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Welcome to Off the Record. I'm your host Nick Crime. It's good to be seen. And it's good to see you. Off the record.
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Thanks for listening. Thanks for telling a friend. True Crime podcast. Be good. Be kind. And don't live. Crime. Gather
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around. Grab a chair. Grab a beer. Let's talk some ground. Welcome back to Missing. I am Tim here
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today with Lance. Lance, how are you today? I am doing fantastic today, Tim. I hope the listeners out there are doing
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fantastic as well. And Tim, I hope you're doing fantastic. I know the two guys that we have on this part two
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episode. I know they started off a little apprehensive because uh Captain was nervous to talk to you because he
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was afraid that you were so mad at him. But Tim, are you still mad? I am not. Uh, and I I have not been holding any
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kind of grudge um against Captain. Um, but uh, so yes, this is part two of our two-part conversation with Captain and
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Nick of True Crime Garage. First half, we talked a little bit about Mora Murray's disappearance from North
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Haveril, New Hampshire in February of 2004. And in this conversation, we speak a little bit about the disappearance of
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Brian Schaefer from Columbus, Ohio. And he went missing in April of 2006. And this is an extension of the
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conversation that we had with Captain and Nick when we visited them in the in the garage, in the proverbial garage. It
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was more like a kitchen table and then a studio, but the uh the overall arching concept is the true crime garage. So, it
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was refreshing to hear their thoughts on Brian's disappearance today and how these details have come up in the
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meantime and how they've had to adjust and go along with the realities of what comes with a missing person. You know
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what I mean? Because in the beginning, you're talking about a missing person and they start to appear one way in your
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head and you don't realize, hey, maybe they had these circumstances going on in their family or their friends or their
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their romantic life or something like that. So, revisiting this conversation a few years later after visiting with them
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in person was again very refreshing and very revealing. Okay, so we hope you enjoy part two of our conversation with
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True Crime Garage. Make sure to check out what they're up to at trueg.com and follow us on social media
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at missingcsm. We're going to take a quick break here for commercial and we're going to be right back with
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Captain and Nick. We have a timeline of the case, but the most important timeline of
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Brian's is from like, let's say, 12 to two on the night he goes missing. And then you have the pre-timeline and then
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you have the post timeline of when he goes missing. But you don't even know if those matter or not. You know, you you
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find out that maybe he had a homosexual relationship with one of his friends. You find out that um you know that he
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had more conflict with his dad than his dad was leading on to believe. You you find out that the dad had no alibi. You
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found out you find out that police actually took cadaavver dogs to Brian's dad's house and you go it does that mean
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something? Does it mean nothing? Is it, you know, uh, it makes for a better story, but or did Brian at 2:00 just run
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into the wrong person and that has nothing. Now, the pre timeline and the post timeline mean nothing to the case,
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but we obviously don't know that because we don't have any answers. Yeah. I think
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sometimes, and this is speaking for for me and Lance's journey real quick, um I think sometimes when when we cover the
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culture of a case as well as the case itself, sometimes it blends a little bit in, I guess, an incorrect way to where
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you think like, well, this person has a theory for you almost make assumptions on why um people are pushing narratives
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and you know, a lot of times you there's there's no reason that they just that's
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just what they believe. Um, but I do want to get into uh Brian Schaefer a little bit more. Can you uh can you tell
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us a little bit more about this case? I know uh Lance and I uh appeared on in the garage a few years ago to speak
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about this case and um it's a very memorable experience for us. So, there's a handful of cases that if somebody
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reaches out to me, I will talk to them anytime because I know enough about the case that I don't have
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to take down notes before I call the person, you know. So, in Brian's case being one of those and um but so
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recently I was reached out to this lady, I won't name her cuz I I never asked her
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if that was okay, but she got uh 10 hours of footage of the night Brian goes missing. And so, she's been
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setting up a basically uh dissecting the video footage. And in a very fascinating way, this is when
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Brian showed up. This is when other individuals showed up. This is when other individuals
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left. But before she actually got this footage, she had two pictures that she believed were of Brian walking down the
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steps. And the last picture, he would have been, I don't know, 5t from the front door. So to me, that would have
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definitively proved that Brian left through the front door. And but again, it's all narrative.
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So when when we first talked to um the lead detective, Hurst, he made it seem like there was a
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team of detectives that went through this surveillance footage and that they were able to account for every
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individual on the footage. you then find out, well, it was one detective that did that. So, again, I'm
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not questioning, you know, I'm not questioning his integrity or how hard he worked on it. But if you tell me 10
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people examined it and then we figured this out, that holds more weight than well, one
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individual when he was not on the clock. You know what I mean? like in his free time, this guy was going over the
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surveillance footage. So, I think there's more information that we can learn. And um so this individual that we
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thought could be Brian with further examination. We don't we don't believe it's Brian. We we we think we know who
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it is in the video. We don't have that individual identified, but because of just that work, uh, this individual was
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able to get 10 hours of surveillance, but it's only one angle. So, I do believe if we can gather more
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information and gather more things of this video footage that are fascinating that maybe law enforcement
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will give us another angle of the surveillance that night. And you know that there is another angle. Well,
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that's a good question, Lance. Um, and a fair question at that. You know, I worked high-rise security for several
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years, and we at that facility, we had 30 cameras that were running at all times. Now, which ones we were recording
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on um were were actually 16 cameras. Um, so while you could monitor as many as 30, we were only recording on 16 at one
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time. Now, some of those some of those recordings would be scrolling through a series of cameras. So, it it gets I
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mean, every system is different. Every system is unique, but I but the captain's hitting on something that's
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very important to any case, not just the Schaefer case, but to any case. It's it's the story as you as he says is a
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man walks into a bar. He's seen going in. He's never seen ever again. Well, he's never seen leaving that bar by by
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whomever viewed that that surveillance footage, right? Does it doesn't mean that he's never seen again or never
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actually left or or was or was killed before uh he was removed from the building. It
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just means whoever viewed that says that Brian Schaefer went in this way and he's
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not seen ever leaving in the same manner that he entered the bar. Yeah. And we're
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just And like I said, just every time I talk to an individual, when you when you talk to the detective
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and I don't know, it was three years I had this rumor that Brian had a a gay relationship.
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Well, that is not a normal thing for a a college kid, right? Like out of all my friends and my friend group in college,
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I don't know if I had I mean I had gay friends, so they had relationships, but I never had a a
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straight friend that had a gay relationship and then was considered to be straight. So, when you have this
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rumor for years, I mean, I had it for years. I talked to this individual on the phone
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that was like, "Yeah, I I dated Brian for like 6 months. His friends knew about it. His family knew about it, but
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none of them were telling this was never part of the story." And maybe it's not an important Maybe it's not an important
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part of the story. But then when when me and Maggie Freeline uh interviewed John
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Hurst and he he never ever said it once on camera, I don't know if people just didn't ask him or if he was just not
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willing to to share that information. But when he confirmed that with us, it's like again now we have to determine is
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this part does part is this narrative important to because look every m you guys covered
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a bunch of missing person cases. I have never had a case where talking to whether it's private investigators or
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law enforcement that they lean towards they lean more towards the idea that he went off and started another
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life. I I find that strange. You know, normally it's like, well, that's a possibility, but we have no proof of
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that. But so many times in this case and and I'm also talking about law enforcement officers that like I'm
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playing a gig and the guys work in security and we end up talking about the Schaefer case and they didn't
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investigate the case but they'll just say oh well rumors around the department were that he went off and started a new
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life and and maybe other than the Mara Murray case that's just not a narrative that seems very plausible in a lot of
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these missing person cases. So, but also I mean, think about this. When this source sends me these two
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pictures, you got a guy wearing jeans, a green t-shirt with a white undershirt, which was kind of a popular
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style back then. So, my first thought was, okay, well, we have couple hours of surveillance footage. We have to
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see what are the chances that there's another individual wearing the same color green shirt with a white
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undershirt. Well, we found one. Like literally standing right next to Brian. They're like basically wearing the same
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outfit and you're like what are the chances of that? So, but I just think it's fascinating.
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Like I said, this source, she is going through meticulously. And we've always heard
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that Brian was talking to these two girls at the end of the night, but there there seems to be
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another person involved. What's interesting sometimes about true crime is you don't have to
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have faith. This is not religion. I can watch the footage and tell you, okay, this girl shows up and she goes apart.
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She's a part of this group. I can see now Brian's talking to these individuals. who is this other
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individual? And everybody just everybody I've talked to just seems like this individual didn't
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exist that they don't know what they they're so confused on why I'm asking them about this person. They're like, I
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don't know what you're talking about. There was no other person. Well, why am I seeing it on video footage? Like, I'm
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not making it up. It's there. So, that's where it's been. That's where we're at right now is uh we're trying to
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take this footage and build a timeline of events in the footage that we think matter and then is there anybody in this
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footage that we can identify as Brian leaving and and can we do enough work that maybe CPD will give us more footage
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because I don't know if they're looking for the right stuff. Again, one of the narratives was that Columbus uh police
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officers talked to everybody that worked that night, questioned everybody, questioned the ban. Well, then when I
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questioned the ban two years ago, they're like, "We never talked to the law enforcement." They talked to him two
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years later. Listen to this. This blows my mind. Well, and and not to cut you off here, Captain, but the importance of
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this for people unfamiliar with the case is Brian, according to the people he's with, Clint and I can't think of the
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lady's name, he Meredith. So, according to Clint and Meredith, at some point, Brian says, and this is this is just
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prior to them saying we never see him again. He says, "I'm going to go over and talk to the band." And we know that
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Brian was a aspiring musician. He was a big fan of Pearl Jam. And so to say that
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they didn't enter the band until 2 years later is one thing, but to but to know that part of somebody's story, a key
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witness's story is that he said he was going to go talk to the band. Well, that's your next breadcrumb in your
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breadcrumb trail. And so, you know, it's very important that and almost strangle as simple as they had a hard
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time tracking down the band or who it was that night. We don't know the reasons for why the delay, but uh but
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it's it's important to to understanding the story. So, there was a three-piece band. They were called Rock House. They
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were just a cover band. CPD initially said, "We talked to the band." They didn't. Two years later,
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for whatever reason, there's a group of detectives and law enforcement that show
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up to Ugly Tuna Saloona. The band that played the night Brian Schaefer went missing was called Rock
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House. The band that played the night that they came back two years later to just look around the bar and maybe just
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to discuss the case is what I'm guessing they went to do. The band playing that night was called Filthy Habits. The
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Filthy Habits and they were a cover band as well. Now Rock House had three guys in the band. Filthy Habits had three
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guys in the band. Two of the guys from the Filthy Habits were in Rock House. So when the cops came back and
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they're just looking around, the guys in the band were like, "Hey, uh, what's going on? Like why are
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you guys here? It's a small bar. It's a square bar. Like from any corner you can
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see anybody." So they're just like, "Hey, what are you guys doing here? Why why are the cops here?" And the cops
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were like, "Oh, we're just discussing discussing the Brian Schaefer case. do you know anything about it? And they
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were like, well, we happened to be playing that night, me and uh it was the singer and the drummer. And so that's
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when they talked to law enforcement, but law enforcement didn't show up to talk to them. They're just
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showing up to you. You see what I'm saying? So then then that changes the whole narrative. And to be interviewing
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the band and uh super uh I I've known all those guys for a really long time. super
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talented guys, super like they're sweetheart guys. And um and I told him I was like, "You guys know that one of the
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number one theories on the internet is that the band killed Brian and dismembered him and put him in
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cases and they didn't believe me. They like had to look it up on Google and they're like, "Wait a second, there's
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people out there on the internet that think we might have killed this guy." I'm like, "Yeah, that's how that's how
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crazy this is." But yeah, so it's just um but like I said, it goes back um to my point that I just think like it's
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easy to assume that whatever narrative we're initially being fed is the truth. And and then then you have to question,
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are they are they feeding me this false narrative cuz it's nefarious or is this just their version of what happened or
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or their version of what they think is important, you know? And so I I I mean I don't
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think there's no evidence to me that that uh Brian went missing or on his own accord. But the
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other thing too is we have this narrative that okay, well if Brian got drunk, the narrative was Brian got
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drunk, had problems in his life, and decided at 1:55 a.m. he was going to go start a new life. But but there was all
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all these people saying, "Oh, well, this person checked his apartment the next day and this person checked Nobody
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checked his apartment until like Sunday or Monday. So he he could have got back home, woke up, took a shower, went to
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the gym, and did whatever, and then decided, nah, you know what? Don't I think I'm going to take off and go on
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vacation. And that to me, so what we also uncovered is that Brian multiple times in his life just took off and went
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on vacation. So, is it a possibility that on Saturday he was like, "Well, screw this. I don't
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really want to go on vacation with my girlfriend. I'm just going to take off and go to the Virgin Islands or
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whatever." And then something bad happened to him there. That's that's a possibility, you know. But, yeah. So,
00:19:24
every day it's like I get a new text message about some piece of the puzzle of Brian Schaefer's case. and we'll be
00:19:34
right back after a quick word from our sponsors. Thanks to our sponsors and now we're
00:19:40
back to the program. I one thing that is so tough for me to wrap my head around is well I guess two
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things. You just kind of sparked it in my brain here by saying like did he really just decide at 1:30 in the
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morning to this is the moment that I'm going to start a new life? That's one thing like people don't typically do
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that. Also, getting away with murder without a single trace of evidence is also very
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difficult when you're looking at like the band. You know, the band who I'm sure has never committed murder before.
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They've never had probably some serious allegations toward just the drummer, but
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other just the drummer, of course. always the drummer. But you know, like all of a sudden the band becomes like
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mastermind killers who can find a random person and and spur of the moment spur of the moment and then get
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away with it clean and and you know or or anybody if if Brian's walking home and somebody meets him on the street
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that just happens to be one of the most efficient killers ever. Well, the only reason why I think that's a possibility
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is because that campus area I I actually know of maybe five people personally that have just been randomly attacked
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late night walking home because I think what would happen is that these wannabe gang gangster guys would
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be driving around campus and they'd see a guy walking and they go, "Okay, well, you want to be a part of this group? go
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beat this guy up. I mean, one of my friends literally was just walking home from a party one night on a well-lit
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street and five guys jump out of the car and beat him up and knock his teeth out.
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I mean, he permanently has uh replacement teeth. He did nothing. He didn't yell at, you know, nothing
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happened. And then a guy that me and Nick grew up with was shot and killed basically on the street. Brian went
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missing from simply because a car drove by. They almost hit this guy. The guy was like, "Hey, what? Watch where you're
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going. I'm walking here." And those guys thought it was some different guy. So they come back around, shoot him, and
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then whatever, you know, a couple weeks later when they're arrested, they're like, "Look, we we thought he was this
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other guy that we had beef with, and he wasn't, and we killed the wrong person."
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So, so I'm just saying that that has happened in that area. So, if he was intoxicated and
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decided that he was just going to walk home, it wasn't a super short walk and he would have went down streets that he
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might have ran into the wrong person. And you know, we have a perspective that is different on that
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case than many others because we were, you know, Brian because he was a medical student, he was older than your
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traditional college student, but you know, the captain and I grew up in Columbus and have a lot of ties to
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campus. I mean, you can say what you want about the the campus, but they had some of the best record stores in
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central Ohio, if not maybe in the state. And so, that's one reason to go there. The captain played in a lot of bands,
00:23:04
played at a lot of those different bars. And I for a period of time worked for the university. So, to what the captain
00:23:12
is saying is not wrong. It was it was not students that was making camp campus so dangerous. It was it was the people
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that lived around it's the campus back then was surrounded by very lowincome high crime areas. And
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when when you have when you have criminals and you have violent people that that want to victimize others and
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steal and rob from others, they don't do it on the street that they live in or the neighborhood that they live in. They
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drive to where they think they can get something of value or some money. And the thing with Brian that's that I'll
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never the hurdle that I'll never be able to clear with his case is he if he he if he one we know he was
00:24:01
very intoxicated. Okay. We can see that on the on the video. If if he wasn't very intoxicated, he's pretending to be
00:24:09
for some reason. So he's very intoxicated. We know he's been out all night long with a handful of different
00:24:14
people starting with dinner and then then going from bar to bar. He's very intoxicated. He's likely alone. We know
00:24:23
the two friends that he was with claimed that they didn't they didn't see him leave the bar. Walking from that bar to
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his home, he would have made for a wonderful target for a car full of thugs that want to do something bad. They they
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would have looked at him and they would have said, "Let's go and get that guy." and maybe not with the intention to to
00:24:43
murder or even physically harm the individual, but physical harm is on the menu if he doesn't comply, if he doesn't
00:24:49
give us his wallet, if he doesn't give us this or that or the other thing. And I've always thought that that was what
00:24:56
Brian ran into late that night. And that goes with the crime trends of that area
00:25:01
of that time period as well. And I've had, depending on which detective I talk to, and it's in and not in regard to
00:25:08
Brian's case, uh, but in other cases, I've had some detectives tell me, "Yeah, if if if you end up in the landfill, um,
00:25:18
they there's a high probability they'll never find you." And I I've just always thought that that somebody it wasn't an
00:25:26
efficient killer. It wasn't some criminal mastermind. It was just wrong place at the wrong time crossing paths
00:25:33
with a violent person that tried to take something off of him and I think he ended he may have ended up in a dumpster
00:25:39
somewhere and there's a lot of dumpsters in that area and yes, did they check the
00:25:44
landfill? We know that they did. That doesn't that doesn't mean that he's not in the landfill. Did they check the
00:25:50
dumpsters? Yes, we're told that they did. But just like the the surveillance footage, it doesn't mean that they
00:25:56
checked the right one or they checked the one that he was put in before it was the pickup schedule. And so I just I've
00:26:04
always thought that that is a stronger possibility in Brian's case rather than him leaving to start a new life. Uh
00:26:11
whether it was impulsively or the plan all along was to do it in the middle of the night after drinking heavily. Um, it
00:26:19
it it's it's an unfortunate situation and it's a situation that nobody wants to root for. Obviously, I I would rather
00:26:26
be wrong, but it just seems like a very likely thing because we try to apply all
00:26:31
these different mysteries and different parts of the story to these true crime cases when they're unsolved, right?
00:26:38
Everybody looks guilty, everybody looks like a good suspect, and every action is
00:26:43
suspicious. But the majority of the crimes out there, the murders out there is person A
00:26:50
gets mad at person B and kills person B. And and it could be they got mad at him
00:26:56
and met him for the first time that night when they were killed or they've known him for 20 years. Well, and think
00:27:02
about this, okay? So, the night that Mara went missing, there's a lot of uh I've seen
00:27:10
this a lot on the internet where people go, "Well, why why when these cops show when they showed up that night, they
00:27:19
didn't start this like crazy in-depth search?" They didn't really start searching what till the next morning.
00:27:26
Yeah, they they drove around a little bit that evening. Um, but I just think they they thought
00:27:34
it was like a DUI, right, situation where she got got away from her vehicle. Um, whether she was in the immediate
00:27:44
vicinity or hopped into a car. I don't know what they were thinking, but um I think that was their but they do start
00:27:50
some some searches the next morning. Yeah. Well, even according to the dispatch, they said that they expected
00:27:58
that she would show up at the cottage, which was the hospital. And that's like written in the dispatch logs like make
00:28:04
sure I don't remember the exact wording, but it was like if she shows up at the cottage. So, yeah, it was along the
00:28:09
lines of intoxicated person will probably find their way to this hospital. So, so in this missing person
00:28:19
case, people were going, "Wow, they should have they should have started checking that night and not the next
00:28:25
day." Well, Brian, they there really weren't checking or doing much of anything until Monday. So, you're you
00:28:33
see what I'm saying? Like, so now we got Absolutely. we got this longer time that
00:28:37
has passed and in Mar's case, they're searching in the wide open basically, right? And then Brian's case, it's
00:28:44
opposite. It's a very condensed, highly populated area. And I think I'm not saying that the cops made a mistake
00:28:54
because when you talk to anybody that has done missing person cases, the first thing they'll tell you, uh, I believe my
00:29:01
father has done 4,000. But out of those, 90ome% of those cases, the next day the case is off your
00:29:11
desk because the guy came home. So, so you can't fault law enforcement for not going, "Oh, all hands on deck. This this
00:29:20
guy was super intoxicated." But here here's what we've learned since, you know, like since we've talked to you
00:29:28
last, and hopefully I'm not repeating stuff uh that we said before, but uh I think this stuff again goes to
00:29:37
narrative. So, law enforcement never talks to the band. So then when I talked to the
00:29:43
band, I think this is maybe something important. Somebody came up to the band, a guy, and somehow that there became a
00:29:54
confrontation between this guy and one of the girls that were hanging out with the
00:30:02
band. But these guys weren't confrontational in the sense of like, "Hey man, what the hell are you doing?
00:30:08
You're being a jerk. I'm going to kick your ass. It was just, "No, this guy's being a jerk. Let's get him away from
00:30:16
us." But there's But what do we know? Brian told his friends, "I'm going to go talk to the band." And then the band and
00:30:23
their friends have a confrontation with some intoxicated drunk guy. Was Was that
00:30:29
guy Brian? And so if it was Brian, is it possible that he got in another confrontation with somebody outside the
00:30:37
bar or leaving the bar? So, I think and then also just the fact that like the narratives keep changing like the
00:30:46
narrative was that Brian went to uh dinner with his dad because hey, I'm going on vacation on Monday, so I got to
00:30:54
see my dad before I leave. No, Brian and his dad weren't speaking. They weren't on good terms. So, it was kind of a come
00:31:01
to Jesus moment of let's go out to eat. let's see if we can establish uh build back up this
00:31:09
relationship. And so then what you find out is that him and his dad got into this huge argument over money inherit in
00:31:17
inheritance money that he was getting from because Brian's mother passed away. So we have eyewitnesses at this
00:31:23
restaurant that are like, "Yeah, they got into like kind of a shouting match." So that was the narrative that I heard
00:31:29
then for years. And now I recently learned, oh yeah, well they got in a shouting match, but they calmed down.
00:31:35
They finished dinner and then they went back to Brian's house and Brian, his dad, and Clint had a beer before Brian
00:31:44
and Clint left to go out to the bars. But we don't know if Brian's dad even left Brian's
00:31:52
apartment. So maybe Brian gets back to his apartment drunk and his dad's there. We don't know. But we do know that, you
00:32:00
know, now we know that law enforcement had did look into his dad as a possible suspect. His dad had no
00:32:07
alibi. Um, obviously they had a argument over money, so that would give some motive. And so again, I I I don't know
00:32:16
if these these little details are important, but it's just building the story. And again, if I told
00:32:24
you person A went missing and couple hours before they went missing, they had a shouting match
00:32:31
with their father, you'd want to know about that. That would be, I think, important information if you're law
00:32:37
enforcement. I mean, it was important information enough to have cadaavver dogs go out to his house multiple times.
00:32:46
And then also just like weird stuff like his brother had his brother was supposed
00:32:49
to meet up with him, never met up with him. But law enforcement tells goes, "Well, but dude, he has an
00:32:58
alibi." I go, "He has an alibi till when?" 2:00. When did Brian go missing? Around
00:33:05
1:55. You know what I mean? So, is that really an alibi? I mean, I just I think not, you know,
00:33:12
but and again that I think when you put these ideas out there or just put out your thought process on how you think of
00:33:19
the case, people then could take that as that I'm implying that Brian's dad is responsible for him going missing or his
00:33:27
brother is. And that's not what I'm saying. I'm just saying these are a part of the
00:33:32
story. Again, we don't know if we don't know if that's important or not. Am I making any damn
00:33:41
sense? Sometimes I just feel like I'm screaming at a wall. My biggest frustration with true
00:33:48
crime, and uh I don't think Nick likes this joke, but I don't think we should call it true crime. I think we should
00:33:54
call it what we think we know so far. But the amount of stories, whether it's John Benet Ramsay or West Memphis 3, the
00:34:04
narratives that were fed initially are so [ __ ] And then my question is, why are they such I mean, West Memphis
00:34:12
3, three teenage boys that just well, all they did was listen to heavy metal and wear Metallica shirts like, and then
00:34:23
they were thrown in jail for murdering three eight-year-old boys. And it's like that's a narrative you're fed for so
00:34:30
long and you're like they weren't just like innocent like little angels that were
00:34:37
railroaded by the system. These were weird kids that were confessing to the murders
00:34:46
um and telling people in public that we murdered these people. So I just think that a lot of these narratives in these
00:34:53
cases that we hear you have to start pulling it back. But again, I I just start questioning why is the false
00:35:00
narrative put out there and is it just are we part of the problem? Is the documentaries part of the problem? Are
00:35:08
they just trying to cultivate a story? Um does does that make any sense? Yeah. I think when there's no answers in a
00:35:19
case and you're looking at all angles, um, as a consumer, it's easy to believe that we're only going down this road
00:35:28
because it does matter, you know. Yeah. Because just talking to somebody like in
00:35:35
a bar and we start talking about the Schaefer case and I I just start bringing up, well, there's this thing
00:35:40
that you might not have heard or this thing. And they're like, so you're saying that the dad did it? And you're
00:35:45
like, no, I'm just trying to tell you. I'm just trying to fill in the gaps. And this is probably what happened a lot
00:35:50
with your guys' podcast. You guys would hear a rumor about Mara and try to follow it up and then you probably get a
00:35:59
bunch of people going, "So, are you trying to say that the father was involved? Are you trying to say that?"
00:36:03
You know what I mean? Like, and you're like, "No, I'm just trying to figure out what the truth of the story is." And
00:36:09
then once you figure out the truth of the story, does it even matter? You know, because again, Brian could have
00:36:15
got in this horrible fight with his dad, he could have said, "Dad, I hate you. I
00:36:18
never want to see you again." And then at 155 when he left the bar, at 20:05, he runs into a bad dude that has nothing
00:36:26
to do with his dad and has nothing to do with anything other than just a bad dude
00:36:31
at the wrong time. Or did he get hit by a car and that person was heavily intoxicated and decided, "Oh, well, he's
00:36:40
still breathing. I'll just dump him off in this in this uh dumpster or something. So yeah, I don't know. Since
00:36:47
the beginning of time, I feel like we have always as a human race tried to solve stuff, you know, from the simplest
00:36:54
way of how am I going to feed my family tonight. And that's a series of decisions that you make and you make the
00:36:59
right ones or you make the wrong ones. I think that that translates to today where, you know, man walks into a bar,
00:37:06
he's seen going in, he's not seen going out. Some people still have that part of
00:37:10
them that's like I have to figure this out. Yeah. It's just what do you do with that? Like what do you do with those
00:37:14
narratives after you have, you know, process the information internally? So, do you go out and be public about it in
00:37:23
in what manner? Do you do you be public about it in a you know broadcast like I've solved the case manner until the
00:37:29
next theory comes up and then you're like no I've solved it this time or do you just kind of try to make
00:37:35
people process it as pragmatically as as you did you know does that make sense? Well Nick always says you know I hope
00:37:46
you're not hearing what we're not saying. Yeah. Don't hear what I'm not saying. Yeah. Exactly. which you I can
00:37:54
throw that warning out there and they constantly hear what we're not saying. Um, but it's, you know, it's it's it's
00:38:01
searching for the truth. It's seeking the truth. You know, I said that in my book. I said, you know, I I grew up
00:38:06
always thinking because reading true crime and and watching mystery shows. I always thought that that I liked a good
00:38:12
mystery. And the older I got, I realized I don't. I I I hate them. and and but what the reason why I hone in on them
00:38:20
and focus in on them so much is because I want there to be some kind of solution
00:38:24
to this. I want to I want to know what actually happened and and so it's the hate of the mystery part that that
00:38:32
drives me. And so it's yeah um as far as the telling of these stories I can't say that that people
00:38:46
don't tell them you know what is their motivation for telling the story. I can't say what's in in their head and in
00:38:52
their hearts. Um, you know, I can only tell you why we tell the stories that we do and we and we're we do it because we
00:39:01
hope to keep the story alive. You know, when we covered a long time ago, one of it felt like a big undertaking and it
00:39:09
felt like it was something really big for the show and and it turned out to be something big for the show. We covered a
00:39:14
case, the victim's name was Tony Muny, Anthony Muny. He was from Columbus, Ohio. Um he was he was murdered when he
00:39:21
was a teenager and he was disposed of on the side of the road in another county.
00:39:27
He was partially dismembered and you know for a handful of months it was a really big story in the early 80s and
00:39:36
when the captain and I were digging through cases and whatnot and this actually was a case that I was looking
00:39:43
into before we even started the podcast cuz I was working on a book that never happened that it was going to be about
00:39:48
some Ohio cold cases and um it really struck a chord with me that that this poor a teenage
00:39:58
boy was killed and it was a story for a couple months and then it was like like it never happened almost to the point
00:40:06
like if if that he didn't even exist, you know? It was uh I was I was in incredibly shocked and this will show
00:40:16
some of my naivity, but I was incredibly shocked that there here was this teenager, this kid that was killed in
00:40:23
the area where I grew up and I never even heard the the kid's name or never even heard anything about the story
00:40:29
until I stumbled upon it uh on on the internet. And it wasn't being covered as a story. It was it was simply just a
00:40:35
cold case. Just a name with a date on some cold case list. That's all it was. And so I I do think that it is important
00:40:43
to keep telling these stories. It's a good reminder that that something tragic happened. Something something and
00:40:50
somebody's responsible for it. You know, I think you quit telling these stories then then somebody's getting away with
00:40:57
with great injustice and and great harm that they did destroying people too that
00:41:04
don't follow these stories. Maybe they just watch a date line here or there couple times a year. You don't
00:41:13
realize, forget about the impact. You don't realize how many victims there really are in these stories. You know,
00:41:19
it's not just the the kid that got killed and and dumped on the side of the road. No, there were so many victims in
00:41:26
in that case. And there are so many victims in in a lot of the cases that we cover and that you guys cover. And and
00:41:32
and one thing too that that will shock people is the killer's family a lot of times are are the are the victim that's
00:41:41
overlooked. you know, they Oh, it's it's not a good feeling to wake up and realize my son is a horrible
00:41:48
monster. You know, it's not a it's not a good feeling to to all of a sudden figure out that your your sister was
00:41:55
biling people out of out of money and oh, killed this man to cover it up, you know? It's it's it's horrifying and and
00:42:03
tough for for those people, too. Well, yeah. They have to then try to figure out why their son or daughter or brother
00:42:11
or sister became that perpetrator of violence. They have to think to themselves. Was it something I did in
00:42:17
the upbringing? Did I not do something right? Did I miss signs? Did I miss signals? And that has to be just as
00:42:24
painful as somebody wondering why was my son or daughter or wife killed for no reason randomly out of the blue. an act
00:42:33
of violence that she didn't ask to have, you know, on her, you know, that trying
00:42:38
to come to terms with that is just everyday torture that you have to, you know, go through therapy to get through
00:42:44
and a lot of people do. But a lot of people don't and a lot of people turn to violence in that case as well. They'll
00:42:51
start to become violent themselves. So, yeah, you're right. It's not just one person that you have to look at and say,
00:42:57
"There's the killer. There's the victim. I feel bad for the victim." Like the ripple effect and we always say that the
00:43:03
ripple effect, the butterfly effect is infinite. Yeah. Because you know back to like Bill
00:43:12
Bill Roush chicken his life forever. Yeah. Chicken or the egg. Were you going to do these actions no
00:43:21
matter what? Or were these actions propelled because you had a traumatic experience with a girlfriend going
00:43:27
missing? You have no answers. But also back then back to the narrative thing, I do think sometimes these
00:43:35
narratives there there's not a nefarious they're not simplifying it to be nefarious, but like I was just talking
00:43:42
to Aurelia the the other day and she's the one that told me about Mara's case and it was like it simply was, you know,
00:43:50
the New Hampshire uh girl that went missing in New Hampshire, she went to UMass. That was the narrative. You know
00:43:56
what I mean? So that was enough for me to go, well, let me look into it. And then you're hooked and now you then the
00:44:04
narrative expands. So I don't think always the narrative being simplified or not true is coming from a bad place. It
00:44:12
might just be because that's how we simplify Brian Schaefer. The narrative that guy walks into a bar and never
00:44:18
walks out again. And we'll be right back after a quick word from our sponsors. Thanks to our sponsors. And now we're
00:44:26
back to the program. Well, my question to you guys is when is your book on the Brian Schaefer case
00:44:33
coming out? I wrote a book last year called um IP Ipoo. Um it did pretty well. Um but I have the Audible version
00:44:43
of it. No, again, see, this goes back to my thing and I don't know if you guys wrestle with this uh or not because
00:44:51
again, you guys are coming from to to me and and maybe it's just cuz I know you on a different level than other people
00:44:59
know you uh or or how I came to know you, but like I view you guys as filmmakers like in in my mind, but I'm
00:45:10
sure most of your audience views you in a different light than that. And just like I said, I think me and Nick's path
00:45:18
and what we're doing with the platform is different. And I think that's okay, you know, and and um cuz there's stuff
00:45:26
that he like when I say he's a true crime expert. Like every almost every case we
00:45:33
cover, he says something that I'm like, "Oh, I never even thought of it that way." Or, "Wow, that's a
00:45:40
very How did you get that piece of information? And I looked I I looked at this I had 10 sources on this case and I
00:45:48
I didn't come across that. So, um I think I don't know. I think all that that's that's something I wrestle with
00:45:55
all the time cuz sometimes I think oh I have this platform and I got these five victims families I need to call back.
00:46:04
And then there's other there's other days where I'm like I'm I'm not calling them back cuz I don't care. I'm not
00:46:09
calling them back cuz if I keep going at this pace, I'm going to break down at some point. Yeah, burn out. Yeah,
00:46:19
burnout's definitely a a real thing. Um, well, yeah, Nick, I know you did write a
00:46:28
book. Um, are you going to write another one? Have you have you uh considered that? I hope to. um in the early stages
00:46:37
of putting together a story that would be, you know, not just a different case, but it that the case and and the way
00:46:45
that the storytelling would go would be considerably different than the Deli murders book. And you know, with the
00:46:52
deli murders book, I really felt like I was writing it uh I was writing it for me, but I also had to keep in mind that
00:47:00
the a large portion of the people that would would be kind enough to read my book would be people that are already
00:47:09
part of our audience. And so I I did I did what they tell all writers not to do. I wrote myself into the book, but I
00:47:16
felt like that I needed to uh give give a little more background because we don't we don't get into too much
00:47:23
personal stuff on on True Crime Garage. We we try to keep the the story about the the victim and and the the facts of
00:47:30
the case and and and some of our theories and speculation, but you know, so I did I did kind of give the the
00:47:38
reader information on why and how I got in into true crime because, you know, when when I was a kid, uh true crime was
00:47:47
this was this single bookshelf in the back of the bookstore that uh that very few people
00:47:56
people ventured to and even few people fewer people wanted to be seen standing in front of. Um it was kind of this it
00:48:03
was kind of looked at as like uh tabloid news in a in a in a way. And so, um, you
00:48:11
know, today it's so there's so many people that that that follow the stories and and you have
00:48:19
these these shows that everybody tunes into and um I have this weird fear of and it's because it's happened
00:48:30
multiple times that I'm, you know, I'm in a bar or I'm somewhere in a in a in a big social gathering And somebody asked
00:48:38
me, "What do you do for a living?" Uh, "What is it that you do?" And I'm always hesitant to get answer that question
00:48:46
truthfully because I know 90% of the time what will follow. It's going to be I'm going to be peppered about some case
00:48:53
that I may know if you know, I may be familiar with or it may be a case that I don't know anything about. Um but the
00:49:00
the worst the worst questions that you can get is uh um you know you can pick any victim or or let's use Mara Murray
00:49:08
as an example like the the broad question and I'm sure Tim Lance you guys get this the people that don't know your
00:49:15
show but find out what what it is that you're working on. I I hate the one who's like hey Mara Murray so
00:49:23
uh go like that like what's the question? What what am I supposed am I am I supposed to do a show a podcast
00:49:30
right here in front of you now? You got your PowerPoint ready for the presentation? Well, real quick, uh Tim
00:49:37
Lance, uh we'll start with Tim, when somebody asks you at a bar what you do, what do you what do you tell them?
00:49:46
Yeah, I I don't go to bars too much these days. Um but h gez, I guess I would probably say podcaster.
00:49:55
um you know and try to get out of the conver like I try to shift the the topic very quickly after that and Lance what
00:50:01
do what's your answer yeah I say like I have a media company uh we do podcasting
00:50:08
uh primarily like true crime stuff uh and then they'll be like oh really that I love to you know people will typically
00:50:14
say that they like you know oh we watch Netflix documentaries but I always end up saying like you know it it it tends
00:50:19
to get pretty heavy you know it's it's pretty heavy indicating like I don't want to
00:50:25
Yeah. Yeah. I'm I'm I'm here trying to talk about something else. Um but then I'll ask them what they do. Like it's
00:50:30
really easy to just like get hook it around and just say like, "Yeah, so that's that's me. What do you do?" But
00:50:35
yeah, you know, a lot of the times like uh the conversations will happen where we'll hang out with our neighbors who
00:50:41
know what I do and they'll say, "Any updates on?" And then they'll they'll, you know, fill in the blank there. And I
00:50:49
think they get it now. when they first met me, I think they wanted more and now they just know by my body language. Like
00:50:55
if I say no updates, like that's it. That's gonna be like, no, there's there's not not a whole lot to talk
00:51:00
about. Then we just move on. But I also want to say like it's it's hard sometimes to have conversations that
00:51:09
aren't about the work. Yeah. um like like uh you know if my my kids are having a playd date with with a a dad um
00:51:19
sometimes it's hard to not talk about who we just interviewed or who our next interview is and uh and I don't want to
00:51:27
get into it but sometimes I just don't know what else to talk about so I do Yeah. Well, sometimes it is kind of like
00:51:33
you you start talking to people because you want to see their reaction. Yeah. Yeah. or hey. Yeah. And sorry that's
00:51:39
kind of selfish, but like what did you do today? Oh, that was your job. Well, today we talked to the guy who stole $5
00:51:46
million from Atlantis Morset, went to prison, came out, and now is trying to reinvent his life. Wait, who was what
00:51:53
was that one? I got to listen to that one. Latest crawl space, Jonathan Jonathan Schwarz. Oh my god, I'm so
00:52:02
crazy. This I'm going to go listen to. Uh, but yeah. What do you guys say? Well, what do what do you say, Nick?
00:52:10
Well, I mean, I'm I'm honest about it, but I but if there's a a group of people and it's kind of going around in a
00:52:16
circle, you know, I will usually conveniently like try to be the quiet one that doesn't say anything. I've
00:52:23
also, and it's not that I'm trying to be rude, it's it's but but you know, it's like I said, it's the dumb the fear of
00:52:30
the dumb question of the uh you know, Matthew Perry. Okay. what happened? Like, you know, I don't I don't know,
00:52:37
you know, like like there's there's a lot of cases and stories I'm not familiar with at all, but but I'm also
00:52:45
one of those guys that like if I'm out in a social place or if I'm at a at an event, I'm there for the event. I'm
00:52:53
there for whatever. I I you know, I'm I've never been the type that loves sitting around and talking about work or
00:52:59
bitching about work after the workday is done. Totally. you know, and that's just me, you know,
00:53:06
and there but we all do know somebody that that all they talk about is their work and and and good for them and and
00:53:12
and I'm I'm very happy and and I'm very lucky to do what what I do um and get to
00:53:20
do this and I that's not lost on me. But wait, if you if you see me sitting there
00:53:26
on the bar stool, uh I'm I'm there for um fun conversation in in usually the the game that's on the TV in front of
00:53:35
me. Oh, I I try to tell people all the time if you listen to the show, people are like, "Man, I'd love to have a beer
00:53:41
with the captain and I'd love to talk true crime with Nick." And I'm like, if you meet us like at an event, like uh
00:53:51
I'll probably be the one talking about a case and Nick will probably be the one drinking a beer and talking about
00:53:57
football and having a good time. Uh but but our our dynamic is also a little strange because you know our father was
00:54:06
a detective and so when we first started I I remember Nick was on some show or some documentary and it said like true
00:54:14
crime expert and at first my dad was like how is he a true crime expert? Like I'm a detective. I was a detective for
00:54:25
20 years and and now so many years later, you know, Nick wrote a book. He's involved with Project Porsche. They they
00:54:34
solved a murder. They uh figured out these uh Jane Does and John Doe's and and so it's weird because my father is
00:54:42
now very uh proud of everything he's done. uh and kind of does view him, oh well, he didn't do the job, but he is an
00:54:52
expert in this field, but then he's weirdly proud of me for not wanting to be an expert. And if that makes any
00:55:02
sense. Like I feel like I'm here to help facilitate what he's doing. Um, and when
00:55:09
I say that, people are like, "You're just as much of a part of the show." I'm like, "Yeah, I know that. I produce I
00:55:15
edit every show. I know what I'm doing, you know, but uh but when people ask me at bars what do you do? I say I I edit
00:55:22
audio for commercials and it's like cool enough where they're like oh cool like at a
00:55:30
studio I'm like no I just work at my house but like it's cool enough but not enough where but it's true I mean it's
00:55:37
cool enough to stand out as unique but you don't really have to get into it because
00:55:42
I get it. I get what a commercial is. Yeah. If they ask me questions, I'm like, "Yeah, we do ads for Better Help
00:55:47
and uh Simply Safe and HelloFresh." You know, you probably heard those. I do. They'll be like, you know, like ads on
00:55:56
podcasts. Yep. Exactly. You've heard you've heard my word. No, but I think but I think it's okay. And I think uh
00:56:04
look, my favorite murder. They blew up. Nobody on that show is claiming to be an
00:56:11
expert. They're still entertainers and comedians and that's fine. I don't think we all have to then define ourselves uh
00:56:20
as armchair detectives. It's something I'm super fascinated. What I also hate is when listeners go, it's amazing to
00:56:27
see how uh involved and evolved you become in the true crime space. I'm like, I was always fascinated with it,
00:56:36
but it's just it's a smaller percentage of who I am as opposed to Nick, you know, just like me and Nick both watch
00:56:44
NFL football. Uh, but I don't have like two or three fantasy football leagues and I've never bet on a game. We're
00:56:51
there's just we're involved in a different way. Yeah, sports is a great escape. I think that's uh for for me at
00:56:59
least from, you know, work and and everything else. It's just uh Well, you can you used to be able to dunk, right?
00:57:07
I have dunked in a game before. Once one time. I've never done it in a game, but um but
00:57:16
my life ain't over, my friend. My life ain't over. It was I was on a breakaway. It was It
00:57:22
was lucky. Um but my god, you guys, this has been a great conversation. We got to do this uh more.
00:57:30
Why don't we do this more? Yeah, this is easy easy lift. Easy lifting. Yeah. Yeah. This has been super fun uh
00:57:38
catching up with you guys and uh hitting a hitting a plethora of topics. Are we going to see you at uh in Colorado or
00:57:46
Yeah, I believe so. Yeah, that will be fun. That will be fun. No formal announcement yet, but yes. Uh very
00:57:54
likely. Let's see if we can uh connect and do something there. Well, I hope so. You you guys always look handsome and
00:58:02
uh always always uh you look better and smell better than Bob Ruff every time. Every time. That's a compliment I'm
00:58:09
going to take very seriously. I appreciate that. No, he does smell nice though. He He is very nice smelling man.
00:58:17
Yeah. Um well, cool you guys. Um what's coming up uh soon on True Crime Garage? Hopefully this episode that we are doing
00:58:27
right now. Yes. Fantastic. No, we we we're actually just had a a meeting this morning to uh add some new
00:58:38
cases to the the calendar. We don't like to we're not big on announcing what's coming up because we've a lot of times
00:58:47
we we're always getting approached with different cases and different stories and um
00:58:52
sometimes, you know, one one may one may leapfrog another story. So, it's it's a
00:58:59
it's a fluid calendar that we keep. But, uh yeah, we got some some interesting case. And you know what's what's wild is
00:59:08
all these cases that we've covered over the years when am I going to stop being shocked, right? When when I keep think I
00:59:17
would have thought by now that I would just be like, "Okay, here we go again, you know, with this this crazy story."
00:59:23
They just keep getting more far out there and more bizarre a as as we dig deeper into this this space. Well, you
00:59:33
know, I think that's a testament to the two of you, you know, not being so battleweary, not being so desensitized
00:59:43
that they still affect you. So, that's good. Yeah. But do you wrestle with this though, too? Um, people love dine,
00:59:51
right? Because there's a start and there's an end of the story. And I do think it's important to cover uh cases
01:00:00
that are solved because you there is something you learn from that. But when you have a platform
01:00:09
like we just feel like it's more important to uh cover the unsolved cases because it might stir something. You
01:00:17
might have an effect on on on life. And so I think we wrestle with that sometimes of you know are we doing too
01:00:25
many unsolved cases or too you know uh so I don't know if you guys wrestle with that as well. Yeah. Yeah absolutely but
01:00:33
you know there is an obligation that comes with this and I mean you weigh it and I mean the story is nice when it
01:00:40
gets wrapped up but you also have to make sure that there are stories out there that aren't
01:00:46
wrapped up that can be wrapped up. Exactly. It's got to start somewhere. Yeah. I think we find the unsolved ones
01:00:51
a bit more purposeful, but I think um I think listeners tend to gravitate towards cases that have been solved. I
01:01:01
think um from what we've heard, but uh yeah, I don't know. I don't know. I think for me as a listener, I'm I'm
01:01:07
always more interested in the unsolved stuff. Um I think I come from that uh school of like the Bermuda Triangle and
01:01:14
like Bigfoot and like that that is like where my interest in mysteries began. Um, and it's, you know, morphed quite a
01:01:22
ways, but uh, but yeah, I love I at my core that like I'm interested in the ones that we'll probably never, you
01:01:29
know, have a great answer for. Yeah. One day they're going to do um like a docue series of the
01:01:38
the explosion of podcast and how it how it formed because we started like you guys when it was a complete wild wild
01:01:48
west. Uh and it seems not so wild west anymore. Uh seems a little And it was a bunch of a bunch of no-name people that
01:01:58
had podcasts when we all started, right? It was a bunch of Tim and Lances and Nick and Captains out there, right? And
01:02:04
it it's like Steve Bushimi just did an ad on our show that he's got a podcast coming out now. So, it's it's it's all
01:02:11
uh the the famous people are they're going to they're going to squeeze us out of this this space. Tim, I just saw that
01:02:19
Bart Simpson has a podcast. Really? I saw that saw that cartoon character. Long aaited long aaited long
01:02:28
aaited. I've always wanted to hear a long form interview with Bart Simpson. Always.
01:02:33
No, but but Lisa Simpson has a has a true crime podcast. Yep. But I but I think it's interesting how
01:02:42
uh people have evolved over time and and some shows have become more entertainment as opposed to uh trying to
01:02:52
move the needle. And but I'm proud like maybe we're not the biggest show. Whatever. At least we're trying to move
01:02:58
the needle and I I'm proud of that and I'm proud of what you guys are doing. Uh and um like I said, you can yell at me
01:03:06
anytime you want, Tim. I will never stop loving you. Um no matter no matter how many times you hurt me. Um I will I
01:03:16
still don't even know. No more yelling. I still don't even know what the cover I
01:03:19
don't even know if you yell at me. I'm making this all up. But no, but but I'm proud to know you guys. I'm proud to
01:03:27
have worked with you guys and I'm proud that you continue to do what you do. So,
01:03:31
thank you for having us on. Yeah, I mean the feeling is is entirely mutual. You guys are honestly like an inspiration to
01:03:39
be uh in the same conversation with and you know even having this conversation has been a incredible highlight of the
01:03:46
year to be honest. Yeah. And I know it's hard to keep up with code name pay a horse but pay well who can but you got
01:03:54
to try. You got to try. You're so pale and fast. I'm glad that you said uh an inspiration there, Lance. So maybe in uh
01:04:03
Denver, come this fall, I could inspire you to buy me a drink or two. I That's that I I will always step up to a
01:04:13
challenge like that. I want to want to make sure that that fulfills your uh inspirational needs.
01:04:21
Well, uh, yeah, we can't wait to, uh, rub elbows with you guys again in person, um, sometime very soon.
01:04:27
Hopefully in Denver this, uh, September. That'll be, uh, that'd be great. So, there's no better place for the pale
01:04:35
horse to ride than Denver. I'm I'm just glad you said that. I'm just glad everybody acknowledged that. I
01:04:42
didn't want to have to do it myself. [Music]