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foreign [Music] [Applause] [Applause] welcome to True Crime garage wherever you are whatever you are doing thanks
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for listening I'm your host Nick and with me as always is a man that all week he's been calling me the colonel well he
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is the captain well thanks Colonel it's good to be seen and it's good to see you
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hmm smell like chicken well it's shake and bake [Music] tonight we are drinking mother's Brewing
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company's MILF out of Springfield Missouri MILF is a barrel aged Imperial Stout 11 ABV try some mothers brewing
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companies MILF Stout today a big happy birthday shout out to Saba happy birthday we also want to give a big
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thanks to Becky and Sandy Springs Georgia and Kristen in Centerville Georgia we also have Misty from
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Lancaster Ohio and Ila from Edinburgh Scotland and a big we like your jib to Fanny and Sweden we also have Sean and
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Mike in Hillview Kentucky they say our jibs are A Cut Above the Rest and how about Kristen in Hadley
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Massachusetts Kristen says that her jib doesn't drink but it plays well with others
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foreign I don't know if you want to advertise that and last but not least a big shout
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out and thank you to John from Staten Island John is recommending several beers from the very good people at yards
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Brewing Company thank you for everybody for buying us around for this week's show and if you
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want to buy us around for next week's show go to True Crime garage.com and click on the Donate button and if you'd
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like to follow us on social media Snapchat Twitter Instagram Facebook all that stuff at True Crime garage all
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right everybody punch a clown and grab a chair and grab a beer let's talk some true crime thank you colonel
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foreign [Music] this is true crime garage and this is the case of John Wayne Gacy
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[Music] the Cook County State's Attorney's office tonight denying reports that there is an investigation underway to
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find an accomplice to the murders of those 27 people their bodies found at the home of John Gacy those reports are
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being spurred by statements of Jeff rignall who says Gacy drugged and sexually molested him at the Gacy home
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Gacy himself scheduled appear tomorrow in court to face the charges in connection with the rignal case but it's
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doubtful that he will be in court the ramifications of the mass murder tonight continue to spread even to people
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totally unrelated to Gacy his house or those he had dealings with the sad effects now reaching into Chicago's
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community of clowns for hundreds of people in the Chicago area who use the grease paint costumes
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and antics of a clown this picture in the Chicago Tribune came as a shock it was a publicity picture John Gacy used
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in his sometime role as an entertainer of children now clown organizations say their image has been damaged with guilt
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by association these are members of the clown Guild of Metropolitan Chicago better known by such names as Snappy
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happy wacko Ho-Ho and me too pictures show them in action doing what they love making youngsters laugh even a
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tiny smile will make their day sometimes they are paid for their work often they perform at no charge for
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charity but now the first question people ask is did they know and work with John Gacy we have checked the
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National Organization which is clans of America the shrine organization a number
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of the organizations within the Chicago area and after checking with these people we've found that he is not now
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nor has ever been a member or associated with any of these organizations within this area
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the public might be wondering how they can avoid a person with questionable character coming out to a party what
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would be some of the ways that you could guarantee the type of people that you're coming
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out would be reputable I believe the main thing would be to if they're going to get a clown is to get an organization
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such as the Vagabond clones or clowns of Metropolitan Chicago Nairobi clown troop an organization that
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has a number of members and that way they can pick from those members the clown Guild wanted their story told not
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because they fear economic loss but because of the apprehension they sense from the public
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and tonight they offer insight into John Gacy by analyzing the way he put on his
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clown makeup they say the lines forming his mouth are not grounded but pointed giving a harsh mean look only a true
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clown could notice that [Music] all right can't make that up people that's real news let's start off by telling a story
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that takes place December 11 1978 in Des Plaines Illinois at a little place called Nissan's Pharmacy
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John Wayne Gacy is there and he's busy writing up a proposal he has met with the owner to do some remodeling at the
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pharmacy he's taking measurements and shooting the [ __ ] with the owner and while he's there he also talks to a
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handful of the employees most of them being young teenagers most of the people he speaks with are young females after
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the appointment John Gacy goes home on the way home he realizes that he forgot his appointment book at the pharmacy he
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hadn't he had another appointment that night so it was important that he retrieved that book as soon as possible
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once he got home he left his black Oldsmobile there and he hopped in his pickup truck this is the one with the
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snow plow on the front of it and he drove back to the pharmacy and he was thinking that maybe it wouldn't be a
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complete waste of a trip if he somehow picked up a you know a plow job while he was out you know keep in mind this is
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winner in Illinois while he is there he when he pulls up he bumps into a young man this is 15 year
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old Robert pieste now Rob had seen John Wayne Gacy at the pharmacy earlier that day and he had overheard John talking to
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some of the pharmacy employees telling them that he was looking to hire new help and that he started off his
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employees at five dollars an hour that's five dollars an hour for part-time workers now Rob PS at the time he's 15
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years old he's saving up for that magical day when he turned 16 years old to buy his first vehicle he's saving up
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for a Jeep and he's worked very hard at the pharmacy he's making 2.85 cents an hour he's asked his boss for a raise and
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was turned down for such so he was interested in talking to Mr Gacy about that position yeah this doubles his wage
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so as he's outside taking out the trash now mind you it's very cold out there he
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sees the contractor pull up in the in the pickup truck he goes up to the window and he he says Hi Mr Gacy my name
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is Rob PS I've worked at the pharmacy for quite some time and I heard you're looking to take on some new help well
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Gacy says well I was I was watching you work and you're pretty busy hard worker I like that you know while I was there
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taking my measurements and talking with the with the owner that that's the time when most of the people would kind of
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screw around and you know they're not under the watchful eye of the owner so I noticed the whole time you kept you
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stayed busy and you kept working so yes I would like to talk to you about working for my company
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Rob tells Gacy that he should probably get back inside that he didn't want the owner catching him while on the clock
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talking to the contractor about a new job so he goes back inside but before so Gacy says you know what how about I wait
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for you and we can talk after you're done working and I also have to go inside and collect my appointment book
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and take some more measurements anyway so Gacy goes back in says hi to the owner collects his appointment book he
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you know messes around for a little bit inside the store and then he leaves the pharmacy and he sits in his truck
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waiting for Rob PS well Rob PS comes out at the end of his shift he's talking to
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Gacy he says he's very much interested in a position he couldn't talk much more about it that night because it was his
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mother's birthday his mother was inside the pharmacy waiting to take Rob home when Gacy says you know what we should
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probably hash this out tonight I can't wait around to to hire the right person so how about we talk about the job and
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I'll drive you home afterwards well Rob agrees to this and inside Casey's truck John Wayne Gacy
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explains to the boy that before we can hire you you know we have to fill out some paperwork we have to fill out the
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appropriate tax forms these whole these forms are at my home which is it's only about 20 minutes away right and I could
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drive you home after I'll have you home in about 45 minutes no thanks Rob accepts uh the offer he's hopeful to get
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the new job and now they're back at John Wayne Gacy's home now at this point Gacy
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is going to try to welcome the boy into his home and we know Gacy's attitude by this point he's probably talking a lot
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about himself telling Rob how important he is telling Rob that he's a registered
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clown sounds like somebody else I know yeah and then he offers the kid a beer telling him that here at PDM you will
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learn that you don't just work hard but we play hard too and I can't just hire anyone I gotta make sure that you are a
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good fit now young Rob is eager to get home but he decides that he's willing to play along and hang out with his
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potential future boss and maybe even sit and enjoy a beer with him now Gacy would
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walk off and he would go into the other room to collect the necessary paperwork now when he returned he had the
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paperwork with him but he also had a pair of handcuffs the famous handcuffs and in a sing-songy
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tone he would say I've got a trick I want to show you John Trick I want to show you John waved the Cuffs in front
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of Rob's face showing him that the Cuffs are very much real John then placed the
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cuff around his left wrist and with a couple of clicks the cuff was Secure around his wrist and then John placed
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the open cuff around his right wrist and click click click now both cuffs are secure around Gacy's thick wrist in
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front of his big beer belly he pulled the Cuffs apart and the chains tightened again he did it demonstrating
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that the Cuffs are very real then Gacy lifted up both arms and he quickly turned around and almost
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instantly he turned back around again facing young Rob PS but now the Cuffs were off
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he had performed a real magic trick Rob says how the heck did you do that Casey says I can show you but first
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check this out Casey hands the handcuffs to Rob check them out they're real Rob checks them out looking for a trick
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button or some kind of release but these are real handcuffs Rob agrees these are
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real handcuffs okay Gacy says I'm going to turn around and I want you to put the
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cuffs on my wrist behind my back Rob put the cuffs on Gacy's wrist Gacy spins around again facing Rob again and
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Gacy's out of the Cuffs wow Rob thought he's half surprised at the trick but he's also probably playing along with
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his weirdo because he really wanted to get this good job all right Gacy says you want to know the trick the trick is
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you have to have the key well no [ __ ] and he says this as if he's pulling the key out of thin air Gacy
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holds out his hand and in it is a small handcuff key look here I'll show you how
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to hide the key between your fingers so that no one can see it and I'll show you
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how to slip out of the Cuffs very quickly let's start off by putting these cuffs
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on you yeah yeah how about we don't Gacy secured each of the Cuffs to the boy's thin wrist John with his thick finger
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starts to hand Rob the key and then he quickly pulls his hand back away from Rob
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stop playing around John give me the key Rob watched an amazement and it appeared
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as if Gacy's face was transforming his eyes fluttered and his pupils expanded and became dark it was as if Rob was
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looking at a totally different person Rob heard Gacy's phone ring Rob looked down as he struggled with his arms
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trying to get the Cuffs to budge but they wouldn't and then he hears Gacy's voice
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well we better get you home let's get you out of those cuffs I was just playing around Rob looked up and there
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was the old John Gacy again his big round face smiling Casey took the key and he put it in the cuffs and unlatched
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them Rob tells Gacy you scared me that's some trick the two agreed to collect their things and go returning to Rob's
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home but before they could walk out the front door Casey said you know let me show you one more thing you're gonna
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love this Casey had a three foot piece of rope in one hand and he put picked up a wooden Hammer handle with the other
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hand it's just a wooden handle though there's no hammer head on it he very quickly tied a series of knots and he
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slid the wooden handle through a couple of them check this out Gacy said with excitement and he placed his Contraption
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over the boy's head and around his neck Rob asked what kind of trick is this Gacy twists the handle a few times and
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Rob's face instantly turns beat red Rob is choking and the handle is wedged firmly against his back right Gacy jumps
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back and away from the boy Rob falls to the floor and with one hand he's trying to get his fingers under the Rope around
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his neck and the other hand is twisted up behind his back as he stretches reaching trying to grab the wooden
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handle Gacy laughed and jumped about the room as he watched the boy squirm the more Rob moved the more he jerked the
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tighter the Rope got Rob would not survive this trick Gacy's phone rang again the first time it rang he had let
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the machine get it this time Gacy answered it was Gacy's relative requesting that he go to the hospital
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because Gacy's elderly uncle's Health had taken a bad turn and he was dying Gacy said he would be there in about an
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hour he hung up the phone and he carried Rob's lifeless body into his bedroom he
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stripped the boy and he folded the clothes and placed them in a bag he stuffed one or two pieces of cloth like
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material into Rob's mouth so fluids would not leak out he went back out into the main room he looked around the room
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and he saw the two beer bottles he emptied them and he threw them in the trash he grabbed Rob's parka checked the
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pockets and found a receipt for film from the pharmacy where he had picked up Rob Gacy threw the receipt in the trash
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and folded up the parka and placed it in the bag with the clothes he took a shower got dressed and drove to the
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hospital and on the way he threw the bag with Rob's clothes in it in a Salvation
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Army clothing drop box that night at 11 PM Harold PS with his wife and two children went to the Des Plaines police
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department and filed the following missing persons report Robert Jerome peste male caucasian age
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15 slender to medium build brown hair brown eyes tan Levi's t-shirt brown pants brown suede shoes tan parka last
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seen in the area Nissan's Pharmacy well just a little PSA right if some uh sloppy guy right is telling you hey I
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want to show you a little trick with some handcuffs right you say well first let me show you a Kick let me let me
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show you a crane kick to the grundle yes OB that's what you do the thing here that I found interesting was that Harold
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PS with his wife and the two children they went to the police department and filed the missing persons report yeah
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happy happy birthday to your mother but we're talking about 1978. you know we've
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covered lots of cases where we have missing boys in the late 70s early 80s and they don't really take these reports
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very seriously when you call them in because a lot of times these police go to the effort to go out and look for
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this person and then they find out that the kid was just out on his own doing whatever he wanted to do he was just
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running late or you know decided he was going to take off but this this one's a little weird because he's leaving work
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and his mom was at his work and just never made it home and I like that they went in there with the whole family you
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know and they're telling the officer no this kid is missing you know Harold explains that the kid has been gone for
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hours it's his wife's birthday they were celebrating Rob wouldn't have missed that and he had even called the pharmacy
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to see if Rob would be there he was not he spoke to the owner and the owner said
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you know that that it's possible that Rob might have talked to a contractor or something like that about a job he had
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heard from the other kids well he got the phone number for the contractor and Harold had called to ask
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the contractor about Rob well he ends up getting the answering machine Harold left a message on John Wayne Gacy's
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answering machine very likely right around the same time that Gacy was attacking the boy but we've all been
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there you know I mean we've all been there no I mean we've been all been in Rob's shoes on the idea
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that you know let's say you're talking to somebody about a job oh well so just sit down and have a chat
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and then you realize the conversation is not going to be about the job yeah it's
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going to be and then you just sit there like okay what the hell am I still doing
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here just please let me leave yeah this is is this guy looking for a friend or to hire me right yeah I also think when
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you're about that age you know the the 14 to 16 17 year old boy age I think you know
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you definitely get the creep Factor by certain guys you do you do um but I also think that when you see at
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that age when you see a successful adult you have this opinion of them without even knowing them that there's some kind
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of upstanding person um the next morning the police call John Wayne Gacy's home they speak with him
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because he's at home hosting a meeting amongst other businessmen that he's you know working out some jobs or details of
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an upcoming job and Gacy basically says you know I don't yeah I was at the pharmacy I was there for a job I didn't
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remember talking to any boys I talked to some of the teenage girls that were there I might have maybe a boy asked me
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about some shelving in the back or something like that he goes you know he he comes off like he's trying to be
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helpful but he's not providing any information he's not seen the boy that they're talking about well that that
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evening uh Gacy takes the body of Rob PS he loads it into a 79 Oldsmobile Delta 88 and he drives it to I to the I-55
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bridge over top of the Des Plaines River okay and Gacy gets out of the vehicle he
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opens up the truck he hoists the boy's body up into his arms and he tossed the body into the river the the plus size
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model was good at shot put well after the officer learns the name of the contractor he decides that there's some
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kind of evidence there's enough evidence after talking to people at the pharmacy
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that there's a good chance that this John Wayne Gacy character probably talked to the boy and for whatever
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reason he's not you know admitting to that or honest the truth or he doesn't remember doing so so he decides to run a
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background check on Gacy the next day oh imagine that yeah and he was surprised to find that Gacy had served time for
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committing sodomy on a teenager years earlier soon after after the Discovery Well the officer worked very hard to
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obtain a search warrant for John Gacy's house it was there that he believed that
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he would find Robert PS so once they get the search warrant they're going to search
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the pogos Pogo the Clown's house pogo's Playhouse oh god um yeah so Gacy was not home at the time
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of the search and so they conducted their investigation they went into the home and they're looking for items to
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point to whether Rob he asked it was at the home or if he's still there now they
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don't find Rob PS there some of the items that they found that were confiscated from Gacy's home were the
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following a jewelry box containing two driver's license uh neither of them gacies they also found a couple of rings
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one of them included an engravement on it and this was from the main West High School class of 1975 with the initials
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j-a-s on it they found a box containing marijuana and rolling papers seven pornographic movies
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pills including Valium a switchblade knife a stained section of rug color photograph crafts of pharmacies and drug
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stores an address book a scale books about bi and gay Lifestyles a pair of handcuffs with keys a nylon rope a three
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foot long wooden handle with two holes drilled in each end of it a small starter pistol with with gun caps
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basically like like blanks they also found police badges some sex toys a hypodermic syringe and an unlabeled
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small brown bottle they found clothing that was way too small for John Wayne Gacy and they found a receipt for a roll
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of film with the serial number on it and this was from Nissan's Pharmacy three automobiles belonging to Gacy were also
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confiscated Jesus as a baller including the pickup truck that we discussed earlier it's that plus size model money
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as well as his 79 Oldsmobile and a van with PDM contractors on its side now within the trunk of the car they found
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some pieces of hair I'd like to talk about the receipt that was found right you know there's so we
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should assume that that was the receipt of the boys well that's that's what their thought is so they're the police
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their thought is you know this comes from Nissan's Pharmacy this is where uh the boy was however Gacy was there too
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so we can't prove that this receipt belonged to the boy you know Gacy could have bought film at some point at the
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pharmacy so what they do is they take the receipt and they go back to the pharmacy and they start discussing this
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receipt with a bunch of the employees well they talk with one employee and her name is Kim Byers she's a cashier there
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she's a teenage girl well Rob PS was was a pretty popular kid I mean he was very
00:24:35
well liked by everyone he was good looking kid uh I think he you know he was he was a kid that the the the girls
00:24:42
kind of chased at high school sounds a little bit like the colonel nothing like the curdle anyway they're talking to
00:24:50
these different employees and this Kim buyer says you know what that night was a particularly cold night and the door
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here I'm you know the cashier's up by the door usually and every time the door would open all that cold air would rush
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in so Rob being a nice guy he offers to let her borrow his parka his jacket that's a gentleman yeah he's a gentleman
00:25:13
that's how it's done instead of standing up here and shivering your butt off you
00:25:17
know here wear this parka and you'll be warm for the evening let me keep your butt warm is what he said well Kim Byers
00:25:22
she had a bit of a crush on Rob so she had purchased some film from Nissan's Pharmacy and she purposely put the
00:25:31
receipt in the jacket pocket because she thought you know what he'll find the receipt he'll know that I left it in
00:25:38
there by quote unquote mistake and he'll he'll come in yeah he'll come and talk to me and maybe that's a smart move and
00:25:45
maybe he'll ask me about the film maybe he'll ask me you know what what am I am I into photography or whatever and so
00:25:51
it's you want me to take your picture it's there that the police learn that there is no way that that receipt could
00:25:58
have ended up in Gacy's home unless Rob PS and his parka were at Casey's home at
00:26:04
some point that evening which this is going to give him probable cause to do another search maybe a more in-depth
00:26:10
search and also so let's get to that and let's get to the surveillance of John Wayne Gacy right after this quick beer
00:26:17
break [Music] all right we're back big cheers to Dom over in England driving the bus cheers
00:26:37
to you mate John Wayne Gacy was called into the police department and he was told of the
00:26:42
articles that they had confiscated now Gacy was enraged and he immediately contacted his lawyer the police
00:26:50
basically had nothing to arrest him on and they eventually had to release him after some more questioning about the PS
00:26:57
boy's disappearance Gacy was put under 24-hour surveillance and if anybody knows anything about this 24-hour
00:27:05
surveillance that John Wayne Gacy was on uh it's it's I hate to make light of it
00:27:12
of a terrible situation but it's the stuff that it's a comedy to me right Captain I mean I don't know what
00:27:20
you're talking about Gacy would he would he would purposely you know drive fast so he could lose them he knew he knew he
00:27:27
was under surveillance um he would he would lose them and uh there were other times where he would tell them you know
00:27:34
I know you guys are having trouble keeping up with me so if if you if you can't keep up I'll be at this place in a
00:27:41
half an hour just meet me there and then he would drive off and lose him and sure
00:27:44
enough he would be where he said he was going to be a half an hour later one of the times that he lost that he lost them
00:27:51
uh they called the the airport because they were worried that Gacy would fly out of the country and leave this
00:27:59
situation that's going on because by this point you know they're convinced that they're going to find the PS boy
00:28:06
either at his home somewhere or that he had done something with the boy now they
00:28:13
they call the airport and put put his name on some kind of list and it turns out they find him he's two blocks away
00:28:19
from his house he's he's looking at Christmas trees at a lot somewhere right you know and there was once nothing was
00:28:26
happening one situation the the police car breaks down and these are unmarked police cars but the police car breaks
00:28:34
down and Gacy stops his vehicle he gets out and he goes up to the officers and he says you know what's the problem with
00:28:41
the car and since the car broke down he said okay well uh since you know why don't I just give you guys a lift you
00:28:47
can ride with me uh for the remainder of the day until you get a new car right what's fascinating to me is you're under
00:28:56
surveillance uh for this missing teenage boy and the cops at this point are probably assuming that this teenage boy
00:29:04
is dead and and you're just going about your business you know just buying Christmas
00:29:10
trees yeah nothing's happening yeah and the other thing that's going on here remember we talked about that one ring
00:29:17
that was found in Gacy's home and they end up believing it had the initials j-a-s on it they believed that the the
00:29:26
ring could have belonged to a guy by the name of John sick this is something we talked about yesterday
00:29:32
um the situation here is they also discovered that three former employees of gacies have also mysteriously
00:29:40
disappeared now the problem with this situation is these cases were reported in Chicago
00:29:47
they weren't reported to the Des Plaines Police Department remember the PS family
00:29:52
went to the Des Plaines Police Department to to let them know that Rob was missing right and it wasn't until
00:29:59
then that A Des Plains police officer ran a background check that out three times fast yeah I couldn't I couldn't
00:30:05
say it once um they run the background check and they see that Gacy you know he has this
00:30:11
sodomy charge had the Chicago Police ran his background check with these other missing people and some of these cases
00:30:19
they it was believed the last person who had seen them was Gacy uh we might have
00:30:24
been able to cut this list a little shorter so they don't have the evidence but now
00:30:30
they think that Gacy could be responsible for the murder of anywhere between one to four persons
00:30:37
the thing here is after they searched his home they called in some of his friends now these were I say friends but
00:30:44
they're also people that worked for John Wayne Gacy and two of the people that they talked to and we mentioned these
00:30:51
names yesterday is David cram and Mike Rossi remember we had the discussion we wondered if they were the same person
00:30:58
just using different names you know sometimes when they tell these stories they make up fake names to for potential
00:31:04
victims to to hide their ideas but the jury's out and they are they're different people all right and the
00:31:10
reason why the reason why I got confused was they had similar stories they both worked for John Wayne Gacy they both
00:31:17
told police that at one time or another they had done projects for Gacy at his home and this included digging trenches
00:31:25
in the crawl space as well as lifting up floorboards and digging trenches under there uh they had also glad the colonel
00:31:33
figured it all out they had also poured concrete for him remember Michael Rossi was the boy that
00:31:40
was driving the missing guy's vehicle right um and David cram now David cram he was
00:31:47
with John Wayne Gacy the night that Gacy returned to his home after the first search was conducted and he walked room
00:31:55
to room with John Wayne Gacy as he inspected the things that the the police may have taken and what they looked
00:32:01
through right and during this interrogation process with the police David cram tells them that Gacy the
00:32:09
first place he went to in the home after you guys searched it was the crawl space
00:32:13
where I had dug those trenches before right so at some point we need to check that crawl space yeah that's exactly
00:32:20
what the police want to do they want to get in that crawl space they they didn't
00:32:23
dig around in there the first time now the police also make a lot of statements about saying like you were saying John
00:32:31
Wayne Gacy's giving us rides you know our car is breaking down and he would just kind of stop by and
00:32:37
talk to us and I think he even took him out to dinner and and then a few odd things like that and the police had to
00:32:44
keep reminding themselves like yeah this guy's a very Charming guy and he seems like on the surface just
00:32:51
completely Innocent but there's all these there's all this evidence leading to the fact that he's not so they had to
00:32:58
keep her mind in themselves and we're police officers you know we have to keep doing our job yeah and the police now
00:33:04
they're becoming frustrated because this surveillance that they're conducting they're kind of looking like like fools
00:33:10
in this whole situation because it's it's like I said it's comical um so talk about the fish dinner right
00:33:17
so do you know much about this I I know just a little bit about it you're talking about when he invites the the
00:33:23
guys the officers that are surveilling him right there's right they're out front of his house yeah and he's at this
00:33:30
point he he knows he's under surveillance he's already talked to the cops multiple times
00:33:34
but he cooks on the fish dinner right so they're like okay well we'll go in the house now this is after they searched
00:33:40
already right but as they're eating the fish dinner because you know the fish has you know
00:33:46
an odor odor I think because there was a secondary odor it really Drew their attention to the odor in the house yeah
00:33:58
and and as they're eating this fish dinner they're going something stinks in here yeah and it's
00:34:06
not the fish yeah and I think one of the officers said that it wasn't something that they outwardly noticed immediately
00:34:13
but it was one of those situations where as the longer they sat in the home every
00:34:18
time the furnace would kick on and start blowing that hot air around that they would notice this this foul stench yeah
00:34:25
this funk so the police they are frustrated due to the lack of evidence uh that they've
00:34:31
collected regarding The Disappearance of Robert PS they decide to arrest Gacy on
00:34:37
possession of marijuana and Valium uh during this time during this arrest now Gacy is awaiting action on some other
00:34:46
charges remember yesterday we talked about Jeff ringnall now this guy he is the one that was abducted by Gacy and he
00:34:54
went and he he went to the area that he was taken from and he was looking for the vehicle that that he had gotten into
00:35:00
right and he found the vehicle and he wrote down the license plate well he took that plate to the the police and
00:35:07
once he got there John Wayne Gacy's name from them he filed sexual assault charges against good for him so at this
00:35:15
time unbeknownst to the investigators we have this this other charge this sexual
00:35:21
assault charge right so they they have him in custody and they're going to keep doing more searches but then what comes
00:35:28
from that well they they're also interrogating Gacy at this point and he's already lawyered up what the cops
00:35:35
don't know is that Gacy has already confessed to his attorneys okay well the attorneys think that he's suicidal
00:35:43
because during these confessions he's telling his attorneys you know for many years I've been the judge jury and
00:35:50
executioner of many and I'm going to be the judge jury and executioner of myself
00:35:57
okay so the attorneys believe him to be suicidal and they want to put him in the
00:36:02
hospital this ends up leading to more police interrogations with Mr Gacy during these interrogations Gacy starts
00:36:11
confessing to murder he does state that he had killed someone but it had in fact
00:36:17
been in self-defense of course and that he had buried the body underneath the the garage
00:36:24
well they've not started digging yet uh but this guy still wants to talk and he starts telling them you know
00:36:33
this is something that's happened more than once um I've I've and they start really
00:36:38
digging on them now because he he they suspect him of as many as four that's all they were expecting to hear about
00:36:45
was four and at some point only that's a lot he starts saying well he starts saying it's probably more like 30 people
00:36:53
Jesus uh and he states that he buried most of the remains in the victim of the victims beneath the crawl space of his
00:37:00
home uh I want to take you through these confessions here a little bit okay all right
00:37:05
um the first confession it takes place he says that this took place in uh 71 or 72. well it's a little strange though
00:37:13
that you showed up to the garage today full clown makeup that's my normal get up nowadays
00:37:21
um he he says that this murder took place in 71 or 72 I believe it was in in the month of January he said that he
00:37:27
picked up a boy at a bus station and they decided to drive around smoke some pot they were going to go back to his
00:37:34
place eat some food you know have lots of drinks and he had he had a couple magic
00:37:39
tricks to show them and and just party and he said that they then engaged in consensual sex
00:37:46
he says that he woke up the next morning to find the boy the young man standing in the doorway of his bedroom holding a
00:37:55
knife that the guy had taken from Gacy's kitchen he says that the guy tries to attack Casey and Gacy defending himself
00:38:04
gets the knife from the guy and he stabbed him several times killing the guy this is the guy that he buried in
00:38:12
the garage well not a guy it was a boy okay the other situation is he starts talking
00:38:19
about remember we had uh butkovic his his employee old butkovic well remember they had the dispute about the money
00:38:30
um he tells a story that he decides to when when buckovitch and his buddies come over to try to collect the money
00:38:37
that he said you know what I'll pay you as soon as I can uh we ain't got nothing
00:38:43
to do why don't we you know drink some booze some beers hang out and party he said they partied all night long and
00:38:50
he's not sure what happened but when he woke up the next morning there was a dead boy YOLO with Pogo on his floor
00:38:57
so he had to get rid of it mm-hmm this is yeah um odd stories from John Wayne Gacy
00:39:08
yeah so those are his stories about why they might find some dead bodies in his home on the first day that the police
00:39:16
begin their digging they find two bodies one of the bodies is that of John buckovich who was buried underneath the
00:39:23
garage I believe in this situation Gacy even like put an x on the floor and said
00:39:29
you know dig here right um he was going to kind of lead them to some of the bodies the other body that
00:39:37
they found was in the crawl space as the days passed the body count grew higher some of the victims were found in with
00:39:44
their underwear still stuffed lodged deep in their throats other victims were buried so close together that the police
00:39:51
believed that they were probably killed or buried at the same time the police had removed a total of 27 bodies from
00:39:59
Gacy's home Jesus they also started finding bodies in the Des Plaines River four in total one of the bodies found in
00:40:07
the river well they could easily link that body to Gacy because that man's identification was one of the IDS found
00:40:15
in Casey's home right right right one of the victims found in the river was unidentified but he had Tim Lee tattooed
00:40:23
on one of his arms a friend of the victim's father had recognized the Tim Lee tattoo while reading a newspaper
00:40:31
story about the discovery of the body in the river the victim's name was Timothy
00:40:37
O'Rourke now he was such a fan of Bruce Lee that he took Lee's last name and he added it to his first name to make the
00:40:47
tattoo on his own oh so it was just a really bad idea for a tattoo but glad that they identified him soon after
00:40:56
the discovery of all these bodies the house was destroyed it was basically reduced to Rebel unfortunately among the
00:41:04
32 bodies that were discovered that of Robert PS was still unaccounted for PS was still missing finally in April of
00:41:12
1970 the remains of Robert PS were discovered in the Illinois River his body had been lodged somewhere along the
00:41:20
river making it difficult to find this body and at some point it must have become dislodged and carried the corpse
00:41:27
to The Dresden Dam where it was eventually discovered go with me on this Theory though okay so the first guy he
00:41:34
talks about we already know about the guy that he picked up in Chicago right the one that he he raped
00:41:41
the guy that got away the guy that got away now think about Gacy's first story there's some things that make sense here
00:41:49
yeah it picked up a boy he sexually assaulted him you raped him he wasn't dead and when that boy comes too
00:42:01
that boy grabbed a knife and decided he's going to kill the bastard that did this to him I see I see
00:42:07
what you're saying there's there might be some truth to what went down and actually one of the bodies that was
00:42:13
found uh in his home they believed that now keep in mind a lot of these people are very decomposed by the time they
00:42:19
find them but this person had uh evidence of having been stabbed to death you know where you have the the markings
00:42:26
on the ribs uh from the from the knife yeah so I mean maybe there's some validity there I would suspect myself
00:42:34
that John Wayne Gacy probably killed in Iowa um it's it's possible um the other thing here too is when Gacy
00:42:43
was confessing he said that you know I killed about 30 people he he estimated that there might be about 30 people in
00:42:51
his home that they would find and he said that I threw the last five bodies in the river well they only ever
00:42:57
recovered four four bodies um you know and then we know how many they found at his home but there still
00:43:03
could be that missing victim out there from when he was in Chicago police have a lot of bodies to work with
00:43:09
here and they're going to start using dental records and other Clues to help identify the victims who were found on
00:43:16
Gacy's property all but nine of the victims were finally identified you know there's still a lot of people yeah and
00:43:23
even though their searches had ended we have a trial to deal with regarding John
00:43:28
Wayne Gacy in February of 1980 Gacy's murder trial began in Cook County Illinois jury members consisted of five
00:43:37
women and seven men there was a change of venue requested and what ended up happening was they did not Grant the
00:43:45
change of venue instead the judge decided that he would select jurors from another city and have them bust in very
00:43:53
odd it's just like Casey Anthony yeah that was one of the weird coincidences that we came across and he chose the the
00:44:00
City of Rockford which another coincidence was 90 miles away almost the exact same distance as chosen in the
00:44:07
Casey Anthony case the defense is going to say that John Wayne Gacy Is Not Guilty by reason of
00:44:15
insanity three psychiatric experts appearing for the defense at Gacy's trial testified that they found Gacy to
00:44:23
be a paranoid schizophrenic with multiple personality disorder I want to talk about this for a little bit because
00:44:30
during some of his confessions Gacy kept bringing up another name and this name was Jack Handley he said that Jack
00:44:37
Hanley had committed some of the murders and he even gave a full personality profile of Mr Jack Hanley now but it was
00:44:46
very clear to the people that he was talking with that Gacy was talking about himself Jack Hanley is himself Jack
00:44:53
Hanley is another version of John Wayne Gacy during the opening statements they presented evidence by the prosecution
00:45:02
that left a stunning impression on the jurors and the courtroom Spectators many of them them saying that they had
00:45:08
learned some of the details of Gacy's killings for the very first time Gacy's defense lawyers stated that Gacy's
00:45:16
actions were irrational and impulsive and that he was insane and no longer in control of his conduct
00:45:22
the prosecution brought its first witness to the stand this is Marco bukovic the father of John bukovic he
00:45:31
was the first witness of many that included the family and friends of the murdered victims some of the
00:45:36
eyewitnesses broke down into tears on the bench following the friends and family of the victims came the testimony
00:45:44
of those who worked for Gacy who survived strange sexual encounters with him uh with their boss some of his
00:45:51
ex-employees told of his mood swings and how he would trick them into being handcuffed others told how he constantly
00:45:58
made passes at them while he was at work and in typical fashion the prosecution is going to come out and say well we
00:46:06
found him to be sane yes his their experts say that John Wayne Gacy is a sane man
00:46:12
very much to the surprise of everyone in the courtroom when the defense started their case the first witness that they
00:46:20
called was Jeff rignall remember this was the person that was abducted by John Wayne Gacy right it was expected that he
00:46:27
would have been called to testify on behalf of the prosecution however uh rignal had previously mentioned his
00:46:34
encounter with Gacy in a book and the prosecution believed that it would damage their case if they took him on as
00:46:41
a witness so they didn't call him Casey's defense asked rignal while on the stand if he thought that Gacy was
00:46:48
able to control himself and Jeff did not believe so considering the savagery savagery of Gacy's attack right right
00:46:56
right testimony but you know John Wayne Gates he talks about this later in life too that if you're gonna say that
00:47:03
somebody like for somebody to do what he did if you're going to try to say that that's sane
00:47:11
then you don't want to be on the same side of the fence as that person yeah and and I and I think there's some
00:47:18
validity to that I mean if you're capable of murdering this many people and burying them in your crawl space
00:47:25
you're crazy you know what I mean so but the the problem with our our our system
00:47:32
is that we we make that lenient if the person was insane and it should not be it should be no we we do think you're
00:47:41
crazy but you know you're going away forever well and what the prosecution was trying to
00:47:46
do was they were trying to point out the clear difference to the jury between the
00:47:50
difference of being abnormal and and insane you know they're saying Gacy is not your normal dude uh but he's not I
00:47:57
think he's not legally right right insane we must hold him accountable for his actions
00:48:03
um now Jeff rignall he did not test his testimony did not last very long because
00:48:08
while on the stand he broke down while telling the court the details of his rape uh rignal was so stressed out that
00:48:17
he began to vomit and cry hysterically and he was eventually removed from the courtroom now in an effort to prove
00:48:24
Gacy's Insanity friends and family of gacies were called to the Stan Gacy's mother told how her husband abused Gacy
00:48:31
on several occasions at one time whipping him with a leather strap yeah that's a razor the razor belt we talked
00:48:38
about and Gacy sisters told a similar story of how she repeatedly witnessed her brother being verbally abused by
00:48:47
their father yeah but that's that's no excuse you know you become 18 years old you're
00:48:51
responsible for your actions well after the court proceedings were over uh it only took two hours of
00:48:59
deliberation for the jury to come back with its verdict they found John well that's after one hour of eating in one
00:49:07
hour of a coffee break they found John Wayne Gacy guilty Gacy was found guilty in the deaths of 33 young men and as one
00:49:17
of the people in the court stated that he had the singular notoriety of having been convicted of more murders than
00:49:23
anyone else in American history and Gacy received the death penalty right and it's strange to me uh you talk about a
00:49:33
mom being an enabler which we talked about like Casey Anthony case John Wayne Gacy's mom still never
00:49:41
believed that he was guilty of the crimes right um and I wonder how much of that is that
00:49:48
she believes that her son was insane okay you know that he was not guilty by reason of insanity well diving into the
00:49:56
sick twisted mind of uh John Wayne Gacy we we actually when we had an apartment together we
00:50:02
actually remember those documentaries they started coming out with not documentaries but reenactments I guess
00:50:07
yeah they would do a movie of like a serial killer that yeah Dahmer and I think we watched Dahmer together and I
00:50:13
think we watched and I think we watched uh Gacy together too did Gacy had the the the big guy that played in um Peewee
00:50:21
Herman's Playhouse yeah he was uh uh Buxton I can't remember his first name but uh Francis Buxton yeah the guy
00:50:28
that's paid to have the bicycle stolen and yeah he was also the the he played center for the basketball team on Teen
00:50:36
Wolf oh yeah great movie wonderful movie but great actor though underrated because if you watch that I I would
00:50:44
recommend it as far as entertainment if you if you're into this thing and you kind of want to get a glimpse into maybe
00:50:50
what some of the visual of you know with the Pogo the clown and all that stuff it
00:50:55
was an interesting movie and I think he did a great job you know uh Francis did a great job acting the part uh it's not
00:51:03
very factual I actually re-watched it why you know I'm preparing for the show okay it's not that factual there's a lot
00:51:10
of stuff that they kind of Miss on yeah um and I think that you know Hollywood it up but it is we I think we watched
00:51:18
that when we had an apartment together but something that I thought was really interesting
00:51:24
going back over this and something that I've kind of never thought about too much or never really made my ears perk
00:51:32
up is this idea that you know normally it's like okay John Wayne Gacy saying well
00:51:38
okay so ah there was this other guy and we started thinking that well maybe that's
00:51:44
split personality but when he starts talking later in life before you know his death he's going to
00:51:52
start talking about other people involved yeah and other accomplices and every time that he's like talked about
00:51:59
it in the past I never really put much weight into that yeah during the 80s during his time in
00:52:05
prison he starts bringing up you know that there were other people that helped me with these killings you know there
00:52:11
there were two or I think it sometimes he's he's quoted as saying there are two people that helped him uh other times I
00:52:18
believe he said as many as three people and I think I think the total no I think
00:52:22
uh one of the interviews I watched he said four okay and during that interview he actually named names now again never
00:52:30
put much weight to this until you know one of the accusers talks about that well it wasn't just John
00:52:38
Wayne Gacy there was another guy there yeah Jeff rignall uh he was the one that was abducted and got away and he would
00:52:45
later state that he believed that there was another man present at Gacy's home that night that he was attacked right
00:52:52
which starts making you think well there's some validity and if you listen to the trailer we we talked about how
00:52:58
police work saying well we're denying that we're looking for accomplices but there seems to be like there was some
00:53:05
evidence to point that there might have been during some of the attacks and I would just argue to say this is a guy
00:53:12
that was throwing these huge parties watching these stag films and also these big parties
00:53:18
where they're doing you know orgies and I'm I'm there obviously there's a big stretch from going to that to having
00:53:27
somebody be accomplished of murder but I'm just saying what kind of what kind of people what kind of sick
00:53:35
people was he running with and I think we should play this news clip because I think it will explain the situation in
00:53:42
better detail than what we can [Music] thank you Larry he was known as the Killer Clown
00:53:55
John Wayne Gacy murdered 33 young men and was executed in 1993 but we're learning the Gacy story may not be over
00:54:02
new details of the investigation have only recently come to light and may show Gacy didn't act alone
00:54:08
33 years after his arrest there are still lingering questions about John Wayne Gacy Terry Sullivan was on the
00:54:14
prosecution team I felt that from the beginning that that there may be loose ends it was such a huge case that
00:54:21
especially at the time the idea of a Gacy accomplice was raised from the beginning by Jeffrey rignall he is one
00:54:28
of a few people who survived Gacy's attack he said another man was at Gacy's home the night Gacy raped him
00:54:34
attorneys Robert Stevenson and Steve Becker have been trying to help families of victims find answers they've been
00:54:40
getting tips from the public and they've uncovered information that they say shows someone else may have been
00:54:45
involved in some of the killings there is significant evidence out there that suggests that not only did John Wayne
00:54:50
Gacy not operate alone may not have been involved in some of the murders and the
00:54:55
fact that he was largely a copycat killer for this story we're focusing on two of Gacy's victims Russell Nelson and
00:55:02
Robert Gilroy September 15 1977 Gilroy sends a letter to his girlfriend from a mailbox not far from
00:55:10
Gacy's home then at 6 PM that same day Gilroy is supposed to meet other kids at a bus stop for a trip to equestrian
00:55:18
school but he never shows up he was never seen again but according to Gacy's receipts in
00:55:26
court records Gacy's plane ticket shows he flew to Pennsylvania September 12th and didn't return until the night of the
00:55:33
16th the day after Gilroy was last seen alive could someone have been helping Casey
00:55:39
listen to this recording of a phone conversation between Gacy in prison and a friend in Chicago well I wasn't even
00:55:46
in Illinois with 16 of these so-called individuals disappeared a month later October 1977 Russell Nelson disappears
00:55:53
according to testimony from his mother Russell went to a disco on North Broadway with a friend who was several
00:55:59
years older the friend called the family to say Nelson just disappeared outside the Disco and that he would look for him
00:56:06
if they'd send money he called me two or three times a week and threatened me for
00:56:11
money he said he was staying down here to look for my son Russell Nelson's Brothers went to
00:56:17
Chicago to look for Russell and met with the friend who was asking their mother to send money to help search for Russell
00:56:22
the friend offered Russell's Brothers a job with John Wayne Gacy Russell Nelson's sister-in-law recently told us
00:56:29
the family is anxious for answers I would like to have a review Justice for what they have done to him
00:56:37
or it could have been somebody else out there and another possible connection to
00:56:40
Gacy it turns out a few months before Russell Nelson disappeared Gacy did work at a drugstore just blocks from where
00:56:47
the friend lived I think it tells us that John Wayne Gacy was using other individuals to procure young boys over
00:56:53
state lines according to Becker and Stevenson the friend is still alive and now living in another state if in fact
00:57:00
Casey had other accomplices or people who knew something that was going on now those people should be be brought to
00:57:07
Justice it's scary in and of itself that there may be others out there there's something else mysterious about the
00:57:12
cases of Robert Gilroy and Russell Nelson while Gacy was known to use a rope and board to strangle his victims
00:57:18
the autopsy reports were Gilroy and Nelson show they died from asphyxiation from Suffocation not strangulation the
00:57:27
report says that each had cloth in their mouths foreign in fact 13 victims were listed as
00:57:48
Suffocation another serial killer case may offer insight to Gacy's mode of operation and Terry Sullivan's book
00:57:55
Killer Clown a detective asked Casey where he got the idea for the torture board Gacy replies from Elmer Wayne
00:58:02
Henley Henley and another boy helped serial killer Dean Coral whose case has a lot of similarities with Casey Coral
00:58:10
abducted raped tortured and murdered 28 boys mostly teenagers in the early 1970s
00:58:16
in Houston he often used handcuffs and strangled his victims they do follow Coral's mode of operation almost
00:58:23
identically and one of the most significant Parts about coral is that he used two much younger individuals to
00:58:28
assist him in gathering up and luring in his victims nothing as far as killing or
00:58:33
recruiting or bringing we we had no evidence in it we thought about it but we just never saw any evidence Gacy's
00:58:39
defense lawyer Sam Amarante says he doesn't believe any of it he says Gacy confessed to everything early on and
00:58:46
after years in prison began to change his story I used to talk to Gacy about maybe somebody else committed the
00:58:54
offense maybe Gacy was in some sort of stupor drug state or alcohol State and didn't know what was going on around him
00:59:00
and we sort of would plant a seed and John's brain as to what happened he was kind of saying you know
00:59:08
maybe you know maybe you're right maybe that's really what happened Becker and Stevenson will be taking their case to
00:59:13
law enforcement these individuals did end up in Casey's crawl space so we're just looking to find out the the whole
00:59:18
truth about these cases and we followed these leads to this point if these individuals were waking working with
00:59:24
John Wayne Gacy to procure young boys they should be held to Justice the school open the Gacy case is as complex
00:59:31
as it is disturbing and after three decades there are still questions that haunt investigators as well as the
00:59:37
families of victims still looking for answers [Music] all right thank you Larry so what do you think about everything
00:59:49
that they were reporting on there regarding these the you know the two victims that they talked about you know
00:59:56
Gacy might have been gone during one of the you know off in Pennsylvania yeah I don't know how much
01:00:03
you know I got a plane ticket so that proves I was here nah you don't have anybody that saw you not only that he
01:00:10
could have the boy could have ended up at his house the next day once he got home yeah the the reason why I feel that
01:00:16
there is some validity to this is one they investigated it the prosecution thought there there was maybe some ties
01:00:23
and the fact that there was you know a victim that talked about it and and so that makes it to me a lot more
01:00:32
like a situation with like the Johnny gosh type thing where it's like well here's this guy that was predominant and
01:00:40
and trying to raise his social status and he was around people that had social status
01:00:47
and was there some kind of weird sex ring going on I don't know I I think there is some
01:00:55
evidence to to show that well and I'll tell you what I'm going to kind of present the thing from both sides of the
01:01:01
fence here on on the potential case that there was an accomplice or accomplices um the thing is we have a couple guys
01:01:11
that work for John Wayne Gacy that knew he was a weirdo they said you know he tricked me into handcuffs and he came on
01:01:17
to me and he did all this weird stuff he would have these weird parties but I also even though I knew the guy was a
01:01:24
weirdo I I per you know I did work at his house uh digging trenches and lifting floorboards and and these
01:01:32
different projects and I did it without asking any questions um that does seem a little weird to me
01:01:37
could they have been rounding up people off of the streets for Gacy and he's he's paying them you know 200 bucks a
01:01:45
person or or or something of that nature possibility um right so then by saying well I dug
01:01:52
ditches and stuff you're implementing yourself less yeah yeah and I and I don't want to and now I'm going to talk
01:01:59
about it from the flip side here I don't want to discredit any victim you know this this Jeff guy he was he was
01:02:08
abducted he was taken to Casey's home he thankfully gets away uh he's the one that says he saw another man there uh
01:02:17
but let's keep in mind Jeff was blacking out he was going in and out of Consciousness this entire period is
01:02:24
there a chance that he is misremembering that he doesn't he doesn't fully understand everything that he thought
01:02:31
that he saw during the situation yeah it's possible we also talked about there were several people that said that you
01:02:38
know once Gacy got you in the handcuffs that he almost he he turned into a different person almost like he was
01:02:46
possessed to the point where he even slightly looked different where where they didn't even recognize him
01:02:52
um Jack Hanley yeah well but here's the verdict on that though right John Wayne Gacy Jack Hanley one in
01:03:00
the same both douche canoes yeah so that's one full canoe right there that is um the thing is too heavy the the other
01:03:09
thing is with Gacy we see at the very beginning his defense attorneys now I gotta point this out because this is a
01:03:16
strange situation his defense attorney uh was a private well not a private he was a public defender for several years
01:03:24
this is the colonel and he decided to go into private practice well unfortunate for him his first client was John Wayne
01:03:32
Gacy can you imagine can you imagine that situation but the situation is this you know when his attorney tells Gacy
01:03:39
says you know what you've got to be insane to do this and we're we're going to recommend that we we state that
01:03:45
you're not guilty by the reason of insanity I believe Gacy ran with that he's like oh yeah that's a good idea I
01:03:52
didn't think of that oh remember my good friend Jack Hanley who who did a lot of
01:03:56
these murders so it seems to me like we have a situation here where somebody might have presented some info
01:04:01
information to Gacy and he's saying well I've been stuck in prison for a while my
01:04:06
execution date is Drawing Near how about I get creative like Mr Ted Bundy and you
01:04:11
know Kim Bundy started confessing to things towards the end what if Gacy thought well I can concoct some stories
01:04:17
and buy me some time right yeah again the reason why I have some validity or why I feel there's some validity to it
01:04:26
is one the prosecution thought that it was possible and the victim and this is going to bring us up to
01:04:34
um his execution yes on May 10 1994 John Wayne Gacy was executed at Statesville Correctional Center in Crest Hill
01:04:43
Illinois by lethal injection his last meal consisted of a dozen deep fried shrimp a bucket of original recipe
01:04:52
chicken from KFC a pound of fresh strawberries and french fries now I'm guessing here Captain what actually
01:05:00
happened is he that's probably what he requested he probably got some fried chicken from the prison kitchen
01:05:06
uh his execution was a minor media sensation there were large crowds of people gathered for the execution party
01:05:14
outside of the penitentiary there were several arrests during those execution parties for public intoxication open
01:05:22
container violations and disorderly conduct vendors sold Gacy related t-shirts and
01:05:29
other merchandise and the crowd cheered at the moment when Gacy was pronounced dead
01:05:36
according to reports Gacy did not express any remorse his last words to his lawyer and his cell were something
01:05:44
to the effect that killing him would not bring anyone back it has also reported that his last words were kiss my ass uh
01:05:52
which which is not really what he said while he was you know lying there waiting to
01:05:58
die can you imagine you're the prison guard you're going up and going well we got
01:06:05
poke you yeah and and I kissed my ass they say those are his last words but you know he didn't actually give a final
01:06:11
statement but those were his last words in the sense that when he was being led to the execution chamber he looked at
01:06:18
one of the correctional officers and said kiss my ass I uh kiss my ass well worse than that
01:06:30
several of Gacy's victims that were found buried in his home still to this day have not been identified right and
01:06:36
that's that's a tragedy yeah and we have a situation where I believe that uh within the last 10 years or so they did
01:06:43
identify one of those unidentified victims um there was a situation in 2013 where
01:06:49
there was a man that was always believed to have been murdered by John Wayne Gacy
01:06:54
but he was found living in Montana um so that made him the fifth potential victim found alive in the past two years
01:07:03
between 2011 and 2013. the investigators tracked him down this was after um basically what happened with him was
01:07:12
he the last time his family spoke to him he had stated that he was going to be hitchhiking from New York City out to
01:07:19
California and they thought because they had never heard from their son for all these years that he may have been
01:07:27
passing through Chicago and got picked up by Gacy somehow unfortunately for the family they were they believed him to be
01:07:34
a victim for quite some time but found that he was living in Montana all these years later and he did reunite with his
01:07:42
father unfortunately his mother passed away believing he was a victim right but he didn't he just didn't like his family
01:07:48
anymore he just yeah he he decided to leave town and he never you know reconnected with his family he he
01:07:55
actually didn't even know that he was considered to be a victim of John Wayne Gacy well I want to personally thank you
01:08:02
kernel for uh sharing the stories that will give me nightmares about Pogo and John Wayne Gacy do we have any
01:08:10
recommended reading for the week we do this week we're recommending John Wayne Gacy defending a monster by Sam Amarante
01:08:18
and now Sam is the public defender that turned into his private practice and he became John Wayne Gacy's attorney and he
01:08:29
wrote this many years later but I'll give you a little a little clip here um he answered the phone one day Sam did
01:08:37
and he heard Sam could you do me a favor this is how the story began of what now
01:08:43
has become part of America's True Crime Hall of Fame it's a gory grotesque tale it's almost like a Stephen King novel
01:08:50
and I'll tell you what one thing that I find that's hard to find in the True Crime genre you know so many of these
01:08:56
books are written by former detectives or former FBI they're not true authors they're not true storytellers uh Sam it
01:09:04
would you would think would fall into that category having been a lawyer and then going on to become a judge however
01:09:11
this story it really it reads like a Truman Capote book you know where it reads more like a novel more like like a
01:09:18
story so I highly recommend John Wayne Gacy defending a monster and you can pick that up by going to our website
01:09:24
truecrimegarage.com and click on the Amazon Banner thanks to everybody for listening thanks for the five star
01:09:29
reviews and thank you for telling a friend about the show and we hope to see all of you back here in the garage next
01:09:34
week for another episode and until then be good be kind and don't live foreign [Music]
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[Applause] [Music]