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[Music] [Music] I'm very glad to be here in the garage with two experts on the John Benet ramsy
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case and experts on the city of Boulder around the time of the murder as well the the gentlemen joining me today are
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brothers the zel Brothers Jim and Frank and they've been looking at the John Benet ramsy case almost since day one so
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they started looking at this case early 1997 one thing that I really enjoyed and
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I thought was a breath of fresh air when we first met for the first time guys you
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told me about something that you called the boulder syndrome could you explain again to me what that is and to our
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wonderful listeners what it is that you call the Boulder syndrome well thanks for for having us on Nick we appreciate
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the time thank you Nick uh the boulder syndrome that's what our original Theory morphed into in January of
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1997 we devised our own theory about the case we called it the sex ring Theory we
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do not believe that John or paty Ramsey killed their child but maybe were involved in something which put their
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daughter In Harm's Way and led to her death that was our Theory and as we looked into
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Boulder as the days went on the weeks the months the years we started finding out that there
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were all these cases and we were getting bits of information about things that not many
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people knew about and involving child sexual abuse so it for us it became bigger than the John Benet Ramsey case
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and we call it the boulder syndrome we use the word syndrome because in medical terminology what is a syndrome it is a
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series of symptoms that repeat over and over and that's what that's how we view Boulder that they have they have had a
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pedophile problem in that town for decades yeah it's always been painted Boulder as this perfect town but there
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is an extremely Dark Side to it uh underneath the surface it's really dark and that's what I found so amazing some
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of the cases that you guys pointed out to me you know we have Lawrence Schiller's book and I think it's a
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fantastic book it it Chronicles a lot of the events and the movements about this
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case early on perfect murder perfect town jeanet in the city of Boulder but as you guys quickly pointed out to me
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not so fast there Nick this is not the perfect town and here's why so let's let's take the listeners through some of
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the the child sex some of the the grosser more disturbing things that were going on in
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Boulder starting with the Slusher Cas the Slusher case this was a case that started out early on in Hunter
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uh career so Hunter Alex Hunter the district attorney who uh at the time of the uh ramsy
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murder he was elected into office around 1972 And this case happened in 1977 you
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had a man the name of Floyd David Slusher arrested in 1977 for um molesting Boy Scouts
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and we found out about this case when the the Boy Scouts released their files about pedophiles who had worked for
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their organization and we pretty much when they did that we pretty much guarante
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that we we'll definitely find a boulder connection and we found Floyd David Slusher uh so he rested in
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77 he was convicted on one count of sexual assault on a minor and he was sentenced one day to life which I had
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never heard of before but and he served about six years now as we started digging in to
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the to Mr Slusher we found the the investigating officer's notes this was an officer D of the color
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of the uh Sheriff's Office the Boulder County Sheriff's Office and the things he wrote about
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Slusher were incredible for example uh this is a quote from the handwritten notes of that
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77 case the tro stated that he quote learned of many victims too numerous to interview so right there that gives you
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pause what do you mean that they were too numerous to interview you didn't interview everybody
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there were so many you stopped so that was problem number one and uh D also stated that Slusher sexually approached
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every boy scout troop in troop 75 and Troop 73 and that Slusher chose victims outside of scouting as
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well it is evident however that Slusher through his sexual assaults assaults on young boys has affected many young
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lives and the most distressing part of it was when the tro stated parents of one of the
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victims may have been directly promoting a relationship between their son and the
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suspect that is in what the old terminology that we use two or more people involving you know that are
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involved in abusing a child is called The Sex ring that's what we always called it and still do today you call it
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human trafficking so this this case ends up he's arrested for several counts and Hunter and his office plead
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him down to one count now the parents of the other kids were outraged but hunter tried to calm them
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down but saying look if if we charge them if we if we do all eight it's going to come out to the same
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sentence and that was said to kind of keep the parents at Bay but what the parents didn't know
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about were the handwritten notes by Officer D Hunter didn't have to plead him out he could have went back to DET
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tril and interviewed the numerous amount of witnesses that they didn't interview and
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you could have hit him with a slew of charges and kept him in prison for a much longer time but that didn't
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happen and that for us where it starts I'm sure there's cases before 77 but you're going to see a common
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theme with like everybody bashes the police department and we do too but the District Attorney's Office they're the
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ones who were really at fault in our opinion and and slusher's um when he was initially arrested you know the the acts
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that he that he was accused of being committed at the time they were atrocious horrible but yet you had many
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people come to his defense you had professors write letters to the judge you had
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lawyers uh that were not representing him obviously but they were writing letters for him to to be lenient if not
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straight out released they wanted him released on bond if you could believe it uh this and and Slusher did this by
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by the he did all this by the rip old age of 24 years old yeah they usually start they usually the statistics will
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tell us that they usually start in that late teens early 20s age for this type of behavior this these type of
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gross actions and crimes and and what we're seeing here is I think with the Slusher case I look at that one and I go
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well this is showing me that either these these molestation cases and I don't know the details of some of the
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the crimes that he committed but the molestation cases especially in the 70s they were handled a lot differently back
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then than they are today and and so that that could be a little bit a sign of the times kind of
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thing but I think you're right what we're what we're going to see with some of these cases is is either
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a some kind of Disconnect where where we're not we're not convicting these people to the fullest extent of the law
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and why why are we not doing that and and and what's behind that so let's move forward guys to to 84 I believe it was
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1984 the Sid Wells case uh I believe it was 1983 nick uh it was the murder of uh
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sidw Wells by the the person arrested for the murder it his name was th smika and this is where you're going to
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hear how Alex Hunter handled it wasn't just uh the Ramsey grand jury that he was kind of
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messing around with he he kind of screwed with the uh sidwell's grand jury and made deals and just to touch on
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because we're gonna actually get to that maybe touch on it with this case as well
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when you said that in the 70s they handled cases different in Boulder it never never changed right from the 70s
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to the 80s to the 90s and after they were ex that District Attorney's office that's all they did was make crazy plea
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bargain in pedophile cases and we'll touch on that but uh as for Dane smer Sid Wells was uh he
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brought th in as a roommate to help pay the rent uh th was usually uh late with the
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rent which sidw Wells complained about and thing was a bit of a a drug user also a drug dealer and the brother of
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sidwell's went camping came home one day and found his brother uh shot in the back of a head with a shotgun so that's
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how and and th smah isn't there he had left a note on the table stating that he was
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elsewhere and wouldn't be back to a certain time that was his kind of his Alibi look it was his
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shotgun he left the note on top of the blood so he was arrested but hunter did something very very strange he made a he
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made a deal he had a grand jury formed to investigate the case and it was just he he made a deal that
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was so strange that the detectives working on the case weren't aware of it and after it was over they actually
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looked into seeing if Alex Hunter committed illegal acts by doing this he worked Hunter and sm's attorneys agreed
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in writing that the grand jury convened to invest investigate the case would not
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indict smah that was the deal hunter made with sma's attorney and they also agreed that
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sm's mother and sister would not be called as Witnesses why because sm's own mother
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said he did the murder so what happens they make that deal and in exchange sm's attorney allows smer to
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remain in police custody even though no charges are formally filed against them now they only have so much time to hold
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them then they release him he sticks around Boulder for a period of time and then he disappears
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and two this day they're still looking for him that's how Alex Hunter handled that case let's push forward and go to
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the dbor case Bruce dbor uh was working for the University of Tennessee when he was arrested in 2013 and he was caught
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up in this worldwide investigation and it was called project spade and this this project Spade was they were
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investigating a Canadian film company called aav films and this this aav films they were in they were into uh child
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torture pornography so Bruce nsboro was caught up in this he was a arrested and there were some other people arrested in
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this uh US senator Lamar Alexander's Chief of Staff his name was Jesse Ryan Larin he was also arrested and but he
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wound up committing suicide um there were about 350 people in total that were arrested in this
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investigation uh and then going back to dbor he had about 20,000 images um that were on his computer and this is some of
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the most brutal stuff uh the the abuse and torture of toddler you know re really horrific uh material
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dbor this is where he was arrested in Tennessee but there's a tie-in it goes back to Boulder Colorado you know and
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dsb was arrested in Boulder Colorado in 1986 Jim I'm sorry if I I don't mean to jump over you go ahead you know in the
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80s Bruce sboro lived you know in Boulder in the surrounding area and he worked at the College of Boulder in the
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Grants Department go ahead Jim continue sorry about that no that's true yeah if he
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lived there and and he was a lawyer um and he molested two boys and he pleaded guilty to sexual assault on a child and
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sexual assault in the third degree obvious you know the common pattern no jail time has ever given in these cases
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uh in the first case he received a deferment and the second case he received I think it was two years
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probation and he also also mentioned to Tennessee investigators that he also molested other children as well but that
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was never never really pursued yeah his words were he got away with it yeah he got away with it that's right so uh and
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what's interesting about this is John Ramsey's access Graphics was the uh subsidiary of Lockheed Martin and in the
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90s Lockheed Martin was the United States number one defense contractor going back to
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1986 the number one defense contractor was h RB singer and the president of that company in 1986 was George dsb
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Bruce's father you're going to see a pattern the more we share stories of you know you're going to see lawyers City
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officials people of prominence police caught up in deviant activity so that's a that's the the
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Downs Boro in a nutshell and then of incred I mean these cases are already very disturbing but
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but one that really takes the disturbing cake is the Ballard case the Ballard case is known to be the most horrific
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sex abuse case in Colorado History you had um Mike Ballard and Patricia Ballard with their friends uh Dennis
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Dunham and his wife and they were abusing um the Ballard kids and I believe there was five of them seven
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seven kids seven kids and they were it was torture sexual abuse incest you name it these kids were going through it and
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they had a they kind of had a system going where they would abuse in one town and when DHS came and got wise they
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would move to another town and continue the abuse and they would get visited and
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the kids would have all types of um you know damage to their bodies cigarette spms bite marks but they were never
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taken out of the home they were never taken away from them they were even brought before a judge with a broken
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Limbs and they were still sent back to the ballards so this went on from a for a
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period of you know years uh they were eventually arrested in 93 when finally they took the the children out of the
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home and placed them in a foster home and when they felt comfortable enough they told the foster parents what was
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going on and that's how the arrests were finally made after the kids disclosed the horrific abuse that they were
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experiencing at the hands of the ballards and and the dunans but it kind of It kind of expands though
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it's not just the ballards and the dunans because when we received the affidavits for this case when you read
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um the police reports it says that the children were being pimped out in the neighborhoods to other adults
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neighbors to everyone and what's interesting is that there were no other arrests made there was just strictly the
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dunans and the ballards all these other people that these kids said that they were abused by neighbors you think
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they'd be easily approached and questioned but this never took place and some of these other persons were named
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it wasn't just a neighbor or somebody from Boulder some of these persons were named in the affidavit there were no
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other people named in the affidavit they they said that there were strangers they
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said neighbors other kids o o other children the thing is is that they just focused on the four and that was it
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right even though the the kids talked about being taken to other places made to have you know BR you know
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brutally raped in front of many adults other children were there they you know nobody looked into it you know this case
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had the largest Task Force at the time in Colorado History you had multiple you had Longmont Lafayette
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Boulder Social Services mental health it was this huge task force but yet they only focused on the four and they were
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these people were also picture takers so they took pictures and possibly film so how they did not look for other
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people we we can't find it we can't find any paperwork on the task force even though it was the largest one in the
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state's history we can't find anything it was it was the jail sentence that was truly amazing
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just on the incest alone you could have locked these people up for life right never mind the torture you know the
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pimping out to you know the other you know having him pimped out to other people I think Ballard I think uh
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Michael Ballard was given 10 years I think his wife was I think she served five uh what was Dennis dunnan's wife's
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name Jim I forgot that one that that name escapes me but she got off scott free yeah she didn't do a day in jail
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and Dennis dunnan got life yeah and I think I think Balor did eight and a half yeah he did
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eight and a half maybe so but Dennis dunnan got life because once again the Boulder
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County District Attorney's Office pled these people down this was such a disgusting
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plea that there were attorneys involved in this case that left the District Attorney's
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office they just didn't leave the District Attorney's office they stopped being attorneys because they were so disgusted
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on what happened and everybody complained about the Polie the kids complained about it
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social workers complained about it but yet they did it anyway and Nick I I was able to reach out to
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somebody that was very close to that case that uh was uh knew what was going on uh in the DA's office at that time
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and also was uh you know close to the kids as well and this person relayed to me that this case was a hot
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potato at the DA's office nobody wanted to handle it right and she and this person said that the the children were
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treated in a hostile manner by the DA's office the kids were very uncomfortable and
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they were treated poorly and and and this person did not understand why why why why why they were handling them they
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were getting threats in a sense like some kids were in the hospital and they were threatening the kids by saying if
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you don't come to the DA's office we're not going to press charges stuff like that very bizarre how they handled this
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case and eventually my brother and I were able to track down one of the uh child
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victims in the case lived out in the midwest um I I was able to talk with with him on the phone briefly because he
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kind of was caught off guard um but when I mentioned the case to him after his initial shock of kind
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of being brought back up he settled down and he said that he had a fear of police
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officers in the in this case I said well why do you have a a fear of police officers and he said this he
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goes they were orchestrating the abuse that's how he said it to me and I said where he said Boulder
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longm and I said okay so at at one point I was was able I I took a reporter me and a reporter I went out
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from from from me who who told us to go out to the Midwest to interview him he did no no who who who told us to do
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it you remember Ali ah Ali gr we told Ali Great's information about what one of the B what the Ballard kid had said
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to my brother right and Ali was like you need you know because of his health issues at the time he couldn't
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travel so he begged us to do it he's he found it to be that important yeah so once I got out there
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with the reporter I had conversations with with the Ballard uh kid and he said he was going to show but eventually he
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he backed out so it was kind of a a failed trip on the sense that he he he wouldn't show up to to speak further on
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it when he mentioned the police orchestrating the abuse that's what I really wanted to dig deep into but when
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you look at the affidavit and you start reading through uh the police narrative one of the girls
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mentions at one of these get togethers where they're being abused and they're being and they're being sexually abused
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she said oh well I thought we were going to get money for it but I I I never received any and then she said there was
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a policeman there and I told him that I'm being abused used here and it says in the affidavit when she told this
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quote unquote policeman that the policeman and Mike Ballard laughed together that says that right in the
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affidavit I was just reading it today in a matter of fact County that there the girl said
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that she reported it to a policeman who was there and the policeman and Mike Ballard
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laughed and there's also in the affidavits uh police officers going to the the home at different times during
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the day you know showing up in uniform now when we're not saying that the entire Boulder Police Department was
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involved or Longmont but all it takes is one or two and it's a dis you know these are
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disturbing allegations that were made and it's no wonder Ali gray wanted us to go out
00:26:54
there and try to get more information and I'm unfortunately the kid didn't you know he got nervous and didn't show but
00:27:01
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safe the zel brothers are investigating Boulder the time period leading up to the John Benet ramsy murder case and
00:31:09
even the city afterward if anyone has any tips they're looking for information in all the cases that we've just
00:31:18
discussed as well as anything that was going on that was not on the up and up in Boulder in the 1990s and after and if
00:31:26
anybody has information or would like to speak with one of the zel brothers or both please use this email address jbr
00:31:33
tips atgmailcom once again that's jbr tips atgmailcom what we are seeing here time and time again and what these cases
00:31:44
point out is a flawed history of the town of Boulder and the persons that are supposed to be responsible for
00:31:53
investigating horrific crimes and a lot of the crimes we we just talked about crimes against children and you're
00:31:59
seeing repeatedly failed investigations failed follow-ups a failure to convict these
00:32:07
individuals to the fullest extent of the law they are soft on crime in Boulder and they are softed on crimes against
00:32:14
children in Boulder at this time period and and that's that's what we call that's the boulder syndrome this is what
00:32:22
we're talking about this repeats over and over for decades throughout the you know Alex Hunter's tenure we've spoken
00:32:33
to people we've spoken to former detectives who worked at the Boulder Police Department and know everybody
00:32:40
says the same thing The Plea Bargains were out of control everybody says it and one thing we didn't mention with the
00:32:47
ballot case my brother talked about the judge that the kids were brought before and and the judge refused to take them
00:32:55
out of the home that judge his name was judge bapani that name may not sound familiar to people who followed the
00:33:03
Ramsay case but he was the judge who was put in charge of the grand jury in the ramsy case and during the
00:33:11
grand jury process he recused himself and left the country went to Egypt he did this out of nowhere he just came out
00:33:21
you know he I think he sat the grand jurors and then all of a sudden said I quit
00:33:27
I'm going to Egypt to teach law so there's the connection between the ballor case and
00:33:33
the Ramsey case with that one well and to to kind of fill in the listeners here a
00:33:39
little bit if if anybody's out there shaking their heads going I don't know this seems like a lot to to believe
00:33:45
anybody that's read John Benet inside the ramsy murder investigation by Steve Thomas who who was the detective and
00:33:53
onetime lead on the case the the very beginning of his book he he's a police officer he's a
00:34:00
detective working for Boulder for the city of Boulder and he spends the beginning of his book talking about how
00:34:07
outrageous and how plea deal deals were a common theme in the county courts out there in
00:34:15
Boulder leading up to this leading up to the murder of Jean Benet and I think uh
00:34:22
Stephen singular the author who wrote presumed guilty uh actually there's a part in the book
00:34:30
where he's interviewing detective uh Wickman and Wickman hints to something and says you know I had I was looking to
00:34:42
Arrest A city councilman but I I don't have the book in front of me but the paraphrase you know I was told to back
00:34:49
down that's what you're dealing with in Boulder so when you start building these
00:34:54
cases up is it really any wonder why this case isn't solved and it gets worse I mean the battle Cas is is really
00:35:03
horrific but these cases keep on going one for example is the Jerry Barry case right that's a child pornography case oh
00:35:10
AB Jerry Barry this is this is one of my favorites and he he lived relatively close to the ramsy
00:35:19
correct uh well he he didn't uh live really close but he he worked worked as the treasurer for First Baptist Church
00:35:31
okay which was pretty much down the block and across the street from St John's Episcopal the
00:35:37
Ramsey Church which is uh you know which is minutes away from the Ramsey home but
00:35:44
uh yeah Jerry Barry so he's he's the treasurer for First Baptist Church he's arrested and this was I want to say
00:35:55
1999 so first First Baptist used to have a program where they helped families that were down on their luck
00:36:05
and a woman shows up with you know with three kids three three girls and of course they're gonna help him out Jerry
00:36:14
Barry is gonna take a personal interest in him so he starts to uh take the kids to his house with the mother's
00:36:24
permission and eventually what happens is is that he starts taking pictures of him in different states of
00:36:33
undress now these these girls were I think four five and seven and strangely enough they had a brother and the
00:36:42
brother from the town they came from which escapes me at the moment the brother was in
00:36:48
jail for molesting his sisters that's right forgot about so these girls already went through the ringer
00:36:57
with their brother now the mother takes him to First Baptist Church they're going to get help and they Jerry Barry
00:37:06
is the one that's gonna help him and he like I said he starts taking pictures of
00:37:11
them in different state you know topless he shows the pictures to the mother she's fine with it so what does that
00:37:19
tell you the mother's okay with what he's doing and then you know the station starts in the bathtub
00:37:29
well I'm not going to go when the kids were so young I'm not really going to go into it right so then they make an
00:37:33
arrest they arrest him uh they take out film making equipment from his house uh cameras
00:37:44
that's how he that's how he even got arrested was he brought film to be developed and the person developing the
00:37:50
film back in 1999 saw what was on the camera and called the cops and that's how they arrested him so they got him
00:37:59
dead to rights then we're told he actually has a prior in another state for the same
00:38:07
thing they surmise that he is also a child uh pornographer and that's coming because I wound up getting in touch with
00:38:15
uh one of the officers directly involved in the case itself and that question I posed directly to the officer I said was
00:38:24
he involved in child pornography and they said yes we believe he was a child pornographer in the area that's what he
00:38:30
was doing for his own use or for to to to sell sell or trade for appar apparently both personal and and to sell
00:38:43
because they brought in the Postal Service to track where this where the pornography was going and to who and
00:38:50
that's when the investigation got shut down plea bargain of course and the office officer I was talking with when I
00:38:58
when I mentioned you know what what the thoughts were when the plea bargain came
00:39:03
down this officer said I literally fell off my chair it's a quote I mean how could you not be
00:39:11
shocked and that person that worked uh on that case wound up leaving I would I would too she uh yeah I think she yeah
00:39:20
went to the West Coast but uh yeah another plea bargain when you have the and as the the district attorney you
00:39:27
have the photographs and you've traced and tracked photographs in in child pornography that was sent through the US
00:39:34
mail and yet you're still there's no at that point there's no reason for a plea bargain you have the you have the
00:39:41
evidence to show the jury look how the disgusting this person is the laws that he's breaking he's not fit to live in
00:39:49
our society he belongs Behind Bars you're not you you wouldn't find a jury that wouldn't convict that guy and yet
00:39:56
you're you're letting him get a plea bargain yeah it gets more interesting once the plea bargain is handed down
00:40:02
Jerry Barry breaks parole well wait wait wait first who whoa before before you get to the parole yeah to to get to
00:40:10
Nick's point that he just made what I think happened is that they didn't want to know where who else had the
00:40:19
pornography that's why they shut the down pled the case out but here's the thing now remember this is
00:40:28
1999 this isn't 1977 this isn't Slusher times this is 1999 this is nearly three years after
00:40:37
the murder of John Benet Ramsey you figure you want to make an example out of these people right yeah you figure
00:40:43
the town has learned its lesson that they're going to be they're going to get to be hard on on pedophiles they plead
00:40:51
them out to house arrest no jail time lifetime probation so we're going to your sentence is to be sent and confined
00:41:03
to the place that you were commit committing a lot of these crimes yeah and obviously no cont no
00:41:10
contact with children a lifetime you know probation you know you you can you know that's it you're you're on the hook
00:41:16
now you know you got to watch your steps so he breaks parole he breaks it he he he he breaks the uh the probation so for
00:41:25
for sure they send him to jail no he doesn't go to jail then he breaks uh the probation a second time now that's
00:41:35
that's the one for sure they're going to send him to the slammer nope doesn't happen a third time nope doesn't happen
00:41:44
four times it took now it starts to get to the point where and this is what Ali gray always told me about the Ramsay
00:41:53
case he's like you want to get to the bottom of of what happened figure out who knew who that's how this case is
00:42:02
going to get solved and and you get people to talk and that's how that's how you do it he would tell me that every
00:42:10
almost every time we talked why did why was Jerry Barry in 1999 given especially in a short span after the
00:42:22
murder of John B Ramsey given that kind of treatment who was he giving pornography to who was
00:42:30
he selling to was that what they were afraid of that he knew names this guy was wealthy he owned 14
00:42:40
cars no license though and he owned a company called Berry Enterprises which was obviously a front company that
00:42:50
nobody could figure out even uh L Smith couldn't figure out what that company was doing act we have an idea but nobody
00:42:58
could pin it down and have actual proof of what that company really did so so that's the very case let's expand on
00:43:06
your guys's knowledge and you did a little look into the background of Alex Hunter who as we just discussed was the
00:43:14
person in charge and and could have put a lot of these terrible people away for a very very long time and maybe you know
00:43:23
uh was a little relaxed in that effort but tell us a little bit more about the background of Alex Hunter the district
00:43:30
attorney oh I think I said it earlier he came into office in 1972 he I I guess he thought he was a a
00:43:38
Real Estate Mogul back then because he he was into real estate making a bunch of
00:43:44
deals with with his law partner at the time who was also involved in those land deals of Bill wise and the deals went
00:43:54
South and he was pretty much bankrupted he owed creditors I think uh let's see he filed
00:44:02
for bankruptcy in 74 28 secured creditors another dozen unsecured creditors and I think he owed him $6
00:44:14
million this is your district attorney and this is when he first starts that's that's the beginning of
00:44:21
Alex Hunter and he he initially ran on a hard line against Crime when he first started and the
00:44:35
uh defense attorneys in the area complained that their workload was too much so they ended it
00:44:43
and that's when the plea bargain uh train got rolling and never stopped you know he's been he's been
00:44:50
married four times uh I that's pretty much it for Alex Hunter for his basic background a person to be in that
00:45:00
position and to be that much in debt is an obvious it's very easy to go from that to being
00:45:09
compromised number one and then number two here with with Alex Hunter it's he he's an office till what roughly
00:45:21
2000 2001 he yeah he he he tired yeah I think he stepped down in 2000 that's a long time to be in office it's like your
00:45:34
own little kingdom yeah you know it's he spent 28 years in office and he was he always uh
00:45:46
ran unopposed but what brought him down was the Ramsey case well and you're going to
00:45:52
have somebody out there that's going to say but Nick you know you're saying he's
00:45:56
letting these these these sickos plea out to Shorter sentences maybe no jail time but but he ran on a platform on
00:46:06
being tough on crime well my response to that would be if you if that's your argument look nobody's ever won an
00:46:13
election by announcing that they're going to be soft on crime so it's just it's just part of the uh packaging for
00:46:21
uh getting that job as far as I'm concerned yeah part of the political world that's right now what what I
00:46:27
thought was so much fun I I had talked to you guys a handful of times and very much enjoyed our conversations and then
00:46:34
I sat down and I read Steph singler's very good book presumed guilty and I had no clue that this was going to happen at
00:46:42
some point he starts talking about you guys and he and he he referred to it as the zel Brothers probe the zel Brothers
00:46:50
investigation into the Jean Benet Ramsey case as so talk about what it is that you guys set out to do in 1997 and maybe
00:47:00
some of the more famous individuals or people that were are very close to this case that you met and interacted with
00:47:07
along the way well as I had mentioned earlier in 197 in 1997 so we I mean we literally got involved in this case
00:47:17
almost from the beginning uh I think we started looking into it Jim what about three days after
00:47:26
yeah it was right away yeah the the 29th of 96 and I don't know if you want us to
00:47:35
mention how we got going on our I I guess we can mention it uh if we can do it quick yeah so 1996 we start
00:47:47
looking into it and you know to us it just it just the whole thing looked off and that's when I called my brother and
00:47:56
I said Jim you know maybe we should just take a look around the town you know see
00:48:02
if this is in our uh wheelhouse and it didn't take long just a couple of days and my brother will tell you the the
00:48:10
phone call that set us off on a 27e journey well before we get into 27 years originally you thought you would solve
00:48:18
this in how long oh well I originally told my brother I said Jim this won't take long probably a
00:48:23
year the mar missed it by that much beautiful but it wasn't for a lack of trying right yes yes
00:48:34
well so tell us about the phone call you know you're talking about the early days
00:48:38
of the internet right so where do you really go to get your information about a town you know you you always go to the
00:48:46
library you know that that that was your resource that's where the history of a town is it's Town's memory is the
00:48:53
library the people that work at the library know the people of the town so that's who I called I called the uh
00:48:59
Boulder library and I asked to speak it to someone uh and they put on put me on I don't know if it was the head
00:49:06
librarian it was just a librarian and I asked her a very simple question I said I'm calling in regards to this case of
00:49:14
this little girl I said is this the first time that's ever happened or I mean is this
00:49:21
usual what what happens here and you know can you give me you know what do you think happened and she said well and
00:49:28
this is what she said things happened to our kids here in Boulder that we don't like to talk
00:49:35
about and then she said to be honest with you I'm a little uncomfortable talking with you on the phone about it
00:49:41
so I'm gonna go and then I said hm I said okay things happen like things happen to our kids here that we don't
00:49:48
like to talk about that almost sounds like the from right out of the the novel Stephen King's It Right something going
00:49:55
on here uh with the kids and they're they're they're getting pulled and Vanishing off the streets and but but
00:50:03
we're so unsettled with everything that we're not we don't even discuss it yeah so that's when I called my brother I say
00:50:09
hey Frank you know I think we need to look at this a little further yeah and then I found a mechanic who didn't go
00:50:16
that far but talked about rumors of things happening the kids and then we were kind of off and running and we
00:50:25
formed Med our theory of the case probably Midway through January 1997 and we called it the sex ring case
00:50:33
and as I said earlier we do not believe that John and paty Ramsey killed their daughter not at all we believe that they
00:50:44
may have been they may have been involved in something that led to their daughter
00:50:49
being killed and then for whatever reason helped cover it up that was was our Theory and we had certain goals that we
00:50:59
wanted to I shouldn't call them goals we thought our if our theory was going to be
00:51:06
correct that certain things were going to happen and we've me and my brother have
00:51:14
worked other cases over the years and when you start to predict the future of the case or things that happen in the
00:51:22
case and you're predicting it ahead of time you're usually on the right track so we said okay sex ring
00:51:32
Theory you know were there sex rings in the town we found that out relatively quickly that there were sex Rings
00:51:39
operating in bowler in the Ramsey case we would have to find someone who would come forward and
00:51:48
accuse either John py or someone close to them of child sexual abuse so we started digging in Boulder now
00:52:00
meanwhile while we're looking for that witness and we have a and we had a plan or I had a plan for sure that if we
00:52:07
found the witness that would make that claim at the time I had a a place that they could stay we get them out of
00:52:18
Boulder I get them on the East Coast put them up that way they'd have no worries
00:52:23
hire private investigators to investigate their claims and then get a reporter to write an article on what the
00:52:32
private investigators could prove and hence put pressure on the bould the police department that was the goal to
00:52:38
find the witness and then lo and behold a witness comes forward but just not as we thought it
00:52:45
would be which would be locally in in Boulder this witness came from California and she came forward she was
00:52:54
under um therapeutic care she was uh and and the therapist she was seeing said yes you
00:53:02
know what she's saying is is valid because her claim that she was uh abused in California right what reminded her she
00:53:13
when when she heard about the John Benet case she was like Hey Not only was she abused the way I was abused but there
00:53:21
are players that are involved with her that were involved in my abuse thanks for listening thanks for
00:53:39
telling a friend make sure you join me back here in the garage for part two with the zel Brothers until then be good
00:53:46
be kind and don't litter [Music] [Applause] [Music]