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[Music] [Applause] welcome to True Crime garage wherever you are whatever you are doing thanks
00:01:28
for listening I'm your host Nick and with me as always is a guy that woke up this morning feeling dangerous he is the
00:01:35
captain I'm just like every man I wake up every day and put my skirt on one leg at a time it's good to be seen and it's
00:01:42
good to see you thanks for listening thanks for telling the [Music] friend today we are drinking Clockwork
00:01:55
Tangerine by Brew do garage grade 4 and 1 half bottle caps at of five Clockwork Tangerine is a sessions IPA infused with
00:02:04
just the right amount of Tangerine citrusy goodness and from brewog and as those of you that follow me on untap
00:02:10
know I was lucky enough to visit brewog just a few weeks ago if you're ever in central Ohio make a trip over there okay
00:02:17
on to the shout outs we go first up a shout out to Andrea in Grand Blanc Michigan and a big shout out to John
00:02:24
from Cincinnati John is a big fan of ryge as are we John next we give shears to Lum in Puerto Rico and a big we like
00:02:33
your jib to the sisters grim and Marian Iowa next we have Theo from Dorchester Massachusetts and last but not least we
00:02:42
have Monica in Georgetown Indiana so thanks to everybody for going to our website true Crim garage.com and helping
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us out with a little bit of beer money for this week's shows make sure you follow us on social media Instagram
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Twitter Facebook Snapchat all that stuff @ True Crime garage and that's enough of
00:03:00
the business all right everybody gather around grab a chair grab a beer let's talk some true
00:03:07
[Music] [Music] crime after Wayne grette was murdered his wife Diane sold the farm that they
00:03:29
had purchased and moved to earlier that year she used $50,000 of the money to establish a
00:03:36
reward for information on Wayne's murder and set up a website to help gather information while tips did come in
00:03:44
detective Paul Johnson recently stated that today in 2018 while they have some Persons of Interest there are no
00:03:53
specific suspects and he will not name these Persons of Interest so essentially the case has
00:04:00
and they have tried modern testing Technologies and these have failed to provide any more clues frankly no one
00:04:08
knows if this was something in Wayne's private life or whether it was related to his business Dian Gravette maintains
00:04:16
that her husband was a quiet hardworking man devoted to his family he wasn't involved in anything illegal adding they
00:04:25
had a good family home she said I know he didn't hurt anybody we didn't rip anybody off we didn't owe anybody any
00:04:35
money sadly Diane may not have known her husband as well as she thought their kids Danielle and Justin have realized
00:04:43
that while they have fond memories of Wayne as a great family man and Dad outside the home it was quite a
00:04:49
different story it seems that quite a few people might have wanted to murder Wayne Gravette all right yesterday we
00:04:57
mentioned Affairs so let's dive in shall we over the course of the investigation
00:05:03
it became apparent that Wayne had multiple extramarital Affairs we know he was often away for work sometimes far
00:05:11
from home but Wayne also had affairs close to home and all of this was news to Diane we don't know the names and
00:05:20
identities of most of these women for obvious reasons but one friend of Diane's later told her that at one point
00:05:27
Wayne he snuck in a bed with her and and pretended to be her husband and when she
00:05:32
realized that it was not her husband she kicked Wayne out of the bed but others apparently didn't kick him out and one
00:05:40
was Lisa Irvin yeah Wayne had an affair with her that lasted over 5 years starting back when they both worked at
00:05:49
surge when this information emerged it was especially hurtful to Diane who considered Lisa her best friend Diane
00:05:58
says Lisa was at at the house all the time working with her and Wayne and it annoyed Diane that Wayne flirted with
00:06:06
Lisa openly but she didn't think it was anything more than that now after Wayne's death when Diane confronted Lisa
00:06:15
Lisa said Wayne initiated the relationship and she tried to break it off multiple times but quote he wouldn't
00:06:22
let her end quote she finally left DNL and Wayne in either 1993 or 1994 it's a little a little murky Lisa's
00:06:32
relationship with other men were ruined because of her affair with Wayne at the end of the affair Lisa was dating a guy
00:06:40
named Rocky and police thought that Rocky may have been the jealous type and Lisa and Rocky both gave hairs for DNA
00:06:48
analysis and there was a man named Dean whom Lisa was seeing during her affair with Wayne Wayne forced Lisa to dump
00:06:57
this guy named Dean saying he would fire her if she didn't mhm it's possible either of these men could be the culprit
00:07:05
but we should mention one thing here apparently according to Lisa Rocky was cheating on her as well you know so he's
00:07:14
been labeled this jealous type but he also was running around behind her back right Lisa stayed in close touch with
00:07:24
the gretes after leaving the company and after ending the affair even visiting the f arm at least on one occasion she
00:07:32
says she was intensely grilled by the police after Wayne was killed she admits that she was
00:07:39
terrified mainly because her name appeared in the letter even if it was misspelled police seem not to have
00:07:47
pursued the Lisa angle too much in my opinion because in the documentary that was later made by the the CBC this une
00:07:55
Earth that Lisa's old computer uh she still had this in her possession that police had not gone
00:08:02
through this old computer it was like an old work computer yes it contained business and financial records of
00:08:08
Wayne's uh eventually after it was uncovered during the course of making this documentary it was then given to
00:08:16
the police the police have stated publicly that they feel that they have thoroughly and completely vetted Wayne's
00:08:23
business Affairs but still lack complete information about the private side of his life so if he was
00:08:30
with many other women on the side perhaps a jealous husband had had enough aside from cheating is it possible Wayne
00:08:38
was harboring another secret both Diane and Justin told investigators Wayne was acting odd in the months prior to his
00:08:46
death MH according to to Diane Wayne became increasingly agitated in the months before acting paranoid refusing
00:08:54
to answer the phone and ignoring jobs that came up and ignoring angry customers well you also wonder too if
00:09:01
he's having all these Affairs was there ever a baby through one of these Affairs that's
00:09:08
interesting there could have been a baby the the other thing too is we talked yesterday that there was rumor or even
00:09:15
people on the inside that seem to believe that Wayne was doing what we called Bad Business yes and it seems to
00:09:23
me like he's dodging somebody and it it feels to me like the most likely person to dodge while at work while not wanting
00:09:31
to answer the phone would be these angry customers angry clients that he was doing bad business with Diane says that
00:09:40
the uh close to the time of the murder this is pretty weird here that she got a phone call at the house at their home
00:09:47
from Bell Telephone Canada mhm the caller asked Diane what their business was and she told the caller about the
00:09:55
beverage packaging equipment company mhm now Wayne yelled at her to get off the phone and warned her not to talk about
00:10:02
their business to strangers this is weird because it doesn't seem likely to me that the phone
00:10:09
company would be calling or making this kind of call um it could have just really been somebody fishing for
00:10:16
information yeah was Wayne actually living there working there all that jazz and in fact after Wayne's death Diane
00:10:24
did call the company back and they did deny ever having called the house then we have Justin Wayne's son said
00:10:32
that they received a call just weeks before Wayne was killed from someone wanting their address their new address
00:10:39
claiming they would receive free t-shirts in the mail M Justin says he didn't fall for it and he hung up the
00:10:46
phone never giving them the address one time a truck pulled into the driveway and Wayne ran outside with a
00:10:55
pool queue and chased the truck and it drove away so what I'm getting at here Captain is all
00:11:01
of these stories what are you hitting at well all of these stories obviously seem
00:11:07
to indicate that Wayne was Wayne could have been worried about something somebody could have been
00:11:13
looking for Wayne yeah right calling the house a truck showing up and the the odd
00:11:18
thing too is we have the situation with the truck and Wayne chasing it off of the property that's my favorite one I
00:11:24
mean that that's a sign that you're you're paranoid about something mhm so was this
00:11:33
what I have a bit of confusion with though I would like to know regarding the telephone company I'd like to know
00:11:42
more about when that actually occurred when that phone call occurred because the problem that I'm having when I'm
00:11:48
going through Wayne and Diane's life is that it it sounds to me and it looks to me like they were trying to transition
00:11:57
away from being this uh repair company this equipment repair company/ Bottling Company uh it looked
00:12:06
to me like they were trying to move into the the water business into the bottled
00:12:10
water business and I understand that that's you know they're similar yeah this part of the story seems a little
00:12:16
murky for me because it it seems on one hand that this is like their last option
00:12:22
we move out to this Farm it has a spring on it and this is this is going to save
00:12:28
us because the packaging and and all that stuff that business is not going so well
00:12:35
that's going under that that's what it seems to me but then it seems like maybe Wayne was still trying to keep one foot
00:12:43
in that business and if he was scamming people maybe he was going to keep trying
00:12:48
to scam people thinking that he was safe by hiding out on this Farm yeah because
00:12:54
the way that all three of these these stories that we just reviewed all three you know without knowing any dates or
00:13:01
any more specifics and these were stories that are relayed from Diane and from Justin but without it more
00:13:08
specifics we are led to believe that these are all incidents that occurred once they moved to this Farm once they
00:13:14
moved to this 104 Acre Farm they have the spring they're going to bottle some water they're going to create their own
00:13:20
bottled water company right and it it seems strange to me that somebody's calling to to inquire about what their
00:13:29
business is it almost felt to me like when when they moved that they were leaving DNL behind that they were
00:13:36
leaving their old business their old company behind they were going to start this whole new thing like you said this
00:13:41
is last call this is the last thing that might be able to save us the other thing
00:13:45
too 1996 when you think about it m if you started up a a bottled water company in
00:13:52
96 or I mean even today this could be not just the thing to save you it could be a lottery ticket yes you know it
00:13:59
could turn into a big business yeah a guy I worked for for a while had a spring on some property and it was at
00:14:09
any point they could pull the trigger and this was a million dooll idea mhm well let's talk about some of his work
00:14:18
relationships that we do know more specifics about okay starting with the surge company that we've already
00:14:24
mentioned the company that Wayne ultimately left uh this would be because there was a dispute with the people that
00:14:31
he worked with there specifically the owner of the company which was Ed gck Senior well technically it was his
00:14:38
partner I believe yeah I I it feels like that but to be 100% clear Ed was the was the sole
00:14:47
owner of this company agreed he was the head honcho he was the boss he was the guy that at the end of the day he called
00:14:53
the shots um he there may have been some kind of partner relationship it sounds like like to me that Wayne was uh paid a
00:15:02
little differently than most of us he wasn't technically an hourly guy wasn't technically a salary guy I believe he
00:15:09
had some ownership in the in the company well I think they paid him 10% of the uh
00:15:13
profits for the year so his his his work was based off of that pay structure right and their growth of the company
00:15:21
thus making him feel like some sort of owner or at least that he is has ownership of 10% of the company which I
00:15:28
know that when they falling out that there was money owed to Wayne yeah which could have been motive well no but this
00:15:37
money was paid so um it really could only be mo motive if if you didn't want to pay the money right okay so this
00:15:45
money was paid to him and as you were stating he he had some ownership I didn't have a clear understanding of
00:15:51
what that money paid was for but now that you said he had some ownership well it's likely that that was part of their
00:15:59
stipulation part of their their rules you know their contract that if at any time I decide Wayne you have to leave
00:16:06
the company well then Ed and serge in The Surge company has to pay you your 10% right you know not just for that
00:16:13
year but pay you your 10% for the company so anyway let's just refer to Ed Senor as Ed is that going to be too
00:16:20
confusing because there's an ed Jor or little Ed that we'll talk about uh as we go let's call him old man Ed Ed Senior
00:16:28
Ed Senior okay Ed Senior and he's a he's a wacka do yeah um yeah that's I mean I don't
00:16:37
know how else to say it I mean he is he is on another planet well and I hate here's here's the thing though I I kind
00:16:46
of think Ed Jr or little Ed is a wackadoo as well um yeah the wackadoos don't fall too far from the tree
00:16:56
Wackadoo tree I hate to I hate to come out our here but for somebody that worked so long with both of these
00:17:03
individuals and was part business partners with one and had such a long relationship with one I almost wonder
00:17:10
was Wayne a wackadoo as well he was chasing after trucks with a pole stick his property and he was moving to a
00:17:19
property that had a spring to have a a bottled to have a bottle water company I think are some wacka do ideas man I
00:17:28
don't know I don't know what planet you're living on let's go with this because this sounds more polite can we
00:17:34
agree that Wayne I don't give a [ __ ] about being polite well he's I mean he was murdered and his family members
00:17:40
probably will listen to this when we title it Wayne Gravette I do give a [ __ ] about being polite towards him yes yes
00:17:47
but but yes I mean but also this is a situation where not only do you have a business owner but you have a very close
00:17:54
relationship and Ed Senior was kind of a mentor SL F Father Figure type to Wayne
00:18:01
so they had a very close Bond mhm and I just want to clean this up before we move on can we agree rather than Wayne
00:18:08
being a wackadoo he was sounds like the the type of man that marched to the beat
00:18:12
of his own drum yeah that sounds yeah that sounds more accurate to me yeah and I think his family would agree to with
00:18:20
that as well and you're right about this Mentor maybe even fatherson type relationship between Ed Senior and Wayne
00:18:27
Gravette because Wayne was like 18 he's working at the seven up Bottling Company
00:18:33
this is when he meets Ed Senior and at some point Ed moves on to um creating his own business this surge company and
00:18:43
eventually he will bring Wayne on with him because Wayne was a hardworking dude he knew his stuff right and regardless
00:18:51
to the beat of the drum that he marched to everybody that knew hardworking drum though said he was a hardworking dude
00:18:58
and he was extremely intelligent when it came to this industry when it came to working on these things being a part of
00:19:04
the bottling industry so they were very tight they played poker together they were drinking buddies they were you know
00:19:11
boss uh working relationship all of that up until 1993 this was when the relationship just
00:19:19
went kaput and actually you can there there are several well I don't know if several there's at least one interview
00:19:27
but there's versions of this interview out there with Ed Senior and you can hear the way that he refers to their
00:19:34
working relationship he refers to it as a marriage pretty much because it was that lengthy and that close of a
00:19:41
relationship to the point where he says this is when we got our divorce was in 1993 this is when we parted ways well
00:19:49
that's what it is I mean we deal with that all the time you know with the podcast getting bigger and bigger I mean
00:19:56
feels like we're married sometimes at some some point they brought on Diane Wayne's wife as an employee of the
00:20:04
company Ed demanded that Wayne fire her this seems to be what led them down the road of them parting ways uh whether it
00:20:14
be Wayne got difficult to work with I can tell you this the vibe I get from the interview with Ed Senior that I've
00:20:21
seen several versions of listen to some versions of he seems a little difficult to get along with even on a good day
00:20:29
yeah he he's he's laughing the whole time in the interview which comes across as a little strange because he is
00:20:36
talking to the victim's family but they're also you you could argue that they're family friends and so the way
00:20:46
he's going to talk to them is going to be different and maybe he's trying to ease up some of the tension because
00:20:52
there are they're talking about the murder of their father um but he does laugh sometimes where it's just like
00:20:58
this is a little strange well and the whole purpose of bringing up Ed Senior and then Ed Jr is a couple things
00:21:06
because when we when we dive into this investigation the investigators have outrightly stated that that it's either
00:21:14
business or personal right that led to this bomb being mailed to his home but it seems like law enforcement is an
00:21:21
agreement with us where we find that this is probably done by a male more likely done by a male mhm so if it's
00:21:28
going to be personal relationships it's going to be coming from a jealous husband or boyfriend and that but if it
00:21:35
comes from the business angle that it's still coming from a male they've cited that it could be from business with the
00:21:43
spring water you know the upstart that they were doing could be with DNL or it could be with the surge company and I
00:21:50
think when you break down the Simplicity of the thought that your suspect your perpetrator May lie within one of those
00:21:57
businesses is this if it were someone in connection to the spring water it would
00:22:03
to me either be one of two things uh future competitor you know somebody that believed that he was going to steal some
00:22:10
business from them or maybe a a a conservationist right but yeah and if you look at the letter though if you
00:22:18
think that the letter means anything I would argue that it seems like there's nothing to do with a spring and also
00:22:25
just because you have a spring you are a very far like I said I worked for a guy that had a spring he would always
00:22:34
talk about how if they wanted to pull the trigger they would mhm and well when you work for the guy and your my job was
00:22:41
to help him make money at all his companies M so don't you think I said well let's pull the trigger right and
00:22:49
you know what his reply was you know how much work that's going to take so it became it went from well I do know how
00:22:55
much work it's going to take and I can tell you why because if you stop what you're doing right now you go to
00:22:59
truecrime garage.com you can order a case of purified True Crime garage spring water and guess what not only did
00:23:07
the captain package it and ship it I put it in the bottles myself I got I got four hoses that come off the side of my
00:23:15
don't trust that water don't trust that water it's it'll get you high as a kite that water is a crime let me tell you no
00:23:22
but so it went from well we just pull the trigger and we're multi-millionaires to there is a lot of red tape and so I
00:23:31
even think if you go from like this activist standpoint where you're going to take this uh spring water again if
00:23:39
you think the letter has any relevance then where where in the letter would that you know Point toward towards uh
00:23:51
some activist trying to stop him from bottling this water again it seems I I think you're really hitting on something
00:23:57
here because not only did I do I believe that the letter was more of a way to increase the likelihood of Wayne
00:24:04
actually flipping that switch and exploding the the flashlight right but the reference of Lisa and the reference
00:24:12
of he doesn't just say the the letter writer doesn't just say Lisa and Joe it says Lisa and Joe your delivery man
00:24:19
right references his name and attaches it to a title or to a job well here's a question that I have though we know that
00:24:27
Lisa came from ser right do we know if Joe came from surge because one of the interesting things
00:24:34
with Ed Senior you know Wayne's business partner let's say MH is in his statements when
00:24:41
he's talking to his when he's talking to Wayne's daughter and Wayne's son he says
00:24:48
I live on this property that I have to sometimes shoot deer mhm but I can't even shoot them right so I have to bring
00:24:57
somebody else in um and that makes me wonder and that doesn't make me wonder did he make the
00:25:06
bomb uh I think he would hire possibly somebody to do this and it's just such a weird statement and and if you can find
00:25:15
that online I just think that's something um I think that's very telling regarding
00:25:22
Joe I'm glad that you asked me that because all along the way here I felt like not only did Lisa come from The
00:25:30
Surge company and go to DNL but also Joe did as well and I believe that I read that somewhere but when I went to
00:25:37
backtrack when I went to look back and try to confirm that I had read that somewhere I couldn't find it again when
00:25:43
you try to pull a job Rule and back it up mhh that's right and you know we review so much material for this stuff
00:25:51
sometimes it's hard to remember or put a put a place on where you believe that you've read something my guess is yes
00:25:57
that this is more of a Michael Scott type situation where he's working for Dunder Mifflin and I think he quits or
00:26:04
he gets fired or whatever he goes off and starts up the Michael Scott paper company and he's trying to pull some of
00:26:11
the employees and take them from dundermifflin to come work for him and his new company and he's trying to steal
00:26:18
and siphon off some of their clients as well right so that would be the motive for Ed Senior is that hey we're not
00:26:26
working together anymore we don't have this close-knit relationship anymore you're trying to undercut me you're
00:26:32
trying to steal my business um and you made things difficult on me anyways by leaving so I want you dead well and you
00:26:41
but I think you're also trying to point out that the letter mentions Joe and mentions a title job title for Joe and
00:26:49
would Ed Senior have known Joe would would Joe have worked for him at any point right my guess is is just that yes
00:26:57
and that leads us back to one of the biggest questions in this whole case does the letter mean something and if
00:27:04
you believe that the the letter does mean something then which you have to because Lisa and Joe are not just named
00:27:14
by chance they didn't just pull those two names out of thin air and it happened to do something with Wayne's
00:27:19
life no this was all something from before from before the spring the bottled you know water business so
00:27:28
therefore when you talk about if this is work related is it related to Spring waterer to DNL to The Surge company I
00:27:36
think you can rule out the bottled water I believe so too and I think you have to
00:27:41
stick more with packaging if this is business related it's coming from DNL or The Surge company right but DNL is
00:27:49
basically kind of offshoot of the surge stuff so but again that would be the motive for Ed Senior mhm so then what
00:27:56
about Ed Jor what's his motive um I to be honest with you I don't know that I understand 100%
00:28:05
what either of their motives would be but a possibility here is once Wayne left the surge company mhm we have Ed Jr
00:28:15
who had been in and out of the surge company for years he's brought back to the surge company and he basically takes
00:28:22
over Wayne's position working for his father Ed Senior right and so Ed Senor actually he brings up this idea that
00:28:30
possibly they had multiple falling outs he didn't like his son at all his son didn't like him which is hilarious cuz
00:28:38
you named your son after yourself that's funny when that works out that way well
00:28:42
he liked him the day he named him right and then uh he grew up to be an [ __ ] just like you and so at some point they
00:28:49
have these big falling outs and so Ed Senior thinks that maybe it was I will get rid of Wayne this will look bad
00:28:59
towards my father because they had a falling out of their business possibly my father gets arrested for this and now
00:29:06
Wayne's gone my father is in jail and I get to take over the business myself and
00:29:13
that's that's something that is suggested during this very strange interview as he's laughing multiple
00:29:20
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00:34:12
[Music] today all right cheers MIM I'm enjoying some true crime garage bottled water straight from the hose it's
00:34:27
fantastic in the course of their investigation into Wayne's death the CBC and Wayne's
00:34:33
family brought to light a murder that could be related and this is Paul henin he was murdered on May 16th 2002 under
00:34:42
mysterious circumstances Paul knew Wayne he worked in the same packaging industry
00:34:48
and even bought parts from Wayne and used to play a regular poker game with Wayne and others in that industry Paul
00:34:56
was at a pub the evening that he was murdered and was dropped off by a taxi just after midnight at his apartment
00:35:04
although some Reports say it was at his company Warehouse regardless he was stabbed 14
00:35:10
times and left for dead police found his green 1997 Chevy pickup nearby a few days later and found a palm print and
00:35:19
several DNA profiles in it but the case has never been solved apparently at the time the police never considered whether
00:35:27
the two murders were connected they said that a large amount of money went missing around the time of Paul's murder
00:35:34
they believe that Paul knew the people that killed him or the person that killed him and it was personal and not
00:35:39
connected to Wayne all we know is that Paul and Wayne knew each other worked in the same industry and were both both
00:35:47
murdered in unsolved cases about six years apart yeah but way different kinds of murders
00:35:55
one is from a distance not being able to see ones up close stabbing this is somebody that does not mind get in their
00:36:06
hands dirty and quote unquote a large amount of money missing you know we don't know what that money was what it
00:36:12
was tied to but uh or how much it was but that is always listed when anytime we look up or look into Paul hinton's
00:36:21
murder yeah the the difficult thing here for me though is the records of Wayne and how he kept his
00:36:29
records for his business and and having it be a small business we're never going
00:36:34
to know if there was a chunk of money missing or money that was supposed to be paid back to somebody we we might just
00:36:45
not know because of how the books were kept well and from my understanding that is that Wayne operated his business when
00:36:53
he was out to repair something install something sell something to somebody he operated under a
00:37:00
50410 payment method and what that meant was that the client or customer would pay 50% upfront when they agreed to have
00:37:08
the work done 40% upon the completion of the work or the delivery and then 10% would later be build 30 days out MH the
00:37:18
problem with this is not so much the billing method but we have individuals including his family and co-workers and
00:37:26
people that work for him that said that it would not be terribly unusual for Wayne to do something off the books
00:37:34
right and this is where the thought comes in that maybe Wayne conducted quote unquote bad business with people
00:37:41
meaning he could sell somebody something sell some equipment or repair something
00:37:46
or do some work for somebody and say you know what just pay me under the table and the thought of the bad businesses
00:37:52
maybe he was charging people for things up front and because it was on the DL he
00:37:57
would never deliver he would never come through with what they agreed upon and he would just pocket the money and
00:38:03
Paul's hit could have possibly been a hit and that kind of G leads us into this idea of a man came forward that
00:38:13
worked in the industry and he said hey look $5,000 $10,000 that's no big deal in our
00:38:20
industry mhm but it could get you killed yeah some people will kill somebody for
00:38:26
five to $10,000 well and the rumor that he States is that he heard that the bombing
00:38:36
was a hired job and they hired the Hell's Angels well there there are actually several biker gangs let's say
00:38:44
or biker clubs or groups whatever you want to refer to them as that have been rumored to have been involved in Wayne's
00:38:51
death I think the strange thing here to me Captain is I wonder personally if this just is like Wayne drove a Harley
00:39:01
he he he had a Harley he was a motorcycle guy is this like the is this one more way to kind of tie this in
00:39:09
because there and and Wayne was a loud man he was kind of a [ __ ] talker mhm so is this where it comes from well and
00:39:18
he he was at bars and poker games I to me I I feel like if he got loud or aggressive with somebody in a biker
00:39:28
club that that person would have just straightened him out right there on the spot this isn't something that I I I
00:39:35
can't believe that any of these type of gangs would be like oh well let's just sit on this for months or years and
00:39:42
we'll send a bomb to his his family's home and that being the key word family in there because with a lot of these
00:39:51
situations including you know Irish mob Italian mafia All That Jazz if you if you are in one of these gangs
00:40:00
even if they are a violent gang or if they are a mob or Mafia that will do things uh violently causing someone's
00:40:08
death at the end of the day these men regardless of how violent they are they are individuals that have families
00:40:15
themselves and the way that the the thought is of most of these individuals would be that they wouldn't risk harming
00:40:24
somebody that was innocent to settle a debt or to gain revenge on someone where I agree with you mostly on that I do
00:40:32
want to bring up the idea and it even states in the letter had a hard time finding you so if you need to settle a
00:40:39
score and you can't find that person that this may be is not so much a cow a cowardly way but that you just can't
00:40:49
make contact with this individual and so is this something they would do and then
00:40:55
that started making me wonder the Acton home what was the name of the company again Acton home Pro uh products
00:41:04
okay neither one of can talk today um does that does the ahp stand for something possibly some form of um biker
00:41:16
gang or something well so there there's a couple of thoughts in and around this whole Theory itself is that could this
00:41:26
be link to a biker gang could this have been a hit the other thing that people have considered and discussed was was
00:41:33
Wayne getting into some hardcore drugs and was drugs the link to his actual murder yeah he was an avid pot smoker
00:41:41
and he was known to sell pot to people but family and friends say never heard him talk about
00:41:49
anything of a harder drug or or anything like that now I went down all of these roads when looking into this case
00:41:58
and if if we go into each one of these we could be talking about this case for four or five hours MH if anybody wants
00:42:05
to look into those angles I recommend it however take this with you along the way
00:42:10
or consider this before going down these roads what I found when we cover these cases and in my you know long history of
00:42:20
reading about true crime is usually Captain I find that when something is linked to a biker gang
00:42:27
to the mafia or to drugs it's pretty easily connected by police they may not they may not know the exact culprit they
00:42:37
might may not know the individual or the exact individuals responsible right but
00:42:42
usually in these investigations you can get the vibe from investigators from the
00:42:48
detectives fairly early on that they they know they they they'll say hey we believe this is drug related right they
00:42:54
know the entity that's responsible right and without any exact proof of him having doing any harder anything harder
00:43:03
than marijuana I mean look I've seen it I've seen investigators go down that road too and it just it usually doesn't
00:43:12
pan out there's usually something very obvious from the get-go that it's one of those things and I think when we have
00:43:19
limited time here to discuss the possibilities and discuss discuss the theories MH I think that spending too
00:43:26
much time on those there just doesn't seem to be enough there for me right and this guy that came forward I think he
00:43:33
might just believe the rumor he heard I think everything that that we have here is something linked to Wayne's work all
00:43:44
right so let's get into your your thoughts your opinions well and what I mean by that is not necessarily solely
00:43:50
related to his work what I mean is that something I believe whoever sent this bomb to his home whoever's responsible
00:43:59
for this I believe that the the tension whatever led to this individual taking this action it happened during the
00:44:08
course of his time with surge or his time with DNL and the reason why I say that is simply because of the names Lisa
00:44:17
and Joe listed on the letter right and also the letter is also indicating hey you've done work for us before we're
00:44:24
looking for you to do work for us in the future blah blah blah you see what I mean it it feels like there's something
00:44:30
in that time period of his life that is a connection there it could be the problem with this case is there's so
00:44:39
many possibilities and what I mean by that is to simplify them it's either business or personal personal affairs
00:44:46
who knows how many Affairs this guy had and then when it comes down play on player when it comes down to business I
00:44:53
really feel like it's DNL or surge but at the same time it feels like to me that working for the surge company and
00:45:00
his owning his own company of DNL allowed him to have some of these Affairs as well so I firmly believe that
00:45:07
it's something based around those to be honest with you Captain at the end of the day I kind of feel like Ed Senior
00:45:16
and Ed Jr might be the ones here and the reason why I say that is for a couple of
00:45:23
reasons we have two individuals that seem to have been in in quiring about Wayne's address mhm if you look at those
00:45:31
composits and I now mind you I'm looking at pictures of Ed Jr and Ed Senior from
00:45:37
2016 2017 M but if you can kind of playback the tape go 20 years ago these guys kind of look like the composite
00:45:47
drawings especially Ed Junior right and there's two drawings and to have two individuals that work together that are
00:45:55
related to look like the drawings that's kind of a coincidence yeah I mean when you look at the structure of Ed Junior's
00:46:01
face his haircut and his his neck the size of his neck mm that looks to me like the composite of the younger man
00:46:09
what I would say label as the younger man of the two composits the older individual appears to me to be a Ed
00:46:17
Senior from 20 years ago it's a similar style hair similar style face the only difference is I there are there are
00:46:25
glasses being worn worn by the person in the composite drawing and I can't say for certain if I recall if Ed Senior was
00:46:33
wearing glasses now I saw and you have as well and I've listened to interviews with both of these individuals senior
00:46:41
and Junior the thing is when I'm watching these or listening to them I do need to keep in mind I've only seen
00:46:49
edited versions of these interviews this is not like watching them start to finish right it's edited versions The
00:46:57
troubling thing for me here is while both of them seem somewhat candid when they sit down and are willing to talk
00:47:04
with the families and talk with the CBC regarding these uh regarding this murder both of them do do two things
00:47:12
that I I find are intriguing they both say I couldn't have murdered him in fact I couldn't kill anybody at all and then
00:47:20
two both of them es especially Ed Senor Ed Senior seems to spend a lot of time telling them of what roads he would go
00:47:32
down other possible suspects yeah and and even naming his son as one look he might just be trying to be helpful or at
00:47:41
the same time he might be trying to steer uh the spotlight away from himself well law enforcement did say that they
00:47:48
gave certain suspects polygrass but they weren't going to go into that information now Ed Jr claims that his
00:47:55
father brags about taking a polygraph and passing that well he says in one of those interviews that he gave several
00:48:02
polygraphs right but we don't know that that's what happened and Ed Jor says that they never even brought up the word
00:48:09
polygraph to him yeah so a curious thing here is we have Ed Senor telling the CBC
00:48:18
he says well you know they asked me uh about DNA they asked me why they would have found hairs of mine on the farm on
00:48:26
the now mind you they just moved to this Farm 6 months before his murder mhm Ed Senior has never been to this farm so
00:48:33
why would they find hairs of his on the farm and he States well you know that he
00:48:39
this guy was was was a crook all the time playing games whatever he would steal my baseball caps and wear you know
00:48:45
I'd have a hat missing and then the next day I'd see him wearing it right and I thought oh well I need a new hat so he
00:48:51
has an answer for why they would find hair at his farm or he has answer for everything what I think's a little
00:48:59
telling there though when we go back to many of the cases that we've covered but
00:49:04
let's look at one specifically the West Memphis 3 case we know the what was it a
00:49:09
page of nine questions that the FBI formulated for the local police and investigators to ask people while they
00:49:17
were canvasing the neighborhood one of those questions was why would DNA or why would evidence of you be found at the
00:49:26
crime scene my where my head goes with this Captain is what if during the course of Ed Sor being interviewed
00:49:34
they're not telling him that they found his hair there right they're simply stating why would we find your hair at
00:49:41
the crime scene why would we find your hair at their farm and he has an answer for
00:49:46
that why why isn't again this is a edited interview but why isn't that answer going well I was never at the
00:49:53
farm that's the answer they're looking for to clear you I was never at the farm so you wouldn't have found my hair there
00:49:59
right no instead he has a way to get his hair from off of the top of his head all
00:50:04
the way to that farm that he's never been to the other weird thing too is when Ed Jr's
00:50:10
talking he says and I swear during the course of the interview I heard him say that he had drove by the
00:50:18
farm on one occasion and he he references that oh I said to myself that looks like a nice
00:50:25
place but we have both of these individuals saying that they lost touch with Wayne
00:50:32
for about 3 years right but you drove by his home and how did you know where he lived and then you have let's back it up
00:50:41
even more you have Ed Senior he says in his interview oh I kind of lost track for him completely for two years well
00:50:50
they didn't work together they had their falling out over 3 years before his murder he says in that first year year
00:50:56
he was keeping tabs on Wayne because of what I reverenced earlier the Michael Scott situation where Wayne is taking
00:51:04
his employees and trying to take his clients and customers as well MH and so he kept tabs on him for about a year
00:51:12
Well likely Ed Senior could have known that Lisa left and went to work for Wayne without keeping tabs he could have
00:51:19
known that Joe left and went to work for Wayne without keeping tabs but having kept tabs he 100% would know this
00:51:28
mhm what about what did did you hear the slip in Ed Jr's interview where he's where he talks about the falling the
00:51:36
last falling out between him and his father and he says that they got into some type of argument and he says I
00:51:42
never saw my father act that way before I never saw him that mad right and he said to
00:51:50
me that I will do the same and then eded these are Ed Junior's words talking about his father saying Ed Senior said I
00:51:58
will do I will do the same or the same thing and then he cuts himself off and he says he basically said he would kill
00:52:06
me right was he about to say that that his father told him the same thing that happened to Wayne is going to happen to
00:52:14
you right which is weird like and it's almost like he catches himself and stops that statement now it could have been a
00:52:22
slip of the tongue did I say every word perfectly today no every sentence perfectly today no maybe on episode
00:52:30
975 but but maybe if I edit for 6 hours but what I'm getting at it seemed like almost a weird slip there to me that
00:52:39
there's weird slips in both of their interviews yeah I think and and the thing you pointed out especially with Ed
00:52:45
Senor Ed junor does it a little bit too but Ed Senior does that crazy laugh at the end of every statement well I also
00:52:52
believe he's wearing a hearing aid so that could affect uh how he's delivering uh his message on
00:53:00
certain things true so so you know be cautious of that but I think what would be really interesting especially during
00:53:08
this documentary if they could have got Wackadoo one and W Wackadoo Jr into a room and to see what kind of chemistry
00:53:16
would happen and what kind of stories they would tell and what kind of slip-ups they would they
00:53:21
tell but you said something that I fully agree with both stated they couldn't kill somebody well sending a bomb you
00:53:30
are killing somebody but you're not doing the ACT yourself right uh you ask senior who's smart enough to do this oh
00:53:37
my son could he could do anything so uh so that kind of feels like a slip as well but also the thing that really
00:53:49
bothers me is the fact that senior can point to Junior and say um he could have done this and this is why he would have
00:53:56
and then Junior basically says the same thing about his father and maybe they did some um investiga you know here's a
00:54:04
here's my big thing about this investigation that I don't like they had several suspects and they said you know
00:54:10
we we would find out their aliis look sometimes with these cases The Alibi is willing to lie for the
00:54:17
person at the time but if you go back later and start redigging will that person then tell you I don't know if he
00:54:26
was there or not would that alibi crumble mhm well that's what makes this case interesting and unique compared to
00:54:34
a lot of other cases that we've covered the whole thought of The Alibi what kind
00:54:39
of Alibi do you need when a random package shows up that turns out to be a bomb very good point and the thing here
00:54:46
too is back to the hairs back to and this is Ed senior's words this is not me just coming up with this this is them
00:54:53
saying not making up some words why would we have found your hair at their farm and he says well he he had all my
00:54:59
old baseball hats you know my old ball caps he he would take them and they probably had some hairs in there well
00:55:05
guess the whole thing when we talked about what evidence could we find in the letter the packaging the bomb itself
00:55:11
there were two hairs that were found underneath the tape on the box itself on the packaging for this bomb what do we
00:55:20
have here we have Ed Senior explaining way why his hair would be found at the farm we we also have Ed Jr that later
00:55:28
States look they came to me asking me a whole bunch of questions they asked me to submit DNA they asked me to submit
00:55:33
hair samples I answered some of their questions I refused to give them DNA I refused to give them my hair samples I
00:55:39
told them if you're knocking on my door then you're way off the path right just give them your hair man right give them
00:55:46
your hair if they're way off the path and both these dudes got money you know I know I know at least Ed Senior does I
00:55:54
I feel like Ed junr probably does lawyer up give him your hair quit being Shifty
00:56:00
it's it's weird too again again with the whole thing of Ed Senor Throwing Shade any chance he gets he's sitting in front
00:56:08
of the children of his dead friend of his murdered friend onetime friend and he says you know somebody that he even
00:56:15
States was more of a son to him than his own son yeah and he says he was a pig he
00:56:21
was he was a womanizer he was he was a thief he was a criminal you know he was a crook
00:56:26
he and what he's doing in my opinion is he's pointing out a million reasons why it's anybody else other than him to the
00:56:35
to the damn point that he would even take his own son throw him under the bus and say my son's smart enough to do this
00:56:43
I don't think that he did I don't think he has it in his heart but I went down that path myself is what he says yeah
00:56:49
and on top of that the thing that you just pointed out is key here just because these two individuals say I
00:56:56
couldn't have killed anybody guess what that's exactly who they are looking for who the police are looking for if the if
00:57:02
the psychology of past bombers translates to this case that's exactly who they're looking for someone that
00:57:09
doesn't have the ability to strangle someone stab someone shoot someone face to face mhm or even have the guts to be
00:57:17
in the same room with them when this goes down well let me just tell you something the jury they deliberated
00:57:24
they're back from lunch my friend the verdict is out it's in the verdict is in you guys are wackadoos well you you
00:57:35
know what is wacky is that throughout the course of the short interview with Ed Jr he constantly says this the phrase
00:57:45
I was blown away that blew me away over and over again when he's talking about things related to his father and related
00:57:51
to the case right and it's weird to me and I know that it's likely just a slip or maybe it's just a common phrase that
00:57:58
he uses often throughout his life but we're talking about a murdered victim who was blown up right was it a
00:58:05
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00:59:02
today no recommended reading this week but if you want to catch up on our old episodes our old episodes are
00:59:08
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00:59:15
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00:59:21
here in the garage next week until then be good be kind and don't live [Music] [Applause]
00:59:50
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