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[Music] thank you [Music] [Music] thank you welcome to True Crime garage wherever
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you are whatever you are doing thanks for listening I'm your host Nick and with me as always is a man who was right
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the first time when he was wrong the last time ladies and gentlemen the captain well If Loving You Is Wrong I
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Don't Want to Be Right it's good to be seen and good to see you thanks for listening thanks for telling a friend
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[Music] today we are still sipping on this blood orange blonde Brew called Hunter's
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Harvest from second Crossing Brew Company if you like a beer that is bitter and sweet with some good blood orange and
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hints of orange peel this is for you ABV 4.7 and a beautiful color to this beer as well garage grade 4 and a quarter
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bottle caps out of five and let's give some thanks and praise to our good friends for helping us out with this
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week's show a big wheel I could jib to Allison and Liverpool England and last but certainly not least we have Julie de
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Colonel that's enough of the beers and yes all right everybody gather around grab a chair grab a beer let's talk some
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true crime [Music] it's been over 30 years since 18 year old Denise flum disappeared from
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Connersville Indiana in 1986. she went out to retrieve her purse that she lost the night before at a party and she
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never came home her vehicle was found the following day and we as we pointed out in episode one are missing a lot of
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important statements one in particular is the property owner of where the party was the night before I'm curious as to
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why we've never heard and my guess is maybe the individual or individuals was never questioned but I'm curious as to
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why we've never heard one simple thing in this case ask that person who threw the party or the persons that threw the
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party did you see Denise on the day that she went missing she left her home to retrieve her purse what we don't know
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after they find her car the following day four miles away from where the party was hosted did she go missing before she
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arrived to look for her purse did she go missing at the location where she was looking for that purse or did she fail
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to find it and go missing and something happened to her on her way home well like we said there was over a hundred
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people at this party a step that law enforcement could have took early on in this investigation is come that Monday
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go to the high school and start questioning a lot of individuals and I think they would have
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gathered a lot of information just a couple days after she went missing because there were not notes and
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documents that were kept during the early stages of this investigation it gets very hard to determine who was
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spoken to and who and what statements they gave at that time we have some suspects here to discuss even though we
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have a big lack of evidence the suspects here are both local and one of interest that is from out of town but
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one of the things that seems Paramount in this case or at least has remained so throughout the three decades
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that Denise has been missing is the local rumors the local rumors and the short of it is these guys or some guys
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got away with it they did something to Denise flum and they got away with it now it's hard to say exactly who these
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guys are from top to bottom the list could be longer than what we're going to present
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here but we have a short list of some very good suspects at least circumstantial
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suspects one we talked about in episode one his name is Sean McClung Sean McClung is
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Denise flum's previous boyfriend they broke up in early March Denise goes missing in late March another person of
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interest is Benny Johnson Benny Johnson graduated a couple years before Denise and it's my understanding
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Captain stop me if I'm wrong but really pinpointing the location of that party and who the landowner was or is of that
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party right was a little difficult but everything I reviewed I keep getting the sense that the property belonged to the
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Johnson family so Benny Johnson graduates a couple years before Denise he's known to all the locals all the
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teenagers and everybody in their early 20s at the time his father the Johnson family goes way back they're Farmers
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they own a lot of properties in the area and they own a lot of properties that surround Connersville Indiana yeah so
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the property would have been owned by Benny's father Ben Johnson another person of interest is Benny Johnson's
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cousin who it appears that they were rather close and were regularly together yeah I don't think locals view him as a
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suspect on his own but believe that Randy was involved because of Benny so his name is Randy Cates and again he is
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Benny's cousin then our third suspect is a man named Larry Hall now long time listeners of this show May
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recognize that name and people that watch the Apple TV show Blackbird will most certainly know that name Larry Hall
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is a suspected serial killer from Wabash Indiana who trolled around the Midwest in the
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Civil War reenactments he is Accused again a suspected serial killer never have has
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been convicted of murdering anyone but he is serving life in prison based on kidnapping charges yes and they've had
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law enforcement agents that have studied Larry's movements and studied the cases
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that they believe that Larry possibly could be connected to and the numbers reach up into the 50s
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which would make him one of the most prolific serial killers and Captain you said something to me that's very
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interesting when we took our little break here everything I say is interesting well this one went to the
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top of the list for today anyway okay good that this I cannot think of another case you said you said to me that here
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we have this case where we have three suspects now keep in mind it could also be
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somebody we have we don't know that's not named that we did not name but here we have three suspects
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there's not evidence to suggest one is a better suspect than the others and we all three
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of them at some point and then or some form has confessed to killing Denise flum three really good suspects that you
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could make an argument somebody could bring an argument to the table and I'd go well that's a good argument but three
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good suspects all have confessed in some form or fashion two of them have confessed to law enforcement and then we
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have confessions from Benny Johnson and or Randy Cates to people that are outside
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of law enforcement these would be people that know these two individuals and they
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are often referred to as drunken confessions so again we have Sean McClung the ex-boyfriend he confesses to
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law enforcement we then have Benny Johnson that has the drunken confessions his cousin Randy has drunken confessions
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not that he's the murderer but that he had some involvement and then we have a confession by Mr Hall
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a suspected serial killer let's start with Sean McClung the former boyfriend now I shared a similar opinion with Ted
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mcquinley that maybe he's easy to move on from again you want to check his Alibis and confirm his Alibis before you
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move on from him but there's a lot to suggest that it may have been a mutual breakup that Sean is out living his best
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life separately from his ex-girlfriend Denise but it's not it doesn't appear until years later that
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people become more suspicious of Sean and probably rightfully so so people were concerned that he wasn't
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looked at very good in the early stages of the investigation and then he moves away to Arizona I was trying to get an
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exact date or at least a week narrow it down to a week of when he moved because depending on what reports you review it
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says later that year he moved to Arizona well if later that year means she goes missing in March and he didn't move till
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November that makes some sense but if it was within a a couple days or a week of her
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going missing that would be very suspicious to me considering that he's a senior in high
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school at that time and he still has his pending graduation coming up later that year my guess here
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is Captain is that he went and moved to Arizona after graduating high school that year the reason why this becomes
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important one obviously it looks like he might be running and hiding from something that he did back in
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Connersville Indiana but two while he is in Arizona well he's not a saint he breaks the law and in
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fact he ends up getting charged with what is reported as racking up some domestic violence arrest yeah so what
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law enforcement is not obviously privy to is how these individuals will turn out so when you have new detectives
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looking at this case 30 some years later you go well Sean moved away so that's suspicious that's a red flag
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and he is abusive towards women so that's a red flag so then we got to go back and say okay well he had this Alibi
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and when new detectives look at this case they're not able to confirm that alibi
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and then on top of that Sean is saying well look we were friends and was a mutual breakup
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but then when you find out well Denise wasn't faithful so I don't know how how much that seems like a mutual
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breakup and there'd be some reason that Sean would be upset with her and rightfully so I mean they had a
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relationship and she was unfaithful but you could see why he would be upset with
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her so what he was telling law enforcement is oh we were friends and and everything was fine that's not the
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correct story and then on top of that you got another red flag because she's sending letters at the time
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saying hey I I made a mistake and I'm I'm fearful we know this guy is abusive towards women so it's very possible in
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this three-year relationship he had with Denise that possibly was he was possibly
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abusive towards her as well I'll say some things in defense of Sean McClung here before we get into some other
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things that might be Point more towards his guilt in his defense he doesn't stay gone from
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Connersville Indiana forever he eventually moves back and in fact I found some reports to indicate that he
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may have bounced between the two locations more than what's generally reported a lot of the reports make it
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sound like he went out to Arizona State gone for a couple decades and then came back
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the one report I found indicates that he had residents from time to time in Indiana and from time to time in Arizona
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so he seems to have bounced back and forth a little more frequently so if he was running from something and
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I'm not saying that he wasn't but if he was running and attempting to hide from something he didn't stay gone forever he
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kept coming back to Connersville yeah and also in Sean's defense he keeps coming back to Connersville and there's
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really no local rumors that Sean confessed to anybody and the other thing too while there might be local suspicion
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like the captain said he doesn't seem to have confessed to anybody he also doesn't return to Connersville because
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they've named other suspects or they've had other Persons of Interest publicly or or hot on a lead of somebody right
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like the if he left Connersville with any stank on him then there's nothing to have removed that before he decides to
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return now something that goes against Sean McClung however not something that you could use
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in the court of law when questioned by police once he's back in Connersville Indiana he does fail
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according to their report that he does fail a voice stress test again this is years later yeah they
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bring him in for questioning in 2018. now again in his defense he's been Cooperative with law
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enforcement correct and he fails this stress test and again according to to the report the things that really stand
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out or the things that they want us to know that stand out to them is they believe the questions the important
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questions that he failed on were do you know what happened to Denise flopp did you kill Denise flop
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that's where they're saying that their test indicates to them their interpretation of the results of
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that test is that he was not truthful on those answers yeah I don't know how these tests actually
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operate or what the test indicates in the documentary it makes it seem like uh a wavering in their voice
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but a lot of people could have a wavering in their voice if you're asking somebody Point directly did you murder
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your ex-girlfriend one thing that I thought was rather off-putting and this was something that the documentary did a
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really good job of is when the documentarians would go out to interview somebody or attempt to interview them
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for the first time they're walking up to them and it's a surprise to the person that
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they're going to interview right and they did a great job of having the camera person hang back hang back a
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little bit so this person may not know that we're going to be recording that we will at
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least get to hear their answers when they are first engaged by the documentarians now Sean McClung
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answer some of their questions he seems to be he's weird because he seems standoffish in the beginning and
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then he seems eager to try to tell them some of the story or at least the portion of the story that he knows which
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according to his words is he doesn't know what happened to Denise he doesn't really know what was going on with her
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leading up to her disappearance and I believe he even says that when she first turned up missing
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he thought that maybe she just took off or went off with some friends he says we
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weren't hanging out with the same people at the same time we weren't hanging out with the same
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people at that time and the weeks leading up to her disappearance he didn't really know what she was doing or
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what she was up to because they had parted ways and really truly did go their own separate ways
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one thing though that I thought was a little weird when he was being standoffish with the documentarians
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he said you know and this could be simply out of frustration or this could be out of
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guilt or he's trying to hide something he says it's been 32 years I wish people would just let it die
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now I've never been questioned or suspected of anything or local rumor or people coming up to me asking me about a
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missing persons case that they think I may have been involved in so I don't know what that's
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like I cannot say what kind of reaction I would have maybe he's just frustrated with the
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whole situation why do you keep talking to me I had nothing to do with this why do people keep coming up and talking to
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me about this I had nothing to do with it or maybe he's trying to hide something and he's uncomfortable by the
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questioning probably a little frustrated that they didn't get the answers 30 years ago because if they would have
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done their work and done their due diligence 30 years ago they could have possibly cleared him
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and then he would never been brought up again the person that has really kept this case alive is detective Stacy Reese
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and you see look she's amazing when you watch the documentary you're gonna go if
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it wasn't for her we want to be talking about this case you know what there would be no movement
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on this case if it wasn't for the Stacy Reese well Stacy Reese and and like we said the the two documentarians
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I'd be honored to work with any of those individuals they were just amazing and I can't
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applaud their effort enough but then what ends up happening here with Sean is Sean gets sick and he is arrested on
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I believe fraud charges Denise's mother Judy writes a letter to Sean and basically says look your mom
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was a good person Denise loved your mom your mom's probably in heaven you probably want to join her in heaven so
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just tell us where our daughter is we we believe in law enforcement at this time believes
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you're it and they do something that's very surprising like we said he has these fraud charges
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he then would be charged obviously with murder and he is sick he is dying and so the family makes
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a deal look if you can just give us the location of where Denise's body is and we can find the body we're going to let
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you out of prison you're going to get off on the fraud charges we're not even going to charge you with murder so he
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makes this deal with police and starts talking to police even before his lawyer gets there and this is a last
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ditch Hail Mary effort by Judy flum and her family to say look we we don't at this point all these years later we
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don't really care exactly what happened we are not so concerned about murder charges against you
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we just want to bring our daughter home we want to know where she is and have some answers as to what happened and as
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the captain said he comes in and he he he's in his jail uniform and he's in the room with the sheriff and he's starting
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to confess his confession is that she contacts him to have him go with her to retrieve the purse
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yeah this would make some sense with with her activities that we know the the things that she was doing that day he
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says that they stopped off at this bridge she falls hits her head he Stomps off in in aggravation and
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frustration and when he returns she's not moving his push then caused her death according
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to this statement right he then says that he contacted a couple of friends these names it's not clear whether he
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disclosed these names to law enforcement or purposely left those names out of his
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confession I believe he told them and but law enforcement has left that information out of Public's eyes and
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then he says that the friends were contacted so they could help him with this situation help him dispose of
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Denise there's a lot of problems with his story though because he's he's very vague
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his story is kind of wonky donkey I mean he goes out there with her but it's not clear on
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how he got to a place or where he went to to contact individuals to come help him
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and so his immunity is based off of two things that one he confesses and says what
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happened which he was able to give him Sheriff looks at him in the eye and says look me in the eye and tell me
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that you're the killer because there could be the real killer out there still and he says no I I killed her so then
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the next thing that he has to give law enforcement is where are her remains and he goes out with them on the first
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occasion to one of the Johnson family's properties and the sheriff's department says look
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he he did seem confused as soon as we arrived there now mind you 30 some years have passed and the location may look
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quite different than the last time he was there he also gives some indication too that
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it may have been dark during some of the periods of the activities that he's confessing to again
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what's crazy though is he is so vague in at least the statements that have been released to the public
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but he's also very emotional right like doesn't his emotion almost it almost sealed it for me until then later we
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learned he can't lead them to Denise's body and not only can he not lead them there
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but he seems very confused almost like he's like well I'm going yeah it's around here but he's almost like looking
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for law enforcement to point him in the right direction and they're not able to do that and they're also kind of
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instructed not to have a bunch of communication with him because that they don't want to interfere with
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the information that he's giving right they don't want it to appear like they're recording him when he's out on
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these let's call them field trips looking for Denise they go to multiple properties on different occasions
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looking for her he sounds clueless to me like he's like like you said hoping that law
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enforcement will Point him in the right direction so he can deliver on his end of the deal and they don't want it to
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later look like this was an extended interrogation or interview of this man they want it to be clear that we were
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rolling tape we were just letting him talk we just needed to hear his thoughts he is supposed to be directing us to
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where she is he's not able to do so on multiple occasions now think about this he has all these reasons to confess
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and all these reasons to try to find where her remains would be he's going to get off on fraud charges he's going to
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get away with murder he's going to be set free yes he's towards the end of his life he's withering away
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but he's also going to receive 25 000 that he can pass on to his kids because he confessed he has all these
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reasons to confess that benefit him so I don't look at this guy is like oh well he he just you know had a change of
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heart and he just wants to give people the answer he's doing this for so many selfish reasons and and then the reason
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why I don't believe him is because he's not able to give them the information that would set him free
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he wants to be set free he wants to not have these charges against him he wants this money to give to his family and
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he's not able to provide the information what ends up happening here is a very weird sequence of events he confesses to
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the murder he tells him he can lead them to her body he fails to do so he fails to give great details of the
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murder itself he therefore does not deliver on his end of the deal so law enforcement says we ain't going to give
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you what we promised you either and in fact we're not going to give you immunity in fact we're not going to give
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you the two twenty five thousand dollars in fact we're not going to let you out of jail on these other charges what
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we're going to do instead is charge you with involuntary manslaughter because now we have your confession
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we just don't have a whole lot of evidence to back it up they're hoping that this confession that he made on
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tape which is completely you know he he's not he's not being physically or verbally pressured at the
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time of giving this confession the only pressure on him is to make this deal and they say we're going to charge you
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with involuntary manslaughter and they go out and arrest him later this it takes some time between these events to
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to take place well he's still in prison on the fraud charges but and they arrest
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him for uh involuntary manslaughter now before he could be taken to court on these charges he passes away as the
00:27:55
captain pointed out Sean McClung was was Ill at the time and I'll read some brief
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statements from from a very good article on the matter that says on September 26
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2020 Sean McClung age 56 of Connersville Indiana died from complications with an
00:28:12
undisclosed illness on July 9 2020 the Fayette County prosecuting attorney's office charged Sean with voluntary
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manslaughter as a class B felony after he allegedly confessed to killing Denise flum more than 30 years ago mcclung's
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alleged confession has made many headlines but the full circumstances and motivations surrounding the
00:28:37
quote confession have not been disclosed now as the captain pointed out Sean McClung a dying man he was in jail on
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two pending cases unrelated to Denise's disappearance he was unable to post bail
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his attorney comes forward and says look my client told me in his dying days I did not kill Denise I only said that I
00:29:04
did that because I was hoping to not spend my last few days on this Earth in jail
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and I was hoping to give my children the 25 000 reward that they were offering me I
00:29:16
was hoping to leave something to my kids and his attorney says he was devastated
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when they turned around and charged him with it I happen to believe and Captain correct me if you think I'm
00:29:28
wrong here but I think Sean may have thought that someone in law enforcement knew more
00:29:36
about the case than he did yeah definitely and what parts he couldn't confess to
00:29:41
they would fill in some of the blanks and maybe together using local rumor and what the police knew maybe they could
00:29:49
stumble upon a body or maybe they would take that portion off of the table if they just got him to confess
00:29:56
right in some jurisdictions in front of some officers it's good enough to just close out the case not actually solve it
00:30:04
so where we were really coming down hard on them yesterday for the lack of effort in this
00:30:11
investigation we should point out that they had the easy way out here and they didn't take it now you could
00:30:20
argue well they were going to charge him with that voluntary manslaughter charge
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so maybe maybe his death is what simply removed that from the equation well there's still
00:30:32
people in law enforcement that believe Sean is responsible for The Disappearance and murder
00:30:38
of Denise but there's two things that are really important in this case who did it
00:30:45
and how do we find her remains and Sean wasn't able to provide those two important pieces of information
00:30:56
[Music] [Music] all right we are back and cheers mates again what uh this case really blew my
00:31:33
mind normally when it's a 30 some year old case I go well what can we learn from this are we going to have any
00:31:40
movement on this case but we have three really good suspects with three confessions
00:31:48
let's get into suspect number two yeah this is Benny Johnson and we've spoke about him a little bit before he
00:31:55
graduated a couple years before Denise and it's our belief that it was one of the Johnson's properties
00:32:01
that was hosting the party the night before Benny Johnson has been it's been rumored and it's been stated on camera
00:32:09
and stated in written reports that he has admitted to multiple people not law enforcement but to multiple
00:32:19
persons that he killed Denise flum now the problem with these statements is that he's given multiple different
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stories as to all aspects of the crime how she died how he disposed of her body though how she died
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has changed in different stories where the body is or how he disposes of the body has has changed in different
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stories what led up to the murder has changed in different stories he's a guy that it's really difficult to
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pin down what his actual statements would be and part of that is he lawyers up once the
00:33:00
heat gets turned on Benny Johnson he gets an attorney now I'm not in law enforcement so I'm
00:33:06
not going to pretend to know what the best strategy is at this time given the state of the case and him as a potential
00:33:13
suspect but it looks like as soon as he lawyers up the the sheriff's department takes on
00:33:20
a very hands-off approach with this individual yeah they don't call him in with it and this is again a huge giant
00:33:28
pile of horseshit you have this individual he he is a piece of [ __ ] individual he has some issues his family
00:33:37
owns that property and properties around where her car was found and you don't bring them into
00:33:44
questioning now his lawyer when they talk to the lawyer he the lawyer says well yeah you can bring my client in and
00:33:49
we probably won't answer any questions but we'll make a statement well you don't know what that statement's going
00:33:55
to be so you call him in and you record that statement and they never did that and that's again just it's just lazy
00:34:03
horseshit investigation so on March 27th that's the day of the bonfire right so there is a a party that night bonfire
00:34:15
party but there's also a party that Benny has with a bunch of his friends at his mother's cabin
00:34:22
so it's very unclear on how big this party was but the following day they're going to have a bigger party and because
00:34:28
they're at this cabin they need to clean it up a little bit and they've when they go to clean up this party his
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girlfriend sees blood on a sheet discover some blood yes in the cabin a lot of blood actually and her their
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reasoning for this blood is that somebody was having sex and it was their first time and so they bled but she
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thought initially well this seems like a lot more blood than the reason they're giving keep in
00:35:02
mind too at this time the the local thought the general consensus if you will was that Denise was missing
00:35:12
voluntarily that she may return there was still a lot of people that believed in the first
00:35:19
day or two that she had just gone off with someone or was out partying or or doing stuff that that of course she was
00:35:26
not that type according to her parents but that was the local belief by a lot of people so while this may cause some
00:35:35
red flags it doesn't seem to send them all the way up the flagpole but I believe the girlfriend says that she
00:35:43
did report this incident to somebody at law enforcement yeah after a little bit of
00:35:48
time went by and it started becoming more clear that Denise didn't just walk away from her life that there was
00:35:56
probably some foul play she did contact law enforcement but again law enforcement just didn't follow up on
00:36:03
certain things they could have went out to the property they could have got maybe a search warrant they could have
00:36:09
got a search warrant for the property of the party they just didn't do things that you should do well and the Johnsons
00:36:15
have a lot of land and they have different properties multiple properties and a lot of these properties are large
00:36:21
you know they have several Acres if not dozens of Acres right and one thing that's troubling here too
00:36:29
regarding the ex-girlfriend for Benny Johnson is she says it about two months after Denise
00:36:35
went missing Benny's telling her that hey after school I've got something to show you so after school she goes and
00:36:42
meets up with Benny he wants to take her out into the woods on one of their properties one of the Johnson properties
00:36:48
and the girlfriend says at some point she backs out she got nervous she didn't feel comfortable going into the woods
00:36:56
she's she says even to this day she's a little unclear why she didn't feel comfortable and she's
00:37:03
asked direct questions was it because you didn't trust Benny was it because you were afraid of Benny and she says
00:37:08
you know I I've thought about this a long time it might simply just be I was afraid of what he was going to show me
00:37:14
yeah so here we go so Benny the big red flags to me is that the Johnson family his family owns this property
00:37:26
owns where her remains could be at owns this cabin that we find blood in his girlfriend
00:37:34
Benny's girlfriend at the time starts suspecting him he takes her out to this pond
00:37:40
she never sees what he's trying to show her but then again all the local rumors that
00:37:48
Benny confesses I think the thing that plays in his favor is like you said his confessions seem to contradict
00:37:57
themselves or the details don't line up but then on top of that they're actually
00:38:02
able to question his cousin which was at the party the night before and then the
00:38:08
night afterwards and he says well and then there's local rumors that Randy has confessed to
00:38:15
involvement and one of the statements is that Denise went out to get her purse and
00:38:22
Benny and Randy um were out there so they take her back to a place that they were drinking and
00:38:29
they were partying now this could have been the cabin I'm not for sure once Denise sees these drugs she starts
00:38:36
freaking out and somebody it's not clear based off of this local person this local person came forward and said this
00:38:44
is the confession that Randy gave him right says somebody punched her and that's where it all started okay now we
00:38:51
punched her and now this situation has got a out of hand so they end up beating her
00:38:58
basically to death and then feeding her to the pigs and that there was screams and she was screaming and basically that
00:39:10
Randy is haunted by these screams Randy says on camera in the documentary that he never claimed to have any involvement
00:39:20
and doesn't recall ever making those types of statements to anyone again the people that are saying this are saying
00:39:28
that he was heavily intoxicated when he's made these statements these are referred to as drunken confessions and
00:39:35
he even states that he was in Michigan at the time again it's all these years later it's hard to verify these things
00:39:42
but look what what we do know and I I hate to cut you off but this just pisses me off so bad what we do
00:39:49
know is that these scumbags these rumors it's not like these are rumors that happen 20
00:39:56
years later this this is stuff that P there's rumors happening and people talking about Benny and possibly his
00:40:04
cousin early on in the investigation and I wonder if originally if mcquinley was
00:40:11
looking so hard at Benny and his cousin Randy Cates that he just failed to see the obvious uh of a potential person of
00:40:21
interest in Sean McClung but if you're not a piece of [ __ ] detective then and you'd take notes and you did your due
00:40:28
diligence you'd you'd know and have confirmed or denied The Alibi for Sean and then you would have been able to
00:40:35
confirm or deny The Alibi for Randy and a couple statements that I keep going back to here is one from the family they
00:40:42
say the pain never goes away they're absolutely right 100 and I hope at some point they can locate Denise so they can
00:40:51
have some answers some form of healing can start for them the pain never goes away but what did Sean McClung say when
00:41:01
he was uncomfortable and the questions were brought to him 30 some years later he says it's been 32 years I wish people
00:41:10
would just let it die what's weird is in some in some way that's not so obvious to us because it's not
00:41:19
reported and not not been public information in Sean mcclung's confession that he gave to law enforcement he must
00:41:26
have implicated Benny Johnson in some form or fashion because that's where they go looking for Denise's body
00:41:34
and we can't say 100 that he did implicate Benny Johnson but one thing that I found
00:41:41
weird was when the documentarians go to interview Benny Johnson he says something similar he says it's been all
00:41:48
these years I just wish people would forget about it I wish people would just let it go yeah
00:41:55
and what what a weird thing to have similar statements now he lawyers up and it does not seem that
00:42:04
police are going to jump the hurdle of that lawyer of that attorney of that representation and ask
00:42:14
bring Benny in and ask him the hard facts well no and look ask him the hard questions the creators
00:42:22
of the vice documentary and I would State their names but they're difficult names to say
00:42:27
and detective Stacy Reese they're the only ones that have ever really talked to Benny to this day law enforcement
00:42:35
hasn't brought them in you know this is way in on their family because the family has been asked
00:42:42
multiple times to give us permission give law enforcement permission to do searches brain and cadaver dogs and
00:42:50
they've been denied over and over and over so okay so on one hand law enforcement's not questioning Benny but
00:42:58
the other on the other hand they are asking to search properties and they're being denied well actually
00:43:04
I should take that back I don't know how much law enforcement is actually pushing
00:43:08
for these searches but the family the plum family has been plum the plum the flum family
00:43:18
has been pushing for these searches so and and here's where it gets uh interesting as well because we talk
00:43:27
about those screens so you have that one confession where they feed her to the pigs and these screams well
00:43:35
we do have a witness from 30 years ago Vivian May so Vivian tells her kids when they come home she
00:43:45
seems rattled that she heard some screams three or four screens three or four screams loud guttural very uh horrific
00:43:59
haunting yeah to the point where she screams she feels to the point where they know that she
00:44:05
feels uncomfortable even just talking about what she heard so they go out and look
00:44:13
at this property ask their mom where did the Screams Come From she pointed since she goes look I I
00:44:19
know because these were guttural horrific screams points to this plot of land and who is the land owned by
00:44:28
Benny Johnson Ben Johnson Senior it's it's Johnson family property yeah the property was owned by pin
00:44:36
Johnson Benny's dad and on this property there was a pond so they call law enforcement but guess
00:44:47
what law enforcement doesn't follow up just like with the freaking alibis just like with the questioning
00:44:56
I I'm look I'm still pissed off and I understand that you have suspects in this case but again why didn't you talk
00:45:04
to more people that possibly were at this party why didn't you go to the high school and start rounding people up and
00:45:10
just getting statements at least we'd have a lot of information to go off of but you don't even follow
00:45:19
up on this Vivian maze story now again the screams were coming from Ben Johnson's property it's
00:45:29
absolutely ridiculous and then for whatever reason one of these ponds were later filled in
00:45:36
which I find to be pretty suspicious and this this look and I know this Ben Johnson is dead but
00:45:44
this guy is a real son of a [ __ ] because you have a 18 year old woman that disappeared
00:45:53
is most likely was murdered and their remains were most likely disposed of on your property and it's possible that
00:46:04
your son is involved and he has stood in the way of law enforcement or the family to bring in
00:46:12
law enforcement to search any of his properties and he's passed away now but he kept on
00:46:19
saying well yeah I I was fine with them searching but we couldn't get together on the details
00:46:27
and I understand that maybe you don't want them coming in and just digging up your property
00:46:35
but grass is going to grow back I it just it just baffles me to me with all these local rumors and people saying
00:46:45
that your son has confessed to them it's almost like he's protecting his son maybe he is afraid of what they'd find
00:46:52
and they were able to talk to Benny's mom and she says he has issues and he never does the right thing right
00:47:01
so I mean it's just well but it's like your husband's not doing the right thing either let them search the damn property
00:47:07
because if you search the property and you find nothing fine well and as far as Benny's confessions or drunken
00:47:14
confessions go that gets a little difficult too to to discern just how incriminating that
00:47:21
actually is given that he's given different statements different stories at different times but then also the
00:47:27
general consensus among among around town is that many don't just have one screw loose he got a whole bunch of
00:47:34
screws loose yeah and so it's hard to believe in anything that he says and then you want
00:47:40
to talk about hard to believe in anything that someone says you have to talk about Larry Hall
00:47:46
Larry Dwayne Hall as we pointed out earlier is a suspected serial killer he's a giant [ __ ] stain that's what he
00:47:54
is and he suspected of kidnapping raping and killing girls and women in multiple
00:48:00
Midwestern states thankfully he is currently locked up in North Carolina and he does not seem like he's ever
00:48:09
going to get out uh he's locked up on federal charges because they found a murdered victim
00:48:18
that they could prove that he kidnapped her and transported her across state lines right therefore making it a
00:48:26
federal crime however they were reserved to charging him with kidnapping because
00:48:32
they simply didn't have the evidence they believed at the time to get the murder conviction
00:48:39
they've made great efforts to make sure that Larry Hall never gets out because if you were to believe Larry Hall or at
00:48:47
least Larry Hall's a man that changes his story frequently if you are to believe some of his
00:48:53
stories then he may have killed he may have abducted and killed 30 40 women and girls and the reason why he falls
00:49:04
into suspicion here is one he was active at this time kidnapping females he lived in Wabash Indiana so he's about
00:49:14
two and a half hours from Connersville Indiana and some say well that's that's a little far that might be
00:49:23
a bit of a stretch but a lot of the crimes he suspected of happened in other states in fact the crime that he's
00:49:31
convicted of the kidnapping charge that he's convicted of happened over two and a half hours driving distance from where
00:49:39
he lives so the distance alone does not put it out of the realm of possibility that he could be the perpetrator of this
00:49:47
and then furthermore and I was trying to me this was very important to nail down
00:49:53
a date on when this confession came the confession we have that where he implicates himself
00:50:00
as a potential good suspect in Denise flum's case comes from a list that he created and
00:50:07
the best I could do Captain was to determine that he created this list in either 2010 or 2011. and on this list he
00:50:17
lists 39 girls and women he does not say that he murdered them he says that these
00:50:24
are girls or women that he abducted well on that list he the list is pretty simple
00:50:33
he puts a date which is simply a year he doesn't give exact dates just a year right he gives a name if he can provide
00:50:42
a name sometimes he just says girl or uh will give a different title and then he provides a general location
00:50:52
well his list starts with a girl or a person named Debbie in 1981 if we go down the list one two
00:51:01
three four names from Debbie's name he has listed 1986 Denise Connersville Indiana well that certainly matches up
00:51:12
with our Denise flum case yeah the problem with law enforcement with Larry Hall is is he a serial killer or
00:51:22
is he a Serial Confessor or a wannabe he's been called a wannabe by several investigators and look if you get the
00:51:29
time to check out Blackbird on Apple TV it's a very fascinating story and I'll just break it down as quick as I can
00:51:41
he's arrested we don't know if he's a serial killer or a Serial Confessor so there was this famous cop
00:51:50
that his son was arrested for I believe selling drugs James Keane is the son's name so they're
00:51:58
like well look this this is a son of uh law enforcement a really respectable officer we're going to approach the
00:52:06
officer and talk with his son and say hey we can put you in a Maximum Security Prison he's he he's in a cupcake prison
00:52:15
but we can put you in a Maximum Security Prison you be friends Larry Hall you get him to confess
00:52:24
you get him to tell you where the bodies are and if you do so we'll let you out of prison
00:52:32
done and done so he takes the deal and what happens is he does become friends with Larry Hall
00:52:42
and gets Larry Hall to confess to certain things and then at some point Larry Hall has this map
00:52:49
that he has red dots on it and those red dots indicate where these crimes took place and he was carving
00:52:56
these little I believe there were owls and that he would place the owls roughly where the victims were I believe
00:53:05
they were Falcons Falcons okay but this is where James Keane screws it up and he's admitted that he screwed this up
00:53:13
but he's in a Maximum Security Prison probably fearful of his life with every turn also probably fearful that he's
00:53:21
going to be found out that he's our informant for the FBI and he sees this map and instead of
00:53:31
taking his time and telling law enforcement and making sure that they can get to this map
00:53:37
that Larry Hall has created he loses it yeah and he basically tells Larry Hall you are the scum of the earth
00:53:45
you're a giant pile of [ __ ] and it blows his cover and he's unable for a time period to get I think
00:53:54
probably what happened was he tried to get in touch with his well he's a guy agent he got he gets moved to solitary
00:54:01
confinement so good luck getting your information out when you're locked up in a in a tiny
00:54:07
little room all by yourself and so at the time this was an actual actually a medical center for federal
00:54:14
prisoners in Springfield Missouri at the time and when he sees this map according
00:54:21
to James Keane he believes that the red dots on the map and the black birds or the Falcons or the owls or whatever they
00:54:28
were we don't get clear indication of from Larry Hall exactly what these birds are but he believes this to be markings
00:54:37
of where either where bodies are left by Larry Hall or where he abducted a murder victim or where he murdered a
00:54:48
victim uh Larry Hall gets very difficult because there's a lot of people that believe he drove around this big van
00:54:55
this big old van and there's no doubt he's a murderer so even though he's never been convicted of
00:55:02
murder keep in mind the kidnapping charge that he is currently incarcerated for is a an abduction that resulted in death
00:55:15
so he is a murderer the difficult thing with him is a lot of these people on his list
00:55:24
a good deal of them have never been found which makes it one incredibly difficult
00:55:30
for an investigation but then on top of that this guy roamed and roamed and roamed
00:55:37
the Midwest to a degree that's unheard of I mean we've talked often about a vehicle being
00:55:45
a Serial Killer's tool or weapon this is crazy I mean he's driving around this murder wagon this murder van
00:55:54
and sometimes he would he would assault and kill or it's believed I should say it's
00:56:02
believed that he would assault and kill a victim where he found them and sometimes leave them where he found them
00:56:09
but other times he would abduct them and drive them very far away and torture them in this van that he had
00:56:19
also known to mutilate the bodies now when you read this it actually says mutilate the body sexually
00:56:28
I I'm not we don't need to go too far down that road but I mean this guy is a horrible
00:56:35
individual and that's my other problem though with Ben Johnson in the whole Johnson family is you do have people in
00:56:42
law enforcement that go look Larry Hall is a very good suspect for Denise's murder
00:56:50
let us search your property is it possible that he dispose of the body not I mean think about that if if he
00:56:59
came across Denise looking for her purse and somehow captured her or got her to move her car or maybe there
00:57:11
was some car problems or whatever got her to pull over got her to pull over maybe he was parked on the side of the
00:57:17
road and and she thought maybe he was some guy from the party who knows but it's like he is a good suspect
00:57:25
and he might have disposed of the body roughly where he came in contact with her at because it was a very remote
00:57:32
rural area so let them search the property and the thing is is if they do find her remains and they
00:57:43
can connect the case back to your son well then you're taking a murderer that you clearly have stated his family has
00:57:51
clearly stated that he has mental issues and you're taking a very dangerous person off the streets whether that's a
00:58:00
family member or not but it's possible that you find her remains and you're able to tie that back to Larry Hall
00:58:08
Larry Hall was arrested in 1994 and he was convicted in 1995 and sentenced to life in prison without parole for the
00:58:16
kidnapping of Jessica roach now under the federal system if a suspect is convicted in a
00:58:23
kidnapping that results in death there is a mandatory life term with no parole so he is not getting out as said when
00:58:33
James Keane was working on getting confessions from Larry Hall they were spending time at a medical center for
00:58:39
federal prisoners in Springfield Missouri Hall is currently serving time at the butler Federal Corrections complex in
00:58:48
the great state of North Carolina now he has on multiple occasions admitted to several
00:58:57
murders and in fact in 2010 or 2011 he admitted to per this list the Abduction of
00:59:06
39 females and he was heavily involved in the in participating in Civil War reenact reenactments from
00:59:18
1980 to 1994. according to his list of 39 that he provided to a reporter he was actively abducting girls and
00:59:28
women from 1981 up until he was arrested in 1994. and now some people have called
00:59:35
him a wannabe some people have said that he's made all this up I think we have to
00:59:42
when you take a look at this You Gotta Give unfortunately you got to give Larry Hall a little bit
00:59:48
of credibility here because before they arrested him in 1994 one thing that that separated him they
00:59:56
had some suspects in some of these cases these outstanding cases Larry Hall was a suspect in two of their
01:00:01
cases they started taking a good look at Larry Hall and then what they realized they're like wait a second
01:00:06
we have 11 reports 11 police reports from girls in five different towns that say they
01:00:18
were approached by Larry Hall and multiple occasions these 11 reports they give the V they give a description
01:00:28
of his van and a description of him his van is pretty unique it's over 10 years old at the time it's two-toned
01:00:36
well and some of them are actually able to give his license plate he's unique looking because he's got mutton chops he
01:00:43
looks like [ __ ] he's on the shorter side he's a little heavier and like the captain said there were
01:00:49
multiple reports where what could have been a potential victim was able to give a complete license plate number to
01:00:58
law enforcement and in fact one time one of these reports comes from a girl that
01:01:03
says he he was stalking her she's out on her biker she's out walking around and he's driving up and keeps approaching
01:01:10
her and keeps approaching her and keeps approaching her and she notifies a police officer
01:01:16
who she provides the license plate too he tracks Larry Hall down ask him what are
01:01:22
you out here doing Larry Hall goes well I'm out here looking for my friend's address I'm trying to locate this person
01:01:29
I know right and unfortunately they don't haul him in right then and there the law enforcement officer goes back to
01:01:37
the station and later looks up that address to learn that it was a fake address that Larry Hall provided there
01:01:45
on the spot to get himself out of a jam so all of these different reports and then he confesses to killing Jessica
01:01:52
roach then recance that statement and then that's when they are able to get a search warrant for his vehicle and for
01:02:01
his property well and one of the reasons why I think he's a really good suspect in Denise's case is because when he'd go
01:02:09
to do these Civil War or Revolutionary War reenactments they might be taking place on a Saturday
01:02:17
or Sunday and he would leave early so he would peruse these towns on that Thursday or the Friday before
01:02:27
and so here we have a girl that goes missing midday Friday very likely he was in the area for one
01:02:37
of these reenactments in Larry Hall's initial confession regarding the murder of
01:02:43
Jessica roach he told investigators that he tied her up but can't remember with what he says he took off her pants and
01:02:52
then he says that he later raped Jessica led her to the woods and then strangled
01:02:58
her from behind he said that he did this because he did not want to see her face as she died he
01:03:05
says that I laid her up against a tree and put a belt around her neck and then she stopped breathing again remember he
01:03:14
then later recants this confession which leads to searching for evidence at his in his van and at his
01:03:24
property during that confession though Captain he also admitted to abducting and killing other girls and gives very
01:03:33
vague statements saying all of the girls look alike I can't remember all of them
01:03:38
I picked up several girls in other areas but I can't remember which ones I hurt well Larry Hall's interesting because
01:03:45
like I said he's he's driving around looking for opportunities but he also seemed to have a very
01:03:52
distinct type and Denise would fall into that type of victim very similar build very similar
01:04:01
look they found what they are calling a kill kit or abduction kit in his van which
01:04:08
I think we're getting a shortened version of the amount of items that were found but what is reported is that it
01:04:15
was rope knives a ski mask ether which was also described as a rag soaked in starter fluid which can be used to
01:04:26
incapacitate somebody and also in the van they found news stories about kidnappings and serial
01:04:34
killers now when they search his home they find list in journals that Larry Hall
01:04:44
it's believed that they were made by Larry Hall and some of the notes were seen joggers and bikers many alone
01:04:52
so it's like he's driving around and taking notes on the different locations that he is he's in scene joggers and
01:04:59
bikers many of them alone he goes on in in the notes to say check colleges check
01:05:04
parks seen some prospects then he has a list of items to buy at the hardware store
01:05:11
with detailed instructions and the list says buy two more plastic tarps cover all floor and sides of van
01:05:21
no body contact buy condoms buy two more leather belts find one now I don't know
01:05:28
if he means find one belt now or find a victim now and investigators also found newspaper clippings about Jessica roach
01:05:35
who he was later convicted of kidnapping they also found pornographic photos that
01:05:42
they believe were altered by Larry Hall one investigator saying quote he had drawn what looked like a rope or belt
01:05:50
around the neck of one of the people and on the left side of one of the pictures
01:05:55
the left side of the mouth he had drawn blood and here's where I have to unfortunately give a little bit of
01:06:01
credibility to Larry Hall's confessions or at the very least list that he provided to that reporter
01:06:10
in 2010-2011. because on that list we have Denise's name 1986 Connersville Indiana
01:06:20
her name is wedged between two other what he's listing as abduction victims for the same year 1986.
01:06:29
milia is listed as Summerfield Illinois 1986 listed just above Denise's name just below Denise's name we have Kim
01:06:40
1986 this is from Champaign Illinois the thing that's interesting to me here Captain is Malia Chavez was from
01:06:51
California her body was found in Summerfield Illinois and I went through and I cross-referenced a lot of these names
01:07:00
listed with the year and the location that he provided on the list they all check out there's all a victim
01:07:09
with that name from that location who went missing the year that he provides so that's a little weird now it's also
01:07:18
not completely out of the realm of possibility that he's just reading about serial killers he's clipping all these
01:07:24
news stories about abductions and therefore he's been able to memorize them or put them to Memory and now he's
01:07:31
simply interacting with this reporter and getting some kind of satisfaction from providing this reporter with all
01:07:39
these false leads or this false confession to all these 39 different abductions but the one that I want to
01:07:45
hone in on is this milia Chavez of California what's so interesting to me is that yes
01:07:52
he provides this name on his list in 2010 or 2011. she was abducted and went missing in 1986. the remains that were
01:08:04
recovered were not identified until 2007. and she was from another state a state
01:08:12
far away California she was found in Somerville Illinois I don't know that he would know that
01:08:22
via newspaper or somebody else telling him you know you see what I mean there's there's enough mystery there
01:08:29
and he gets enough right with such a little to go on that that seems to me that there could be
01:08:38
a lot of Truth at least to this one particular victim that he has listed and it's a victim that he's got listed
01:08:45
right next to Denise's name it's it's very difficult to sit here and say which ones we think
01:08:52
he committed but I think that there's probably some truth along the way to this 39.
01:09:00
I don't know that I believe all of them but they're just not able to connect him to
01:09:07
this I also wonder with some of these cases and some of the jurisdictions how how much effort or time or resources
01:09:15
they want to spend on it knowing that he's not getting out of prison but the other problem though too is with these
01:09:21
kill kits and possibly these tools or weapons used in the murders well that's great and maybe you could do some kind
01:09:29
of DNA tests as far as like Gene genealogy but a lot of these victims their remains
01:09:37
were never recovered correct most of these victims were never recovered we do have several investigators that are on
01:09:45
record saying that if there were to be a DNA match to Larry Hall in some of their
01:09:51
cases he won't be prosecuted because he simply can't be released from prison that he's locked up in federal prison
01:10:00
but here's the thing here's where I say wake up a little bit because it's all set up that he'll never be
01:10:08
released in December of 2021 Larry Hall and attorneys filed motions for what's called a compassionate release
01:10:18
he was asking for the courts to release him from prison stating that he is overweight
01:10:24
that he is up there in years he has high blood pressure and therefore he is more susceptible to dying from
01:10:35
getting coveted 19. and that they should take that into consideration and then release him from
01:10:42
prison as a compassionate release thankfully he was denied this compassionate release
01:10:49
now one thing that that I want to talk about too is as far as civil war reenactments go
01:11:00
and the captain hit on something very very important when you talk about Larry Hall
01:11:07
this guy drove a lot this guy would often leave early for these reenactments and he would often come back late
01:11:16
well I couldn't find anything in the greater Connersville Indiana area for the day
01:11:23
or two in question regarding Denise flum's disappearance but there was a Civil War reenactment in Henning
01:11:32
Tennessee which was held at Fort Pillow State historic area March 22nd and March
01:11:38
23rd 1986. it would not be impossible for Larry Hall to travel down from Wabash from Wabash Indiana down to Henning
01:11:49
Tennessee and stop off on in Connersville along the way or on the on the way back
01:11:57
the other thing too was just the previous year in 1985 Sunday October 13th in Roberts
01:12:05
park there was a Civil War reenactment in Connersville Indiana so there's a chance he had been to the area the year
01:12:12
before just six months before Denise was abducted so there are some things that do
01:12:19
certainly tie him to this case into a lot of other cases well like I said we have three good suspects so I think you
01:12:26
could make an argument for either one and then we have confessions with all these Suspects
01:12:32
but that's what pisses me off we have three good suspects we have confessions and I believe if law enforcement would
01:12:39
have done the work that they needed to do initially we would have answers in this case and
01:12:46
possibly would know where Denise's remains were and the family would have some closure and the community would
01:12:52
have some closure Connersville has been haunted by Denise's case and I I think it'll be continuing to be haunted until
01:13:00
they get answers in 2007 the Indiana State Police were able to collect DNA Denise flum's DNA so she has been listed
01:13:13
now in National databases of missing persons so if or when her remains are recovered they can be identified as that
01:13:24
of Denise flum if anybody has any information regarding the death or disappearance of Denise flum please
01:13:33
contact the Fayette County Indiana Sheriff's Department or if anyone has any information regarding Larry Duane
01:13:43
Hall please contact the FBI [Music] get away [Music] want to thank you all for joining us
01:14:04
here in the garage make sure you are subscribed to the podcast Colonel do we have any recommended reading for the
01:14:12
beautiful beautiful listeners yes we do Captain this week we are recommending a classic it's called love me to death by
01:14:19
the great Steve Jackson this is the chilling true story of William Wild Bill Cody Neal The Vicious Denver lady killer
01:14:29
this was originally released in 2011 by New York Times best-selling author Steve
01:14:36
Jackson and he's also a an award-winning journalist as well this was re-released
01:14:42
at the end of last year because again it is a true crime classic so check out love me to death by the great Steve
01:14:51
Jackson you can find that recommendation and many more on our recommended page at
01:14:56
our website truecrimegarage.com and if you're not following us on YouTube check us out at True Crime Garage on YouTube
01:15:03
and until next week be good be kind and don't litter foreign [Music] [Applause] [Music]