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[Music] Heat. Heat. [Music] Welcome to True Crime Garage. Wherever you are, whatever you are doing, thanks
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for listening. I'm your host, Nick, and I say turkey for the girls and turkey for the boys. And here's a guy whose
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favorite kind of pants are corduroys. Here's the captain. >> I really did like corduroy pants in high
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school. It's good to be seen and it's good to see you. Thanks for listening. Thanks for telling a friend.
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[Music] You know what would be great with Thanksgiving dinner? A little shot of whiskey with a refreshing lemon chanty
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chaser. That's right, baby. Today we are still sipping on Shady Spot by our good
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friends over at Susahana Brewing Company. ABV 4.5% garage grade four and a quarter bottle caps out of five. And
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let's start off with a big huge thank you to Porsche and Parts Unknown. >> Hey, big cheers to Amela and Boise,
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Idaho. Next, we have a nice contribution to this week's beer fund from Frank and
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Estelle Catstanza from Dell Boca Vista Retirement Community in Los Angeles. Catstanza,
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>> can't stand you. And a big shout out to Allison and Ledgewood, New Jersey. And
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here is a double cheers to Jen and MJ at Center Caps Direct. They are out in Naka
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Nowhere, which I believe is just one county over from Parts Unknown. So, cheers to Jen and MJ, and cheers to
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everyone who contributed to this week's garage fridge fillup beer run. Thank you
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guys so much for supporting the show this year. Big things happening as this is our last show.
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Big things are happening cuz we're we're quitting. No, just joking. Big things happening in 2021.
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And I hope 2000 I hope everybody made it through 2020 and that is enough of the business. All
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right, everybody gather around, grab a chair, grab a beer. Let's talk some true crime.
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[Music] [Applause] [Music] We are continuing our discussion with John Douglas, retired FBI special agent
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John Douglas. You know him from the behavioral science unit. You may know him from the wonderful show Mind Hunter.
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Picking up where we left off, we were discussing one of my favorite books, Law and Disorder, and in particular, The
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West Memphis 3 case. Mr. Douglas, when you met Mark Buyers, there was a dramatic contrast to your meeting with
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Terry Hobbs. At first, Mark Buyers was off-put and not very welcoming to your conversation, but he very quickly warmed
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up to you and then became very much an open book. Whereas Terry Hobbs put on the facade of being welcoming and
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interested in talking to you. However, as the conversation went along, he became aggressive and became dodgy to
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your questions. He wanted Yeah, he very much so he a word got out that you know that that uh he wanted to get have
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somebody uh get rid of me uh and uh like contract to have me killed uh but buyers
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you're exactly right. I when I sat on that porch of his hot as heck down there sweating and and he got angry as hell
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and his wife was there uh and uh initially I started talking. I was on the porch like an hour or so and then
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finally I was invited into the house and I spent hours upon hours you know you know with him and just assessing him and
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I mean I mean he's not the most uh uh stable person uh at that certainly but he's he he didn't
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kill he didn't kill his you know his his child the a different feel too that I had when I spoke when I spoke to Terry
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Hobbs and uh initially spoke with him at a shopping center trying to get gain his
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trust and then when I started gain information on him and he got really pissed off at me when I we were able to
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track down uh years earlier uh how he uh broke into a house, a neighbor's house and uh as she was taking a shower and he
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tried to molest her tried to molest this woman. He thought that record was purged
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and it wasn't available and so he had that. He also shot his brother, his brother-in-law, and he was also
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extremely violent to his to his children, his son and his young son and daughter, and to his, you know, to his
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uh his wife. Uh his his wife is a believer that uh that he is responsible for that crime, but no one's going to
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really, you know, you know, do no one's really working it. Uh as far as they're concerned, it's solved. They don't have
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to pay they don't have to pay any money uh to uh you know to uh Damon Eckl and Jesse and Jason Baldwin uh any state
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money uh because they had the pled the Alfred plea uh and uh so to this day they're they're sex offenders these
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these three I I did a presentation with Amanda Knox and Jesse Miss Kelly about a
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year and a half ago up in uh up in New York And uh you could see we just they I took a chunk out of their lives. It's
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like they're it's like they're they're behind developmentally, emotionally because of
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the time that was they spent a period of time in their lives in uh in prison. Particularly uh uh Damian and and it was
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the same too with Amanda. It's the same same thing. Speaking of interviewing parents of victims and also parents that
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may be considered suspects, you were directly involved in the still unsolved homicide of six-year-old John Benet
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Ramsay. For those who are yet to read the cases that haunt us. Can you explain how you became involved in the case?
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>> Yeah, I was in um I happened to be in Utah at the time speaking at a university when I got a call from an
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investigator who's working on defense team. I didn't know who he was and uh they asked me that if I would like to
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participate in in the investigation and I and uh I told a colleague of mine who used to work for me in in the unit I I
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accepted it and I and I said uh this family is guilty you know in the back of my mind I'm thinking that you know
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they're guilty because what I was reading in the papers is what was being presented on on television. So, I I go
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over and I meet the uh the attorneys at in in Denver and u an old mansion they have as a uh as an office. And inside of
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what would be the living room, there's a is an enclosed enc casement of a it's like a fiberglass room within the room
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and go in there. So, I'm thinking in the back of my mind, what are these guys going to do? They're going to they're
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going to like offer me money or something. They're going to pay me. I'm going to give him a rash of crap, man.
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Walk right out on him. But they I got in there and and I sat down and and they said, "John, we don't know. We really
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don't know. We don't know. Just he said, "We don't think they did it. Uh we but we we'd like you to take a look what we
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have. Can we present to you what what we have?" And I said, "Yeah." He says, "But
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you know um and they are going to pay me. They're going to pay me, but the pay people think I was became a millionaire.
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$1,500. I spent a lot of time. I testified out there and everything. Uh and because once I realized I was not
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working for I was working for victims, wasn't working for offenders. I was working for victims of a violent crime
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who had been go who are now in the process of being revictimized uh by being accused of killing a child.
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But once I saw how how she was how she was murdered and the things that was done to her that was wasn't all made
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made uh public uh and and uh parents killed believe me we have had plenty of cases parents killed but not
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like this not like this not in this uh with this family this this type of family you know either uh they don't
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kill like like this so I did the analysis I I met with uh uh the family uh and uh went actually uh first thing I
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did I went to the house and kind of re reenacted reconstructed things to see where they were uh their bedroom was was
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their bedroom was up like in an attic that was made into a master bedroom and the children are on the next floor down
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and you can't hear anything with the air conditioning heating units going you really can't hear anything if anyone was
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down below you uh there um but I looked at when I look at a case like that Okay,
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you're looking at then I'm looking at pre-offense behavior, post-defense behavior. What's going on in their
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lives, you know, and I didn't see anything in pre-offense behavior that it would that I it was out of the ordinary
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or unusual. It's Christmas time. They're going to Charavoy, Michigan for the holidays, and I think they're going to
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work their way down to Disney World. Uh, and I don't see anything there. Uh, now
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we perpetrate the crime. Okay, the crime has been perpetrated. Let's take a look
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at that. And then I saw where the investigators asked uh John and a neighbor, Fleetwood,
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to take a look around, see if anything's out of the ordinary. Take a look downstairs in this basement. So they
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they go down there. Usually when a parent kills, what we found over the years that the parent the parent who did
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the killing, it won't be the one to find the body. He'll get somebody else, the person with them. or if it's searching
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in a yard or something with a s or a search party, they may they are not going to be the one to find the child.
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In this situation here, Fleet White goes down. John goes into this room, checks,
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it's a it's a wine celler, but there's no wine. They don't even drink. And there he finds uh uh his daughter, "Oh
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my god, my baby," he he shouts out. And uh she has tape over her mouth, her hands are over her head. Uh uh tied uh
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together. Uh he doesn't know it yet, but she is gared. Uh and uh he then picks her up, carries her upstairs, lays her
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down in the eventually in the I guess it's in the the living room. Bunch of people are up there. Everything's
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contaminated. Uh and uh they're trying to bring her back to life, rubbing her body that's in rigger. And uh there's a
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little bruise on her on her forehead. So, she has a bruise on her forehead. She uh has been gared. They can't even
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see the garage. She's been gared and a piece of the the paintbrush is used to to for as a handle to gar with a rope
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that in this this nylon rope that they never found where this rope was that Ramsey didn't have and they didn't find
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any other pieces of it. uh they find wood fibers from uh from a uh from the same paintbrush in a vaginal uh vaginal
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area. She was been penetrated with uh believe now with that with that stick. That's how that that uh you know got
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there. uh when they they start the autopsy and they remove uh the skull or the the skin on the skull uh
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surprisingly they find that the skull has been uh cracked open like a like a coconut like 8 8 and 1/2 in in length
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but why is there just a little red slight red mark on her forehead and my gosh to break your skull you'd think
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there'd be some kind of edema there'd be swelling and blood And uh well why is because the she was dead or on her last
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breath when when uh the person responsible wasn't satisfied enough uh with uh w with the uh uh with the death
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itself. So he he does her in with it wasn't necessary for the to kill. She's already you know dead from from the uh
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the garat. Uh and so uh and then the letter the other thing the letter right the famous two and a half page letter
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and the FBI was against me. Police hated me around the country and and you know never saw a 2 and 1/2 page letter and
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yeah that's right they're right about that. However, when would the letter have been written is the question. You
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mean to tell me that after the the RA tell me the Ramsies have been murdered, now you're going to write a two and a
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half page letter uh uh this threatening letter asking for money and the money coincides roughly to what a bonus that
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John Ramsay have. But you're you're going to be pulling in into this letter different different verses that are
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coming right out of movies out of out of movies like Ransom uh and uh and you're
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going to have the presence of mind to you know to do something like that after after uh the crime. No, you're you're
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not you're not going to have that that kind of presence of mind. So I just saw so many different different things and
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you know the bureau they were angry you know you know like I I may be you know I
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like when I saw Alex Hunter talking before the public we know you're out there we know there's going to be
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there's more than one of you I knew I knew that he was coached by without anyone telling me. I mean, I I I
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invented this stuff that that that he was being told by by the agents of of what to say, but I'm not telling I'm not
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so telling the the uh the defense what they're doing here, what what you know, what their tactics are. I'm not doing
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it. I would have loved to been, you know, been able to solve that case if it was them to come up and get a a
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confession out of him, but that was not that was, you know, not the case. And and it was it was a broken man. And I
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I'd met Janna several times. Uh and uh a a broken a broken man. Uh Paty Ramsay's
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stage. She was in remission. Cancer returned. She dies. Everyone was waiting for a dying declaration. There was no
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dying declaration. She didn't kill her kill her daughter. John is since remarried. CBS comes out with a a TV
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show with these so-called FBI, some former agent expert experts in quotes and and uh forensic experts and and a
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and a come up with this theory that more than a theory, but an accusation that that that uh Burke Ramsey is responsible
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for the uh you the death. I mean, I was I was watching that. and think, "Holy mackerel, you can't say something like
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that." I mean, here Burke is, you know, he's I'm not going to say where he lives, but I I've come across him over
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the the years. I mean, he he did not uh hit his sister accidentally or whatever on on purpose. In fact, if if the
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parents knew that, they never would have allowed him to talk to the police alone
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without even the parents the parents in the presence of of Burke. Uh so that's another one of these cases where you
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know they they what they did what they did Nick is they and you see this sometimes on cases you you let they let
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a theory drive an investigation and they let certain evidence that supports the theory in and they disallow some
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evidence that doesn't fit the theory out you know so so they let that theory you
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know drive it not being driven by evidence of any kind or uh forensic or uh evidence or whatever uh eyewitness
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testimony. No, the letting a letting a theory. Uh and you know why? Because two because you had a you didn't have a
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homicide investigator work in that case. You had a drug investigator uh work in that narcotics officer work in that
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case. And because they have so few cases, they rotate them out there in Boulder. And so the mindset of a a
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narcotics officer is different than a homicide officer. A narcotronics officer knows comes knows you're dealing, knows
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it's you. I know it's you. I'm going to make a case on you. I'm going to make it, you know, on you. I'm going to build
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a case all around you. Informants, whatever. We're going to get you. Well, you get that mindset in the homicide
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case. I know he did it. I know the the certain behavior. Paty, when they brought the child up, uh Paty was there,
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her fingers were spled across her face, peeking through her eyes, and all that other other nonsense stuff. No, you let
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you let a uh uh you you let a theory drive your investigation. You you you're into a narcotics investigation mindset,
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not a homicide investigators. And that's why who's the investigator from Colorado
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Springs? Uh L. Smith. >> Yeah, that's what I was going to say. As soon as you are brought in to take a
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look at the case and as soon as the famous homicide detective, the late great Lid is brought in to take a look
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at the case. The two of you separately come up with very similar conclusions. It's the famous L. Smith intruder
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theory. >> I when I when I testified with the grand jury and then uh he test he testified I
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guess before I did some a different day and I I testified uh uh afterwards they said that L Smith wanted to speak with
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me and over in Colorado Springs. Great guy. Really great guy. And uh so they drove me over there and and uh I knock
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on his door and he comes to the door and he said introduce ourselves. He said, "John," he said, "I don't know. I don't
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know how you did it. It took me 10 months or 10 months. You came up with this in four days, four or five days,
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whatever, whatever it was." And he said, "And you didn't see everything. And I've
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got everything. I got everything here. I'd like to go through the case or PowerPoint presentation and and with
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you." I said that'd be great. So I went down in his basement. He went through the whole case and I hadn't seen even
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everything but things I didn't see. I just I I I just uh certain case I had to make assumptions. Uh everything just fit
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and uh then they were coming out that you know that uh that that Lou and myself that the family was religious
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that that we were that we were being pulled into the Ramsies because of uh our fa because of faith and no
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we've both of us have been in and investigators of all types we'll we'll arrest religious people. We don't don't
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don't uh you don't care. But but if we don't like, you know, wrongful convictions and and destroying the lives
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of, you know, of of people, I mean, it's terrible to to lose your child, but now
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to be to be accused of killing uh killing your child and and uh and that's where when you get into Nick the like
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social media where it can be dangerous. A lot of social media could be good where you can develop help and actually
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can help law enforcement with leads and people discussion and there's been some websites that been very very successful
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but then you got others you know which can totally could jeopardize uh investig investigation and shape the attitude of
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of people. I remember right after that too I'm on a train going up to New York and and there's a guy in front of me and
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and this is after I did an anal analysis. back and and and on the night of the crime it was like the head on the
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night of the crime py was with with was without her lover and I'm thinking what the hell so I when I get to New York I
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call I said I was did was was Py having an affair with some guy you not telling me what are you talking about and I said
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this guy it's one of these rag tabloid things you I saw this on a train no it's garbage it's garbage but you can see how
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people see that that kind of crap you know and and and and start believing, you know, start believing in it. And you
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can't you can't sway their their their opinion at all. [Music] [Applause] [Music]
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[Applause] [Music] Do you think we will ever know who killed Jean Benet? >> I hope so. I mean, I don't know. You
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hear different things of a, you know, if they brought in They've had some good suspect. They had
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one good suspect there. They had several. I mean, uh, the the place was full of, uh, sex offenders all around
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the areas where where Paty and John were living there. But then there was one guy
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who, uh, who committed suicide. Uh, he had access to a stun gun. See the police discount that SL Smith went over the
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stun gun and showed me they did they did test with a uh a medical doctor on pigs
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uh using a stun gun showing the marks of similarities here. I mean hopefully you
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know DNA familial DNA or something will you know will solve that uh that case one one day but I don't know if they're
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they're working and I hear once in a while you hear like a new attorney general come in. we're going to take a
00:22:43
new look at the case or the the uh a prosecutor uh wants to take a look at the case. But, you know, hopefully I
00:22:51
mean uh it can look at the Golden State case. I mean, after all these years, I mean, we worked that case the unit I
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just worked the I worked when it was the East Area Rapist, the rapes, uh that that he was he was doing and uh we
00:23:05
didn't wasn't responsible. was just DNA. DNA got him, which was uh after so many
00:23:11
years a police officer uh was responsible. >> We're all very excited for the release
00:23:18
of your new book, The Killer's Shadow: The FBI's Hunt for a White Supremist serial killer. Can you tell us a little
00:23:26
bit about your latest book? This is a is a different kind of serial killer and it was a case that uh the
00:23:34
first case that the bureau would give me only because they've uh of an supervisor
00:23:39
on the civil rights division uh uh squad up at headquarters knew we knew each other from Milwaukee division. We're on
00:23:46
the same SWAT team together and I he knew I was doing this research on serial murders and going into prisons and he
00:23:53
calls me to see if I could be of uh be of help. So this would be different Nick. would not be a profile so much as
00:23:59
it would be an assessment. Uh like so you got to kind of do your old show years ago was called this is your life
00:24:05
you know and uh and they would do this background of total background of a guy. So I would go up to headquarters and uh
00:24:14
yeah it and there was a lot of pressure because if I screw this thing up I'm just starting to get going here and not
00:24:21
not everyone is supportive within the organization of me doing any of this this research. uh uh they just don't
00:24:28
understand, you know, what the purpose of it is, even though we're helping local police and the later international
00:24:33
police departments here. So, so the assessment is is that the the latest thing with Franklin is is that he's
00:24:41
linked to over 20 homicides. He travel he's a he's prolific bank robber. Uh he unlike serial killers that have a
00:24:49
particular comfort zone for the crimes, this guy is all over the place. He's all
00:24:54
over the map. Uh uh he's a bomber. Some of his cases are a bombing. Uh he is a uh bank bank robber, prolific bank
00:25:05
robber. Uh he is a it turns out to be an excellent shot with a rifle uh uh in in
00:25:12
in fact excellent shot with only one eye because when he as a youth he lost the side of eyes in his right eye uh in an
00:25:21
accident. People think it's said it was a bicycle. No, it wasn't a bicycle accident. It was a shade, an old window
00:25:27
shade with a spring inside. And he was playing with his brother. The spring came out, popped him right in the eye.
00:25:33
Mother took him to the hospital. A mother who is extremely abusive to him. A father extremely again very very
00:25:40
abusive uh to him and and his brothers and and sisters. Mother takes him to the hospital. The doctor says, "We can't do
00:25:48
anything right now. We'll it's temporary, but bring him back in a couple months. we'll do some surgery and
00:25:53
we'll make his eye good as new. She doesn't do that. She doesn't take him back as a young child to the hospital.
00:25:59
He ends up losing his sight and he he then uh what a way to overcompensate the loss of sight is to be an excellent
00:26:06
shot. Uh uh he wanted to be a police officer too. Another one. He said, "Oh, another guy wants to be an officer." And
00:26:12
uh when when he heard through a neighbor who was a police officer that he couldn't join because of the loss of of
00:26:19
one eye he extremely angry and bitter again towards his uh you know towards his mother hated hated his mother and
00:26:29
his father. That's why he would he would he would change his name to Joseph. His
00:26:32
name was James Vaughn. He would change his name to Joseph Paul Franklin. And then uh uh he then was gravitated to uh
00:26:42
these uh KKK different uh these radical hate hate groups uh American Nazi party passing
00:26:50
out literature. Today he would have a field day with the internet uh access. Uh but then what he realized was because
00:26:58
he was paranoid that uh these organizations were pretty much uh uh infiltrated by FBI by FBI informants and
00:27:07
they were keeping good tabs on them uh on the these organizations back there back then and they were primarily you
00:27:15
know talking the talk but not walking the walk and he got became frustrated and uh decided to go out on his own and
00:27:24
and the so-called birth of the the lone wolf lone wolf uh criminal and it just started by tailing interracial couples.
00:27:32
First one was up in Maryland. Uh he maceed them, but then that was after the macing them that was the last time he
00:27:40
used mace. From then on in, he would uh he would start uh using uh uh various firearms. He he shot Larry Flint uh the
00:27:51
of uh Flint uh Hustler magazine. He shot he shot him. Uh he shot uh Vernon Jordan
00:28:00
uh civil rights leader. Uh you know at at the time he wrote a threatening letter to uh to uh Jimmy Carter. Uh
00:28:08
Secret Service was u uh when he wasn't identified yet was was trying to figure out, you know, who done it. So I what I
00:28:16
said was with him the long and short of it is I came up with an assessment that predicted where he would go in the in
00:28:22
the country and that would be now now that he's a fugitive he's a top 10 uh yeah he committed these crimes all
00:28:30
around these other areas but he's going to he's going to be a homing pigeon now he's going back to Mobile it's going
00:28:36
back to Mobile and then and to Florida he may not be robbing banks because we we'll have a lot of these banks be
00:28:44
notified I'd staked out and uh but the teletype then it was teletypes uh was an internet teletype goes out he's
00:28:52
spotted in Mobile Alabama the agent in charge of the office calls me and wants to know the name of the bank or savings
00:28:59
alone I think this guy is going to be robbing I said what I said what do you I can't I don't know I you didn't even
00:29:06
know what city he was in I I told you what city he's in so he was there temporarily uh they spotted him
00:29:12
surveillance camera and blood bank and then they they uh passed out flyers on him through all these different blood
00:29:19
banks in the in the deep south out in Florida and that's where he would be he would be spotted uh in a blood blood
00:29:26
bank. So, uh, got him there. I coached, they'll say, I coached the, uh, the, uh,
00:29:32
agent on the interview a little bit. Uh, but then I got to interview him, uh, later on in the, uh, the late ' 80s, 90
00:29:42
90ish, uh, with a with a Secret Service agent. You would have thought, Nick, that Secret Service would have had a
00:29:47
behavioral science unit uh, over the years. They did not have a unit like we had. they they had not done research
00:29:53
like we were doing with violent uh crimes uh at all. And so I did a couple of cases for Secret Service over the
00:30:00
years. Turned out pretty good. And so then they sent down uh a guy great a great guy he's passed away uh Ken Baker
00:30:09
secret service and and uh we we conducted uh we some research on assassin interviewed like squeaky from
00:30:17
who shot Ford Sarah Jane Moore who shot Ford Arthur Bremer who shot George Wallace James Earl Ray shot Dr. Martin
00:30:24
Luther, Luther King and other assassination style of per killings. And that's why we interviewed Franklin
00:30:31
because he had that assassination style of killing. And uh the problem is is that and we come up with this killer
00:30:39
shadow is that to this day he still cast a shadow a long shadow uh because there
00:30:45
are others like him out there. He's now he's been executed 2013 but uh uh there are others who the law
00:30:56
enforcement come across now and then who uh are emulating people you know like him who who are being influenced today
00:31:05
not so much like the old days where it would be in a some some hall room or meeting or some someone's basement. Now
00:31:13
it's on the internet where you can have uh you can have there's hundreds and hundreds of sites these uh racist sites,
00:31:21
anti-semitic sites where where someone can gravitate to that and not everyone go will go out and can perpetrate acts
00:31:29
of violence but but someone may and someone will will see that and and take action like a you know like this uh uh
00:31:39
uh Joseph uh Paul Franklin uh you know character And so it's and so it's much it's difficult today to investigate
00:31:47
them. In the old days you had an organization. Now you have you have someone who could be influencing others
00:31:53
but it's not they're not tied into there's no hierarchy. There's no leader and soldiers you know none of that
00:32:00
lieutenants like an organized crime even you don't have you don't have anything like that. So it makes it extremely
00:32:06
difficult for law enforcement and law enforcement resources are very skimpy particularly after 9/11 the emphasis was
00:32:13
on uh was on international terrorism the deemphasis on uh because of resources on domestic uh domestic
00:32:21
terrorism. So, it's uh you it's not over. You'll there'll be others other cases. Unfortunately, uh,
00:32:30
you know, hopefully we can what we we can rely on is is information from the public when they see someone who's
00:32:39
becoming obsessed with with hatred and anti-semitic uh, anti- everything or African-Americans
00:32:48
and it's becoming uh, obsessed with weapons and other maybe weapons of destruction. uh law enforcement can't be
00:32:58
everywhere at every time. Sometimes they rely on public information from anonymous sources that that's what they
00:33:06
need to follow up uh the leads to see if this person you know if they can if we'll carry out uh a uh you know this
00:33:14
you a violent act. It's kind of like a school shooter. You may you have certain indicators but you you can't always
00:33:21
predict for 100%. you can interact inter or intercede and and uh uh take some action with the family or
00:33:30
yeah and give this person counseling or whatever. Uh but very very difficult very very difficult for law enforcement.
00:33:38
So they're going to that's what they'll see in this book. They'll see the evolution of him how and and uh kind of
00:33:44
like like the the uh Sunny Bono and Sher the beat goes on and the beat goes on. There'll be more, unfortunately.
00:33:53
There'll be more of them, probably cases like this in in the future. >> Mr. Douglas, thank you again for your
00:33:59
time today and for doing the interview. You've been more than generous with us here in the garage.
00:34:05
>> Thanks for having me again and we're working on another one for next year. Next year we'll be doing one. uh they
00:34:11
want us to do like kind of like an end rule thing like one case that sometimes be a case that I've worked or maybe case
00:34:18
to take a look at you know a new case uh investigate uh try to come up with a solution or so so have me back.
00:34:27
>> Yes sir. As soon as you're done with this next book we'd love to have you back.
00:34:30
>> Thank you so much. I enjoyed it. Keep up the good work. >> Thank you Mr. Douglas for joining us in
00:34:34
the garage. [Music] [Applause] Thank you so much for joining us here in the garage, letting us be a part of your
00:34:51
week, letting us be a part of your holidays. Colonel, do we have any recommended reading this week?
00:34:58
>> We have a lot to recommend today. First off, the True Crime Garage every single
00:35:04
episode archive is available for your listening pleasure when you download the free Stitcher listening app on your
00:35:11
device. That's right, over 440 episodes to listen to for free, including the last time Mr. John Douglas was on the
00:35:20
show back in May of 2019 in the John Douglas Mind Hunter episode number 302. Also, we will be recommending a batch of
00:35:31
John Douglas's books. We recommended The Killer's Shadow last week, and you heard
00:35:36
us reference in our discussion this week some of his other great books, including
00:35:41
The Cases That Haunt Us: Law and Disorder, and The Killer Across the Table. We will have all of those great
00:35:48
titles listed on our recommended page at true crimegar.com. Here is us wishing all of you and yours
00:35:55
a very safe and happy Thanksgiving. Be good, be thankful, and please don't live.
00:36:10
[Music]