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welcome to True Crime garage wherever you are whatever you are doing thanks for listening I'm your host Nick and
00:02:18
with me as always is a man that knows the solution to all problems worldwide is simple it's pure rock Fury ladies and
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gentlemen here is the captain yeah pure rock Fury and a little hipop anonymous it's good to be seing and good to see
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you thanks for listening thanks for T of [Music] friend this week we are very excited to
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everyone we just mentioned went to True Crime garage.com and helped us out with this week's beer fund and for that we
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thank you yeah B you in beer run get you some go to True Crim garage.com hey support the show get something in return
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make yourself look good make yourself smell good make yourself feel good bye picking up a true crime Garage shirt
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today and Colonel that is enough of the business all right everybody gather around grab a chair grab a beer let's
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talk some true [Music] [Music] crime [Music] in early January of 1990 the messenger inquire reported the
00:04:51
following with the headline at the top of page one announcing victim of brutal murder discovered the body of a man
00:05:00
beaten and shot with hands feet and teeth removed was discovered Sunday morning January 7th 1990 in South Davies
00:05:09
County Kentucky the public affairs officer for Kentucky State Police says quote it's absolutely a case of Foul
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Play and whoever did this attempted to obscure the identity of the body they didn't want any fingerprints or any
00:05:25
identification from dental records it appears that was deliberate one trooper with over 15 years experience with the
00:05:34
force described it as the most brutal murder he has seen the Davies County coroner was at
00:05:42
the scene and judging from a preliminary inspection set of the body it appears the victim was shot at least twice and
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severely beaten on the chest and head with a blunt instrument he said that there were no tattoos or identifying
00:05:58
marks on the body the unidentified victim was described as being white 25 to 35 years old 125 to
00:06:07
140 lb about 5' 7 in tall with collar length brown hair Kentucky State Police said a cadav dog trained to find bodies
00:06:18
will be brought in to search the area for the victim's body parts but would not say whether anything besides the
00:06:25
body was found at the scene police have no suspect specs he said police were urging anyone who may
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have seen anything unusual or know of a missing person meeting the description of the victim to call the State Police
00:06:43
or the sheriff's dep department they would be keeping all calls confidential they
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said adding that the description of the victim will be sent to law enforcement agencies across the country there is a
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great quote that sums it up nicely by one of the officers in charge of the scene when asked to comment on the
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murder the body recovery scene and the situation as a whole he simply said it's bizarre the Kentucky State Police said
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that they would be pursuing all of the possibilities and quote it may just be a brutal murder or it could be a
00:07:24
sophisticated type situation but it is kind of an usual situation this is true crime
00:07:36
[Music] garage well Captain we are once again in the great state of Kentucky and here we
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are talking about another unidentified remains that were found in Kentucky and I want to take it a step further than
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what we did in the trailer so what you heard in the trailer there everyone is kind of pieces from the first article
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that ever came out about this case and that would be from January of 1990 now the second newspaper article and this is
00:08:15
the same newspaper I don't know if it's the same writer or not but we have the same newspaper here and just on day two
00:08:23
I want everybody to kind of hear how the information has changed already now what
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is stated in the trailer is based off of what they would call a preliminary autopsy and that's just simply that we
00:08:36
have the corner on scene where this body is found and located and kind of assessing the victim and the situation
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as he or she would see it on the crime scene and then speaking with the newspaper this article comes out after
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they've had time to actually conduct a proper autopsy so listen to how some of this information has changed
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or or the variations of the information that we have in this case this article is written by Steve hunt and it's from
00:09:06
the next day saying the headline says slaying victim remains unidentified it says after an autopsy is searched by a
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cadaver dog in checks of numerous leads authorities have not identified the mutilated body of a man found Sunday in
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eastern Davies County the victim a white male this time we have him listed at 25
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to 30 years old and now they know that he has been shot six times three times in the head and
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three times in the chest with a 22 caliber weapon the victim also had been severely beaten with a blunt instrument
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and his skull was crushed the autopsy did not determine what type of instrument was used in the blunt force
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trauma the man's nude body with its hands and feet severed was discovered off of Pleasant Valley Road again that's
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Davies County Kentucky police initially reported that the victim's teeth had been removed but the autopsy revealed
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that the majority of the teeth were still intact of the 2,000 death investigations that this coroner has
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worked he says quote this is the weirdest the victim is described as being about 5' 7 in tall 120 to 140 lb
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with collar length brown hair I do want to note that I've seen on the internet captain that this collar length brown
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hair even though it's reported this way in the first couple days I've seen reports
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on the internet that state that it could be hair as long as 8 Ines so I don't know what the discrepancy is there but
00:10:41
it appears that this individual had quite curly hair and that will become obvious When anybody looks up pictures
00:10:48
of this still unidentified individual difficult thing about this case is the conflicting information online yes but
00:10:56
when they say this is the weirdest case I mean to me it's brutal and maybe possibly leans to more than one attacker
00:11:06
because how much damage was done to this individual and I think that the the suspicions that you have and that I have
00:11:14
really kind of echo what the officer was saying at the crime scene at the body recovery scene that very first day where
00:11:22
he says look this just might be another brutal murder or it could be something far more sophistic at we just don't know
00:11:30
it this time because we've not been able to identify this victim the article goes
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on to say and this is the coroner's word saying that the victim's hands had been
00:11:38
cut off at the wrist and the feet cut off at the ankles and they were unable to determine the instrument or what
00:11:45
instrument was used to amputate the hands and feet by amputating the hands you're eliminating one of the
00:11:53
identifiers but by leaving the teeth then you could get identification through dental records yes and the
00:12:01
article goes on to state that you know the the sheriff the Davies County Sheriff at the time he's saying this
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autopsy was very helpful it did answer some of the questions we have we now know a little bit more about the
00:12:14
circumstances not only how the victim died but what he may have been dealing with in terms of a perpetrator or I'm
00:12:22
sorry what they may be dealing with in terms of a perpetrator he declined to elaborate the the sheriff did of course
00:12:29
if this is sounding familiar to anybody we covered a case on episode 534 we titled that case man with no
00:12:39
hands this case is possibly connected to that one yeah and people are probably thinking hey this sounds familiar that's
00:12:47
exactly why because it's a very similar case where the man with no hands still is just that he's he's a man who has not
00:12:55
been named yet he's not been given his name back the rough found around the same time in both in the state of
00:13:02
Kentucky and we'll get into those kind of similarities and differences here in a minute they go on to say the state
00:13:09
police goes on to say in this article that that c the cadaver dog was brought in they were hoping to find the head I'm
00:13:16
sorry they were hoping to find the hands and feet somewhere at this scene and even with the cab dog nothing turned up
00:13:24
so somebody somebody dumped this body there and and were very aware and went out of their way to to not leave these
00:13:33
items behind so let me just get this correctly so we have multiple gunshots we have blunt force trauma to the chest
00:13:40
and head and then we have severed hands and feet yeah and so here's what I'm not
00:13:45
clear on and I was hoping to get some clarification on this and maybe we we will at some point it seems like the
00:13:51
Kentucky State Police are pretty tight lipped on this case and and I get it and I understand why I don't think that
00:13:57
either this case or the man with no hands are cold cases I think that they have the potential to heat up very
00:14:04
quickly and a lot of that's based off of Just science right obviously they have the DNA of the man with no hands and
00:14:11
they have the DNA of the Davies County John de right what you're hoping at least with that information that at some
00:14:19
point if we identify our victim that may lead us to one understanding the circumstances in how and why why this
00:14:29
individual was attacked or killed it also may lead you to a suspect pool a pool of people that would have been
00:14:36
close to this individual maybe they have criminal maybe there's a criminal element with inside that Social Circle
00:14:43
and so it could lead you to to the suspect just by identifying the victim here what's so interesting about that to
00:14:50
me and why I think that that's a very likely situation here Captain is that look at what the lengths that the
00:14:57
perpetrator or perpetrators went to to make sure that the person was not identified right and so it could lead
00:15:04
you right to the suspect's doorstep again the the weird thing here is I'm unclear about the the teeth right so we
00:15:14
two very different reports very quickly in this case where the day of they're saying look teeth were
00:15:21
removed this second day they're saying there were some teeth missing but there were not none of them were extracted
00:15:28
right so what I'm wondering if you look at where the blunt force trauma occurs on the victim here again they say chest
00:15:37
and head but to me the majority of it is on the face itself yeah in the face and
00:15:43
if anybody was listening to our show last week they know that that's important but here I wonder Captain if
00:15:49
the the teeth missing any of the teeth that are missing if they're simply missing because of the blunt force
00:15:55
trauma that maybe somebody didn't go out of their way to distract them the way that some reports have said here it's
00:16:01
just happen stance that when you are applying that force and that D doing that damage bones are going to break
00:16:08
bones will chip teeth will chip teeth will be knocked out it's difficult in in both of these cases to think that there
00:16:14
is a family out there that has a missing person in their family why hasn't this individual been identified and so by us
00:16:23
shining the light on it and being able to share this information and share the IM image of this victim that that maybe
00:16:31
somebody will come forward and say hey I I knew that guy or or that's uh a family
00:16:36
member right and the thing too you know they're going to do their work behind the scenes to process all the physical
00:16:43
evidence that was found at the scene this would be things like blood hair fiber samples bullets taken from the
00:16:49
body and that last bullets taken from the body is an interesting line there too because really looking at this crime
00:16:57
scene and and where they find the victim I'm guessing that any physical evidence
00:17:04
they have they're going to have to pull it from the victim themselves it it doesn't appear like this crime scene
00:17:10
will have a wealth of physical evidence it simply looks to me like somebody dumped this poor guy there covered him
00:17:18
up with some sticks and he's he's in the thickets I mean he's in the woods pretty
00:17:23
much and that I guess that's another interesting angle to this whole case when you look at it and it's something
00:17:30
that reminds me very much of the man with no hands obviously that we have a situation that it looks to me like it
00:17:36
probably would have taken two individuals to place this person where he was ultimately found and so while you
00:17:44
may only have one actual murderer you may have more people involved in disposing of this individual now the man
00:17:52
with no hands you know he's found in a barn he's 6'5 even even even on the short end of it they have him listed at
00:18:00
6'4 right I've seen him listed as tall as 6'6 but General consensus seems to be the man with no hands was 6'5 230 lb and
00:18:10
he's found inside a barn unless you had some tools or something to help you move
00:18:15
that person that's going to require two people to place him here now our Davies County John do he is significantly
00:18:23
smaller than the man with no hands they have him listed at approximately 5 foot 6 to 5' 7 in tall 125 to 140 lb so
00:18:34
significantly smaller than the man with no hands however given the lay of the land and where the body was found again
00:18:41
he's found in the thickets in the woods it looks to me like a good chance that somebody may have had to carry him a
00:18:48
decent distance from from the road we don't have any tire tracks that if if they do have them they've not said this
00:18:56
publicly that they have any c certain types of tire that they are looking for what information we do have that is
00:19:03
interesting to me is that the corner stating that we believe that he was killed within a day or a couple days of
00:19:10
being found so he's not the decompositions not extreme here if we were hoping to find tire tracks or if
00:19:18
there ever were any if anybody did drive off the road you would think you would be finding them given the short period
00:19:24
of time that elaps between placing the body there and then when these two Hunters are out in the woods and
00:19:31
discover this pile of sticks with the man underneath of it right but also if these cases were
00:19:37
connected as the murderer maybe you don't place this individual in a Tobacco Barn because you don't want them to be
00:19:46
connected right so let's take a look at that the Grant County John Doe if you if
00:19:52
you were to want to officially look up the man with no hands he's referred to as the Grant County John Doe we chose
00:20:01
this other name and don't attack us for it because we didn't come up with it it was actually reported one way at at some
00:20:08
point that uh a news Outlet reported him to be the man with no hands and that was
00:20:14
a very interesting title and why do you choose an interesting title well this guy needs to be identified and the more
00:20:21
people that are interested in listening to the information and looking up the information the better chance it is that
00:20:27
he gets identified right so that's why you roll with that so let's compare Grant County John do the man with no
00:20:33
hands to this Davies County John do the Davies County John Doe is found January 7th 1990 and remember it's believed that
00:20:42
he was killed shortly before being placed there we have our man with no hands is found April 9th
00:20:50
1989 so less than a year apart now they were found about approximately 185 5 to 190 mil apart when they're asked about
00:21:02
how bizarre this Davies County John Doe case and situation is you can almost see
00:21:09
it you can almost see it if you reading between the lines of their words where they're like yeah this is pretty unusual
00:21:16
this is very unusual they won't go out of their way to say it's the only thing we've ever seen like this no because the
00:21:22
officers at the same time they're at this scene and they're going wait a second where have I heard of something
00:21:28
like this before oh it was in our state and it happened less than a year ago where the hands were removed of another
00:21:36
victim yeah you'd have to assume that law enforcement heard about the other case you'd have to assume at some point
00:21:43
that maybe even those law enforcement agencies reach out to other people in the state for some help to possibly
00:21:51
identify the victim well and in both cases here Captain we got the state police that are called in immediately
00:21:58
right so it's technically belongs to the same agency you just have different posts that have these uh jurisdiction or
00:22:06
or or will be actively working a particular case but let's let's refresh the memories of the beautiful listeners
00:22:15
out there so when we're talking about the man with no hands again that was an episode we did last year November of
00:22:22
2021 episode number 534 the very basic General summary of the case and this is by the vicap alert that's on fbi.gov you
00:22:37
can find this on their website says on Sunday April 9th 1989 the victim's remains were discovered in a Tobacco
00:22:44
Barn in rural Grant County Kentucky it is estimated the victim was killed approximately 2 weeks prior the victim
00:22:52
was shot twice in the back of his head with a 22 caliber gun or sorry 22 caliber weapon is the exact words they
00:22:59
use here his hands were cut off and he was stripped of all of his clothing the victim had extensive dental work to
00:23:07
include a 10un porcelain fixed a porcelain to Metal Bridge with missing teeth replaced with porcelain pontics I
00:23:15
believe is how you say that for additional information and photographs regarding this victim refer to the
00:23:21
National missing and unidentified person's system namus database case report number
00:23:30
86 because of the extensive dental work I can't believe that this individual has
00:23:37
not been identified right that's that's always been a very troubling thing for me the first thought that you have in
00:23:43
this situation when somebody like this has not been identified you start to wonder has he ever been reported missing
00:23:49
has he ever been reported missing from anywhere I mean we went through our coverage of that case we went through
00:23:55
persons that would match his height that were reported missing in the months and
00:24:00
years leading up to it and we couldn't find anybody that looked like him we had some great listener feedback on this as
00:24:08
well and with this other case with the Davies County John Doe we hear the same thing repeated in
00:24:14
the Grant County case in the man with no hands case 22 caliber weapon weird right
00:24:20
I know that that's a pretty common caliber to to use and we we often will cite that on many cases that we've
00:24:27
covered here in the garage but interesting that the body's disposed of in a very similar
00:24:33
fashion and so much so that we're talking 30 years later neither of these individuals have been identified still
00:24:42
to this day and in both cases the same caliber of weapon is used and the man with no hands case shot in the back of
00:24:50
the head that seems execution style to me with the Davies County John Doe I mean it does seem a little different
00:25:01
right I mean it's we have the blunt force trauma along with six gunshots so a little bit different in that situation
00:25:09
but we have the same caliber the first thing I'm doing if I'm law enforcement is I'm doing a ballistic test to see if
00:25:15
those bullets match the same gun as the first victim exactly and the other thing
00:25:21
that makes this really interesting here too Captain is unfortunately 30 32 years
00:25:26
later neither these individuals identified yet but the work that Kentucky State Police have done on both
00:25:33
of these cases it they've done a lot of hard good work on these cases and that's
00:25:40
why I think that either one of them could heat up like that I mean at a moment's notice they could heat up very
00:25:46
quickly in both cases now as far as the Davies County John Doe goes we did have the officers pointing out very quickly
00:25:55
early on they're like look this is going to be particularly difficult to investigate because usually we law
00:26:01
enforcement police we have more leads to go on we usually have something to use as a starting point they're saying here
00:26:09
we don't know who the the victim is we don't know how he got here we don't believe him to be local we believe that
00:26:16
he was killed just days or couple days prior to being placed here but we have no victim name no no clothing nothing to
00:26:26
point us in any kind of Direction at all and one thing that makes this particularly difficult too is we found
00:26:34
this with the man with no hands at some point in their investigation they've not
00:26:38
released a whole lot to the public but at some point in their investigation they start kicking the tires on this
00:26:44
idea that well maybe this man was brought here maybe he was driven here from a great distance to be dumped here
00:26:52
we already know that they went to the extensive lengths of removing his hands well maybe they didn't mind driving
00:27:00
hundreds of miles several states away to dispose of this person's body now in the
00:27:06
Davies County John Doe situation they point out that the victim had a quote farmer tan well he's found in January in
00:27:16
Northern Kentucky in fact this is um I've never been to Davies County but it it's
00:27:25
directly below the Indiana border state line there he's found in January in Northern Kentucky
00:27:35
and found within a day or so of having been killed yet he has a farmer stand and so one thing that they did put out
00:27:43
to the public fairly quickly in in the Davies County case is based off of that information we're we're we're looking
00:27:50
for a breadcrumb here we are looking for a breadcrumb here we're going to throw this out to the public and say because
00:27:56
of this farmer tan there's a good chance he was brought here from someplace else
00:28:00
yeah unless he's a complete Weirdo And and wears his T-shirt into the tanning bed exactly exactly so that throws a
00:28:09
whole another wrench into this situation and we do know that they were putting out the victim's description across the
00:28:17
country they were looking for anybody that would vaguely match the description of this man this is also a tricky
00:28:24
situation I think for law enforcement because if you do a ify his family does this put his family either one of the
00:28:31
victims doeses it it put their family In Harm's [Music] Way this show is sponsored by better
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know where to [Music] go all right we are back to the windows to the walls cheers everybody cheers and make
00:31:27
sure you subscribe to the show that's right cuz we release shows willy-nilly whenever we feel like it you'll probably
00:31:33
miss one if you're not subscribing yeah don't be left don't be left in the dark that's right well here Captain we got
00:31:40
this weird situation when we left off we were talking about how law enforcement were working under the hypothesis that
00:31:48
the victim may be from outside of Davies County that may be driven there and placed there in this in this spot
00:31:56
however they also go out of the way to say that they believe that the killer was probably local or had some kind of
00:32:03
local ties based off of where and how they found the body meaning that they beli that somebody knew that spot that
00:32:10
they didn't just drive and at random pull over and place this victim there so that's a weird kind of angle to work off
00:32:19
of that the victim's not from that location but the Killer is probably local now we have brought up DNA
00:32:27
on this case and we know that that's going to be what will ultimately break this case wide open this situation in
00:32:36
2007 they actually identified the Davies County John Doe as a Scott Michael Morris so Scott Michael Morris went
00:32:46
missing from Indianapolis as a teenager in 1978 let me let's just think about that
00:32:52
for a second I I know we're throwing out a lot of numbers and a lot of locations
00:32:56
and information so gets a little cloudy sometimes Scott Michael Morris who they identified to be that of the Davies
00:33:04
County John do Cas soled went missing in 1978 from Indianapolis Davies County John Doe is found in
00:33:12
1990 in Kentucky 12 years 11 and change after this teenager went missing M I have a couple different reports here one
00:33:23
report says 2009 the other report says 2010 but regardless both have the same result
00:33:31
what they say here Captain is that further DNA testing I don't know how they arrived at the idea that this
00:33:38
person was Scott Michael Morris maybe some samples got screwed up maybe they were testing something else I I'm a
00:33:46
little unclear of of how they arrived at that conclusion yeah but we need to give
00:33:51
Kentucky State Police big UPS on this because I mean one of my favorite quotes is is an error only becomes a mistake
00:33:59
once you refuse to correct it and here they made an error they did not allow it to become a mistake because they did
00:34:08
correct it and they announced it to the public they're saying look whether it be
00:34:12
2009 or 2010 we mistakenly identified these remains they do not belong the body does not belong to that
00:34:22
of Scott Michael moris well one of my favorite quotes is um yes I believe in ghosts but more importantly I think they
00:34:29
should believe in themselves well let's not leave the listeners hanging here because that Scott Michael Morris angle
00:34:36
of the story is interesting in itself so just a quick little bad choice of words
00:34:41
when we're talking about a victim without hands just a quick little aside here as far as Scott Morris's case goes
00:34:48
it says here on the Charlie project website that Scott was last seen in his hometown of Indianapolis Indiana on
00:34:55
August 14th 19 78 he went to a convenience store down the street from his home and never
00:35:02
returned he was a frequent runaway at the time of his disappearance 3 days after Scott went missing he called his
00:35:09
family to say that he was working for a carnival in Pennsylvania in 1989 he called a family friend and said
00:35:18
that he was okay and still working for a carnival but would not say where the conversation was very brief and Scott
00:35:26
never got into touch with his loved ones again after that 1989 phone call to a family friend then we had the nude body
00:35:36
found in Davies County Kentucky 1990 was misidentified as Scott in 2007 the victim had been beaten and shot to death
00:35:44
his hands and feet were cut off and his teeth had been removed again it sounds like only a portion of the teeth were
00:35:51
removed and this according to the Charlie project says in 2009 was when DNA analysis proved that the dead man
00:35:59
wasn't Scott more so weird angle to that that story that he's misidentified the body's misidentified but then this Scott
00:36:08
Morris case is interesting in itself because he's a known runaway he called a couple times to let his family know that
00:36:16
he was alive in fact he calls the second call comes in 11 years after he goes missing at that point he's not a runaway
00:36:25
right he's never gotten in touch with his family again after 1989 and I've read several articles captain that says
00:36:32
that it's believed that he is is dead that he's no longer with us right and so I guess I mean that's certainly going to
00:36:40
make sense hell this unidentified body was identified to be him but um really I'm kind of wonder where this this Scott
00:36:49
Morris case goes now if anybody would have any information on the Scott Morris case you'll want to contact the
00:36:56
Indianapolis Police Department for that one at 317 327 6915 but we do want to point out here
00:37:05
based off of all the information we have and that we've seen and received it appears that Scott Morris wanted to be
00:37:12
missing or at least not with his family yeah but how bizarre is it that we have a situation where we think possibly
00:37:21
because of the distance because of the time because of the because of the way the bodies were found the the torture
00:37:29
that was to these victims you could make a pretty intelligent argument that they're connected and with the 22
00:37:38
caliber yeah then one of the victims is identified and then they go oops oopsie not not the guy sorry right it makes the
00:37:49
case even even stranger yeah and it's one of those things too that I wanted to make sure that we included
00:37:57
this portion in the show because of what if this Scott Morris guy is still alive
00:38:04
and well and he's fine right he's gone on and he's created a different life for himself living away from his
00:38:12
family we don't know why he left but obviously it we have the it's obvious that he did not want to be with his
00:38:19
family for whatever reason but at the same time as The Story Goes he reaches out at least on two occasions to go out
00:38:27
of his way to let them know hey I'm fine I'm you know nothing terrible has happened to me I wonder if this Scott
00:38:35
Morris guy is still out there if they're wrong that he's not dead has this information that he was you know
00:38:42
identified as this this body that was discovered in Kentucky if this information has just not reached his
00:38:49
eyes or ears for some reason because you have to wonder if he went out of his way
00:38:54
twice to let family know hey I'm alive and well right that if this information had reached him you would think he would
00:39:02
reach out one more time and say nope that's not me I'm not the guy that they found in Kentucky but he's not done that
00:39:09
maybe that's what they're basing off their statement of well we believe for whatever reason that Scott Morris is is
00:39:15
now deceased yeah or strange that there's no followup coming from law enforcement they're the ones that made
00:39:22
the mistake you think maybe at some point they go oh well we you know we did further testing and
00:39:29
we actually think we're wrong and on top of that we actually know what happened to Scott so I do want to make sure that
00:39:35
we discuss the discrepancy in the general information in this case just so that if this were to hit the right
00:39:43
listeners ears that they don't go oh they're not talking about a case that I know about so rather than rather than we
00:39:53
do not know what the exact information is what the most correct information is because we can only base it off of the
00:40:00
very limited information that has been released by the Kentucky State Police now we have it reported multiple ways
00:40:08
from different sources so we're just going to kind of give it all to you and you can sift through and find what you
00:40:15
believe to or or what is in fact the case here but this individual is still unidentified it's been 32 years it's
00:40:22
he's a male that was found in Owensboro Kentucky the age range is weird to me Captain because I've seen it fluctuate
00:40:31
quite a bit it seems to be it seems to be a very fluid situation with this man's age where he was listed at 20 to
00:40:39
30 years old then at some point He's listed 25 to 30 which is a nice tight window I like a I like a smaller window
00:40:46
so we're more specific here but now as it sits 32 years later the most common information you will find is that this
00:40:54
individual is estimated to have been 25 to approximately 40 years of age at the time of his murder he is Caucasian and
00:41:04
here again you're going to see a wide swing in the potential height of this individual where they have him as short
00:41:11
as 5 foot and as tall as 5' 7 and I know that the information that we read at the
00:41:17
top of the hour was was different 5' 6 or 5' 7 but as it sits today most of the information that you find out there will
00:41:25
have him listed between five 5 foot and 5' 7 weight seems to be pretty spoton they seem to be pretty convinced about
00:41:31
the weight everywhere I've looked it's all very similar saying 125 to possibly 140 PBS now this particular website here
00:41:42
has the postmortem interval listed at a little bit longer than what we've reported so far which they have it
00:41:51
listed as 36 hours to possibly up to 7even days that he was killed before being found I'm going to go with I
00:41:59
really like what I was hearing from the coroner within that first week right that first week the coroner's words
00:42:06
always were we believe he was he was only there for a couple days or had been killed a couple days before he was found
00:42:14
by the two rabbit Hunters well and I'm not trying to be silly here but it'd be tough to give a exact height because he
00:42:22
is missing his his feet right and and we don't know because I don't think the corer I don't think they released this
00:42:30
information on where where did the uh severing of the feet happened did it happen at the ankle did it happen a
00:42:37
little bit higher we're not really for sure the the early information was the ankles but again that's not something
00:42:44
that's like repeated over and over again so when you see that and you read that you go okay well I'll add that to my
00:42:52
notes and hopefully I get confirmation of that later and you don't you just don't get get confirmation of it later
00:42:57
right well somebody knows something in either one of these cases and again I couldn't even fault an individual if you
00:43:07
knew something and maybe you knew more of how and why they died you might feel like you're going to put yourself in
00:43:15
danger yeah and while we're on the topic of misidentification we should also point
00:43:20
out that very early on in the case and I'm sure the I mean the the police hate that this didn't work out because it
00:43:27
appears that they had or received some good tip early on in the investigation the way that it's reported is it says
00:43:35
rumors but I think that they received a tip here and maybe the tip was in a form
00:43:40
of a rumor but they're saying the rumor was that the body was that of a Whitesville Kentucky man they do not
00:43:47
name the individual but they did you know when we have a situation where they're not releasing a whole lot of
00:43:54
information they are quick to come out and say we looked at that and it's simply not true it's absolutely not that
00:44:03
person is what they state in the papers so another case of where they may have or at least on the public level there
00:44:11
were rumors of misidentification that this guy was possibly this missing Whitesville Kentucky person of course
00:44:19
these all these cases are sad all these situations are very tragic that we discuss here in the garage it's all of
00:44:26
life and loss of a family member a loved one but this is a little kind of extra weird angle that you don't get in other
00:44:35
cases that we do have here in this case and it's well I'll I'll read it for you it's it's nice and short but um sad
00:44:45
nonetheless the headline here Captain is funeral held for nameless victim and it
00:44:50
says seven people paid their last respects to a man they didn't know saying quote we moralize one who we know
00:44:57
not this came from the chaplain that led the services for this unknown individual
00:45:04
was a short ceremony that was attended by detectives and members of law enforcement as well as members from the
00:45:10
local sheriff's department it was also attended by the coroner and representatives from the funeral home
00:45:17
that that agreed to host this service for this unknown victim yeah and it's just kind of sad you know you see these
00:45:25
these people that that went out of their way and had big hearts and heavy hearts
00:45:30
and went to this service for an individual that they have never known may never know in their lifetime it's
00:45:38
been 32 years and he's not been identified but kudos to those people that went and paid their respects to
00:45:44
memorialize this this victim this victim of a very brutal murder very violent murder yeah I I'll be lucky to have
00:45:52
seven individuals show up at at my funeral en I'm going to show up with one of those uh Michael Scott fake heads on
00:46:00
my right shoulder so that will count as two I'll sign the book is two different people well maybe three people will show
00:46:06
up well should we get into some of the possible theories because there's been a lot of theories that have been discussed
00:46:13
over the years in this Davies County case and of course A lot of these theories are going to mirror that of
00:46:21
some of the theories that were discussed in the man with no hands episode I'll read off the list to you and we kind of
00:46:27
can go through them one at a time there was a a theory that it was a Satanic ritual and this is weird because this is
00:46:37
is rumored to have been reported that way by law enforcement so I don't I don't want to just throw that out there
00:46:43
and everybody goes well we've heard that a bazillion times this might be something different it might be
00:46:47
something a little more concrete a hate crime a Revenge killing a mob killing a serial killer and then I wrote down one
00:46:57
of my own which I know you will share in this idea too probably here two perpetrators two or more perpetrators uh
00:47:04
as a theory and I base that simply off of the difficulty of getting the body from however they transported it to the
00:47:11
actual physical location where it was ultimately found but let's Circle back to the top of that list there and we'll
00:47:17
start off with the Satanic ritual that's very interesting to me but I also want to throw this out there too look at the
00:47:25
time frame look at the the time period that when this body was found and with the amputation with the removal of the
00:47:32
hands and feet it's not uncommon for people to speculate that this could be something satanic but also it's 1990
00:47:41
right this is just shortly before West Memphis 3 and remember what was going on in this country at that time where there
00:47:48
was a lot of satanic Panic there was a lot of that going on that started well goes in the 80s and and throughout a lot
00:47:56
of the 9s especially when you're talking about crimes that were to be committed by young adults or teenagers I don't
00:48:03
know that anybody's expecting or suspecting young adults or teenagers to be the perpetrator or perpetrators of
00:48:10
this crime but it's always been reported that that was an angle that police were
00:48:16
working or it that they had stated that at some point again I'm just going to go
00:48:21
back to the idea of the amputation mixed with the time frame mhm I could see a situation where the
00:48:29
sheriff's department or somebody is saying that and then really wishing maybe a year or two or 10 years later
00:48:36
that they had never said that because it was just a suspicion there was no actual
00:48:40
evidence of that right you would think that they would have found something at the scene to indicate Satanic ritual
00:48:48
which maybe they did I mean they've been tight lipped about this this case for 32
00:48:52
years yeah could you real quickly remind me of the exact wording that he said law
00:48:59
enforcement said about this this case is weird did they say weird or bizarre yeah
00:49:04
the one officer summed it up simply by saying it's bizarre the other officer stated that look this could be just
00:49:10
another brutal murder or it could be a part of something that's much more sophisticated yeah so again I find that
00:49:18
statement those terms I find that bizarre because to me it's like this is brutal this is this is ome this is
00:49:27
violent these are the terms that I would be using when somebody starts saying well this is bizarre or this is weird it
00:49:33
it starts making you question what else was found at the scene or what other markings are on that victim's body that
00:49:42
we don't know so they one thing that we've not reported yet that is a very interesting angle in this case is that
00:49:48
seminal fluid was found on the victim and it was it did not belong to the victim so the weird angle that that
00:49:57
provides us is this weird situation of two things and this kind of goes to the hate crime Theory so it's reported two
00:50:05
different ways everywhere you go that it's suspected that this individual had some type of homosexual
00:50:15
encounter just before being killed and then other places it's reported as that he was sexually assaulted and then
00:50:22
killed which two of course are two very very different things which also leans to the idea of a a hate crime right so
00:50:30
if he if he himself were homosexual then then people are going okay well maybe this was some type of hate crime but
00:50:37
then you have the complete opposite of that that would say maybe he was raped or sexually assaulted before being
00:50:43
killed so he didn't have a choice in the matter right so it's all very bizarre where you think that that that one
00:50:50
element right there if they are able to decipher if they are able to figure out out the very big difference between
00:50:57
those two if they have evidence strongly supporting one over the other I think that that that's stuff that should be
00:51:06
released that's stuff that should have been released 30 some years ago if they could determine it back then because
00:51:12
we're talking about a completely different type of perpetrator in that regard well this this is stuff of
00:51:19
nightmares I mean if you're not getting up and locking your door right now you don't have a door
00:51:26
that's the only reason you're doing that and normally when somebody would bring up some kind of Satanic ritual I'm
00:51:33
normally H you you're going to have to sell me pretty hard on that yeah but well cuz we've been we've been duped by
00:51:42
that before right maybe not us personally but at least the public has has been fooled by that dozens of times
00:51:49
yeah fool me once shame on you fool me fool me never again um is it possible that some wackadoos are
00:51:59
out there uh praying to some Golden Goat and uh and they decide that there's this
00:52:07
ritual where we're going to take a victim and rape them and torture them and then dispose of the body there's a
00:52:13
lot of wackos out there I mean we got almost 600 episodes to prove that point and the the thing with the sexual
00:52:21
assault with the the rape that also would lead me down another Avenue of potential serial killer right because
00:52:29
and I only am throwing that out there especially at that time yes and we're seeing where there's another victim
00:52:37
that's disposed of in a very similar way and around the same time period less than a year between the two so the
00:52:47
difficult thing here with these theories is that you don't have really a lot of information to point you in One
00:52:54
Direction specifically you have a few different good ideas to work off of with these different
00:52:59
theories but nothing that will point you in a very specific direction that kind of leaves us with the idea of two other
00:53:07
possibilities here on our theories list Captain one being a Revenge killing and the other being some type of mob killing
00:53:14
yeah maybe not mob but some kind of organized crime see this is what happens when you don't pay your your your debts
00:53:22
off for gambling or or whatever or you you did something to upset somebody in the mob that you did something against
00:53:29
one of their family members maybe maybe this you know we don't know that the Davies County John Doe was a good person
00:53:35
himself we've not identified him yet to figure out what this guy was up to before getting killed right and we
00:53:42
always hear in these stories oh the colonel he was the nicest guy in the world nobody would ever want to hurt him
00:53:48
lies I'm telling you lies the problem the problem here is we know in the Davies County John Doe case at least one
00:53:54
individ ual wanted to hurt him at least one individual wanted to hurt him too so
00:53:59
and we know there's at least one individual that wants to hurt you there's a line man at least one the with
00:54:05
the mob thing usually I'm quick to kind of look away from that but when I'm when
00:54:10
I'm comparing notes Here on the Davies County John do in the man with no hands I really feel like there might be a
00:54:17
little something more to that and and a little more weight that we should apply to that possible Theory because it
00:54:25
wouldn't be terribly far to transport somebody to Kentucky from the greater Chicago area and there's you know
00:54:33
there's mob ties to every big city in this country the other thing too I know that I think this was brought up when we
00:54:40
discuss the man with no hands there's people outside of Kentucky don't know a whole lot about this angle but there was
00:54:48
a a very vicious group that was active years ago decades ago in that general area and they went by they were called
00:54:57
the cornbread Mafia which sounds like a a funny name but yeah read up read up on
00:55:02
them and you won't be laughing very long but one angle that I do want to point out here this kind of reminds me
00:55:09
let's pretend here for a minute captain that these two cases are connected okay my guess here is if we went into the
00:55:20
history of other states to find unidentified individuals we might find cases that are somewhat similar to these
00:55:27
two kind of where I'm going with this is it makes me think of Richard klinsky and
00:55:33
I'm not saying that Richard klinsky killed either of these individuals what I'm saying simply is
00:55:39
that watch The Iceman tapes this is this is one of the documentaries that we discussed years ago you know every every
00:55:47
year or every so often we pick our favorite true crime documentaries and create those list and I think it was the
00:55:54
first first time that we discussed this Captain one of the documentaries on my list was the Iceman tapes and this the
00:56:02
Iceman tapes is originally from 1992 I believe right so of course he's locked up I'm not saying that he had any
00:56:09
involvement but the thing that you picked up on with Richard klinsky was he's a guy that he's working in
00:56:15
organized crime and he is the he is the Hitman well why is he the Hitman because
00:56:22
this is the type of dude that if somebody wasn't paying him to kill people he probably would be doing it for
00:56:28
fun right he's he is the psychopath in that group in that criminal element in that group he's the guy that they know
00:56:36
go to him because he doesn't have a problem offing these people and then the other thing too is he talks about how he
00:56:43
would dispose of these bodies and something very simple right keep it simple stupid one thing that he pointed
00:56:51
out there he's like look I use this method to I often use this method to kill an individual but I also used this
00:56:57
method over and over again to dispose of of the individuals well why did you continue to use that that method to
00:57:04
dispose of the individuals and he said he looked at the the interviewer like they had two heads like they're moreon
00:57:10
he says he looks at him Michael Scott because it worked it worked when I did it and it worked the first time when
00:57:18
they had trouble identifying my Victim or didn't find him for months or even years I just went okay next time off
00:57:25
somebody I'm going to use that same method because it works one of the things that I think about in both of
00:57:32
these cases maybe they're severing the hands not to get rid of that identifier but to make a statement
00:57:42
because back in the day if you stole something they would cut your hands off or cut a hand off or chop your fingers
00:57:50
off so maybe that act of of this crime is actually more to send a message to people yeah it's very interesting to me
00:58:02
and I think you might be on to something there Captain because we have other identifiers that were not they didn't go
00:58:09
to other measures to keep this person unidentified right with the man with no hands he's got extensive dental work
00:58:16
expensive extensive D dental work say that three times fast I will try somebody could have could have taken
00:58:23
that stuff removed those items to make it so he couldn't be identified remov the head if
00:58:31
you really if you were really dead set on on making these individuals not identified at all there are other
00:58:39
extremes that you could go to but whoever killed and then disposed of these individuals didn't go to those
00:58:49
other lengths for whatever reason they didn't take those other precautions if you will but they did remove the the
00:58:54
hands in both situations and the other thing too like I got to thinking about like well they went out of their way to
00:59:00
remove the feet of the Davies County John do but I don't ever remember a case of an individual being identified by
00:59:08
their feet right right I mean you're leaving his DNA CU obviously his whole body the rest of his body is there the
00:59:17
feet thing really makes me wonder what was up with the feet why go out of your way to remove the feet well if we go
00:59:23
back to the original IDE a that a lot of these steps were taken to prevent the identification of this victim well could
00:59:32
the foot for whatever reason one or both of the feet have some kind of identifier
00:59:36
maybe this individual didn't have normal looking feet maybe there was a tattoo on
00:59:42
one of the feet maybe you know you you use your imagination and you can start to see a situation where that might
00:59:50
become important but it doesn't appear to have been important in the man with no hands case that took place in 1989 if
01:00:00
you're a bing man and I I know you like to bet every now and then uh on the horse I like people say that uh if
01:00:07
you're a betting well I have you happen to be talking to a betting man so so I am a betting man but we won't say it's a
01:00:14
a problem it's only a problem when you lose if you're a betting man would you say that these again the two weeks in a
01:00:23
row it it's funny how this stuff works last week we're talking about the Boardman murder cases and if those were
01:00:30
connected uh similar time periods similar area similar similar victimology here the victimology seems different
01:00:40
but do you lean towards them being connected or or not connected I actually lean towards them being connected and
01:00:48
usually I and I didn't go into it that way right I didn't go into looking for reasons to connect these and I'm going
01:00:56
to say straight up too that I didn't find anything that that says to me 100% that they are in fact connected but it
01:01:03
just seems a little convenient a little too convenient to me that yeah the victimology is weird with the Davies
01:01:12
County John de we have so little information and again reported different ways that I don't believe that that
01:01:20
allows us to really hone in on one particular thing here to say that I think the victimology is similar or
01:01:29
dissimilar because with the man with no hands according to the vicap alert from the
01:01:36
FBI his approximate age is 25 well that certainly fits within the age range of our Davies County John Doe where we're
01:01:45
seeing the current information has him listed at age 25 to approximately 40 I have a difficult time with why that that
01:01:54
range is so that there's so so many years applied to how old this guy could possibly be
01:02:03
they're both found nude they're both found with no hands they're both found within a year of one another in the same
01:02:09
state of Kentucky and for me there's just too many similarities for me to to get past it right if again you're asking
01:02:20
me to wager on something we don't have a lot of information on I guess if I had to go gut feeling here I'm guessing that
01:02:27
they would be I would lean toward them being connected in some form and it doesn't have to be committed by the same
01:02:34
perpetrator especially if we're talking about um some type of mob hit or some type of criminal group you know I I had
01:02:44
really suspected a a drug connection with the man with no hands and then with the Davies County
01:02:50
John do I just feel like I don't know enough about who this person could could have been to even
01:02:57
hypothesize what led to this yeah if I had to go with my gut feeling um gut and butt feeling I would say connected it's
01:03:09
it's eight months between the discovery of two of these bodies and I know yes it's 140 mil away so a big distance
01:03:16
there but eight eight months is tough to shake I wouldn't lean so much of a mob hit but to me kind of seems serial
01:03:25
killer in the sense of well I put one victim here and then I and then I dump another victim somewhere else and I
01:03:36
think if we dove in deeper to that area probably let's say a 300 mile radius to see if there's any other similar
01:03:46
cases those in individuals might have already been identified but to see if there's
01:03:53
anything similar um severing of the hands or severing of the feet or the way in which the bodies were dumped with the
01:04:02
man with no hands case I know that a lot of the listeners got on the blog and stated on there that that one hypothesis
01:04:11
they would have is that maybe he was an undocumented worker someone that we just
01:04:17
don't have right information of and that's why he remains so difficult to identify to this
01:04:25
day his ethnic background would have been based off of I think this was parabon that came out with the man with
01:04:33
no hands but some agency has stated that he's probably Eastern European maybe Middle Eastern descent for the man with
01:04:45
no hands I've not seen any of that speculation or or information in the Davies County John Doe but where I can
01:04:52
offer a little bit of a little little light at the end of the tunnel for both of these cases is we know one
01:04:59
thing with the man with no hands obviously they have his DNA they're working that they're trying to figure
01:05:04
out if they can identify him using the DNA I seen that last year it was reported that the DNA do network was
01:05:13
actively working on the man with no hands case it was one of I think five or six that they were discussing on the
01:05:20
news at the time and he was one that they were actively looking into the basic report that they offered at that
01:05:28
time was that we are getting closer to identifying him we have not been able to get a match to an individual and
01:05:36
unfortunately in his case we've not been able to get a match that's close to an individual meaning they've not matched
01:05:41
up with a parent or a sibling they said that they're they're basically at the the speed bump of we can get we feel
01:05:51
like we're getting to distant cousin level with the man with no hands but nothing close enough that we have any
01:06:00
idea of of possibly identifying him or narrowing it down to a few individuals now with the Davies County
01:06:09
John do with our case for this week the light at the end of the tunnel with him is
01:06:15
twofold you have not just your victim DNA like we have in the man with no hands case right we have potential
01:06:23
suspect DNA and again that's why part of me wants to go can we clear this up if we
01:06:30
do know maybe they don't know and maybe that's why you don't want to release this information if you don't know it'
01:06:35
be irresponsible but if they do know if they had some way of determining this sexual assault versus
01:06:42
consensual well if especially if it's sexual assault then that changes everything for me because now that goes
01:06:48
from a possible you know friendship or Romance with this other DNA that they have with the Davies County or it's
01:06:58
suspect DNA and so that's the light at the end of the tunnel in the Davies case that
01:07:05
one we could identify this individual possibly we have the science to do it we're working on it we know that they're
01:07:11
actively working it because they misidentified him and then cleared it up so we know that it's been active at time
01:07:19
periods throughout the last 32 years it's a case that's still on the minds of Kentucky State Police they're probably
01:07:26
still doing work on it and so we could have a situation very soon where either they identify one the victim
01:07:35
himself or the suspect in his case and either way is a huge leap when they were when they were scratching the
01:07:47
ground looking for breadcrumbs before identifying this individual or the DNA that could lead to the suspect huge leap
01:07:54
huge break in the case either [Music] way there is a tip line a tip phone number
01:08:27
for the Kentucky State Police if anybody has any information in the Davies County
01:08:32
John Doe case or the Grant County John do case the one that we were referring to as the man with no hands you can use
01:08:40
this number for either of those cases and again this will take you to the Kentucky State Police the number is 1
01:08:48
1800222 5555 want to thank you so much for joining us here in the garage we just
01:08:54
like your smell we like your musk make sure you tell a friend we want their musk to be in the garage as well colel
01:09:01
do we have any recommended reading for the beautiful people this week this week and this is very fitting to this week's
01:09:07
case as well we are recommending a book called The Lost family how DNA testing is upending who we are author Libby
01:09:16
copelan does a deep dive into the subject and a deeply reported look at the rise of home genetic testing as well
01:09:25
as looking into genealogy Buffs the science of DNA and The Business of companies like ancestry and 23 and me
01:09:34
make sure you check out the lost family by Libby Copeland you can find that wonderful title and many more on our
01:09:40
website true Crim garage.com another thing you can find at the website is a link to off the Record that's our bonus
01:09:47
show we do case updates we get a little silly up here in the garage it's a great
01:09:53
time please join us it's $5 a month you get every show on Stitcher premium which
01:10:01
is tons of content for $5 a month you can find that at True Crime garage.com until next week be good be kind and
01:10:12
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