeat had had to repeat himself and so he would would be this obsessive
00:17:11
compulsive types kind of a guy who you go you go into his garage you'd see you see uh he'd have outline where the
00:17:18
screwdriver hangs or where the the hammer hangs he would outline that and his clothes it would be very orderly and
00:17:25
uh in his closet and his personal appearance would the same or as a vehicle and we went we were uh we felt
00:17:32
guy like this could not have any kind of a uh normal relationship with women that
00:17:36
he probably was married previously married uh in the past which he turned out he was uh he was previously married
00:17:44
had had a a son the criminal history he had that as I mentioned earlier he had you know all of that so you can do the
00:17:52
profile but then you have to really you know in fact when I just when I retired from the bureau
00:17:59
and in the last couple of years I was kind of getting away from the demographic profil Nick I wanted more to
00:18:05
get into proactive techniques I wanted the public to know I wanted the public to know more about uh characteristics or
00:18:13
the behavioral patterns because if if you develop a profile then you release it publicly you're trying to develop
00:18:20
leads but say you missed the age you're saying the guy's a high school dropout guy may have a Col college degree but
00:18:27
everything else may fit well a person may say gee everything fits this guy who I know but the education is off but the
00:18:34
so I I was getting away from from that uh but focusing more on pre-f behavior and post- offense uh post- offense
00:18:43
Behavior what was the behavior leading up to the crime what would have happened to him after the crime like this case we
00:18:49
told the police he will be changing his personal appearance we believe uh which he did do and uh so things like that and
00:18:56
then what can I do uh to maybe cause the subject to inject himself into the police investigation to go to the grave
00:19:04
site I had to keep him contacting the family which was very stressful uh Mr Smith I was kind of Heming and Hawn
00:19:13
about what I was going to uh be uh what was on my mind how I wanted to use the daughter as kind of a lure and and John
00:19:22
tell me what what what's on your mind what do you think what are you thinking here tell me I said well Mr Smith I said
00:19:29
we're dealing with somebody here who he's not the type who's going to pull into this driveway and and and hurt
00:19:35
anyone he's not that type but I can see what's happening here is that he's transferring you know his you know you
00:19:44
know his fondness his fantasy towards Dawn here and and I I need Dawn we need Dawn to uh to lure him in and to get him
00:19:53
to communicate uh to communicate with us and uh and then he AG agreed he agreed with me and and da another one very
00:20:02
religious family uh she's a u uh she's part of church in in South Carolina and uh she preaches has a beautiful voice
00:20:13
she sings uh the Sherry Fay beautiful girl here it is on a Friday May 31st she's graduating Sunday from high school
00:20:23
she's going to sing the national anthem uh at her graduation I I communicate with the family to this day I mean all
00:20:30
these years and they set up a fund for Sher face Smith that I I participate in raising money for scholarship for
00:20:38
because she wanted to go into uh into music so it's just emotionally emotionally you know I just had my
00:20:45
physical the other day and and the the doctor said how you how do you do sleeping J how do you sleep I said I
00:20:51
can't I can't sleep I have I have a very difficult time sleeping here I said if it was me I'd get up at three or four
00:21:00
o'clock in the morning but my my wife wouldn't appreciate it because I just think of I'm just always thinking of
00:21:07
things or cases that are that are on my desk or or work uh uh that uh that I'm currently involved in I mean the job
00:21:16
your career almost took your life I remember reading in one of your earlier books where you said you were working so
00:21:22
much that you almost prayed that you would you know you would try to think about the cases up to the point of
00:21:28
falling asleep so hope you would dream about the cases so you could continue working while you're sleeping yeah I I
00:21:34
would uh I would go to bed was quiet everything's quiet and have a trying to come up with ideas help me help me come
00:21:42
up with ideas and if I kept a pad of paper and if I wake up and I thought of something I would write it down because
00:21:50
I'm afraid I was going to forget about it you know what's interesting Nick is that people they watch television they
00:21:57
see the shows and they but the degree today well the new degree is kind of forensic psychology but there are so
00:22:03
many people so many young people too uh and uh majority of the my audiences too when I go out and do public speaking uh
00:22:11
80 90% are women they're interested in this field but I have to tell them this job can be hazardous to your health and
00:22:20
and it's not just me it's to the other other people that were in my in my unit because you really you really have to
00:22:29
throw yourself into it understanding and walking in the shoes of the subject as well as of the victim and you're not
00:22:36
you're not working one case at a time at any given time uh the agents that in my
00:22:43
unit we were doing a thousand cases a year uh I for 12 12 agent profiles in myself and and we had I also was
00:22:51
training Secret Service was training uh training them they you would think that they had a program they didn't even have
00:22:57
a program like this you would have think they they would have trained Secret Service the bureau Alcohol Tobacco and
00:23:04
Firearms the volume of work and the nature of the work and that's why leading up to the time where I nearly
00:23:11
died I'm I'm up in New York training a couple hundred cops and and I know my material very well so my mouth is
00:23:19
talking but my brain is thinking of these cases I got to go up to Alaska where a guy named Rob I know would later
00:23:28
on his name was robertt Hansen the anub is up there abducting women and then hunting him down like wild animals he
00:23:37
would fly up into the Wilderness strip him down naked and hunt them hunt them down I got to go to um Seattle King
00:23:45
County to work on the green Riv murder case and have all these other cases so I have an anxiety attack Nick I think I'm
00:23:52
going to I'm having a heart attack and the the audience because I because I know my material so my mouth is moving
00:24:00
but I'm sweating my heart's pounding and and got I'm saying to myself regroup gotta regroup so I
00:24:06
regrouped and no one really detected anything as far as I know but when I came back to quano I knew Uh something's
00:24:14
going to happen to me I may die something bad so I took out income protection insurance I took out extra
00:24:20
life insurance I didn't tell anyone didn't tell my family anything but the day I had to go out on the Green River
00:24:28
murder case uh I said goodbye to my wife at home and then she's a school teacher
00:24:33
and I drove over to say goodbye to her again and uh why why are you going out there why you doing this I I said I have
00:24:41
to uh they're asking for on-site consultation I have to train this new these two new agents they assigned me to
00:24:49
to my unit and you don't look well your eyes I said well yeah I have a tremendous headache what was happening
00:24:57
was my brain was swelling up and my apparently later on the doctors say my immune system was just so so low and
00:25:06
when I when I came back in a wheelchair from this uhh from the Green River murder in fact I was going to be buried
00:25:11
I'm a veteran as well I was going to be buried at the veteran uh Cemetery they were making plans because my uh I
00:25:18
collapsed back at the hotel room and as you know prob read mine hunter and I know you did and and uh I thought I was
00:25:27
getting a flew and my brain was swelling and I told the agents it's it's Tuesday
00:25:33
night I'll see you Friday when we head back to quanico and uh back to DC and uh that and they said okay we'll see you
00:25:41
Friday and I this what I told them what to do when they go back to the task force well that night I collapsed and I
00:25:47
remained on that floor until Friday until they kicked down the door when they found me my body was in a frog like
00:25:53
position and every they said every 30 seconds to a minute my body start shaking you know just trembling like crazy my
00:26:00
face would become distorted uh emergency people came First Responders my body temperature was
00:26:07
between 104 107 and what happened was it it my brain split in my right uh temporal lobe which would cause
00:26:15
temporary I was amazing how I got over this but temporary paralysis uh but they thought for sure that I was going to I
00:26:23
was going to you know die uh from that and it it made me though Nick it made me a better leader a good leader be because
00:26:33
uh the people that do this work they throw themselves into it and when I would see people in my unit who who are
00:26:41
uh giving every drop of of sweat and blood to help others I would tell them to go home and then they they start to
00:26:51
go home but with the cases I said no you leave the cases here but you see in the
00:26:54
bureau it's so it is so bureaucratic you're not supposed to allow agents to do that you got to sign in and sign out
00:27:02
and so I would break all the you know all the the rules but it just made me a better a better person here but I get I
00:27:10
keep getting caught in the abyss I keep I I would go out to the cemetery where I
00:27:16
was going to be buried and I look for my date when I feel like oh here it goes I
00:27:21
I can't I got I can't I have no control over what's going on I have just so much
00:27:26
so much so many cases and so many calls coming in from whether it's profile I was also a hostage negotiator so these
00:27:35
young kids that's when I go out I tell them I say you know this is not like the you know like 60 Minute show or
00:27:42
something that you're watching on television and and when you see this this death and dying and it's not just
00:27:50
even murders it's victims of rape uh and these child abductions child child killings and then the impact how it has
00:28:00
on the families and I have families Nick that this this is unbelievable who want
00:28:07
me to tell them in the case of say a homicide how their their daughter how their child died uh what did the killer
00:28:17
specifically do did my child suffer uh or did she die quickly did my child put up a fight uh and and at first I
00:28:27
wouldn't I I couldn't do it but then they get mad at you and it's just like when family members they want to go in
00:28:33
the morg and I I I didn't realize this until I was working with victims of violent crime they want to see for
00:28:39
themselves what what took place to to their to the loved one and so you think you're protecting them by no you can't
00:28:46
go in there but they get angry now they want to see for themselves they want to they want to to just to see what their
00:28:53
loved one uh you know went through and and suffered so so it's it's emotionally draining it's just uh you
00:29:02
know and when you work so many cases it's has a cumulative effect you know on you so I had to go see his shrink when
00:29:10
when I came back kind of like Tony Soprano going to a shrink so I uh and and the test they gave me they said you
00:29:18
burning the can at both ends you're dist get you'd get you could have a heart attack and I was exercising but I was
00:29:24
exercising to the point of exhausting myself just trying to kind of numb my feelings which uh I couldn't do I really
00:29:34
I really couldn't do so when they finally gave me help just because they give you help
00:29:38
doesn't mean uh that you can train somebody overnight it takes about two years to train somebody and like in any
00:29:46
profession it takes about five years before they really start getting good you know at at what they do I know I'm
00:29:53
talking a lot Nick give me a chance fine and you're right I'm still trying to get
00:29:58
good at what I do but it's you know you didn't have to pinch yourself to know that you were human it it's it's your
00:30:03
heart and it's your soul that really infected your brain and and the stress is what almost took you down because I
00:30:10
can only imagine you're sitting there you know you're being moved all over the country to to take on these different
00:30:17
Adventures but here you are in New York and trying to teach and and what you know better you know inside you're
00:30:23
better equipping these Law Enforcement Officers to to increase their toolbox and do a better job become more
00:30:30
efficient at what they do so you are helping but the whole time in the back of your mind you're going what am I
00:30:35
doing here if I'm not in Alaska then we're losing lives that I'm not saving lives and then while in Alaska dealing
00:30:43
with uh bad Bob Hansen you're in the back of your mind you're going why am I not in Washington there are people
00:30:49
getting at a crazy at alarming rate uh in in in the state of Washington at the same time so I I mean I cannot imagine
00:30:57
the the the stress and and the anxiety that that that can [Music] cause this show is sponsored by better
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00:33:22
[Music] today [Music] well then Nick other thing other thing too Nick is it's kind of like that it
00:33:39
was in the mind Hunter u Netflix series is is that uh I got involved in this I just wanted to be a good instructor uh I
00:33:49
was the youngest agent when I came back to quano I had about seven years in the field had four years in the military
00:33:55
seven years in the field HH negotiation uh also uh uh bank robbery coordinator May on the SWAT team couple Advanced
00:34:03
degrees at that point in time but I was the youngest one and auditing the classes these instructors they didn't
00:34:09
have their facts right and they were being challenged by those National Academy students in the class who worked
00:34:15
the Charles Manson Cas with David burit the Son of Sam so I just wanted to be a good instructor and so that's I came up
00:34:22
the idea of go into the prisons and let's talk to the to the experts then then you have Dr Anne Burgess joins us
00:34:30
from Boston College and she was also at the University of Penn she was at both universities came and and to uh her job
00:34:39
was it's different it's not like uh Netflix how they uh the show how she's telling us how to do interviews now
00:34:46
she's basically is academic telling us how to develop the academic instruments for uh the interviews as far as the
00:34:53
interviews itself now we're doing that or developing the proactive you know techniques you know we're doing
00:34:59
you know all that kind of stuff uh but so the other thing and we didn't have the blessing I didn't have the blessing
00:35:04
of necessarily the FBI either in the early days I mean if Hoover was alive he this could never even have been
00:35:11
accomplished at all he never would have done this and and then even then after he died in
00:35:17
19772 uh there was still you know what is this uh Behavioral Science this BS kind of stuff you know you know you know
00:35:25
why you doing that why why you going to these prisons why why you doing these you know interviews so you didn't have
00:35:31
the support necessar from the bureau and then you when you go out to the cops initially too it's like they didn't
00:35:38
trust us because we were FBI and they thought in the days of Hoover you know we had we had um the agency would
00:35:47
dominate the police or take the police would work a case and in Comes The Bureau to swoop maybe swoop up the uh
00:35:55
the case from the from the the local police and and and so I wanted to change that and by the time I I left the bureau
00:36:03
it was interesting it was a situation where we got so tight with the local police and really then our agents in
00:36:09
charge of our offices out in the field office so say u a case would go down they were calling us directly and and
00:36:17
you tell them you have to go through headquarters the criminal investigated division no we got we want to talk
00:36:23
directly to you and your unit you have to go and So eventually we was okay here's what you do or here special AE in
00:36:31
charge of the Cleveland FBI you got a kidnapping here you're going to go before the press this is what you say
00:36:37
this is what you don't say and then headquarters would would get on us like what the hell are you doing telling the
00:36:43
agent in charge what to do well he's asking us he's asking us so that that uh caused a lot of stress just see you know
00:36:54
how you're being you know being you know treated within the agency then outside the agency but but then we this time
00:37:00
went on uh we were pretty uh welcome and and and always give credit to the local
00:37:06
police they're the ones and the police police or and FBI case the agents or whatever agency you're going to solve it
00:37:13
I'm just a tool in your toolbx that I may be able to help you I may not be able to uh to help you and uh people
00:37:21
don't realize too it's not just these kind of cases I work public in my unit the corruption cases foreign Counter
00:37:28
Intelligence we did did you know Assessments in those kind of cases and arson and bombings product tampering you
00:37:35
know the Tylenol case out of Chicago so all kinds of cases product tampering all you know all types of
00:37:43
cases that we did so we had a great uh it was a great great Bunch uh people that we had doing a lot of a lot of work
00:37:50
back then we were lucky enough to have Dr Anne Burgess on just a few weeks ago oh is that right yeah it was fascinating
00:37:57
to talk with her um but she is yeah yeah her air is in victim with the victim she
00:38:02
did you know did a lot she's amazing I mean for her age and she's still going going at you know at it uh but but like
00:38:11
I said when she came down uh it's really funny because the Wendy character uh you
00:38:16
know the is she's an as you know is Nurse forensic for forensic nursing but and they have this like like a
00:38:23
psychologist in the the Mind Hunter the Mind Hunter uh series and uh and then her character
00:38:31
is a lesbian Ann is not a lesbian she's married with several you several children but I did a presentation with
00:38:37
her at Boston College up there and uh they were really thrilled with her that she got you know the you know this uh
00:38:44
you know this attention although they Hollywood they hollywoodized her role they hollywoodized Mike Holden Ford the
00:38:51
actors you playing like my role and uh everyone's hoping that there'll be a season 3 the actors want a season 3 uh
00:39:01
it's up to David Fincher the director uh and uh whether or not they'll be it it was supposed to be a five-part series
00:39:10
five parts and here they ended with two but they took a year they take a year and uh for each each uh of those 10
00:39:20
episodes and a year for the nine and they were filmed in the Pittsburgh up in the Pittsburgh area
00:39:26
and uh so they had all relocate Jonathan grth who played my role holding Ford he
00:39:32
he lives up in that area so there was no problem with him but Fincher is just so
00:39:38
obsessive compulsive that in season two with the first episode uh the actors were telling me this that there was the
00:39:45
barbecue scene where uh Bill tench like my partner he's barbecuing flipping hamburgers and hot dogs in his backyard
00:39:53
and the neighbors are over and they start asking questions what what do you do I'm at the baval science unit and I
00:39:59
do interviews they get really engrossed in that they repeated that uh 74 or 75 times that one scene of flipping hot
00:40:09
dogs and hamburgers 7 and uh some actors can't take it but uh they can't they can't do that uh that's why they the uh
00:40:19
I had a girlfriend in uh season one season one the actress who had uh had uh they she just lasted one year Holden for
00:40:29
thought he was going to have this relationship you know and the and they would live happily ever after and now it
00:40:34
was great actress but it's just can you can you be that it's really strict you know and over and over to get it and
00:40:42
that's why these he makes these unbelievable uh movies or House of Cards you know was amazing series on you
00:40:51
Netflix well in season two there's that the big case obviously is the Atlanta child killings and right if we do make
00:40:59
it to a season 3 I mean you liveed the life what would be the big case would there be one big case or would it be do
00:41:05
you think it'd be more like season one I know you're not fully in charge here but
00:41:09
yeah no but would it be more like season one where it's a lot of uh smaller cases
00:41:15
and smaller involvement I had very little input surprisingly the actors were surprised themselves had very little
00:41:22
input from the writer at all uh uh the whole Mallen came down here uh stayed with me at my house and everything he
00:41:31
really dives into it Jonathan gra who plays me I didn't meet him until after you know after the fact and U and if
00:41:39
you're using M Hunter as a guide well M Hunter I I thought I was going to be a one book Wonder I can't so that so I
00:41:46
Only Could Touch on the cases like Atlanta child there were so many other and just like the L Jee Bell case you
00:41:53
know you'll touch on it but you won't go deep you don't have time time to go deep
00:41:57
you know deep into it like you can in a a single book but there are so many cases I mean they could do the Alaskan
00:42:04
case uh they could do the the Trailside killer uh they could do John John Wayne gasey they could do uh Ted you know Ted
00:42:14
bunde they could do I mean there just so you know you know so many of they could
00:42:19
do zodiac doesn't have to solve the Zodiac it's really not solved but you could do a case like that you could take
00:42:24
a go into to do a a Tylenol case or or uniom uh case there's just and there's so many other smaller cases that they
00:42:32
you you could do I mean those who've read nobody involved in Atlanta case it didn't happen like
00:42:41
like that where I'm checking into a motel and the woman checking me in is uh ends up uh you know inviting me out I
00:42:49
think in the in the show it's like I'm going to go out on a date or something with her but she's ends up bringing me
00:42:55
to where the uh where many of the victim's uh family are waiting to try to get my involvement you know you know in
00:43:03
get involved in that case it didn't go uh down like that and if and if anything uh when I went down on the case I
00:43:11
mean they raised hell with me and uh there was a case where I I only case I think the only maybe the only agan who
00:43:19
was censured censured and and then got a letter of accommodation and an incentive
00:43:24
award for the same case you know they hate you then they love you have a LoveHate relationship you you you know
00:43:31
with you they they hated me when I came back from England I was training the military I'm down in Virginia and
00:43:39
talking to people in Corrections and here a hand goes up what about this guy they just arrested in Atlanta and I said
00:43:48
well I said I said if it's if he turns out to be um the Atlant child killer he's he's going to be good for many he's
00:43:56
good for many well the crap hit the fan man right the bureau looks at that as I'm a spokesperson now for the agent
00:44:03
charge of the investigation I I thought I was going to be fired and then so then
00:44:08
as the case started going and um moving along did the assessment the profile and
00:44:15
then uh got involved in the uh you know with with the prosecutors and coached the prosecutors and and then criticized
00:44:24
the way the case was going uh like like one day they a hair and fiber uh expert for the defense took the stand and
00:44:33
looked like the John F Kennedy junor good-looking guy didn't know [ __ ] from Shola about her and forensics but the
00:44:41
the the jurors loved him they they they love good how good he was he was speaking to them and so the ne that
00:44:49
afternoon have this big conference you know and they go around room did you hear that guy you talk about here in
00:44:54
fiber he didn't know what the hell he was talking about and going around like the horn around this big table what do
00:45:00
you think John I said you guys are losing the case you what you're Lo you're losing the case he may not know
00:45:07
you know what he's talking about but you guys from from uh Bureau and from gbi jur jur of your Bureau Investigation
00:45:17
you're so damn technical I have no idea what you even saying it doesn't even make sense to me and I know have this as
00:45:24
much as at least as a jurors you and so they so they would throw me out of there they would
00:45:31
you know send me back to quano then I tell them this one time I told them hey I said just just so you know Wayne
00:45:37
Williams going to get sick in the courtroom one week from today oh get out of here I go back to quano Williams gets
00:45:43
sick in the courtroom and uh I told him before why he will get sick in the courtroom and then the next thing you
00:45:49
know get your ass back here so I had to go back to I spent five months down there and then got involved than
00:45:56
coaching the prosecutor great great guy Jack Mard on how to how to cross-examine
00:46:01
Williams because I knew he would take the stand and Al binder who was the defense attorney great he's a great guy
00:46:06
I got to meet him really when we weren't you know when he wasn't cross-examining
00:46:12
me or anybody else uh I I knew he would put Williams on the stand as because they were losing but I knew Williams
00:46:20
couldn't take it you know take any cross-examinations so I worked with Jack Jack Mard and did a tremendous
00:46:26
tremendous job and and broke him down on the standing I know you've got that FBI
00:46:32
profile over there he's pointing in my my direction you're not going to get me to fit it and your listeners may know
00:46:39
that right now they they're doing an investigation down there because they're trying to determine you know he was
00:46:45
convicted of two when we were down there we thought maybe eight to 10 were related the other ones we we couldn't
00:46:51
see a relationship here but but all those cases 28 26 six cases were closed were closed uh by the police so they are
00:47:01
looking the parents are demanding that the police look at these other cases which I was told they were you know they
00:47:08
were doing yeah and that has always fascinated me as well because I kind of feel like and and this is just very
00:47:14
basic psychology and very my limited understanding of course I'm no expert here but I look at a case like that and
00:47:21
I see I don't know if if Wayne Williams it doesn't seem likely to me that the female victims are his you're exactly
00:47:30
right and it doesn't seem likely to me either that maybe the white victims are his either um right he seemed to play
00:47:37
within a certain sandbox if you will and those ones were out of that box and and
00:47:43
I don't know that unless it was some kind of learning curve or you know that he was working on maybe there there is
00:47:51
some kind of mixup there but but it does it looks highly like likely to me that there may have been another serial
00:48:00
offender operating roughly about the same time right every year I was down there I was looking every year in
00:48:07
Atlanta they have between 10 to 12 child killings uh down there a lot of those are even domestic domestic uh related
00:48:16
types of types of cases see at the time though at the time when this that case was going on all the parents wanted to
00:48:24
be on that list to be on the list uh even though some of the way they the kids were killed were totally different
00:48:30
than the way I believe the ones that we selected how williams was responsible but they wanted to be on the list uh
00:48:38
because there was compensation involved uh with Sammy Davis Jr was down there Frank Sina putting on U big uh uh
00:48:49
presentations singing uh singing and raising money you know they raised millions millions of dollars
00:48:56
uh which they would then give to the families so everyone want their child even though no one's going to stop them
00:49:03
they compensated but I knew darn well you you mentioned Nick those two females like I want Angela lanir no you how she
00:49:11
was killed panties was stuffed in her mouth uh she's Li your strangulation totally you know totally uh you know
00:49:20
different and uh then the and some of the other ones too had like multiple stab wounds
00:49:26
uh the big thing with me was in that case was to say that the offender would be black statistically it's white but
00:49:33
but generally when you look at crimes you you crimes are intra intra racial now you do you we'll have an offender
00:49:42
cross over say he was targeting uh uh black it will go with white but is they have a we
00:49:50
call a preferential victim preferential age a preferential uh you know sex or even a look a certain look we had one in
00:49:59
the midwest one time was women with red hair so so this is you know this preference so with with him yeah he was
00:50:07
he thought of himself with he he was a ham operator he had a little radio station he can only broadcast a few
00:50:13
blocks in his in his neighborhood uh he thought he was going to develop the next
00:50:18
Jackson 5 uh but there was mishandling on that case by the U even by us it was it was mishandled when he when he was
00:50:28
stopped on that bridge uh they could have taken him in they could have Tak taking them in for uh questioning they
00:50:36
look in the car they see uh ligatures in the back of the the back seat of of the
00:50:41
car here you know it's like 1 or 2:00 you know in the morning you know when they a car stopped they hear a splash in
00:50:47
the you know in the water uh but they didn't do it and then the interview that took place I was down there but I didn't
00:50:54
get to do the interview uh they were way too hard they were way too aggressive uh
00:50:59
you know with uh you know with him on an interview and just by looking like it looked like he wanted to talk and he
00:51:06
kind of hung even hung around the office uh you know afterwards it's just it it's
00:51:12
just you know the interview some people are good at it and some people are not and when you look at a case say like
00:51:21
Georgia this this case or or you look at uh you look at Larry jeene from my book The Killer calls uh why
00:51:29
will he talk he faces the death penalty he he's a child killer and child killers
00:51:36
are low in the totem pole in prison often times you have to segregate them because they're out to get them you know
00:51:42
so what can I do you know what you know I'm not going to do an interrogation I'm
00:51:47
not going to do an inter not an interview I want to have a conversation a conversation with him but I have to
00:51:53
you have to provide some type of a face scenario to give them a way out give them an excuse an excuse uh whether it's
00:52:03
like another side of the personality they have like multiple personality they're insane or sometimes you have to
00:52:08
Total investigators may not like this but you have to almost project the blame onto the victim that the victim was the
00:52:15
Seducer and you panicked you know to get the confession you know you know out of
00:52:20
the person to put put in there doing it that's what you're trying to you're trying to you do so um some mistakes
00:52:29
were made but to clear all of those cases uh was wrong in my opinion and a lot of people's opinion which is so
00:52:38
bizarre the psychology of it because you almost sitting across from the killer at
00:52:41
the table you almost have to empathize with the stress that the the criminal put on themselves by committing these
00:52:48
acts and the and the choices and reactions that they had to make In the Heat of the Moment you almost have
00:52:55
empathize with that where we have a criminal Like Larry Jean Bell and Wayne Williams who are incapable of
00:53:03
empathizing with the people that they are killing it's it's just a it's a it's a weird bizarre situation yes it's
00:53:11
really you're you're you're portraying even uh false you know empathy uh whether it's you know whether it's Bell
00:53:18
you know I got involved in the interview I wasn't supposed to you coach others but
00:53:24
they want to bring him into the room where I and my and the agent uh Ron Walker who came with me and it was funny
00:53:32
the Donnie Meyers they call them solicitors down there not prosecutors and he said you know these boys here you
00:53:39
know these boys from the FBI and they profiled you Larry to a tea they profiled you every they everything about
00:53:46
you came true and Belle's just looking at us you know and then they just leave they leave Belle with us in this room
00:53:53
and uh it was this was not not planned they had him for hours and hours the police did trying to interview him he
00:54:00
really never fested up to anything and so sat him down on the couch and just coincidentally I happened to be wearing
00:54:07
a I got call like two in the morning we were down there you know they got this guy now and lry Je Bell and I was I put
00:54:14
on his kind of whitish pants and a white shirt it looked clinical and it turned out to be was pretty good it was it
00:54:20
wasn't done purposely and so I'm sitting right in front of him on like a table coffee table and uh I just kind of give
00:54:29
him historical view of of what we do and and what I found in uh in those prison interviews it's like uh people like who
00:54:38
I spoke to I never use word mered or killed or that kind of stuff you know do that but they I said they tell them it's
00:54:45
it's almost like you know two different sides of them there there's a side that good side and the bad side and and when
00:54:51
they perpetrate the crime they know there's they did it but it's like it's like a dreamlike they're almost like in
00:54:57
a dreamlike state and I go I do this long uh siloy I go on and on on and he's and he's just looking at me nodding with
00:55:05
me and then and I I say when did you start feeling bad about this case uh Larry I mean and and he said and he's
00:55:16
just staring at me he says when I saw uh the funeral and I saw the newspaper articles and and pictures of the family
00:55:25
at the cemetery and uh that's when I felt bad you see so why then I I shift from that is and I
00:55:35
get into this you know the side it could be two sides and then closest he would come to confession was the he says all I
00:55:42
know is that the the good Larry Jean Bell couldn't have done something like this but the bad Larry Jean Bell you
00:55:49
know could could have done that so that was as close as we came and then I presented him uh in front of Mrs Smith
00:55:58
and Dawn and I I coach them a little bit to tell them when you hear him say I know it's you I know it's you know I
00:56:05
recognize your voice and and um I did did that and he did the same routine the good versus the bad good good Larry Jean
00:56:15
Bell couldn't have done this but the bad Larry Jean Bell could have and he would
00:56:19
go trial the evidence was just overwhelming um and yeah I'm not going to tell the audience of how they got how
00:56:25
got a really good lead I'll leave that part part out because it was really interesting how we you know got on to
00:56:31
him did you have to testify against Bell yes yeah I I did and uh uh good prosecutors he U uh got me on
00:56:41
his stand I talked about the interview you know there wasn't really much you know he could get me on you know on
00:56:47
there and uh uh afterwards we uh you know we talked you're pretty good you you were good on the stand all this
00:56:57
other you know BS stuff but yeah he's trying to he was trying to save him from the death penalty and and I knew and I
00:57:05
told the prosecutor the solicitor I I say the only thing they're going to try here is an insanity defense so so what
00:57:13
what you going to see starting day one you're going to see this guy uh you know flipping out in the courtroom in front
00:57:18
of the jurors and everyone show to show that he's that's his only chance I mean we got it his goose is is cooked uh and
00:57:28
that's exactly what he did and then he would take the stand and he did and he did the same R and Raven you know I'm
00:57:34
God and all that well it took the it took the jurors I think it was like 45 minutes 48 minutes to to convict him on
00:57:41
this case and as well it was another trial on Deborah helck and the same thing you know over there and then and
00:57:49
he was sentenced got the death penalty the thing that surprised me is he he could have taken uh lethal injection or
00:57:55
the electric chair and he took the electric chair which he's such a coward and I think I think in his mind uh and
00:58:03
that happened 1996 is when he was executed is that he just wanted to show I think even I how tough he is a tough
00:58:10
guy you know because everyone would have been on him from the prison guards to the inmates being his child killer you
00:58:17
coward and everything so he could have taken the lethal injection but here he picks the he picks the uh chair which is
00:58:26
pretty could be pretty brutal yeah I I had always wondered about that if that was kind of a last ditch effort to you
00:58:32
know prove that he's insane almost right like the the normal person would pick lethal injection this picks the the
00:58:39
electric chair not to uh to to Circle back too far but why did you think that Wayne Williams would get sick in court
00:58:48
or or pretend to be sick I okay what happened was is that Al binder was the prosecutor and excuse me defense
00:58:56
attorney and Jim kitchens was the other defense attorney I got to meet meet with
00:59:00
him and U they were shocked to find out that I was in the courtroom the whole time because they were going to bring in
00:59:07
a a psychologist from Arizona to testify that Williams didn't do it uh it wasn't
00:59:12
responsible they were shocked uh but but anyway so they put Williams on the stand
00:59:17
and what they wanted to show and uh to take the stand under cross- examination Al Al binder his nickname was Jaws
00:59:25
is that uh look at this guy look at him he looks like the Pillsbury Dough Boy look look at his hands are these the
00:59:30
hands of a killer of a serial killer look at these These Hands here and so uh I no one was going to buy this the
00:59:40
jurors and I I said his only Ploy here is that is that uh uh once we cross examine him he's going to have to claim
00:59:52
you that he's there sick there's some sickness he was going to be a sympathy Ploy and so I end up coaching Jack Mard
00:59:59
the the prosecutor and uh another prosecut Gordon Miller was there and because they
01:00:05
were shocked when I said one week from today he's going to get sick in the in the courtroom and he did and uh I told
01:00:12
Jack I said Jack CU When you get when he takes when he gets a stance your choice
01:00:15
here I said the defense attorney grabbed his hands you touch his hands and then when you touch his hands say in a real
01:00:22
low voice what was it like Wayne what was it like Wayne when you wed you wrapped your fingers around Terry Pew's
01:00:29
throat did you panic Wayne did you panic and he says in a weak voice no and then
01:00:36
he realizes what he just confessed so then he gets up and he starts screaming and yelling that's when that's when he
01:00:42
he does the the pointing uh because the next day in the paper is an artist conception drawing artist in the
01:00:49
courtroom had him pointing and saying I know you got this FBI profile over here and you going to try to get me to fit it
01:00:57
and uh well you're fitting it perfectly you never should have they never should have let him take the you know take the
01:01:03
stand you know at all I got to meet the prosecutors and Mary welcome was one of the excuse me the defense attorneys was
01:01:09
there was three of them there and I was hearing fiber evidence that but it was such unique unique uh fiber evidence and
01:01:16
the big expert for the bureau is a guy agent by Hal Deadman uh he testified plus the the gbi but they only found was
01:01:25
interesting they only found the evidence on the cases that myself and that Roy Hazelwood from the unit we thought were
01:01:34
related these uh these cases and that was what's interesting is that's what the lab only founded on those particular
01:01:40
uh cases you know not these other ones early in your career you spent a lot of time interviewing serial killers behind
01:01:49
you know Prison Walls and one thing that I found this is just just a a a personal
01:01:55
question here um and I've I've studied your career throughout through your books um over the years and you know
01:02:04
keer was always somebody that you would said was one of the more interesting interviews because he was able to
01:02:10
articulate what he did why he did and he was willing to speak about it now in Ker's case he is one of these rare
01:02:21
specimens that he you know he kills once he gets out uh when he gets into his early 20s but he was already locked up
01:02:29
at age 15 for killing his grandparents I wondered had you and uh Bob westler ever
01:02:35
been in a situation where you were interviewing a juvenile serial murderer not after only
01:02:42
after um yeah after they were convicted Monty risle out of Alex Alexandria who killed uh sex workers and he was only he
01:02:51
was he was seen a psychologist he was only like in his team and uh the psychologist was giving him a
01:02:57
true bill of health is a great guy kind of like keer and meanwhile psychiatrist didn't realized this guy was killing
01:03:04
doing all these killings around the Alexandria Virginia uh Virginia you know area uh I have gone before parole boards
01:03:11
uh and fact I met just yesterday with a parole board head uh who did the book The Killer across the table a couple of
01:03:20
books back and and Joseph mcgallen was one of the ones who killed a m was a school teacher who kills a a brownie
01:03:30
seven years of age going house the house selling cookies and on this particular day she was collecting money and knocks
01:03:37
on this guy mcgaw's door and uh I they picked me because he he got to do the interview they heard me doing like a a
01:03:45
talk show on a radio kind of like today we have podcast and and uh uh and he said we got to get this guy down here to
01:03:53
this guy M's getting ready to get out of you know out of prison he served 30 years that's the maximum sentence so
01:04:00
they they uh bring me to uh uh to the prison up in new New Jersey which very intimidating intimidating prison to
01:04:10
begin with and and they put me in a room I tell them what I want how I want the room the furniture and everything they
01:04:17
introduce me to him and so I I have to go now in a fishing in a hunt here to try to let's see what this guy's
01:04:24
if he's changed has he been you know rehabilitated or what's his thinking process like so I was in with him say
01:04:31
six hours or so and then and never using always positive when you get out where are you going when you get out and he
01:04:40
says New York and I said New York I man I said I was raised in New York as a kid
01:04:45
I said man it's expensive it's expensive as hell and and and he tells me about he's got a excon up there he get a job
01:04:53
you know you know working working there and then I kind of segue into the crimes
01:04:58
I said what happened that day when you heard the knock on the screen door uh and uh and it was uh Joan delandro the
01:05:06
seven-year-old girl and uh he said my mother was away at work and this guy's like 27 at the time and my grandmother's
01:05:15
upstairs sleeping and he his he lives in a B level house down in the in the basement part his bedroom he says when I
01:05:22
looked up I knew I was going to kill her John I knew I was going to kill her and
01:05:26
and so he goes through all the the details of of what he does you know to this child what was so interesting in
01:05:34
fact I was talking to this parole board head who brought me in on a case back then just yesterday was that I wish it
01:05:40
was a video could could watch this this this play between us because he all of a
01:05:47
sudden what you trying to do is you're trying to turn on that CD in their brain and bring them back to the crime no
01:05:53
matter who it is Charles Manson whatever whoever you're talking David buris to get him back there and takes a while and
01:06:01
it and so he starts staring off and it's was freezing in his cell it was cold he
01:06:08
is sweating he's sweating profusely and it and his chest muscles and his pecs are are trembling as he's telling me
01:06:16
everything that he's done all the specifics of of his crime uh and and he would turn around with a while to make
01:06:25
sure the guards weren't weren't uh watching weren't listening in on this he he trusted me that that well as a matter
01:06:32
of fact they would intercept a letter uh before it was sent out to a woman that he was communicating with and he
01:06:39
mentions me in the letter saying you know I was interviewed by this guy John Douglas the FBI and His behavoral
01:06:45
science profiling stuff and and he said it wasn't until I was well into this interview I realized he wasn't taking
01:06:52
notes and he didn't have any notes in front of him he had no papers but he knew my case backwards and forwards he
01:06:59
knew everything about him and see that so and and so that's one of the other things I learned about doing the
01:07:05
interviews you you must maintain contact eye contact you're dealing with paranoid
01:07:11
people they don't trust anybody particularly now that they're in prison what what are you doing what do you have
01:07:16
the audio you know they show the like in mind Hunter the audio tape in the beginning the tape recording we used it
01:07:22
once we used it for uh uh for uh what do you call what's the guy the guy you just
01:07:28
mentioned uh a little while ago yeah K I'm sorry you me we use it for camper uh but but they're all who's going to
01:07:36
listen to this the warden going to hear this so just discard same thing you thinking know who's who's going to see
01:07:42
these see these uh notes here and so this guy I mean when I going back to mcgallen tells me everything including I
01:07:50
said how you going to live when you get out go to New York but I got money John got money why well make a license place
01:07:57
right have $600,000 and he's always looking back to see if the guards are listening and how'd you get that so when
01:08:03
my mother died I got insurance money my grandmother sale of the house insurance money and so i s where is the money I I
01:08:12
put the money out of state why' you put the money out of state so the family can't get any any of the money oh I said
01:08:18
oh man you'll do great 600 Grand you you'll you'll be fine when you get to New York well the next day I go before
01:08:26
the parole board and uh and I start telling telling them what happened and how this interview went down they're
01:08:34
shocked what I'm talking about psychologist psychiatrists court appointed uh people who sit on the
01:08:40
parole board a lot of them aren it's it's done in every state have no uh criminal background in investigative
01:08:47
backgrounds at all and and they're shocked mayble to get this and he says and they refer to him as a pedophile
01:08:54
I said wait no he's not a pedophile wait he killed a seven-year-old on that particular day a parole board he a
01:09:02
70-year-old lady could have knocked on that door and she would have died he was going to kill somebody and I gave him
01:09:08
the different reasons so was going on in his life you know at at that time he's no pedophile he's a killer and you let
01:09:15
him out of prison what's going to happen is that you have not rehabilitated him uh he was never habilitated to begin
01:09:23
with uh yeah and so you didn't do anything you didn't change anything and all you did was put the physical body on
01:09:29
ice for a period of 30 years but you didn't change what's up in his brain I didn't you didn't change any of that the
01:09:36
fantasies because when he was telling me about the crime he was right down to the
01:09:40
the nitty-gritty specifics you know of the crime and no remorse at all not not not a shred of of remorse came from this
01:09:48
guy so he'll go out go up to New York and things don't go well um don't believe that you think that's another
01:09:55
theory that there's burnout with these guys there's no burnout because this these are crimes of anger and crimes of
01:10:00
power and so you know that's what you have to look forward to if you you release this guy so they end up giving
01:10:05
him a hit they gave him on top of that he gave a 30-year hit and of course he appeals appeals appeals but he just died
01:10:12
he died I think just last year you know he died thank goodness so they got rid of rid of him when a killer calls a
01:10:19
haunting story of murder criminal profiling and Justice in a small town Mr Douglas I love the new book I know the
01:10:25
listeners are going to love it as well anything else any final words about this book this project before we wrap up no I
01:10:33
think it's it's good for the um people are interested in profiling and how the specifics of how you prepare and things
01:10:40
that you can do and can't do you know I try to do with all the books and in the next book whatever we select we'll we'll
01:10:46
do it with that one but uh so far it's got some very very good reviews I think uh your listeners will enjoy it and I
01:10:53
really appre appreciate Nick you having me on here too you really grown over the
01:10:57
years well this you have a tremendous uh following well thank you so much for stopping by and seeing us again and I
01:11:04
hope that you will come by and see us again on the next project oh I will thank you please invite me wonderful
01:11:10
thank you Mr [Music] Douglas you did you miss me of course you did because I missed you I missed your musk
01:11:32
for everything True Crime Check out true Crim garage.com and doesn't get much better than the OG goat talking with the
01:11:40
colonel until next week be good be kind and don't litter [Music] Angie's List is now Angie we've heard a
01:12:24
lot of theories about why I thought it was an Eco move fewer worse less paper no it was so you could say it faster no
01:12:32
it's to be more iconic must be a tech thing but those aren't quite right it's because now you can compare upfront
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prices book a service instantly and even get your project handled from start to finish sounds easy it is and it makes us
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