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foreign [Music] foreign garage wherever you are whatever you are doing thanks for listening I'm your host
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Nick and with me as always is a man who learned The Facts of Life from watching The Facts of Life he is the captain yeah
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you might had a crush on Blair or Tootie but my money was on Edna it's good to be
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seen and good to see you thanks for listening thanks for telling a friend [Music]
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everybody in the garage everybody out there in a wonderful listener land that is enough of the business everybody
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gather round grab a chair grab a beer let's talk some true crime record stereophonically as well as monorally
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[Music] foreign [Music] April 23rd 1974. the Ogden Standard Examiner page 1 headline read
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three murdered as burglars invade Ogden Record Shop Manhunt on the newspaper only cost the locals 10
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cents for the daily copy to read about the horrific murders it was not just the murders that
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terrified the city located at the foot of the Wasatch mountains it was a fact that the killers were
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still on the loose and their identities unknown to law enforcement and the community
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portions of Corey Peterson's article read police throughout Utah are searching for
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men who use guns in the killing of three persons after invading an Ogden Record Shop
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all were shot in the back of the head the chief of detectives in the Ogden Police Department
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said all of his men and all officers of the newly formed tactical Squad have been assigned to the case
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he called the crime A continuing one lasting several hours the gruesome Affair apparently started
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about 7 pm when two men broke into the Hi-Fi shop some of the victims were tied up and
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taken down stairs one of the victims was found almost completely nude police said robbery was the primary
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motive no motive for the shootings in the torture had been discovered the Utah Highway Patrol said police are
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looking for two vans one described as a yellow late model van and the other as a dark blue Chevrolet
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van the suspects are considered to be armed and extremely dangerous [Music] good
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foreign pm on Monday April 22nd 1974. police are responding to what was labeled at the
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time as an unknown trouble call they found a man in very bad shape in a parking lot behind the Hi-Fi shop
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located at 2323 Washington Boulevard in Ogden Utah the Hi-Fi shop was a successful store
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that sold expensive stereo equipment and Records the man in the parking lot was 43 year old Oren Walker
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Oren said he had been shot in the back of the head and tortured by two men who were robbing the store
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he said after the men left he had managed to crawl from out of the basement of the store making
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it all the way to the parking lot there were other victims inside likely all dead
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police searched the area in the store they found no signs of the two assailants cited by Oren but the police
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are going to find four more victims in the basement of the Hi-Fi shop regarding the call to police The Story
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Goes Like This captain that someone living nearby or working nearby saw Oren in the parking lot of the Hi-Fi shop and
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saw him to be in very bad shape they call it into the police department and that's why the cup the call went out as
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an unknown trouble call they're responding to something going on but they don't know what it is
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around this same time Oren's wife and son arrived on the scene really just seconds before or seconds after the
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police there are two rather conflicting stories here the one we just told you about was from the Ogden Standard
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Examiner April 23 1974 newspaper the next is from the crime classification manual a standard system for
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investigating and classifying violent crimes a book that is the result of a 10-year project by the FBI's National
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center for the analysis of violent crime there it says that around 10 30 PM police responded to a call from Oren's
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wife and one of his sons who went to the store when they became concerned that Oren and their other son this is Stanley
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Walker did not come home in this version which both are to be fair both versions
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are repeated in other Publications but these two happen to be the ones that I chose to list here and this version Oren
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Walker's son could hear disturbing noises coming from the basement so he either broke down the door or broke into
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the shop and found his father unconscious at the foot of the basement stairs how they were found is not really
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important what is important is that they were found and found relatively soon after the attacks this most definitely
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prevented further loss of life there were five victims total with at least four of them being found in the basement
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of the Hi-Fi shop two of the victims were dead when police arrived two more were clinging to life and Oren was in
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very bad shape as said the three living victims were immediately transferred to the nearest
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hospital now just to give a quick little reference here captain in 1974 about 65
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000 people lived in the greater Ogden area our five victims are Michelle Ansley Byron Courtney Nesbitt Carol Nesbitt
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Oren Walker and Stanley Walker Michelle and Stanley were the two that were already expired by the time the police
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arrived they were both shot in the back of the head and likely died instantly or
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very quickly Michelle was 18 years old she was planning on getting married in August of
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that same year she was newly employed at the shop she had only worked there for about a week or so
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Stanley was 20 years old and employed at the store as well I believe he was in more of a managerial
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role or at least in that type of role that evening he likely was in charge of closing the
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store that night the terrible and just really strange thing is and we've seen this in some
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other tragedies it's been reported that the two that were working that night Michelle and Stanley were actually
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filling in for some other employees right that we hear that a lot in cases but this is also scary too because even
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in a situation like when I used to work at a bank you're not so worried so much about the
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individual coming in and passing a note saying you know I want all your money it's it's the Takeover of the store so
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at some point this store this Hi-Fi store has been taken over by how many people we don't even know Carol Nesbitt
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was alive when responders were on the scene however she died shortly after arriving at the hospital
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Carol was shot in the back of the head and she was 52 years old at this time Byron Courtney Nesbitt was just 16 years
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old he was shot in the head as well in the back of the head he survived he was in a coma and was in the hospital for
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266 days before he could go home now I do want to point out before we move on that Byron and his father share
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the same first name so he went by Courtney his middle name Courtney Nesbitt so if you hear us call this
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young man Courtney that's why we are doing that Oren Walker was alive and in the hospital as said he was 43 years old
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at the time of the attack but he was alive and actually he was in considerably better shape than Courtney
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Nesbitt was he was able to tell police what went down that evening at the stereo shop
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so let's talk about that attack and what we know about the robbery that took place at the Hi-Fi shop
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Michelle and Stanley were working that night at the Hi-Fi shop the attack took place just before closing time
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which was 7 PM when two men entered the shop they were armed they tied Michelle and Stanley up and they forced them down
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to the basement right after this Courtney Nesbit is going to enter the Hi-Fi shop
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yes he goes in there and the story that has always been told is that he went in there to thank Stanley who was working
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at the store that day for allowing him to park his car in their parking lot that he had some things to do in the
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area he needed somewhere to park the vehicle it was really just a nice young man
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going in and saying hey thank you for allowing me to park there that day unfortunately
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he's unaware that the store is in the middle of a hold up during this time where the perps are inside and taking
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hostages So Courtney walks in he's very quickly controlled by the two men he's LED downstairs to join the other
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two captives then just before 9 pm Oren Stanley's father walks into the stereo store
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he went looking for his son as he knew the store had been closed now by this time for almost two hours
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when Oren walked in he said that he saw no one and he in fact he didn't hear anything either
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he walked around for a bit and then he got near the door that led to the basement when he was surprised by a man
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with a gun the man told him to move it downstairs when Stanley sees his father he shouted
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something you know this caused a bit of a commotion Stanley was kind of like upset you know he's upset that his
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father he's now seeing his father there and he's like why did you come here why did you come here
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this causes a commotion which led to one of the assailants to Fire Two Shots this was not shots at the victims this
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was two gunshots into the wall my guess here Captain it's one of those situations you see it in movies all the
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time you think you're losing control of the the hostages and you're firing what is likely warning shots to let them know
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hey I'm still the one that's calling the shots here I'm still the one that's in control everybody needs to settle down
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and let me do let me carry on with what we're going to do here but these shots happen while they're in the basement
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but do we have any witnesses that hear these shots like outside the no the high five we don't have anybody that has
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as far as I know the only Witnesses we ever have outside of the shop would be somebody nearby who said that they saw
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one of the victims in the in the parking lot which would have been Oren who called in
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to kind of clear that up again it doesn't really matter how they were found what what my thought is on that
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you know because a lot of times people are going and I say the same thing when I'm doing the research and say well why
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would you have two completely conflicting stories here well one this crime classification manual was written
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years after this crime took place the newspaper account came out the very next day and
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sometimes when they're reporting things that's they have limited information to report on they're not really filling in
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the blanks they're just reporting what they know at the time my guess here Captain is it's likely that all that
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stuff was happening everything that is mentioned in both reports actually happened
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and they probably all happened very close in time so what we have here now is we have another person entering the
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Hi-Fi shop and he's taken captive as well so this is roughly two hours after the
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supposedly close and now we have four people hostage correct and these warning shots if you want to call them that this
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triggers the hostages to panic and they start to plea with the captors Michelle and Courtney the two youngest they are
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begging for their lives Warren and Stanley are taking a different approach here they are trying to convince the men with
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the guns to just take the money take any merchandise that they want and telling them hey we won't be able to identify
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you we don't know who you are or at the very least we won't identify you right well Captain unfortunately things will
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get worse and I'm not really sure why these offenders would not just lock the door
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so no one else would enter while they're doing what they're doing my guess is they need to carry out this merchandise
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expensive stereo equipment there is a back door too so I can't say for certain but as we know there are five victims in
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this incredibly horrific case so now we have victim number five enter into the store this is Carol by now Captain as
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you said we have four persons already tied up and on the basement floor Carol Nesbitt Courtney's mother comes into the
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store and she just as fast as the others is taken hostage as well now with five people tied up
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one of the men instructed the other to get something from their vehicle outside the man returns with a bottle wrapped in
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a paper bag from this bottle the man pours a thick blue liquid into a plastic cup
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so one of the men explains that the liquid explaining this to the the people that are tied up that the liquid is
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vodka mixed with a German drug each of the hostages are told that they are going to have to drink this
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concoction they are told that the concoction will make them and make all of them fall
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asleep for a while and while they are sleeping the men will be loading up the merchandise and then they will take off
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when each of them wakes up they will be fine and eventually they would be found and freed
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yeah well damn I wish it could have been just that easy that simple but as we know captain from
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the long list of cases we've covered we know it's just so very rare that it is ever that easy or ever that simple right
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one of the men forced the hostages to consume the liquid however each victim when they are swallowing this drink
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they are coughing they are choking some of them so violently that they are spitting up the liquid from their mouths
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and noses now Oren would be one of the last of the five that was forced to consume the liquid
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so what he did he saw and he heard the reaction that the others were having to this what clearly
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I mean he's 43 years old he's he's an intelligent man he's probably believing hey this is not what they're telling me
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it is this is not vodka and a German drug concoction that's just going to make us take a nap right I mean this
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would be hard to kind of tell though because at first these individuals are taking the strength they're spitting it
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up and that is something that could possibly happen for somebody that is not used to drinking alcohol but they're
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they're screaming and right right but that's what I'm saying is like the initially maybe the first couple coughs
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or the first couple spit UPS you're going okay well that's just you know this some kind of weird you know I'm
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trying to put myself in in their shoes other these guys are drinking this thing there must be some kind of weird alcohol
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this is not going well but like you said as it becomes more violent and their reactions would become more violent you
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you have to then decide are you going to put this in your mouth at all this this
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could be poison right and the thing too is three of our victims are rather Young
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when you think about it 16 18 and 20 years old I mean they may have believed what these assailants are saying that
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hey it is this concoction in fact maybe maybe Carol and Oren believed it at first as well but you know Oren as said
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is 43 years old he knows that if the captain hands me a shot glass and says here Nick shoot this whiskey and I do it
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I go ah you know I'm screaming right that it's probably not what these guys are saying plus it's it's always
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difficult it's always damn near impossible to believe anybody that's pointing a gun at your face then hold on
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real quick I just want to back up a second please don't do any more sound effects that was it was horrible
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I tried to get away from the mic so it wouldn't be so so here's what we do okay unbeknownst to
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the perpetrators Oren is going to kind of fake consuming the liquid yeah right he's going to spit the liquid out he
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faked the coughing and the choking yeah the liquid was not having the effect on the
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hostages that was desired by the captors and then things turned very bad very quickly
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when they tried to get Courtney to drink the liquid a second time they poured so
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much that his mouth overflowed and the liquid came out and got on his face and ran down his his the front of his neck
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instantly burning the skin after this they began attempting to give each hostage a second dose the other
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hostage is a second dose of the liquid this had similar results as the first time
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remember we still have Oren who has been about able to fake drinking the liquid and
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seems to be getting away with it at this time again he hears the screams the choking
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and the coughing of the others and he continues to imitate these noises and reactions that he's seeing and hearing
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right but these captors you got to think about the captures like you said whatever effect they wanted this liquid
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to have or this poison to have on their hostages it's not working like planned and so now they have to make a decision
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what are they going to do well I think that's why you see okay now here's the time for the double dose the the second
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round of this terrible blue liquid and when then the second round doesn't work now they're saying all right let's let's
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tape the mouth shut of the now screaming victims you know these victims are are hostages are creating a lot of noise a
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lot of commotion we need to silence these people right so they're going to attempt to tape the mouths shut of each
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one of these individuals the other assailant at this time decides that he's going to untie
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Michelle and he takes her to another part of the basement where he rapes her now some Reports say repeatedly I don't
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think we know for certain either way there are some reports that say that this went on for about 20 minutes
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and even worse there are some reports that state Not only was the other assailant you know there's there's
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only one rapist in this two-man group but some reports state that the other assailant may have even watched The
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Assault on Michelle now again but you're standing by and letting it happen it always drives me nuts we we see this
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time and time again with a break into a house and a takeover of a house where that's the initial crime
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and then all these other Crimes start happening on top of that like like the individuals couldn't control themselves
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well Michelle after this attack uh is brought back to where the other hostages are and thrown down between two of the
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other victims by this point because of the thick blue liquid the victims most or all of them are vomiting one of the
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men is going to start executing are victims it sounds like Courtney and Carol were the first two that were shot
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Courtney saw his mother Carol gets shot and then he was shot and lost Consciousness Oren was shot but
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this was not a good shot okay there's again several reports the bullet either grazed
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him or missed him completely Stanley was shot next and it said that he looked at his father
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and told him I've been shot and then he went limp Michelle who begged and begged
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and pled for her life repeatedly was shot the men were gone from the basement for
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a while after shooting all of the victims one of them returned presumably to check
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on the victims ripped him off that Oren was not dead so the man attempted to strangle him
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with a cord or a wire then the same man returned later again returning for a second time
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this time with a flashlight and he's checking Oren for a pulse angered that Oren was still alive mind
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you he is still alive but this whole time he's been pretending to be dead pretending to be dead by staying still
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and giving off the appearance of not breathing while you are in pain from having been
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tortured your throat mouth lips face necks shoulders your skin is burning and you're forcing yourself to lay there
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still he has been choked with a wire to which Oren positioned his neck later we would learn that Oren said hey he
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positioned his neck and head and expanded his neck muscles so that he could still somehow get a
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little air while this guy was choking him now this robber turned captor turned torture rapist and killer
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someone just vicious and evil he's checking for a pulse on Oren and now he's angry that Oren is still
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alive he grabs either a pencil or a pen and violently jams it into Oren's ear to which he begins kicking it and
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stomping on it until the writing utensil I'm starting to lose my words here Oren can feel it
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bust through his ear canal and into his throat apparently this satisfied the attacker
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because he then left the basement area of the stereo store and did not return from there Captain we have to leave
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everyone with the two versions of how the victims were found and again my best guess is that they are both somewhat
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correct because both have Oren Walker's wife and other son arriving about the same time as
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police [Music] thank you all right we're back cheers mates cheers to you Captain cheers to everybody out
00:29:19
there listening now thankfully because we have some survivors unfortunately we have three dead victims
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but the two that remain alive we have Courtney who is in a coma but then we also have Oren who is able to tell
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police what went down and a general description of who is responsible and who they should be looking for
00:29:45
the Utah Highway Patrol said police were looking for the following two African-American males both in their
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early 20s one man is approximately five foot ten inches tall and the other man is thought to be six feet tall
00:30:02
they also have that vehicle description looking for two vans one described as a yellow late model van
00:30:09
and the other as a dark blue Chevrolet van and we have a general description of the
00:30:15
weapons used during the whole horrific ordeal as well one of the suspects is believed to have
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been carrying a 22 caliber automatic pistol and the other carrying a snub-nosed 25
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caliber automatic pistol we see 22 calibers and even more specifically a 22 pistol or handgun in a
00:30:38
lot of the cases that we've covered what we don't see is hardly ever really is a 25.
00:30:46
in fact I was trying to think of a case that we covered with a 25 and really none came to mind
00:30:52
now I do know of at least one Infamous case that the serial killer known as the Grim sleeper
00:30:59
Lonnie David Franklin Jr he shot all of his known victims all 12 of them with a 25 caliber gun
00:31:08
he was apprehended in 2010 he gets the name Captain because he took 14 years off between some of his
00:31:15
killings this was 1988 to 2002. [Music] actually while we're on it I know I'm getting a little off topic here but Nick
00:31:26
Broomfield made a really good documentary called Tales of the Grim sleeper he was the man that made
00:31:36
a lean life and death of a serial killer which was one that made my top 10 list way back when we did our must-see True
00:31:45
Crime episode which was episode 197 yep 197 and came out in April of 2017. so download the very free very awesome
00:31:58
Stitcher app to listen to all of our old episodes all of the old True Crime garage episodes
00:32:04
so again we have the description of the two perpetrators and the description of the vehicle so the Manhunt is on you're
00:32:11
saying that there's a description of two different Vehicles two different Vehicles two different men two different
00:32:16
guns okay and of course as said in the trailer the suspects are considered to be armed and extremely dangerous We Know
00:32:24
by the crimes they've committed they are extremely dangerous so is the thought that they took two vehicles because it
00:32:30
would be easier to transport whatever items they're going to steal from the Hi-Fi store well that that's interesting
00:32:39
I don't know I can't say for certain that they fully believe that both the vehicles belong to the perpetrators
00:32:46
right because you got to keep in mind where is this vehicle description coming from well one could believe that it's
00:32:55
possibly coming from Oren who entered the store right or we've had in other cases Captain where there's other
00:33:02
Witnesses you know where we said that we did didn't have any here but we know that somebody called police with the
00:33:07
unknown trouble call where this vehicle description came from we can't say for certain if it did come from Oren
00:33:16
you have to take it a step further and go okay either both of them are involved or
00:33:23
maybe one or maybe none because Oren at some point is in the basement of the Hi-Fi shop right if he's saying hey I
00:33:34
think I saw these two vehicles on my way into the store he can't say for certain
00:33:38
when they left right boy can you clear something out for me because it I can't find this information and I'm looking
00:33:45
right now I will do my best Mr Captain is this building like separate or is it a part of is it like a standalone
00:33:53
building yeah or like a strip mall okay I from my understanding it is a standalone building well because okay so
00:34:02
because the only picture that I can find it looks as if this Hi-Fi shop is connected to other shops okay that would
00:34:13
also make sense one is called the dollhouse um I'll post these pictures on Instagram
00:34:20
at True Crime garage you're probably looking of pictures at the of the time period
00:34:27
and one thing I will say when I was doing my research is this address that I came up with here that's listed in the
00:34:34
papers for the attack at the time the newspapers that I went through didn't have any pictures of the actual shop
00:34:40
itself but I believe you know we we can imagine that the city's probably grown in the last 45 years right I believe I'm
00:34:50
going off a member here Captain but there is there is a very similar address where there's like a West Washington
00:34:56
Boulevard now and back then there may have just been Washington Boulevard so I couldn't quite confirm both of them are
00:35:04
I believe are currently businesses so I couldn't confirm if the structure had stayed the same and which one was of
00:35:11
this exact Hi-Fi shop but yeah it could be um more of a strip mall type situation
00:35:18
you can some of the stuff that I'm finding is uh this is a Hi-Fi store but one of the
00:35:24
pictures that keeps coming up is a high high five store or called the Hi-Fi shop
00:35:30
but it's in Ann Arbor Michigan so they're just filling in a random picture yeah to go with with the story
00:35:38
stock photos that what they call those yeah and the only reason why I'm saying that is because
00:35:44
maybe you get uh if there's a small parking lot that somebody from a different store parked there you know
00:35:52
like an employee just use that parking lot when I used to teach at the guitar store right I parked
00:35:59
in the parking lot of the building next door so somebody would have seen my vehicle at that shop
00:36:05
but that doesn't mean I was in that shop right no you bring up a good point and I
00:36:10
think that at this time in our investigation in The Manhunt police aren't certain exactly what kind of
00:36:16
vehicle they're looking for they've somehow obtained the description of these two vehicles they're going to
00:36:21
include both of them out to all of their other officers out to the newspapers to get the public
00:36:27
involved you're going to include both hoping that one or both were in fact actually involved in the commission of
00:36:34
these crimes but as we said in the trailer there captain these suspects are considered to be
00:36:41
armed and extremely dangerous the state patrol and police posted several officers on guard at the hospital
00:36:49
because there were a lot of concerns that the men responsible learning that two of the victims had in
00:36:55
fact survived might go to the hospital and try to finish the job so to speak well and
00:37:03
think about if you're the responding officer you go to the scene there's no hostages on the main level you now go to
00:37:11
the basement you find the other four down in the basement three are shot and killed
00:37:18
the other one's in a coma but on top of that you have to have some like you were saying that this this
00:37:27
liquid that they drink there has to you were saying that it was burning the skin
00:37:34
and the victims were vomiting at one point right so you have vomit all over the place you have these
00:37:40
marks that probably don't make any sense to you on their face and on top of that they're all executed
00:37:48
I mean this would be a horrific scene to try to piece together all the puzzles of
00:37:54
what the hell happened well in some of those details were left out of the next day's paper mind you they're still
00:38:00
hunting for the the perpetrators at this time right look it there's no doubt that these
00:38:07
assailants were certainly dangerous but they really weren't on the run right they they were not
00:38:15
intending on running or fleeing or you know going across state lines really what happened is they were intent on
00:38:23
returning to their normal everyday lives after killing three people and leaving another one in critical condition barely
00:38:30
alive in a hospital bed after police gave the public the description of the two suspects police received a couple of
00:38:38
tips right one tip was from a man at the a nearby Air Force Base this is Hill Air
00:38:46
Force Base the man lived at the base he was an Airman and said that another air man his name William Andrews told him
00:38:56
several months before that he and another air man this is Dale s Perry were going to do something big someday
00:39:04
like a robbery then on a separate occasion William Andrews told him someday I'm going to rob the Hi-Fi shop
00:39:12
and if anyone gets in my way I'm going to kill them again if you're working with somebody that
00:39:19
says one day I'm going to do something big like Rob the Hi-Fi store maybe you should start by saying maybe you should
00:39:27
set your goals a little higher right I mean who knows what what conversation was had after somebody says this we know
00:39:36
that a lot of times when something like this happens often the other person thinks that the
00:39:41
the person's joking right or just saying something out of turn there so I'm going to rob the Hi-Fi shop
00:39:49
specifically references the Hi-Fi shop and if anyone gets in my way I'm going to kill them well this tip now mind you
00:39:55
you got to keep in mind we don't know what this tip means at this time when it comes into the police force or to the
00:40:02
task force we don't know anybody can call in we've seen plenty of cases where we have
00:40:09
a divorced wife who's calling in some bad tip about their ex-husband or an ex-husband calling in some bad tip about
00:40:17
their ex-wife right because it's somebody that's mad at somebody and says oh they fit the vague description of
00:40:23
whomever they're looking for their Cape oh if they're capable of hurting me they're capable of pulling this off
00:40:30
so detectives want to figure out is there any validity to this actual tip and they went to the air base responding
00:40:39
to this specific tip but before they arrive another tip is called in and it's from the base as well or very nearby but
00:40:48
the tipster stated that two boys well for a back a lack of a better term were dumpster diving
00:40:55
and in a dumpster located at Hill Air Force Base they found a wallet some purses and identification all of
00:41:05
this belonging to some of the victims of the Hi-Fi murders in this dumpster right
00:41:11
which makes this tip seem a lot more credible right so we got to kind of keep this all in real time here and
00:41:18
understand that not always does the left hand know what the right hand's doing or
00:41:22
the right hand know what the left hand is doing right so by the time detectives got there
00:41:28
to the scene to this Air Force Base a crowd had gathered in the parking lot around the dumpsters
00:41:35
the detective and I tried my damnedest to find his name but but could not just like the the
00:41:43
picture of the actual Hi-Fi shop there are two really good books that discuss the case and the Wikipedia pages
00:41:51
is really good too and pretty thorough but the newspapers and everything else just list this man as the detective who
00:41:59
responded to the scene that's didn't even get his name put it out there not even in the paper
00:42:05
well but I wonder if they did that on some level to protect this and protect them from yeah from these very dangerous
00:42:13
people or does he hold a certain position at that department where we don't want
00:42:19
everybody knowing his name and face right the books by the way are the crime classification manual and
00:42:26
this case is included as a sample case just a few pages of a case study categorized as indiscriminate felony
00:42:35
murder that's a case study where the investigating agency classifies a murder as indiscriminate because the offender
00:42:43
or like in this case the offenders have decided they're going to carry out a felony and will murder whoever
00:42:52
in the commission of that crime regardless of victimology now I'm not an expert enough to know if
00:43:00
the decision to commit murder has to come in advance of the felony or spur of the moment my guess would be that both
00:43:08
apply for that classification the other book is John Douglas and Mark all shakers the anatomy of motive where this
00:43:17
case is briefly referenced in a chapter very fittingly titled Magnum Force at the scene Captain the detective stood in
00:43:25
front of the Gathering crowd at the dumpster and began pulling items out of the dumpster related to the crimes
00:43:33
this Detective took some classes at Quantico and received some training from the FBI
00:43:41
John Douglas says the detective understood both the investigative techniques and the dramatic Flair we
00:43:49
meaning his department at the FBI sometimes advocate if we feel it might help in hunting an
00:43:57
unsub and Unknown Subject or an unknown perpetrator right so the detective using long needle nose
00:44:04
pliers pulled items out of the dumpster one at a time and each time he's waving them so the
00:44:12
crowd could see them as his partner held open an Evidence bag for each item keep in mind technically at this point
00:44:22
the detectives have yet to identify their suspects by name even though they've received some tips right
00:44:30
he suspected the detective at the dumpster he suspected that the perps may be in the crowd and like so
00:44:39
many others they wanted to observe what they could about the investigation as you know with Delphi we have ISP Doug
00:44:49
Carter who says the famous quote you want to know what we know yeah I mean again we have five victims three of them
00:44:58
are now dead one's in a coma so they're not talking and we don't know and we we can assume that these suspects don't
00:45:09
know they don't know the health conditions of the other Survivor so as far as identifying this person if you don't
00:45:19
know these individuals this is going to be really hard other than you know a blanket
00:45:26
um profile yeah I believe that the papers the newspaper at the time when describing the two survivors simply said
00:45:33
that they were both hospitalized one in critical condition so that doesn't give you much of a description one but then
00:45:39
on top of that keeping keep in mind you know just a few weeks ago we discussed Paul John Knowles
00:45:46
and he was a real monster a real piece of work who went around and he robbed and killed people he didn't need to kill
00:45:56
them but he did and he jokingly told somebody at one point later in his life the only good witness is a dead Witness
00:46:04
well that applies here doesn't it because at the time we have at least two perpetrators we have one one victim
00:46:10
saying hey I saw two men I was taken captive and the others were killed by these two men
00:46:17
these two men the perpetrators left that crime scene with merchandise with money
00:46:23
from the robbery believing that they didn't leave anybody alive right believing that they had killed every
00:46:29
witness that saw the crime go down but but there are other mistake is they took items from the victim so when you get
00:46:36
this initial call from the Air Force Base saying hey some guys that I worked with talked
00:46:43
about this and then they they go digging and they find items from the victims if
00:46:48
they never found those items from the victims I think that becomes a dead-end lead
00:46:55
yeah and it's the common curiosity of the perpetrator of the unknown perpetrator that very often yes they
00:47:02
want to know what investigators know they want to trace and track the investigation itself because of many
00:47:09
different reasons but one that we've pointed out in the past is they want to know maybe should I flee now or not
00:47:14
should I take off is now a good time to go live in Alaska right how hot is the hot tub right it's
00:47:22
getting pretty hot how hot is the hot tub this well-trained very intelligent unnamed Detective
00:47:31
he knew from his training that if the perpetrators were in fact in the crowd they likely would have some kind of
00:47:39
visible reaction to seeing these items being taken into police possession this is now evidence
00:47:48
yeah what if he like pulled out each item and went got him a guy team well the detective decided he's going to
00:47:58
like he's he's adding Flair to this he's he's purposely lifting every item up so
00:48:04
it's well visible to the crowd that's Gathering and while he's doing this he's watching
00:48:11
the crowd to see if there is a reaction to which he says he spotted two men who became
00:48:17
visibly more and more agitated each time an item was bagged and tagged by the officers
00:48:24
at one point he says the two men in the crowd were pacing back and forth and sharing like these menacing looks at one
00:48:32
another as they're seeing some of these items pulled from the dumpster because one of the guys is given the look of why
00:48:39
did we take these items you idiot not only that if you wonder like was it one guy's decision to dump these items in
00:48:48
the dumpster right and the other one's like I told you that was a bad idea now look where we're at it's the hot tub and
00:48:55
it's getting hot yeah too hot in the hot tub police then decide hey let's interview these two guys that we saw
00:49:04
becoming visibly agitated in the crowd right and eventually they learn the names of these men from
00:49:11
Witnesses but also from speaking with them the one witness who called in the information about the I'm going to rob
00:49:19
the store this is where they learn the name of Andrews and he is cited as being the one
00:49:27
specifically to have told this witness I want to rob the Hi-Fi shop and if anyone
00:49:32
gets in my way I'm going to kill them after police arrested the two the two guys from the crowd then we have
00:49:40
a third man who comes forward and he turns himself into police and says hey I'm here to talk to you about the Hi-Fi
00:49:49
shop [Music] I want to thank everybody for joining us here again in the garage you mean so
00:50:06
much to us so much more to get to in part two and until part two be good be kind and don't litter
00:50:25
foreign [Applause]