00:00:00
acorn TV is your home for streaming British crime dramas and mysteries it's the only place you can catch up and
00:00:06
stream the newest season of the UK hit series line of duty a cat-and-mouse thriller from the creator of bodyguard
00:00:13
that takes a probing look into police corruption watch the first episode of season 1 for free at acorn dot TV slash
00:00:20
garage and start a free 30-day trial of acorn TV with promo code garage [Music] [Applause]
00:01:05
welcome to true crime garage wherever you are whatever you were doing thanks for listening I'm your host Nick and
00:01:12
with me as always as a guy that after he passes away he would like to come back as Robocop he is the captain
00:01:19
what buy that for a dollar it's good to be seen and it's good to see you thanks for listening thanks for telling a
00:01:25
friend today we still have a little southern pecan brown ale in the fridge this is by lazy magnolia brewing
00:01:38
southern pecan has an ABV of 4.5% here the pecans are used just like grain and provide a nutty characteristic and a
00:01:47
delightful depth to the flavor profile it's only lightly hopped so the malt flavors come through in a big big way
00:01:54
garage grade 3 and 3/4 bottle caps out of 5 and here's some people to Cheers we have Danny and Springtown Texas also in
00:02:02
the great state of Texas we have cap checking in from Sherman Texas and a big shout to Brian in Half Moon Bay next up
00:02:11
we have Patty and Milton Ontario Canada and big cheers to Alice in Colchester UK
00:02:17
next up we have Nikki in Palos Heights Illinois and last but certainly not least we have Taylor and Jackie and Cary
00:02:24
North Carolina thanks to everybody for helping us out with this week's beer fund if you want to help us out with
00:02:30
next week's beer money go to true crime garage comm and click on that little donate button and if you haven't ordered
00:02:36
your tank top for this season make sure you do so today it's the last day to do so a true-crime garage comm and that's
00:02:44
enough of the business all right everybody gather round grab a chair grab a beer let's talk some true crime
00:02:50
[Music] we were pointing out the things and the facts that we know regarding this case
00:03:16
regarding evidence we also wanted to point out a bunch of the theories that are involved and I gotta tell you
00:03:22
captain there are a lot of them theories and of course some are better than others but we will go through those I
00:03:30
think we should also real quick go through the lack thereof evidence as we mentioned yesterday the actual evidence
00:03:39
right it seems like this crime was taking place outside the home so that makes it even harder to collect the
00:03:46
evidence yeah that's what sheriff said SILS says he believes is that the murders took place elsewhere and we know
00:03:54
that the body was found inside the garage so that's a big part of the reason why I think it makes this
00:04:00
investigation so difficult because this is what you would describe to be as a clean crime scene we have a double
00:04:08
homicide yet we have a very clean crime scene wall ray and we don't know what he
00:04:15
means by not in the house does he mean that the crime happened in the garage did the crime happen in the yard does he
00:04:23
think that the crime happened in a boat I think you're hitting on something very
00:04:27
key to this case here I think we have sheriff sills saying that the murders didn't happen inside the house you have
00:04:38
to wonder is he including the garage to be a part of or a portion of the actual house itself or does he mean that that
00:04:45
is outside of the house well like you said he randomly comes out with more information or more thoughts his own
00:04:53
thoughts of what happened maybe as time goes by he'll then clear up that statement of where he thinks these
00:05:00
crimes took place so what they didn't find as we mentioned we have sales tax went over
00:05:07
the Derman home painstakingly for both fingerprint and luminol evidence looking for blood evidence and the sheriff at
00:05:14
one point even made reference to lasers so the lack of blood anywhere except the
00:05:20
garage led the sheriff to believe that both Shirley and Russell were not killed inside the house in the house are his
00:05:26
words Shirley's head wounds would have been would have caused spatter or blood spray
00:05:32
and she was brutally bludgeoned none was found we still don't know exactly how Russell was killed we can surmise that
00:05:39
it was a head injury as well but again the only blood that was found was the post-mortem decapitation not the fatal
00:05:48
damage to the skull this leads to the obvious conclusion that possibly Russell Derman was killed by being shot in the
00:05:55
back of the head we did have the GSR residue on the back of the collar yeah and you have to follow the evidence yeah
00:06:02
the durman's adult children walk to his sheriff sills through the house and couldn't point to anything that was
00:06:10
missing we have some of the things that were found there too Rolex watches other
00:06:16
jewelry wallets with cash laptops cell phones the fancy cars along with everything else we're all undisturbed as
00:06:25
far as the kids knew nothing it seemed was removed from the home by the killer or killers so what are the more popular
00:06:35
theories in this case captain there are numerous theories there are some cases that in some of these cases
00:06:43
they're quite outlandish you know so we're gonna list the most popular and most likely theories here for you one
00:06:50
that it was a mob hit - one of the Derman kids did it the adult children three it was a hired
00:06:59
professional hit four it was an extortion plot gone wrong five it was someone who had a beef with one or both
00:07:08
of the durman's six it was a case of mistaken identity seven it was simply an insane psycho killer looking for
00:07:18
victim or victims an 8 it was meth heads or other deranged druggies looking for a
00:07:26
big score I think that really rounds out the the most likely theories here because those are all ones that I think
00:07:34
we both contemplated when looking through this case and what evidence is provided to us well I almost want to
00:07:41
throw away the the last one drug he's looking for a big score we don't have it any evidence of a perpetrator being in
00:07:49
the house and we have all these items that could have been taken that would have been huge scores and none of them
00:07:56
taken right so we're I think you give some credence to that theory about the druggies would be we have Russell Derman
00:08:06
who was we know that he went a couple places before he was killed right one he went to the bank
00:08:12
drive through the bank someone could have spotted him there and thought okay well this guy has cash he's accessed
00:08:19
some cash I'm gonna follow him home and then we have the other situation of him picking up a prescription that very same
00:08:25
day that's his next errand right and so you got that double whammy factor there of okay this guy might have cash he we
00:08:33
know he went and picked up a prescription of some sort mm-hm and he goes back to this big beautiful home so
00:08:40
I think that's where that gets some credence the problem with that is if that is the motive why the hell didn't
00:08:48
they take anything her prescription medication was found on the counter we also have jewelry
00:08:54
expensive Julie jewelry Rolex watches cash things that were not taken from that house I have to believe if it's
00:09:02
somebody looking to score in that manner they're not gonna walk away from this situation empty-handed
00:09:09
and you'd think these would be quick kills and decapitation let's just say it it's it's a lot of extra work and on top
00:09:18
of that then you take somebody with you and then you tie bricks to their their feet and to dump them somewhere else
00:09:27
this is a bunch of extra work to write it this doesn't seem like to me that crime
00:09:34
scenes should be sloppier if this is the motive and as you mentioned faster the method of killing and getting the hell
00:09:43
out of there they're in the master the it could be a blow to each one on their heads grab some stuff and go right the
00:09:51
old smash-and-grab so I think let's check that one off the list because it doesn't check enough boxes to to warrant
00:09:58
being a likely situation doesn't make any sense to me yeah so the mob hit angle sheriff sills admitted that this
00:10:06
was on his list it was in you know through the course of his first thoughts regarding this
00:10:13
investigation this mainly because when he saw the body in the garage had no head one of the first things he did was
00:10:21
he called the feds to determine whether Russel and Shirley were perhaps in a witness protection program and he
00:10:27
learned that in fact they were not nonetheless many people seemed to online like this theory that the durman's were
00:10:36
possibly whacked right because they both originated from New Jersey you know land
00:10:41
of The Sopranos and whatnot and some people believing that the decapitation could be seen as a mafia signature proof
00:10:49
of death something like that I I don't know I think that this is one of those situations where this becomes a theory
00:10:58
when all other theories fail when you kind of run out of ideas this seems like a move to go to mm-hmm
00:11:07
not so fast my friend either I think we have the attacks happening outside of the house again we don't know where
00:11:16
sheriff believes those two happen but to me the decapitation with evidence of a gunshot is a sign
00:11:27
something it's to send a message to somebody agreed and then also to bodies and to different spots they could have
00:11:37
killed her and left her right beside him mm-hmm they could also get decapitated her they
00:11:42
didn't they put her in a body of water to me that's a sign of something so again you don't have to be a part of a
00:11:53
witness protection program to just have some connections correct that may be for
00:12:00
whatever reason something went bad and and and now it's time to pay up well I don't think that that was a method of
00:12:08
dismissing this theory I think it was a method of of shirring up the theory you know what I mean like okay well let's at
00:12:17
least check this out to see if they were in witness protection right because if they were boom that's the angle this
00:12:23
investigation is going to go I don't think you can cross this one off the list for several reasons many that you
00:12:29
already pointed out but one that the cleanliness of the crime scene the movements of the victims and that
00:12:36
nothing appears to have been taken you know that that seems like you said where we have a situation where somebody is
00:12:44
getting retribution for something there's something very strange to me that we have evidence of a gunshot wound
00:12:51
to the head you you would see a lot more blood mm-hmm you'd see a lot more spatter hmm and why would you shoot
00:13:03
somebody and then decapitate them right if that that's a that's a I don't know well as you pointed out and that's the
00:13:10
same thing that a lot of people point out here is that the removal of rustles had and and I you know let's let's not
00:13:17
forget that this is probably the most morbid case we've we've covered there's the lado going around talking
00:13:23
about a severed head well again we should point out though there is the lake that very big lake nearby I I can
00:13:32
agree with most people when they say that it seems likely that maybe the head was discarded of it in the lake at
00:13:39
somewhere some point but nonetheless the the removal of the head is a sign of disrespect as people point
00:13:48
out or perhaps was a message to someone else and some people even point out maybe it was a message to his sons
00:13:56
because remember his sons at some point took over the restaurant business they um and there's quite a bit hidden
00:14:03
franchises yeah I think we said he had 19 franchises at one time Wow that he sold to his sons and so if in
00:14:11
fact that there was some kind of mafia ties or this was a mob hit the speculation is that maybe his restaurant
00:14:22
business or the sons businesses which was his at one time somehow involved the mob or the
00:14:29
the Mafia while I understand that this is deep speculation but well what about a son with a gambling problem hmm a lot
00:14:38
of times they go well we're not killing the guy with a gambling problem because he's the only way we're gonna get our
00:14:44
money back but we can kill his parents hmm and we're gonna do it in such such a malicious way that we're gonna get our
00:14:53
payment especially if they know the person has the money well then I think that makes for a good segue into one of
00:15:00
the other theories that we mentioned that the possibility that one of the Derman kids did it
00:15:06
so the tough thing here is we know that they were all questioned we know that they're all all of them were cooperative
00:15:13
we don't know of one of them lawyering up hmm but we know of right and they all took polygraph tests right so you're
00:15:22
gonna tell me that all three of them are geniuses and figured out on the past the
00:15:26
polygraph test well and like you said they were cooperative they were all personally interviewed by sheriff sills
00:15:34
face-to-face interviews separately several times each none of them lived in the area and their
00:15:42
cell phone records for the days of May 1st through May 6th show that they were not anywhere near Lake Oconee right each
00:15:52
of them as you said took polygraph exams they pass those it seems the kids were pretty
00:15:57
close to the parents as well the the other problem with this is that a lot of people point out that this is a likely
00:16:06
scenario because the kids stood to benefit from their parents deaths where no one else seemed to on the surface
00:16:14
right and some people have even said that their behavior was seen as aloof or uncaring because they all returned home
00:16:22
very quickly after this situation I love how everybody judges how other people should react after a death mm-hmm
00:16:30
well people also point out that of course they were intimately familiar with the durman's house with their
00:16:36
routine and with the area but the problem with that thought of the kids benefiting right so how you know Keith
00:16:45
Lesley Brad how would they benefit Russell and Shirley durman's they provided for their children after their
00:16:53
death they had set up a will that would provide for all three of them to split the estate evenly in the event of their
00:17:00
deaths this of course could be pointed out for a motive for murder each one of them stood to inherit quite a bit but
00:17:07
the determent but the durman's were almost 90 years old so whoever stood to inherit this money could have just
00:17:16
waited a few more years for them to pass on naturally it depends on how big of a
00:17:22
pickle you're in well that's interesting because it seems like nothing has come out about any of Keith Leslie or Brad
00:17:30
having significant money troubles well I wonder what the arrangement was on buying the franchise's you know yeah I
00:17:38
mean like were they paying their father payments did they get a loan through the
00:17:44
bank to buy these things I cannot say for certain it sounds to me like it was a pretty quick change of hands right
00:17:53
because I just wonder if if a bunch of the franchisors are failing or one of the the sons is stealing money from it
00:18:01
and that's the reason why it's failing well get rid of the old man and get rid of our mother as well and
00:18:08
now we don't have to pay these off he's just become ours right but but here's some here's some difficulties here okay
00:18:15
but before we move on you mentioned financial issues yeah there is a rumor out there I couldn't back this up what I
00:18:24
the the only solid statement I could find was that nothing has come out about any of Keith Leslie or Brad having
00:18:31
significant money troubles the rumor that is out there is that there may have been a lien on one of their homes I
00:18:38
don't know which one of the children yeah but the it could be for nothing really some sometimes there's liens on
00:18:45
people's property like a tax lien leaf they forgot to pay their property taxes so they got a tax lien or something it
00:18:51
could be a mistake right and that that seems like a very man it seems like a very small motive to kill your parents
00:19:02
you know what I mean so and the and the manner in which it's done I mean that has to play that's
00:19:09
that's evidence that we have that has to play it a factor and when we're looking
00:19:14
at these individuals well I like but I I could see you know some issue with your
00:19:22
father I mean I look at the was the one that we did the American doctor mm-hmm I
00:19:29
mean here's the situation brutal murder cuts off the fingers of the Father that is vicious and I think it was postmortem
00:19:41
but again we have a severed head post-mortem is there something in the family's past is there some sexual abuse
00:19:52
that happened is there was there any physical abuse that happened that would cause one of the kids to snap if there
00:20:03
was there's nothing to indicate anything like no no record of it every every bit
00:20:07
of evidence that sheriff sills says that he has found regarding the family seems
00:20:12
that they were there were close even you know even though not by proximity but they were close in that they had a
00:20:18
loving relationship with their parents you mentioned something just a second ago though that I wanted
00:20:24
to piggyback on there you said the manner and meant in the manner in which this these murders were carried out so
00:20:33
while staying on the idea of the kids were the only ones that had financial motive to gain from the murders of their
00:20:42
parents right let's point out that if one of them did it or all of them did it let's say why would they try to hide
00:20:50
Shirley's body because if her body weren't found which was most likely the intent of whoever dumped her in the lake
00:20:58
right it would tie up the durman's estate since she would have inherited from Russell meaning the kids wouldn't
00:21:06
receive any money until she could be declared legally dead this would take place seven years after her
00:21:11
disappearance all right but most criminals and most murders are not geniuses so it it might not be something
00:21:19
they were thinking of does that make sense no it makes sense but it's again it's I see your point I'm pointing out
00:21:29
that if you're going to tie up the estate of the people you kill and maybe they didn't know that these people are
00:21:34
87 years old right I mean how how much longer are they going to live naturally without risking your your own hide of
00:21:44
going to prison for the rest of your life or getting the death sentence right you know because if if she can't be
00:21:50
declared legally dead if she's never found and I believe that that seems to me to be the intent of going to all that
00:21:57
trouble to putting her in the deepest part of the lake tying the body down this would accomplish actually the
00:22:04
opposite of the theoretical goal to kill the parents for money well there's a gunshot do we believe we believe there's
00:22:15
some evidence of it right so we believe there's a gunshot so to me it's like TV did you take the head afterwards because
00:22:23
you thought there was a way to trace back the gun that's that's a big looming question in my brain the other one is
00:22:30
did you know it was the deepest part of the lake because to me that would now we're
00:22:38
narrowing the search because if the person knew that was the deepest part then they'd have to have knowledge yes
00:22:46
of that Lakes I believe that the the whoever did this whoever dumped the body of surely knew
00:22:53
that that was one of the deeper parts of the lake yeah and that's the answer came
00:22:57
change and I only say that because we went over how big the lake was the chances of somebody just you know
00:23:04
happening to that to that area just just getting to that area by luck let's say seems unprofitable to me improbable
00:23:14
thank you well and I what I also wonder and I have some friends that live on rivers and things like that and
00:23:25
obviously different neighbors that like canoe and kayaks a lot of those individuals that use the water more they
00:23:34
know more about the system but I also wondered happenstance right the deepest part of the water is that also the most
00:23:45
remote part of the water and so is it happenstance because it just so happen to be a spy that there's not as many
00:23:55
people around again I don't know the the water system that well I don't know that
00:24:02
Lake in particular but the way that that area is described to me would be an area
00:24:07
that was somewhat familiar with or a popular fishing location within the lake hmm so one of the other theories that we
00:24:16
touch upon or I'll say then that makes you sort of catch off but that makes you wonder is this a fisherman is this a
00:24:23
hunter gunshot dumped into the body and arresting one of the other theories is was this a hired slash professional hit
00:24:35
I think there's a lot of factors in within this theory that are similar to maybe the mob hit
00:24:42
or of mob killing the other thing though too is you have to wonder could the could one of the children hired have
00:24:51
hired somebody to carry this out it's so difficult because this keeps I keep going back to the fact that they're
00:24:58
cooperative and they all pass polygraphs tests and I would assume that during that test there was going to be did you
00:25:04
kill your parents did you hire somebody to kill your parents right do you know of another sibling hiring
00:25:10
somebody to kill your parents you you would assume those questions would be asked and none of the kids
00:25:15
turned on each other at any point there doesn't seem to be any squabbling going on within within the ranks there mm-hmm
00:25:23
and I think there's a cup I think there's credence to this theory I think there's also a few holes with this
00:25:32
theory I think what you hit upon earlier of the it's likely because of the GSR found on Russell's shirt it seems that
00:25:41
there was a gun involved and that he was likely shot in the head then the head is
00:25:46
removed that seems it seems perhaps that Russell's head may have been removed because of a bullet was lodged in it
00:25:54
they could have been traceable to the Hitman right and could give the police information about what type of gun was
00:26:01
used so this seems to be a pretty significant area I think the the motive for the head removal is as important as
00:26:10
the motive for the murders in the first place or while why any of this went down
00:26:14
at all in the first place but so this seems like seems like also a kind of a sophisticated killer that would say all
00:26:24
right well I have to remove this head now because I'm with this I'm also removing evidence connecting me to the
00:26:31
actual murder right but then you have a situation where you have to factor in a mistake that was made the waiting down
00:26:41
of Shirley's body which eventually comes to the surface and and then is found and
00:26:47
so that there is the hole in this theory where you're saying okay it could be a sophisticated killer that was a hit a
00:26:55
hired hit or a professional hit on this couple so but also you'd think this person is removing a head in order
00:27:04
to remove evidence you would think one they're not scared of cutting open a person so they're not scared of stabbing
00:27:13
the individual in the stomach and the intestines to get rid of the gases that are gonna bring the body up to the top
00:27:19
well that among other reasons is why sheriff's elza's is quick to point out that look if this was a professional hit
00:27:28
man they would know that a body would surface despite the concrete blocks when in advanced stages of decomp
00:27:36
decomposition then some people point out that the killer's didn't care if Shirley's body surface that they just
00:27:44
wanted to buy some time to get away and cause confusion as people searched for Shirley I like sheriff sills take on
00:27:53
this where he says you know the removal of the head seems like a sophisticated hit but under that situation whoever
00:28:03
carried this out would have known that that the Shirley's body would surface at some point
00:28:09
[Music] we all want a haven a place that feels uniquely you with joy bird you get
00:28:20
one-of-a-kind furniture crafted to your unique taste turn your ideas into reality with hundreds of styles and
00:28:27
options from rich buttery leather to the plushest velvet you've ever felt want a
00:28:32
sofa in aquatic blue a loveseat and bubblegum pink if you can dream it joy bird can make it a reality they even
00:28:39
have a beautiful selection of outdoor sofas lounge chairs and tables plus the free personal design consultants can
00:28:47
help nail down your design joy bird also offers a range of kid and pet friendly upholstery options so that your
00:28:54
creations can stand the test of time best of all thanks to their 365 day home trial if you don't love your joy bird
00:29:02
you can return it for a full refund see how joy bird can help you design your dream space find your joy today at
00:29:09
joy bird comm slash garage you can create the furniture that brings you joy that's joy bird comm slash garage and
00:29:17
receive an exclusive offer for 25% off your first order by using the code garage find your joy today at Joey bird
00:29:25
comm / garage take coloring your hair at home to the next level with Madison Reed
00:29:31
you deserve gorgeous professional hair color delivered to your door for less than $25 that's right you can treat
00:29:38
yourself for less than $25 for decades women only had two options for coloring their hair aisle dated at home hair
00:29:45
color or the time and the expense of a salon many Madison Reid clients comment how their new hair color has improved
00:29:52
their lives women love the results gorgeous shiny multi-dimensional healthy looking hair
00:29:58
Madison Reed delivers grey covering game-changing color you can do at home and look as if you just came from the
00:30:06
salon what makes Madison Reid color unique is that it is crafted by master colorist who blend nuances of light dark
00:30:13
cool and warm to create over 45 gorgeous multi-tonal shades we recommend Madison
00:30:20
berry to our listeners because we have seen the results you're going to love the quality the
00:30:26
the affordability you deserve beautiful hair delivered to your door for less than $25 you deserve to treat yourself
00:30:32
for less than $25 find your perfect shade at mass in - read calm true-crime garage listeners get 10% off plus free
00:30:40
shipping on their first color kit with promo code garage that's code garage at Madison - read calm maths and read treat
00:30:49
yo'self if there is something interfering with your happiness or preventing you from achieving your goals
00:30:55
better help online counseling can help better help offers licensed professional counselors who are specialized in issues
00:31:02
such as depression anxiety relationships trauma anger family conflicts LGBT matters grief self-esteem and more
00:31:10
connect with your professional counselor and a safe and private online environment and get help at your own
00:31:16
time and at your own pace anything that you share is confidential it's so convenient you can schedule secured
00:31:23
video or phone sessions as well as chat and text with your therapist if for some
00:31:28
reason you are not happy with your counselor though you can request a new one at any time for no additional charge
00:31:34
best of all it's a truly affordable option true-crime garage listeners even get 10% off your first month with
00:31:41
discount code garage so why not get started today go to better help calm slash garage yeah go to better help calm
00:31:49
slash garage then simply fill out a questionnaire to help them assess your needs get matched with the counselor
00:31:54
you'll love that's better help calm slash garage [Music] all right we're back cheers Cheers
00:32:11
cheers Cheers so continuing along the path here captain one of the theories that has
00:32:18
been presented that I think has some weight to it is it was someone the killer was someone or someone's who had
00:32:25
a beef with one or both of the durman's now keep in mind this is a very general theory and could really include anyone
00:32:34
who crossed paths with the durman's at any time in their long lives I think a lot of aspects about this theory go
00:32:43
along with some of the other theories that we've already discussed so I don't know how much we have to spin our tires
00:32:49
on this one because there are aspects within this theory that would fall into things like you know the the Mafia had
00:32:57
the hired hit professional hired hit or that the one of the Derman adult children did it right the other one that
00:33:07
we got into a little bit and we we just kind of referenced it in yesterday's show is that this could be a case of
00:33:15
mistaken identity now I want to point out that there is not really a lot to this theory there's not a lot to back it
00:33:24
up just that the killer or killers mistook Shirley and Russell for someone else someone that they had intended to
00:33:31
rob or extort for Mark or murder for any number of reasons with a crime this inexplicable though with seemingly no
00:33:40
motive this could be plausible of course the mailbox outside of their home it very clearly read Derman on it
00:33:50
and very big letters I guess if the killer arrived by boat maybe they wouldn't have noticed that yeah but it
00:33:58
to me seems seems far-fetched it seems like again under this situation the killer or killers very likely would have
00:34:09
no ties to the durman's themselves if it's mistaken identity so as you pointed out several times why all
00:34:17
this movement with the victims why so much work being conducted to to lead you to murder and then to hide the murders
00:34:28
or convolute the crime scene after the fact it's just adding to your risk level of getting caught or seen during the
00:34:38
course of any of that of those actions and I just wonder the location what if these murders took place on the water
00:34:47
like on a boat you know I mean because then you're not moving her from the house you're returning Russell to the
00:34:59
house mm-hmm I got some very opinionated thoughts on on the murders themselves and if I dive into that now it won't
00:35:12
make as much sense but you're you're kind of tapping on the window there of what some of my thoughts are so another
00:35:21
idea is that it was some type of insane psycho killer who was just looking for victims the other thought that it would
00:35:29
be you know fall under the lines of some type of thrill kill striking it random to satisfy some murderous rage or that
00:35:37
was the work of a serial killer I have some issues with with that thought where I don't say it's impossible it could
00:35:46
certainly be the case but it seems to me again a lot of movements here's the thing if
00:35:53
you're going to if you're striking at random to fulfill some murderous rage a lot of times we've reviewed a lot of
00:35:59
those cases those types of cases and when we've seen those typically the officers described the scene as a
00:36:06
bloodbath and this is not the situation at the durman's home at all right and furthermore it's not as it doesn't
00:36:15
appear to be any type of sex crime there's no sexual assault or rape involved and then on top of that we have
00:36:21
this - if it's the work of the serial killer but where is the series of crimes it
00:36:28
Just Desserts - it just doesn't hold up to me that I don't think that any of those things work unless it's one of
00:36:36
those weird situations where we have somebody that sets out to to put together this fantastical murder scene
00:36:46
and then they just stop did that whatever for whatever it did it showed them or it where the [ __ ] it satisfied
00:36:56
that exactly exam out but yeah you'd think there'd be something you know within that you know closer to within
00:37:05
that time period another murder and something similar I keep going back to the thought that this is some type of
00:37:12
heist and I know that the big problem with that and this is the problem where I keep I keep scraping my brain here
00:37:20
because I'm like nothing was taken now that we know that we know of let's play that's the problem
00:37:26
yeah and I'm glad that you bring that up because some of the stuff like Rolex that no that doesn't mean [ __ ] to some
00:37:33
people but what if they have their saw them there's problems with the Rolex and in items like that too because if you're
00:37:40
looking to turn that into money that can lead to you getting caught right we don't know if they had stacks and stacks
00:37:49
of cash somewhere I bet there's things that their kids didn't even know about is there some item that they had that
00:37:59
was worth a lot of money or possibly was worth a lot of money hmm or do they have stacks and stacks of
00:38:07
cash that maybe they didn't tell anybody about and somebody found out about it again my problem with this idea is why
00:38:17
kill her in that fashion why dump her into the water why decapitate this guy mm-hm you don't
00:38:25
have to do that to get the prize yeah yeah to me that to me it's points in every sign of you are gonna suffer
00:38:35
whether it's her gonna suffer or he's going to suffer somebody's gonna suffer so yeah well here's one thing that that
00:38:46
I want to really kind of dive into here does it got a lot of opinions on this all right it's been pointed out by
00:38:54
sheriff sills that he thinks and this is after years I mean he says he wakes up thinking about this case and all he can
00:39:04
come up with is that this whole whatever was supposed to go down just didn't go down the way that it was supposed to and
00:39:13
that's why we are left with so many questions really what little answers we do have and what little evidence we do
00:39:22
have just adds to the long list of questions well I think we have to remember that sometimes things just
00:39:30
don't make sense that sometimes things just don't add up well his general thought is that it was
00:39:37
the original idea was some type of heist that this was some type of extortion plot that just went wrong his thoughts
00:39:46
are that maybe whoever came to their home they were trying to get from the durman's either something that the
00:39:57
durman's just didn't have right or didn't have access to it could be the wrong person like you said somebody goes
00:40:05
and hears that this couple has something they show up it's the wrong house let us
00:40:13
into the safe give us this piece what about this piece of art whatever it is we don't have that we don't know what
00:40:19
you're talking about that goes into gun accidentally going off boom killing the guy now we got to
00:40:27
take his head because we hate we'll even behind evidence this is plausible well I
00:40:34
think let's talk about some home invasions that we have discussed already on the show in the past because I think
00:40:42
when I see that when I see the crime scene when I when they describe what it is they're what is left the how mister
00:40:53
mr. Derman was dressed everything appears to me that this was some type of home invasion it looks to me like these
00:41:03
two individuals were just in their home or on their property going about their day and at some point they're disrupted
00:41:11
by who would end up being the killer or killers or in a situation and so along that thought of a possible home invasion
00:41:20
in the past the home invasions that we've covered the ones that come to mind right now the Aurora hammer Slayer
00:41:27
Colorado 1984 mm-hmm this is a child rapist child killer Alexander Ewing he killed several people
00:41:36
the motive there is rape that's why he entered the home right okay and very likely rape and murder this guy was was
00:41:45
a homicidal maniac yeah he said these also were very messy crime scenes so we know that the we have
00:41:55
to go off of the rape was very likely not the motive because that just didn't happen then we have a situation where we
00:42:03
have like the the cheshire murders we have the DC mansion murders and we have Barry and honey Sherman who have we
00:42:11
talked about yeah it still it's still fascinating to me that the Barry and honey Sherman is not solved I know it
00:42:19
just took place in 2017 this is another situation where there's a very clean crime scene but the situation here is we
00:42:29
have with the cheshire murders the motive was money and rape DC mansion murders money Barry and honey Sherman
00:42:38
it's a little it's a little undetermined and undecided what exactly the motive was there's thought that it could have
00:42:46
been money could have been for revenge I think most people point to revenge as Barry seems to have created a lot of
00:42:55
work enemies throughout the throughout his career but in the cheshire murders its money and rape DC mansion murders
00:43:05
money Perry and honey Sherman undetermined possibly revenge so when we look at all
00:43:12
those cases when we look at those four cases the only possibilities that we're left with is that the motive would be
00:43:18
money and/or revenge right so let's kind of tape table that just for a moment and
00:43:25
and just kind of can we agree that the most likely motive here is either money or revenge or both mm-hmm so one thing
00:43:34
that I'm going to kind of just throw out there I don't have any answers to this I
00:43:38
I've I've been trying to come up with answers for this for the past few days every time I come up with what I think
00:43:45
is a good answer I then realize that it's probably not but one thing that sheriff sills has said in some of his
00:43:53
interviews that I think is incredibly interesting remember we have the neighbor who says that they saw a man in
00:44:03
the durman's yard on that Saturday yeah and remember we said well can we believe
00:44:11
this witness or not and we have sheriff sills on record in front of the camera saying he believes this individual and
00:44:18
when asked why he believes this individual he says I believe them because of what they didn't see tells me
00:44:27
that they are telling the truth I don't know what that means right I think what it could mean is that law enforcement
00:44:36
does have something some piece of evidence that they have not told us about to indicate that there is some
00:44:42
something of fact that they know that this individual was able to tell them was not on this person or with this
00:44:53
person that they saw to back that up so if sheriff sills believes this individual I believe this individual so
00:45:03
where I go to with this extortion plot gone wrong think about both the DC mansion murders in the Cheshire murders
00:45:11
what happened in both of those situations both of those were well-to-do families
00:45:18
and the DC mansion murders those people were extremely wealthy but in both situations when the killers got into the
00:45:26
home what did they find especially in the Cheshire murders they found that there wasn't a bunch of valuable things
00:45:33
in here or there items and we don't want to leave with items we need cash right and in the Cheshire case there was no
00:45:42
cash in the house we get to the DC mansion murders there was cash in the house but there were guns in that same
00:45:51
location the victim didn't want this man to be to know that there were guns in the house right because likely the
00:45:57
offender was going to get to those guns before he was going to get to those guns
00:46:01
mm-hmm so in both cases we have a situation where somebody spots this fancy house of these well-to-do people
00:46:09
and they assume that there might be a pile of cash inside the house then they get into the situation and they realize
00:46:17
that it's not that and now holy [ __ ] my plan is not gonna work out the way that
00:46:22
I thought it would be I actually think in this situation we're probably dealing with somewhat of some maybe some
00:46:29
slightly sophisticated people in the sense that I think they put a lot of time and effort into the thoughts of
00:46:34
carrying out how they were going to extort these people I think that the evidence will point that this was very
00:46:43
likely the situation I think that Russell was held at the home and in the garage I actually believe he was very
00:46:54
likely shot with a single shot to the head in the garage and I think that yes there there's not a whole lot of
00:47:02
evidence to suggest that but there are ways to go about that to help make sure that that doesn't happen and in the
00:47:12
course of that then now we have the body that was moved slightly had removed and
00:47:16
then then towels put down so that the blood would not seep out from the garage door onto onto the driveway which may
00:47:24
alert somebody that something horrible is happening inside this house but I think what went down is
00:47:31
and this is a little complicated but I think somebody pulled up in a boat near their home or even possibly at their
00:47:40
dock went into the house and it had to have been more than one person under my scenario very I think surely was removed
00:47:50
from the home and I think Russell was kept at the home and I think that whatever they thought they were going to
00:47:56
get from these people they could extort it through Russell by saying we've got your wife elsewhere she's on the boat
00:48:04
she's on a boat and Alan this big lake and furthermore we can take her wherever we want to at this point you we need you
00:48:13
to stay here stay behind so we can get from you whatever it is we came to intended to get and I think I think that
00:48:23
then what happened was that they realized this is not so simple that just like the Cheshire Eyre murders and the
00:48:30
DC mansion murders [ __ ] whatever we came to get they don't have that in this house yeah or the fact that
00:48:38
Russell was a world war two vet and maybe took his chances I think that plays into it and we're talking about
00:48:45
people that didn't even have ATM cards so then what if they what if the killer finds himself in a situation where not
00:48:51
only do they not have what I came here to get they can't easily access it without or gain access to it without me
00:48:58
getting noticed right you know because let's go in your garage let's get in your car so we could go to the ATM and
00:49:07
you can get me some money since you'll have any money here I don't have a ATM card mm-hmm
00:49:12
are you lying to me old man no I don't have one I'm with you I think that Russ being a world war two vet I think at
00:49:22
some point he turned and he went after this person yeah and I think that that led to his demise I'm not saying he did
00:49:32
anything wrong no because I think you need to yeah I think look in a lot of these cases if you don't go after the
00:49:39
person you have no chance and I just keep hearing about these cases when I'm talking to these
00:49:44
detectives and cops working on new cases for the show and they'll say you have this guy kidnapped this girl and she had
00:49:54
1012 chances to run and never did mm-hm or had five or six chances to fight back and she never did and and
00:50:03
they still caught the person but but she might have been able to save her own life mm-hmm and I just can't get over
00:50:10
that you know the the percentage is you know or not in your favor if you don't fight back in the DC case they had to
00:50:21
have somebody bring money to the home to pay the person that was holding them captive yeah the durman's likely didn't
00:50:30
have somebody to do this in the cheshire case they took the mother to the bank and had her withdraw money yeah and they
00:50:40
picked they picked up one of the individuals on surveillance and the mother was brave enough to tip off the
00:50:46
people at the bank which ended up leading to the capture and arrest of the two individuals that carried out those
00:50:53
horrible crimes I think we have a situation where maybe the offenders got into a situation where they realize
00:50:59
this isn't going to go the way that I want and when it wasn't going the way that they wanted they either carried out
00:51:06
one of their threats against Shirley and that's when Russell lashed out or that it just the situation just got
00:51:14
murky and Russell last latched out we're talking about world war two veteran we're talking about these winners in
00:51:23
SATs yeah we're under stand that he's old but we're talking about a generation of men and women that saved the entire
00:51:32
world I mean think about that for a minute these are people that aren't going to back down and what I think
00:51:42
happened here is that these individuals very likely got away with very little if
00:51:48
anything from the home and murder to people for no reason at all at the end of the day with no gain
00:51:55
and the two-person theory makes quite a bit of sense but I feel like it's also a
00:52:05
risky move because if you have her out on the water it seems like you could be surrounded easier I think very likely
00:52:13
the movement of the victims would be by some type of design and by necessity these outcomes are the result of a
00:52:23
designed attack structured by resources and tools that the offenders had with them the killer killers accessed and
00:52:31
left the property in my opinion via boat so that means that one of the offenders
00:52:38
either owned or borrowed a boat at the time of these murders I think that these men are not criminals in the sense that
00:52:48
they are not thugs but I think they do have some form of street smarts I think there's probably a leader of this group
00:52:57
and people closest to him like his his wife or girlfriend will know him to be a liar manipulative
00:53:04
he is some form of a small gambler he is someone that not only believes in cheating the system he likely brags to
00:53:16
his significant other about stealing from his employer whether it be money materials or time I think it's also
00:53:24
somebody that hates Authority because through his delusional opinion of himself in his intelligence he thinks he
00:53:31
is the authority I think the important thing here to keep in mind and to really focus on are some factors of who's who
00:53:42
these guys could be I think that at least two or more of these guys are probably into hunting and fishing at
00:53:53
least one of them owned a boat at the time of the murders or borrowed one from someone that he is close to and I think
00:54:01
that that's where you might be able to get the crack in your case where if we have somebody that can come forward
00:54:09
and say look I know so-and-so and they were out with their buddies on a quote-unquote fishing trip and gone for
00:54:19
a large portion of that day were gone for a long period of time and maybe when that individual returned they weren't
00:54:28
the same so the boat I think is the key to to finding this person and like you captain I believe that at least one of
00:54:38
these individuals had a good knowledge a good understanding of that Lake and for
00:54:44
that I feel that out of our offenders I believe that at least two of them were somewhat local to this crime
00:54:52
meaning that they lived in one of the four counties where Lake Oconee is this may also require them to drive and own
00:55:02
some type of vehicle that would allow them to move a boat where this case could get some legs is if in fact there
00:55:10
were multiple multiple offenders as I pointed out they're very likely was one leader we're leaders amongst that group
00:55:18
I think that somewhere in that group there might be somebody who is somewhat of a victim themselves even though they
00:55:25
went along with this plot I think that it's somebody that was told that we were not going to hurt anybody we have
00:55:32
nothing to lose we have everything to gain all we're going to do is go out there and we're gonna make some money
00:55:39
and at the end of the day that didn't happen and at the end of the day two people were brutally murdered I think
00:55:47
that there's a chance that this individual feels that they've been bullied because of that situation they
00:55:52
went along with something they didn't fully understand something they didn't fully agree with they've remained quiet
00:55:57
to this day probably out of fear of the leader or the others in the group what we need is somebody that knows one of
00:56:07
these individuals that knew that they were out on the water that day that knows them to be truly a despicable
00:56:14
person to come forward with that information give that name so they can be looked at so they can be interviewed
00:56:21
or we need one member of that group to break rank and to come forward and not allow the others in the group to bully
00:56:30
them or threaten them further and say look this is what I did this is who was involved this is how and why we did it
00:56:39
and turn those other individuals in one that's the only way you're ever going to
00:56:44
free yourself of the threat of bodily harm or murder to yourself and to this is something you probably feel extremely
00:56:55
guilty for and you should but coming forward and telling the truth is the first step and freeing yourself of the
00:57:04
weight of that guilt now five years after the murders we still have very few clues as to who murdered Russell and
00:57:12
sure Lederman we don't know why or fully how or when these brutal attacks on this
00:57:18
couple occurred but there may be some hope as of March 2019 sheriff sills says he has a gut feeling about who's
00:57:28
responsible for the murders intuition based on his decades as a lawman he says these are two people who have been
00:57:40
interviewed and who have refused polygraph tests he told the media as far back as May 2015 that he had a person of
00:57:51
interest who had not been truthful with him but he doesn't have enough to elevate that person to a suspect
00:57:59
sheriff sills has always said that he believed the case involved more than one killer and then it was someone who knew
00:58:07
the durman's or whom the durman's likely knew in return he adds this was a planned target attack not randomized
00:58:17
violence but it is also indicative of a local someone very familiar with the lake he says he is convinced the killers
00:58:28
arrived by boat but in recent months he says he's less sure of that but we know that he has at least one piece of
00:58:36
forensic evidence that he will not reveal SILS has like in this case to that of Tara Grinstead which broke after
00:58:44
a phone call to police 12 years after the fact and resulted in the arrest of two suspects who were not on
00:58:51
investigators radar just like the frustrated sheriff and the Derman family all we can do now is wait to see if
00:59:00
something breaks acorn TV is your home for streaming British crime dramas and mysteries it's the only place you can
00:59:21
catch up and stream the newest season of the UK hit series line-of-duty a cat-and-mouse thriller from the creator
00:59:27
of bodyguard that takes a probing look into police corruption watch the first episode of season 1 for free at a corne
00:59:36
TV slash garage and start a free 30-day trial of acorn tv with promo code garage
00:59:43
whatever struggles you are facing from depression and anxiety to trauma and grief better help can connect you with a
00:59:50
professional counselor and a safe and private online environment it's so convenient you can schedule secure video
00:59:56
or phone sessions as well as chat and text with your therapist and anything that you share is completely
01:00:02
confidential best of all it's a truly affordable option true-crime garage listeners even get 10% off your first
01:00:08
month with discount code garage so why not get started simply go to better help calm slash garage and fill out a
01:00:16
questionnaire to get matched with a counselor you'll love today check out better help calm slash garage alright
01:00:22
and make sure you check us out on the stitcher app it's free you can get all of our old episodes and check out our
01:00:28
other show off the record available only on stitcher premium until next time be good be kind and don't let it
01:00:44
[Music] [Applause] [Music]