00:00:00
explore today's must have Trends and Innovative Styles at Mrs B's clearance and outlet shop oneof aind finds in
00:00:06
today's must have Trends explore wall to--all deals Furniture flooring mattresses Home Accents seasonal
00:00:13
favorites and more discover unique new home decor pillows accessories and more there's something perfect for your style
00:00:20
and budget there's new inventory every day add up to 80% off suggested retail discover the style and savings of Mrs
00:00:27
be's clearance and Outlet seeking the truth never gets old introducing June's Journey the
00:00:36
free-to-play mobile game that will immerse you in a thrilling murder mystery join June Parker as she uncovers
00:00:42
hidden objects and clues to solve her sister's death in a beautifully Illustrated World set in the Roaring
00:00:47
20s with new chapters added every week the excitement never ends download June's Journey now on your
00:00:56
Android or iOS device or play on PC through Facebook games [Music] West Memphis 3 West mempis
00:01:08
[Music] 3 Damen Eckles and Jason Baldwin Jesse Miss Kelly West Memphis [Music] 3 they were just 8 years old Steven
00:01:25
Branch Michael Moore and Christopher Myers found murdered honked hide and naked in a drainage dit in West Memphis
00:01:33
West Memphis [Music] 3 the state stands behind the convictions I am very excited for this
00:01:47
upcoming conversation this evening I am joined in the garage by a one Dan stum a man who
00:01:55
has been an attorney currently a judge a true crime author on a case that he worked for most of his life and a case
00:02:06
that many people out there listening know very well that's the West Memphis 3 case the case from Arkansas
00:02:14
1993 Dan Mr sidm welcome to the show thank you I'm glad to be here it's an honor would you tell us a little bit
00:02:23
about your journey you know just your life's journey from being a young man becoming an attorney and now a judge uh
00:02:31
sure um I'm was born in Chicago wanted to be a lawyer uh my entire life according to my mother I used to stand
00:02:41
on tree stumps in the yard and and give closing arguments to juries um I guess You' have to rely on my mom for her uh
00:02:51
credibility but that's what she says anyway I've always wanted to be a criminal lawyer I had no interest in and
00:02:58
uh anything else and um that's why I became a a judge is because uh 99% of what I do as a judges
00:03:08
uh involves criminal law so I feel like I'm in where I'm supposed to be did you always want to represent defendants or
00:03:16
did you ever see yourself as maybe on the other side as a prosecutor no I've always felt like I belonged in the
00:03:25
defense uh category and and I'm not sure where that comes from I've been told that I have a savior complex by some
00:03:35
people and I'm not sure exactly what that means but um I just feel strongly about the Constitution and not the most
00:03:43
recent interpretations of it but the the original you know the Fourth Amendment and the Fifth Amendment and the sixth
00:03:50
amendment and it's very important to me that that people have and and they deserve a zealous defense despite the
00:03:59
how gruesome the case may be or how simple it may be it's uh it's very important to me I I'm became a public
00:04:06
defender because of that I thought it was a great way to get experience as a young lawyer uh after saying what
00:04:13
everybody says after they graduate from law school I'm never going back to my hometown again uh except to visit my
00:04:20
parents and and uh naturally I ended up right back in parag Gold Arkansas so um here I am still looking back back
00:04:30
uh on this I I I see my life as having two segments one that was normal and one that became uh I'd hate to use the word
00:04:40
abnormal but the the other end of the stick uh sort of because uh on May the 7th I believe it was 1993 my life
00:04:50
changed forever and I had no idea what I was getting involved in um or how long it would take or that I would end up
00:04:58
writing a book about it that's a great question so why the book now the book came out late last year it's a fantastic
00:05:05
it's a fascinating read but why do you choose to break what's referred to as your self-imposed silence after all
00:05:14
these years and that is a very good question and and it's got a pretty simple answer um number one um in 2008
00:05:23
when I became a full-time judge and was no longer able to work on the case I became a witness uh in the case um with
00:05:32
the with the issue being ineffective assistance of counsil and in my book I'm very candid about this was my first jury
00:05:40
trial and most people are shocked by that uh a triple homicide of 38y olds uh not exactly a perfect fit for your first
00:05:49
jury trial it's like going to the Super Bowl in your uh rookie year I expected fully when I accepted the case thought
00:05:58
my wife or now ex-wife Kim would talk me out of it but she encouraged me which surprised me so I took it even though my
00:06:06
father had admonished me not to I was 30 years old and and I thought it was a good idea so I did it I don't have any
00:06:12
regrets um it's been a long hard run and um I've suffered from it I lost my marriage because of it it affected my
00:06:22
children affected my health uh stole my faith uh which has now been restored it was a very very uh rough trip and I
00:06:31
think as I said in the book I I uh was on a long journey and I didn't have time to
00:06:37
pack cuz things were happening so quickly there's that line in my life the the first 30 years and now I'm in my
00:06:44
61st year and I realized uh back on March 3rd when I turned 61 that I was an old person all of a sudden so I'm older
00:06:53
than dirt and I didn't realize that at 60 but the day I woke up 61 I'm at everything hurt everything my knees hurt
00:07:01
my my back hurt and so U I guess it's official I'm I'm old that part I can't change so um it is what it is the title
00:07:11
of the book is a harvest of Innocence what does that phrase mean to you well there's no winners in this case first
00:07:23
because of the the way that it it unfolded and the um treachery that was involved in obtaining the convection uh
00:07:33
in the first place uh there were things such as jury misconduct prosecutorial misconduct
00:07:40
police misconduct which is imputed to the prosecutor which I firmly believe and um and I speak of it freely in the
00:07:47
book but to get back to your original question the second prong The aler Plea was not my doing I was a witness in my
00:07:57
own ineffective assistance since a council hearing which wasn't a pleasant thing to do but it it was something that
00:08:05
I had to do of course and and I told the truths which most lawyers don't uh they
00:08:10
always say I it was trial strategy that's why I did it this way they never admit that they did anything wrong
00:08:17
because their ego won't permit it but I don't have an ego I have an an absolute obligation and duty to my client and so
00:08:26
I told the truth and I was very unprepared prepared to have this be my first jury trial it violated the
00:08:33
American Bar Association standards that um that were in place at the time even though I thought it was going to be for
00:08:40
plea simply getting my client ready to testify against the other two it didn't turn out that way and ended up being a a
00:08:46
jury trial so uh I had been involved in a couple capital murder cases uh in law school conspiracy to commit capital
00:08:55
murder case capital murder case as a public defender I should say an apprentice to the public
00:09:01
defender our County public defender at the time so I mean I I had some experience but it wasn't you know the
00:09:08
experience that you need to conduct a a jury trial everybody tells me I did a wonderful job um and despite how sure I
00:09:16
am that it really must have hurt judge brunette sadly to Proclaim me as the best lawyer That Ever Walked the planet
00:09:23
the truth of the matter is I wasn't ready for this task and I didn't uh pull any punches I I uh I criticized
00:09:31
everybody for their mistakes in the book including my own it is what it is and my
00:09:36
fear in life my greatest fear in life was um I didn't know the aler plea was happening until the night before I got a
00:09:44
courtesy phone call from the prosecutor so I had no idea why it was happening because during the rule 37 hearing we
00:09:51
had completely and totally destroyed the state's case I mean it made them look like idiots and that's a tough word but
00:09:59
uh the truth that uh Miss Kelly's confession made absolutely no sense there's no such thing as a Satanic
00:10:05
ritual homicide despite the fact that some people go to seminars in 2024 to learn about Satanic ritual crimes
00:10:13
there's just it's a fairy tale I just don't hold back and and um but the Alfred plea itself is is a oxymoron as
00:10:23
my former colleague uh the late um Dennis Reen from San Francisco who was Damian's attorney one set of his he had
00:10:31
East Coast attorneys and West Coast attorneys that's how Dennis Reen who passed away a couple of years ago he
00:10:38
described it as an oxymoron and it is because I don't let people in my courtroom plead guilty to something they
00:10:44
didn't do so why are we doing this even though we're maintaining our innocence it's still going to be a conviction in
00:10:50
the light of the law so why are we doing this when we're going to get a new trial
00:10:54
and we're going to win straight up in the courtroom which has been my dream for many many years most of my adult life as
00:11:02
you pointed out uh I was shocked and I didn't understand it it was good for Damian because he'd been on death row
00:11:10
for 18 years and 78 days and he was ready to get out of there and I don't blame him and it was good for Jesse
00:11:15
mkelly because he's intellectually challenged and whether he has a felony conviction or not it's not going to
00:11:21
affect the outcome of his life because his disability is permanent there's no cure for it it's not going to help him
00:11:27
get a job it's not going to help him in life so or or create any problems for him in life so um but Jason Baldwin is
00:11:36
the one who took it on the chin and basically sacrificed himself and his demand uh for for justice and to be
00:11:44
declared innocent like which was my dream as well part of the aler ple was that um all three defendants who
00:11:53
maintain their innocence had to stay out of trouble for 10 years or they would um
00:11:58
end up having to serve the rest of their terms which I cannot remember the the number of years it's been 12 years ago
00:12:06
had they committed another crime which they never did then they would have had to go back to prison so I wanted to wait
00:12:13
10 years before I came out with my book because I did not want to piss anybody off that would that would create a
00:12:21
problem for these three young men whose lives had been destroyed uh just for the
00:12:26
sake of uh having somebody to blame it on have an a scapegoat and I wanted to get past that 10-year period And so uh
00:12:34
during that 10-year period I started riding and I had been riding for a number of years even before finally uh I
00:12:42
came to terms with uh what it cost me and what it cost me selfishly was the right to walk back into that courtroom
00:12:51
and win uh a case that I should have won at trial and I should have won on Direct
00:12:57
appeal to the Arkansas Supreme Court we were going to win after the ryal 37 hearing so I'm sitting here wondering
00:13:04
why are we doing this but at the time it seemed like a win for at least for my client and Damian but uh Jason is the
00:13:12
one who suffered the most and it took me a while to be able to talk about some of
00:13:16
these deep dark things that I had to endure and getting back to your original question um the Harvest or a harvest of
00:13:25
Innocence there's two reasons for that one there was a a journalist uh who he I don't know if he still has a column with
00:13:34
the largest newspaper in Arkansas the Democrat Gazette or not but he wrote an article and that was the title of the
00:13:42
article and essentially he said I don't know what they proved but uh the only thing I know for sure is is that this
00:13:51
was uh can't remember the exact towards a cruel Harvest of Innocence or a terrible Harvest of innocence and so
00:13:58
that just kind of stuck in my mind and and when I was exploring ideas for the title to the book that's what I came up
00:14:06
with and when I contacted uh my co-author and we began in Earnest writing the book in
00:14:12
2014 uh he hated the title he could because he couldn't understand it because he didn't he was one of the few
00:14:18
people on the planet that didn't know anything about the West Memphis case so I had to bring him up to speed which was
00:14:24
of course a a difficult task to do and after we got near the end uh he said I like the title because it's it rings
00:14:34
true it uh this was uh the the actually Philip Martin who wrote the article called it the evil Harvest of Innocence
00:14:43
but I didn't want the book to sound like a you know some kind of uh what is the word I'm looking for something that
00:14:50
wasn't true crime something that was I didn't want to make it into a monster movie I guess what I'm trying to say
00:14:55
yeah and I mean the case itself there's already enough evil in it yeah we've we've been through that part of it
00:15:02
certainly now I'm glad that you refer to it as an oxy [ __ ] because that's exactly as I saw and I I remember all
00:15:09
those years ago when the news broke it was like during the week at some point and I was meeting a friend of mine for
00:15:16
lunch and I said to him you said the person you just mentioned was one of the few people on the planet that had never
00:15:22
heard of the West Memphis 3 case well my my friend that I was meeting for lunch that day knew almost nothing about it as
00:15:29
well and I said and I was angry and I said he goes what are you so angry about I said well this case and he goes I
00:15:35
don't know nothing about the case Nick but what is what is this Alfred plea thing and I said look I said I don't
00:15:41
know much about it either I said but here's my understanding of it that if you if you beg and plea that you are
00:15:48
innocent they will keep you locked up in prison for 18 years but but if you tell
00:15:53
them that you're guilty and yeah I did it they'll let you go free like that's that was my interp my my novice
00:15:59
interpretation of it in in Anger that moment there there's a very compelling chapter in the book about me trying to
00:16:07
gain access to my client before The Plea and and the Hoops I had to jump through
00:16:13
to to be able to do that and I don't want to give anything away but but uh I didn't realize it at the time but they
00:16:20
thought that I was there to stop the Alfred play and like I said at the time I thought it was a win cuz my client was
00:16:27
going home I promised him uh after he was convicted that I would never give up until he got to go home and be with his
00:16:34
dad and and I I was keeping my promise so I thought this is good the world's been lifted off my shoulder um I can
00:16:42
write my book when it's time and but it's more complicated than that it's very complicated to that and the younger
00:16:48
the audience that I speak to the harder it is to explain because they don't understand and you know to give you an
00:16:54
example someone in my court just the other day said well I'm not guilty but I'm ple guilty just to get this over
00:17:00
with and I said no you're not I'll see you in July for trial we're going to have a trial because I got to be able to
00:17:08
sleep tonight um you either did it or you didn't and if you didn't I'll acquit you and if you did then I'll set your
00:17:15
punishment we don't do Alfred Polie in my courtroom because I don't believe in them so it took me literally eight of
00:17:23
those 10 years before we published to really dig down deep enough to understand then a why B how did it
00:17:33
happen who whose idea was it and who who uh came up with the idea and and um because I Nick I'd always imagined
00:17:43
myself all these years and during these 18 years and 78 days of being Russell Crow walking into the Coliseum with a
00:17:51
large sword cutting the heads off my enemies and I was really looking forward to that right and all of a sudden they
00:17:57
pulled the rug out from under me I was not exonerated so my innocence was harvested my innocence was harvested
00:18:04
because of what did to my family and my marriage and my life um but that pales in comparison obviously to the Innocence
00:18:15
that was Harvest from the 3 eight-year-olds the their their parents and grandparents and family uh and
00:18:22
siblings and it's horrible and I lost a child myself a couple of years ago it'll
00:18:27
be 3 years in October an adult child and I just got a phone call one day and says
00:18:32
your son's dead and so suddenly I'm in the club and and it's a club you don't want to be in and so I actually went
00:18:39
back um and poured the rough draft of the book through that filter of being the parent of a deceased child and and I
00:18:49
think it helped the tone and the particularly the ending of the book and then my also my wife lost her second
00:18:58
born uh who was 39 years old it um it changed things uh you look through it through a
00:19:05
different set of glasses than you did before so and also it harvested the innocence of the West Memphis 3 and
00:19:13
their parents and their families I used to have nightmares of going to jail for something I didn't do and of course I
00:19:18
knew why I was having the nightmares but uh it didn't make it any more pleasant uh it was tough didn't deal with the
00:19:26
stress appropriately of losing a child so I understand understand better their situation two of the three sets
00:19:31
appearance ended up on our team at the end um which was um certainly feather in our cap why would we give up a case that
00:19:41
we were going to win that's been the thing that's been bugging me for the last 10 years I decided uh I say I
00:19:48
decided Tom McCarthy my co-author uh who who eventually fell in love with the with the title he um and I agreed to to
00:19:57
tell the story differently than it's ever been told MH there's two reasons for that cuz number one it's it's never
00:20:04
been told with this sort of uh narrative and second it's the truth it it's the truth that's never been told so people
00:20:12
who choose to go out and buy Harvest of innocence and read it they're going to be shocked especially if they've kept up
00:20:17
with the case over the years or their newbies who weren't even born yet that's our highest audience uh on Facebook is
00:20:26
18 to 30y old old who weren't even bornn yet when when this happened so everybody
00:20:32
says the the OJ trial was the trial of the century and I disagree of course I'm a little bit biased this case has never
00:20:42
ever been on the headlines for the last 31 years yeah and I don't know that it's
00:20:48
that it goes away unfortunately no I I I agree I agree completely and um there's
00:20:55
so many things similar to what happened in Salem Massachusetts and and I mean it
00:21:02
happened almost exactly a hundred years apart and here we are still burning witches at the state in
00:21:10
1993 um and we continue to do that because people can't wrap their minds around what a false confession is and um
00:21:20
that was my biggest enemy besides the judge and the prosecutor themselves um who prosecutors are all about winning
00:21:30
good prosecutor is interested in justice but a right but a bad prosecutor is winning at all cost I guess that's why
00:21:38
I've always been been a defense attorney um and you know I was afraid when I ran for
00:21:45
judge that uh people were going to be afraid of former public defender being a judge they thought I was going to turn
00:21:51
everybody loose but I call them as I see them just like an Umpire in a ball game
00:21:56
that's a bad metaphor I suppose but but uh it's the truth I'm glad I waited those 10 years not just for the sake of
00:22:03
the West Memphis 3 but I needed that 10 years to let all this soak in and read the transcripts of the rule 37 hearings
00:22:12
which I was excluded from because I was a witness and was not allowed to be in the courtroom I knew you know in a basic
00:22:19
format because of they provided affidavits of what the Witnesses were going to testify to but there were
00:22:24
things that shocked me in those transcripts that uh made me start asking questions and that I wanted the answer
00:22:31
to but nobody wanted to talk about it right it's like hey we we got out of this with and saved face we got off the
00:22:38
boat before it sunk back to the narrative that we chose for the book we chose the Titanic is the best example in
00:22:47
the Titanic the movie starts out with um recovery vessel or the the vessel that was sending the subd down to the wreck
00:22:55
for the first time and one of the very few survivors left at the time and then the story morphed into her telling her
00:23:05
story sort of the background which was compelling I thought that's what we need to do and it took me a while to convince
00:23:12
Tom of that but I didn't want you know Mar's book which was outstanding and um Devil's not and um I keep expecting my
00:23:20
thank you card from her cuz she selling a lot of books these days because of my book my book kind of comes in and
00:23:28
finishes the story and all those things that I couldn't tell Mar about or and all the things that I couldn't tell the
00:23:35
documentarians about you know I'm sure they're not happy with me because um you don't want to call the 800 lb gorilla uh
00:23:44
names or poke him with a stick uh and expect them to later rule in your favor on a case that you've sworn to overt and
00:23:53
so I couldn't write the book I couldn't tell the documentarians about the what I knew because I had to depend on
00:24:01
the Arkansas Supreme Court to do the right thing and ultimately they did and it wasn't a coincidence that judge
00:24:08
Bernett was finally off the case and happened months later that they overturned his decision and send it back
00:24:15
for consideration for a new trial which we were going to get not just because of
00:24:20
my inexperience as a lawyer in 1993 and 1994 when the trial was held but because
00:24:27
judge had committed some ethical violations and he should have recused himself from the case but refused so we
00:24:35
were going to win on that issue alone so I started digging and um trying to figure out how this all came about it
00:24:42
took years trying to convince people to talk about it some of them wanted to talk about it but wouldn't for political
00:24:50
reasons some of them knew why but wouldn't tell me on the record because they were afraid that they wouldn't be
00:24:57
able to work in in our baileywick here in Northeast Arkansas and I understand that because I I've had the same
00:25:05
feelings for for years you know I wanted to talk about these things but I thought
00:25:09
I I got a job I need to make a living and feed my kids so it was time [Music] the weather's getting warmer time to
00:25:31
ditch the jackets and sweaters for shorts and teas but there's no need to waste money on clothes that last only
00:25:37
one season with Quint now you can get high quality pieces that never go out of style that you'll be wearing year after
00:25:45
year Quin has all of the seasonal must haves like 100% European linen shirts from $30 performance polos and versatile
00:25:55
flown knit active Weare the best part all Quint items are priced 50 to 80% less than similar Brands by partnering
00:26:04
directly with top factories Quint cuts out the cost of the middleman and passes the savings on to us and Quint only
00:26:12
works with factories that use safe ethical and responsible manufacturing practices along with premium fabrics and
00:26:20
finishes I love Quint I've been filling my closet with Quint I will be doing so in the warmer months as well I'm buying
00:26:29
high quality pieces that never go out of style they're always in fashion and they
00:26:34
last they're durable and they're quality upgrade your wardrobe go to quince. garage for free shipping on your order
00:26:42
and 365 day returns that's qu nc.com garage to get free shipping and 365 day returns quinn.com
00:26:56
garage warmer sunny your days are calling fuel up for them with factors no prep No Mess meals meet your Wellness
00:27:04
goals in time for summer thanks to the menu of chef-crafted meals with options like calorie smart Protein Plus and keto
00:27:11
Factor fresh never frozen meals are dietitian approved and ready to eat in Just 2 minutes so no matter how busy you
00:27:19
are you'll always have time to enjoy nutritious great tasting meals with 35 different meals and more than 60 add-ons
00:27:27
to choose from every week you'll always have new flavors to explore crush your Wellness goals this may with dietitian
00:27:35
approved meals and ingredients that you can trust make your day Delicious from breakfast to dessert stay fueled with
00:27:43
easy nutritious options treat yourself to restaurant quality meals that feature premium ingredients like filet Manan
00:27:52
shrimp and black and salmon I am new to factor and I have been loving every minute of it I have a problem and it's
00:28:00
called lunch some days I need a pack of lunch and some days I work from home whether I'm at home or whether I'm on
00:28:06
the go factor is fueling my lunch from now on head to factor meals.com truecrime garage 50 and use code True
00:28:16
Crime garage 50 to get 50% off your first box plus 20% off your next month that's code True Crime garage 50 at
00:28:26
Factor meals.com True Crime garage 50 to get 50% off your first box plus 20% off your next month
00:28:36
while your subscription is active as a true crime garage listener you know the world can be a dangerous and
00:28:42
unpredictable place with every case we've learned one thing your best line of defense is your vigilance and
00:28:50
preparation that's why you should invest in Simply Safe home security today Simply Safe was named best home security
00:28:56
systems 20 24 by the US News and World Report Newsweek ranked it best customer service in home security whole home
00:29:07
protection is what you get with Simply Safe it sensors to detect break-ins fires floods and more plus you can get a
00:29:14
variety of indoor and outdoor cameras it's backed by 247 professional monitoring for less than $1 a day no
00:29:23
contracts and a 60-day money back guarantee Simply Safe is simply one of the very best security systems that you
00:29:34
can purchase for your home and your property and I've been telling you about Simply Safe for years now and how great
00:29:41
they are but don't just take my word for it US news world report and Newsweek are
00:29:46
all saying check out Simply Safe one of the best in the business Simply Safe has
00:29:52
given me and many of my listeners real peace of mind I want you to have it too get 20% off any new simplysafe system
00:30:01
when you sign up for fast protect monitoring just visit simplysafe doccom garage that's simply safe.com
00:30:10
garage there's no safe like [Music] simplysafe at the same time though too I mean it's a it's a conflict interest and
00:30:28
if you would have went down that road I mean you have the fiduciary duty to keep
00:30:33
your client's best interest at at heart in mind at all times and that was my Guiding Light through throughout and and
00:30:40
had you gone down that road you would have been no better than the prosecutor who was just looking for a win and and
00:30:45
Bernett who decided that this was his his case and this was good and wanted things his way and so I applaud you for
00:30:54
doing that Bernett was a prosecutor before he was a Circuit Judge but he never forgot he was a prosecutor one of
00:31:00
the Legends I learned as of early on is uh I don't know if it's true if it was a
00:31:06
myth or what it was but it certainly circulated prolifically uh was that one time a prominent lawyer from Jonesboro
00:31:16
uh during a jury trial in a criminal case said judge why don't you and the prosecutors wear jerseys with your names
00:31:22
on the back so there won't be any confusion on the part of the jury that you're on the same team and and that's
00:31:28
pretty much the way it was throughout our trial as well I'm glad that you mentioned Mar leverett's book The
00:31:33
Devil's not because I was telling somebody the other day that it's the the it's so sad that this is a true story
00:31:41
because her book's almost a perfect book A A Perfect Crime mystery book and then
00:31:48
there's been no shortage of books to come out about this case over the years but so many of them
00:31:56
are largely opinionated pieces biased and mythological yeah and then your book comes out and the reason why I was so
00:32:04
excited about your book was knowing that you are an officer of the court that you
00:32:10
would be holding yourself to a a different standard than those other books that were coming out and I knew
00:32:17
when when I got the opportunity to read it that I better keep my eyeballs open and be paying attention at all times
00:32:25
because the information in those pages is going to be far superior to that than books that have come out since we've
00:32:34
self-published and the reason that we self-published is we spent a couple of years shopping this thing around
00:32:41
Publishers and their response was always H this story's been told and several books and four documentaries and a
00:32:49
feature film and one of the things that people don't understand or realize that I didn't feel like I needed to put it in
00:32:57
the book uh and well maybe I did I don't remember I worked on that thing so many
00:33:03
times and read it a million times that sometimes I'm surprised when someone asked me about paage such and such and I
00:33:10
said oh well yeah I did say that didn't I but but um I actually turned down potentially
00:33:17
$100,000 for not being uh in Devil's KN as the main character um because I didn't want to be a part of a horror
00:33:25
flick and I wanted to retain my story right so I could write this book so one of the myths surrounding this case is
00:33:32
that I'm a millionaire that HBO paid me millions of dollars to participate in those documentaries I'm just the average
00:33:40
Joe I work paycheck to paycheck and hope I got enough money at the end of the month to pay the bills which reminds me
00:33:46
today's the third and my house payment was due on the 1 and that that kind of stuff really gigs me because I mean it
00:33:54
just it's ridiculous I I never made a nickel yeah other than what the court paid me and and they didn't even pay you
00:34:00
what they said they were going to pay you no judge brette said you're going to get paid $40 an hour for you know
00:34:06
investigation and and witness preparation and Discovery and things of that nature and then $60 an hour for in
00:34:14
court and we ended up not only getting was $19 and change $21.73 per hour to be exact I made a
00:34:26
note earlier today um and we had over 2,000 hours in the case more TW almost twice as much as
00:34:36
some of the other lawyers legal teams and we also received the least amount of all three legal teams I I feel like that
00:34:43
was out of spite oh it was I mean I agree completely and I asked judge brunett can you explain to me how you
00:34:49
came to these calculations and he refused to answer the question math is not his strong suit
00:34:59
but you know and it's funny because you know maybe not not so funny but people see people on TV and they just make this
00:35:06
assumption that that equals a lot of money and I've I've been fortunate enough to be a part of a few different
00:35:13
documentaries myself and you know I was going to say if your paycheck was anything like mine uh that I received
00:35:19
from those documentary we should just hold hands and feel bad for each other ask my kids about their student loan
00:35:24
payments they'll tell you ex exactly now this the the thing here though too that
00:35:30
I feel like this is one of those cases that and to say it's polarizing would be the understatement of the year but with
00:35:37
this case I think that it gets lost on some people that there are so many victims in this case but it really truly
00:35:48
starts with the three boys Chris Michael and Stevie sure and I really Lov the way
00:35:56
that you chose to start your book at the very beginning of the book I could feel
00:36:02
your anger when you said the Killer is alive today I am sure of it he had breakfast today maybe he checked his
00:36:09
mail went to work watched TV or took a drive he's been doing whatever he's been doing since May 5th 1993 tell us exactly
00:36:18
what that what that means to you and why you chose to to put those words on that
00:36:23
page cuz I'm still looking for a kill killer and I'll never stop looking until I I take my last breath and that sounds
00:36:32
Noble and maybe too Noble for some of those people who don't believe uh the innocence of the West Memphis 3 but uh I
00:36:41
always think about what Mark T wants Mark Twain once said never argue with a fool cuz onlookers will not be able to
00:36:47
tell the difference I choose not to engage people who don't have the intellectual capacity to understand
00:36:55
science and and facts um and uh and if people are upset about that then they can be upset send me an email uh knock
00:37:05
on my door or whatever uh but it's the truth if if you read my book and you don't come to the conclusion that these
00:37:12
three kids are inocent there's something wrong with you and I I know that sounds
00:37:16
harsh but uh after 30 something years of this these few people who some people refer to them as
00:37:25
nons some people um referred to them as the intellectually challenged I have referred to them as just a pain in my
00:37:33
ass um I hope I can say that on your podcast there's no sense arguing with them because you're never going to
00:37:40
convince them anyway so I just avoid them but you know my my goal is in writing the book which I have to answer
00:37:48
the narrative question a little bit with a little more detail I didn't go into Damian and and uh Jason's trial for a
00:37:57
reason because I wasn't their lawyer later on I became a ninja and was Jason's lawyer and in the bushes but um
00:38:07
I wanted to talk about the book is my story right and sometimes I felt like force Gump I just kind of happened to be
00:38:15
there when everything happened and the narrative is the same as Abraham Lincoln the movie and Titanic uh we all know the
00:38:25
the boat sank and thousands of people died and we know that President Lincoln got shot in Forge theater and and died
00:38:34
but while we're watching the films we're all praying and hoping to get up get out
00:38:39
of that bed and be president again we need you it was very important for me to not let the record be set with the
00:38:47
outred plea that nobody understands I wanted to tell the goals of my book were to a tell my story which is the least of
00:38:56
my goals for the book uh second I wanted to explain to everybody what a uh false
00:39:04
confession was and why Jesse misskelly gave one and if you actually look at the science involved then it's easy to see
00:39:12
but if you're not willing to look at it or understand it or even consider it then you're never going to understand
00:39:18
that but I didn't write it for money I wrote it because I wanted the truth to be out there I wanted people to really
00:39:26
have a true understanding in of what took place why it took place and the motives behind it I think you've earned
00:39:32
the right to be as harsh as you want I mean you've had to you've had to watch you've had to watch so many people be be
00:39:41
bullied and wronged for so long and it it's not just the the defendant that you represented and he and the other two
00:39:52
young men that were prosecuted as well but also Chris's Christopher's family and Michael's family and Stevie's family
00:40:02
and it's I mean you've you've had to have regular interaction with people that were wronged and bullied for so
00:40:09
long I don't know to be frank with you I think you're overly polite I don't you know you
00:40:16
you're you're incredibly polite for for having to endure that for so long well as I've stated at the at the beginning
00:40:25
of the book um even though I've earned the right to be angry um I'm no longer angry because the the the truth is
00:40:34
coming out and uh there's an old saying and I can't remember it and I shouldn't be trying to say something I can't
00:40:42
remember but uh the truth starts out is something that is uh people are angry about and won't accept and then it
00:40:51
eventually is accepted as the truth and that's kind of what took place here to give an example of of why I I think it's
00:40:59
funny that some of these people just won't come off of the not believing their innocence uh one silly person uh
00:41:07
on Amazon wrote very harsh um review that I didn't even talk about a Bible confession or I didn't talk about this
00:41:17
or I didn't talk about that I can't even remember them and I addressed each and every one of them yeah the person
00:41:23
couldn't have read the book you absolutely address the Bible confession the state of Arkansas would love nothing
00:41:29
better than this thing to go away and I would be damned if I would let that happen without a true accounting of of
00:41:36
the story well and they they they clearly don't I mean obviously in any case the state Arkansas Texas Ohio what
00:41:47
have you no state would want to compensate but they don't want to compensate these three men for spending
00:41:54
18 years in prison well that they offer will always be there so that'll that means no compensation but they deserve
00:42:02
exoneration yep and uh Jason Baldwin would like to go to law school but he can't because he's a convicted felon and
00:42:10
he could go and get his decree but they' never be able to practice law they probably can't vote own a firearm a few
00:42:18
different I would think there would be a few different restrictions on them well
00:42:22
he told me not too long ago that he doesn't go out of the country anymore because every time he gets strip
00:42:29
searched and cavity searched and and um feels like he's in prison again he's stained for the rest of his life yeah
00:42:36
and and um which reminds me I owe him a phone call he and I've been playing phone tag
00:42:42
for the last week or so um well and and he's somebody that I would love to talk to because I know that like and you put
00:42:49
it pointed out so clearly in concisely in your book and I appreciated this because that Alfred was an All or
00:42:58
Nothing deal it was all three of you say yes or all three of you you know one no
00:43:04
in the group and we're not doing this thing and like you said earlier Jason he had the least amount to gain and the and
00:43:14
and the most to lose by agreeing to that plea deal and I I would I would love to
00:43:20
hear it from him exactly and I can't speak for him but I did interview him and he provided some great information
00:43:29
some of which I wasn't even aware of uh because I I wasn't at his trial nor did I represent him and I explained how I
00:43:36
did that in the book because his lawyers had abandoned him and I couldn't stand to see him not be on board the train
00:43:43
that led to uh hopefully exoneration someday um maybe the governor who's going to Pardon them is in junior high
00:43:52
right now I don't know but uh I may not be around when when that happens but eventually it's going to happen because
00:43:58
somebody's going to do the right thing well and I want to tell the people out there listening I've here was my
00:44:04
takeaway from the book I've read just about everything I can get my hands on about this case I've watched listened to
00:44:11
just about everything that I could get my hands on about this case over the years I pick up your book and I as I
00:44:17
said earlier I was excited because of your position you being an officer of the court I knew that it was going to be
00:44:23
I was expecting a different a higher standard and you certainly delivered on that like your word I I can take you for
00:44:31
your word where these other opinion pieces I can't because I don't know who those people or are or their background
00:44:38
or how much time they've actually spent looking at the case so I was excited for
00:44:41
the book to come out and I one thing I do when I'm reading these true crime books just by the nature of my job by
00:44:48
hosting the show is I take notes and usually I'm only going to write down something if it's new information to me
00:44:58
or expanded information to me and your book I I have a note here to mention 97 notes I made wow uh from your book and
00:45:10
so and I this is what I I I want everybody to understand this book is for people that think that the West Memphis
00:45:19
3 are guilty this is for the people that think that they're innocent most importantly this is for the people that
00:45:26
sit on the fence that can't decide are they guilty are they innocent this is the this is the the eyeopener the way
00:45:35
that you delivered it and what you witnessed and the back door dealings and behindth scenes stuff that is explained
00:45:42
in your book Paradise Lost was an entertaining show right there's there's not a whole lot of concrete
00:45:51
information in those documentaries to really sway somebody one way or the other in my opinion it was a setting on
00:46:00
the fence narrative and it was but it was good and it was necessary and we we probably only ended up at this
00:46:07
result because of paradise L you and I wouldn't be having this conversation right now exact been for that well and
00:46:15
and you know what frankly I I didn't want to be rude earlier but uh judge Bernett would not have had to agree to
00:46:22
pay $40 an hour for you to investigate the case if West Memphis PD would have done a good job investigating the
00:46:29
case I want the listeners to know that a lot of the stuff that we're talking about here today is not you know we're
00:46:37
kind of jumping in and out of the book so don't walk away from this conversation thinking that you don't
00:46:43
need to this is an absolute must read so let me hit some things that are not in the book here if you allow me to D all
00:46:51
right one thing that you know and you you do touch on this a little bit but I want to get I want to get your manto man
00:46:58
answer here representing a teenager defendant certainly has to present its own unique set of challenges for a
00:47:05
defense attorney so what challenges did you have representing 17 year-old Jesse Melly the
00:47:14
best way to describe that is it's like not having a client at all no assistance from your client no he uh he didn't even
00:47:23
know what a lawyer was he thought we were cops he tried desperate to tell the the same story that he told the West
00:47:30
Memphis Police to us but he would get things so wrong and of course the confession itself is so ridiculous I
00:47:39
mean the the time that it happened uh and um they were tied up with a big brown rope and the boys skipped school
00:47:48
that day and so did Jason Baldwin none of that was even possible it didn't happen that way but the cops just keep
00:47:56
on going on on like you know nothing ever happened just you know so what he's telling us that things that are aren't
00:48:03
aren't true but um uh they acted like they didn't care and at one point mentally handicapped or not if you have
00:48:11
to ask a 17-year-old boy what a penis is that should be telling you that you're dealing with somebody who's
00:48:18
intellectually challenged they had to ask him if he knew how to tell time and then and that's another great um U
00:48:26
something that you know do not and and at no point do they go at no point do they go all right we have to ask this
00:48:34
guy does he know how to tell time oh wait maybe we should stop this interview because it's kind of pointless at this
00:48:40
point right if you have to ask a 17-year-old if they know how to tell time and imagine the frustration of
00:48:47
these officers uh who spent the the better part of 12 hours uh it wasn't the 12th hour that he
00:48:57
gave the first confession you know what this is one thing that intrigued me so I
00:49:02
I think Dan that I'm not going to lie to you I struggled with this case and yes there's so many obvious signs that
00:49:10
they're Innocent but there's also there are some gray areas and question marks and and and you will agree that it is
00:49:19
difficult for a lot of people to get over the fact that somebody may have offered up a false confession to
00:49:25
something so heinous and multiple false confessions to something so heinous it it it is hard for a lot of persons to
00:49:33
get over that and and I'm in that camp but one of the one of the things for me trying to play detective from a thousand
00:49:42
miles away was was that confession and when he mentioned noon the time of noon I believe and I I think it might have
00:49:50
been Mara leverett's book Devil's not where she's talking about she you know she's so in depth with the timeline of
00:49:57
everything and the movements of everybody on in early May and then in early June I think that it she says in
00:50:06
her book and you know Jesse Miss Kelly better than most so correct me if I'm wrong was he working his roofing job the
00:50:15
day that the boys were found he did but at noon he decided he didn't like it it wasn't any fun so he didn't go back
00:50:23
after lunch and he here has always been my thought my thought on Jesse's perception of everything I think that
00:50:32
when he was leaving the roofing job that day that he heard on the radio that the
00:50:39
boys had been found or saw the news shortly later at sometime later that day and I think that
00:50:49
he thought he was giving the police the correct answer because he I think he thinks that that's when they truly were
00:50:56
killed no he told it's in the officer's notes that he he told him at first he he
00:51:01
thinks Damian did it but but there actually the next day that the bodies were found right uh now in relationship
00:51:08
to the the confession was about a month later but but uh yeah me the you're right in in the confession everything's
00:51:19
so wrong the officers just acted like you know so what we got a confession and then I wish all these years one of the
00:51:28
things I wished I could have been there when it happened is when John fogman walked over to the police station in
00:51:37
West Memphis and either listened to the confession tape which was only like 29 minutes long I believe yep get back in
00:51:45
there and fix this this this couldn't have happened this way I'm just guessing that's what he said I don't but he sent
00:51:51
him back in and gel walks back in the interrogation room and he says now Jess you told me earlier this happened at 5
00:52:00
or 6 is it 5 or 6 or 7 or 8 and of course what does someone who has Mr what do they say they say what their
00:52:08
interrogator wants them to say and he said seven or eight so when you can hear the gasp in in gel's voice like finally
00:52:19
okay that and I think he actually said on the transcript well that clears that up then and then it's pretty much over I
00:52:25
think it was 12 12 minutes and not not that it it excuses any of that poor police work but do you think as somebody
00:52:36
who's met these individuals had conversations with these individuals do you think that that any of their actions
00:52:43
were they done out of desperation or do you think they really thought deep down that they were doing the right thing
00:52:49
that is a very good question and I did address that briefly probably one or two sentences in the book and I
00:52:58
said essentially I can't quote exactly what I said um but I I said you know the satanic Panic was very real and palpable
00:53:09
and I can give you a couple examples here in a moment but and in the in the book I said you know once it became
00:53:18
apparent and obvious and clear that these kids were innocent they could have just said hey we screwed up uh we're
00:53:27
going to let you out of jail we're going to have a new trial we're going to do something to fix this but what do they
00:53:33
do they dig in deeper even if they were Spellbound that's a bad metaphor for a Witch Hunt right right
00:53:42
but uh it even if they thought in their heart of hearts as fogman once told me we got I think we got the right guys and
00:53:50
even if they believe that once the wheels fell off the wagon they they didn't give up they just kept digging in
00:53:58
deeper because they didn't want egg on their face and that's where it turns from you know uh I'm sorry I made a
00:54:06
mistake to damn I got to make sure this doesn't come out and that's why I wrote the book because I was not going to let
00:54:13
this this true story and let let um the documentaries or Burnett's version or uh
00:54:21
Brent Davis's version be the final version because um and I think I quote Churchill in the book I Churchill said
00:54:30
that history will be kind to him because he intends to write it and so I kind of
00:54:35
took that to heart you know somebody wants to write a book and claim I'm mentally ill or whatever that's their
00:54:43
prerogative I but I had to tell the truth and I had to do it in such a way that it didn't pose a risk uh to my
00:54:50
clients or the other two well and you getting the phone call to represent Jesse Miss Kelly one thing that people
00:54:58
need to truly understand here is you didn't have to take that case you had and not only did you not have to take
00:55:06
that case you could have said no you had other irons in the fire at the time you
00:55:11
were busy practicing law and getting your career going and and I mean you were busy with other things and I'm sure
00:55:19
that yes you know the young man the fighter and you wanted to take the case but I'm going to ask you for a second
00:55:25
you know we talked about the challenges the unique challenges of representing somebody like 17-year-old
00:55:33
Jesse mkelly what would be your perceived a from from someone who's worked as a defense attorney for so many
00:55:41
years what would be your perceived challenges when it would come to representing somebody like Damen Eckles
00:55:48
wow um you know of course Damian did go through a metamorphosis of uh being someone
00:55:57
who naively believed that he couldn't be convicted because he was innocent and flipping off the TV cameras and the
00:56:04
victim's parents and news media the local media uh would not show on television the parents calling Damian
00:56:14
names and and spurring him on and then he would just react by flipping the bird or uh saying something stupid that was
00:56:24
news that's how they created news um Damian had no idea no concept that that was going to affect his trial and his
00:56:33
lawyers probably had about the same success keeping him under control as I did Jesse mkelly Senor who just
00:56:41
continued to screw up our case um and uh of course this will blow your mind and probably everyone else who's listening
00:56:51
but at first I thought he was guilty it took me 90 days into the case for me to realize oh [ __ ] uh this there's
00:57:00
something wrong here bad wrong and then we switch from you know how are we going
00:57:05
to get this kid to testify against the other two to how are we're going to defend an innocent client and there's
00:57:11
nothing worse for a defense lawyer than to have an innocent client so U that's the problem with being a criminal
00:57:18
defense lawyer is you cannot control the narrative and and echles it it certainly
00:57:25
to me and I've met personalities similar I believe in my my life of the defiant till the end types he certainly like you
00:57:34
said and and this is one thing that I struggled with in this case was some of the his statements that he made was like
00:57:41
my God man don't you realize you're on trial here and and you're saying you're saying that you're you you're fine with
00:57:50
people in West Memphis thinking you're the Boogeyman and like you said flipping the bird and but but it's it it's very
00:57:58
much like another very famous trial where on the news all we got to see was Michael Jackson Standing On Top of the
00:58:06
car on top of the limousine and everybody cheering him on what we didn't hear or see was the persons in court his
00:58:14
accusers in saying what they're accusing him of you know you only got to see that
00:58:19
those those moments in and in like the things that eeko was saying and doing in the spotlight and in front of the
00:58:28
cameras they weren't showing what happened what happened 10 seconds prior or what went down 10 seconds after you
00:58:37
only got to see the bad guy there's your bad guy he's on camera and this is a guy
00:58:43
that we're going to convict now I I would guess and I think you'll agree with me that out of the three Jason
00:58:50
Baldwin would probably have been the easiest to represent as I think he would be more of the type of you could tell
00:58:58
him how to act and behave and he would probably fall in line with that no he did exactly what his lawyers told him to
00:59:06
do and and it's really a shame that he I always thought it was was terrible that
00:59:12
that he had to sit through because really it was the trial of Damen Eckles and the but the two of them are sitting
00:59:18
there together at the table and it's kind of like well if they convict Eckles you're going too buddy and this is I
00:59:25
guess another this phrase is overused but it's oxymoronic for Jason's lawyers and their
00:59:34
efforts to get a separate trial neutered themselves and wouldn't say the magic words we have antagonistic defenses and
00:59:43
at one point during a pre-trial hearing this is not in the book but I actually elbowed one of them in the ribs and said
00:59:50
for God's sake say it MH why do you want to be tried with echles and of course there was no response and so then they
00:59:58
had the audacity to argue in closing that Jason's only here because it's guilt by association you wouldn't have
01:00:06
that problem if You' have had your own trial especially if you could have got your trial scheduled before Eckles and
01:00:12
then as I understand it they had just watched my trial 3 weeks earlier and they couldn't have helped but notice
01:00:20
that I put in lesser included offenses in the jury in instructions and wanted judge brunette to put it all give me an
01:00:28
instruction on manslaughter which he wouldn't do but I got him down to second degree murder and the jury convicted him
01:00:36
on two counts of second degree murder and they just watched me do that and they they went all or nothing and on
01:00:43
capital murder and of course for the jury to find Jason guilty which they had to do because a satanic Panic he got
01:00:52
life without parole so they def they wouldn't give him a separate trial when all they had to do was say the magic
01:00:59
words then they said he shouldn't be held Guilty By Association but they put him in the same room with Damian uh in
01:01:06
his Antics um which he's now very repetive of I just find it crazy that that that's the way they did it it is
01:01:17
what it is it's not the way I would have done it and they just seen me do it with
01:01:21
some success I mean I he did not get convicted my client even though he he was the one who confessed if you want to
01:01:28
call it a confession but um I call it nonsense but uh you want to believe that it's a confession how come he didn't get
01:01:36
convicted of capital murder so if you give the jury options then that gives you options and it
01:01:43
spared my client from the death penalty West Memphis West Memphis Damen Eckles and Jason Baldwin Jesse
01:02:00
Miss Kelly West Memphis [Music] 3 they were just 8 years old Steven Branch Michael Moore and Christopher
01:02:10
buers found murdered hog hied and naked in a drainage dit in West Memphis West Memphis
01:02:17
[Music] 3 the state stands behind the [Music] conviction West Memphis 3 West Memphis 3
01:02:57
West Memphis 3 explore today's must have Trends in Innovative Styles at Mrs B's clearance
01:03:05
and outlet shop one-of-a-kind finds in today's musthave Trends explore wall to--all deals Furniture flooring
01:03:12
mattresses Home Accents seasonal favorites and more discover unique new home decor pillows accessories and more
01:03:19
there's something perfect for your style and budget there's new inventory every day at up to 80% off suggested
01:03:26
discover the style and savings of Mrs be's clearance and Outlet