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[Music] [Applause] % welcome to True Crime garage wherever you are whatever you are doing thanks
00:01:45
for listening I'm your host Nick and with me as always is a guy that would like to remind everyone entering the
00:01:51
garage that there's a $5 charge for whining he is the captain and there's a $1,000 charge if you're the colonel it's
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it's good to be seing and it's good to see you thanks for listening thanks for telling a
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[Music] friend fresh out the fridge we have you're a good man Charlie Brown Ale by
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week's show and make sure you check out the store Page cuz we have the Zodiac hoodies you have to order them by the
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7th they ship out on the 14th so yes you should receive them by Christmas and that's enough of the business everybody
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gather around grab a chair grab a beer let's talk some true crime [Music] [Music]
00:03:58
n many have told the story of Edmund keer but you've never heard it quite like this before most of the information in
00:04:10
this case is well known but I will lay some of it out here Edmund Emil keer III was raised by
00:04:18
a mother that even when he was just a small boy she very likely hated him Edmund liked to play Death ritual games
00:04:27
with his sister he tried living with his father but he didn't want him either he grew to be a large man and
00:04:36
extremely intelligent Ed was about 6'9 in tall and his IQ near genius level some call him the ogre of
00:04:49
apus as an adult he was convicted of the mutilation slangs of eight women was this hulking monster born evil
00:05:00
or was he made evil this week we will study Edmund and those who have studied him before we
00:05:08
will try to learn about the angry little boy that lives inside this giant homicidal
00:05:15
man this is a look at the murderous Madness of Edmund keer The Co-Ed Killer well I'm not an expert I'm not an
00:05:25
authority I'm someone who has been a murderer for almost 20 years can can you say how many people might be doing
00:05:32
crimes like you were doing it would be a guess but it's not it's far more than 35
00:05:38
it isn't that impossible in this Society it happens are there more people they didn't give
00:05:45
up he she didn't give up I did I came in out of the cold and what I'm saying is there are
00:05:53
some people who prefer it in the cold you were able to appear like a or ordinary person non-threatening to I
00:06:02
lived as an ordinary person most of my life even though I was living a parallel and increasingly sick life other life
00:06:10
one victim let me back in the car I locked myself out she opened the door for me my gun was under the seat what in the
00:06:20
hell am I doing telling you that am I looking am I am I masochist am I looking to be tormented further I'm trying to
00:06:27
show you just how awful this got how commanding these rages [Music] got the True Crime garage Army loved the
00:06:49
hit series mind Hunter the show based on the real life events of the Genesis of the FBI's Behavioral Science unit housed
00:06:58
at FBI headquarters in Quantico Virginia on mind Hunter the main characters Holden Ford and Bill tench are
00:07:05
essentially the dramatized onscreen versions of famous real life FBI agents John Douglas and Bob wrestler like on
00:07:13
the show in like in real life these agents worked in a special unit of the FBI that had many objectives but two of
00:07:21
the most important were helping local law enforcement agencies solve crimes and studying the new phenomenon at the
00:07:29
time which was the realization of the significant increase of stranger on Stranger crimes serial offenders and
00:07:37
serial killers which are both terms now often used but back then serial offender
00:07:43
and serial killer were new terms both coined by the special agents working with this unit at the FBI this week we
00:07:52
will be discussing serial killer Edmund keer who spent a lot of time talking with the FBI over the years the general
00:07:59
topics of discussion who was he what crimes did he commit and why the first series of M Hunter features some of
00:08:07
these dramatizations of these talks with keer and the FBI now we both watched season 1
00:08:14
and loved it and one thing we have discussed on our show off the Record and I say this almost shamefully Captain we
00:08:20
both loved actor Cameron Britain as seral killer Edmond keer heck sometimes during breaks we when working we would
00:08:29
stopped the show and we both were doing keer impressions I particularly like the
00:08:34
scene when they were talking about the horrible murders keer has committed and he's offering the agents another slice
00:08:40
of pizza now this is disturbing on several levels because while I'm watching the show and thinking to myself
00:08:47
I could listen to Ed keer talk for days then the realization comes back to you kicks you in the teeth with the reminder
00:08:54
that Ed keer was a despicable human being he's a monster and yet I find him somewhat charming and some might be
00:09:03
saying well that's the TV version of Ed Colonel and it is but if you and we have
00:09:10
watched interviews with the real Ed keer it's very similar so we felt bad about that but we're not alone in our liking
00:09:20
of the TV version of keer because actor camaron Britain did win an Emmy for his work on the show yeah well on some of
00:09:27
the lines that they use in the show are direct lines from the interviews that were recorded so let's go to the real
00:09:34
life version of The Genesis of the FBI's Behavioral Science unit and case study of Edmund keer now interviewing serial
00:09:43
killers so it was it was John Douglas that suggested to Bob wrestler that since there were so many serial killers
00:09:50
locked up that they should start talking to them to see if they would talk about
00:09:54
what they had done and why they believed that they did it one just like you hear
00:10:00
earlier with the pizza offering the pizza the FBI would offer them a special meal like hey if you interview with us
00:10:08
we can get you a pizza or we can get you some specialty sub or something that you
00:10:13
can't get in prison well Bob westler agreed with Douglas and they decided that they were going to start
00:10:19
interviewing these guys and actually they decided that while they were in California helping law enforcement to
00:10:25
start there because as we all know from the various cases have covered here in the garage California has certainly had
00:10:32
its more than fair share of weird crimes and serial killers yeah so this was 1978
00:10:38
and they're going to go interview their first serial killer and they decided to start with ED keer ED was housed at the
00:10:45
California medical facility in Vacaville California they decided their best method of going about this was to show
00:10:52
up unannounced and without permission from the FBI and without giving the prison prior notice as well so this is
00:11:01
for two reasons one the FBI believes these guys believe the FBI would have told them no you can't go around
00:11:07
interviewing serials right and two they also believed if the meeting was scheduled with the inmate that the
00:11:14
inmate would likely be considered a snitch by the other prisoners thus possibly putting their subject in danger
00:11:21
and making them far less likely to cooperate and agree to these interviews so if they showed up unannounced
00:11:29
the other inmates would just assume that they simply were investigating a case or
00:11:33
investigating something or other now we have to consider how terrifying this could be even for federal agents first
00:11:42
they can't go in there with their gun or weapon you know they don't want those things working their way into the you
00:11:49
know population right and second they have to sign waivers agreeing that if they were to be taken hostage at any
00:11:56
time that they understood that they would not not be bargained for well and both of these men they're going to go in
00:12:03
as a pair so both of these men are trained but Ed is also 69 that's a big boy yeah basically
00:12:11
locked alone in a room with a 6'9 in tall almost 300 lb man and then another thing that Douglas was concerned about
00:12:21
was the IQ of Edmund keer now I got to be honest with you here Captain I've seen this I Hue kind of all over the
00:12:30
shop I've seen it listed as high as 146 and as low as 131 yeah or 31 well I I do know that he was tested
00:12:41
at least twice so that might be the cause of some of these uh variations I also understand that there's multiple
00:12:49
versions of the what we would just call the IQ test which could give a different
00:12:55
score so to speak so kind of like credit scores there's different top levels of different credit scores
00:13:01
yes and so we have Douglas who he thought to himself and I'm sure he discussed this with wrestler in advance
00:13:08
he was a little worried that you know these guys are used to being the smartest guys in the room and now
00:13:13
they're in there with this giant and they're worried that he's smarter than them you know so physically he could
00:13:19
overpower them mentally he might be able to manipulate them or to [ __ ] them to put it quite Frank right but like I
00:13:26
said both these guys are trained individuals these guys have made it to the FBI so they've dealt with some of
00:13:34
the scum of the earth mhm oh yeah so they're going to I mean but just imagine if you're not trained at all right some
00:13:42
of these police officers have taken criminals that have done heinous crimes and they had to lock them up uh handcuff
00:13:50
them put them in the backseat of their car and transport them to another prison or to another
00:13:55
jail by themselves mhm and so so yes this is U this sounds crazy to us to go hey you're going to go into this little
00:14:05
still cage with this uh killer but but I also think these guys are are a lot tougher than uh that maybe he gave them
00:14:14
credit for well you and I discussed um wickline which was a somebody that was put to death here in in Ohio for a
00:14:22
couple of murders yeah and wickline was a large man he was he was quite strong as well and he was intelligent too um he
00:14:30
was not as big as Edmund keer his IQ was probably not as high as Edmund keer and
00:14:36
and he he was a guy that you know we spoke to several officers that said I knew guys that had to transport him I
00:14:44
knew guys that had to be in a room with Wick line and they told they went to their superiors in advance and said I
00:14:50
refuse to be alone with him right if I'm going to be in a room or in a car with this guy there better be multiples uh
00:14:57
you know there better be a bunch of good guys in only one Wick line so the thing
00:15:01
with uh you know and like you said these guys are trained these guys are skilled
00:15:05
individuals Douglas was a um I believe he was a boxer in in college you know so so a bit of a tough guy I guess but yeah
00:15:14
I mean this look if you're a trained boxer and then you have to you had to deal with the scum of the earth those
00:15:20
guys aren't they're not afraid of this guy but keep in mind just the reach alone on Ed keer I mean 6'9 yeah but you
00:15:28
know the difference between a normal human and a and an actual trained boxer like
00:15:34
the anytime somebody says hey I I trained as a boxer you don't want to fight that guy right that guy knows how
00:15:41
to throw a punch the thing though too that that's tough for us regular civilians to get over is just the idea
00:15:49
of forget about his size or his intelligence but just the idea of being in a room with somebody that you know is
00:15:57
not only capable of murder but according to the case File it tells you that he enjoyed it yeah I'm not trying to put a
00:16:03
damper on this but I also think some of the psychological um Warfare on this is you
00:16:09
know Ed 69 he kills women mhm you know what I mean like it's not like he just killed anybody and
00:16:18
everybody right you mean you mean he's not like like Russell Crow entering the uh Coliseum fighting lions yeah are you
00:16:27
not entertained are you not entertained so the John Douglas and Bob wrestler they were interested really and
00:16:37
truly in anything that keer wanted to tell them but per the units study they were primarily interested in getting
00:16:44
answers to the following questions one what leads a person to become a Serial sexual offender and what are the early
00:16:53
warning signals two what serves to encourage or to inhibit the the commission of his offense three what
00:17:02
types of response or coping strategies by an intended victim are successful with what type of sexual offender in
00:17:10
avoiding victimization four what are the implications for his dangerousness prognosis disposition and mode of
00:17:20
treatment all right so question for you because if you watch mine hunter they don't really have questionnaires or
00:17:27
really much of objective at the beginning or that's at least what the show portrays MH so do you think that
00:17:36
this was the first the first things that they're trying to get answered and then that
00:17:41
developed more later um I think that probably that between the two of them John Douglas and Bob wrestler that this
00:17:49
was their primary goal right from the onset of everything right I just don't think that they put pen to paper to come
00:17:57
up with it an effective strategy so according to the show the TV show and what I think we can kind of infer from
00:18:05
the show is like you said they come up with basically a questionnaire hey here's kind of a script to not share
00:18:12
with the subject but between the two of you you know that you're working to get answers to these set of questions right
00:18:19
but that script happened once they got a doctor involved correct and I think what
00:18:24
that the whole Genesis of that would be and where the smarts of that comes into play is these guys were extremely busy
00:18:33
and what I mean by that is when this first started they weren't being paid to or their superiors didn't even
00:18:41
understand that they were out interviewing these serial killers they were actually supposed to be there on
00:18:45
other business they're training local law enforcement agencies on how to detect and deduce certain crimes they're
00:18:53
also working with local law enforcement agencies to actually solve crimes so while they happen to be in the
00:18:59
neighborhood so to speak they're like okay well what prison is nearby and who is locked up for life or you know and
00:19:07
let's go talk to them yeah and both of these guys were also original members of New Kids on the Block so they had a lot
00:19:14
of stuff going on so most of the time in the beginning until they got their um grant
00:19:21
money they were doing this on their own time in the evenings and on the weekends
00:19:26
so I think the script and I think putting together a list of actual questions is really just a way to
00:19:33
maximize their time in their efficiency while they're there talking to him you've watched plenty of interviews with
00:19:39
Ed keer you you know it's obvious he can just talk and talk and talk and talk for
00:19:44
hours and hours and hours when he graduated he was most likely to have a podcast in in his high school class so
00:19:53
the the interesting thing here though is you asked do you believe that these were
00:19:59
were questions that they sought answers to right from the beginning yeah just because if I'm wrong it it made it seem
00:20:06
like we don't know what to expect so let's just go in there and see if we could get him talking I think that's the
00:20:13
truth I think that's the truth on some level we do know that this was their objective um because this was later
00:20:20
released many years later this was after they got their grant money it's kind of
00:20:24
to Champion their cause so to speak they leas these sets of questions hey this is
00:20:30
what we're looking for when we interview these guys in an FBI News Bulletin to the rest of their uh Department in their
00:20:36
agencies I'm confusing real life with the TV show but also in this TV show wasn't the first meeting a solo meeting
00:20:45
where he actually didn't go in with his partner well that's a dramatization in real life there were three individuals
00:20:52
that sat down with Ed keer the first time um and I don't know the name of the other um officer involved and I and to
00:21:02
be honest with you I think it was a local FBI agent you know Douglas and wrestler are not local to the area right
00:21:10
I think that that FBI agent probably worked because they had not been in a prison yet and they didn't know that hey
00:21:17
you could just walk up with and flash your FBI badge and most of the time that works to get into the prison right well
00:21:23
cuz a lot of these prison guards or local officers had a lot of respect for FBI well think about two of the
00:21:30
questions that that they listed there within those four you know and they're all kind of lengthy questions if you
00:21:36
really dissect them each one is actually multiple questions worked into one question right but the Simplicity of it
00:21:43
is two things one what is the early warning signals of who this person could turn into to be I know that answer too
00:21:52
much flicky flicky and then two this is interesting what can a victim do if you find yourself caught up with an
00:22:01
individual like this a serial killer serial rapist what can I do to try to get myself out of this situation and
00:22:09
behavioral wise you know are there things that I can say things that I can do are there actions I can take or
00:22:15
reactions to this mad man that I can use to to save my own life and get me out of
00:22:21
this situation right because what we've seen with Bundy you're going to see with
00:22:25
keer you're going to see with other serial killers that they will have moments where everything you know this
00:22:34
plan that normally takes place normally these serial killers it's like after the
00:22:39
first attack or the second attack then they start going well this is how I'm going to do it this is my ruse to get
00:22:44
them in my car then we go here then we drive this and then we do this and then I pull my gun on them and they kind of
00:22:51
have a routine that they're building but there's also times where it's like uh my
00:22:55
routine was to pick pick up a hitchhiker my routine was to pick up a sex worker and they will do that and they just drop
00:23:02
the individual off and there is no murder right so what made those different than the actual attacks the
00:23:10
Simplicity of both of those questions and actually in my opinion almost all four of those questions is really early
00:23:17
detection of a serial killer and preventing more loss of life you know we have how can a victim get out of this
00:23:24
situation one as law enforcement you want a victim to get get out of the situation not only to save their own
00:23:30
life but to help you solve the crime help you make an arrest somebody that could later identify somebody that did
00:23:36
something terrible to them or at least attempted to do so and then we have the early warning signals you know the early
00:23:43
signs of of the creation of the serial killers if I could just interject for a second this has been on my mind all
00:23:51
morning but we're talking about serial killer so it's relevant okay don't give me those eyes big shout out to Bill Burr
00:24:00
the comedian I was watching his show last night his uh cartoon show on Netflix F is for family
00:24:08
and there's a scene where he's arguing with this kid and he starts fighting the kidm and then the dad comes up and he's
00:24:16
like what you what are you doing you're trying to fight my 9-year-old son what what are you some kind of [ __ ] right
00:24:22
and then you notice that the guy's name on his name badge that's fighting Bill Berg's character his last name is dmer
00:24:32
and he's then he starts calling his son Jeffrey and the kid has blonde hair with
00:24:38
the little glasses and I just thought I can't one I can't get away from True Crime but how clever it is that he just
00:24:45
kind of threw it in there like I I wonder how many people watched that and didn't even know that it was Jeffrey
00:24:51
dmer and True Crimes kind of seeped its way into all different kinds of media well and the fact too that like the
00:24:58
cartoon is based around that time period where Jeffrey dmer would have been a child okay okay well but a key thing to
00:25:05
keep in mind when talking to these serial killer types um and we've touched on this a bit already is that they are
00:25:13
often skilled manipulators and some of them quite intelligent which as is the case with keer so it was it was and is
00:25:22
extremely important that the FBI agents know the case inside and out in order to
00:25:28
hopefully get the answers to the questions and to advance the FBI's ability to prevent detect and capture
00:25:36
serial offenders and serial killers now the agents are going to want to learn everything they can about Ker's
00:25:45
childhood environment relationships crimes habits and his arrest but they're going to want to know this in his own
00:25:53
words right from his mouth and when we come back we will talk about about some of the things that they
00:26:10
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2023 you were involved in the campus because your mother worked there yes I was also involved in killing
00:28:17
co-eds because my mother was associated with college work college co-eds women and had had a very strong and
00:28:27
violent ly outspoken position on men for much of my upbringing my mother was a a sick angry
00:28:37
hungry and very sad woman I hated her but I wanted to love my mother and I watched the alcohol increase I watched
00:28:46
her social life drop off I watched her get bizarre she had terrible pain from her life earlier life her upbringing uh
00:28:56
a failed marriage with my father father I'm a constant reminder of that failure I hate to distill it down into such uh
00:29:03
into one word reality is like that there's a lot that leads into that happening but that is what happened they
00:29:10
represented not what my mother was but what she liked what she coveted what was important to her and I was destroying it
00:29:17
why did you actually kill the girls my frustration my inability to communicate socially
00:29:28
sexually I wasn't impotent but emotionally I was impotent I was scared to death of failing in male
00:29:36
female relationships I knew absolutely nothing about that whole area even if just sitting down and talking with the
00:29:42
young lady I need to be able to really communicate and ironically enough that's why I began picking people up and I'm
00:29:50
picking up young women and I'm going a little bit farther each time it's a daring kind of a thing at first there
00:29:57
was wasn't a gun I'm driving along we go to a vulnerable place where there aren't
00:30:02
people watching where I could act out and I say no I can't and then a gun is in the car hidden and this craving this
00:30:12
awful raging eating feeling inside I could feel it consuming my insides this fantastic
00:30:24
passion uh it was overwhelming me it was like drugs it was like alcohol a little isn't enough at first it is and
00:30:33
as you adjust to that psychologically and physically you take more and more and more it's the same process so it
00:30:39
finally came down to the thing of do I dare bring this gun out already realizing if that gun comes out
00:30:45
something has to happen Edmond Emil keer thei was born December 18th 1948 in Burbank California
00:30:56
now during his childhood keer was physically and emotionally abused by his alcoholic mother clarnell who was
00:31:04
divorced from his father before the divorce Ed was close with his father after the divorce Ed's mother hated him
00:31:12
and it's believed this is because Ed looked almost exactly like his father one of Ed's favorite games to play as a
00:31:19
boy was a game that he invented in which he called it gas chamber or the gas chamber this would be a game that he
00:31:26
played with his sister where they would take turns basically pretending to be gassed or gassing one another and then
00:31:34
he would ride the round pretending to be in pain on the floor as he's pretending
00:31:39
to die because of this uh game that they were playing now why clarnell and Ed's two sisters slept upstairs she made her
00:31:49
son at the age of just 8 years old sleep in the dark and cold basement alone at night this is likely that she did this
00:31:58
for many reasons but the reason most often cited for this treatment or abuse was she was afraid Ed would molest or
00:32:06
rape one of his sisters so and we've heard in several interviews Ed describe this and he describes it in a way that
00:32:16
makes you really realize how tormenting this was for him this was a form of some kind of psychological
00:32:24
abuse because he was afraid to be in the basement by himself right but there was
00:32:29
there any evidence that he would do this or is this just a a madeup nonsense fear
00:32:36
by his mother oh that he would rape or molest the sister right that's a really good question and I've this is the thing
00:32:44
that I've often wondered about because now let's say you're his mother you're now in a situation where much
00:32:53
later in life this is projected as being a form of abuse and torment that you instilled on only one child out of three
00:33:03
right you kind of signaled out this dude singled out this dude and put him through hell and you know it's it's kind
00:33:09
of like a Cinderella situation right treat one bad and the other good well but you hit on something important here
00:33:17
what if there is some type of evidence that he would have molested or maybe even raped his sister yeah then in a
00:33:25
sense you're preventing the torture or abuse of another of your children you see what I mean by putting him in the
00:33:31
basement well right and you're not putting him out in a shed right but now this is also the 50s so the basement
00:33:39
they're not what basements are now the basement must have been terrible in the 50s right and they're probably wet and I
00:33:46
I heard also that he could hear rats possibly yeah so the thing when we talk about Edmond keer here that we should be
00:33:55
completely clear about regarding this story is that there has been variations of his childhood and variations of his
00:34:04
story throughout the years I do wonder what is fact and what is fiction after all these years have passed I do know
00:34:14
from an interview that he gave he described sleeping in the basement and described it simply as every night he
00:34:21
would go down he you know he would he would walk down the stairs right so picture like an old rickety wooden
00:34:28
staircase he would walk down the stairs and there was a single light at the bottom of the staircase and he would you
00:34:35
know it has the string hanging from it he would reach up and he would pull the string to turn it on and then he said
00:34:41
that that would only light up basically that corner of the basement right well he slept in the far Corner away from
00:34:49
that so he would walk all the way because he was afraid of being in the dark in the basement by himself well
00:34:55
that was that's the age where your mom says go get the a towel out of the basement you go okay and then you Brave
00:35:02
the courage it's middle of the day and you turn on the light and then you grab the towel and now you have to turn off
00:35:08
the light but you have to run up the steps cuz you're so afraid that something's going to grab you right so
00:35:14
he would walk the length of the basement basically to the other end where there was another light hanging and he would
00:35:22
put you know with a string and he would pull the string and turn that light on and then he would walk all the way back
00:35:27
to turn off the light that was near the stairs and he there most reports and stories would say that he was locked in
00:35:36
the basement every night I don't know if that in fact is true because his own words state that he he was in charge of
00:35:44
closing the the basement door uh he actually references that he would get yelled at by his mom because of the the
00:35:50
cold would seep up into the house uh if he didn't close the basement door and she didn't want to feel the cold
00:35:59
that's so nice of her I don't know if he could hear rats you know that that's the
00:36:03
other rumor was that he could hear the rats scratching around in the night yeah or if that was just made up in his head
00:36:09
yeah or or if it's just a story to make it worse than what it actually was in all reality let's say there were no rats
00:36:16
at the very least we have an 8-year-old boy somebody who's very young um mentally young as well emotionally young
00:36:24
sleeping by himself in a dark cold basement to which it's so cold that he's required to shut the door so the cold
00:36:32
doesn't seep into the rest of the house and at the very least in the middle of the night he's going to hear the furnace
00:36:37
turning on and off uh so there would be noises that would probably startle him and wake him up or Scare him throughout
00:36:45
the night right and on top of that why are you there why are you in the basement if you know it's because your
00:36:52
mother fears this then it's like and again if there's no evidence that you're going to do this or even capable of
00:37:00
doing that do you then become capable of doing it because you are essentially being accused of being capable of doing
00:37:07
it well the other thing too Captain is it is no question that his mother was an alcoholic so there could be a skewed
00:37:17
perception on her behalf as to what was going on in her home if she was drunk or
00:37:23
under the influence a lot of the time while she was home but keer did engage in psychotic and Psychopathic Behavior
00:37:31
early on so he started off by dismembering his sister's dolls uh this was all based around a violent fantasy
00:37:39
that he would later tell us about uh killing his mother and his sisters now one book describes this scenario pretty
00:37:46
simply in something something like this stating that as Ed sat awake in the cold
00:37:51
dark basement at night and his hatred grew and grew he fantasized about killing the females upstairs so right
00:37:59
because he's less thin and they've made him less thin but also just because you're son rips apart your daughter's
00:38:07
baby you know or Barbie dolls I don't know if that's a sign of anything the fact that he is stating
00:38:15
that it was a replication of how he would murder his family now that's that's a whole different level but a kid
00:38:21
just ripping apart a doll that's sometimes boys will just be boys yeah and he said that he started off by like
00:38:29
popping off their heads you know so like if you picture like a Barbie doll or any
00:38:33
kind of doll they usually have like that plastic head uh connected to a much stiffer stronger sturdier plastic body
00:38:41
and he says you know he would get like pleasure from hearing that that noise when he would pull the head from the
00:38:47
body right well later he said that he actually believes he even received some kind of or or got some kind of sexual
00:38:55
arousal by doing this and look I'm just going to put this question out now because we're going to be talking a lot
00:39:02
about his viewpoints on things and again this is this is also hindsight is he just making some of this stuff up later
00:39:10
in life to make him seem more interested I mean this is a guy that wants to talk
00:39:16
he wants to be heard he wants people to listen to him or they more likely to listen to you if you're coming up with
00:39:23
these interesting scenarios mhm well and here's Captain where I think we should probably drop a bit of a warning
00:39:32
for the listeners um as we're going to get into a couple of things that I know some people don't like to hear about and
00:39:38
this is typical behavior of a lot of these seral killers so some of you might want to just kind of fast forward about
00:39:47
a minute minute and a half or so so one of these behaviors that keer keer was showing us as a as a Young Man
00:39:57
uh when he was a teenager early in his teen years this included the torture and killing of animals now the family had
00:40:04
two cats one of them he buried alive and he later dug it up and would he stored the carcass of the cat in a closet in
00:40:13
their house and then the second cat he killed with a machete so this is a different situation much different one
00:40:20
buried alive the other he's actually physically attacking it with a machete to the point of he's getting blood
00:40:26
on himself during the course of killing this animal right but this is a huge step up from dismembering dolls yes and
00:40:34
actually I found this quite interesting some psychologists say that cats are the
00:40:40
most killed animals by these young later to be serial killers because of a couple
00:40:46
of psychological reasons one most by far most serial killers are men and many have suggested that the cat on some some
00:40:56
psychological level is representative of the female gender right and that a lot of these guys kill for their hate of a
00:41:04
single female or of all of the gender well I think you see this with uh dmer you also saw with the cat torture videos
00:41:14
of Luca magnata AKA PCA NADA but in that scenario with the Luca magnata case his victim was was a male
00:41:24
yeah and so that's that's why they believe that cats are usually you know we see the torture of
00:41:31
different animals we we certainly did when we talked about BTK and as you mentioned several others but uh seems to
00:41:38
be that cats are the most often killed by these guys now this is a good time for us to introduce what the Mind Hunter
00:41:46
guys would refer to as the homicidal Triad well hold on uh this is a good time to apologize for people that we
00:41:53
probably should have said 2 and a half minutes fast forward to 2 and A2 minutes so you probably caught that tail in and
00:42:00
we're sorry about that yeah so the the homicidal Triad as the Mind Hunter guys would later come up with this is after
00:42:07
years of studying these serial killers and interviewing them and coming up with and getting information straight
00:42:14
directly from them um so these behaviors these three behaviors that we would see
00:42:20
time and time again in the childhood of these eventual serial killers are these three types of of things one Fire
00:42:28
Starting two bed weding and three cruelty to animals I'm a firear twisted fire so um with Ed Edmund um is he
00:42:43
wetting the bed is he making the wet basement wetter I don't know about wetting the bed or Fire Starting but we
00:42:51
do know he was doing the cruelty to animals but this is I mean throughout their studies this is something that
00:42:57
they would see enough to the point that they came up with a name for it the homicidal Triad and this is something
00:43:05
that they would see out of these serial killers where they would often exhibit one or two or all three of these
00:43:14
behaviors during their the course of their childhood well there's different levels too of like pyromaniacs I mean
00:43:20
when you're a kid especially a young boy and you get a a box matches or you get a
00:43:27
lighter you're going to light every toy that you can on fire mhm but then sometimes you're hanging out with one of
00:43:34
your buddies and they're like to the extreme and I think that's kind of what they're talking about there's always
00:43:40
going to be somewhat of a Fascination especially with little boys playing with lighters or matches yeah yeah so people
00:43:47
out there listening shouldn't freak out if they've experienced some I would freak out if your son or daughter is
00:43:54
doing the cruelty to animals thing that seems to me to be a different level um but like you said some kids play with
00:44:01
fire some some kids wet the bed I mean right um and I don't know how much I think years later um I'm curious to see
00:44:10
how much they think the bed wedding is actually involved because it's not that's not a destructive behavior when
00:44:16
you compare it to the other two you know it's not a destructive Behavior at all did you have a wedding of the bed
00:44:22
problem well but they're talking about seems like you're defending this one no I'm not defending any of it what I'm
00:44:29
saying is it they what they mean by bed wedding is of of a considerable older age right you know if you have a
00:44:37
three-year-old kid and they're wet in the bed sometimes they're just a three-year-old kid right um anyway it's
00:44:45
what we do know is Edmund grew up to hate his mother and at the age of 14 he ran away from home this is in search of
00:44:53
his father and he finds his father in vanise Califor California so when he caught up he was looking for a better
00:44:59
basement well when he caught up with his father his father had a new family and he didn't want Edmund staying with them
00:45:06
so keer said just him being around gave his stepmother migraine head headaches so he was shipped off to go live with
00:45:17
his father's parents on a 17 Acre Farm in North Folk California yeah but can you imagine though okay
00:45:26
let's say you're not well okay say you are married and then you bring your son around and your wife is saying I get
00:45:34
migraines this kid gives me migraines you really going to pick this Looney Tune over your son well you got
00:45:44
to keep in mind he's already chose to not choose his son he's he's not been living with his son he's already walked
00:45:51
away from that job and from that responsibility and that's why yeah but you also see I wonder what the actions were
00:46:01
between or what kind of relationship was there violence or anything between uh Ker's mother father what what was their
00:46:09
Dynamic like because if she is you know this alcoholic Looney Tune then You' think on some level okay yeah I didn't
00:46:18
choose you then but hey things are probably pretty bad for you so maybe I should do something well he would have
00:46:24
had a good idea when I say he I mean Edmund's father would have had a good idea because I believe his and I don't
00:46:32
remember the exact words but something something similar to this he stated that being with clarnell with Edmond's mom
00:46:43
was worse than the time he spent fighting in the war and he was from my understanding like he referred to his
00:46:50
time in the war he was in in served I don't know which war it was but he served over a year in in combat to what
00:46:57
he referred to as suicide missions and he said being with her was worse and more frightening than being in those
00:47:04
suicide missions see there you go so you would have to so you're you're a bit Yeah but here's my point though it's
00:47:12
worse than a suicide mission and that's what you're putting your eight-year-old son through in his opinion yes and then
00:47:19
when your son finally shows up and leaves there and says look I didn't like living there so i' I sought you out I
00:47:26
came and I found you I do have to give some some credit here um you know I'm not liking Edmund's
00:47:36
father at all I don't I don't see he sounds like a use a piece of [ __ ] I don't appreciate him not being around
00:47:43
for Edmund's childhood or for taking the responsibility of being a real father but what I will give him credit for is
00:47:51
sending him to his parents' home rather than shipping him back to clear now all right so you a piece of
00:47:59
[ __ ] but you a little less piece of [ __ ] cuz you sent them with your parents well
00:48:03
he probably figured hey if I can't raise you here then I'm going to look I turned
00:48:08
out you maybe he considers he turned out pretty fine and he maybe he has good fond memories of his childhood and
00:48:14
thought well I'll send you to go live with my parents can you imagine what this country would be like or what this
00:48:19
world would be like if if every man actually manned up and raised their kids well that's a big portion of of the
00:48:29
study into the serial killers and why I said that we'll take a look at this situation and try to figure out if
00:48:36
Edmund keer was born evil or if he was made to be evil because the very simplistic thought of a serial killer is
00:48:46
this that they cannot have and and you can email me you can hit me up on the blog you can do whatever you want but
00:48:54
you it would be tough to convince me otherwise for a person to knowing and willingly and plan out the murder of
00:49:01
multiple people of multiple individuals they cannot have the same or share the same emotions that quote unquote normal
00:49:10
people have so why don't they have the same emotions as we do what about is that excluding like
00:49:19
soldiers well again that's that to me is a different situation A Sero killer is a
00:49:25
very um defined type of of person and killer okay where a soldier is a different definition of a killer
00:49:35
technically they both are still they both are killers but there are there huge differences between the two so
00:49:44
again why don't they so then the question then becomes why don't they have the same emotions why don't they
00:49:50
have the same responses as we would to their environment into behaviors around them into treatments that they're
00:50:00
receiving and this when you go back and you really get to probably the simplest form of this is does it start with being
00:50:10
a little baby and does it start with having a mother that didn't want you and having a father that wasn't there and
00:50:17
not developing those emotions and not of you know developing those uh behaviors empathy not
00:50:26
developing empathy at a very young age well and also not in that it doesn't always have to be that order sometimes
00:50:33
it's the mother that rejects them and the father is still around but he is just a not so such a great father mhm so
00:50:43
there I think you see it happen multiple ways yes and and not all Sero Killers had a horrible time growing up a
00:50:50
horrible childhood but some of them did and I do understand that there are a lot
00:50:55
of people out there that had bad childhoods because look if if everybody out there that had a bad a quote unquote
00:51:01
what they have determined to be a bad childhood right grew up to kill people in the double digits in the you know 10
00:51:08
or more people yeah we would be running out of people on this planet so it's I'm
00:51:13
not saying it's an excuse it's more of a question of why and how all right so his
00:51:17
father ships him off to live with his parents yes on a 17 Acre Farm in North Folk California and it's seems like Ed
00:51:27
got along well with his grandfather but not so much with his grandmother uh his grandmother was a bit of a strict
00:51:35
disciplinarian his grandparents got him a 22 rifle for Christmas for small game hunting there are differing stories
00:51:45
about what I'm about to tell you but the simple truth of it is this that on August 27th
00:51:52
1964 15-year-old Edmund keer used his Christmas present to shoot his grandmother in the back three times as
00:52:01
she sat at the kitchen table typing afterwards he stabbed her three times with a kitchen knife this is because he
00:52:09
says that he didn't want her to suffer he wanted to end it for her as quickly as possible the reason being for killing
00:52:17
his grandmother he's stated over the years that there's been several reasons but
00:52:22
the one that he cites the most often is he wanted to see what it would feel like
00:52:28
so his grandfather was out it was not home during the time when he killed his grandmother and the reason why I say
00:52:36
there are differing stories about this is because there's the way that these stories go is either his grandfather was
00:52:44
out in town shopping and then returned home or he was out hunting and the Ed was mad that
00:52:53
he could not go or upset said that he could not go hunting with his grandfather well if his grandfather in
00:52:59
fact wasn't out hunting then we know he wasn't mad about that right regardless when his grandfather returned to the
00:53:07
home as Ed would describe it they had a brief interaction where his grandfather waved to him you know he's getting out
00:53:15
of his truck and he waves to him and like I said it seems like the two of them had had a good relationship yeah
00:53:21
and Ed waited till his grandfather turned his back and he shot his grandfather he would
00:53:28
later then hide the body in a closet and he said that he shot his grandfather for
00:53:36
reasons that all seem to stem from not wanting him to have discovered that that he had just killed his grandmother yeah
00:53:43
maybe not wanting him to see the body maybe not wanting him to be disappointed and and keer yeah probably several
00:53:50
things here so not wanting him to be angry at Ed or upset with with Ed disappointed in Ed as you had said or
00:53:58
also at the the loss of life of his wife right you know his longtime companion the weird thing though here Captain
00:54:05
we've actually heard this with several other serial killers and and I'll reference
00:54:11
BTK uh as a prime example here is Edmund immediately felt like at any time a whole bunch of people were going to come
00:54:21
to get him like everybody in the whole world probably knew what he just done and that they're going to come up there
00:54:27
they're going to arrest him they're going to attack him they're going to kill him any number of those things
00:54:32
right and we heard that with BTK Dennis Raider would say that often when he would go out and he would kill somebody
00:54:37
or kill multiple people he felt like in the first 48 Hours afterwards that the police were just going to show up at any
00:54:45
time at his door knocking and saying hey we know what you did Buddy now you're arrested it's like this paranoia sets in
00:54:53
yeah that's interesting and so Ed said that in that situation he was going to shoot and kill
00:55:02
anyone that would have approached the the farm or the house at that time that was his mindset at the time so we almost
00:55:11
have to count our blessings here in some form right because he's out on a 17 Acre
00:55:16
Farm out in kind of the middle of nowhere if he were in a major city when he had done this can you imagine all the
00:55:25
innocent people that weren't coming to get him that would have probably have been killed that day I mean you even
00:55:30
something as simple as the person delivering the mail right but then we'd have a scenario where it would be he'd
00:55:36
be a Mas murderer and they would have caught him and then the other the serial killings would have never happen
00:55:45
well that's tough to say that's tough to say not tough to say what I what I'm assuming is that in the 60s 64 if if you
00:55:55
had a guy that went on a rampage going around killing people in a city that the cops are going to come and arrest that
00:56:01
individual yes but essentially isn't that what ended up happening and what I mean by that is that okay so we get
00:56:10
lucky that there's nobody else there and at some point his paranoia it it wears off and he calls his mother and explains
00:56:17
what he had done and he is going to be picked up like you said he gets arrested for killing his grandparents right keer
00:56:25
was committed to the atesa state hospital for the criminally insane all right Captain I want to let
00:56:42
everybody out there know I received a lot of great emails several people asking about specific cases to cover I
00:56:49
mention a few of them here one the honey and Barry Sherman case the ti Lewis case
00:56:54
the am mahalic case and Laura spor I want to point out that we did cover all of these cases already and you can find
00:57:02
all of our back catalog it's a huge back catalog we're over 260 episodes strong now you can get our back catalog for
00:57:10
free and listen to those cases on the Stitcher app we also have a show on Stitcher premium called off the Record
00:57:16
it's $5 a month and you get every premium show on Stitcher premium all right we will talk more ed keer The
00:57:23
Co-Ed Killer tomorrow back here in the garage until then everybody be good be kind and don't
00:57:37
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