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>> Welcome to Off the Record. I'm your host Nick Crime. >> It's good to be seen and it's good to
00:01:14
see you. Off the record. Thanks for listening. Thanks for telling a friend. >> True Crime podcast.
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>> Be good. Be kind. and don't little crime. >> Gather around, grab a chair, grab a
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beer. Let's talk some true crime. >> In July of 2017, police unveiled the composite sketch of
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Bridge Guy, the the Deli double homicide suspect. And then quite a bit later, we
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get several months later, we get the New Direction press conference, as it's often referred to as, where we get a a
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new composite sketch. We get a little bit more of the audio that is released to the public. When this news broke, I
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know that it was pretty much a gamecher for everyone that was covering the case.
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What was it to you guys at the time? I because there was a lot of feelings and mixed emotions about that press
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conference. Some of the things that Doug Carter said about the shack and about maybe the killer is is sitting here in
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this room today. He's addressing the killer directly now directly to the killer. You never thought that we would
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change directions in our investigation, but we have. We know that you want to know what we know. And then also the
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behind the scenes with the meeting with the families just 15 minutes prior to this press conference where they're
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going to get new information dropped onto their heads and shoulders as well and they're a bit blindsided. How did
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what was your reaction at the time? Go back in time and tell us what was your reaction, your feelings and your
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observations about the New Direction. So, the New Direction conference happened, I think, prior to Kevin and I
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even knowing each other, but I do remember it because again, like me and my mom were following this case just
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from from New York. And I remember talking to her and I was like, "Okay, either they're about to arrest somebody
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or perhaps more likely they don't have anything cuz it just seemed kind of like a shot in the dark to me." And and I
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think that ended up being the case what we found out behind the scenes. I think it was a calculated shot in the dark,
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but at that point they didn't really they I mean they were just trying to basically they got a profile saying,
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"Hey, if you confront the killer, he might make a mistake and trip himself up." So that was what they were trying
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to do. Do you remember it, Kevin? >> Yeah, I remember it. My reaction was much the same. Uh I also remember that
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people were speculating a lot about why did Carter mention the shack? Is that some sort of code? Were the girls killed
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in a shack? And so that was one of the questions we asked Carter and essentially he was just riffing.
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>> He was riffing and then the the wildest thing was afterwards Holman went up to
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him and was like, "What is the shack?" Like why why did you mention like what what are you talking about? Although I
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think he said it in a slightly more profane way, but um I I think he was just trying to I think he was they were
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thinking maybe the guy's religious or maybe he has religious family members and they're just trying to appeal to
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that. But I think everyone was reading so much into it and sort of treating it like it's like the Da Vinci Code or
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something where we can all figure it out. But I think it was really just for an audience of one which was supposed to
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be the killer. And that was based again on that they got some profilers to tell them, okay, we think this is the kind of
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guy who did this. And I think that profile ended up being somewhat accurate actually to Richard Allen. But but they
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were like, "Go out there, confront him, and see if he maybe does anything." So, I think a lot of it was more about
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trying to get his goat than anything else. >> Yeah. And there was contention behind
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the scenes, not just with the family, but amongst law enforcement because the idea was, let's have one of our guys go
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up there just just one guy be talking to the killer one on one. That man they selected to do that was Doug Carter. And
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the then sheriff of Carroll County told Blesenby says, "No, it's not right. I'm the elected sheriff. It's our case. I
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should be up there, too." And the two men got into quite a heated argument in the minutes leading up to that press
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conference. >> And that is a strategy that goes back many years, decades. In fact, we saw the
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FBI roll out a similar strategy in the Atlanta child killings case. We know that they did the exact same thing out
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in Witchah with BTK with Ken Len Lenwear who was the uh officer out there that they behind the scenes they they were
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saying we need a super cop. We need we need to put forward a face and a body that is the super cop that that our
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killer will not he needs to be challenged and he's of the type that needs to be challenged and therefore we
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we don't know his face and we don't know his name. However, on our side, we're going to put a face and name to a worthy
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adversary of this unknown killer and challenge them publicly because we know that it's about power and control. So,
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we're going to start to take some of that power and control away by presenting you with somebody that we
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don't think that you can defeat. And they certainly did that with Doug Carter. They certainly picked the right
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person. But as you said, there was some squabbbling behind closed doors of is this the right tactic? Some words were
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exchanged and probably some feelings were hurt. >> Oh yes, I imagine so. And you know, and
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I can understand where all the sides were coming from behind the scenes, but it it definitely and ultimately, I mean,
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Allan did not take the bait, so it wasn't something that ended up being fruitful, but knowing what I know now
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about where they were with the investigation, I understand why they did it and why they felt like they needed to
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take that risk at that point. >> Yeah. My thoughts on that would be if there was a continuation of killings
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that maybe you could then challenge this killer. But I think because there wasn't a continuation
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that we knew of that maybe the approach would be to try to reach some kind of humanity in this individual if there's
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any left to try to get them to come out of the woods. >> Yeah. Well well said. I think there was
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also a bit of an idea of maybe he's got relatives who are ready to come forward or maybe there's someone who knows
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something that we can kind of push a little bit here. And again, that didn't work either.
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>> Yeah. and the thought that they were and usually, you know, this isn't just this
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investigation, but oftent times the investigators are pretty well convinced that the killer has told somebody or
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somebody close to them has witnessed, overheard something or has suspicions, but they've not there for one reason or
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another, they don't feel comfortable coming forward with that information. It only takes one tip. We know that in
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every situation. And they I think you're right. They were trying to not necessarily draw out the killer with
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this tactic solely, but also maybe draw out somebody that knows the killer has a
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suspicion about somebody that they maybe even love and care about. But then back
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to the killer, you could you could make him squirm, make him do some something out of desperation because that, and
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you're right, that that press conference took place before you guys started your
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podcast, but it was well enough into the investigation and years into the investigation that one could come to the
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conclusion that, oh, they haven't caught me yet because they don't have anything.
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They haven't caught me yet because I've not given them anything. their investigation is is is no good. And and
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soon they will give up. And part of that is just reminding the killer, we're not
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giving up. We're we've we've not cut back on the hours. We've not cut back on on the people power here. We're putting
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in the time and we're going to get you. We will not rest until until we do. But sadly, as you said, that nobody comes
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forward with that. And it doesn't even appear that I hope it made Richard Allen squirm like hell. I hope it made him
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nervous as hell with many sleepless nights to just know that they one day they're going to come a knocking on his
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door. >> Yeah, I hope it did too. >> I mean, sadly, I don't think it did, though, because
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they're they're coming out again in this almost taunting, challenging manner, but
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then they release a sketch that, you know, the first sketch looks like Richard Allen, second sketch does not.
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So if if I was Richard Allen at that moment, I'd go, they got nothing and they're even further away from me than
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they're claiming. >> Yeah, I do agree that the first sketch looks a lot like him to me and that
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second one doesn't. >> Interesting to wonder, too, did he have any thought at any time of getting rid
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of that gun? I mean, we know that he kept it obviously and that worked to the advantage of getting justice for the
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girls, but one person absolutely did know that he was at the trails that day, the day that the girls were killed. And
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in fact, he lied to that woman and and or conveniently left out the part where he walked onto the bridge, which later
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he tells that to police and Kathy's left scratching her head saying, "Well, you never told me about that part." Had he
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at some point got rid of that gun, that might have been a telltale sign to her that maybe my husband, who was at
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the trails that day, wasn't doing what he said, and I shouldn't believe everything I've I've come to believe
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about what he's told me. >> Right. She'd have to pull her head out of the sand. I I think like for me
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though, I don't know if he knew that he lost a cartridge that day. It's It's not
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really clear to us. It's It's possible to me that he didn't realize that because he was drinking that day and
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maybe loses track. I'm speculating here. >> Right. But if he if he wrecked the gun
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twice, which I believe in one of the confessions he talks about at the top of the hill and then obviously he would
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have done so at the bottom of the hill as well. Did he collect the bullet at the top of the hill? And again, like you
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said, because he was drinking, not collect it at the bottom of the hill. >> I think some have also said like you can
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rack a gun once and then if you rack it twice, then it ejects. I don't understand guns at all.
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>> Well, because there's no bullet loaded in the in the chamber. So when you rack
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it the first time, that's what kicks the bullet into the chamber. So then if he would were to rack it again, then it's
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going to expend it out the side. And I think you're absolutely right, Anya. I don't think he had any clue that that he
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had did that. It may have happened on accident or in the heat of the moment, he didn't realize that he had done it
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twice. But and and the reason why we we can speculate that it may have happened simply on accident was something that
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the law enforcement officers at the murder scene were talking about behind closed doors. Uh they were checking to
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make sure that it wasn't one of their guns that had left the bullet there. And some investigators
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had told and explained to you guys that often times we'll remove our firearm when we have to go into these crime
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scenes, especially ones where there's hills and and rough terrain involved because you can accidentally expend a
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bullet. >> Yeah. And it's it's uncive investigators. It's just hard to be like kind of crouching and doing all this
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different stuff when you've got a gun on. So, I think they a lot of them just didn't even bring one that day. And then
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they were checking around, okay, could could anyone else have dropped this? And >> the answer was no one else had a gun
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like that. So, it was like, okay, this can't be us. This has got to be the killer.
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>> Talk about Richard Allen's phone a little bit that he had with him on that day in 2017. Because so much of this
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story is Liberty German's phone, how it led us to the suspect, visuals of the suspect being found at the murder scene,
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but his phone is a large part of this story as well. He says he's on his phone that day, but we know that they did a a
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data dump and and don't seem to have been able to track his phone in the area that day, but when they search his home,
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obviously they're looking for electronic devices. They don't find that phone. We
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don't we to this day we have no clue what happened to that phone. >> Yes. It's very unusual and we know
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exactly what phone he had in 2017 because in the initial lead that he called in on himself, he gives Dan
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Dulan, a Department of Natural Resources officer, his IME number, which is specific to a device. So, we're able to
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pinpoint, okay, that's the exact phone he had. And as you mentioned, he claims he's on his phone during his hike on the
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trails. He claims he's looking at his stock ticker and when they look at the data from the towers, they don't see it
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there. So, that's one issue. But then the other issue is that some people, you know, they trade in their phones and
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then other people, they kind of hoard all their old phones in like a bag in their office or something. Richard Allen
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is the latter kind of person. He is the kind of person who's got all of his old phones in one place and he just has
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them. The one phone that is missing from that collection that he has in his house
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when police search it is the phone that he had in 2017 with that specific IME number. So it raises some questions. Why
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get rid of that phone and none of the others? >> And it doesn't register in their data
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dump. Correct. So it it's there's yeah that that his phone is is a very weird mystery to me on this this
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whole front. >> I have a two-part question. >> Hit him hit him hard, Captain. >> Do it.
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>> Do it. >> Hit hit me right in the face. So this is actually for all three of you. For
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people that are on the fence on whether or not Richard Allen is responsible for this crime or solely responsible for
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this crime, is there a piece of evidence that you think they're overlooking? And
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is there a piece of evidence or maybe speculation out there that makes you feel like they're somewhat justified for
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questioning this uh result in the trial? I I think one of the challenges in this
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case for people is there's not one single piece of evidence you can point to and say this alone proves it. You
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know, there's no like DNA at the crime scene or anything of that nature. It's a lot of things that just add up and
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gradually build a wall around him and box him in. >> Yeah. It's it's just not a sexy case in
00:16:21
the sense that normally you can say okay there was DNA found on the body and the
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killer cut himself and so his blood is there and it's like okay that you can immediately understand what happened
00:16:31
there. This is the case where it's not one big boulder. It is a bunch of small pebbles adding up to a greater weight.
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To me, the pebble that's most important to me, I guess, or I should say that I think is kind of conclusive and cinched
00:16:46
it for a lot of people is Richard Allen confesses. And in one of his, well, he confesses like 61 times,
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but the one of the confessions that was very descriptive and much more in-depth than the others, he talks about how
00:17:03
there was a van that came by that day as he was abducting the girls and that he saw this van and he panicked and he
00:17:10
forced them across the creek and killed them. This van was not in the discovery.
00:17:15
This van, there was nothing about this van in anything that he could have seen. This van was not something that was
00:17:21
being talked about. This van was driven by a man named Brad Weber who lived at the end of this access road kind of
00:17:29
trail thing that went past the bridge and he would be the only people who had any reason to be on that were people who
00:17:37
who lived there and it was just very sparsely populated. though investigators were able to actually go back and figure
00:17:44
out based on texts that Brad Weber would have been driving his van that day. And
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we know that because he's texting people, oh, I'm going to bring this to you and it requires a hitch to move it
00:17:54
and his van is the only thing that has that hitch. They're also able to find his his work records. He clocks out at
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early a little bit early that day and the time he clocked out would have taken him under the bridge and in that area at
00:18:10
the exact time they're being abducted. So it all aligns. How on earth does Richard Allen know about a van being
00:18:18
there at a specific time when even the police didn't know about that until he said something? I also find persuasive
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after the murders, the police talked to everybody who was out on the trails that
00:18:32
day and they know about everybody who was there and when they were there and what they saw. The only person they're
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not able to identify is bridge guy, but they they'll have like a group of witnesses say, "Oh, around this time we
00:18:46
saw a bridge guy going towards the bridge." Then Richard Allen uh appears and he says, "Oh, those witnesses who
00:18:55
said they saw bridge guy, I saw them and I was dressed just as bridge guy was dressed." And there's actually two
00:19:02
groups of witnesses or there rather there's two witnesses important who have these bridge guy sightings. And so then
00:19:10
you'd have to imagine if Richard Allen is innocent, then you need to have another person out there dressed just
00:19:18
like Bridge Guy that no one else saw. >> And in addition to that, Richard Allen's
00:19:23
just unfortunate enough to have a firearm that matches a spent an unspent cartridge at the scene. And he confesses
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in a way that has details only the killer would know. So it's like everything. >> And he also sounds just like Bridge Guy.
00:19:36
He also sounds exactly like Bridge Guy and just happened to have the day off of CVS and be at the trails that day and
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you know to express a lot of remorse and saying, "Oh, I'm I killed those girls. Do you still love me?" To his wife and
00:19:49
mother. So, it's just there's too much that adds up. I understand why people have skepticism, though. I want to say
00:19:55
that. I really do because I think a lot of the coverage of this case at trial specifically was flawed. uh flawed at
00:20:05
best and actually misleading at worst. So when people are kind of basing their assumptions off of what they're hearing,
00:20:12
a lot of what they heard is nonsense. And so I don't blame those people for coming to what I think is a wrong
00:20:19
conclusion. I just think they're they have bad information. And when people I see dive into it and they really get
00:20:25
immersed in it, I see them saying, "Oh, wait. Now I get it." So it's interesting. Like I think people who
00:20:31
have a little bit of information tend to be very skeptical and I think people who
00:20:35
really dive into it at the end of the day most people who are acting in good faith I think they say oh I think I
00:20:40
understand this better now. So it's just it's it's not really people's fault in a
00:20:45
way >> and I'll echo what Anya and Kevin laid out for us here because I I think that
00:20:50
it it is the totality of the evidence. And I know that wasn't your question there, Captain, but I think in this
00:20:56
case, and in a lot of cases, it gets really difficult to boil it down to one piece of evidence, but uh a couple of
00:21:04
things here. When when they're searching his home, he's saying it's he's repeatedly saying it's all over, which
00:21:12
is a strange thing for an innocent man to be saying in that moment. Now, now, you know, we might be picking at nits
00:21:20
with with that sort of speculation there, but let's take it a step further. Part of it's his car. When he's denying
00:21:27
any involvement, before he's locked up and starts con confessing, when he denies any involvement, his car seems to
00:21:34
be parked right where the witness where the a witness comes forward and says, you know, I think I saw bridge guy
00:21:40
walking to his car. I think I saw the suspect walking to where he may have been parked. And and so we learn that
00:21:49
about Richard Allen and his vehicle before he confesses. This is during the part where he's still denying any
00:21:57
involvement. The part about the van when he when he is confessing once he's locked up that the piece about that van
00:22:04
is exactly right. there there's only the only way for him to know that and you can call you can call his confessions
00:22:12
crazy if you want but in that confession he gets that detail that nobody else knows 100% correct and then I also think
00:22:22
that people are a little too quick to dismiss the ballistics testing on the bullet they don't the general public
00:22:29
does not have the experience that we have here in the garage or that Anya and Kevin have with the murder sheet. We are
00:22:38
thankfully tasked with examining cases every single week. You guys have been doing it for 5 years. We've been doing
00:22:46
it for for well over nine years now. And we've reviewed >> we've reviewed a lot of cases. We've
00:22:53
reviewed a lot of cases where there's there's different there's different gun work and ballistic work that is
00:23:00
conducted in these cases. And I don't think that the general public realizes more than often the the testing reveals
00:23:08
that it's either not a match or it's inconclusive. It's it's almost I wouldn't say that it's exactly oneird,
00:23:16
but we've reviewed a lot of cases and it feels very much onethird of the time it
00:23:20
comes back as a match. So to to dismiss that or be so quick to dismiss that, I think that that that that is is
00:23:30
something that is easily overlooked by the general public. >> That's extremely well said in my
00:23:36
opinion. I think I think you just summed it up really well because it's like it's
00:23:40
frustrating to see people get it wrong, but we just try to remember that people,
00:23:46
you know, we all hear what we hear and sometimes it's easy to just fall into assumptions based on limited
00:23:51
information. And that's just a very human thing to do. And we just hope that this case is a good almost like lesson
00:23:58
for everybody, ourselves included, that it's it's dangerous to just kind of make
00:24:03
assumptions. But I I agree with you. I found the cartridge extremely compelling and I thought the state's expert on that
00:24:09
Melissa Oberg was extremely good on the stand and I think uh you know one thing that people may not realize is that she
00:24:17
did the testing and saw that there was it was consistent with with the with a bullet with a cartridge exe ejected from
00:24:25
his gun. But her supervisor also did the identical test without knowing what her
00:24:31
results were and he got the same conclusion. So, it wasn't like they were just slapping something together. I
00:24:37
mean, these are pretty highly trained experts. >> Yeah. I think I differ from a lot of
00:24:41
people in this case in the sense of, okay, now we have a verdict. And so, I do think there's this group of people
00:24:50
that are then questioning things. But I think I think it's also in the similar manner of which we dove into the case
00:25:00
initially was cuz you want justice for these girls. And I think double-checking the work of justice for this girls is is
00:25:07
something I feel like sometimes we're so quick to go, well, here's the answers. That's the answers. There's no other
00:25:16
possibilities. You're stupid if you think so. And I think a lot of these individuals that
00:25:21
are just questioning things are still doing so with the the lens of justice for these two girls.
00:25:28
>> I think for some of them it's more of their own egos, though. I think I think
00:25:32
cuz some of them are the same people that continue to attack the girls families and it's like if you care so
00:25:38
much about the girls, why are you doing that? You know, it's like leave the families alone at least. But I think
00:25:44
some people got really convinced that their person of interest was going to be it and then they just kind of they've
00:25:49
gone off on that. And it's like I think if they step back and sort of really thought about it, they might they might
00:25:55
go about things in a different way. Although some of them are just kind of nuts, I think.
00:26:00
>> Yeah. And I I think the other thing uh about this is like you said some of it is ego that
00:26:07
you had a thought and and so that thought is right and when it's proven wrong that you just stick to that that
00:26:17
initial thought. But I think a lot of these other individuals that haven't moved on, that haven't put
00:26:25
a period in their chapter of okay, we we covered this case uh and now it's time to move on. I think some of that is this
00:26:37
is the biggest thing that has happened to them and whether they have hundreds of thousands of listeners or viewers.
00:26:46
some of these people to have a hundred listeners or viewers, it's the biggest thing that
00:26:54
has happened in their life. Um, and I and I feel sad for them because I could understand getting some attention in
00:27:02
this world where it's hard to get attention in this world. So to get any kind of attention, whether that's good
00:27:10
attention or bad attention, that I feel bad for these individuals that just can't seem to move on and just want to
00:27:18
keep and I don't even know if they believe everything that they're saying because if they had a definitive
00:27:26
viewpoint and not a everchanging viewpoint, then they would lose the attention. So, I think some of these
00:27:35
people are just going, "Well, here's new speculation. I'm going to go down that rabbit hole and it'll just keep this
00:27:40
attention coming on onto me." And I and I feel sad for them that they they can't
00:27:46
move on. >> I I feel sad for them, too. I think that's very well said. And I'll go even
00:27:52
so far as to say that when I consume some of the content these people put out, I can often tell that these are
00:28:03
people who have some good qualities. They have some intelligence, maybe some wit. And I I find myself wishing they
00:28:14
would find a way to make more constructive use of their gifts. And also when you look at these people, a
00:28:24
lot of them have frankly had lives of disappointment >> and a lot of them have lost quite a bit
00:28:31
because of their obsession with this case. There's people who've lost marriages, jobs, their homes over their
00:28:40
obsession with this case. And it is just sad. It is just very sad. >> It makes me sad. I I feel like true
00:28:47
crime should never be something that hurts your life. And if it's ever getting to that point, then people need
00:28:52
to step back and sort themselves out before they continue with because it deli is a good example. We've talked
00:29:00
about how some of the bad actors have hurt the families or people in the case and they've done things that are not
00:29:08
okay, but they've often really just ended up hurting themselves. And it it's genuinely it's it's sad. You don't want
00:29:14
to see people go down that road. [Music] If you're still overpaying for wireless,
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00:30:40
on unlimited plan. Taxes and fees extra. See Mint Mobile for details. [Music] Let's talk about the trial a little bit
00:30:59
and talk about the the prosecutor, the defense team. I was a little surprised. I wasn't completely blindsided by it,
00:31:09
but I was a little surprised because with the defense team, one attorney in particular, Rosie, I was I was somewhat
00:31:18
mildly familiar, let's say, with his career in some cases that he had worked over the years. And I I thought he had
00:31:25
done a good job in those cases. But I I ultimately my we'll get in my feelings here a little bit. I thought a lot of
00:31:32
what the defense did and how they conducted their defense of Richard Allen was a bit slimeball at times.
00:31:40
>> Oh, yeah. I I think they're complete slime balls. I'll just be totally blunt.
00:31:44
I think that's a good word for it. I We were shocked. We We had done some pretty
00:31:49
in-depth profiles on both Rosie, uh, Brad Rosie, who was the lead counsel, and Andrew Baldwin, who was working with
00:31:57
him. And we we expected to be dazzled. We expected that they were going to do a really good job. We'd heard very good
00:32:05
things. So, we had every expectation that these are going to be some really good attorneys who are going to do some
00:32:10
really good attorneying. And that's not what happened. >> And a lot of it was wasn't subtle stuff.
00:32:18
One of the moments that stands out in my mind is from even before the trial began, which was during the process of
00:32:24
jury selection. This is an opportunity for the attorneys to ask questions of the prospective jurors and generally
00:32:33
they want to come across as seeming like a nice regular guy. And one woman is in
00:32:39
the jury box and Rosie looks at her and says, "So, is it true that you have an intellectual disability?"
00:32:47
And the room falls silent and the woman just says, "No." And that really alienated a lot of people.
00:32:56
>> He also came in with his like little poster board and he was like, "All right, guys. I'm gonna dumb this down
00:33:01
for you." And you can just tell the jury, the prospective jurors were just like, "What the heck? He's just
00:33:08
arrogant." You know, and so we can talk all day about them. They they they did a
00:33:13
they did a I mean there's there's what we see in the movies when it comes to defense attorneys and and that tends to
00:33:20
be very flashy and over the top and then there's what is actually being a good defense attorney and oftentimes that's a
00:33:26
little bit quieter. It might mean making a really good deal or making a lot of objections to ensure things are
00:33:34
preserved for the record. And it it's usually not crafting a narrative of the case that's going to sell in the media
00:33:41
based on the fact that these guys were literally filming themselves work seemingly in anticipation of being part
00:33:47
of a documentary series. I just I don't feel like their hearts were in the right
00:33:52
place, I guess, is is what I view from from this because it's about your client. It's not about your own egos or
00:34:01
being part of a docky series or portraying yourself as some sort of hero attorney Attakus Finch style. It's just
00:34:08
like it just they seem to be in it to arandise themselves. >> Well, and to stay on that topic a little
00:34:13
bit, they recently put out key issues that Allen's attorneys are focusing on for the appeal. Do you have any thoughts
00:34:24
on on that article that came out? Yeah, let's get to that. But before we get into that, let's not brush aside the
00:34:31
idea that they were essentially trying to blame the murders on other folks. That gets tossed out. Doesn't get
00:34:41
allowed to be in court. And to the captain's point, exactly what he's saying now. They're they're like, "Oh,
00:34:48
well, you didn't believe that? Well, how about this?" you know, and they're just
00:34:51
shifting gears to what what appears to me that they're pointing the finger in a different direction now.
00:34:59
>> Yeah. You know, this Odinism theory, this theory that the girls were murdered
00:35:03
by a cult of white supremacists in a sacrifice in the woods, it was very heavy on speculation and very light on
00:35:11
actual facts. And in Indiana at least, you have to have some evidence to bring in a third party suspect in court. And
00:35:19
the judge rightfully dismissed that because >> there's a reason for that because it
00:35:23
wouldn't be fair if I was accused of a terrible crime if I could go into court and say, "Oh, it wasn't me. It was the
00:35:31
captain." And >> goddamn right it was. >> You can't just drag someone in without
00:35:39
any evidence because then you're violating that person's rights. And there was a three-day hearing where the
00:35:46
defense had an opportunity to present evidence. Here's why we think it was these other people and they weren't able
00:35:53
to produce anything. In fact, their investigators had to admit that they could not even come up with any evidence
00:36:01
that their main suspect was even in Deli at the time of the murders. So if you came and place your suspect in the the
00:36:10
town where the murders happened, how can you claim that you have good enough evidence to accuse him publicly in a
00:36:16
trial? >> But it but it fit their modus operandi because they were just ma writing these
00:36:21
uh legal filings that were really more like press releases. Like normally legal filings are super dry and they go to the
00:36:29
judge and you're trying to convince the judge to do what you want. They seem to be writing for the media and for the
00:36:35
public and they they were, you know, I mean, it was a pretty open secret that they were leaking like crazy and they
00:36:42
were trying to cultivate media. They were trying to cultivate YouTubers. And I think the the idea was to try to taint
00:36:49
a jury pool in order to basically put out their side so that no one would vote to convict. And I I think they convinced
00:36:56
themselves that that was going to work. But I mean, these guys just I mean, they
00:37:00
they didn't do very well. They weren't good. Uh the the prosecution team, they were very prepared. They were organized.
00:37:09
They were methodically building their case. It felt like the defense was almost like ad libbing or like, you
00:37:15
know, doing some kind of like riff solo. Like it it just didn't it didn't work. Well, I questioned these guys'
00:37:22
intelligence because at first when they when they spoke, I thought, okay, well, the state is going to be in for a fight
00:37:29
here, but their main suspect that they keep pushing, like you said, we can't even place him in deli at the time of
00:37:36
the crimes. And I've heard that there's actually definitive evidence that puts him at work during the time of the
00:37:44
crimes. But if you dive into the suspect, which I won't even uh entertain the audience with giving out his name,
00:37:53
uh his online social presence is the second coming of Buffalo Bill. And so I think there are some individuals out
00:38:02
there that when you see I don't know if you ever saw some of the video footage that was put out on Richard Allen of him
00:38:10
playing pool at a bar, he just looks like this normal guy. He doesn't look like this psychotic serial killer. And
00:38:19
when you watch this footage of this suspect, he, like I said, he comes off uh very crazy. Um, and I think some of
00:38:29
the individuals that are on the fence or or or opposed to Richard Allen being Bridge guy, they see this uh this
00:38:38
footage and they can't unsee it. >> And when you see somebody, I mean, and I think he's doing this on
00:38:47
purpose. Again, I think he's probably somewhat of a sick individual, but here's another person involved in the
00:38:55
case that is enjoying uh attention and speculation that he might be the real killer.
00:39:02
>> Yeah, I think that's well said. And it's like people, I think, are comforted by
00:39:05
the idea that the killers amongst us have to be kind of walking red flags because then you could just avoid the
00:39:14
creeps. If someone's creepy, hey, they might be a bad person. Let me get away from them. When you're dealing with
00:39:20
somebody like Richard Allen where it's more below the surface, that's scary because how would you ever know? And we
00:39:26
uncovered things that, you know, Richard Allen is a pretty creepy dude himself. Yeah.
00:39:30
>> But he's a lot more subtle about it. And his social media presence isn't, as you
00:39:35
said, you know, like a walking nightmare. So, you know, you can understand why people are creeped out by
00:39:40
this guy, but people just need to remember like Ted Bundy was a law student, you know, and he seemed like a
00:39:45
nice guy to a lot of people, but he was not a nice guy, and people can wear masks. Page 405
00:39:53
from Shadow of the Bridge reads, "After hearing the jury convict her husband of the murders, Kathy Allen
00:40:01
had walked out of the courthouse and passed a line of television cameras." And it goes on to say that she looks at
00:40:11
members of the media and says, "This isn't over. Now, we know that you guys were there. You're battle tested and
00:40:18
battle true. You went to the trial. You stood in line. You sacrificed so that you could cover the trial for everybody.
00:40:27
Put our wonderful listeners into your shoes and tell them about what was the trial experience like for you guys and
00:40:38
what was it like in the moment when the verdict was finally read. >> It was an it was a battle. It was uh we
00:40:44
did not get media passes because we're podcasters and um the judge was like nope. So, and honestly, even the people
00:40:53
who did get media passes that a lot of them still had to wait in line certain days. It was a very small courtroom,
00:40:59
limited amount of seats. I think there were usually about like 25 seats. Kind of varied dayto-day.
00:41:04
>> We should say when we talk about waiting in line, it it's not like waiting in
00:41:08
line to get something at the grocery store. You had to get in line in the early days of the trial. You'd have to
00:41:14
get in line like at 1:00 a.m. for a trial that would begin at 9:00 a.m. And then as the trial progressed, you'd have
00:41:23
to get in line earlier and earlier. And by the end, by the when the trial would finish for one day, there would already
00:41:31
be a line forming for the next day. And also, so the judge decreed that you can't get out of your seat in the day
00:41:39
and then get your seat back. Once you get out of your seat, you forfeit it. So you can't go and take a restroom break.
00:41:45
So that meant we couldn't eat anything or drink anything for the morning or really for the afternoon session either.
00:41:52
So you're very dehydrated and hungry and you're also sleepd deprived because you
00:41:57
got in line so early. It's also very cold out. And there's also kind of a weird threat of violence because most of
00:42:04
the people in line were super nice and people got along pretty well, at least in the beginning. But we've been
00:42:10
threatened before. We've gotten threats from people. And so there's always that worry in the back of your head. Are they
00:42:14
going to show show up and start shooting or try to beat us up or something? So there's that. Also, getting in getting a
00:42:22
seat in the morning does not guarantee a seat in the afternoon. So you have to get back in line in the lobby uh after
00:42:29
the morning session in order to get another seat. So and there's constant fighting and oh this person cut me in
00:42:36
line and all this stuff. There's like a lot of drama eventually. The judge seems
00:42:40
to keep changing the rules cuz in the beginning if you got a seat in the morning that was your seat in the
00:42:44
afternoon but then she's like no everyone vacate the courtroom and go down no first line up in the hallway.
00:42:48
No, now go downstairs. So, you sort of feel like you're playing musical chairs, except like there's no music and it's
00:42:55
it's just bad vibes all around. I guess it was uh it was really insane. But we had a lot of help. I mean, that was the
00:43:02
only way we got through this was getting help from people who sat in line for us
00:43:06
because by we we really didn't want to do that. We were like, we want to stand in line ourselves. We don't want to be
00:43:12
like hiring people or doing anything, but people volunteered. And I think that saved us cuz we were
00:43:18
starting to like visually hallucinate by the end. By the end of when we were staying up all night doing this, it was
00:43:24
it was getting bad. >> Well, in fairness to the judge's decision, uh podcasters are the lowest
00:43:30
form of content creators. >> I I having been through this, I can't like be that mad about it because I'm
00:43:38
like now we're self-hating podcasters. Well, and and talk about the the verdict. When the verdict was finally
00:43:44
read and being present for that, what was the reaction in the courtroom and around the courtroom?
00:43:52
>> We had these wonderful, lovely people who let us kind of hang out. They had this house that they were sort of
00:43:58
renovating and doing construction around, but it was a nice place to go to kind of just sit down and, you know,
00:44:04
warm up and have like a break once in a while. So, we were there and we got the news that a verdict had come in and I I
00:44:11
love that place because they had these wonderful cats and I would just play with the cats and they were like my
00:44:16
therapy cats throughout this whole thing. So, shout out to Stuart and Sheldon. But, so we get this tech, we
00:44:23
get, you know, like, hey, there's a verdict. And it had been a couple of days. So, I at that point was like,
00:44:28
maybe it is going to be a mistrial. I think Kevin was still hold kind of believed that it would be a conviction.
00:44:35
and we were convinced that it was going to be a conviction once the verdict came
00:44:39
in. >> We knew that after sitting through that trial and hearing all the evidence that
00:44:44
he would not be acquitted. So we knew it was either going to be a conviction or a
00:44:49
mistrial because of a hung jury. And so as soon as we found out there was a verdict, we we knew he's been convicted.
00:44:59
And then there was a gap of I think an hour or so after the time it was announced they had a verdict and before
00:45:05
the verdict was revealed. It was it was awkward because a number of people did not share our certainty that it
00:45:14
would be a conviction. And I remember we we talked to a reporter I think on television and they said what do you
00:45:20
think is going to happen? And and I said a conviction. And I think the reporter gasped and said really?
00:45:27
>> Yeah. And people afterwards were like, "Are you sure?" Like, "I mean, I think
00:45:30
that might this might be an acquitt." And we're like, "Nope, we're definitely right." Like, we're just being obnoxious
00:45:34
about it because we've we have no social skills because we've gone totally feral
00:45:38
during this trial. And >> you've listened to the podcast. >> You know how we are. You know how we
00:45:43
are. So, we're just like, "No, no, no. We're it's definitely he's going to prison." And and people were just
00:45:47
shocked. And one thing I remember, we were like kind of power walked over to the court cuz it's, you know, we were
00:45:51
pretty nearby. And there was this one really nice lady we met who was covering it herself. She's walking by. She's
00:45:58
like, "Hey guys." And we're like, "There's a verdict." And she's like, "What?" Like, she just starts running.
00:46:02
And there's like kind of almost a panic outside because everyone's trying to fight to get in. We at that point made
00:46:07
the executive decision. We don't care about getting in. Like, one of the reasons we kept fighting to get in was
00:46:13
because there were people going and like lying about what was going on inside. Like they would go and they'd cover it
00:46:19
and it would have no bearing on reality. So, we fought to get in to counteract that
00:46:25
>> during the trial. during the trial, but we were like, there's no point in fighting to get in now because no one's
00:46:29
going to be able to lie about a verdict. So, we just didn't really care anymore.
00:46:32
So, we hang out outside on the sidewalk. There's all this weirdness going on. This one lady's like singing hymns. It's
00:46:39
just all very extra, but there's like, you know, there's like a big anticipation. And then finally, people
00:46:46
start walking out of the courthouse. I think I kind of I don't know if you remember this, Kevin. I remember someone
00:46:52
yelling guilty on all counts. a cheer went up in the crowd. It seemed like the crowd was mostly pretty happy about
00:46:59
that. And but you could see certain people who were big defense partisans, they they almost just looked shell
00:47:09
shocked. They looked struck like they had no idea that was going to happen. There was some shock, but there was a
00:47:16
lot of uh relief, I think. >> So, you guys are are dialed in much much more than most people involved. And
00:47:22
Kevin, especially with your background, you are a helping hand in allowing the rest of us to understand that. But where
00:47:30
does this stand? Where does Richard Allen's appeals stand? What's the next part of this process that hopefully
00:47:41
leads to him spending the rest of his days and serving out the 130ear sentence that he received? The next thing that's
00:47:47
going to happen is that his appellet attorneys are going to file a brief in which they are going to try to argue
00:47:55
that the trial was unfair. And I should stress two things. First of all, the appellet attorneys are different from
00:48:04
the attorneys who represented him in the trial. And the appellet attorneys have an excellent reputation. And so I
00:48:12
imagine they will do a great job with the brief. But I'd also like to add it's very very rare for a conviction to get
00:48:21
overturned and so I don't expect that to happen here. They've indicated that one
00:48:28
of the things they will be arguing is that it was unfair that the judge didn't allow third-party stuff to come in. That
00:48:37
it wasn't fair that the judge didn't let the attorneys go in and accuse other people of committing the crime even
00:48:44
though there was no evidence. those people committed the crime. And they've also indicated that they are going to
00:48:50
try to argue that the search of Richard Allen's home was improper and that the things seized during that search should
00:49:00
not have been admitted into evidence. And I think that's also a very weak claim that I don't expect to succeed.
00:49:07
>> And I apologize, Captain. I have to jump in because I got to get there. And this
00:49:11
is just purely your guys's opinion, but sorry, there's no nice way to put this. How freaking dumb does the defense team
00:49:20
look when they're pointing the finger at this Odinism idea when you had two suspects that you very likely could have
00:49:30
worked into the trial much easier than this Odinism theory? Yeah, we know that law enforcement went down that rabbit
00:49:38
hole. let's a rabbit hole, let's call it. But you have here you have Ron Logan who we know that they conducted a
00:49:46
search, right? They they filed for a search warrant and you also have Kean Klene who at times even admits
00:49:54
involvement and has a communication with one of the victims. It it's it's like if
00:49:59
you were going to pick somebody to point the finger at, why the hell did they go
00:50:03
in this direction? It just seems so blatantly dumb that the the obvious places to point the finger were right
00:50:11
there in front of you the whole time. >> Well, don't give them any ideas. >> Well, no. I mean, you're right. I mean,
00:50:18
he's It's too late. And and and those would have been better suspects in our opinion. We were shocked that they
00:50:25
didn't go those routes. We thought that those would be the natural fit for a third party. And if people are
00:50:32
wondering, I mean, they did try to get them in at the third party hearing, but they really, really did not put in a lot
00:50:38
of effort, especially with Logan. It was just sort of like, yeah, here's Ron Logan. Anyway, they didn't seem to care
00:50:44
much about that. So, I have some theories, and I just want to be clear. I'm speculating here because the defense
00:50:50
team would not talk to us for this book. So, we don't know what was in their heads. it. I think when you look at this
00:50:59
from like a storytelling perspective, the Odinist theory is the most exciting because it's a cult. It's a mysterious
00:51:08
group of evil white supremacists in the woods sacrificing people. It's almost out of a pulp novel. It's almost out of
00:51:15
some like weird detective magazine that you'd read in like the 1940s. So, I think the storytellers in them that
00:51:23
appealed to them because they knew it was going to get a lot of media interest, maybe even more so than this
00:51:30
kind of ornery property owner who was accused of uh domestic abuse and a sexual predator. It was just going to be
00:51:38
something that was really exciting for the press to cover. And I think they were I think they were obviously
00:51:43
motivated to try to get as much press attention and and stuff out of this as possible. I mean, they were literally
00:51:49
filming themselves work like like they wanted that attention. It's sort of like wanting a lot of attention is the root
00:51:56
of all evil in this case because whenever people are motivated by that versus like what's the right thing to
00:52:01
do, it just seems things go off the rails. So, that's one aspect of it. And then the other aspect of it is Richard
00:52:08
Allen starts confessing to the crime and I think they wanted to have a way to be
00:52:14
able to cast doubt on that and they encountered these guards in the prison who had like a Norse symbol on like a
00:52:24
patch on their uniform. And let's just be clear, you can be a Norse pagan and not be evil or racist or a white
00:52:33
supremacist. You can just you can just dig Odin and Thor and all that. I mean, it's it's a religion. There's an element
00:52:39
of it that is white supremacist and then there's another element that's not. It's
00:52:43
just, you know, it's just people with their religion, whatever. It's an it's a not a common religion, but it doesn't
00:52:49
mean that people who are Norse pagan are bad people. So, I think when they saw that, they thought, "Oh, we can tie this
00:52:57
all together into a big conspiracy and make it out that like everyone's in on it. the state of Indiana like you know
00:53:04
the police are covering up for the odinness. I think they just almost got ahead of themselves and they were
00:53:10
thinking more like YouTubers and I don't mean just like any YouTubers. I mean conspiracy YouTubers. They were thinking
00:53:17
more like that than lawyers because like a lot of the things they did just didn't
00:53:21
make any sense as far as benefiting their own client. Well, and also sometimes there's symbols that mean one
00:53:27
thing and then we can make assumptions of what their meaning is. But I also heard speculation early on when these
00:53:36
defense attorneys signed on. Like I said, when they first talked, I was like uh shocked by their intelligence at
00:53:43
first and thought the state's in for a fight. But I heard speculation from from jump that these individuals were more
00:53:53
interested in being involved in a documentary or writing a book. >> Yeah. I think they It's funny because I
00:54:01
think they seem to think that the prosecutor was like this small town attorney who was out of his league. And
00:54:08
I think in the end Rosie and Baldwin were small town attorneys, way out of their league. Like I think they really
00:54:14
overestimated their own abilities, right? >> And you don't want to have here's an
00:54:20
example. They both seem to get sort of emotionally invested in this case in a way that I think is inappropriate. It's
00:54:26
okay to care about your client and it's okay to really fight for them and to form a bond and that's all great, but
00:54:32
once you're just letting your emotions make all the decisions, that's not good. And and their emotions I think were more
00:54:39
selfish than they probably even want to realize. I think they came into this and
00:54:44
thought that this would be a case that would put them on the map and they wanted to make it as dramatic as
00:54:49
possible because that's what makes a that that's what gets you in a documentary. If you just defend your
00:54:54
client to the hilt and do it in a quiet and thoughtful way, that's not as sexy as we're the we're the uh lawyers who
00:55:03
solve the case and, you know, expose the cult that controls all of Indiana. that's a lot bigger and better as far as
00:55:10
a narrative is concerned. But I think they just they got they they were just goofy at some point. It was just
00:55:16
embarrassing to watch. I mean, I think they overestimated themselves, but I think they also really underestimated
00:55:22
the prosecutor. >> Want me to ask the last question? >> Hit him hard, Captain. >> Do it.
00:55:29
>> Well, this is not going to be a hard question. Um, >> take it easy on him, Captain.
00:55:35
>> Come on. Give us mercy. >> All right. Fall is in the air. The smell of bonfires.
00:55:42
Autumn leaves are falling. Right. We're in the Midwest. You could call me Kathleen Kelly. I'm walking down the
00:55:48
streets of New York with my pixie cut, my pencil skirt, and a my penny loafers, carrying my Pride and Prejudice book. I
00:55:58
love the fall. So, in that spirit, to end on a a fun note, pumpkin pie or pumpkin spice latte?
00:56:09
>> That is a good and hard question. I thought you were going easy on us. I got to say pumpkin pie.
00:56:16
>> I got Yeah, I don't drink uh tea or coffee or hot drinks. I don't believe in it. So, I go with pumpkin pie.
00:56:23
>> But I will say I do like a nice PSL once in a while. But my my pref preference is
00:56:28
chai latte. But but a pumpkin pie, that's just classic. >> Well, you're both wrong because the
00:56:34
answer is pumpkin beer. So there we go. Thanks for joining us here in the garage.
00:56:39
>> Thank you for having us. >> Thank you for having us. You guys are awesome. >> You guys are the tops. And as I said
00:56:43
earlier, you're our neighbors. So don't be a stranger. Let's do this again sometime. And congratulations on the
00:56:49
book. >> Thank you so much. That means a lot coming from you guys. And you guys have
00:56:52
to come visit us in Indiana at some point. [Music]