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foreign [Music] foreign garage wherever you are whatever you are doing thanks for listening I'm your host
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Nick and with me as always is a man that's in possession of the very last can of who hash he is the captain and
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five star reviews on iTunes that's enough of the business Captain everybody gather round grab a chat share grab a
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beer let's talk some true crime [Music] so Captain what happened to Gene Hart well let me tell you
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let me tell you all about it okay sit back and relax Captain's taking over the son of a [ __ ] died
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yeah after his trial he was immediately returned to prison to finish serving his
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300 year sentence on June 4th 1980 while working out in the prison yard he dropped dead at age 34.
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an autopsy States officially the cause of death was a massive heart attack he had severely clogged arteries yeah but
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isn't there some conspiracy that maybe he was drugged yeah and we will get into that but the autopsy States officially
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the cause of death was a massive heart attack uh Hart's attorney Garvin Isaacs was quickly convinced that there was no
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foul play saying quote his death was natural he said that he looked into it himself the medical examiner found 96 to
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98 percent blockage in three of the arteries moreover Isaac said Hart had a family history of heart problems his
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brother died at age 38 of a heart attack and his father also died at a young age
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of a heart condition right significantly though Hart's autopsy showed that indeed
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his vasectomy had failed he was still producing sperm after heart's death the doctor compared sperm
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taken from the murder autopsies with samples of heart sperm he earlier recovered from heart's prison underwear
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and he said that nothing he found changed the opinion that he had stated at the trial samples from heart and from
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the bodies of the three girls revealed quote similar numbers of deformed or decomposed sperm right and as you were
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mentioning conspiracy theories about heart being killed well they were abundant and the thoughts were that he
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was either killed by prison inmates or secretly by vengeful law enforcement right which we hear this all the time I
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mean Hearts victims if if he's responsible for these murders the victims were kids and so there is
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you know kind of a boy they call that prison Justice yes that takes place according to Dick
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Wilkerson the former OSBI investigator who wrote the book Someone cry for the children a large amount of cyanide was
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confiscated from prisoners at the McAllister State Prison the day before Hart died
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over 1 000 people attended Gene Hart's funeral and no one else was ever charged with the Girl Scout murders no one else
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being ever charged but we have a list of other suspects we need to go through yeah the guilt or innocence of Gene Hart
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is still one of the most hotly debated topics in Oklahoma legal circles today but if Gene Hart didn't do it who did
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so Camp Scott officials reported seeing strange men around the camp in the days before the murders Ben Woodward saw some
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men near a stream running through the camp and on the night of the murder Barbara
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and Richard day left the camp to buy milk around 7 30 p.m yeah they later reported seeing a car parked with four
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occupants right outside the gates to the camp the possibilities of others seem endless
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unless you think about the familiarity killer would have had to have had with the layout of Camp Scott
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then even those that believed that Gene Hart was the killer question if heart could have done it by himself did he act
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alone yeah well you have three victims and this is what makes it difficult because how could one person subdue all
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three little victims at once and then three killed and carried some distance away all with barely making a sound
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right plus we also have the multiple shoe prints that were found supporters of this Theory also cite the
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widely held belief that the hands of two of the slain girls were bound using different knots which is debatable
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the medical examiner cited only a double half hitch in the cords around the necks
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of Michelle and Denise while someone else described a slip knot perhaps the not disparity if it exists
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at all comes from the fact that Denise and Michelle were tied up in a very different manner
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so let's get into some of these different in some of these possible suspects captain
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we have Bill Stevens William a Stevens who was 22 at the time of the murders he became a key figure at the murder
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trial of Gene Hart he was the man whom Garvin Isaacs pointed out as the actual murderer of the three girls
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at the trial Joyce Payne and her son testified for the defense that Stevens came to their home the day the Girl
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Scouts were killed with scratches on his arms and red stains on his boots they also linked the red flashlight found at
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the murder scene to Stephen saying it was theirs and Stevens borrowed it right which would make sense because if Hart
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stole anything from the farmer the farmer is not convinced that that flashlight came from him right and the
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woman's boyfriend Dwayne Peters told Oklahoma authorities that Stevens once claimed to have killed the girls while
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having war game hallucinations he said he surveilled Camp Scott just like Vietnam and picked out the most
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isolated tent so when he was fight fighting uh Charlie back in the day did he also rape Charlie
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I I cannot during his war games I cannot attest to that but Peter said that Stevens told him this while the two were
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driving around the area in October of 1977 even demonstrating how he covered one of the girl's mouths with his hand
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Peter said he refused to believe Stevens thinking he was bluffing until he saw him abduct a woman be and rape her this
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was indeed the crime for which Stevens and Peters were later incarcerated in Kansas only Stevens raped the woman the
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woman was left to die in her car trunk but survived she identified Stevens and Peters in addition a young girl scout
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Kimberly Lewis testified that she saw a man who looked like Stevens at the camp the night of the murders needless to say
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this eyewitness ID by a young girl of someone seen in an instant in Pitch Black Knight was and is suspect a
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further other problem for the heart defense was Stevens maintained he was working in Seminole the day the girls
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were killed at Camp Scott Steven's employers confirmed his story with a canceled paycheck and a time card
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furthermore at the heart trial forensic chemist Anne Reed said hair found from one of the victims and in the dead
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girl's tent didn't match samples of Steven's hair Peters eventually recanted his tale of Stephen's confession and
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said his girlfriend Joyce Payne fed him bits and pieces of information from the news about the case so his story linking
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Stevens to the crime would sound more credible their plan was for Peters to get paroled or at least transferred to
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Oklahoma as a reward for providing information on his fellow inmate Joyce Payne and her son Larry Short
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were charged with perjury she pled no contest to A reduced misdemeanor charge and was sentenced in
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early 1981 to a suspended six-month term the charge against her son was dismissed
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Bill Stevens was stabbed to death in his cell at the Kansas State penitentiary in
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Lansing in 1984 at the age of 27. so maybe it's possible that he's a little office rocker because of war and maybe
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by being so that causes death in prison if that makes any sense another suspect whose name was circulated was convicted
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child rapist and murderer Carl Lee Myers in his murder trial the state presented
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evidence of Meyer's convictions of assault with intent to rape a 12 year old girl in 1976 for which he received
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20 years two sexual assaults in 1981 against a 13 year old relative and in 1990 conviction in Rogers County for
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murder of Cindy Marzano John Russell an ex-convict who professed to be making a film about the Girl Scout case said the
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late Myers confessed to him about the Girl Scout murders once they were sharing adjacent cells Russell gave the
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information to OSBI which would say only that the agents checked out the lead Myers died in 2013 of natural causes
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while awaiting execution for the 1996 killing of Marzano there is no evidence linking him to these crimes right and we
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have the a evidence right they collected the evidence they still have it so we can test it not
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exactly then we have a truck driver from West Memphis Arkansas name unknown he testified at the trial that he was
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questioned five times about his whereabouts that night other than this statement from The Trial we have nothing
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other than this linking him as a suspect yeah but I'd like to know more about this individual because you're claiming
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that possibly he's responsible for the death of three children roughly the age of well age eight nine and ten and then
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In The West Memphis Three case we have three victims all of the same age of eight all three bound it's just very
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similar I mean I know it's you know a decade apart but it's also you got a truck driver and the crime in West
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Memphis happened right by a car wash which had truck washing capabilities right so it's kind of interesting there John
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Clayton Potts this is a cousin of Gene Hart who was 21 at the time of the Girl Scout murders he was arrested in 1979
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for the repeated rape of a 13 year old girl who was also his cousin he lived near Camp Scott and was questioned at
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the time of the murders but ruled out as a suspect according to the osbi's Tim Lemke
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what's interesting is this quote from Sheriff Weaver Potts identified mugshots of heart and had heart at the scene
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within a matter of hours of the time of the murders that when they were committed Weaver has never explained
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exactly what information Potts gave them about about heart many believe that pots
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was the informant whose information led to Hart's arrest at the shack Ricky Greene was in prison in New Mexico
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for burglary but escaped and was found in Oklahoma green confessed to the killings telling OSBI agent Jack lay
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that he and two other men were high on drugs when they committed the crimes green was ruled out as a suspect because
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he failed five polygraph tests so let's talk about these last two individuals so
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John Clayton Potts who was the cousin of Gene Hart right he's 21 at the time of the murders he's arrested in 79 for
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raping a young girl so he has similar Tendencies to what we would expect from our suspect
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the interesting thing about him is how does he get on this list well one we know that he was involved in the
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investigation early on because we have that interesting quote from Sheriff Weaver saying Potts identified mug shots
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of heart and could place heart within the scene of the crime within a matter of hours
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right from the time of the murder so around the time of the murders that they were committed
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what's what's interesting about John Clayton Potts is we know he's an associate of Gene Hart he's his cousin
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and he claims to have seen Gene Hart within hours of the murders so he can be a suspect on this list for
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several reasons one he puts himself within the area around the time of the murders and two he puts himself with
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Gene Hart possibly with Gene Hart shortly after the murders so and a lot of people would think it's more likely
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that there was two perpetrators in this crime yeah so you have John Clayton Potts who who fits into a unique
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category as a suspect either he did it himself or he could be an accomplice of Gene hearts and you would think though
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we got this fingerprint on the flashlight doesn't match him because we know it doesn't match
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heart and regarding this Ricky green the guy that was imprisoned in New Mexico for
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burglary the guy that he he confessed to the killings mean green he tells the Oklahoma State Bureau of Investigations
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that he committed the crimes he and two other men committed the crimes and we say that he was ruled out as a
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suspect simply because he failed five polygraph tests I have to believe that there's more going on with this I don't
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feel like they would rule this guy out immediately we do know that OSBI publicly stated they thought that Hart
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was their guy so you and I know from our long time of doing this that sometimes they don't really
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they're not fully investigating these things after they think that their guys already been you know by this point he's
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dead and also the tunnel vision for one and also just I mean we see it all the time with whether it's uh an author or
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just an armchair detective that creates a theory and it rules out any other possibilities no matter what is
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presented to them no matter what evidence is presented to them but I think there's more going on here with
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the you fail five polygraph tests and you're probably changing the story so much that
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maybe law enforcement doesn't even know what to believe I agree with that and that's what I think we have here but
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that's a sticky situation too because within the bits of his confession he states that he was high on drugs when
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they committed the murders so yeah but we've seen that too I mean uh what's what's he gonna remember or how what
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will be his memories that he has of those events well we've also had people that have confessed to crimes and um had
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other people involved saying hey this person helped me with the crime while they're on drugs and but I think
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believed it for so long um but it could be as simple as you know they were high on drugs and saw a news
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report about this I have to wonder to when this confession was delivered to OSBI because what
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available evidence did they have at the time of this confession because if they still have a lot of evidence on hand
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regardless of if you believe his story or his story doesn't add up you know you could chalk that up to him being high on
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drugs you can test this evidence you can look at the evidence and you can compare it
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to him and the other two people that individuals that he named as accomplices right and maybe you're
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able to clear those other two at the very least it's that's a curious story right there I would like to know more
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about this Ricky green confession and I hope that there was more to rule him out
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than just the failed polygraph test now here's some other angles here Captain so
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there's one theory that the counselors or some of the counselors in some way or form were involved in
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this so a few pieces of information LED people to speculate that someone at Camp
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Scott pulled off an inside job one was the confusion early on about whether the three victims were actually
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raped or just sexually assaulted the D.A refused to say that the girls were raped and we now know that there
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were differing conclusions about the presence of semen or sperm right which led people to suspect that maybe a woman
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could have been involved also we have the small shoe print as well yes the tennis shoe print that was found is
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smaller in size more like a female the camp dog this is this is an interesting tidbit
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here okay no one reported there was a camp dog okay that lived there that occupied the camp I I had that somewhere
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but I don't have it with me today of course not such a disappointment well the camp dog
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no one reported hearing the camp dog bark that night we have all these other reports of strange noises and going on
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in the in the woods right but nobody reporting this dog alerting them to anyone being nearby so maybe was this
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dog was she familiar with the perpetrator um yeah but even if you're even if a dog's
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familiar with you chances are if you're in the woods in the dark you're still going to get the
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dog to start barking we also have the fact that it's very likely that the killer had some
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might have been intimately familiar with the camp itself and the one tent out of all the tents
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that were there the one tenth the killer or Killers chose was the only tent that
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had only three occupants also we have a towel used in the counselor's tent to wipe their feet on
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that rainy night that had been hanging on the end of Carla's bed at bedtime was found by investigators on the 13th with
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blood on it it appeared to have been used to wipe some some blood up at some point right
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the 2007 DNA testing showed that the pillowcase sample was likely from a woman but it didn't rule out this is the
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problem with this it didn't rule out that it had belonged or came from one of the victims themselves right
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then we have the story of the minister in 1990 Tulsa World ran a very detailed article containing the following
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information an Oklahoma minister Reverend Gerald Manley claimed he can name two of four
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men he says participated in the Girl Scout murders 13 years earlier tedley Turner a former private
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investigator who assisted officials in investigating the slangs believed manly pushed for a grand jury to be convened
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to examine manly's claims letourner said manly claimed to have been in the tent the night of the murders along with some
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young men he didn't know but he met when Manley was driving and ran out of gas these young men drove up to help him
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manly claimed one of the men led him to a tent in the Girl Scout camp inside the
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tent manly claimed he saw one of the Dead girls lying on the floor and two zipped up sleeping bags that appeared to
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contain bodies according to the OSBI spokesman when the story was brought to the OSBI agents
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were assigned in laboratory tests were performed on a plastic glove that mainly got from one of the men he accused the
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glove had what appeared to be blood on it the OSBI submitted a report to the D.A but as far as OSBI was concerned
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there was nothing to Warrant further investigation the man who headed the investigation for
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the OSBI in 1977 Ted Lemke said he remembered when manly brought the story forward years ago and said
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there was nothing to substantiate it he did also say that the OSBI never denied the fact that more than one person could
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have been involved Harold Berry who was the first Trooper on the scene at Camp Scott and who went
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on to become Mayes County Sheriff at one point said he met La Turner in manly at a
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restaurant in 1990 and Barry asked manly to draw a diagram of the camp layout in
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the victim's tent yeah he couldn't draw a layout of the camp he couldn't draw a layout of their tent
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and then Barry said that's when he leaned across the table and asked the man what will you do if I arrest you
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right here for being accessory to the homicides of the Girl Scouts Barry said the man replied well maybe I just
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dreamed I was there so strange that seems like there's so many people that want to take credit for this or point
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the figure at somebody and we've seen this at other times too we're talking about
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it's always the popular cases in the community yeah most likely the most Infamous case in Oklahoma history you
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know as far as you know 1970s goes and so we have all these people coming forward that have some involvement
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either they did it or they know who did yeah this story comes from claims online
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okay so there's a camp called Camp Garland this was a boy scout camp and it was located about a quarter mile away
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through the dense woods from Camp Scott right now much has been made of a story circulating online that claims that a
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scout at Camp Garland witnessed three Boy Scouts returned to camp in the middle of the night all bloody and
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they're claiming they killed some girls yeah nothing has ever come of this story
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personally I think investigators would likely have been able to find some evidence left by a bunch of young
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teenage boys right who were well who are unlikely to have navigated their way through the pitch black forest
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area between the camps in the middle of the night to assault molest and kill three young girls yeah but you got Boy
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Scout camp you have Girl Scout camp it makes like a great urban legend story it does but they pop out of let's say
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say this let's go through this a bit they pop out of the woods and they tell this individual we just killed some
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girls how if that's true this was 1977 since then how many other people would they
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have told along the way one and then two what about all that stuff that was found
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in those caves that where you can trace back to the murder scene possible planted evidence right and for you to
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believe this Theory you have to believe all of that evidence was planted right yeah but but also maybe that uh
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flashlight was not Hearts flashlight maybe that was somebody else's flashlight one of the
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Boy Scouts and we don't know who these Boy Scouts are quote unquote so maybe maybe a couple of them committed suicide
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we don't know but it does make a uh good urban legend story [Music] [Music] all right we're back cheers cheers to
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you Captain well all these theories and all these other suspects that we just discussed what that tells me is even
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though this case is old it's unsolved and let's go ahead and label it cold it's a cold case right it tells me that
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the people the public they've not forgotten no they've not given up that there is somebody out there responsible
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for this and it could be Gene Hart who we already discussed right now one thing that we did talk about too was that it
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seems on the outside looking in the OSBI and other agencies close to the case they've said some public statements and
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done some things that cause you or cause one to believe that maybe the case is closed in their mind and they weren't or
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were not actively working the case in the years to come however there were other agencies that were doing some work
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on this case yeah we see this time until time again though where somebody says hey look we we think we know who is
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responsible we tried them and it didn't work out in our favor but we think we know who's responsible and the reason
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that we know that other agencies and other people still cared about this case and again I want to be clear I'm not
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completely saying that OSBI didn't care and quit caring I'm not saying that local agencies quit caring and quit
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working the case I'm just saying there are things that were statements made publicly that could lead one to believe
00:27:09
that but over the years what we have seen is several groups and organizations and
00:27:14
agencies who kept running tests on the evidence that was found at the murder scene sometimes they're testing this
00:27:20
against possible suspects so we do know that people out there do care agencies do care and they continue to work the
00:27:27
case because this family needs some kind of conclusion there's been many of these
00:27:33
tests conducted over the years and I won't go through all of them because it's it's some pretty heavy lifting
00:27:39
because they kept testing and testing and testing the stuff but I do want to talk about and cite some uh some of
00:27:46
these tests so there were tests run in 1989. this showed that three of the five DNA traits found in the samples taken
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from the dead girls matched that to heart right authorities emphasize that only one in 7 700 American Indians would
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match the samples of fluids to this extent Hart did but because only three of the five
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aspects matched the results were officially deemed inconclusive Jack Graves then Mays County district
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attorney said if that test result had been available back then he would have used it at the trial yeah he said what
00:28:27
it comes down to is this if there were 7 700 North American Indians at the Girl Scout camp that
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night on the night that the girls were murdered only one would have matched the gene characteristics and the evidence
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left there and again Gene Leroy Hart matches this right that's pretty damning evidence that's what he says he says the
00:28:50
chances of that are pretty small no that that's what he said yeah in other words
00:28:54
the best statistical chance that the state could cite that Gene Hart was the killer was one in seven thousand seven
00:29:02
hundred in 2007 the OSBI received a Federal grant to have DNA evidence in unsolved
00:29:10
cases examined by private Laboratories using DNA testing not available at OSBI in May of 2007 the lab issued a report
00:29:20
that no DNA results were obtained from this evidence in this case most likely what that leads us to believe is that
00:29:29
these samples since have deteriorated and we've lost the ability to test to test them
00:29:36
so where that leaves us Captain is an unsolved case where we do have a lot of circumstantial evidence and I would
00:29:43
argue a lot of physical evidence that does link what can only be described as the prime suspect part Gene Hart and
00:29:53
it's very difficult too because again you want to get some kind of answers for the victims families so that maybe they
00:30:01
could have uh again we've talked about this before people say well maybe they get closure
00:30:09
well I don't know if they ever get closer but maybe they get some answers in this case it's really it's it's so
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blurry because I think the evidence points to Heart I don't know if that points to Heart
00:30:23
being acting alone or with somebody but it definitely points to him but again if
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you're on the jury and you know that he's going to get 300 plus years in prison anyways
00:30:35
it's hard to rule in his favor or hurt or against him it seems to me and again there are differing reports of this so
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it's it's hard to say 100 percent what actually happened that night and who committed these murders yeah the
00:30:54
evidence leans and tour and points toward the fact that there may have only been one killer as
00:31:00
almost impossible as that may seem the DNA evidence would suggest that there was only one rapist right so if we had
00:31:09
to pick just one guy one guy acting alone the the problem with Gene Hart is several things you can't rule him out
00:31:15
using DNA you just can't he's he's the one in seven thousand seven hundred people that matches what evidence was
00:31:23
found there right and those other statements about him being a secretor and being a typo blood
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and having deformed sperm that the numbers back then and I can't I can't back up the math on it right but their
00:31:37
statements were it was .002 percent of the American population that's a very small number and on top of
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that we know that he was close to the area he was active in burglarizing the area right he also had his mother's home
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you know half a mile or so from from the crime scene yeah and he's his childhood
00:32:00
home was on the run from the police in the first place my other thing too is I really question
00:32:06
you know the the problem with heart for me is really the fingerprints no fingerprints you break into a house you
00:32:14
steal a flashlight you're wearing gloves at the time you just always wear those gloves
00:32:19
anytime you're touching this stuff it's not that hard to think that there wouldn't be fingerprints if he's wearing
00:32:25
gloves well and he's somebody that I would categorize as a career criminal you know at a very young age he he raped
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those women and let's who cares man if anybody wants to argue this with us here in the garage what
00:32:39
what we can see by that first offense it was a terribly violent offense right he raped
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these two women he abducted them raped him and left them left them for dead the way that he tied them up the way that he
00:32:52
kind of he almost concealed their bodies in a way it would have been two rape charges and two murder charges and he
00:33:00
pled guilty so he wasn't claiming he was innocent yeah and there are people out there Back in 77 that thought hey this
00:33:07
guy got railroaded the first time right how can you get railroaded when you plead guilty right and maybe you know
00:33:13
maybe Hart would tell you well they they were stacking the case against me this that and the other thing these women
00:33:20
were tied up and they were Bound in a manner that they would cause their own deaths if they came to and struggled to
00:33:27
free themselves right he intended for them never to be found he intended them to me never be found alive yeah because
00:33:34
he's real and when he went to prison for that I think that like these other career
00:33:42
criminals do whether it be whether your crime be theft or you know hold UPS or rape or murder right
00:33:51
all of these individuals they tend to learn from their past mistakes and I think what you pointed
00:33:58
out is spot on I think it's as simple as he was using gloves during the perpetration of burglarizing homes yeah
00:34:07
and therefore regardless of his state of mind or regardless of his condition he was using gloves at the time of the
00:34:15
murders and he likely all those items that he brought with him to the scene show to me that he probably carried him
00:34:22
under gloved hands yeah the other thing too is we saw things in his first rapes of those women of the
00:34:31
pregnant women we saw that he premeditated that attack he brought with him to the scene things
00:34:39
that would help him bind these women up he laid out newspapers in the trunk of his car so that if there was any
00:34:46
evidence that would be left behind probably to sop up blood if it if need be to catch the blood that he could later
00:34:54
throw those newspapers away well and he wasn't going to take any chance of leaving any victim alive there's going
00:35:01
to be no possibility of that and I think what we see here with the Girl Scout murders is the same thing I see a
00:35:08
perpetrator or perpetrators that brought to the scene with them instruments that would help them commit
00:35:14
this crime right binding I think the intent was not to go there that night and steal things from
00:35:21
the camp I think the intent was to show up there and do something very bad and very horrible yeah no I agree that the
00:35:29
tricky thing to me though is there's so many things that are done to tents and there's so many people that oh we think
00:35:36
we saw a guy come into our tent with our temp flaps were messed with this stuff was stolen you have three victims it
00:35:43
almost seems either again like a shape shifter I'm not saying he he actually can shapeship
00:35:50
but somebody that is very familiar with the tent they're in a semi-circle it wouldn't be that hard to cause all that
00:35:57
commotion but with the three victims you know it makes me believe that possibly there was somebody else with him yeah
00:36:03
the the thing though he is very experienced Outdoors he knew the area better than most arguably better
00:36:12
than anyone anybody at that campsite I mean it by all accounts it seems like he was
00:36:19
mostly living off the land in the area at the time I think this guy would have had the
00:36:25
stealth ability of creeping up on those campers to those different tents and he would make a lot less noise than most of
00:36:33
us would do the other thing too is regarding some of the items that I believe he brought with
00:36:39
him that night the flashlight so it's often discussed and this is rightfully so but many
00:36:46
people point out that the newspaper inside the flashlight was most likely to keep the battery forced up into position
00:36:55
so it would provide Power for the light itself yeah I agree with that 100 I think that that
00:37:02
was one of the reasons for the newspaper inside the flashlight but I also believe
00:37:07
that it was jammed up in there so that the battery wouldn't rattle around in the flashlight so that the person could
00:37:15
sneak around making less noise yeah makes sense because you alter the front lens so it's a smaller Flash
00:37:23
and then you alter the battery so it doesn't rattle that makes a lot of sense yeah and you've used those size of
00:37:28
flashlights before they can they can make little rattling noises I I personally don't use them that size I
00:37:35
like to use the big mag ones that you could beat somebody over the head with like a baseball bat but if somebody was
00:37:42
let's say clever enough to alter the lens of the light to mute the light and only have that little bit showing
00:37:51
through they're coming up with other ideas as well and I don't know man the the troubling
00:37:59
thing is I agree with you some of the items that were found some of the evidence that was found that does link
00:38:05
heart to the murders it's sketchy if it was planted or not they had it out for heart period and I
00:38:15
have a hard time believing though that all of the evidence itself right but it's it's okay remember how they said oh
00:38:22
it was like we're reliving the OJ trial but it's the same thing it's like just be if they planted evidence right I I
00:38:31
can I can back up and say maybe they did plant some evidence maybe they didn't like O.J and they planted some evidence
00:38:37
and they want to get a hard conviction okay maybe they planted some evidence but they didn't plan at all right and
00:38:43
there's a possibility that you can be guilty and the police did plant evidence we live in a world that that's possible
00:38:51
I think if Hart did it he took the murder weapon with him could have been the flashlight
00:38:57
may not have been I don't think that that uh you know we have that crowbar or that tool that was missing from the
00:39:03
nearby Farm I don't know 100 that it came from the farm or that it was used in the murders
00:39:09
I kind of feel like that that whoever if all those items found in the caves if they weren't planted
00:39:17
I think that the killer took enough of the stuff with them with him that he wasn't just leaving random things behind
00:39:25
maybe I'll tell you what they didn't plant that pile of human poo poo and maybe those uh PBR bottles the the beer
00:39:33
bottles that was just him sipping beer while he lie and wait while he waited for the sun to go down watching the
00:39:39
campers seeing who goes into What tent seeing where they are proximity to the counselors right the tricky thing too is
00:39:46
I think Hart had a hell of a defense team you know we the community that believed he was innocent pulled together
00:39:53
raised a bunch of money and hired what I think was a good defense team they pulled out tactics similar to what we
00:39:59
saw with the Casey Anthony case with the O.J Simpson case where we have a defense
00:40:05
team that basically States look look at all these other possible theories and suspects that you can't rule out jury
00:40:12
they even had people testify saying yeah I was questioning about this five times
00:40:17
right but there's no real evidence and they even presented other possible suspects you can't rule them out jury oh
00:40:26
yeah and the possibility of they planted evidence on this as well and they can't say 100
00:40:34
percent that the DNA evidence left matches heart and so I think the situation there is
00:40:41
difficult for the jury I think that it was a clever chess move by the defense team to conveniently let it slip out
00:40:48
that this guy's already serving 300 years in prison and I know we have the statements by some of the jury that say
00:40:55
look we didn't feel like the state put up enough evidence against this guy I think what it boils down to is if you're
00:41:03
sitting there in that chair questioning the guilt or innocence of this dude right it's easier for you to go you know
00:41:10
what he's innocent but he's not going to walk free anyway he's going to spend the
00:41:14
rest of his days in prison and on top of that if you do say he's guilty and you got it wrong
00:41:22
then you got it wrong if you say he's innocent it's almost like you can't get it wrong
00:41:28
and so I think with the what the jury was burdened with was a heavy hand was it was a was a
00:41:35
heavy task I think here in the garage we're we're not burdened with such a heavy task we don't have to say Beyond A
00:41:42
Reasonable Doubt I think for me I'm definitely burdened though I'm burdened in ways that I can't
00:41:49
discuss here yeah but I not in my contract I feel very confident in a couple of statements okay one I think
00:41:56
this is a cold case I think it may remain a Cold Case unfortunately but I also feel like that if I had to pick one
00:42:02
person Hearts the guy I think heart's the guy I will say this though uh to leave a bit of optimism out there I have
00:42:10
been in contact with people in the last few months that have said no Nick it's not a Cold Case wait for it there's
00:42:17
something that's coming in this case [Music] well Us in 2018 on a good note a high
00:42:32
note with some some good recommended reading yeah check out our recommended page at truecrime garage.com we'll have
00:42:39
this listed there for you this week we are recommending Alcatraz the last survivors nine former inmates reveal
00:42:47
secrets of the Rock and the author John forsling he is a lifelong Alcatraz buff and he interviewed nine different
00:42:56
inmates including Whitey Bulger and also suspected serial killer harv the hammer
00:43:02
carnigan for this book where they give detailed accounts of some of their crimes and their times at Alcatraz and
00:43:09
again everything that we recommended this year is on the recommended page on our website truecrimegarage.com and if
00:43:16
you go to truecrime garage.com you can also click on off the Record it's our bonus show that's on Stitcher premium or
00:43:23
download the Stitcher app for all of our old episodes it's free yeah we've done over 260 episodes now so if you want to
00:43:31
find the old and good ones come back and get the Stitch wrap and we will not be recording or in the garage next week
00:43:39
because it is Christmas so want to wish everybody a happy uh holidays safe travels happy New Year and I will see
00:43:48
you in 2019. and here's a New Year's resolution for us all let's be good let's be kind and don't litter
00:44:16
thank you [Applause] [Music]