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[Music] See dealer for financing details by an unspeakable act. The apocalypse would occur soon.
00:00:43
More white supremacist groups, more anti-government groups. David Caresh. Ruby Ridge siege. Timothy
00:00:52
McVey. More than 80 people dead. Bombed a federal building in Oklahoma City. Eight by an unspeakable act. There is so
00:01:03
little hope left. The following is from McVey, the inside story of the Oklahoma bombing. But I
00:01:12
don't believe that it is proprietary to that publication. I believe here, Captain, that this was in several
00:01:21
publications in the first in the late '9s and then made its way to book form later. But this portion reads right
00:01:29
here, April 19th, 1995, 5 minutes before the bomb ripped through the Alfred P. Mora Federal
00:01:38
Building and killed 168 people. Timothy McVey lit the backup fuse. McVey had pulled over in
00:01:46
front of an abandoned Firestone garage in downtown Oklahoma City, parking for a few minutes on the unused driveway by a
00:01:56
chainlink fence. Across the street stood the high-rise Regency Towers apartment complex. Inside a convenience store on
00:02:05
the apartment's ground floor, a security camera caught a hazy image of McVeyy's rider truck. The camera timestamped the
00:02:15
photo at 857 a.m. Inside the truck, McVey picked up a long green cannon fuse from the floor. It ran through the wall
00:02:26
in the back of the cab. He took it between his fingers and snapped a lighter to it. The fuse lit with a hiss
00:02:33
of sparks and smoke. He dropped the crackling fuse behind the seat. Knowing canon fuse burns at a steady rate of
00:02:42
about 30 seconds a foot. He put the truck into gear, eased back out, and drove up Fifth Street. A red light
00:02:50
stopped him at Fifth and Harvey. While waiting at the light, he lit another fuse, the primary, which he had about a
00:02:57
3minut burn. As a US Army doctorate dictated, the bomb now had two ways to explode. Waiting at the red light, smoke
00:03:07
billowing into the cab, McVey anxiously eyed the dark glass Alfred P. Mura building looming one block ahead. Then,
00:03:17
as we all know, Captain, at 9:02 a.m., on that morning, that spring morning in Oklahoma City, the bomb explodes in the
00:03:26
rider truck parked outside the Alfred P. Mura Federal Building. So, what we learn
00:03:32
here is that he took great efforts to make sure that the bomb that he and Nicholls had constructed would in factly
00:03:41
it would in fact do what it was planned to do. that he lit two fuses, a backup fuse to make sure that this bomb would
00:03:51
ignite and go off and destroy the building and whoever was inside. It's been stated that the original plan was
00:03:59
to blow up the truck in the parking garage portion of this building, which was located under
00:04:08
the building. Now, that would mirror some previous terrorist attacks like the I think it was
00:04:15
1993 with the attempt on the World Trade Center when a bomb a similar plan was hatched to drive a truck loaded with
00:04:24
explosives into the parking garage located underneath the World Trade Center. The story as it goes here with
00:04:32
Oklahoma City is that McVey failed to understand that the truck he was in was too tall to get into the parking garage
00:04:41
and that he actually had planned to blow up the truck at 11:00 a.m. rather than 900 a.m. But this 5 minutes that he has
00:04:51
is not only to put the truck into place, but also to give him time to get out of
00:04:56
there prior to lighting these the fuses. He had already planted a getaway vehicle. And so he basically pulls up
00:05:09
and locks the truck, gets out and starts moving quickly away from the vehicle, dropping the keys to the rider
00:05:18
truck a block or two away, and then he gets in his getaway vehicle and he drives off. Now, one thing that we
00:05:26
talked yesterday about here, Captain, was the debate on how many people were involved in this this plot, this
00:05:34
terrorist plot. How many people knew about it? How many people may have provided funding or encouragement to
00:05:43
McVey? Well, we do know that that Nicholls was involved in this. We we know that with 100% certainty. But one
00:05:52
thing that is interesting is the only person to ever testify as to seeing anybody leaving that rider truck does
00:06:00
not describe anybody that looks like Timothy McVey leaving leaving the rider truck. and in fact describes two people
00:06:05
saying claiming that they saw two people walking away from the truck. The interesting thing to me here, Captain,
00:06:13
is that doesn't necessarily mean that they saw two people in the truck, two people get out of this truck. And can
00:06:20
you imagine the amount of chaos that ensued at 9:02 a.m. that morning? I I I don't I don't know that anybody would be
00:06:30
thinking clearly just minutes after seeing something as normal as a as a truck driving down the street and then
00:06:37
parking somewhere parking near the front of this building. But you said we do have some of this stuff on surveillance
00:06:43
footage. So, does the surveillance footage show more than one individual or does it always You can't see anybody.
00:06:50
You can only see the truck. You can see the rider truck. And and truly as horrific of an act as this is, I mean,
00:06:58
this is the as far as casualties go, this is the worst act of homegrown terrorism that this country has ever
00:07:07
experienced and hopefully will ever experience. No, it the trial with Timothy McVey was built on
00:07:17
circumstantial evidence. There's there's no there's not anything other than a bunch of circumstances that we know to
00:07:26
be true that once you pile them up that you can say with a great deal of confidence that yes, Timothy McVey was
00:07:34
in Oklahoma City that morning, was in the rider truck, built the bomb, and was responsible for delivering the truck to
00:07:42
and parking in front of the Alfred P. Mura building. There's nobody that says they saw Timothy McVey
00:07:51
in the rider truck. There's nobody that says they saw Timothy McVey even in Oklahoma City that morning. But let's
00:07:59
get into some of the details of it here. As said, the bomb explodes at 9:02 a.m.
00:08:05
By 9:03 a.m., there's over a thousand 911 calls that are placed in Oklahoma City. And thi this is due to not just
00:08:14
the building in this act of terrorism but the the explosion itself captain was felt up to 4 miles away. And I've seen
00:08:25
people interviewed where they say, "Yeah, that morning I was working at X location in downtown Oklahoma City and
00:08:34
everyone's head at 9:02 a.m. Everyone's head turned in the direction of the Alfred P. Mura
00:08:42
building." That's no matter where you were working in that city that morning. It was felt and heard over four miles
00:08:52
away. And it actually registered on the RTOR scale at at a at a 3.0. So some people might have thought it was an
00:09:00
earthquake. Might have thought it was an earthquake. Definitely an explosion. The
00:09:04
other the the a very chaotic portion of this is hearing this maybe even being able to mentally identify this as a very
00:09:15
large explosion but not knowing where it came from. sometimes to try to wrap your
00:09:20
head around something and try to get a full grasp of the situation. It's very easy for us to look at
00:09:29
these horrific events and these crimes as we do here and and try to gather a full understanding of it or or believe
00:09:38
that we do, but you're doing that all in retrospect. So, with an event like this
00:09:43
and anytime we have a a true crime case where there's a manhunt or there's an investigation that follows, especially
00:09:51
the ones that kind of drag out, what you really want to do to get a full understanding of these scenarios is to
00:09:58
review what people were saying in the moments when they had no idea what the hell was going on. or to the great to
00:10:07
the grander scheme of things or the larger picture of what is going on. I thought that I had a good deal of
00:10:15
sympathy, sadness, and anger about this event, but then when I started reading through some of the details of things
00:10:21
that I had never even been able to consider, right? And and we're talking the seconds after this happened and and
00:10:30
the minutes after this happened, it's it's not just horrific, it's chaotic. And now you you already talked about the
00:10:41
number of casualties. And of course that that number is growing as the day goes along. But the people that survived the
00:10:51
explosion, there were plenty of people in that building, thankfully so, that survived that explosion, many of them
00:10:58
tell us that first it was confusion, right? So, one woman says that she was sitting in her office chair at her desk,
00:11:07
902 bomb explodes, and it throws her chair and all about 10 ft from her desk into the wall behind her. And as she is
00:11:20
pulling herself up and off of the floor, she looks around and nobody that was in
00:11:26
the room with her prior is there anymore. And she says that she first of all she had no idea what the hell was
00:11:33
going on. She almost thought like she's in a dream or maybe a nightmare. And her
00:11:38
first reaction was was like loudly but casually saying like, "Hey, where'd you where'd you guys go? Where'd everybody
00:11:46
go?" And not hearing anybody respond. For those of you that have not seen a picture of this and don't know what this
00:11:53
what this looks like, it it's beyond de devastating. Yeah, it blew the entire front off of this building. We talked
00:12:01
about it being a glass front that that I think the glass Yes, it aided in that, but I I don't think it had much to do
00:12:08
with it. That this bomb was so large. And we talked about the RTOR scale. We talked about people feeling it, seeing
00:12:16
it, hearing it four miles away. It blew a big portion of this building off. So this building, it it did nine floors
00:12:25
worth of damage, which is the entirety of the building, and it it blew off and just completely destroyed the front
00:12:33
portion of the building. And then I've read a few different descriptions of this and and they give varying sizes, so
00:12:41
I don't know what I'm hesitant to report what the actual size was, but the bomb also blew a giant crater in the earth
00:12:48
underneath the building. Some say it was 20 feet or or even 30 feet deep, possibly 30 feet wide. It was
00:12:56
so destructive that it that it did damage to all of the surrounding buildings. It did damage to nearly every
00:13:04
building, some form of damage to nearly every building in Oklahoma City, downtown Oklahoma City. It destroyed
00:13:10
cars that were across the street, cars that were parked down the block. I mean, it the amount of damage. And then some
00:13:17
of the people that were inside that were able to recognize what happened, they thought, well, holy [ __ ] there whoever
00:13:26
tried to blow this up or whatever reason why for the explosion, there's going to
00:13:30
be another one. I need to get out of here. Well, it's not so simple when half the building doesn't exist anymore.
00:13:37
Right. And we don't know what the devastation would have been. I'm assuming a lot more if Timothy was able
00:13:45
to put it in the location he wanted to originally. I think with the level of planning that I believe went into this,
00:13:55
I think he was going for the greatest effect, for the most destruction, the largest body count. And I think you're
00:14:03
exactly right, Captain. I think if that was his plan and if that if those were his goals, well then that was part of
00:14:10
his plan to achieve those goals. And so he had to have some thinking or thought that that's would be the way to do the
00:14:18
most damage. I read one story of a man who was on the ninth floor with no way for him to get out of the building
00:14:26
because oh the stairwell that that he would leave from his office from if if he were to take the stairwell that
00:14:35
wasn't there anymore. So now you're on the ninth floor standing in a room where it doesn't have four walls anymore. It
00:14:44
has one complete wall and two partial walls. and basically a ninestory drop plus the crater
00:14:53
below between you and the ground. And he said he made the decision in that moment
00:14:59
cuz he was convinced that there would be another explosion that would blow up the
00:15:04
the remaining portion of the building. He goes out on window ledges on the ninth floor and said that he did it out
00:15:12
of pure desperation because he was convinced he only had minutes to escape. And he had he did some [ __ ] like you
00:15:20
would see out of the movies, man, where he he gets to a part where there's no more window ledge for him to move along
00:15:26
to and he has to jump over a portion of the building that is no longer there so he can get his feet back to to the floor
00:15:35
and make it to the other side for that stairwell so he can get out of there. There's not just casualties, there's
00:15:42
also hundreds of victims that were just injured. Oh yes. Yeah, there were people
00:15:49
that were injured that weren't even inside the building. And then of course the most difficult part of this is is
00:15:55
the children that were killed there. It was a daycare center on the the second floor of the Mura building. Children of
00:16:02
all ages inside of that that daycare center. And it was I don't know that's it's
00:16:10
that's one of those parts of the story that later McVey and Nicholls would say that they didn't know that there was a
00:16:17
daycare center in there. Um but yeah, it seems like [ __ ] though. These guys are complete [ __ ] that they're
00:16:24
they're there's enough hate in their hearts that that their response to it was, "Well, we didn't care. Even though
00:16:30
we didn't know, we we didn't care." uh that that that anybody in that building was collateral damage for their greater
00:16:38
cause that they were or their their war that they decided they were fighting. Well, guess what? You weren't fighting
00:16:44
that war against the people like the ATF or the FBI or the US Marshall Service. No, you chose to while while those
00:16:53
agencies may have had some offices within that building, there were also offices that were filled with public
00:17:02
services and with other with the daycare, things that weren't part of the ATF and not part of the IRS or the
00:17:10
Secret Service. Ultimately, man, you're you chose to ignite a war or start a war
00:17:17
against the government or these government agencies, but but who did you ultimately attack? Civilians,
00:17:25
right? And children, just like Bill Clinton said, innocent children. You you went after innocent children. And so you
00:17:34
can you can [ __ ] and complain and try to rally the troops as much as you want and point and say that the ATF did this
00:17:43
to a bunch of kids inside of Waco. Well, then you're no more right than they are
00:17:49
than than the enemy that you came up with in your head. Now, we know there's a racial component to Timothy McVeyy's
00:17:57
ideology, but was there a religious component as well? Obviously in Waco there was a religious component to
00:18:04
everything and then I I think you could make an argument that there was some kind of religious or spiritual component
00:18:12
to Ruby Ridge. Could be. I feel like with Ruby Ridge that they the Weaver family was just more terrified of this
00:18:20
agency and that they that the Randy was going to be wrongfully incarcerated. Of course with
00:18:27
Waco there's absolutely a religious component. I mean, it's that's at the center of the story. And then with with
00:18:35
this one with McVey, I don't feel like there is. There's nothing really to suggest that coming from his words,
00:18:41
coming from his plans. As far as the race part goes, that gets a little more dicey to sort out because the Turner
00:18:50
Diaries that was such a big part of Timothy McVey and such a big part of his life. We talked about what that story
00:18:59
centered around. It was it was blowing up a federal building, starting a a war with the government, overthrowing the
00:19:06
government, and then it leads to a race war. What all McVey was hoping to achieve by blowing up this building is
00:19:16
in so incredibly difficult to try to deduce. I don't feel comfortable saying it. Number one. And number two, I don't
00:19:22
really at the end of the day, Kevin, I really don't believe that he knew 100%. I don't I don't think that his as much
00:19:29
as he claimed that he had this great war that he was fighting or this great revolution that he was going to lead, I
00:19:37
don't believe that he was smart enough to to to know any of that or to have any rationale to to what he was doing. Well,
00:19:45
we know that Timothy McVey was connected to Waco as as a civilian, right? He's not involved uh as any of the government
00:19:54
entities. He's not uh one of the Deinians, right? But correct. He's not a Devidian. Devidian, sorry. But if you go
00:20:03
back to Schnell, he's connected to him on on some level through the his racist ideologies, but Schnell is the one that
00:20:15
really came up with this idea to bomb this building in the first place. Yes. Yes. So, at one point, Snell and some
00:20:23
other cohorts had a plan to fire that rocket launcher from the back of a vehicle into the Alfred P. Mura
00:20:32
building. and Snell targeted this building because the IRS was there and because of because of
00:20:39
some of the offices in in much a similar way that Timothy McVey did because and McVey was right in in this part that
00:20:48
some of those agencies that had offices in the Mura building were not only a part of Waco, but but there were people
00:20:55
that worked inside the Mura building that were at Waco that were part of the siege. And so we it gets difficult to
00:21:04
say that what was the tie how and if there were ties between McVey and Snell, how how strong
00:21:14
were those ties? Because one thing we do know is that McVey had some interaction
00:21:21
with Elum City, which we know that Snell had not just interaction and worked with
00:21:27
some of the the groups that lived there, but also would stay there and considered
00:21:32
that Elom City his air quotes home base. Regardless of any of that, and we let's
00:21:41
circle back to that as we tear through some more of these facts here of the case. But interestingly enough, McVey in
00:21:50
his little getaway vehicle, he doesn't make it very far. So, the the bomb explodes at 9:02 a.m. At approximately
00:21:59
10:20 a.m., Timothy McVey is stopped by an Oklahoma Highway Patrol officer for a
00:22:08
very simple minor traffic infraction. He doesn't have a rear license plate. So, he's pulled over for having
00:22:16
no plate. And the officer is discussing and telling McVey why he was pulled over and
00:22:25
asked to see his registration, driver's license, what have you. And when McVey goes to reach for his driver's license,
00:22:34
the officer then says that he could tell that McVey was was packing, that he had
00:22:39
a gun. And so sure enough, he he he says to the driver, Timothy McVey, he says, "Are are you carrying a weapon?" And and
00:22:48
McVey says, "Yes, he is." And in fact, Timothy McVey was carrying a loaded Glock 45 caliber semi-automatic handgun
00:22:57
tucked under his shirt. And McVey is arrested by the trooper right there after being pulled over at 10:20.
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00:25:27
And cheers to you, Colonel. Cheers to you, Captain. As said, shortly after 10:20 a.m., Timothy McVey is arrested.
00:25:35
He charged with failure to display a rear license plate, failure to provide proof of vehicle insurance, unlawful
00:25:43
transportation of a firearm in a motor vehicle, and unlawful carrying a concealed weapon. McVeyy's weapon was
00:25:52
registered. From my understanding, it just wasn't registered in the state of Oklahoma. Regardless of that, we know
00:25:59
that of all these different infractions here, he is detained and he's transported to the Noble County Jail
00:26:09
located in Perry, Oklahoma. Now, of course, the trooper and the officers there at the Noble County Jail, they
00:26:17
have no idea who they just arrested. They don't know that they've arrested the guy that just parked this truck and
00:26:24
blew up the front of the Alfred P. Mura building, but he's going to be kept there. He's going to be he's going to be
00:26:31
stored there, if you will, at the county jail. And meanwhile, we have an investigation that
00:26:38
is going to try to get up and running amongst the rubble and the casualties. You know, one one other
00:26:48
horrific thing to try to I mean to try to sort out in the chaos of the explosion is even after they had
00:26:59
emergency personnel and services there at the scene, digging through, looking for survivors, hoping for survivors,
00:27:08
finding fatalities. Some of the victims were in such bad shape that when they would find uh when they would find a
00:27:17
victim, they would also collect some of the items that were around them, hoping that if they couldn't physically
00:27:26
identify the victim, that maybe the the items that were found around them would help to identify them ultimately, right?
00:27:34
you know, and some of the some of the people uh yes, were killed in their offices
00:27:38
and and that would lead to an easier way to identify them. But but even with the
00:27:45
children, they collected some of the toys around the children because they were so in such bad condition that they
00:27:54
wouldn't be able to identify them. and they hoped that maybe the parents or relatives or somebody would be able to
00:28:00
identify the toys that were found near these victims as well. And they c man they called in for and requested 300
00:28:10
body bags. This is after they already arrived on scene and a lot of times emergency services are arriving on scene
00:28:17
with body bags. Unfortunately, they called in and requested additional 300 body bags trying to sort through this
00:28:25
chaos, the wreckage, the explosion. But we have to have an investigation. And of
00:28:31
course because of the attack on the World Trade Center in 1993 and it being very similar in nature, the first
00:28:39
thought media jumped to this conclusion, law enforcement jumped to this conclusion. Probably American the
00:28:45
American public jumped to this conclusion as well that everybody thought that we would be looking for a
00:28:51
couple of Middle Eastern terrorists. I mean, that's who was responsible for the the attempt on the the World Trade
00:29:00
Center building. What really started this investigation down the right path was investigators discovered a large axle, a
00:29:12
large uh axle weighing about 250 lbs that was found about 500 ft from the spot of the lo of the explosion. due to
00:29:21
due to its condition, due to what the the experts were seeing, they're thinking this is
00:29:28
probably the axle of the truck that was parked here that that blew up and blew up the building. Think about that for a
00:29:35
minute. We I mean, we talked about the magnitude of this explosion, but this explosion was strong enough to lift this
00:29:41
axle, this particular axle that is 250 lb approximately, and send it 500 ft away. And actually, I s I've seen a
00:29:51
picture of where they where they found this axle, and it looks to me, I can't say this with any degree of certainty
00:29:58
here, Captain, but it looks to me like it this axle could have potentially been thrown further. I think it I think it
00:30:04
was stopped by another vehicle. Like it flew and smashed into a vehicle and then
00:30:08
just stopped there and was found uh where it laid to rest there after smashing into this vehicle. But they get
00:30:15
a partial VIN, a partial VIN or vehicle identification number off of this axle. So the the information they pull off of
00:30:24
it is PVA26077. Now I'll speed things along here, but after doing some work very
00:30:34
quickly, they are able to figure out. So a Vin, I believe, is 17 characters, at least 16. And I'm going off of memory
00:30:44
here, but 16 or 17 characters. And here we only have eight. So we have some sorting out to do with this, but they're
00:30:54
able to determine that this partial VIN belonged to a large truck, basically a large box truck. And
00:31:04
eventually they whittle it down even more that it was a rider truck and that it was a rental truck, a 20footer, a VIN
00:31:13
number, the vehicle identification number, it's 17 characters. So it could be a number or a
00:31:21
letter. Yes. Each one of those characters could be a letter or number, but within that sequence of 17, the
00:31:29
character the characters mean a lot of they provide a lot of different information. Yes.
00:31:37
Right. Like if you have a V in the in spot number eight, uh, or if you have a letter in in spot number seven, if you
00:31:46
have a number in this other spot, and I'm going off of hypotheticals here, but but it does it breaks down a lot of
00:31:53
information. One, when was the vehicle made? Two, what kind of vehicle is it? Three, what weight categories does the
00:32:04
vehicle fall into? for where was the vehicle made and and it goes on and on and on. So each one of those characters
00:32:11
provides a a a wealth of information about that particular vehicle. So once you have that VIN, you can start sorting
00:32:19
a lot of that out. So these we they have everybody working on this. I mean, this
00:32:25
this was the largest investigation in the United States, uh, second only to when they flew the planes into the World
00:32:34
Trade Centers. They very quickly determine that it's a rental truck, a box truck. The authorities learned that
00:32:42
the truck had been rented out for just $200. They track down the the city and the location of where the person where
00:32:52
this rental truck was picked up, right? Because you go in, many of us have have moved before, had to move. It's the
00:32:59
biggest pain in the ass ever. You and when you're doing it yourself, you you have to go and rent one of these trucks.
00:33:05
You go to a location to rent the truck. You spend your what feels like an entire
00:33:09
weekend moving all your crap from location A to location B, if not longer. Yeah. and just just get a dumpster.
00:33:18
Throw throw like twothirds of it away. Become a minimalist. Yeah. So they here's what they sort out. The quick of
00:33:25
it is this. They track down this truck to where it was rented and it was rented from, I believe, a body shop at a
00:33:33
location in uh in Kansas. So it was rented for just $200 to a one Robert Clling. So now they go to where this
00:33:44
vehicle was rented from, and they want to interview the people that that own the shop, the people that work there to
00:33:49
try to figure out what information they can gather about the person who rented the vehicle. This is going to be the
00:33:55
biggest breadcrumb in your breadcrumb trail. After talking to the people that work there, they get a decent
00:34:01
description. And what they learn is that the vehicle was rented out to this Robert Clling, described as a tall white
00:34:08
male, maybe 5' 11ish, described as skinny and possibly wearing camouflage or wearing green. On
00:34:18
April 15th, the customer paid for the truck up front because that was part of the contract. You had to pay for it up
00:34:24
front. And on April 15th at 9:00 a.m. is when they worked out the arrangements of
00:34:29
the truck. The uh people at the body shop explained that there was another man that was
00:34:36
there as well, but they don't know his name because he didn't have to fill out any of the paperwork. But they were able
00:34:42
to provide a description of this man who is described as a white male between 5'7
00:34:47
and 5'8 in tall wearing a baseball cap. Now, these two persons, because law enforcement has no reason to believe
00:34:55
that that the one man used his real name. In fact, I think they did some uh a very quick background check to
00:35:02
determine that the address provided and the name provided doesn't match up. That
00:35:08
person doesn't seem to exist. So, now we have a description of John Doe number one and John Doe number two. These two,
00:35:16
they put together composite sketches of John Doe number one and John Doe number two. And these go out nationwide very,
00:35:23
very quickly. They also learned that it was on April 17th that the rental truck was actually picked up by the customer,
00:35:30
Robert Clling, who had given a date of birth as 41970. And of course, we know the
00:35:39
Oklahoma City bombing took place on 419195. The report is that the man is now solo. He nobody arrived with him to
00:35:50
pick up the truck when he retrieved it on the 17th, but there was somebody with him when he made arrangements for the
00:35:56
truck on the 15th. This is going to lead authorities to a location of Junction City, Kansas. So, we have the
00:36:07
description of these two guys. Remember what we said? Everybody was thinking immediately after the attack. Well, now
00:36:16
they know they're not looking for Middle Eastern terrorists. Yeah. They're not looking for a foreign
00:36:22
terrorist. They're looking for a domestic terrorist, which I don't have it in front of me, but they all the they
00:36:27
sent FBI profilers out there right away. And the FBI profile that that they came
00:36:33
up with suggested that it would be a domestic terrorist uh Caucasian male in his mid to late
00:36:43
20s. is is the very basics of that um profile profile probably working with somebody else. So they go to this
00:36:53
Junction City, Kansas because the part in part the profile and some activities going on in this area led them here and
00:37:02
also it's very close to where the rider truck was was rented from. And now they're going to hit the streets. It's
00:37:11
the old shoe leather ban. the old shoe leather portion of the investigation. They are going around with the the
00:37:18
composite sketches with a picture of the rider truck, which it's nice that they have the rider truck, right? Because
00:37:25
it's it's going to stand out. It's something distinctive. It's something that people may remember. So now they're
00:37:30
going around looking to talk to anybody who may have seen somebody that resembles either one of these dudes and
00:37:37
or saw them with or without the rider truck or maybe just saw the rider truck. We need information on the truck. We
00:37:43
need information on these dudes. Well, they get information that a guy matching the description of Robert Clling of the
00:37:52
man using the Robert Clling alias stayed at a place called the Dreamland Motel and had parked a yellow
00:38:01
rider truck there in their parking lot and rented room number 25. Now, the registration card at the Dreamland Motel
00:38:11
filled out by the customer was made out to a one Timothy McVey or a Tim McVey. He had also
00:38:20
registered his car. If you stay at a hotel, a lot of times they want to know what kind of vehicle you'll be leaving
00:38:26
in their parking lot. Yeah. Sometimes they even want the license plate number. He provided to them that his vehicle was
00:38:33
a Mercury with Arizona plates L2C 034. Armed with this information, they get into their their So, anytime
00:38:47
somebody's arrested, information is supposed to be put into national database, NCIC. They get on NCIC and guess what?
00:38:56
They find out that a guy with a very similar name was arrested just less than an hour
00:39:04
and a half after the explosion in Oklahoma City. The guy that was arrested was Timothy James McVey. Well, according to
00:39:12
the registration card at Dreamland Motel, they're looking for a Tim McVey. Got him. So, now we got Yes. Now
00:39:20
we are getting on the phone with Noble County Jail and hoping and praying they didn't let this this guy out. Yeah. This
00:39:28
homicidal maniac out and and they got lucky. So this investigation is really impressive when it when you review it
00:39:38
how quickly everything moved and how quickly they were able to really start to figure out who
00:39:47
was responsible. When it comes to McVey, we t we talked about briefly about how nobody really was able to with their own
00:39:56
eyeballs put him in Oklahoma City. But now we have information that is telling us that he likely is the guy that was
00:40:05
using the alias Robert Clling who rented the rider truck. And part of that too here,
00:40:13
Captain, that is really a very fascinating aspect to this, even though we can't put him there. If you were, if
00:40:21
one were to drive from the Alfred P. Mura building and go the speed limit to the location of where Timothy McVey was
00:40:32
later arrested for traffic infractions an hour and 18 minutes later, it would put you right at that spot.
00:40:40
That's not 100% confirmation of anything, but that's just another piece of the puzzle. Another another piece of
00:40:49
evidence that is suggestive that you are you've got the right guy. Now, I do want to back this up a little bit, our
00:40:59
story up a little bit here, Captain, because one thing that took place just days before the Oklahoma City bombing on
00:41:08
April 19th, 1995, let's go 4 days prior, all the way out in Arkansas, which isn't ter
00:41:17
terribly far from Oklahoma, but you have Richard Snell, who was being held at the Tucker
00:41:24
Maximum security unit until April 15th when he's transferred to the Green Mile, the execution site.
00:41:36
His death sentence is getting closer and closer by the minute. He's scheduled to be executed on
00:41:46
April 19th, 1995 at the Cumins unit in Lincoln County, Arkansas. This is the same
00:41:53
day that Timothy McVey carried out the Oklahoma City bombing at the building that Snell and
00:42:01
some other guys had once plotted to blow up themselves 12 years prior. Right now, on
00:42:08
this day, Snell watched TV and watched TV reports of the Oklahoma City bombing. Now, we're going to have a portion of
00:42:18
our audience that's too young to remember this, or maybe they weren't even alive when the bombing took place.
00:42:24
I remember seeing it on TV. I We were on spring break at the time. I was a kid. I
00:42:31
was out riding bikes, riding bicycles with with my friends, and we we went inside to like grab a snack or something
00:42:38
or steal something out of the fridge, and it's all over the TV that morning. You couldn't turn on a TV in the 48
00:42:50
states and it not be on. And so we do know for a fact that Richard Snell watched the bombing, watched the the
00:42:59
aftermath of the bombing. And there are a lot of thoughts and theories and speculation about how much did Snell
00:43:08
have involvement or did he have any prior knowledge of this attack that was so similar to something that he had plotted
00:43:16
to do himself? And as the story goes, he had told some of the guards in advance that something that there was
00:43:27
going to be some some incredible event that would take place on the day of his execution. We know what kind of
00:43:35
horrible [ __ ] smart alec kind of dude Richard Snell is. He could have simply been being vague and talking
00:43:43
about his own execution, right? something incredibly important is going to happen on the day that that I'm
00:43:48
executed, right? But but it doesn't seem that way. It seems to No, it's too much
00:43:54
of a coincidence. Well, and there are varying reports about this. So, there are some reports regarding his reaction
00:44:02
to what he was seeing on TV. There are some reports that say that Richard Snell was in celebration mode, that he was
00:44:09
smiling and chuckling and and seemed to be getting some kind of enjoyment and satisfaction out of what he was seeing
00:44:15
on TV. There was other reports that are the complete opposite that that he seemed to be uh
00:44:23
upset uh or maybe even angered at what he was seeing. Now, what we do know is that he was executed on that day. And
00:44:34
when asked to if he had any last words, he chose to address the governor of Arkansas, who at that time was Jim Guy
00:44:44
Tucker. And his last words, his final words were quote, "Well, I had a lot to say, but you have me at an
00:44:51
inconvenience. My mind is blurred, but I'm going to say a couple of words. Governor
00:44:58
Tucker, look over your shoulder. Justice is coming. I wouldn't trade places with
00:45:05
you or any of your cronies. Hell has victories. I am at peace. All right, Captain. All of this is going to be
00:45:14
moving incredibly at lightning speed, right? Wararf, take us to warp speed. But what we have here is the address
00:45:23
that we now know that Tim McVey is a real name, right? They took it off of the Dreamland Motel registration card,
00:45:30
right? Well, there's an address that's listed as well. That address that they they tracked down doesn't belong to
00:45:38
McVey, per se. It belongs to Terry Nichols and Nichols brother when when McVey had lived with them.
00:45:47
Right? So if you're in law enforcement, you're like, we have the real name of the person. This might be a real address
00:45:52
that he lived at and maybe these people are connected on to this attack on some level. I mean, we do have eyewitnesses
00:46:01
that say we saw more than one person. Well, and on top of that, what we have here is again because the investigation
00:46:08
is moving so fast, so quickly, and they're able to call, right, other other branches of of the FBI, they're able to
00:46:17
get local law enforcement involved near and far. And so, the way that I recall this playing out is that they actually
00:46:25
served a search warrant at McVeyy's father's house where he had grew up. They serve that one
00:46:33
first, but then they it becomes known that they are looking for this Terry Nichols or looking for him and his
00:46:42
brother. And once word of that gets out, much to everyone's surprise, Terry Nichols turns himself in. And now he's
00:46:52
being interrogated by law enforcement and they execute a search warrant at Terry Nichols's place. right between it.
00:47:01
It takes a while to break down Terry Nicholls, but they eventually break him down and he starts telling them part of
00:47:09
the plot, part of his involvement, what McVey was up to. And then they find a whole bunch of physical
00:47:18
evidence where Terry Nichols is living. They find they find items that were the same as items used to construct the
00:47:26
bomb. They find written plans. They find a map that has marked on it the Alfred P. Mura building. Oh,
00:47:37
also marked on that map is where the getaway vehicle was parked or to be parked. Right. And so they find a lot of
00:47:45
physical evidence. They they even found some of McVeyy's blood, like two or three drops of blood that eventually
00:47:53
they determined belonged to McVey. So they have all these they have all these ties every a bunch of things tying these
00:48:01
two together and now you have Nicholls who is telling them what happened and and basically what he says here captain
00:48:08
is that he was there in Oklahoma. He he was there in Kansas with McVey. He was there with McVey when they went to go
00:48:19
rent the truck. He helped him construct the bomb in the back of the truck. He helped him outfit the the truck, but he
00:48:27
had left to return to his family instead of riding shotgun to deliver the mobile
00:48:34
bomb on that fateful day. They're going to figure out the connection to Michael and Lorie Forier,
00:48:43
who McVey had stayed with out in Arizona. In fact, Lori is one of the people that testifies against McVey at
00:48:52
his trial. Michael testifies as well, but Michael works out a deal with the authorities to make sure that his wife
00:49:02
gets immunity. And in the end, we can talk about how far and wide did this plot and plan go, who all was involved.
00:49:12
Well, we know that three people were involved and four people had knowledge of it. Michael and his wife, their most
00:49:19
of their involvement was having knowledge of it. Now, what we we do learn too, remember the Robert
00:49:25
Clling alias that Timothy McVey used to rent the truck. Well, that fake identification was provided to him by
00:49:35
Lori. So she made that identification for him to use so that he could rent the truck. But as we now know, she got
00:49:44
immunity because her husband worked out that deal and was willing to testify against his friend Tim McVey at his
00:49:53
federal trial. Timothy McVey was not charged with 168 deaths. He was not charged with a with a number
00:50:02
that equaled the death toll for Oklahoma City. He was charged with eight murders. And that was the that was
00:50:14
eight murders of federal employees, federal law enforcement officers that the US government could
00:50:23
take him to court for and charge him with their murders with capital murder because they they're at work. They're
00:50:31
essentially in the line of duty or performing their job duties and job task when they were murdered by this guy who
00:50:40
drove the bomb in there. I I do think that to the best that they could, I do think that Timothy McVey had good
00:50:48
representation and they put on a good case. They put on a a good presence in the courtroom trying
00:50:56
to provide an argument that there the accused was innocent. There was just too much evidence against this guy. And
00:51:03
behind the scenes, McVey seemed to want to be known as the Oklahoma City bomb bomber. He wanted to be known and he he
00:51:13
laid everything out for his attorneys. And unfortunately for the attorneys, and fortunately for the rest of us, that
00:51:24
information was put on paper and it it made its way somehow to the media prior to his
00:51:31
trial. To to the extent of the attorneys had to go on camera and say, "No, this is a these are these documents are fake.
00:51:41
They're a hoax." And in reality, it was a confession almost of uh to to his involvement. It it was
00:51:52
documentation that pretty much Captain started with the birth of Tim McVey and ended with him being arrested at 10:20
00:52:01
a.m. on the morning of the bombing. But it makes you wonder because the the real smoking gun of all
00:52:10
this is the truck rental. And you think if maybe I don't know if it was just laziness or or maybe he wanted some
00:52:21
link back to him, but you'd think that they could have come up with a better plan that we
00:52:28
wouldn't have to leave any of our information behind to rent this vehicle. Yeah, that's a big that's a part of it
00:52:35
that I had tried to to make heads and tails of is that one I have to believe that he didn't think that any portion of
00:52:44
the truck would survive. But even if you were to think that far ahead, wouldn't you also be thinking
00:52:52
that well rental trucks, they have to come back, right? They they have to be returned and this one is not going to be
00:53:00
returned. And they might be able to connect this truck not being returned to the bombing. And we do know that they
00:53:09
did capture a security camera in a nearby business at a convenience store did capture an image of that rider
00:53:17
truck. And then based off of eyewitnesses that would have been near the federal building at the time of the
00:53:23
explosion or shortly before, they may have all reported seeing this again very distinctive truck. I think that I think
00:53:32
that all roads would have led to McVey no matter what. It's just depending on if it would have been a crosswalk or or
00:53:40
a freeway, right? the amount of speed that they would be able to get and connect all of these items to the actual
00:53:47
suspect. And I don't I'm not convinced that McVey his motive is unclear, right? As as much as it's been discussed that
00:53:57
it that it his motive and even openly by him, in fact, he he didn't really push his appeals too far. He wanted to die.
00:54:07
He wanted to be executed even though he didn't seem to show any remorse at least
00:54:12
publicly for killing 168 people. He was executed 2001. He wasn't he wasn't sentenced until
00:54:23
1997. So this all moved very quickly. And one thing that I found to be very strange and almost haunting in a weird
00:54:31
way, and I'm not trying to get all mystical and tin hat. Put on your tin hat, please. Well, not no I'm not even
00:54:38
not even conspiracy because this wouldn't be conspiracy conspiratorial at all. But I'm not trying to get I'm
00:54:45
talking about like theology, man. Like I'm not trying to get like too crazy about this, but it
00:54:52
is almost a fact. Jesus was approximately 33 years old when he was crucified and killed. David Caresh was
00:55:01
33 years old when he died at Waco, Texas. Mhm. Timothy McVey was 33 years old when he was executed by the federal
00:55:10
government for being the man that killed all of those people at the Oklahoma City
00:55:17
building. Mhm. It's just it's all very weird, strange stuff. And and and to take it further now, let All right,
00:55:25
let's do get a little tin hat here. I keep mine with me in the garage. I got the beer in the right hand. tin hat sits
00:55:34
on the desk to my left. So, I always wear one on my penis just in case. Well, it's good to be have
00:55:43
be protected to be safe. It's better to be safe than But what I find fascinating and
00:55:50
terrifying is to me Timothy McVey had no direction. I don't think this is a plan
00:55:57
that he came up with. And so this plan to me goes all the way back to Schnel. And how did his plan get from him and
00:56:09
his people to Timothy McVey? Well, see, and that's interesting because that would have been something that was
00:56:16
something that was known within those communities. Hell, it was it was public knowledge because Snell was charged. him
00:56:23
and those other guys were charged with conspiracy to overthrow the government, but they they weren't able to get a
00:56:30
conviction on it in court. So, it was general public knowledge if if one were to go looking for it, even though it was
00:56:38
many years ahead of time. I guess McVeyy's biggest connection to the state of Arkansas where Snell was
00:56:48
executed, he was indicted, he was convicted, and we do know that he was charged with the conspiracy. We do know
00:56:55
McVey does have a connection to Arkansas because that's where they robbed that Robert
00:57:01
Moore of thousands of dollars worth of valuables that they were intended to use to fund the bombing. But let's circle
00:57:12
back to the the four tiers when he his time there when he lived with them in Arizona. You know, they're having their
00:57:19
fun with the drugs and McVeyy's got more going on than just drugs, right? He he does go and live on his own, but stays
00:57:28
he's practically like a neighbor of theirs for a while. He at during this time he doesn't have a home phone. And
00:57:35
so he would regularly use their phone. He would go over to Mike and Lory's house and use their phone. And this this
00:57:43
is a big part of the tin hat stuff. So if you want to get real conspiracy, real conspiratorial here,
00:57:51
you can't I think I think that I think there's enough meat on the bone to to to make you wonder.
00:57:58
So she says she tells authorities this. This is a matter of public record. This is
00:58:05
considered, I think, a fact in the courts. She says, "Well, I didn't mind him coming over all the time to use our
00:58:11
phone, even though he was making longd distanceance calls because he was using a a a phone card, a calling card."
00:58:18
Remember those those prepaid cards that you could get? I don't even know if they
00:58:22
still exist. Yeah. But you'd get these prepaid cards, load them up with money, and then you could call whoever, and
00:58:28
then they just take the funds off of that card, out of that account. It's essentially setting up
00:58:35
account and they would take the funds out of there to pay for the long-distance calls. Well, armed with
00:58:40
this information, look, the police and the federal government did not stop once they had Timothy McVey, once they had
00:58:49
Terry Nichols, once they had Michael Forier. They didn't stop once they had those guys. They believed that the plot
00:58:54
was much bigger and and spread far and wide that either people had involvement because having just having knowledge of
00:59:03
this is a crime. Having prior Yes. So they were looking for everybody that could be involved. Meanwhile, you
00:59:10
basically have Timothy McVey that's saying, "I'm I was kind of a lone wolf on this one. This one was me. I was, you
00:59:16
know, this was what I was trying to do." Uh but yet we know Terry, we know that Nichols was involved. We know that a lot
00:59:23
of people believe, and I believe the federal government believes this as well, that Nicholls brother probably had
00:59:28
prior knowledge of what was going on, but they weren't able to prove it. But now using that calling card account,
00:59:34
they were able to determine that Timothy McVey made phone calls to Elum City as as close to 2 weeks before Oklahoma City
00:59:44
bombing. So he made phone calls to Elom City. He made phone calls to the author of The Turner Diaries. What the hell was
00:59:53
that book about? Blowing up a federal building and inciting overthrowing the government and inciting a race war. Mhm.
00:59:59
Oh, by the way, they find a cocktail waitress working at a Tulsa, Oklahoma strip club who tells authorities
01:00:10
that on at least one occasion, Timothy McVey was in the establishment and telling her and anybody willing to
01:00:19
listen that pretty soon he was going to be famous. Now, the versions of that story change a little bit depending on
01:00:27
where you find the information. And there are some some that state that he said the name of the building or said
01:00:32
the date. I don't know how much I believe that. But I do believe that he was there saying that he was going to be
01:00:40
famous or everybody was going to know his name one day. Then we have this other very strange situation that is
01:00:50
difficult to know what level of truth there is to these claims. But we have Chvy Kho, who some of you may recall we
01:01:03
mentioned his name in our first Hate Made in America episode because he was an individual that lived at Ilum City
01:01:12
for a while. He was also an individual that was involved in creating one of these Aryan nation
01:01:20
groups. And he wanted to use this group and build an army of people to rob and commit violent
01:01:33
crimes. And he did. He un unfortunately he was successful in that. He was the um
01:01:39
part of the Aryan People's Republic militia. And as we said in our first episode of Hate Made in America, this
01:01:48
guy went on to kill. He was convicted of at least three homicides, gotten several
01:01:53
shootouts with police and state troopers. And oh by the way, when he was growing up in Washington State, he and
01:02:02
Israel Keys happened to be neighbors, which is a very strange coincidence. But after this guy is eventually locked
01:02:11
up and after Oklahoma City, so he lived in the state of Washington. And there is
01:02:21
thought that he may have had prior knowledge of the Oklahoma City bombing in April 19th of 1995. And where that
01:02:29
stems from is it's not a terrible leap to to suggest that maybe McVey and he and Kho knew one another. But what we
01:02:39
have is he he actually lived at this motel called the Shadow Motel which was located in Spokane, Washington. And the
01:02:48
manager of the Shadow Motel in Spokane has openly publicly made these statements and claims to have seen
01:02:57
Timothy McVey with Chevy Kho at that motel four to 6 months prior to the bombing. This same individual, the
01:03:06
manager, also claims that on the morning of the bombing, Chevy appeared at the motel office asking if the manager would
01:03:14
turn the TV to CNN and says that Chevy Kho became a static when the news of the bombing appeared. By an unspeakable act,
01:03:24
hate the apocalypse would occur soon. More white supremacist groups, more anti-government groups. David Caresh.
01:03:33
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01:03:43
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