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GameChanger [Music] [Applause] [Music] welcome to True Crime garage wherever you are whatever you're doing thanks for
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we're on Twitter we're on Facebook and we're on Instagram @ truecrimegarage and that is enough of
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the business all right everybody gather around grab a chair grab a beer let's talk some true crime
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[Music] Mike Morford is a true crime writer blogger researcher and podcast host he
00:03:59
co-hosts the True Crime podcast criminology he has extensively researched and consulted on the Zodiac
00:04:06
Killer and Golden State killer cases the morph as he is often affectionately referred to as is an expert on all
00:04:14
things Zodiac Killer and all things Golden State killer so Mike welcome to the garage and I want to start off by
00:04:21
asking you why are those two cases so important to you you've spent years researching both why those cases well
00:04:30
thanks off uh for inviting me to come on it's it's a pleasure and uh you guys are
00:04:36
one of the people one of the teams that inspired me to become a podcaster so thank you for that the Zodiac case I I
00:04:43
started out on actually reading about it in high school I was one of those weird
00:04:48
teenagers in the 80s that just the name zodiac and the Persona that came with it
00:04:55
I want to learn a little bit more about it so I had a book on serial killers that I read and and then I got the book
00:05:00
zodiac by Robert greith you know from there I just read it and did a book report on it and the the teacher wasn't
00:05:07
too happy that I picked that as a subject to write a book report on but you know something just the Sinister
00:05:14
aspect of of that case just grabbed me and the fact that someone would call themselves zodiac and write letters to
00:05:22
the press and then attack people wearing an executioner Hood just really reeled me in and I just it sort of stuck and
00:05:30
grew up watching Unsolved Mysteries and stuff like that but the the Zodiac was one thing that really really I attached
00:05:37
to and and stuck with before the Golden State killer ears ons you know the case with so many names was solved Joseph
00:05:44
James D'Angelo has been arrested a man who is I take a lot of joy out of seeing how frail he looks these days hopefully
00:05:53
his time is coming to an end soon he's like 75 or so years old when you started diving into the Golden State killer case
00:06:02
was that you kind of looking for some more zodiac cases I mean zodiac claimed that he would go on to kill and kill
00:06:12
again and he kept taunting us sending Communications with a growing number on it were you look looking for additional
00:06:20
zodiac cases is that what led you to Golden State killer not really there the Golden State killer before the East area
00:06:28
rapist and IR the thousand names he had I I was aware of the case because of some other researchers that thought they
00:06:37
might be connected to the Zodiac case I never did they're two different kinds of
00:06:42
killers and their MO and and just totally end opposite ends of the spectrum but I was aware of the case and
00:06:51
I used to communicate an email back and forth with the late Michelle magnam who obviously wrote pretty impactful book on
00:06:58
the Golden State killer case and she had reached out and asked if I had any interest in poking around in the Golden
00:07:06
State killer case and I told her you know thanks but I'm sort of wrapped up in all things zodiac at the time so she
00:07:13
went on down her rabbit holes in the Golden State killer case and then after she passed away I sort of reflected and
00:07:22
felt guilty that I hadn't taken her up on that offer so I sort of dove into the case and you know I knew different
00:07:29
people that were investigators and they opened some doors for me and I became friends with some of the survivors and
00:07:37
and victims of D'Angelos and that's how I sort of went down that that path do we
00:07:43
have an idea of how the Zodiac came up with his name or is it just something random well that's and that's sort of
00:07:50
the thing we don't really know he's the one that gave himself that name in one of his early letters he said this is the
00:07:56
Zodiac speaking and he signed most of of his letters with a a Crosshair looking cross Circle and there's a watch that's
00:08:08
a zodiac name brand watch and it has a Crosshair logo as its sort of as its symbol so if you put those together that
00:08:16
seems to me like the most likely place that it came from but there's all kinds of theories that he was maybe into the
00:08:23
astrology and stuff like that yeah and we see things like mathematics coordinates on maps
00:08:29
astrology of course horoscopes have been famous and popular throughout time especially in the late 60s so there's
00:08:38
all kinds of thoughts that can be applied to how this individual came up with the name obviously he's going to
00:08:45
want to pick something that sounds ominous he wants to be threatening and terroristic almost in in nature and so
00:08:54
it almost seems fitting to pick such a vague name but also something that sounds sounds sounds a little evil or at
00:09:01
least mysterious yeah that's that's my take on it as well now we all know that Killers can Inspire other Killers or at
00:09:08
least they tend to imitate one another on occasion and as far as the Zodiac goes some cases that come to mind
00:09:16
immediately for me are Like Son of Sam I've always kind of thought of him as a zodiac wannabe kind of a
00:09:24
sloppier dumb down version of the zodiac the Phantom kill case out of Tex Arcana sounds like early zodiac type
00:09:35
stuff and then just the idea of writing the letters and communicating with law enforcement and the the Press I mean
00:09:44
that takes us all the way back to Jack the Ripper what do you take Mike from any of these other Killers out there
00:09:50
what do you think zodiac took from any of these other Killers well with the attacks of of people in some of those
00:09:57
areas like on Lovers Lane where the Phantom killer struck or Son of Sam struck those are easy opportunities and
00:10:06
to find people that aren't paying attention they're out in isolated areas they're easy targets and I think that's
00:10:14
perhaps why he search for people like that and so I went searching for different cases across the United States
00:10:21
with Lovers Lane scenario attacks and they just started piling up so so many I couldn't keep track so that's that's a
00:10:30
trend that's that's been going on early back as far as back as the early 1900s where people would be attacked the key
00:10:38
difference is is Someone Like Son of Sam or Jack the Ripper sending letters and notes and
00:10:44
correspondences that's very rare So when zodiac did that you know that was rare you can go through hundreds and hundreds
00:10:53
and hundreds of cases in California and and there were lots of bad guys running around but most most of them didn't want
00:11:00
to communicate with police they wanted to stick to their own their own attacks and and not give the police anything to
00:11:07
work with whereas zodiac seemed to Crave the press and I think that actually took
00:11:12
over as his main motivation and and comparing that to the Golden State killer case for example Joseph
00:11:20
D'Angelo didn't really taunt the police or newspapers he taunted victims because
00:11:25
he liked reliving the pain that he inflicted on them so he would call them years afterwards but a little bit of a
00:11:32
different thrill for him versus zodiac wanting to see his name in the newspapers I think that was a key
00:11:39
difference the first confirmed attack for the Zodiac at Lake Herman Road was in essence a success for the killer he
00:11:50
achieved what he set out to or what we can believe he set out to achieve anyway he successfully attacked and killed both
00:11:57
of the victims and didn't find himself in a situation where there was much of an eyewitness to identify him as the
00:12:06
killer with the exception of one witness saying they they possibly saw a white vehicle parked near David Faraday's
00:12:16
vehicle on that night that leads us to a similar but slightly different situation
00:12:23
at the next confirmed attack at Blue Rock Springs where he is unsuccessful in the sense that he leaves one of the
00:12:31
victims alive he intended to kill both of them we know that based off of his phone call he's calling to report a
00:12:38
double murder not realizing that he left one of the the victims alive Mike maou one thing I found interesting about this
00:12:49
attack in particular variations of stories uh and and what went down how the attack went down and just the the
00:12:59
couple of events leading up to the two of them being parked at Blue Rock Springs Park can you take us through
00:13:07
maybe not necessarily the changing stories or the different versions but it looked to me Mike that most of these
00:13:14
different versions are coming from Mike Mao is is that correct and and what are your feelings on on the different
00:13:20
variations of these stories yeah Mike Mao's story has changed a lot over the years from July 19 69 when it happened
00:13:30
till recently he was featured in a 2007 documentary that came out with the Zodiac movie DVD release and his story
00:13:40
changed quite a bit in essence early on he said that he had been picked up by Darlene faren and they decided to go to
00:13:51
Mr Ed's a local hang out that was popular with you know most younger people for whatever reason Darlene got
00:13:59
creeped out while there and decided to drive away and go get some privacy and they decided to go to Blue Rock Springs
00:14:06
Park which is very dark and again it's one of those areas where people might go to hang out to make out whatever um and
00:14:14
that's where they wound up some key things that happened were after they were there for a couple minutes some
00:14:21
some kids came in threw some firecrackers and stayed there raised hell for about 5 minutes and then left
00:14:27
but just after that a car came in and pulled up next to Darlene's car and sort of just sat there and Darlene and Mike
00:14:38
had the conversation do you know that person who is that and they didn't really know and after a minute or two
00:14:45
the car drove off so they sat there listening to the radio talking and then about 5 minutes later car came back that
00:14:52
they Mike thinks was the same car and it came into the parking lot pulled up directly behind them them someone got
00:14:59
out shined a bright light into Darlene's car blinding essentially Darlene and Mike and then he walked up to Mike's
00:15:07
side and they actually thought it was the police so they proceeded to start getting their licenses out and Mike
00:15:15
looked up and was shot immediately through the window and Darlene was shot both of them were shot several times
00:15:22
that's been consistent for for the most part the shooter got back in his car and
00:15:27
was about to leave even Mike started flailing around after being shot and the shooter got back out of the car and
00:15:35
fired two more shots into the Darlene's car hitting Mike again and Darlene and then this time he drove away that's
00:15:43
always been consistent that's what he said early on but in the in the documentary years later there's some
00:15:49
things that change he he mentions that they were being chased and pursued from Mr EDS at high rates of speed and and
00:15:59
that's not what's in the police report nothing like that he says that they just decided to go there instead darling was
00:16:06
driving and then early on they didn't know who the shter was when they were having conversation amongst themselves
00:16:13
but then he injects hey the name was Richard she said something about Richard and if you watch this documentary it's
00:16:20
plain to see that he's suffering from maybe mental illness maybe some kind of addiction I don't know I'm not I don't
00:16:27
know what he might be suffering from but I think that's affected his account of what's happened over the last you know
00:16:34
50 years in his initial report he's saying that the vehicle was very similar to Darlene so it would have either been
00:16:45
a Chevy Corvair or others have said maybe a Ford Mustang because they would have had similar body type and he says
00:16:53
it was pretty much the same color as Darlene's maybe a little bit lighter what are your thoughts on the vehicle
00:17:00
description well I think it because it's so dark out there um and he's probably his intentions are to make out with
00:17:08
Darlene probably wasn't paying a lot of attention and and I think a lot of cars back then looked a lot Alik so for him
00:17:16
not to be able to pinpoint the details of the car I I totally get that I understand that but I think based on
00:17:23
what he said it did have some kind of similar features to Darlene's own car the thing that jumps off the page to me
00:17:30
in regards to the first two attacks not only are they very close in proximity I think it was roughly about 2 miles
00:17:37
distance between the first double murder and then the double murder attempt that
00:17:42
left Mike mou alive when you cross reference the events of that night the stories I found Mike say that both
00:17:51
couples went to Mr Ed's restaurant and Drive-In prior to going in parking and I mean that just jumps off the page to me
00:18:02
because I'm I'm sitting there thinking if I'm some dude in my late 20s or however old zodiac may have been at the
00:18:08
time if you're looking for a car involved in Young Love Mr EDS makes a perfect sense to to
00:18:18
park there hang out there in in the dark hours of a weekend night or a Friday night for that matter and find your prey
00:18:27
there and follow them to where they end up parked yeah that's that's the happening place back then was Mr EDS you
00:18:34
know there's an interesting Connection in that one of the lake Herman Road Witnesses just not long before the
00:18:42
shooting on the road that night worked at Mr EDS um so there's that connection as well one thing that's very different
00:18:49
about the Blue Rock Springs attack in comparison to the lake Herman Road attack is that the Zodiac
00:18:56
then calls the police dispatcher and says hey I just committed a double murder here's
00:19:04
where you're going to find the kids in a brown car and by the way I killed those
00:19:10
kids last Christmas as well there there's a a decent Gap in time minutes missing there about 20 to 30 minutes
00:19:20
based off of our earwitnesses of when the the couple was shot at Blue Rock Springs and when the phone call came
00:19:28
came in what are your thoughts on what Zodiac could have been up to during that time frame I've always found it a bit
00:19:34
bizarre we know he wants to report it or else he wouldn't have called it in but it doesn't seem like he made a Mad Dash
00:19:41
from the crime scene to the pay phone which would have been depending on which route you use roughly 7 to 11 minutes
00:19:49
travel time he didn't make a Mad Dash to get to that pay phone any thoughts on that Mike yeah it's that's one of the
00:19:55
most interesting things about that attack because the call is probably at least 30 minutes
00:20:01
later probably closer to 40 minutes later um but it's you know rounding it it's around a half hour we can say that
00:20:08
and to go that distance it's it's only a few miles um and the phone booth was at
00:20:14
Springs and tallamy which is you know in a more populated section of town whereas
00:20:20
Blue Rock Springs Park is this dark undeveloped area out out in the valo at the time so
00:20:29
if the Zodiac wanted to get away and make a clean getaway and and just keep driving there's Unlimited phone booths
00:20:37
he could have called from but yet he called from a phone booth in valo which is interesting to me my my opinion is
00:20:45
and I try and put myself in the shoes of of of zodiac when he's doing that is that perhaps he would want to get rid of
00:20:55
his car get rid of his gun stash it because you know I wouldn't want to be driving around in a car with a gun in
00:21:01
there just in case someone saw me so I was thinking maybe he lived close to that phone booth and perhaps put his car
00:21:09
in the yard put his gun in the house and walked to the phone booth but there's you know again that's that's speculation
00:21:15
but he certainly could have made it out of valo if if he didn't live in valo and
00:21:19
wanted to get away and then called uh from a different phone booth do you think he called police to mimic somebody
00:21:26
like Jack the Ripper or or do you think it was simply because I committed these crimes and because it's stranger on
00:21:33
Stranger crimes the police might not make the connection that it was me yeah I think maybe a combination of that I
00:21:42
think number one he wanted the attention he wanted police to know what he had done I think it was a way to rub salt in
00:21:50
the wounds of these police officers to to say hey um I did this I'm bragging about it and and there's nothing you can
00:21:58
do about it the phone booth was actually not far from the police station which was interesting so he might even be able
00:22:05
to see police when they finally got the call racing out of there and maybe got some kind of thrill from
00:22:21
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2023 [Music] do you think that he was local to Vallejo cuz I found it interesting that
00:24:40
in the phone call he doesn't just say Blue Rock Springs Park rather he gives directions to find the victims yeah if I
00:24:48
if I had to guess it's it's almost like he didn't know the name of the Park yeah
00:24:53
he he does direct them pretty well and if he would have said Blue Rock Springs Park obviously they they would have
00:25:00
found it but he gives them specific directions now I I wonder it could be because maybe he does live there he
00:25:07
knows the area and he knows how to direct them there easily but it also could be that he wants him to have no
00:25:14
doubt that he did it and he's going to direct them right to the bodies and at the time he thinks they're they're going
00:25:21
to be dead but you know Mike Mao survived and I think he wanted to get them there as soon as possible so he
00:25:28
could Revel in in what he had done and very interesting as well that given Mike Mao's description of the shooter you
00:25:36
know when the shooter comes back and then shoots Darlene twice and shoots Mike again two more times he's able to
00:25:43
get a description of what this guy looks like and if you know given what took place in the second attack we have to
00:25:51
believe that the first attack with no survivors likely went down very similar so So based off of that we can assume
00:26:00
that in the description Mike gives us Zodiac's not using any type of Disguise at this point and yet the next attack at
00:26:09
Lake Beres is going to be significantly different where the guy is disguised from head to toe is this guy is he
00:26:17
evolving why is he changing well that would on my part that would be speculation but I think that the most
00:26:25
likely reason is he realized after Blue Rock Springs he left eyewitness an eyewitness to the the crime and then the
00:26:34
next attack at at Lake beresa he's attacking during daylight hours so he's already left the witness he knows that
00:26:43
and now he's doing an attack during the daytime so I think maybe to to keep himself from being identified if
00:26:50
something goes wrong or if a witness goes by he's got that hood on and and another reason could be just to scare
00:26:56
the [ __ ] out of the people is attacking because a guy walking up to you with that kind of Executioner's hood on and a
00:27:04
gun in his hand saying everything's going to be okay I you know if it was me in that situation I wouldn't I wouldn't
00:27:10
believe them but he tried to calm them down when he attacked there and that's what he was wearing yeah I almost feel
00:27:16
like it had the mask had two purposes like you said one it's going to scare them more and it seems like
00:27:25
he's loves to see people's reactions but also if if they do survive they can't identify him yeah I think it it
00:27:34
definitely serves multi- purposes and and I think he was very theatrical we know that from a lot of the clues and I
00:27:42
think he probably enjoyed making that hood it had the Zodiac Crosshair logo on the on the chest and he never mentioned
00:27:50
you know two Brian Hart now Cecilia Shephard uh at Lake Bera that he was the Zodiac it never came up
00:27:58
um and and maybe that's cuz if something went wrong he didn't want uh anyone to know that he was the Zodiac by that
00:28:06
point and connect him to another crime but it was you know later determined after he uh wrote on the side of their
00:28:13
Corridor that sort of changed everything and and they knew it was zodiac do you have any thoughts on what the mask was
00:28:20
made out of or the account varied from from Brian he he said it was made with care it wasn't just like some plastic
00:28:28
bag that someone spray painted a white circle on he said that the the Crosshair logo was stitched uh very nicely and
00:28:37
professionally almost on the front and the hood uh was was made with carrot was draped over his entire shoulders and
00:28:47
face and there were a clip on sunglasses that were attached to the to the mask itself so he pointed out that it was
00:28:57
definitely made with care it was made um with some kind of professional uh quality it wasn't just
00:29:06
some some bag that was had white paint on it or something like that that's very interesting because often times with
00:29:14
these serial killers we will find that someone killing in the nature of someone like the Zodiac where they're going out
00:29:22
and they're killing people in a park near the lake or or or at Lake Herman Road or at
00:29:31
the Blue Rock Springs Park they're going out and they're finding their victim and
00:29:37
they're killing them out on the streets or out in public in these you know uh secluded areas usually that suggests
00:29:45
that they cannot kill at home they cannot abduct people and bring them home that they don't have privacy that they
00:29:54
don't have their own place but then everything else that the Zodiac does implies that he does have a certain
00:30:02
level of privacy the making the mask and disguise with care that's something that
00:30:07
took time the putting together the ciphers and the letters that he would later send that takes time and and and
00:30:15
it takes especially with the ciphers and the the letters I've seen it suggested that he probably had what he considered
00:30:23
to be some type of Workshop that maybe maybe if he did live with other people he had to keep under lock and key or or
00:30:31
guarded very tightly but it's it's weird the contrast between the two Natures of
00:30:38
the Beast if you will I've often thought about that but I I also wonder if it's just simply location a lot of those
00:30:46
housing developments in California you know where like these little Cracker Jack siiz houses and they had really
00:30:52
small yards so it could be possible where he's going well I have privacy with with inside my house but I don't
00:30:59
have privacy on the outside cuz the houses are so close together yeah that's an interesting point and in one of his
00:31:07
letters he did mention storing something in his basement and police seized on that and thought maybe that's a clue
00:31:17
because most houses in the Bay Area did not have basements so they thought maybe
00:31:22
he had a little workshop down there someplace where he could get away from anyone else in the house and and Tinker
00:31:28
around down there but then again zodiac wasn't always honest in his letters so it could have been an attempt at
00:31:34
misdirection maybe didn't have a basement but that was something police were interested in I think it it also
00:31:40
goes into what kind of killer he was whereas you know someone like a golden state killer wants to spend time with
00:31:48
his victims stay there terrorize them stretch it out as long as possible get them alone the Zodiac never had an
00:31:57
interest in that kind of activity he wanted to attack quickly and get out so I think perhaps
00:32:05
he never had an intention of bringing them back to his house or something like that I think he was more of a of a
00:32:12
thrill killer that got a thrill out of the attack itself and then later on reliving it I think that gave him some
00:32:20
satisfaction yeah that's very interesting because yes I think he was a thrill killer but I also think he
00:32:27
executed the first murder so easily that by maybe contacting the police it was another rush because it was another
00:32:35
point in the crime where he could get caught yeah and he he was about all about cat and mouse activity with police
00:32:43
and and getting them to engage with him and there's some evidence that he was inspired by comic books and movies like
00:32:52
The Most Dangerous Game and I think he thought of himself as this villain or made himself into this this villain
00:33:01
called zodiac and I I think part of the the fun for him part of the thrill from him was that interaction with police I
00:33:10
mean his murders confirmed murders anyhow they range from December 68 until October of 69 but then he's got a letter
00:33:20
writing campaign that stretches until 1974 so he at some point it seemed like the thrill of uh the interaction with
00:33:31
the police and the Press was his letter writing and not so much the murders so it seemed like he got some kind of
00:33:37
pleasure out of out of that part of it could you list some of these comic books you think the Zodiac was reading yeah
00:33:43
there's there's one called and it's a Tim Holt comic book and and to give you a little bit of a backstory he sent a
00:33:53
Halloween card to reporter Paul Avery and in that card it was written by fire by rope I'm trying to remember it off
00:34:04
the top of my head but it was laid out in in a specific image and there's a comic book by Tim Holt it's a DC Comics
00:34:13
one and I don't remember the title of it but it's if if you Google it you'll find
00:34:17
it and there's a wheel on it and death by fire death by knife death by gun death by rope it's the same things
00:34:25
mentioned in um the the card to Avery so from that it's almost definite that's where he had to have got that from when
00:34:38
you base that when you base on some of the other Clues he mentioned uh the short story The Most Dangerous Game he
00:34:45
makes references to theatrical stuff like the Macado um so it seems like he was in his own Fantasy World um and this
00:34:58
this person that he created this Persona I I really think he he wanted to be some
00:35:03
kind of arch villain or be known as as one yeah I just looked up the Tim Holt comic so it looks like it's it's
00:35:09
actually titled Tim Hol I think he's supposed to be maybe the hero and it's issue number 30 according to what I
00:35:17
found but it's you're right it's the you have a man there and I guess his name is
00:35:23
red mask he's tied up and there's a wheel of chance behind him and it's as you said death by gun death by knife
00:35:31
death by rope and yeah it's very very theatrical very zodiac like and it appears that this comic may have some
00:35:41
value because it has some linkage to uh the Zodiac name well and also around that time period there was a lot of
00:35:50
comics that were you know these Detective Comics that's where we eventually get Batman from I wonder if
00:35:57
there's other Comics that he was influenced by that people just haven't got the references yet yeah that could
00:36:03
definitely be the case and I I think at on the very least we can tell that he's into fantasy stuff you know between the
00:36:14
theater and the the comic books he's got perhaps he's living in a uh a fantasy world you know when when I I look at it
00:36:24
as when most of these victims are young couples being attacked they're out enjoying each other's company making out
00:36:31
doing whatever those couples do he's home reading comic books and this is his world uh so he goes out and Strikes
00:36:38
against those people that are doing the things that he wishes he could do yeah it's very and the captain and I were
00:36:45
talking about this earlier it's very comic book theatrical like with the Zodiac he's given himself this name the
00:36:53
Zodiac he's given himself a logo the crosshairs and then he's supplying all these
00:37:00
threats to Via the uh newspapers and such and then the costume at Lake beresa it's almost I mean that's that's what a
00:37:09
superhero super villain is the the name the logo the costume now with you had mention the confirmed five and there's a
00:37:20
lot of suspicion that there are other attacks and we can get into that later but lay down for us why these are the
00:37:27
confirmed five murders of the Zodiac Killer they're they're linked by emo and by
00:37:35
handwriting there's some latent fingerprints along the way there's some palm prints on some of the letters but
00:37:44
police really haven't said publicly if any of those prints from various scenes or various letters match each other so
00:37:51
we know that they're linked by by handwriting and by Theo you know in Lake Herman Road once he claims
00:38:01
responsibility for that along with uh the July 4th attack you know he we have a handwritten letter he's detailing both
00:38:10
crimes he's accurately describing both crime scenes so those two are linked together then when you get to Lake
00:38:17
beresa you know he's doesn't say he's zodiac but he's wearing a zodiac cross symbol on his outfit and as he pleas the
00:38:27
scene he takes the time to write a taunting message on Brian hartnell's door and it has the zodiac symbol and
00:38:36
the writing matches the writing and the letters and then we move forward to the murder of Paul Stein which is the most
00:38:44
unlike the first sets of crimes here we have another letter so the handwriting again matches the
00:38:51
previous ones this time he actually sent a piece of bloody shirt to the Press along with the letter so you know he's
00:39:00
confirming that yes I killed him here's a piece of his bloody shirt they verified it was so you have all of these
00:39:07
different letters and the MMO of calling and and writing to the Press linking everything here not like we have a DNA
00:39:16
like we would have today uh or clear-cut fingerprints um but all of this stuff combined tells them that the same person
00:39:25
was all of these different scenes and is responsible for all these crimes do you
00:39:29
have a ballpark number of crimes that you think the zodiac is responsible for or do you think these five are the only
00:39:35
signature crimes from the Zodiac well there's crimes that he definitely hinted at that he was involved and and I think
00:39:43
he had a habit of trying to catch uh attention for other cases to to prop himself up and uh make it look like he
00:39:50
was even more of a a villain than he actually was you know I try not to wander too far out of the the the five
00:39:59
murder victims we know of but you know I do look at some earlier crimes uh in that area and then in Southern
00:40:09
California especially there's some earlier crimes that could definitely be him but there's so many bad guys running
00:40:16
around in California at the time there's so much crime that it's hard to to go off because then you start looking at
00:40:25
well this crime looks exod and this one has some aspects um so I try to stick with the ones that have the closest MMO
00:40:32
to to what we know zodiac did what are your thoughts on zodiac mentioning Deer Lodge Montana to the victims at Lake
00:40:40
beresa I think that's a a really important clue but the the thing I need to point out is is that Deer Lodge is
00:40:49
not necessarily what he said Brian obviously was shaken up he was scared he was badly wounded um so he when he was
00:41:01
telling police word by word the conversation he said it was something like a two-word name in Montana like and
00:41:08
he's trying to you know come up with ideas and someone suggested Deer Lodge Montana and he said yeah that might be
00:41:16
it but there's there's been reports that it might have been a farm Lodge it could
00:41:20
have been a Red Lodge uh something with two words in in the name of of the town so it's well while most people settled
00:41:28
on it being dear Lodge it's not 100% proof that he did say Deer Lodge but you know there were no Escape prisoners as
00:41:36
the story that he gave them at the time from Deer Lodge at that time so I think it's it could have been just hey I'm
00:41:44
going to tell these people's story about a something I read three years ago about
00:41:50
some kind of escape and I'll tell them you know just to calm them down and get them to cooperate and and what he told
00:41:56
them worked and they cooperated yeah some suspect that zodiac was a bit of a master of misdirection and therefore
00:42:03
dear Lodge Montana or saying just the state of Montana in general would be another example that he might be trying
00:42:11
to misdirect people should somebody survive because what Zodiac has learned about himself by the time of the lake
00:42:19
beresa attack is that he's not perfect that he did leave a Survivor a surviving victim
00:42:26
in his second confirmed attack with Mike Mao surviving that attack and let's take
00:42:33
that a step further because there's some thought too that with the brown car because Vallejo police said they
00:42:42
actively said this in the newspapers at the time they gave a a brief description
00:42:46
of a a young white man and a brown vehicle that they were looking for at the time and he later zodiac later in a
00:42:57
letter confirms this brown car saying oh well yeah somebody saw me in this pay phone
00:43:05
when the when I hung up the the phone the the phone rang and this drew his attention to me and that's when this
00:43:12
witness saw me in the pay phone and saw my brown car and I love the idea of maybe as you pointed out it's dark Mike
00:43:24
Mao has just been shot so several times he's traumatized maybe he doesn't know the color of the vehicle couldn't see it
00:43:33
and maybe zodiac loves this and goes oh they're looking for a a white guy in his
00:43:38
late 20s in a brown car oh well I'll confirm for them that I have a brown car when in fact I I do not yeah and what
00:43:46
what perfect way to divert the police and get them looking down a totally blind alley and he and why would you
00:43:52
describe the witness that that so he says that there was a a a black man that was shaby dressed saw him in the phone
00:44:01
booth they never identified anyone that reported seeing someone in that phone booth but it sounds to me like that
00:44:08
could easily be I'm going to make this fake witness up so they're spinning their wheels looking for this witness
00:44:12
that doesn't exist I don't know why any anyone that had just killed or thought he killed two people would volunteer
00:44:19
that information willingly I always F thought too given the both of the first attacks took place on Friday night in or
00:44:28
around Vallejo again only separated by about 2 miles of distance or so I always thought that that in a sense was a bit
00:44:36
of misdirection as well that he he thought that he may have found the perfect place to kill it worked out the
00:44:43
first time let's kill there again now people think that I'm local to Vallejo and that's why I always felt like he
00:44:52
purposely made the call from a Vallejo pay phone yet didn't know the name of the park where where he shot the two
00:45:00
kids it it seemed to me this is the early stages of some of this misdirection yeah it could it definitely
00:45:07
could be that and I I sort of go the other direction I sort of go with you a lot of killers start out close to home
00:45:14
and then expand from there you know you've got someone mentioning these two areas I'm going to attack they're so
00:45:23
close together like like you're saying and then call from the the the phone booth in the same town what better way
00:45:30
to get people looking in valo one thing that's interesting is just about all of the letters zodiac mailed were
00:45:40
postmarked on weekdays from San Francisco and and most of his attacks the exception of Paul Stein were on
00:45:48
weekends outside of San Francisco so it does he live in San Francisco and he hunts on the weekends in valo or is it
00:45:59
the reverse does he live in valo and he's working in San Francisco during the week I think one of the two is is the
00:46:06
most likely scenario if you guys had to bet would you bet that zodiac is single and living alone or do you think zodiac
00:46:15
is married I wrestle with that especially in the wake of the Golden State killer case I you know I never
00:46:22
thought the Golden State killer was going to be a cop I never thought he would have a wife and kids so that sort
00:46:27
of has made me go back and forth on the fence with zodiac I I would tend to think that he's a loner that wants to be
00:46:38
out with a girl on a date in in a Lover's Lane parked in a car but he's not he's the one stalking those couples
00:46:46
and attacking them so I tend to think that he he was one of those loner types that didn't have successful
00:46:54
relationships but again after seeing what happened with the Golden State killer case nothing would
00:46:59
surprise me he could have had a big family and a a nice job and everything else well I think uh I think Mike is
00:47:08
right and I think that we can see some of that in his crimes itself we we definitely see Overkill in the women
00:47:17
and that's why we have more female victims murder victims and we have two situations where he
00:47:26
attacks a couple and and twice a male victim survives so the female is definitely the receiving the brunt of
00:47:35
his anger in those attacks and as Mike is pointing out he is he's he's attacking and killing essentially what
00:47:45
he envies Young Love parked in a car somewhere is what he would have like to have been doing when he was a teenager
00:47:52
or in his early 20s he wasn't capable or wasn't success F in that realm and so he
00:47:59
this is this is his lesson to you uh general public this is what you get when you park out in the middle of nowhere in
00:48:07
the dark at night in these lovers Lanes this is this is what you get this is the
00:48:13
lesson to be learned don't be out there at night they're achieving something he wished to achieve but did not and then
00:48:22
when you take it to how is he living who may be living with I think that he probably had some brief relationships
00:48:33
with women and they they failed and didn't work out and that only added to his anger toward the the female gender
00:48:44
and I think that a lot of his actions at least once we get past the double homicide or I'm sorry the the second
00:48:52
attack at Blue Rock Springs so this would be now we're we're at July 4th 1969 I think
00:49:00
after this point he he has a certain level of privacy he has a certain uh ability to spend a lot of time working
00:49:09
on these letters these ciphers the costume that he built for lake beresa so he has time now that may mean maybe he
00:49:18
lived with his mom alone and and had the run of the house for most of the time but yeah I think that's what's
00:49:25
interesting about the makeup of of this guy I think he had some level of privacy
00:49:30
and maybe that's because he was unsuccessful with with women or traditional type relationships well and
00:49:37
since you bring that up my question do you put a zodiac uh younger or older than 30 I can say with all confidence
00:49:46
today he's older than 30 oh I'm just saying because it it seems to me like somebody that you know any
00:49:54
friend of of mine or or people I've talked to that you know look back on high school and that it wasn't the best
00:50:01
time in their life normally by the time they're 30 they're they're over that and
00:50:06
they could really care less they don't hold a lot of resentment towards that that's why I always wondered is zodiac
00:50:14
in like mid 20s or late 20s and he's still uh angry about his unsuccessful attempts with women well you have to be
00:50:22
an extremely angry individual to do any of the things that he's doing so he's he's not normal like the normal people
00:50:29
that you just discussed he he's not going to get over any of this and that's obvious from his crimes so wi with the
00:50:39
in regards to his age one we have several crimes where he's described as being in his 20s late
00:50:50
20s maybe 25 to 35 this is from surviving victims and from uh the phone calls he made
00:50:58
where the dispatchers are saying he sounded to be of this age 25 to 35 Mike uh you you take it from there yeah I I
00:51:07
know that the Nappa dispatcher uh the police officer that took the call from him after Lake barasa described him as a
00:51:18
student voice um uh someone in their in their early 20s Brian Hartnell described
00:51:25
something in along those lines too not a real deep mature voice but more of a a younger person but again people have all
00:51:35
kinds of voices and and you can't always put a a voice with a face when you see it so we can't always go by that but
00:51:42
then you've got the eyewitnesses as you talked about and the possibility that officer Falk uh saw zodiac after Paul
00:51:51
Stein's murder there he thinks he's a little bit older and it it's interesting uh in in the sketch that came out of
00:51:59
zodiac after killing Paul Stein the original estimate in the original sketch was estimating the age to be 25 to 35
00:52:10
and when you when they amended it it moved it up from 35 to 45 so I I sort of look at the 25 to
00:52:20
45 window I know that's a big spread but I I sort of feel that sometimes some of the things he does is is very
00:52:28
juvenile um I look towards a younger person and and other times some of the things that he's interested in seem like
00:52:37
they might be more of a of a mature person um so like the makado Opera you know like nowadays I try and compare it
00:52:46
I don't think there's any kids out there today listening to Opera and if the same
00:52:50
thing is true back in 1969 I would I would think that that might be more more mature person so I
00:52:56
sort of wrestle myself with with whether he's younger or older yeah he definitely
00:53:01
did some things that come across to me as very immature I've said it before I'll say it again I don't trust anybody
00:53:10
that doesn't use their real name well and Captain brought up a good point too he he said that it's almost if
00:53:18
Zodiac's heart wasn't in the actual killing he he'd leave before people were actually dead instead of staying there
00:53:26
you know ensuring they were dead or shooting them in the head it's almost like he was squeamish about that part um
00:53:34
and I I think that goes back to he is playing this villain he's putting this villain out there the villain has to
00:53:42
have victims so he's got to do that part even though he may not be committed to it but after a while he realizes hey
00:53:48
I've built this Persona up I built this reputation up people know I mean business I'm a killer I don't even have
00:53:55
have to kill anyone anymore now I can just send letters and I'm going to get the attention I've been craving that I
00:54:00
didn't get in my in my everyday life just by writing letters now well there's a good chance he almost got caught in
00:54:06
the Paul Stein attack the taxi cab driver yeah we see a lot of times with serial killers
00:54:13
that they take souvenirs from their victims or like you said in the Golden State killer case he's harassing victims
00:54:21
zodiac is harassing police officers it's he didn't seem to take souvenirs it's almost like his victims didn't matter so
00:54:31
much to him it it wasn't personal towards the victim yeah there's no real evidence of him taking any kind of
00:54:38
souvenirs taking belongings of the victims uh we don't see any of that whereas uh the Golden State killer would
00:54:46
do that kind of stuff so definitely two kinds of killers and it seems like you know someone like D'Angelo has a a um a
00:54:55
connection a permanent connection to the victim whereas zodiac maybe they were just in the wrong place at the wrong
00:55:02
time and he needed to to kill someone to get credit for [Music] it so much more to get to tomorrow
00:55:20
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00:55:34
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