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subject to credit approval C store or ashley.com for [Music] details [Music] welcome to True Crime garage wherever
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you are whatever you are doing thanks for listening I'm your host Nick and with me as always is a man who once made
00:01:51
Kevin nean cry he is the captain did you know that Kevin nean played college football he was a a quarterback one of
00:02:01
the greatest college football quarterbacks of all time yeah he could throw the ball about 75 yards or so it's
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good to be seen and it's good to see you thanks for listening thanks for telling
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a [Music] friend lucky us Captain because today we are drinking ghost blimp by my heroes
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over at tactical Brewing Company this is a full and robust beer dry hopped double
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dry hopped with Citra Galaxy Ella and Vic secret hops garage grade sansy trumpets five big bottle caps and today
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we want to give cheers and thanks to our good friends first up here's the cheers
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to Allison in Atlanta Georgia and a big shout out to Vanessa and Thorton Colorado I'm not sure what size of shout
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out I should give here maybe a little one little tiny baby one to fluffy l Lupa in Seattle Washington if that's a
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real person it could be a cat sounds like a cat fluffy Lupa I once was in a band with a man named Fluffy Lupa and
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let's go back up to the big ones John from Forest Hill Maryland next up we have a shout to Elizabeth in Greenwood
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Indiana and last but certainly not least a huge huge thank you and big time cheers to our buddy Dr Steven from
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Auburn by way of Salem Alabama that's a mouthful everybody we just mentioned went to True Crime garage.com and they
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on Stitcher premium check out our other show called off the Record and that is enough of the business everybody gather
00:04:02
around grab a chair grab a beer let's talk some true [Music] crime all right welcome back thanks for
00:04:23
joining us this episode we're going to dive in to kind of our thoughts on what we see and also possibly some of the
00:04:32
laws that are in place and where we think maybe this case will go and we're talking about the Ahmad Arbury case a
00:04:42
young man he was 25 years old he was shot and killed in February of this year on the
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23d as he was running down a relatively quiet street in a quiet neighborhood he was being pursued by two or three white
00:04:58
men two in one pickup truck who were ordering him to stop these guys were armed and he didn't
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stop and the result is Ahad has been killed and now we have these three men in custody yeah my my first question
00:05:14
when I saw any of this is you see jogger hunted down mhm and that's what I saw over and over and I went well this is
00:05:23
this is horrific and when you start diving in quickly you realize this is It's not as simple as the headline made
00:05:31
it seem my first question was was a mod jogging it seems like he was over 10 miles away from his house if he went on
00:05:42
a jog and he didn't drive somewhere to start his jog if he left from his house and he went to this location and he was
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then jogging back this is a very long jog this would be a jog over 20 miles M this would be your you just happen to
00:05:58
run a Marathon that day so it's not that simple and then you see people like LeBron James or um Oprah Winfrey stating
00:06:09
you know that Ahmad was jogging now I know ahmad's mother claims look he he he did
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jog this was something he did do he was adamant about his Fitness mhm is it possible that he was jogging yes but
00:06:24
what we see on camera on film what we can see is that he is walking up to a building to a house that's not occupied
00:06:34
and it's not uh fully constructed so if we go by George's laws there he's actually not
00:06:44
trespassing now a lot of people say well he was trespassing in the house uh and then he was
00:06:50
possibly stealing stuff from the house now we don't know that what we do know from the homeowner is
00:07:00
and from a Mod's own mother and family we have video footage that came out that shows a mod in the house looking around
00:07:10
now it's a 3 minute video they only released about 3 seconds of it I don't care either
00:07:17
way we have plenty of people do this and if you think they don't start asking your friends everybody that I've talked
00:07:27
to about this case says oh I've gone into houses that are under construction just to see the layout or just to kind
00:07:34
of see what was going on we have no garage door I don't think we have any doors on the property and if there were
00:07:42
doors on the property they were open mhm so by George's law you could actually go
00:07:47
onto the property let's say a front yard if I go on your front yard I'm not trespassing until you tell me I am
00:07:56
correct until you tell me to get off your lawn now it it becomes a thing of if you have
00:08:04
barriers now you have a let's say you have let's take the same scenario you have a fence in your front yard and now
00:08:12
I go inside your fence I'm immediately trespassing mhm cuz there's a barrier there was no barrier this this kid is 25
00:08:22
years old he goes into this property he's looking around so my first my first issue is you're claiming he's jogging I
00:08:32
don't know if that's what he was doing there maybe he was there to steal something I can't know his intent right
00:08:41
so I can't as an intelligent person I can't just go well I think he was there to steal stuff I've been in plenty of
00:08:49
houses under construction I wasn't going to steal anything so why would I assume that he
00:08:57
would so I'm not going to assume that but then I've also SE this is how ridiculous this case is I actually saw a
00:09:06
statement from not one person but multiple people that said that Ahad was interested in
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architecture and that's why he was looking around give me a break these this is what I
00:09:22
hate most about what's happening in our society is people with agendas I want to
00:09:29
know the truth I want to know what makes the most sense not this wild speculation then we get into this whole
00:09:39
Avenue of we have a young man dead by the hands of two others three arrests are made but at
00:09:48
least by the hands of two others mhm and now we have to start talking about their
00:09:53
background oh well this one guy what well he was a he was law enforcement mhm that that to me doesn't have much
00:10:02
bearing on what happened in that moment and he's not law enforcement that day currently yes you know he's retired
00:10:10
he is he's just a citizen who happens to at one time have been in law enforcement
00:10:16
yeah so what I see is a a kid that goes into a building a house he's looking around he
00:10:25
doesn't take anything he comes out of the house it's not like he has a big screen TV
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under his arm let's say he does don't care stealing a big TV does not equal death in my book but let's
00:10:45
just go with with what really happened so at some point I think a mod is spotted he
00:10:53
has some criminal background he's currently on probation he then takes off now in Georgia you have the right to
00:11:05
a citizens arrest and you're allowed to carry a weapon and I think this is the worst part of the whole
00:11:16
situation I'm look it's not for me to decide whether people should be allowed to carry
00:11:23
firearms but I've talked to plenty law officers that say look bringing your weapon out
00:11:33
escalates the situation immensely and that weapon then is not just your weapon it could become
00:11:42
anybody's weapon so what I see on film and what we hear from the 911 call is is he breaking any laws
00:11:51
no you know is he trespassing I guess he's not he's technically not trespassing and he's
00:12:00
technically not breaking any laws and you can't just determine intent and what I feel is that these individuals in the
00:12:08
neighborhood because there were cars being broken into and there was things happen in their neighborhood that they
00:12:17
have the right to protect their neighborhood well that that exact home that Ahmad went into and look here
00:12:23
here's the thing because what happens here when we do these shows Captain is people don't stay fluid they don't stay
00:12:30
they get too much in the moment right so there might be somebody hearing what you're saying now and they're reacting
00:12:37
and they've sent off an email or posted something on our blog please stick around to the end of the show because
00:12:42
you'll see that if you're a new time listener we often work through these things via conversation and work through
00:12:50
them over the course of an episode so are what you think you may be hearing now is not necessarily what we're saying
00:12:58
we're diving into the different speculation that's come out from all different angles and looking at things
00:13:05
the home that Ahmad was in and there's no question about that we even have his family saying yes that was him that was
00:13:12
that was seen on video inside this premises so nobody's denying that what I was clear to point out in the first
00:13:20
episode was there were break-ins in the neighborhood prior and we have the McMichaels on the on the phone stating
00:13:30
that it's the same guy we don't know that Ahmad was involved in anything other than going into that house on the
00:13:38
23rd of February correct there's and it would be dumb to say that he was so the thing the thing going on their job to
00:13:47
decide right the thing here that's difficult is that home that he was in that day on the 23rd had been Burg
00:13:54
burglarized in the past M there was missing property from that from that premises earlier and so the house was
00:14:04
being watched in a way it was under surveillance by the owner who had you know a a system like much of us do at
00:14:12
our own homes you know you've heard us advertis for Simply Safe and ADT before these companies are great they make
00:14:18
great products that you can monitor your home or your property and not have to be
00:14:23
there this man who owns the property actually has another property and lives very far away and somebody we don't know
00:14:32
who had gone into that home and stolen thousands of dollars worth of fishing equipment mhm so he has a system set up
00:14:40
so that he has motion detectors and when things are when motion is detected then
00:14:45
it videotapes it it captures the the uh person on video footage yeah and sometimes what happens with these houses
00:14:53
under construction is they don't set up barriers they don't set up um you know a
00:14:59
door with a bolted lock and and a garage door and things of this nature like you
00:15:05
think they would or should because those items then become broken so on top of whatever was stolen at the site they now
00:15:14
have to replace this other item so you see this a lot with construction I'm not in the business of
00:15:23
telling people what they're supposed to do what we do know is this this kid goes
00:15:28
in into this house looks around the homeowner says look didn't steal anything the first 911 call the 911
00:15:38
operator said okay but what is he doing wrong right but I I don't know I don't know oh black kid running black kid
00:15:45
running that well that's not something wrong now on the other side of things though stop saying he's a jogger he is
00:15:54
running away from a house that again is he trespassing yes no depending on how you
00:16:03
interpretate the law but to me yeah you're trespassing that's not your house you're not supposed to be in there you
00:16:10
didn't take anything no harm no foul but when you leave don't run away from it don't go
00:16:18
sprinting if you believe that you did nothing wrong if you didn't steal anything why you running away why you
00:16:27
sprinting away cuz that's what's happening it wasn't just oh well now back to my
00:16:33
jog but I but I also can't tell from the video footage if he's being pursued at that
00:16:41
point did he get out of the house and once he starts sprinting at that moment did a mod think he was being pursued by
00:16:49
somebody I don't know but we're only talking about what a couple minutes later that
00:16:56
he's lying on the ground with three bullet holes in him so again I don't want to assume that he was being pursued
00:17:05
right away but it seems like he could have been that would give him justification for running away from that
00:17:11
building so what I see is these guys chasing him they catch up to him then he gets
00:17:21
away and he has this moment he has this moment where he could to me looks like he could run free now I
00:17:32
say that lightly because they're in a truck so I don't care how much you're into fitness you ain't out running that
00:17:43
truck it's not going to happen right so I think these individuals caught up with
00:17:50
them multiple times and and that's a level of threat whether they have no clue what
00:17:57
your intent was they have no clue what you did or did not do and they're chasing this
00:18:05
individual as if he's guilty until proven innocent that is not their job that is not what Society appointed
00:18:14
upon them maybe they did at one time but not this day that's what I see I also see two individuals that yes
00:18:25
we don't know if this kid has a weapon or not but for you to grab your shotgun and to grab a what
00:18:36
357 mhm and for it to be you're just carrying them I don't okay let's go through a
00:18:45
hypothetical real quick if this was a police officer responding to the 911 call right MH uh this kid is in this
00:18:55
property he's not supposed to be in what does he doing wrong I don't know but now
00:19:00
he's running okay cop shows up chases Ahad down and says hey stop I want to talk to you and he keeps running now at
00:19:10
some point you're re you're resisting right at some point you're hindering the law the the officer has asked you to
00:19:18
stop felony fleeing yeah and you are not stopping he doesn't know what you did or
00:19:25
didn't do but he wants some questions answered and if that cop then drove up got out of his
00:19:35
Cruiser again I don't know if every law enforcement officer that I talked to about this case said you wouldn't get
00:19:44
out of the car and draw your weapon that's not what would happen you get out of the car hey
00:19:52
Amad I want to talk to you obviously you don't know his name but hey I want to talk to you
00:19:59
if that individual charges you and starts fighting you and you can't defend yourself off in
00:20:08
a game of fisticuffs and that police officer draws his weapon and shoots a mod he's justified in my eyes because
00:20:19
that is what society and that is what his County and his state has hired him to do protect and serve the community
00:20:29
and you would be doing that and once that individual attacked you by any means necessary you need to
00:20:38
Def defend yourself that's how I see it any charges to that officer no but that's not what happened that
00:20:48
day the cops were called and these citizens that have no Authority other than the right to citizen s's
00:20:59
arrest took the law into their own hands are they Justified because of the law I don't think so I think they'll be
00:21:09
charged with something but you mean convicted they have been charged yeah yeah I think
00:21:16
they'll be convicted of something but but it's a it's a tricky situation I don't know it's just uh it's frustrating
00:21:25
because I see I see a mod do things that I wouldn't do and then I see the McMichaels do things
00:21:35
that I definitely wanted to you know mhm and then I but nobody should lose their
00:21:43
life over this this just seems absolutely ridiculous well there in lies the sad sad and I mean I don't just say those
00:21:54
words I mean truly sad part of this whole case is that you know I actually look at this
00:22:02
thing and it reminds me a lot of a case that we covered not too long ago the Leo
00:22:06
Kenny case where we kept talking about a perfect storm and yeah I hate to use that term because if it were actually
00:22:16
perfect if we lived in a perfect world Ahad would still be with us today but what I saw in the Leo Kenny
00:22:24
Kenny case was a perfect storm of things two guys that were going to they were both on edge both were close to going
00:22:34
over the edge and they crossed path that day and the result was two dead men at the end of the day the result here is we
00:22:45
lost Ahmad 25 years old his whole life ahead of him it's look what we got going on here is it's it's it's incredibly
00:22:54
difficult we have a property that we know has been burglar in the past we have an uptick and crime in the
00:23:01
neighborhood at the same time we have video footage of a mod going into the home now here's where I think that
00:23:10
things get really gray and and sketchy very quickly MH what we have too is we have Gregory McMichael who is almost on
00:23:21
speed dial to be policing this neighborhood okay we've had guns this is another issue that's kind of hidden
00:23:31
inside the story there was a gun that was stolen from somebody's vehicle from someone's unlocked vehicle first of all
00:23:38
nobody should be burglarized nobody should have their property stolen from them however it's very it's lock your
00:23:47
door just in case especially if you got a firearm in there now I don't have any reason to believe that it would be
00:23:54
loaded but we we're living in a neighborhood with children it's very irresponsible of any gun owner to leave
00:24:02
a gun where just anybody can grab it m so for starters don't do that now I understand that there's an uptick in in
00:24:10
this crime in in this area as well and I don't mind that you have a situation where somebody is kind of policing the
00:24:19
area because I'm a big believer in neighborhood watch programs I think they do great things they do prevent a lot of
00:24:27
crime and really if the crimes had continued in this neighborhood in the subdivision for you know the next
00:24:35
several months that would be exactly what law enforcement would recommend to citizens of that area to create a
00:24:42
neighborhood watch program and it almost seems like they had that kind of going on here what you have is I don't know
00:24:49
the name of it but you have like these different Facebook groups I know in my neighborhood it's I think it's called
00:24:55
Next Door mhm where where it's not necessarily Facebook but it's it's a group in where the neighbors can talk
00:25:02
and communicate with one another about it could be something as simple as hey I need to hire a roofer does anybody know
00:25:09
anybody that's good and affordable right or hey there's some strange people that
00:25:13
have been wandering in the neighborhood hey there's people that are stealing packages off of this street on the rag
00:25:20
and so it's just a way for the neighbors to communicate with each other and keep
00:25:23
their Community good and safe and so that's what was going on here with this case there's people they're reporting
00:25:30
hey this this home was burglarized this vehicle somebody stole a gun out of it there's been break-ins there's been
00:25:37
thefts and everybody kind of knows this and they were posting some videos security camera videos uh from you know
00:25:43
ring doorbells and and different types of security cameras that were on there and and often in these videos it's
00:25:51
showing a athletic young African-American male mhm again we don't know that that's a mod there's there's
00:25:58
assumptions that are being made even in that 911 call you can hear it what is he
00:26:03
doing wrong well he's running on second and I will say this though if if somebody does go into a property that
00:26:09
has been burglarized in the past and then they are seeing running from the scene I can't fault the the the callers
00:26:17
100% because that does seem a little suspicious right it's a little fishy yeah but one of the videos that they
00:26:25
showed that they were saying well this is possibly a mod at night being in that house at a different day nothing was
00:26:33
taken that day so we have a footage of kids that were in that house little kids we have I believe a couple times where
00:26:46
there was couples that went in the house just to look around one thing that I see
00:26:50
what was being built one thing that I think is interesting here captain that uh most people may not be aware of the
00:26:57
video video that leaked out to the to the public there actually came from a lawyer his name is
00:27:05
Allan Tucker who informally consulted with the McMichaels he leaked the video because
00:27:12
of the rumors that were going around at the time of things people were saying you know it was two white men with the
00:27:20
Confederate flag in the back of their truck driving down the road that shot a jogger in the back and so really what
00:27:27
what ends up we say hey it was the video that really pushed the news along and then probably prompted the
00:27:34
arrest it's interesting that it was almost put out on their behalf to show that it wasn't you know some some
00:27:42
rednecks with the with the Confederate flag in the back of their truck that were were looking to hunt somebody down
00:27:48
that day so it's it's interesting that that came out that way and then it leads to I I believe it helped lead to to the
00:27:57
arrest of these two individuals I think what I see in the video that bothers me so much and one
00:28:05
thing that I think we're going to talk about a lot today on today's show is intent it's intent we talk about the
00:28:14
assumptions made on that 911 call that this guy Ahmad was burglarizing this home and you pointed out nothing no
00:28:22
property from that home was found on his person that day no drugs are alcohol were found in his system he was unarmed
00:28:30
being pursued by armed individuals it gets difficult because you have to understand the intent I
00:28:39
don't care it doesn't bother me so much to call him a jogger because I'm really focusing on intent if he told his mother
00:28:45
that day I'm going out for a jog I believe her I don't have any reason to not believe her say hey he just went out
00:28:52
for a jog now do we tell our moms and dads everything that we do no could he have been there casing The Joint could
00:29:00
he have thought about stealing something and maybe heard something outside and thought nope not today I'll come back
00:29:08
later there's a million different reasons why he could have been there what is IR responsible is to determine
00:29:15
and decide his intent we unfortunately do not know what his intent was that day or reason for being on that property
00:29:24
because Travis McMichael shot this young man to death he's not here to tell us why he went into that building and
00:29:31
that's what is supposed to happen in this world in our society that stuff is supposed to be hashed out in the court
00:29:38
of law and it didn't [Music] happen this show is sponsored by better help do you look forward to the holidays
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[Music] freedom all right cheers mates cheers the soothing sounds of the garage well it's
00:32:12
funny cuz I think sometimes when when people tune in to the show they go man you guys are seem real heated but I I
00:32:18
think I was yelling into my microphone I I okay one we're passionate about this stuff well one we don't want
00:32:26
anybody to die no right so so and but that's what our show covers every week you know and but it's the time that you
00:32:35
spend on this and to one of the things I try to do is to dive in and try to see all sides and try to get opinions from
00:32:47
all sides and reach out to people that are are smarter than me that have more experience than me like Law Officers
00:32:54
also when somebody go well why are you reaching out to a law officer well they've been in these
00:32:59
situations and every single law officer that I talked to I was shocked what is your thought process and
00:33:10
it simply just went back to yes do these individuals have a right to make a citizen's arrest yes but with
00:33:21
in reason and these guys brought guns to a fist fight and brought the fight to that
00:33:32
individual and again like like I said uh all of them said the same thing once that weapon is drawn that's escalating
00:33:41
the situation and it's also put in everybody at Jeopardy MH because that gun can
00:33:49
become anybody's gun M and but what I find sad about this case on top of the fact that this young
00:33:59
individual lost his life and that this happens too often especially in the young black
00:34:08
community I don't have the fear if I go out jogging in my neighborhood or riding
00:34:13
my bike I do not have some fear that somebody's going to mistake me for somebody and I'm possibly going to lose
00:34:21
my life I could not imagine what that would be like as especially a young black male and I don't know again we don't
00:34:34
know what was said to him when he was running away why they're chasing him what was said during the
00:34:42
confrontation it's not even clear I I've heard different reports but they say that yeah three shots and it all came
00:34:51
from the same gun mhm did it I don't know I'm I'm a little confused by why this individual that was following them
00:35:02
that filmed it why he was arrested but I I believe that there had to be then some
00:35:09
connection between well the the purpose of that is that there is proof that he tried to stop Ahmad as
00:35:18
well at one at one time he tried to use his vehicle to cut Ahmad off to apprehend him so here here's where you
00:35:27
have the issue right you well I don't know why I keep saying here is where you have the issue this thing is just
00:35:34
riddled with issues a lot of issues so this has more issues than my mother um the thing here Captain is we
00:35:46
got a big we a big problem with this citizens arrest so yes under Georgia law that that's the difficult thing intent
00:35:54
we cannot say anybody's intent if Ahmad was there burglarizing this property and that comes out to be a fact
00:36:05
then under Georgia law a citizen has the right if they have knowledge firsthand knowledge of a felony being committed
00:36:15
they have the right to hold or apprehend the individual responsible for committing that felony felony right so
00:36:23
if it was burglary if that was a Mod's intent then these guys who went off and pursued a mod they were in the right and
00:36:32
yes it's an open carry state so they are allowed unfortunately to have a gun and
00:36:36
just if anybody can see it it's not concealed it's it's perfectly within their rights within the legal boundaries
00:36:45
of the state of Georgia yeah then on top of that once somebody comes at them with
00:36:51
physical Force they are allowed to use deadly force to protect themselves but that in there lies lies a big part of
00:37:00
the problem right so if you can't just go plucking people off the streets and apprehend them right because when the
00:37:07
cops show up and they go well why did you pull a gun and and um detain this individual this other citizen why did
00:37:14
you detain them then the police can go okay well is if this guy didn't do anything wrong if there wasn't a felony
00:37:22
committed by this individual then the person who plucked him off the streets well well they can be charged with false
00:37:29
imprisonment right so it's a it's a sticky situation and I'm all for being my brother's keeper and I think that we
00:37:37
should we have to govern ourselves a bit in society but what is scary is this citizens arrest idea okay and I don't
00:37:47
come at me because there's going to be be people that are very strong minded that it's a fine thing to do maybe it is
00:37:55
but what I'm seeing here in this situation is how it can go very bad how it can go very wrong very quickly mhm
00:38:03
what we had here is two maybe three individuals that are not equipped to be pursuing a suspect they just aren't and
00:38:12
you can see the flaws in in what they were doing and this led to the death of aad maybe it's murder I don't know what
00:38:22
we what we're going to find Captain is if and when this thing goes to trial I'm guessing that there's a lot of
00:38:30
things that they're sitting on because here's here's the thing I I've almost done one of these citizens arrest myself
00:38:39
I arrest people all the time so let let me explain the situation I'll give you the very short version of it m it's
00:38:45
about 11:15 at night pitch black outside and I hear a noise this was probably two
00:38:52
years three years ago mhm I hear a noise I look out my window and I thought I saw
00:38:58
somebody messing with my next door neighbor's home I go outside to see what it is and yeah I brought I brought a
00:39:05
little uh little backup in my pocket right mhm I see a man attempting to go into the window of
00:39:17
this home mhm it's the middle of the night creeping so I I pull out my backup from my pocket now I didn't here's the
00:39:25
other thing too you'll see officers often no finger on the trigger even when they pull out the
00:39:32
gun because you want you want some time to make that decision is it exact is it the right thing to do no finger on the
00:39:39
trigger do I have to do this the other thing that I did was I did not aim I did not point this thing anywhere at him I
00:39:47
just pointed it toward the ground so he knew that I had a firearm and I said what are you doing are you breaking into
00:39:55
that home and he and I had a long discussion and eventually you know I have the the the
00:40:03
police on on my cell phone mhm who are in route but complete honesty dude if that guy would have taken off running I
00:40:12
wasn't running after him and you're not shooting him I'm not I'm not shooting him either but it it ended up being a
00:40:19
complete misund understanding my neighbor came home during my conversation with this man and explained
00:40:27
to me it was a friend of his who he had instructed to go in through the window because the house was locked up the
00:40:33
window was unlocked yeah but here's how it went down the guy's like uh I know the owner he told me to go through the
00:40:39
window and you're like at 11:30 at night my ass he didn't tell you that you you're
00:40:46
lying to me but what I'm getting at here is I don't know why but also you're at a
00:40:52
distance yes you don't you never like you pointed out when as soon as you have a firearm that gun can become anybody's
00:41:00
gun yeah and what you see is another flaw in them pursuing this young man they got up close to him most officers
00:41:08
know especially with a shotgun you don't get close to the suspect if you don't have to because it then almost always
00:41:15
becomes a fight for the gun I also want to point out some other thing that I hear a lot of people saying okay there's
00:41:23
a lot of people out there that are saying well why didn't Ahad just stop if he would have stopped none of this would
00:41:30
have happened okay let me point something out very clearly if I am jogging running whatever
00:41:39
I'm doing in somebody's neighborhood and two men in a pickup truck showing flashing guns at me tell
00:41:48
me to stop I'm thinking that there's a really good chance that I'm probably not stopping yeah yeah but okay I don't know
00:41:55
who these guys are are he doesn't know who those guys are yeah but let's play some Devil's Advocate okay here's this
00:42:01
this young man and he's on probation right and he's a law breaker this is what he is and he goes into this house
00:42:11
right and he's breaking the law and when he gets out of the house he realizes he's caught so he starts running because
00:42:19
he's on probation right mhm okay he wasn't breaking the law he would't get charged with anything if the cop said
00:42:28
hey just stay away from the house right probably wouldn't even you know they might look up his record and say Hey you
00:42:34
know this is a violation of your probation you got to be careful you don't want to do these things right
00:42:40
right but if it was a police officer and we'll never know but if it was a police officer maybe he stops
00:42:48
maybe he doesn't but once he starts running and he realizes not one truck but two trucks
00:42:55
are chasing in them and these men have guns you going to stop running or you going to run a little faster and then at
00:43:04
some point as they keep catching up to you fight or flight well the flight ain't working cuz that's the thing I
00:43:11
wrestled with when I first saw it I didn't fully understand that it was a mod that was charging at them right not
00:43:19
them charging at a mod right but they're the ones that are consistently pursuing
00:43:24
him so the charge if you will of this individual or the charge of a mod happened when
00:43:32
they're driving their truck to catch up to him and then getting out oh that didn't work get back in the truck catch
00:43:41
up with him you know I mean I would not know H how to respond um again now I don't think I
00:43:51
would have charged the guy with a shotgun but I don't know and also you're talking about
00:43:59
an individual that has to understand that guys like him have been shot in the back for running
00:44:09
away and the people that shot him got away with it that's a part of his makeup which look I'm not going to lie
00:44:20
that's not a part of my makeup I wouldn't even think that way I wouldn't I but also wouldn't have around from the
00:44:29
house I didn't do anything wrong I but if you're out jogging you may jog from the house I could jog from the house if
00:44:37
you're out for a run you may you may run from the house just because that's what
00:44:41
you were doing that was your intent that day just simply to go for a run or and you stopped off along the way right but
00:44:49
but what what we do have to me I see a Sprint from the house okay but again what I I'm going to go back to my other
00:44:58
point is that with the footage that we have it's not clear why is he running from the house it could be as simple as
00:45:08
oh [ __ ] there's some people chasing me already or there's PE people in pursuit
00:45:13
of me and what did he see cuz look if if if I saw two in individuals pull up in a
00:45:22
truck and I saw that they had guns I might start running but again I think it's like back to
00:45:29
their laws as far as Georgia Georgia's laws I here here's what I think will happen I think they'll make a deal and
00:45:38
people will be pissed off but one of the things that pisses me off is people use
00:45:42
things as an agenda this is a horrible situation if these guys were just trying to protect their neighborhood they made
00:45:53
mistakes a lot they made a lot of mistakes but I I don't know these two individuals we can't say if they're
00:46:01
racist or not and I think that that's a big problem too with this is that it again it goes back to intent if they
00:46:08
were these hateful racist individuals then maybe their intent was to go out and carry out their own kind of
00:46:16
punishment what I don't understand here is why you wouldn't have just continued to follow the individual even if he's
00:46:24
running from you you you know you have the police who are trained and equipped to deal with situations right they are
00:46:32
going to take a look at it and try to determine what happened instead you got these two guys who made all these
00:46:39
determinations themselves that day in the middle of the street why wouldn't you just continue to follow the
00:46:47
individual and then when the police catch up to you you can just go it was that guy saw him in in the property
00:46:54
that's my problem with some of this stuff though is like to go well these these white men killed this black boy
00:47:00
therefore it's racist and that's not that's not factually true we don't know and and like I said these guys made
00:47:10
mistakes that doesn't mean that these IND look these guys are going to be on trial for
00:47:16
something whether it's murder in the first degree second degree possibly manslaughter that's what I think they'll
00:47:23
be charged with or what they'll be convicted with or maybe even plea to but again it's not like we we have no
00:47:31
evidence that after it happened that they started cheering and then they went to the clan
00:47:38
meeting and said we did our job now but but then the problem too is it's people have agendas to
00:47:49
push and when a bunch of people go on look you can watch the video and be fr frustrated but I think it's
00:47:58
irresponsible when you're seeing post of man jogging in neighborhood is hunted down black man jogging in neighborhood
00:48:08
is hunted down by white men that's creating some agenda and that it's just not factually
00:48:16
accurate you know what I mean MH and then on the other side people going well these guys had the right to arrest him
00:48:25
and he was just a thug and he was on probation well yeah you're on probation but these individuals did not give him a
00:48:34
chance to live up to his full potential and and that's what I have a hard time with is just
00:48:42
like you know th this I don't know people pushing agendas I it just really bothers
00:48:51
me well well if anything can come out of of this that might be somewhat good I think we need to revisit this citizens
00:49:01
arrest yes thing because it gets we look this is where it went bad it went horribly horribly wrong that day and if
00:49:11
in fact if we are to believe the McMichaels which I'm I'm not certain that I do I don't know enough about them
00:49:19
to have a strong opinion one way or the other that's why I'm looking forward to the trial I think things
00:49:26
will be much clearer after this thing's at trial and I hope that there's not a deal that's done I want to see this
00:49:33
thing play out and figure out who these people were because again everything goes back to intent what was ahad's
00:49:40
intent that attent what was ahmad's intent that day what was the M McMichael's intent that
00:49:49
day they made the assumption that he was burglarizing the property they pursued him it went bad they r wrestled with him
00:49:56
for the gun they ended up shooting him and killing him in the street if he was just out for a jog this is terrible
00:50:03
again it's it's the whole argument yes you can say we have the da saying they were just defending themselves they were
00:50:11
using deadly force to protect themselves because he was fighting with them for the gun they're the ones that put
00:50:19
themselves in that position who's to say that Ahmad didn't feel like his life was
00:50:24
being threatened as soon as he saw the gun and he goes you know because some people say well he he could have ran
00:50:29
this way that way or the other way but instead he charged at them he may have thought his only chance at survival was
00:50:37
to take the gun that's what I'm saying and and and again we have evidence to somewhat back that up you're chased by
00:50:45
you're being chased by multiple vehicles and they catch up to you and then you get away and then they catch up to you
00:50:53
again how many times you going to do that with the whole time having the fear cuz
00:50:58
you know there's a gun you know there's a shotgun with the fear that you could be shot in the back because you went in
00:51:07
and looked at a a house and look even if his intent was to steal everything in the goddamn house even if his intent was
00:51:15
to go in there and by some hand of God miracle that he could lift the damn house up by himself one-handed and carry
00:51:25
that house back to his mama's house and say mama I I got my own house even if he was running down the
00:51:31
street with the house on his hand you have no right to shoot him dead it doesn't equal
00:51:41
murder and that's that's what's so frustrating here like oh well we thought we're in the right and oh yeah you
00:51:48
somebody breaks into my car I don't want them dead yeah I pissed off about it yeah but that's why we have a police
00:51:59
force right but I don't want them dead and that's why I think that the citizens arrest is can be a terrible thing
00:52:06
because it you have people that are not trained people that are not equipped to have any idea what to do in these
00:52:15
situations and they're out they're out playing Deputy again I mean in a perfect world
00:52:22
if if the McMichaels really thought he was doing something wrong that day just stay in your damn truck and follow the
00:52:31
guy whoever it may be regardless of skin color follow him and when the police catch up you called 911 when the police
00:52:39
catch up just point to the man the individual or the home that they ran into and say right the guy that we think
00:52:47
was burglarizing the home is in there and then the police go and talk to that guy and that's how these things are
00:52:53
supposed to play out that's how that's how these things play out when smart individuals are involved yeah but here's
00:53:01
the [ __ ] thing about it is here's the other evidence we have that these guys are just freaking morons they call
00:53:09
911 what street are you on oh we don't know I really don't know I think somebody could make some
00:53:16
real good argument that their intent was harm from the beginning because these are simple steps that you could make we
00:53:24
got in our car we know this guy is on this property we don't know if he's stolen anything we don't know if he's
00:53:30
armed so we we take our guns with us we don't need to take them out we're going to keep a distance in our truck we're
00:53:37
going to follow this individual we're going to call 911 we're going to say we're on this
00:53:41
road we're on this road you turned on that road and you don't even know what road you're on we're on this road we're
00:53:48
falling this individual oh now he's cutting through the houses he's going on to this other Road and you can assist
00:53:55
the cops in the arrest by using your telephone and it's just a shame that they didn't do that I
00:54:06
also think that if the cops came and talked to a mod that they like I said before I think they would have
00:54:13
let them go they I think they would have said look you know they they've had people break into this property they
00:54:19
have have had break-ins in this neighborhood and this is why individuals called 911 and this is why these
00:54:27
individuals followed you you're under probation you need to be careful and you need to go back home yep this regardless
00:54:37
of what the intent was we know the outcome okay we know he didn't have any property from that property on his
00:54:45
person we know he was unarmed and unfortunately the MC Michel are going to say and they have said this it's in the
00:54:52
police report they they didn't know either those things to be truthful you know they didn't know that that to be
00:54:58
the case in fact they did cite that a firearm was stolen in the neighborhood previously so therefore they thought he
00:55:05
could have been armed but you're exactly right Captain what the result of this whole thing should have been was the
00:55:14
police handle the situation that these citizens the McMichaels handed over to the police
00:55:23
they talk to the individ ual and like you said it should be a verbal warning a verbal warning is what should have came
00:55:31
out of this and that's what makes you sick to your stomach when you know what actually did come out of this it should
00:55:35
have been a verbal warning of look there's been some problems in the neighborhood young man I understand you
00:55:43
weren't doing anything wrong today but do know going forward we don't want to see you in that house right and going
00:55:50
forward none of the neighbors want to see you in that house they will likely call the police again if you go back in
00:55:57
there so just stay on the roads but hold on the other thing too is even a house that has no borders No
00:56:04
Boundaries once you're stated that that is trespassing then if you do it again it's trespassing I just want to
00:56:10
reiterate because I've been so mad all week that that people will take this crime right they'll take this scenario
00:56:19
they'll take the death of this young man and they'll use it to push their own godamn agendas well the agenda I'm
00:56:29
pushing is that they need to tweak that citizen's arrest deal they need to clean
00:56:33
that up because it's it's giving yeah but that makes sense unnecessary authority to individuals
00:56:39
that clearly aren't capable of handling it right but that makes sense because that's one of the reasons why all this
00:56:46
stuff happened that's one of the reasons why this young man died that's the agenda you should be pushing I actually
00:56:52
think that the law is pretty clear I think that it's it's just it the way that it's set up is it leads to a
00:57:00
misinterpretation possibly or or a gray area because what it states is that if you have firsthand knowledge that
00:57:06
somebody's committing a felony see that's where that's where this thing really needs to be analyzed from
00:57:12
because the McMichaels did not have firsthand knowledge that a felony was being committed they just didn't we are
00:57:19
sitting here what 80 days after after he was killed and we still don't know we don't know that ourselves nobody
00:57:28
knows that that a felony was being committed or not and that's what the law states if you have firsthand knowledge
00:57:34
that a felony is being committed well it's clear that they it's clear that they didn't have that well and all the
00:57:40
evidence points that it wasn't happening correct the home owner saying nothing was stolen well nothing was stolen but
00:57:48
but again though it goes back to intent if he entered the property with the intent of stealing something then it te
00:57:54
technically is burgy right and but you can't know the intent of a dead guy [Music]
00:58:10
correct hot in the hot tub going to have to cool down after this episode and you know everybody that
00:58:21
involved you know I think you know our hearts uh go out to a Mod's family mhm and I'm happy that it's going to trial
00:58:30
because I think that I have faith in the court system I think they'll get to the
00:58:34
bottom of this and figure out exactly what happened and handle it in the in a way that's proper and that if punishment
00:58:42
is necessary that it's handed out and um executed we should say yeah and I I would like to hear from people cuz you
00:58:50
know we're always constantly trying to learn and better ourselves and and every situation but to hear from you on the
00:58:56
blog again you know be adults about it cuz if you're not we delete those comments so until next week well I do
00:59:05
have a recommended reading oh well let's get on it and I actually think that it's
00:59:10
pretty fitting giv given the case that we covered this week so today we are recommending a book called fakes
00:59:16
forgeries and frauds by Nancy Moses look what's real what's fake why do we care in these times of false news
00:59:24
and fake science these questions are even more important than ever because they hold a mirror to the unsettling
00:59:32
reality in which we live fakes forgeries and frauds goes beyond the headlines tweets and blogs to explore the true
00:59:39
nature of authenticity and why it means so much today we will have that great title amongst some other very good ones
00:59:48
on our recommended page at true Crim garage.com and new songs from the show are added daily or being added daily so
00:59:57
you can check those out by searching for True Crime Garage on Spotify Apple music
01:00:03
Google Play all the streaming services until next week be good be kind and don't
01:00:09
[Music] litter [Music] Angie's List is now Angie and we've heard a lot of theories about why I
01:00:50
thought it was an Eco move few your worse less paper no it was so you could say it faster no it's to be more iconic
01:00:58
must be a tech thing but those aren't quite right it's because now you can compare upfront prices book a service
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instantly and even get your project handled from start to finish sounds easy it is and it makes us so much more than
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