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around grab a chair grab a beer let's talk some true [Music] crime [Music] [Music]
00:04:28
oh Steven Paul Elliot Smith known simply as Elliot was born in Omaha Nebraska on
00:04:41
August 6th 1969 an only child his parents were Gary Smith a then student at the University
00:04:49
of Nebraska Medical Center and Bunny K barryman Elementary School music teacher seemingly Elliot followed his mother's
00:04:58
creative footsteps with a shared passion for music he went on to become a acclaimed singer
00:05:04
songwriter and a skillful instrumentalist Ellie was just 6 months old when his parents got divorced
00:05:11
following this his mother uprooted to Duncanville Texas with her infant son it was there where she met her new partner
00:05:19
Charlie Welsh and began what was reportedly an agonizing chapter in Smith's Young Life Elliot was said to
00:05:27
endure a turbulent relationship with the stepfather he claimed his childhood was
00:05:32
tainted by cruelty and sexual abuse his allegations have been denied by Welsh though Charlie is reference and Elliot's
00:05:41
songs including flowers for Charlie and no confidence man despite his hardship Elliot found a
00:05:49
positive outlet he started playing piano at the age of nine soon after he was introduced to the acoustic guitar a gift
00:05:57
from his biological father around this time Smith wrote fantasy original piano piece winning him a prize
00:06:05
in an Arts Festival at the age of 14 Elliot went to live with his father who was working as a psychiatrist in
00:06:13
Portland Oregon adolesence was a period where Smith found his artistic style he started to experiment with recording and
00:06:21
played clarinet in the high school band adding to his repertoire of instruments he too sang in the Bands
00:06:29
murder of crows and Stranger Than Fiction build as Steven Smith or Johnny panic but Elliot was venturing down a
00:06:38
darker path within a circle of friends drugs and alcohol were prevalent this Behavior was considered a coping
00:06:47
strategy a way to help navigate the inner demons of its youth after graduating from Lincoln High
00:06:55
School as a National Merit scholar Smith dropped the name Steven choosing instead
00:07:00
to be called Elliott he attended Hampshire College in Elmhurst mass in 1991 he graduated with a degree in
00:07:09
philosophy and political science it was in Hampshire that Elliott formed the band Heat
00:07:15
Miser the band made three albums before being signed to Virgin records and releasing a final album in
00:07:23
1996 that same year Elliot moved to Brooklyn New York as an artist Elliot's known for his soft almost whispered
00:07:31
vocals and complex yet simple Melodies fans of his work have praise His intensely personal lyrics though
00:07:40
there are themes of sadness anger and self-destruction throughout these are layered with a Bare Bones vulnerability
00:07:47
the writing can be interpreted as both relatable and cryptic in nature in 1997 Elliot would be
00:07:56
approached by director Gus VanZant van an wanted Elliott to be a part of the soundtrack for the upcoming movie
00:08:03
Goodwill Hunting the soundtrack featured two songs from the albums Roman candle and either or with the third song Miss
00:08:13
Misery following the film's outright success Elliot received a nomination for Academy Award for Miss Misery despite
00:08:23
being an all of the Oscar's experience he was quoted to have described the event as real and
00:08:31
otherworldly in the background Elliot was believed to be struggling with heavy drinking and the use of
00:08:39
anti-depressants major label DreamWorks signed Elliot in 1998 the album EXO was released the most
00:08:48
profitable accomplishment of his career sadly it was at this point Elliott's mental well-being began to
00:08:56
decline he spoke openly of suicide and reportedly made at least one serious attempt to end his own life when highly
00:09:05
intoxicated Elliot plan to jump to his death his fall was broken by a tree which left him injured but
00:09:13
alive in the early 2000s Elliot's mental health became a serious concern he was likely
00:09:21
experienced paranoia and delusions adamant that a vehicle was following his every move and that his label DreamWorks
00:09:30
was plotting against him breaking into his house and stealing songs from his computer it's noted that Elliot may have
00:09:39
gone days without eating or sleeping and plans to produce a follow-up album to XO
00:09:46
were dissolved reports state that Elliot complained about the intrusion of his personal life as well as poor promotion
00:09:55
of his previous work he apparently begged the label to renounce all ties therefore ending his contract or else he
00:10:04
threatened to take his own life in 2001 Elliot was said to be smoking up to $1,500 of heroin and crack cocaine daily
00:10:16
and may have tried to overdose as a result of his suicidal State his disheveled appearance was unrecognizable
00:10:24
during the occasional performances he managed to attend he was known to exhibit alarming
00:10:30
signs of awkwardness and memory loss to the point of forgetting song lyrics in late 2002 Elliot and his girlfriend
00:10:40
Jennifer Sheba were involved in an altercation with the Los Angeles Police Department outside a music
00:10:48
concert allegedly Elliot was trying to defend a man who was being harassed by the officers in question this resulted
00:10:55
in a brawl and Elliot being arrested concerned over Elliott's appearance emerged he was described as looking out
00:11:04
of control after Elliott's arrest things were looking more promising in January and February of
00:11:24
2003 he achieved two sellout acoustic shows at the Henry fond the theater in Hollywood outwardly it appeared he was
00:11:33
aiming to regain his Integrity as a performer it's been speculated that Elliot had attempted rehab several times
00:11:41
to no avail I couldn't do the first step he stated I couldn't say what you're supposed to say and mean
00:11:52
it after his 34th birthday though Elliott cut out alcohol and ended his long-term term use of psychiatric
00:12:00
medication he also gave up caffeine red meat and refined sugar hopeful of recovery after many years of unease he
00:12:09
began to reemerge himself into recording exploring different styles and recording
00:12:15
techniques Elliot played red Fest at the University of Utah on September 19th 2003 his closing song was the Beatles
00:12:26
long long long this would be Elliott's final performance on October 21st 2003 paramedics were called to Elliott's home
00:12:49
in Echo Park California his girlfriend Jennifer who shared the home with Elliot made the
00:12:56
call Elliot was found with two stab wounds to the chest and he could not be revived at 1:36 p.m. Elliot Smith was
00:13:08
pronounced dead in Jennifer's account following an argument with Elliot she took a shower
00:13:17
locking the bathroom door hearing an unnerving scream she opened the door to find Elliot standing
00:13:25
with a knife in his chest on impulse she pulled the knife out causing him to collapse she promptly called 911 at 1218
00:13:37
p.m. a suicide note written on a Post-It was rumored to be nearby the note read I'm
00:13:48
sorry love Elliott God forgive me was this the result of Elliott's inner pain an act that he's been threatening
00:14:03
for a long time or is there something more to the story suicide or homicide there are unanswered questions
00:14:14
and Mysteries surrounding the events of October 21st 2003 what really happened to elot
00:14:27
Smith [Music] all right there's a lot to unpack here and the question becomes suicide or
00:14:58
homicide and because of the inconclusive autopsy ruling the Los Angeles Police Department's investigation remains open
00:15:07
on this case so even though most people say it's a suicide why would the investigation
00:15:15
remain open yeah this is a tricky one because we have a situation here where there seems to be some kind of argument
00:15:23
and it seems like it was a big argument yeah um and then later what we have is we have one man dead and then the only
00:15:32
person that is there to tell us what could have happened or what led to this individual's death is somebody that you
00:15:40
might suspect could have a reason for killing this man so it's it's very difficult when you only have this one
00:15:48
let's call it eyewitness to to talk to um you have to go off of what their statements are and based off of the
00:15:57
scientific evidence that's out there now his girlfriend Jennifer Sheba what she claims is that they were in an argument
00:16:05
for several hours now this is backed up by neighbors hearing yelling hearing door slam hearing cabinet slam so that
00:16:15
part of the story we could believe what Jennifer is saying because it's backed up by other Witnesses mhm so there are
00:16:24
many points of speculation and many things that point to suicide or homicide so we want to dive
00:16:31
into each one of those points the first one being that there is no hesitation wounds so what that means is normally
00:16:41
when somebody commits suicide by knife which is a very small percent of all suicides normally and they actually put
00:16:50
this in the same category a stabbing or cutting like somebody cutting their wrist mhm they put this in the same
00:16:57
category that that is still a very small percentage of all suicides now normally
00:17:04
when somebody stabs thems there's hesitation wounds right meaning there's a couple marks around the actual area
00:17:12
where they stab Elliot was actually stabbed twice which is also unusual mhm now here's where it gets a little
00:17:21
convoluted because the hesitation wounds could actually have been destroyed by him actually stabbing himself so there
00:17:30
could have been hesitation wounds but because he was stabbed twice those could have got rid of the evidence of the
00:17:37
hesitation wounds so these two stab wounds that that led to his death these are deep stab wounds so what you're
00:17:45
saying is there could have been a one or two quick little stab marks that that you cannot detect now because these two
00:17:53
are so big yeah and when I originally heard of Elliot Smith suicide I remember hearing that the
00:18:03
rumor was cuz I was a big Goodwill Hunting fan and to know Elliot through that movie basically that's how I knew
00:18:12
of his music I remember the rumor was that Elliot Smith oh that super depressed singer songwriter guy yes he took his
00:18:21
own life how did he take his own life he stabbed himself in the heart with a spoon that was the rumor that I heard
00:18:29
for years and then I started thinking well maybe it wasn't the doll end the spoon it would been the handle of the
00:18:35
spoon but now having the time to investigate it you go okay he stabbed himself twice in the chest or that's
00:18:43
what the speculation is um so the other strange thing about there being no hesitation marks is the majority of the
00:18:53
people that actually stab themselves do so not through clothing so if they have a shirt on they'll lift the shirt up or
00:19:03
unbutton the shirt and so when they go to stab themselves it is knife through skin and that is it not the case and
00:19:12
Elliot Smith's death he stabs himself through the shirt and so you're going to stab yourself twice through the shirt
00:19:21
another thing that points more towards homicide than suicide well and some people might be thinking well that's a
00:19:28
crazy thing to say stabbing through a shirt is very uncommon but straight from the autopsy report here here's what we
00:19:37
have from their own words is there are several aspects of the circumstances that are atypical of
00:19:48
suicide and raise the possibility of homicide these include the absence of hesitation wounds stabbing through
00:19:55
clothing and the presence of small in sized wounds on the right arm and left hand possible defensive wounds so he was
00:20:04
stabbed with a kitchen knife with a regular one um you know just a blade on one side one sharp side kitchen knife
00:20:12
all right so the first point the no hesitation wounds I'm going to say we don't know if they were there or not so
00:20:20
to me that doesn't Point either way to Suicide or homicide yeah oh yeah I agree 100% the other thing here too is I could
00:20:29
see a situation where there was there was never going to be any hesitation wounds right you know
00:20:37
if we have if we have this guy let's say he's just angered out of his mind MH we
00:20:43
know they're in an argument we know they're in an argument he picks up what's readily available a kitchen knife
00:20:49
from his kitchen and boom one in and boom another one so according to the coroner report to the autopsy right uh
00:20:59
the cause of death is stab wounds to the chest each Stab Wound is considered fatal per se you know meaning if this
00:21:06
were to be untreated for any length of time this guy's going to die right and they say that um the second wound
00:21:15
appears to have been deeper than the first because they're saying that there is a periphera wound to the heart
00:21:21
associated with Stab Wound number two wow and the situation that gets difficult here is like you said the
00:21:30
there they cannot find any hesitation wounds on this individual so I'm with you it it could go either way when you
00:21:38
when there is a an offender stabbing a victim you typically will not see any hesitation wounds because they are
00:21:46
attacking the individual right so on the second Point him stabbing himself through a
00:21:54
shirt to me that doesn't seem super likely not impossible obviously but you know the coordinator is even saying hey
00:22:03
this is this is something that we look at this leads more to the side of homicide so i' go okay no no hesitation
00:22:12
marks I don't know what that means so we can lean on the side of suicide there but with the stabbing through the shirt
00:22:20
I'd go to me that leans homicide yeah and that's exactly what they are saying in their report in the
00:22:27
medical report that this is one of the reasons to point toward homicide rather than suicide so I'll agree with that as
00:22:35
well uh the difficult thing here is the shirt is described as a black T-shirt again I could see a situation
00:22:42
this guy's so angered out of his mind that there's there's no cooling down going on for this guy yeah I agree that
00:22:50
it could be pick up pick up the readily available knife through the T-shirt you know taking off the shirt may have
00:22:56
provided a cooling down down period to go wait a second what am I doing what am I what what's going on here right and
00:23:02
that's I think so we both agree that we'll lean towards homicide on that point yeah but but but it's not
00:23:09
impossible not impossible but I'm going to agree with the expert opinion here yeah the other one too is that there's
00:23:17
actually um bone breakage or or damage to the bone with the stabbings and there's two again this is difficult
00:23:27
because it's not situation where he's home by himself and and he's just depressed and decided that's it he's in
00:23:35
an argument but most of the time when they see a suicide by stabbing or cutting or cutting there is they're not
00:23:43
hitting bone well a lot of that time I'm I'm guessing from The Cutting situation
00:23:47
would be cutting at the wrist and and you're not going to hit bone there likely I think here which would make the
00:23:54
percentage way lower much much lower and I think that the situation here is very
00:23:59
difficult to really get a grasp on what the percentage would be here because of the location of the stab wounds so the
00:24:07
location of the stab wounds it would be very difficult not to hit or break bone right in that location so but I do want
00:24:16
to point out one thing while we're you know talking EXA about these stab wounds is they do point out in the autopsy
00:24:25
report that the stab wounds are cons consistent with self-infliction okay so what they mean
00:24:31
by that is the angle of these stab wounds it would not have been impossible for him to have
00:24:38
done this himself right so it it's not we're not talking about aami Malik type autopsy report where there's a a gunshot
00:24:48
wound to somebody you know in their back or the back of the head in in a weird location this is a location these two
00:24:55
stab wounds are right to the chest to the chest cab cavity and he could have done this you know from this angle he
00:25:02
could have done this himself or it could be also consistent with somebody lunging
00:25:08
at him with a knife well and then you have the angle of the blade mhm and the rumor that I heard is that the angle
00:25:15
that the blade was at is more consistent with homicide than suicide but with it being such a small blade I wonder if
00:25:26
that even matters or if that should be something that we even take into play that is too difficult for me to get
00:25:34
a grasp on from looking at the autopsy report I cannot figure out if these are vertical or horizontal right wounds um
00:25:45
the there is a diagram on there now people can find portions I couldn't find the entire autopsy report but you can
00:25:53
find portions of this and it looks to me judging by reports that read in the past
00:25:59
and what I can see on the the papers I have here my guess is that this autopsy report is probably anywhere from 14 to
00:26:10
21 pages long wow but I could find five pages of of the actual autopsy report so
00:26:19
the one page that I have that has the diagram of of his body and where they're marking out the wounds
00:26:26
it's the two wounds that they have here it looks like they're indicating that these would be vertical stab wounds but
00:26:33
I can't say 100% because of the way that this is drawn out and the the notes that
00:26:39
were taken on this diagram are all written in Shand yeah and so it's it's difficult for me to say what what the
00:26:48
medical examiner was um was trying to convey here in this diagram because you know for her
00:26:58
M it's it's very very likely especially if she she determines that it's suicide it's a document that is only necessary
00:27:06
for her so it's not like it has to be typed out um they would type these out typically and more detail right but that
00:27:15
page is missing from what I could find so I wonder if that has something to do with the fact that they haven't closed
00:27:21
the investigation or it might just be the website where I got this from is not okay so it's not like a typical website
00:27:30
where you would go hunting for autopsy reports they this just might be the portion that they decided to release on
00:27:38
their website if that makes sense right right so they're they're taking a bit of
00:27:43
creative control here and decided look a lot of this is is medical mumbo jumbo uh
00:27:51
and it won't be of interest to our readers so we will we will present the the pages that are of most interest or
00:27:59
what we think that they will find most interest interest in but like you were saying if if in fact these are vertical
00:28:10
wounds I mean trying to make the motion myself with my right hand or left hand that does make it a little more
00:28:18
difficult I could I could see if they were horizontal wounds it being easier to stab myself in the chest and and give
00:28:26
more Force thrust right and I think unless you're coming across the chest like as if you're like beating your
00:28:34
chest mhm I could see that being more vertical and but to your point is that if these are in fact vertical wounds
00:28:43
that would be more consistent with a homicide with somebody you know lunging forward and attacking
00:28:51
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00:31:10
today all right back to the open investigation of Elliot Smith suicide or homicide the other thing that is strange
00:31:22
here is like you said there's defensive wounds and right when you hear the term defensive wounds you go
00:31:29
aha yeah aha got him but these defensive wounds it's not that simple there's not a lot of
00:31:38
defensive wounds on the hands where you would think somebody that was trying to defend themselves would be marked up
00:31:47
more again though it's also hard to figure out because it's not like we have the knife in front of us and if it's
00:31:55
just like a more of a a dull kitchen knife you might not see as many defensive wounds as you would with like
00:32:04
a sharp butcher knife mhm yeah and they're not saying for certain that these are in fact defensive wounds
00:32:11
because if they were 100% on that they're going to go okay this is not only an undetermined death right this is a
00:32:19
homicide this is a homicide and we we need to look at this or further investigate it into to the point to
00:32:24
where we can say it's not a homicide so the thing with these two wounds um and it may be more than two but it says the
00:32:33
presence of a small insed wounds on the right arm and left hand mhm and then they say possible defensive wounds so I
00:32:44
could see you know obviously with the hand you the in a lot of times when there are attacks you see several cuts
00:32:51
to the hands where the person is able to fend off the attacker for a decent amount of time until till they end up
00:32:58
they end up being attacked to the point of their death but I don't I don't think
00:33:04
I fully understand the the wound to the right arm yeah it's it's more like towards the chest area right or towards
00:33:11
the shoulder area am I right about that or you could be from from this report though again
00:33:19
this is in shorthand so I don't know what this this Mark is indicating here on the right arm it looks like it could
00:33:27
more than halfway up the arm right and this is where it gets strange for me too because we have reports of them slamming
00:33:36
doors and slamming cabinets and we all know one of our friends that have got in an argument and punch something you know
00:33:44
whether it was a refrigerator or a door or and so I wondered is it possible that
00:33:50
Elliot was upset and tried to punch something or and and and maybe there's no evidence of him I I once punched a
00:33:59
skillet it was the dumbest thought but at the time you you're just in an argument you're
00:34:06
upset punch you you normally punch something that you shouldn't punch and so I just wondered if any of these
00:34:13
wounds to the hand would be something that would happen from from that the way that it's described sounds almost like a
00:34:22
some form of cut though right which would go to the thought of defensive wound because of the the knife being the
00:34:30
what ended up killing Elliot Smith I think the the difficult thing here is I we don't have Jennifer I don't
00:34:39
know anything about his girlfriend right I don't know where they line up sizewise
00:34:46
compared to one another if well he was bigger than her but but not you know right and what what I'm getting at here
00:34:53
is that I think that we I feel like I would see a situation if this was a homicide that there would be many more
00:35:01
defensive wounds I agree to Elliot Smith because I think he would have been able
00:35:06
to fight her off or fend her off for a good amount of time and keep in mind we know let's let's pretend he was attacked
00:35:15
okay let's pretend for a moment this was a homicide we know that he would have been attacked straight on face to face
00:35:22
right cuz that's where the wounds came from yeah it's it's not like we have a situation where we can think that he
00:35:29
would have been attacked by from behind and it was a bit of a sneak attack or anything like that this would be a
00:35:35
situation where he would be able to defend himself for a decent amount of time and I think for me the small amount
00:35:42
of speculative defensive wounds points to maybe those are either self-inflicted or caused from something
00:35:51
else well and she claims that you know they're arguing for hours and hours and finally she's like this is
00:35:57
nuts right I'm going I'm going to take a shower and I'm going to get away and then once she goes in he's now telling
00:36:05
her to come out you know basically hey if you don't come out you know I'm going to kill myself he's threatening to kill
00:36:11
himself according to her right and again we don't know her but we know his life and somebody that has talked about
00:36:22
suicide as openly as he did for one but too we've seen it time and time again where he would threaten this hey you
00:36:30
don't want me you don't want to let me out of my record contract mhm I'll kill myself MH that's on record so at least
00:36:37
we can say hey there is some evidence that backs up what Jennifer is saying I go to the
00:36:43
bathroom uh we're in this argument and then it becomes you know come out or I'm going to kill myself now she says she's
00:36:51
only in there like 5 to 10 minutes for this 5 to 10 minutes is Elliot walking around with the knife you
00:36:58
know does he you know accidentally cut himself in the hand or does he does he purposely do it um who knows we we won't
00:37:08
we just don't know but I believe that part of her story because we have evidence to back that up so it would be
00:37:16
interesting to know which side the blade was on the sharp side of the knife per his wounds and I say that because with
00:37:28
with where this wound is on the uh arm right I I could see that that maybe because if he did stab himself he
00:37:40
stabbed himself twice in the chest at least right and so we know the knife was removed from the body and then entered
00:37:46
the body again I almost wonder if the the wound to the hand or to the arm if it's a possibility depending on what
00:37:55
side the blade was on could that have been from the knife being removed and the other thing we should keep in mind
00:38:02
too is she Jennifer when she finds Elliott he's still awake and according to her report is standing at the time
00:38:14
that she finds him she removes the knife from his chest yeah so let's unpack this
00:38:20
this part of the story a little bit more well real real quick here but just before before before I forget this
00:38:26
thought completely my where I'm going with this too is could this have been could he have put his hand to his
00:38:34
chest grasping at the pain and she removes a knife and then that that knife upon that removal could cause the wound
00:38:42
to the hand there's ways that these could be right these wounds could have occurred without them being intentional
00:38:48
by him or her well yeah and part of that story is that she pulls the knife from him he
00:38:55
collapses look at the the the one chest wound or the shoulder wound whatever we're calling it is it possible when she
00:39:02
pulls the knife out that he falls into the knife so because he does collapse so that's a possibility to explain away
00:39:11
some of those what's very difficult is Jennifer was trained extensively in first aid and so
00:39:20
she would have known that you do not pull the knife out you you just add pressure you call 911 you add pressure
00:39:29
you do not take the knife out because sometimes pulling the knife out causes more damage than it does going in there
00:39:38
are some people that she has worked with that have came forward and said hey I went to the classes with her she knew
00:39:45
she knew better but then on the flip side the argument becomes yes that's when you're in a
00:39:53
controlled environment there's no Panic there's no blood you know she comes out of the
00:40:00
bathroom because she hears this agonizing scream he turns around there's a knife
00:40:06
in him she pulls it out now people that are going to say hey this is homicide well what a great way to cover
00:40:15
it up oh he stabbed himself or I stabbed him I'll just tell everybody I pulled the knife out M that explains why my
00:40:25
fingerprints are on this knife yeah that explains why my hands are bloody when you when the authorities show up right
00:40:34
and so it's kind of weird to me that people that she worked with would come forward and say hey we took these
00:40:42
classes together she knows better so to me that part it's again it's tough It's that gray area because there's a part of
00:40:52
me that goes yes she knew what to do in class but you've been in a heated argument with somebody that you love or
00:41:01
somebody that you live with somebody you're connected with somebody that has had a lot of
00:41:07
issues and and so then you freak out and you pull out a knife you do something you're
00:41:15
not supposed to do but she did call 911 yeah so the the words of the medical examiner are this Additionally the
00:41:24
girlfriend's reported removal of the knife and subsequent refusal to speak with detectives are all of concern so
00:41:33
this is not our opinion that the removal of the knife is a concern it's the opinion of Los Angeles County right now
00:41:42
I did I did find something sorry because I'm I'm reading as we are doing this because I was looking for more
00:41:50
information on these other what we were talking about just before the possible defensive wounds well we also o wanted
00:41:56
to cover this a little different we want to have it be more of like a off the Record just kind of a open discussion
00:42:03
Captain wanted me going into this blind let's say yeah uh with very little information or knowledge about the case
00:42:09
so according to the body examination from Los Angeles County a small slight laceration is noted to the palm of the
00:42:19
left and right hand and another slight laceration is noted under the upper right arm as well so under the upper
00:42:28
right arm that's a little that's away from the heart so that that's likely not caused
00:42:35
by what I thought of possibly removing the knife after the first stab and then stabbing myself again but the the thing
00:42:43
that's tricky here is but if she removed the knife and he collaps forward the knife could have hit him under the right
00:42:51
arm the small slight laceration is noted to the palm of the left and right hand which is
00:42:59
possible if he's using both hands to stab himself mhm it could have slipped on the second stabbing yeah so
00:43:09
that that's a possibility but again it's strange but also consistent with me putting my hands up trying to stop an
00:43:15
attack but I would expect there where they say small slight laceration if I've put my hands up and in a way to to stop
00:43:24
someone from attacking me and I'm hitting the Palm with with that knife I'm expecting to see there's going
00:43:31
to be Force there's going to be power behind that blade and I would expect there to be these to be deep wounds to
00:43:39
the Palms I mean you could almost Envision a scenario where he's picking up a knife and test it real quick on one
00:43:46
hand right cuz you I mean if if he's determined to do this he's going to grab a sharp knife and like you said the the
00:43:55
the other hand could have simply been from slippage from now we have we have blood entered into the equation we got a
00:44:02
slippery situation his hand could have slipped for the second Stab Wound and mind you we do
00:44:09
know that based off of the the how deep these two wounds are that very likely the second Stab Wound was with more
00:44:20
power with more Force which is strange to me because to me that leans more homicide
00:44:26
than suicide because you would think after the first stab he would be weakened he'd be
00:44:32
weakened but again adrenaline I mean you know yeah you you it's you know it's such
00:44:42
a what's also sad about this is here's a guy that went through all this stuff and
00:44:48
obviously had some Trauma from his younger days and wrestling with with a lot of
00:44:56
stuff but seemed like he was tur turning a corner and even afterwards his girlfriend said it
00:45:04
didn't make any sense because he was so healthy that this was probably the healthiest he had been since the time
00:45:11
she had known him right but that doesn't mean that he didn't relapse because you
00:45:17
know I think with depression or at least everybody deals with depression differently but I've always with friends
00:45:24
or family members that don't really understand depression or or or or you know you know I've had people tell me
00:45:32
I've been depressed a couple times but I don't understand a a daily depression or
00:45:38
or you just live with depression throughout your life well to me it's very similar to like alcoholism or
00:45:45
something where it's like you wake up and you need to do certain things every day to kind of keep yourself uh above
00:45:52
that low level and and so so is it possible that he was eating better and exercising and and staying away from
00:46:01
drugs and and all that kind of stuff and then he just but he still had a relapse
00:46:06
of things aren't going so well today and we just happen to get an argument and that just pushes him over the edge well
00:46:15
so we have a couple things here and this is from Jennifer's statements we said that you know according to the report
00:46:22
that her refusal to speak with detectives is of concern which should be but in her statement what she stated to
00:46:30
either law enforcement or to the medical examiner I believe this would be to law
00:46:36
enforcement is that Jennifer stated that the deant has suffered from depression all of his life
00:46:44
he had a history of multiple narcotics addiction heroin crack and alcohol abuse although he had been clean for over one
00:46:54
year he engaged in self-mutilating behavior and would burn himself with cigarettes he has a history of one
00:47:02
possible suicide attempt but they go on to say that it's unknown details or time
00:47:09
frame or circumstances and has a consistent history of verbal suicide threats right
00:47:18
uh the decedent sought treatment for his depression from several psychiatrists and was being treated with multiple
00:47:26
prescription drugs and according to the toxicology report the only substances they found in his system at the time of
00:47:34
his death were all prescribed medications to these are therapeutic medications or or or or that's what
00:47:42
they're right prescribed for there's no traces of illegal substances or alcohol mhm because what's not clear is we go
00:47:51
hey these these medications were prescribed what I would like to know is when when would they prescribe and not
00:47:59
just saying like I'm talking about when was the initial hey we're going to put you on X drug to help you with
00:48:06
depression was that 6 weeks ago was that he's been on it for a year because sometimes they have reverse effects and
00:48:15
I've had friends that have had a mild case of depression never having suicidal thoughts and then getting on
00:48:24
anti-depressants instead of it working now they have Suicidal Thoughts mhm and so again I wonder is this some were they
00:48:33
trying something out cuz sometimes it takes weeks and weeks for these to take effect in a good way or a negative way
00:48:41
so that could be a a possible um reason why this person that was now clean and get in their stuff
00:48:51
together and the healthiest quote unquote he's been since Jennifer knew him that he would be in the state that
00:48:58
he would want to stab himself not once but twice well and medications are such a difficult thing and and I do not I do
00:49:08
not care for doctors that just kind of willy-nilly prescribe things to people I know that that it seems like the medical
00:49:16
profession that people are getting better about that doctors are getting more strict about that and policing
00:49:22
themselves as well their patient right but that's what happens when law happen yeah but I I can recall two situations
00:49:30
for me once I was prescribed Ridin and I was on it for several months it made me
00:49:38
incredibly like I can't even explain how depressed I was right and that's the only I don't know 100% that it came from
00:49:46
the Ridin but that was the only thing that was different in my life at that time right and so I you know finally got
00:49:55
smart and quit taking it and then another situation I had where I was going through some U anxiety stuff and
00:50:02
asked my doctor for to prescribe something and I cannot recall the name of what I was prescribed but I took it
00:50:09
on a Sunday and this was like a narcotic though this was one of those deals where
00:50:14
you get the prescription and it has to have like the stamp like the it's written on special paper and uh so I got
00:50:21
this thing and I called my doctor on Monday uh the day after I took one and I said we got to we got to get some other
00:50:33
kind of prescription here and she said what's the problem I said I took one of these and I felt like I shotgun eight
00:50:40
beers like I was I was effed up like I mean I was he was effed was I was effed in the F right so the the medication
00:50:50
left in the a a difficult thing but according to the autopsy report and according to statements from his
00:50:56
girlfriend Jennifer he was clean for over a year now she stated in this report too that she knew him for four
00:51:04
years yeah and that they were only together for one year and they were living together at the time I wonder is
00:51:11
this a situation where maybe they liked each other and she's like look dude you're you're on some hardcore drugs
00:51:18
right clean your [ __ ] up and we might be able to have a relationship yeah I mean or this is you
00:51:25
know somebody she admired and went you know he's really talented but that doesn't mean you want to be in a
00:51:30
relationship with a talent talented drug addict cuz that's what he was yeah and as you said Jennifer pulled the knife
00:51:39
out of the decedent's chest and saw two cuts on his chest I find that a strange statement a little bit strange that she
00:51:47
he's wearing a black T-shirt we can assume there's quite a bit of blood involved I don't know how the shirt
00:51:52
would have been tore from those from those two two uh stab wounds right but I think to visibly and to immediately
00:52:02
notice two wounds seems a little strange to me well right but let's okay let's unack this a little bit because she he
00:52:09
did collapse right yes so it's one of those things where it's like she goes well I pulled the knife out then I saw
00:52:15
these two stab wounds he walks away from her after she pulls out the knife and then collapses collapses but but then at
00:52:23
some point she calls 911 and she she then goes over and tries to help him right she she called 911 immediately
00:52:30
according to her statement and performed citizen CPR and first aid with operator
00:52:35
assistance until paramedics arrived right and so on the 911 call we'd have at least uh evidence of that or
00:52:45
evidence of her faking that yeah cuz we have seen situations where people were like no he couldn't have killed his wife
00:52:52
he clearly performed CPR on her you can hear it on the 911 call and then scientifically they determine later that
00:53:00
the the husband faked you know just pretended to be doing the chest compressions or any form of C but again
00:53:07
when she goes over calls 911 and maybe she saw the two stabo then just making the statement that you saw two stab wons
00:53:16
they're claiming that she's saying it right away I pull the knife I see the two stab wounds according to their
00:53:23
statement according to their statement what I'm saying as though as you know before the paramedics get there if she
00:53:29
noticed that there was two stab wounds I want to think that was too odd right because we do know that she I if if
00:53:36
she's to be believed she was performing CPR on him at some point would have noticed if she didn't notice them
00:53:42
immediately she would have definitely noticed the two stab wounds then I would guess yeah and and so then the
00:53:48
paramedics come and then they take him to the hospital and he's yeah he he he's alive at this time he's not awake he
00:53:56
can't speak to anybody but he technically passes away at the hospital again I think this points more toward
00:54:03
suicide because somebody that has this knowledge quote unquote this knowledge of first
00:54:10
aid if somebody was going to commit homicide and try to cover it up why don't you wait a little bit
00:54:20
longer to call 911 yeah yeah and so so it's you know because again when you hear stories I mean the first story that
00:54:31
I heard was he stabbed himself with a spoon I remember thinking at the time cuz I was pretty
00:54:39
young and and being an artist or or trying to be an artist thinking what a artsy way to go the guy stabbed himself
00:54:50
with a spoon and then you come to find out it was not well that's like the telep game you know what I mean it get
00:54:57
or or some guy who goes fishing the fish gets bigger every time he tells the story yeah well that's also that's also
00:55:02
like fandom though right like yeah fans are going and and rightfully so this was
00:55:08
a very talented individual and you can see a situation where where fans are going he was not a
00:55:16
regular man he can't have regular means of death right right even though he threatened suicide multiple times he
00:55:23
would never have taken his own life I and if he did it would have been with a spoon or something something dramatic
00:55:30
yeah although this certainly in itself let's say let's let's pretend it is 100% suicide yeah this is very dramatic a
00:55:42
very dramatic fashion so but but again I think some of that is maybe not so much
00:55:48
dramatic as it is adrenaline and impulsive yeah and very impulsive and I and I think somebody that strugg L
00:55:56
obviously he's impulsive I mean he was a crackhead at one point so I think that is evidence of impulsivity and so you
00:56:07
have a situation where he can't control this he's had a hard time controlling himself okay now I can control it by
00:56:15
taking my life or or you know and and look for all we know he was going I'm I'm going to do it I'm going to stab
00:56:24
myself and she could have said go ahead go ahead and stab yourself and a lot of people would go well then she's
00:56:33
responsible on some level mhm I would argue that this is probably not the first argument they had and I'd also
00:56:40
probably argue this is probably not the first time that they were an argument that he probably threatened to kill
00:56:46
himself he seems like somebody I mean if you're threatening to kill yourself to your record
00:56:53
label how many other people or have you tried to use that right and one thing I do want to clear up too make sure that
00:57:00
we're clear on this is in her statement where she says so in in the County of Los Angeles in their investigators
00:57:10
narrative what they're saying here is he has a history of one possible suicide attempt but they go on to say unknown
00:57:19
details unknown time frame unknown circumstances that's because this is just simply her
00:57:25
Jennifer saying yeah I I think he attempted suicide on one other occasion but she's unable to provide any details
00:57:34
of such so they're they're being very clear with their statement of that is that they're not definitively saying
00:57:40
that he has a history of suicide attempts right again and it could be some fandom
00:57:46
but the the rumor for the longest time was that he tried to kill himself and a in a tree broke the fall which left him
00:57:54
injured but he wasn't dead M and then there was also reports that he actually ODed multiple times on drugs and then
00:58:01
that becomes did he just OD because he was using heroin and using he try to OD or or was it on purpose so when you have
00:58:08
somebody that ODed multiple times then you go okay well- which one is it and then you could also make an argument
00:58:17
that how much do you value your your life if you're constantly using these drugs that can possibly kill you mhm
00:58:24
every time that you use them this this is a difficult one for me because I I've I just always heard these
00:58:32
rumors and this was one that was actually brought up by listeners several times and it would be random it just be
00:58:42
and it wasn't multiple it was never multiple times it was never like I got an email that said check out Elliot
00:58:48
Smith suicide and and let me know what you think I think there was something more
00:58:54
there well again first looking at it you start going suicide homicide well I think LAPD has it right right now just
00:59:05
open because they don't know for sure yeah and I think they're leaving that open in hopes that if it was homicide
00:59:15
that maybe um Jennifer will say something maybe she'll slip up and tell somebody something and then that is will
00:59:25
lead them down to the charging her with something mhm I don't think that's going
00:59:31
to happen um and I don't know if this case will ever get close just because there's so many things that point to
00:59:39
homicide other you know rather than suicide but I think the suicide note for me and I think that's the the last point
00:59:50
but to me the biggest point there is a suicide note yes it's only on a posted note right now the
00:59:58
rumors for a long time was that you know it says uh let me read it again doesn't
01:00:05
have much to it but uh a possible suicide note written on a posted note it read I am sorry love Elliot God forgive
01:00:18
me now the name Elliott there was rumors that it was spelled wrong cuz Elliot he
01:00:24
spells it with two T's and in the coordinator's report it was spelled with one t well that's all it was it was
01:00:35
misspelled on the corin's report by somebody other than Elliot Smith right so it it wasn't misspelled on the posted
01:00:43
note it was spelled correctly on the posted note but in the coordinator's report it was it was spelled incorrectly
01:00:50
so that was a rumor again something that I heard for years that oh yeah well there was this suicide note and it's
01:00:56
kind of weird that it's on a posted note and they spelled Elliot wrong well and here's here's their exact statement a
01:01:03
copy of a suicide note was provided by LAPD detective King original will be provided on
01:01:10
10233 so at the time that this document's created they've not received the original and they just have a copy right
01:01:20
and what they're saying is the note was handwritten on a Post-It and stated quote I'm so sorry love Elliot with one
01:01:28
t God forgive me the note is not dated right so here's here's where it gets weird though so detective King could
01:01:36
have wrote this out and handed it to him and said this I'll get you the I'll get
01:01:40
you the original again for years I heard that there was a suicide note but the name was spelled wrong now now we know
01:01:47
that that was just it was just a m pilot error yeah so here's where it gets weird weird
01:01:54
cuz you go okay they believe or at least all the speculation that I've seen is that this
01:02:03
note was written by Elliot Smith I am sorry love Elliot God forgive me I would like for them to examine just
01:02:13
the God forgive me because I am I'm so sorry love Elliot how many fights were they in that week that led to a bigger
01:02:21
fight and is it possible that he just wrote that out and he went for a walk one day yeah just left it yeah and
01:02:28
didn't write God forgive me but again everything that I've seene says this note was written by Elliott now if this
01:02:37
note was written by Elliott Jennifer would have walked into the perfect situation we're in this
01:02:43
argument he's uh he's out of control I can't stand I can't stand him anymore I want him
01:02:52
dead I'm going to stab him and oh look he left this little possible suicide note mhm so now I can stab him
01:03:03
twice pull it out I'll wait a little bit but not too long and I'll call 911 again I I I think it's more likely
01:03:13
this guy that threatened suicide multiple times was in a state of panic and state
01:03:20
of acting erratic couldn't control the situation probably was making threats the person
01:03:28
on the other end of the threats probably thought they were Hollow threats because
01:03:32
they were hollowed threats before he writes this note it's simple but he wrote it and then he stabbed himself twice and
01:03:44
she comes out and yes she should not have pulled the knife from his chest but again she called 911 when she could have
01:03:54
wait waited just another 5 minutes or another 10 minutes or another you know what I
01:03:59
mean well and another another note regarding the note um it states here that once the decedent was taken to the
01:04:09
hospital police officers arrived and questioned Jennifer about this incident during this questioning she was seated
01:04:16
at the kitchen table and noted for the first time a Post-It note that appeared to be a suicide note left by the
01:04:24
decedent mhm Jennifer recognized the handwriting on the Note as that of the deant and had not seen the note before
01:04:32
that moment the knife the knife the decedent used to stab himself was a regular kitchen knife that immediately
01:04:41
prior to this incident had been sitting out on a cutting board in the kitchen right so the the note according to
01:04:50
detective King and according to these police officers it's not believed that she saw that note
01:04:58
beforehand right so they're questioning her they're talking to her they're trying to figure out what's going on
01:05:03
well he's being taken to the hospital right and she then notices the note but they're there and look these guys are
01:05:12
trained to read people and they're reading somebody see this note for the first time well and the thing here too Captain
01:05:21
is that the way that this autopsy document reads it sounds like the detectives the
01:05:28
exact words are detectives believe this death is possibly suspicious it sounds to me like they
01:05:35
were suspicious of this whole incident as soon as they arrived on the scene right now the problem then becomes the
01:05:43
person that that's dead you can't speak to them they can't give you their account of what
01:05:48
happened now we have this other person we only have two people in this apartment
01:05:54
at the time that this incident occurs yeah so if they are immediately suspicious they have to figure
01:06:03
out is this person who's giving this statement Jennifer is she truthful well we can't determine some of her
01:06:11
truthfulness right here during this questioning because we need scientific fact we need evidence and stuff like
01:06:18
that to tell us if she is being truthful about the exact incident but what we can
01:06:24
figure out is as a whole do we generally walk away from this conversation and believe her statement as a whole to be
01:06:36
truthful so what they're going to look for are things like okay so according to this document it does not say in here
01:06:43
that that she took a shower but for instance that's something they would use because according to the statement is
01:06:50
she took a shower and then heard the scream this leads me to believe that she had to end her shower abruptly and go
01:06:57
out to find him well first off when I'm talking to this individual does she look
01:07:02
like she recently took a shower is her hair still wet right does she look like she was in a shower that was interrupted
01:07:08
okay we've spoke to the neighbors yes they heard shouting they heard some kind of argument so what they're going to do
01:07:16
is if they are suspicious of this person they are going to look for reasons to feed their suspicion or look for reasons
01:07:24
to believe her story or her story is being truthful about points of the story so again if she were to have attacked
01:07:34
him we know this would have been a face-to-face attack this would have been a head-on
01:07:39
attack we see very few possible defensive wounds and then on top of that they're going to be looking at her and
01:07:47
saying does she look like she had just been in a fight does is there any marks or scratches or anything on her that
01:07:55
would lead me to believe that she's recently been in some type of altercation or some type of fight where
01:08:02
she attacked this man right and I think if they would have seen those if that would have been obvious to them or if
01:08:09
any points of the shower or the neighbors didn't you know confirm the argument they would have backed all that
01:08:16
stuff up and they would have piled it up against her to leave to to have the suspicion meter to built more toward
01:08:25
homicide right so that it could be further investigated as such so I think here what I'm going to go off of is
01:08:35
similar to you I my determination from the outside looking in would be yes there is cause to question this right as
01:08:45
a suicide but for me there are more things that point towards suicide as well as the 911 call if if in fact it
01:08:54
was placed immediately that really points to me like she was just doing her best to try to save him and then on top
01:09:02
of that I'm going to factor in the the responding officers they don't seem to know anything in this report that they
01:09:12
believe that she was in some type of fight before this this occurred so I think that I think that
01:09:19
there's a lack of evidence to point towards homicide here [Music] would' like to hear your opinion suicide
01:09:38
or homicide go to True Crim garage.com and go to the blog and let us know your thoughts there also if you're
01:09:46
looking for old episodes download the Stitcher app they're all available for free on the Stitcher app and our weekly
01:09:52
show off the record on Stitcher premium is available just just go to our website
01:09:58
and click on the off the Record link and if anybody wants to learn more about Elliot Smith this great artist you can
01:10:06
find a lot of his music and videos on the internet I would recommend Son of Sam is a good one as well as his
01:10:13
performance in the late 90s on Saturday Night Live if anybody's looking to check
01:10:17
out more of Elliot Smith's good good stuff that he did give to us while he was here I recommend doing that all
01:10:26
right until next week be good be kind and don't [Music] litter [Music] you can start your day off right when
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you find a professional on Angie to get your plumbing right first connect with skilled professionals
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