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GameChanger [Music] [Applause] yeah [Applause] welcome to True Crime garage wherever
00:01:45
you are whatever you are doing thanks for listening I'm your host Nick and with me as always is a man that just
00:01:50
like Guns and Roses once he gets outside of the states he just totally forgets where he is he is the captain hello
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Sydney oh [ __ ] we're in Melbourne cheers [Music] mates today we are drinking Island
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Reserve Russian imperial stout by the wonderful people at Cisco Brewers Incorporated here's a great after dinner
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chocolate flavor with nice hints of fruit garage grade four and A4 bottle caps out of five and this week's beer
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was brought to us by these awesome peeps we have Frederick in Sweden long distance cheers to you my friend thank
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you Frederick next up in Parts Unknown we have Erica and Edna who say we would like to buy you guys a beer well Erica
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and Edna we accept your offer and we'd like your gy we also have Wesley in San Diego Stay classy Wesley Wesley says I'm
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always amazed at the thoroughness of each and every case thanks for the great podcast Wesley thank you homie eat the
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poop let's give a big shout out to to Kent in Bloomington Indiana thank you Kent we also have Sarah in Columbia
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well thank you Sarah and I drank a few of those over the weekend just perhaps and last but not least we have Aida and
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the Beer fun go to True Crim garage.com and give us a little love and like always we like your J that's enough of
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the business everybody gather around grab a chair grab a beer and let's talk some true
00:03:51
[Music] crime [Music] come on Michael I think they were all four of them were tied
00:04:15
up but I don't remember with what who tied those girls on um Rob all four of them he had had some help he needed some
00:04:26
help he couldn't tie all four up by himself I don't remember if I helped him or not okay you think you might have
00:04:32
helped him I I guess I did okay what were they tied up with come on Michael you know what were
00:04:40
they T just tell us what were they tied up with white it was had I remember being stetched with I think it was a
00:04:46
t-shirt t-shirt okay what else were they tied up with uh t-shirt and go ahead you
00:04:55
remember you remember Michael Wales come on brother you know you know you know t-shirt and I want to say
00:05:06
electrical cord no think harder t-shirt and something else I'm not going to tell you but you
00:05:17
know I want to hear from you I'm trying to remember guys something else this t-shirt is something else and
00:05:27
you have around time up I think I guess I did yeah you did what were the girls wearing by the
00:05:35
time they were tied up what were they wearing Michael that's a gim me yeah that's an easy one not a whole lot not a
00:05:40
whole lot they use their own clothes to tie them up use their own clothes to tie
00:05:44
them up you can rob them by the time you were done what were they wearing say it
00:05:49
nothing nothing there you [Music] go back in December of 1991 in Austin Texas four teenage girls were bound and
00:06:04
killed in a small yogurt shop the store of course was robbed and this is a this is a case that has gripped the City of
00:06:11
Austin Texas and has gripped the the state of Texas as well we are sitting here now 25 years later still asking the
00:06:19
question who killed these girls so a quick recap when the firefighters show up to the I Can't Believe It's Yogurt
00:06:26
Shop they realize quickly it's not just an but we have a quadruple homicide so that's going to be a sign to detective
00:06:34
Jones and detective Huckabee and in my opinion those two detectives I think they worked the case very well they had
00:06:41
a lot of issues here with the with the investigation this being we have people making confessions and that is tough
00:06:48
because a lot of these confessions are pretty wild uh According to Jones and hucke uh they're they're able to easily
00:06:55
quickly sit down with these different people these confessors and figure figure out early in their stories that
00:07:01
they don't know certain details of the crime things that would have taken place that evening or evidence that was left
00:07:07
and collected at the scene they're unaware of what actually took place so we're able to quickly dismiss several of
00:07:14
these confessors 8 days after the murders took place they arrest Maurice Pierce which had a 22 caliber gun which
00:07:22
was the gun used in at least three of the murders and he implements his teenage friends um Jones and hucke kind
00:07:29
of get to the bottom of this guy is just kind of bullshitting yeah and on top of
00:07:34
that the gun does not match the ballistics of the bullets that were found on the scene so they they get rid
00:07:40
of these suspects and they clear them and they've moved on in the case right so leads are starting to dry up now and
00:07:47
in 1992 we have a Madman that's running a muck in the state of Texas he's a known serial killer he was somebody that
00:07:54
was released by the Texas prison system and he's been suspected of new killings well they track him down in
00:08:02
1992 and they suspect that he possibly could have done this crime because he was somewhat in the area around the time
00:08:10
that the crime was committed he would have been in Austin Texas they can place him there about 23 days after the crime
00:08:16
yeah within a month him and another person abduct a lady uh and they rape her and murder her yeah uh she was
00:08:25
abducted from a Downtown Car Wash and this this crime took place the shop murders took place in North Austin city
00:08:32
and that killer's name that serial killer's name is Kenneth McDuff he's eventually you know they stop looking at
00:08:38
him because there's really nothing that ties to him as far as forensics goes in 1994 detective Jones who was the lead
00:08:45
investigator of the yogurt shop murders he receives a promotion and they move him off of the case the case is
00:08:52
considered cold at this point now in 1996 we have other detectives that would move in and start looking at this case
00:09:00
with fresh eyes in 1997 we have a serial killer that is captured he will become known as the fast food killer yeah he
00:09:08
was a pretty bad dude and he was running a muck in the state of Tennessee uh what
00:09:13
his emmo was was he would walk into a fast food restaurant and he would really take the scene over he would he would
00:09:21
take control of the scene by holding a gun to everybody he would make a quick robbery he would usually steal the
00:09:27
surveillance tapes if there were any he would execute all of the persons in the store and then he would leave within a
00:09:35
very short time period from February 16th 1997 to April 23rd 1997 he robbed three different stores
00:09:44
and in the course of he ended up killing a total of seven people yeah and he's not just a suspect because he is known
00:09:51
to rob you know McDonald's or Captain D's and that you know the yogurt shop it would fall kind of in that line mhm he
00:09:59
is also from the area of Texas yeah he was he was born in Texas and at a young age he started getting in trouble with
00:10:07
the law in 1983 he Robs a Houston Steakhouse and he's convicted of aggravated armed
00:10:13
robbery he receives a 20-year prison sentence for this but he's paroled after just 7 years he's paroled in 1990 which
00:10:21
and he stays in the Texas area he becomes a truck driver so he was in the area at you know in ' 91 yes and during
00:10:29
this time he's he's driving a truck he ends up in some kind of bad accident and he receives quite a handsome settlement
00:10:36
for this and he decides that he's going to get some plastic surgery because it's
00:10:41
funny that he said a handsome uh you know and then rolled it into plastic surgery right right well he's kind of an
00:10:47
ugly kid um I'll go ahead and throw that out there and and He makes himself look
00:10:51
a little better and he decides he wants to move to Nashville to become a a country western singer Nash Vegas yeah I
00:10:58
believe he wanted to become the next G Brooks no but he had the talent of Billy Ray Cyrus yeah I that might be that
00:11:05
might be giving him far too much credit uh but there are some reasons to suspect
00:11:10
that he might have done this this is certainly something he would have been capable of however his crimes were a
00:11:16
little bit different in the sense that he he didn't rape anybody involved in these these crimes that he committed up
00:11:23
in Tennessee now I'm not saying he's not capable of doing so it really seems like
00:11:27
his motive was for the money and a financial gain and it wasn't you know where these crimes these yogurt
00:11:34
shop murders really seem like to me more sexual in nature and it just was by you
00:11:39
know well I'm leaving the crime scene I might as well take some money with me as
00:11:43
I go yeah and it at the yogurt shop they only the whoever got away with this they
00:11:48
only took $540 and they spent a decent amount of time there assaulting the girls his
00:11:55
crimes he got into a place he would take as much money as he could most of the time we're talking about upwards of
00:12:01
$2,000 or $3,000 each time and he would he would leave no evidence and he would kill everybody in the store he was quick
00:12:08
in and quick out which is not what we saw in the yogurt shop murders plus he was never known to work with anybody
00:12:15
else I think the yogurt shop it looks like a situation where you have more than one as salent so detectives looking
00:12:22
into Paul Reed they kind of realize he's kind of a lone cowboy he's you know he's
00:12:26
not tag team back again um but this will lead them to go back through their notes and start to
00:12:33
requestion some people that that Jones and Huckabee already questioned back in 91 yeah they're going through the file
00:12:40
they're going over this case time and time again and what they keep going back to is this Maurice Pierce keeps standing
00:12:47
out to them and his three friends that he has Robert Springsteen Michael Scott and Forest wilbourne the East Street
00:12:55
Band yeah so they decide that you know what this is the most likely situation these guys did it uh Maurice Pierce
00:13:03
looks very guilty he has a 22 caliber gun on him just days after the crime he mentions the crime to people he's kind
00:13:11
of a natural born criminal yeah so he is picked up and this would be in October of 1999 they arrest all four men and
00:13:20
they are going to sit each one of them down individually and now we're going to start getting some answers some much
00:13:28
long AWA answers that we've been looking for in this crime well they're going to
00:13:32
start getting answers cuz they're going to force these answers upon these these suspects yeah to say that the
00:13:39
interrogation was aggressive might be an understatement of the century yes um so
00:13:46
what happens is they pull in the four they're talking to him right uh Maurice Pierce has got nothing to offer you know
00:13:52
he keeps saying that NOP I I didn't have anything to do with this I don't know what you're talking about yeah even
00:13:58
though you know Maurice at the time of 90 and ' 91 he was like 15 or so so he's just this Punk kid he had the 22 caliber
00:14:07
he you know basically implements his friends into the the crime but that was just kind of him being a dumb you know
00:14:15
dumbass 15-year-old yeah I believe his statement was that he had lent the gun to Forest wilborne and that Forest had
00:14:21
used the gun in the yogurt shop murders this is what put them on the radar from the get-go now when they're talking to
00:14:28
them as said here here's what their thought is going into this okay so they believe that Maurice Pierce is some kind
00:14:34
of criminal mastermind and he organized this whole uh robbery right and they believe that Robert Springsteen helped
00:14:43
and Michael Scott helped they believe that Forest wilborne would have been the lookout guy or the driver um they
00:14:51
believe that it would have taken a group of men to to commit these crimes now keep in mind though these are just
00:14:56
teenage boys at the time now they're being questioned years later as adults right we have two of them that
00:15:06
might be willing to talk and we have two of them that they don't know anything right Maurice Pierce he doesn't know
00:15:13
anything Forest Wilborn he doesn't know anything they're not admitting to anything in 1999 two of the suspects are
00:15:19
24 uh Michael James Scott is 25 and Forest wellburn is 23 now they get Michael Scott to crack first right and
00:15:30
this is quite the long process we're talking about hours and hours of interrogation and to to listen to the
00:15:38
confession to view it you will see that the story is changing as Michael's telling it uh yeah and if you listen to
00:15:46
the trailer that was about 7 hours into one of the interrogations mhm so where he is they finally broken him down they
00:15:55
finally get him to the point where he admits that he was there that he had taken place in the crime now
00:16:02
he they got to go through the details because they got to confirm that he was actually there well that's the problem
00:16:07
mhm he doesn't know the details no he doesn't get a lot of them right without being coaxed to to getting it right you
00:16:15
know he would often give a wrong answer and they would tell him no that's not it
00:16:20
think harder you need to try harder yeah the detective keeps saying I'm not going
00:16:25
to give you the right answer right yeah not going to give you the right answer but what he does constantly is he tells
00:16:32
you when your answer is wrong so by a process of elimination you're going to get to the right answer oh no they were
00:16:38
tied up with their clothes okay they were tied up with their clothes well what clothes you know uh well maybe this
00:16:46
part of their cloth no wrong you know and he keeps doing that and until he gets the right answer and just to paint
00:16:53
the picture for you if you've not seen the confession tapes MH Michael Scott he is literally sitting with his back up
00:17:01
against the wall I mean he's pushed up against the wall and he has two detectives on each side of him right up
00:17:07
in his face and they're all sitting down in chairs and they are right up in his face and they are very aggressive well
00:17:13
got they got the good cop and bad cop going they got one cop that kind of leans back constantly and then the the
00:17:20
main cop questioning is like maybe a couple inches from his face yeah so every time no no yeah yeah you got the
00:17:29
bad cop saying no you didn't get that right and the good cop is saying it's okay Michael you can tell us we know you
00:17:34
know the answers um so they play that game for quite some time and we let's go through Michael Scott's confession okay
00:17:42
he states that they were all four of them they were hanging out at the North Cross Mall which was very close to the
00:17:48
yogurt shop and that Maurice Pierce is in need of money so he comes up with this idea that we're going to go rob
00:17:56
someplace and he actually picks out the yogurt shop they agree to go to the yogurt shop yeah which is probably a
00:18:02
pretty common place for teenagers in that town because most of the employees there are teenagers he says that the the
00:18:09
event starts off like this Maurice goes into the yogurt shop and places an order
00:18:14
and then Robert and Michael they go in and they ask to use the restroom they want to go to the back of the store to
00:18:21
see what's going on in the back now during that time they're going to open up the back door and they're going to
00:18:27
prop it open and like we have from the reports the back door was propped open and the front door was locked yeah and
00:18:34
they're going to wait for the store to close at 11:00 now after the store closes Maurice and Robert are going to
00:18:40
go back in through the propped open back door and they are going to they have guns at this point and they are going to
00:18:47
rob this place right what ends up happening is during the course of this robbery they ask the women the girls I'm
00:18:56
sorry to remove their clothing uh this being Robert and then Michael Scott He ties up the girls and he gags them then
00:19:05
Maurice he's demanding money from the girls but they refuse or they say something like there is no money and
00:19:13
when this happens Maurice shoots two of the girls Robert then hits one of the girls and he rapes her yeah which again
00:19:21
this all lines up with the reports now the fourth girl is screaming and she's begging for her life she's begging that
00:19:28
they do not shoot her um Michael Scott then pretends to sexually assault her he's saying that he was being told by
00:19:36
the other guys to to rape her and that he he just pretended to sexually assault the girl and he can't remember at this
00:19:43
point which suspect handed him the gun yeah and it's at this point that he does shoot that girl and then he would go on
00:19:51
to shoot Amy who was raped by Robert and at this point Michael Scott then says he
00:19:57
is the one that stacked the body and he also says that he's the one that I think
00:20:01
administers the the accelerant you're exactly right again something that's a little strange because a 24 25y old uh
00:20:10
this is cops speak MH you know a lot of detectives that have looked detectives and lawyers that have looked at these
00:20:16
confessions say it's funny because the the actual written accounts because you have the verbal confessions and we have
00:20:23
those taped and those are horrendous enough but then they have to take all those statements and then now put them
00:20:29
on paper and basically by looking at the the written statements these cops go well it's kind of strange that the these
00:20:36
kids are constantly using cops speak MH yeah it's like they're picking up words as they're going along and and they
00:20:43
state that you know it would have been more common to hear a criminal say lighter fluid rather than accelerant um
00:20:50
at this point they leave the building through the back door uh they leave it propped open and Michael Scott says that
00:20:57
the whole this whole thing only takes about 20 minutes from the time that they enter the building after closing until
00:21:04
they leave now when they get back to the vehicle Forest wilborne is no longer in
00:21:09
the vehicle he is left yeah rumor has it he's off somewhere playing a pretend game of pocket pole yeah actually the
00:21:15
the three boys drive around and they're looking for forest and they find him in a park uh they pick him up and then at
00:21:22
some point they are going to ditch a knife that they had taken from the crime scene
00:21:28
I'm guessing this would have been to cut up some of the girls clothing or belongings to use them as you know
00:21:34
bindings um the other boy that confessed the man now Robert Springstein his confession is similar it does line up
00:21:43
with some of the things that Michael Scott said um one of those one of the key things here is that they both admit
00:21:51
that Robert raped Amy which that's kind of a a percentage kind of kind of thing right when you think about it you have
00:21:59
four asants and one only they're saying only one girl was raped well I mean let's go back a little bit on this
00:22:06
because detectives yeah we have four suspects but detectives are already kind of leading them on to this idea that
00:22:13
well forest was outside mhm that so there now there's only three so you got a 33% chance of getting the person right
00:22:21
that's true that's true yeah and they they both said that forest was outside as well and they both said that the door
00:22:27
the back door was propped open it's a little unclear on Robert's statement as to when he's saying the back door was
00:22:35
propped open was it propped open to get back into the store or was it propped open when they left the store um he also
00:22:43
seems to have some knowledge of the other bullet remember we said there was a second gun used in the situation he
00:22:50
seems to have some kind of knowledge that there was a 38 involved not just this 22 that they were already aware of
00:22:56
right which again all this starts lining up with the reports but again his confession is much shorter much less
00:23:04
detail and there are parts of it you know that do not match up with Michael Scotts uh there are some things that
00:23:12
that these guys do not get right yeah one of the main things that like Defenders of these Austin 4 is what
00:23:19
we'll call them is that it's the you know Robert claims that he they stack the bodies and then he lit the bodies on
00:23:26
fire right the initial reports from the the firefighters uh and the fire chief and the fire investigation was that no
00:23:34
the bodies weren't actually set on fire that it would have been the shelves if you look at the crime scene though
00:23:40
they're right beside each other yeah it they would have been the body stack would have been about you know just four
00:23:46
or five feet from this stock shelf you know where you have plastic cups or I'm sorry styrofoam cups and things of that
00:23:52
nature um it's it's not crazy to to think that maybe this shelf wouldn't have fallen over at some point um but
00:24:00
Michael says that he had used these styrofoam cups with lighter fluid to to light the body stack on fire now what
00:24:08
would end up happening is after they get these confessions um they would go back
00:24:12
and they would find a new fire investigator to take a look at the crime scene and this fire investigator says
00:24:19
you know what I disagree with the previous findings what actually happened is that the the body stack is where the
00:24:26
fire had originated from well this is what is so freaking annoying right I mean we see this time and time again in
00:24:33
these cases that go unsolved most of the time when a case goes unsolved it's because these detectives not not Jones
00:24:41
not hucke but these detectives go on this uh this Mission we have a theory now let's prove the theory and like
00:24:49
we've always heard uh some of the smartest detectives that we've met and that we've interviewed you know trying
00:24:54
to do our job a little bit better on the podcast get some Insider information it's the guys that say look
00:25:01
I am not smart enough to to imagine what happened so I let the evidence present itself to me and present the story to me
00:25:11
yeah you follow the evidence you don't come up with the theory Theory and make the shoe fit right and and some of the
00:25:18
detectives that we've talked to in the columus PD have been really good about this and the idea that they've even said
00:25:25
hey look when you're working on a hom side you might have two three detectives involved sometimes more right and
00:25:32
they've talked several times about how they've had uh Partners or people that they've thought really highly of that
00:25:40
would come up with theories M and then they'd have to rope them back in hey man you're just you're just trying to make
00:25:46
the shoe fit knock it off this is not Cinderella right right and the the thing here is here's some other things that
00:25:53
don't actually fit right and these are things in their written confession so we have the the back door was propped open
00:26:00
one thing that they could not agree on was what did they use to prop open the back door one had said it was a rock one
00:26:06
had said that it was a pack of cigarettes the problem being here is that again according to their story the
00:26:13
door would have been propped open on two different occasions so it's possible that both items were actually used well
00:26:19
and let's let's just remind the listeners I mean this is this questioning is happening in
00:26:24
1999 and not 1991 mhm so some of your account is going to be off right now one thing that that they couldn't get right
00:26:33
too was they had said that the murders took place inside the office well this was a big red flag to the original
00:26:41
detective that was on the case detective Jones because he states that when the police arrived on the scene there was no
00:26:48
evidence that anyone had entered that office it was a locked door and it was locked when they arrived um the murders
00:26:56
100% took place place in the back room in that stocking area in that prep area that we had talked about and they
00:27:02
probably know that for well again this case is so tough because of the arson MH and and because the firefighters did not
00:27:09
know that they were going into a a crime scene and because they were trying to put out that that those fires that
00:27:15
probably really Disturbed uh any blood splatter MH so it you know we can't say 100% that that's where that happened but
00:27:24
what we can say is that when detective showed up on the scene 100% that office was locked and they had to actually get
00:27:30
a key from somebody to unlock lock that office which makes a lot of sense because who is left in charge of
00:27:37
shutting down the yogurt shop two teenage girls right and and so the manager I'm sure would go okay I'm going
00:27:43
to lock this up or or maybe that was part of their Duty you know you put the money away lock it up um but I don't
00:27:51
think there was a key on on site and then I don't think there was a key to the office that even the the the teenage
00:27:57
girls had well and keep in mind too this under this premise right according to their story the whole reason anything
00:28:05
took place there that night was because it was a robbery the motive was to rob the store and get money which I think
00:28:13
both of us agree that that wasn't the motive I I don't think so you're exactly right the thing here is though Captain
00:28:19
if the if the whole motive was robbery remember we're saying that they were inside that store under their own words
00:28:26
for 20 minutes M I would argue that it might be closer to an hour that somebody was in the store but regardless there
00:28:33
was a lot of things that took place once that store closed MH and and a lot of things happening and I can't I wouldn't
00:28:42
be able to sit here and have somebody tell me that there was a key in that store or that there was access to the
00:28:48
key to the robbers and that they didn't go into the office looking for more money or valuables if that if if robbery
00:28:55
was the motive now Michael Scott did get the um the positioning of the bodies correct he he had a good idea of that as
00:29:04
well as he did know that Amy was not on the body stack he knew that that she she
00:29:10
was in a separate area the problem I have with this statement and this is exactly what the police said they said
00:29:16
you know he got he got the body positioning right that that's really tough to do and I will give them that
00:29:22
but here's where I have a problem one thing he did not get right is he didn't he wasn't able to fully describe the
00:29:30
layout of the store so yeah maybe you could get the positionings of the bodies right but how could you get the
00:29:37
positionings of where they were inside the store you see what I'm saying with if you don't even know or understand the
00:29:44
layout of the store well and there's a lot of things and we'll we'll get right back into uh not only what did they got
00:29:52
right but how they got those things right right after this quick this show is sponsored by Better Health do you
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the confessions got right right and the things that they got wrong uh continuing
00:32:00
on that path here I want to spend a little bit of time talking about this 38 you know we had mentioned that Michael
00:32:07
Scott doesn't seem to know about a second gun he never mentions anything about the 38 however Robert is aware of
00:32:14
the 38 um and this is presented as a problem for these young men and for their their eventual prison sentence
00:32:23
right because this this supposed 38 which we know existed however the police are saying this was a fact that they
00:32:31
kept close to them that the people in the general public would not have known about that I I tend to disagree a little
00:32:38
bit with that statement because as we had said there had been 50 confessions and one thing that the police state was
00:32:45
with with anybody that seemed to have knowledge of the crime they went out and looked for the 38 because they had other
00:32:52
confessors say that you know I dumped the gun here well and we also have four teenage boys and the murder victims were
00:33:00
four teenage girls so we're talking about a lot and and now 8 years have passed so you have eight years of a uh
00:33:08
not a small town I mean this is about uh half a million people in Austin at this
00:33:13
in ' 91 but you have a lot of people in this community talking about this this was
00:33:18
huge news for them so there is a lot of talk so that there is there is a very good possibility that they one heard
00:33:26
that there was more than one weapon and and not and and also we're not talking about just four kids that have not been
00:33:32
involved in this crime we're talking about four teenage boys that were basically arrested or brought in for
00:33:39
questioning 8 days after the event yeah yeah so they may have been told about the 38 then I mean if you're sitting in
00:33:46
a room 8 years ago and somebody's asking you well what about the other gun what about this uh wasn't there a 38 involved
00:33:54
and and you're saying at that time you don't know anything about it well it's easy to jump to that conclusion when
00:33:59
your backs up against the wall and you're being you're being forced to give answers that that you might not have any
00:34:05
knowledge of well and you got this detective you know 2 in from your face and I mean he might have bad breath who
00:34:10
knows but the fact of the matter is you know the the main point of all these confessions that is so blatant is that
00:34:20
yeah they did get some stuff right but how did they get that stuff right right they didn't just say something
00:34:27
you know uh a perfect example in the trailer is when he says well yeah they were bound up by I want to say
00:34:33
electrical cord right right and he goes nope that's not it they got to majority of these right answers by the the
00:34:44
detectives kind of forcing it MH yeah they're they're really you can hear you can hear especially Michael Scott you
00:34:51
can hear him kind of guessing answers and then he's looking to them for approval you know did I get that one
00:34:58
right it's almost like it's almost like a kid in school hoping to get the right answer from the teacher holding the
00:35:04
textbook and and the teacher keeps asking questions and saying no that's not it try it again and and he keeps
00:35:10
changing his answers or modifying his answers to get closer to what the police know to be true now on that 38 we do
00:35:18
have Robert who does claim that they dumped it somewhere and of course they go and look for it now mind you it's
00:35:24
eight years later I've had I've heard people say well this this proves that they're innocent well the gun easily
00:35:31
could have disappeared from wherever they placed it8 years ago right um but but again we have this situation where
00:35:38
they are arriving at answers these aren't answers that they walked in and sat down with the other thing that I
00:35:44
have a problem with here is you still have two guys that haven't confessed to anything right you have two guys you
00:35:51
have two guys that claim to know very much about the crime and two guys that seem to know nothing and even when they
00:35:56
are are presented by investigators well we know you did it because so and so told us this and told us that they hold
00:36:04
true and they sit there and say nope I I wasn't there I don't know what you're talking about the the other thing too
00:36:10
regarding Michael Scott's confession is that part on the tape where he says you know he's asked who was there with you
00:36:18
right and and he he names two of the other people he names I you know I was there with Maurice I was there with
00:36:24
Robert and I was there with Forest and he and he says it in a way that he's like asking a question I'm Ron bergundy
00:36:32
yeah and they take it as okay well now we got the four people that we wanted to hear we wanted to hear all four of those
00:36:38
names why because you have to go back to 1991 when they originally questioned these guys they need force to be there
00:36:46
why because the reason why they picked up Maurice and started questioning him about the yogurt shop murders is because
00:36:52
he said he lent the gun to Forest and Forest had used it in the yogurt shop murders that's what put them on the
00:36:58
radar so they really needed Maurice to be there as well as Forest even if those two didn't confess to anything right and
00:37:07
with Forest I mean it's pretty simple I mean the his interview um you know I I believe it's with dat line I found very
00:37:15
compelling and and very believable because he's pretty much saying look I was not going to lie and and and and
00:37:23
especially not going to lie about this mhm and there's no way I did this so there is no way you're going to get get
00:37:29
me to say that now this is what this is what's weird cuz the community and obviously the victim's parents are going
00:37:36
to start going well these guys are monsters right these guys are savages and um and they need to be locked away
00:37:45
you know maybe death penalty and and because a lot of people have a really hard time wrapping their head around why
00:37:52
would you confess to a crime that you didn't commit mhm and I would like to believe that that would would just not
00:38:00
be possible with me mhm but you know nobody would know this until you were actually in that situation I had a
00:38:07
situation many years ago where I was uh observing a trial right and I had I was close to ATT an attorney that was
00:38:16
involved in the trial and they put one person on the stand and this is before it got to an actual jury trial because
00:38:23
they were trying to determine if they should just plea this thing out or if it should go to a jury trial and one of the
00:38:32
the the attorney was representing a person who wanted it to go to a jury trial the defendant wanted it to go to a
00:38:38
jury because they believed they were innocent now I don't know what actually took place but I was in the hallway and
00:38:46
I overheard what the attorney was saying to the defendant the attorney was saying
00:38:51
let's plea this thing out and the defendant was adamant no it's got to go to a jury because I'm innocent I'm not
00:38:57
pleading to anything right and the attorney said well the reason why I'm saying we should plead to this is
00:39:02
because they're offering a very low plea bargain you know it's something small like pay a fine and we pretend this
00:39:08
never happened right right he's saying let's just take this penalty and agree to it why because the the man that was
00:39:15
just on the stand that was on he was on the stand for almost the course of a whole day and he said you do not want
00:39:22
him to be on the stand in a jury trial and the defendant said well he's lying and the attorney said he might be lying
00:39:30
but here's my perception of this guy okay and this is what I believe a jury will think this guy comes off as not
00:39:38
being very bright he comes off almost to be too dumb to lie where he he he would
00:39:44
be perceivably believable to a jury an audience of such of a jury uh and I I found this to be something that I kind
00:39:53
of kept in the back of my mind when I was when I was reviewing stuff regarding Forest wilborne because we have a guy
00:40:01
here that never confesses to anything right M and and on top of that we have we have we have people from dine we have
00:40:10
investigators from the original investigation that that they all claim that you know Forest is not a bright guy
00:40:17
you know he's not a smart guy you know he couldn't organize a a two-car parade uh he here's the way he strikes me and
00:40:25
and I feel bad for the guy because not only was he brought to and and faced charges regarding this crime but on top
00:40:32
of that then publicly he's put down for for his mental capabilities or whatever they are right and I don't to look I
00:40:40
think it's just frankly insulting I mean he seems he seems like a a nice character and at the end of the day uh
00:40:48
he was smart enough not to confess to a crime he didn't commit and the big problem I have with his portion of this
00:40:56
okay he is stating I was never there he he never admits to anything right now you
00:41:02
got two guys that place him at the scene now okay now wouldn't investigators say
00:41:08
okay let's make a deal with Forest let's make a deal with him because guess what
00:41:11
Forest we know you were there we were told by these other guys that you sat out in the car you didn't have any
00:41:17
involvement with the actual rape the actual tying up of the girls the actual robbery the actual killing of anybody
00:41:24
you were just on the outs of the building waiting for these other guys to return and by their own Omission when
00:41:31
they when they returned to the vehicle or returned outside of the yogurt shop you had fled the scene you you clearly
00:41:38
didn't want any involvement with this right Forest right so Forest why don't you tell us the truth and we might be
00:41:45
able to Grant you immunity or we might be able to Grant you a slap on the wrist and and because had they got a third
00:41:52
confession that would have been that would have been Paramount in this case right right
00:41:56
but Forest has something going for him in this case yeah you got two guys confessing and saying that you're
00:42:02
involved in the case but you got another one of the individuals saying oh yeah by
00:42:06
the way he wasn't there cuz I wasn't there and this [ __ ] didn't happen right right the other thing too is I want to
00:42:14
know more about the timeline one thing that they don't go for in the confession they want to know details of the actual
00:42:20
crime but one thing that they fail to do is to wrap these guys up and on a specific timeline and what I mean by
00:42:27
that is we have Michael Scott who says that the whole thing took about 20 minutes from the time we entered the
00:42:33
building to the time that we left the building well what do we know we know that the doors were locked at 11:00 p.m.
00:42:39
and we know that around midnight the Flames were seen and firefighters were responding to a to a fire call well okay
00:42:45
so that's 1 hour well now let's go ahead and look at what the neighbor said Remember the neighbor had said that we
00:42:53
have a situation here where we get a summary of his report of that night and it would be nice to have the full report
00:43:01
because the neighbor states that he had heard some popping noises thought something was a noise was coming from
00:43:07
the roof he went outside to investigate and that's when he saw the door propped open along with a
00:43:13
fire okay well here's here's a little bit of an issue with that what time did they enter the building could could we
00:43:21
could we have had them narrow that down during this confession because that seems to me to be an important part of
00:43:27
it because it it may not line up with what the neighbor is saying well I right which I understand all that but at the
00:43:34
end of the day this confession doesn't mean [ __ ] to me on the idea that this all this information was force-fed to
00:43:42
them and if you don't believe that uh one of the things is when they're talking about oh well then then I put a
00:43:49
gun to this girl's head right M and uh then the detective goes behind I can't remember which one it was it Michael
00:43:56
Michael he goes behind Michael's head and puts a freaking gun to his head yeah and and so then the then the detective
00:44:03
is on records saying well I didn't put a gun to his head I put my finger on his head no no you you you showed the
00:44:10
suspect a gun you then put something on the back of his head I've seen the video
00:44:16
footage it looks like he put a freaking gun on his head yeah and not only that He Walks Behind Michael to do so so so
00:44:23
Michael may not have known even if it was n't a gun you would assume it would be a gun you know right and I understand
00:44:30
that the community is outraged and that they want answers and all that stuff but
00:44:34
you are making up a bunch of malarkey right and uh and so then you know just to fast forward we can't charge two of
00:44:43
them because we don't have confessions and we don't have any forensic evidence linking these individuals to the crime
00:44:50
and maybe part of that is due to the arson but now we're going to put these two men on trial the other two are just
00:44:56
going to be let go yeah so yeah quick breakdown of that is we have Robert who confessed Michael who confessed okay so
00:45:03
they're in a whole heap of trouble we have Maurice does not confess to anything he's he's originally charged
00:45:10
however they could not get an actual indictment they couldn't get anybody to bring it to court because of a few
00:45:15
things he didn't confess and on top of that the gun that he was was found on his person 8 days after the crime did
00:45:22
not match the ballistic test so he's he's released because of that and never fully tried for for this crime now we
00:45:29
have Forest now he's in the same boat he did not confess to the crime and the thing that's going to get him off was
00:45:36
remember he way back in the day back in 1991 8 days after the crime after they pick him up and they're talking to him
00:45:45
he actually hooked him they hooked him up to a polygraph which he passed on that day this would be one of the
00:45:51
reasons that the original investigators would let him go but this would also be a reason that they couldn't try him for
00:45:58
this 8 years later well and another thing that I find really interesting is as they're going through this process
00:46:05
you you got detective Jones and you got detective Huckabee saying hey we we question these guys we know what's up
00:46:13
these guys shouldn't be looked at why the hell are you guys bringing them to trial right and and they and then they
00:46:19
see you know then obviously they get to see the footage of their interrogation and realize this is uh you know
00:46:26
just just watch it it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that this this is awful detective work so Robert
00:46:34
and Michael would go forward and they would be charged with these crimes now what takes place in their trial is uh
00:46:41
Robert they basically use Michael's statement his confession against Robert and they use Robert's confession against
00:46:50
Michael and they're tried separately however not neither of those guys are called to the stand in those
00:46:57
trials so what takes place is you have Robert who is sentenced to death and it's later commuted to life because they
00:47:05
they decide that you know what he was a teenager when the crime was committed and you can't you know you can't charge
00:47:11
a um uh a child and sentence them to death now with with Michael he's sentenced to life in
00:47:19
prison what ends up happening is in 2006 these convictions are overturned because
00:47:26
you you have we have the right to address our people that accuse us of stuff and because neither of these guys
00:47:34
were called to the stand they weren't able to cross-examine what they had stated therefore you have to overturn
00:47:41
these charges all right so 8 days after these crimes are committed that these teenage
00:47:47
boys are called in 8 years later they are questioned again then they go on trial they are put away sentenced to
00:47:57
life in prison or death penalty which is then overturned and then several years of being in jail they are released based
00:48:05
off of yeah they're not fully released what they do is they they they hold them because they're going to try them again
00:48:14
right and now we're going to do it the right way is what we're going to do well they're being held for quite some time
00:48:21
yeah of course they don't make it it's just like with Adon Sayad right mhm you know everybody got so excited right
00:48:29
that that you know he's going to get an actual trial and I think you know the True Crime Community uh whether or not
00:48:36
you think he's innocent or guilty everybody agrees that the trial was ridiculous right right and the evidence
00:48:43
they had against this kid was ridiculous questionable yeah very questionable and
00:48:47
so now we have a situation where he's just sitting mhm right he's sitting and waiting right basically he's still in
00:48:53
prison the whole time you know you know which is ridiculous and the same thing's
00:48:57
Happening Here Yeah and not only that you have the right to a speedy trial and these guys have already been in prison
00:49:03
for quite some time I'm sure they would like to be out you know while they wait for their new trial right but during
00:49:09
this holding time what do we have we get we get a little forensic evidence we get
00:49:14
some DNA well yeah this all kind of comes to a close all the about the same time because eventually the judge comes
00:49:22
at the prosecutor and says look you've got to put together case against these guys and you got to do it soon we're not
00:49:28
just going to hold them forever while you wait to try them and they were ready to take and I I'm going to get the names
00:49:34
wrong or or the order wrong but they were ready to go forward on the trial with one of the suspects I believe it
00:49:40
was Robert right and then with the other one they weren't ready M and so that was
00:49:46
the thing was well if you guys aren't ready we'll screw you right you know if you're not ready then you need to
00:49:50
release this guy and at the same time like we said forensic comes up and then they take uh DNA test yeah they they
00:49:57
have DNA technology that was not available back to to them back in 1991 Now using this technology they they
00:50:05
have DNA and this is male DNA obviously and they are able to determine that the DNA that they found in Amy does not
00:50:15
match that of Robert now we have that makes a big problem with both of their confessions because they both said that
00:50:21
Robert raped Amy um furthermore this DNA does not match any of the four right and
00:50:28
this becomes a big problem cu the only you know so the confession we know are wrong we know that they they pushed him
00:50:35
into that you know they pushed Robert to claim that he raped the girl which you know I think um would be a very
00:50:42
difficult thing to admit to doing um but nonetheless you know that that part of the story doesn't line up right but now
00:50:53
on top of that we got five people people well yeah this is this is the prosecutor
00:50:58
pivoting and saying okay well we can roll with that new evidence right right yeah instead of going hey let's try to
00:51:03
find the truth hey let's just make up this you know fictitious person you we we have you know in this case we have
00:51:10
pretend rape and we have fictitious people and now you there was no mention in 1991 of of a fifth person police
00:51:20
never there was never a fifth person then all of a sudden now there's a fifth person these guys are still guilty these
00:51:26
guys are still guilty there's just a fifth person we never heard of M I mean this is just ridiculous so what then
00:51:34
happens is they're released yeah in in 2009 uh they are released and um rightfully so and the case does not die
00:51:45
there I mean it does not end there because what would end up coming out later would be that we would have the
00:51:52
attorneys the two defense attorneys they come out and they say you know what there is evidence that there is a second
00:52:00
and a possible third male DNA that was found at the scene right and we had always we had always suspected that more
00:52:08
than one of the girls was actually sexually assaulted right and the that's what the defense attorneys are saying
00:52:14
now the prosecutor and law enforcement have never outwardly stated that they've always stuck to there's been one set of
00:52:21
DNA that did not match any of the four guys therefore there must have been a fifth guy there yeah but once they do
00:52:26
the DNA testing they have to present that evidence to the defense teams well and on top of that these def these
00:52:32
defense attorneys are saying not only did this second and possible third DNA that was found not you know it didn't
00:52:40
match these two guys it didn't match any of the four right so now how many people
00:52:44
are you going to start claiming were were there committing this crime and now and right and now we have two
00:52:49
individuals that were arrested and spent time in jail and they can go after um restitution yeah they could go after
00:52:56
restitution the the the issue here though is the state of Texas has a clause basically stating that just to be
00:53:04
released from prison or to have an to have a conviction overturned does not mean that you are do restitution you
00:53:13
have to actually be proven innocent which is going to be very hard to do especially when you have these false
00:53:18
confessions that are still lingering and you have a public and a law enforcement
00:53:23
and a prosecutor that still think that these confessions are valid right but you took the chance on doing the DNA
00:53:29
test and it didn't match right the the glove don't fit you must have quit right um so I think that's the proof that's
00:53:39
the proof that you're innocent who cares about the false confession because not only did we have these two false
00:53:44
confessions we had what any you know 50 well 50 to 60 reported I mean so it's it's just basically you
00:53:53
know it's it makes our system seem like such a joke and I'm sure there's people listening in other countries just going
00:54:00
what the hell is wrong with the America's well we have law enforcement down there that still want to try these
00:54:05
guys for for this crime which is well and that's the other thing is the when these guys get out of prison right they
00:54:11
say this ain't over because 10 years from now they might come knocking at our door and and that's kind of why they're
00:54:19
like actually moving forward with you know trying to prove that they're innocent so we don't have to deal with
00:54:24
this anym more one of the one of the people that they suspected is actually dead now he's passed away this very
00:54:31
interesting story so in 2010 this is Maurice Pierce remember he was the one that they thought was The Mastermind of
00:54:38
this whole crime that organized the whole thing and in December of 2010 he's pulled over by a Austin police officer
00:54:47
and and well two police officers I apologize now his family would claim that that because he was in imprisoned
00:54:56
and let's say imprisoned because he was held for quite some time while they were
00:54:59
trying to bring him him to trial even though they ultimately did not um he's stating you know that they have he has
00:55:07
some kind of anxiety and all kinds of issues from having been what he believes is harassed by the police right and um
00:55:15
there's a situation here where he's pulled over and this this traffic stop does not go well for anybody he freaks
00:55:23
out and he he takes off on foot and eventually one of the officers catches up to him and
00:55:31
now we've got a fight going and during the course of this fight Maurice pulled a knife off of the officer and he
00:55:39
stabbed the officer in the neck the officer then shot Maurice which don't yeah don't bring a knife to a gunfight
00:55:46
well he didn't even bring the knife first of all well don't take the guy's knife that has a gun but there's all
00:55:52
there's all kinds of bad problems here the the than thankfully the officer survived and I don't lay any fault on
00:55:58
the officer I I believe he he has to defend himself and I think he did the right thing the only problem is would
00:56:05
Maurice have had these issues had he not lived this type of Life had he not gone
00:56:11
down yeah but you know what came first the chicken or the egg I mean what we do know was he was carrying around a gun in
00:56:17
a mall right when he was a kid when he was a kid not when he was not on the tra traffic stop right but what I'm saying
00:56:23
is like it's you know he was kind of doing this [ __ ] way before you know so the more of the story don't do
00:56:29
[ __ ] and you won't have a [ __ ] life yeah he put himself In Harm's Way okay so we have three of the four still
00:56:36
alive and like we've talked about before we had these 50 to 60 confessions so uh
00:56:42
what we do want to bring up is that we had a very odd confession by a guy that we already talked about in this case
00:56:49
yeah and one of those is from Kenneth McDuff now he was the broomstick killer he was the one that we said was possibly
00:56:56
in the area at the time of the crime M he would have been very capable of this crime because he killed many many women
00:57:04
and he did all of that in the state of Texas yeah and he sometimes worked with other indiv individuals yeah and one
00:57:10
thing that he did that that that is kind of interesting here right he never admits to anything right he never
00:57:17
confesses to any of his crimes he's they had to bring him to trial for every one
00:57:22
of these crimes and he's convicted of them and it's not until leading up to his his execution that he starts talking
00:57:31
to police now this is just within days or weeks of his execution now he's executed November 17th 1998 M during
00:57:40
this time around right around this time there's an anonymous source that comes forward that tells an Austin TV station
00:57:47
this is kvu TV station that McDuff confessed to the yogurt shop murder murders okay and
00:57:57
but they also go on to say that the investigators are having a problem with this because he got certain key details
00:58:04
wrong about this crime right but it's also years and years I seven years later now let's keep in mind though and a guy
00:58:11
that did multiple murders he was asked by the original investigators he was questioned back in '92 by the original
00:58:19
Jones yeah and and he actually tells them now now at this point he hasn't really confessed to anything right but
00:58:25
he tells the two of them had I done that murder I would have confessed to it why
00:58:29
because I would have been proud of it right you know that's this is a kind of a hole that we're dealing with here
00:58:34
right now here's where I have a big problem with the whole Kenneth McDuff thing right his name first of all it's
00:58:41
an anonymous source tells a TV station right right sounds a little [ __ ] it's very fishy first of all we know
00:58:47
from doing this show for so long and from the people listening to the show for so long TV stations newspapers sucks
00:58:55
they make things up sometimes J you know it would be very easy to say you know we
00:59:00
cannot we cannot tell you our source but someone came forward and stated that he
00:59:04
confessed to these crimes I mean that would be big news that would sell papers that would get people to T tune into
00:59:09
your TV station the other problem that I have with this crime is but leading up to his
00:59:16
execution he ends up admitting to everything he ends up leading them to bodies that they hadn't found yet right
00:59:23
why wouldn't he just confess to this one as well he he he he stood to gain nothing or lose Nothing by confessing to
00:59:30
this well it sounds like he did confess to it though no he he didn't law enforcement would come out and actively
00:59:37
say he did not confess to this it was only the media that stated that McDuff had actually confessed to the yogurt
00:59:43
shop murders it's simply put they have DNA test his DNA yeah well you have you have the um the head of the Texas
00:59:54
Department of Justice his name is Glenn Castleberry he actually says in a press conference old Castleberry he says when
01:00:03
he's asked did Kenneth McDuff confess to the yogurt shop murders he says no he did not I've never heard that from
01:00:10
anyone that McDuff said anything no reliable source exactly look the the maybe he didn't confess to it
01:00:18
because of their ages you know you have two 17year olds a 15-year-old and a 13-year-old I mean maybe that's one of
01:00:25
the reasons why he didn't confess again you have DNA test his DNA he he had been
01:00:30
convicted of killing teenagers before right I understand he was convicted of it but what I'm saying is
01:00:36
maybe that's one of the reasons he I I would have to go back and look at all his confessions to different cases you
01:00:42
know what I mean so like did he con did he confess oh I did kill this 30-year-old woman but did he you know so
01:00:49
which which crimes did he commit that he that he confessed to and what were those
01:00:54
ages of those victims and maybe he's just not going to confess to uh the crimes against teenagers a couple of
01:01:01
thoughts on McDuff you know yesterday you and I were talking off Mike and you had stated you know when we went through
01:01:07
the description of the of the man that was seen in the army fatigue jacket right that was standing in line and he
01:01:14
ultimately just or orders a soda and he's acting weird right um that description did match you know we talked
01:01:21
about how it it vaguely matched Kenneth McDuff the issue is it matched Kenneth McDuff
01:01:27
if McDuff were about 20 years younger you know the he he is a white man he does have the pointy nose he has the
01:01:34
clear deep voice clean shaven with dark hair you know he matches all no Scruff the only problem is McDuff is about 63
01:01:42
and a half 64 and and when I so he's about 4 in taller than what Croft described the man in the army fatigue
01:01:51
jacket as so that's an issue he's also about 20 years older than and I don't think that you would have mistaken his
01:01:58
age because at the time that McDuff was out and running around Not only was he killing women but he was also drinking
01:02:05
heavily and smoking crack so I imagine that he probably after serving after serving almost 20 years in prison having
01:02:13
a crack addiction I'm guessing he he does not look like a young 45 you know what I mean and on top of that he's
01:02:21
balding in the front and balding in the back by this time so I don't you would mistake him for no party in the front no
01:02:27
party in the back no party at all with Kenneth McDuff yeah the other problem I have with him being the person that
01:02:33
committed this crime it he his thing is he would have extended periods of rape and torture on
01:02:43
his victims and what I mean by that is every one of his victims he abducted them from one location and took them
01:02:51
with him somewhere spent a good amount of time with them before he killed them MH my issue with this crime is Kenneth
01:03:00
McDuff I don't think would have had the ability to walk away from these victims I don't think he would have been able to
01:03:08
kill them on site and leave them there I think he would have seen this as an opportunity to take four girls with him
01:03:15
someplace else and do you know his whatever he does yeah which I see your theory I think the the problem is um
01:03:24
when you take in you know when you take over this uh yogurt shop that maybe there was something that happened uh
01:03:32
where he had to change his plans it's all I'm saying is that you know uh these parents deserve some
01:03:40
answers uh the victims deserve uh justice and and and they wouldn't get it if it was McDuff I mean the just me the
01:03:49
Justice would already be done but at least we'd have some closure so and and I I don't know tons about DNA so it's
01:03:56
maybe it's an issue where they don't want to test it too much because then eventually it goes away but uh I I think
01:04:03
he's somebody that they I think they should at least test well and it's a little unclear here too because we we've
01:04:10
had these very general statements that come out regarding this case because we have two people what even though I don't
01:04:16
think it's likely that Kenneth McDuff did this crime and as well as I don't think that it's likely that the fast
01:04:22
food killer did this crime and one point of that being that that he never raped any of his other victims uh
01:04:29
there was there was rape that happened in this situation I'm not saying he's above it or that he's not capable of it
01:04:34
it just doesn't seem to fit what the two of them did time and time again right the problem here though that I have is
01:04:41
the immediate question goes well did they did they test the DNA against McDuff or against the fast food killer
01:04:48
and we get these very general statements from people very close to the case investigators authors
01:04:55
media people right basically what their statement is is that they've tested this
01:04:59
DNA against hundreds of suspects so anybody that they thought could have been involved in this crime has been
01:05:05
tested well that's a very blanketed statement I would love to hear someone just outright say Kenneth McDuff we
01:05:11
tested it against his it didn't match right you know uh Reed the fast food killer we tested it against his and
01:05:17
there is no match yeah I think with Reed there there doesn't seem to be as many connections
01:05:25
now we have a public and we have a law enforcement that is still hung up on these four guys they still want to find
01:05:31
a way to charge them we have the original investigators well it's very much like like we said West Memphis 3
01:05:38
there's a innocent side for West Memphis 3 there's a guilty side same thing with
01:05:42
the Austin 4 we have the original investigators and we have attorneys and people close the case that are saying
01:05:49
you know what if if you want to solve this thing M it's very solvable because we have DNA and maybe at some point that
01:05:57
this hits on some computer somewhere else in the country or maybe even in the great state of Texas and we figure out
01:06:02
who did this that way but in time if we if we sit around and wait for that we're
01:06:07
doing nothing productive in the in the process so what these investigators original investigators and attorneys
01:06:13
people close to the case are saying the way to solve this case is to go back and
01:06:17
review what you know throw those confessions out go back and review the evidence and see where it takes you well
01:06:25
we have a big chunk of evidence right here that points to who committed this crime now we talked about police
01:06:33
interviewing the customers that came in that day so we have an issue here though
01:06:38
because I don't know how with it being 1991 and they're not being surveillance you know I don't know how they they
01:06:46
interviewed all of these people they must have did a a a public call to action and say you know if you were here
01:06:53
on this day come in so we can talk to you now they can check certain sales to verify if people were there or not and
01:07:00
the thing here is though they have two people that that they never speak to two people that are unidentified and that's
01:07:07
it for that entire day and who are those two guys those are the two guys that the
01:07:11
married couple said that they saw still in the store just minutes before closing
01:07:17
time mhm the two weirdos without yogurt yeah they're sitting in a booth and they're drinking cans of soda mm M so we
01:07:24
have all kinds of issues here the first being that the law enforcement has never
01:07:29
publicly laid out the description of these two men they've left it very vague which I have a problem with it's 25
01:07:37
years later let's let's release that description if if that married couple gave you a good description let's
01:07:43
release it why did those guys not come forward okay and first of all I want to throw in another thing here we have that
01:07:50
that other unidentified man that was in the Army jacket that was seen just around 10:00 that night he had ordered a
01:07:57
soda as well now we get a description of him from that former police officer officer Croft now one could one could
01:08:06
assume that if you have two guys later that are claimed to be the only two that were not identified yet you have this
01:08:12
guy in the Army jacket that earlier was in the store and he's not been identified well he must have been one of
01:08:18
those two men would be what I would surmise he doesn't have to be he could have been sent in first to case the
01:08:25
place and then two other guys are sent in later and they're kind of observing everything but they're going to be the
01:08:31
ones to take over you open up the back door and then the Army the Army Savage guy that just goes takes a pee uh well
01:08:40
what I mean he comes through because what we do have evidence of and and this would be another thing that I think law
01:08:45
enforcement has to come out with mhm it's do you have DNA from two people or do you have DNA for three people you're
01:08:52
exactly right and and I agree with that statement but but here's where here's where I arrive at the conclusion that
01:08:57
the man in the Army jacket is one of the two men that was seen right at closing time and that being that we have
01:09:04
statements from law enforcement saying that there were only two unidentified customers for that day yet we have two
01:09:12
separate stories taking place one with two guys one with one guy so that would be three unidentified customers for that
01:09:19
day what they're stating is there's two so I'm arriving at the conclusion that the army fatigue jacket guy is one of
01:09:25
those people seen sitting at the booth drinking a can of soda right before closing time mhm the other thing that
01:09:32
you and I have discussed too is what is the motive here well the motive becomes very important when you cannot determine
01:09:38
what actually took place right we we we both agree that we think the motive here
01:09:43
was rape MH is that correct yeah I think it was sexual yeah we we don't think that this the motive was robbery why
01:09:49
because of the small amount of money two they never broke into the office and and
01:09:53
and three they could have just taken the money and left had everything gone their
01:09:57
way now one would argue that it was a robbery gone wrong I get the argument however what I'm stating here is that I
01:10:04
see a situation where you have two teenage girls closing a store on a Friday night all right they they claimed
01:10:11
that it was very important to go back and talk to every customer from that day I get that but what I'm getting at is I
01:10:17
wonder if they talked to the customers from the previous Friday if if the in fact the motive was rape somebody knew
01:10:25
that that store was being operated by two teenage girls that were unattended by anybody else they they see this is
01:10:33
the opportunity yeah but if they didn't question anybody on other days that attended the yogurt shop uh that
01:10:39
information is long gone and those Witnesses are long gone and if they did come forward how reliable would they be
01:10:46
that's correct that's correct the but the thing here is I'm going to stick on motive for a while okay the other issue
01:10:52
is if if the motive was in fact rape well then there was a murder that was used to cover up this rape and
01:10:59
furthermore a fire that was set to cover up the rape and the murders now what we
01:11:03
do know one bit of evidence that we do know is that the lighter fluid that was used to set the fire was not present in
01:11:10
that store until this robbery took place therefore whoever did this crime brought
01:11:15
the accelerant into the store with them right this seems a little pre-planned to
01:11:20
me I wouldn't bring lighter fluid to a robber well that's why there's a lot of speculation in the the City of Austin
01:11:27
that for some reason that this was some kind of insurance fraud or or or some kind of Scandal like that yeah and I've
01:11:36
I've heard those arguments the thing that that I have a problem with on those is that why stick around and do the rape
01:11:43
then if that's if that's the actual case you know I mean because there's some sick individuals yes I I get that
01:11:49
there's plenty of sick individuals but but a job is a job you see what I'm saying it it would make more sense to me
01:11:55
no that's it's called a crime not a job but crime they're hired to commit this crime and it would make more sense to me
01:12:03
to get in there do the job and leave rather than to spend amount of time in the crime scene yeah and and normally I
01:12:11
like to go down those you know conspiracy rabbit holes this just seems Captain conspiracy captain conspir for
01:12:18
the last time people I was I was just trying to be nice to Alex Jones and say I was fans of the captain doesn't like I
01:12:25
really do not like Alex Jones I just watched a couple sometimes I'm just glad that we got to bring up Captain
01:12:31
conspiracy for a second because sometimes yes I go down a couple rabbit holes and I watch his videos I do
01:12:37
believe he has an agenda I do not like that agenda I think a lot of the stuff he brings up is complete Malarkey hor
01:12:44
[ __ ] Alex Jones bad jib bad jib I do not like his jib I I I'm just saying that
01:12:50
overall I don't think he's like some horrible person and deserves to die or anything I think he has kids and and
01:12:58
he's trying to make a living and and I think he's he's his agenda is money and all this other [ __ ] you know he says
01:13:06
a bunch of [ __ ] for money anyways what the captain's trying to say here is that the insurance scheme the insurance
01:13:12
conspiracy is far-fetched at best right it's farfetched like a lot of Alex Jones's ideas yeah and so it that would
01:13:20
be a whole it take us a whole another day or two to explain that whole conspiracy to you so we we don't believe
01:13:26
in it and we don't need to go through why all right go on yeah back to my rant so I think here all I'm trying to say
01:13:33
right I just want to go into the short quick theory of it right the two guys that were seen in the shop just before
01:13:39
closing I think they were sitting at the booth I don't think anybody ever re-entered the building afterwards I
01:13:45
think that they one of them got up locked the front door the other one approached the register if you look at a
01:13:51
diagram of the actual crime scene they were sitting in the booth that was closest to the register at the crime
01:13:58
scene photos that are shown later that booth that table is the only table that sits there with an empty napkin
01:14:05
dispenser right they we we said that the the women the couple had stated that they had saw the girls refilling the
01:14:12
napkin dispensers right the only one that wasn't filled was the one at this table the only one that didn't have a
01:14:18
chair put on top of the table was this table as well I think they got up and they took control of the situation I
01:14:25
think they were targeting the two teenage girls that were there I think the motive was sexual I think that
01:14:31
unfortunately the other two younger victims just happened to be there that night that was a variable that they had
01:14:36
not planned on I do think that the army fatigue jacket guy did go back to the restrooms at some point because that
01:14:42
area is blocked off from the rest of the store he wanted to double check that there was actually nobody back there
01:14:47
there wasn't a male manager or additional staff back there that night they wanted to carry out what what they
01:14:53
were going to do I also think that the what kept throwing me off was this back door situation okay because in the
01:15:00
confession of these guys they state that they had left the back door open and came in later and police and
01:15:06
firefighters find this back door open the thing here is what I was able to figure out last night is that the the
01:15:13
building did have a sprinkler system I think that this back door was just basically left open to let that fire
01:15:20
burn as long as it possibly could to burn off as much evidence as possible before that sprinkler system would kick
01:15:26
on and maybe possibly put out the fire and possibly just the way they left as well yeah it could have just been Happ
01:15:33
stance we're going to leave here and and and just you know leave it open it makes
01:15:38
some sense yeah now one one thing here Captain I'll throw a whole little conspiracy since you like them so much
01:15:43
right yeah all right so we have the neighbor the neighbor statement I would love to hear what that full statement is
01:15:50
or read that full statement because I have some problems with that statement this guy says he never hears any screams
01:15:57
he says he hears popping noises and he goes outside to investigate and he sees the door open and that's when he sees
01:16:03
the fire now I want to know how long it was from the time that he said he heard the popping noises to the time that he
01:16:11
went outside and saw the fire because we know that it took some time for this event to take place if he went out
01:16:18
immediately and saw the fire that when then that story is complete Malarkey that would make no sense because then he
01:16:25
would he would have seen The Killers leaving the building fleeing the building which he did not say that he
01:16:31
saw anybody here's a little thing here uh I hope that they tested the DNA of that store owner next door okay I think
01:16:40
you're reaching there but uh yeah I'm sure I think at the end of the day they have this DNA and any possible suspects
01:16:48
instead of trying to get people to falsely confess M how about you just test that DNA yeah that's really the
01:16:54
only good thing in this entire story here is that they have DNA I think they'll catch this person or persons
01:17:00
eventually well hopefully I I believe this family and um and the victims like I said deserve justice and and deserve
01:17:07
some answers all right wrapping up we have our recommended reading for this week it is Wolf Boys by Dan Slater you
01:17:13
can pick that up by going to our website this is the true story of a couple teenagers that join the Zetas which is
01:17:19
one of the worst most brutal Mexican drug cartels out there you have a a story about a good natured teenager that
01:17:26
turns into a feared assassin so that's wolf Boys by Dan Slater go to True Crime garage.com click on the recommended page
01:17:33
and check that out you can purchase that along with anything else through the Amazon banner and follow us on social
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it's starting to blow up but uh the Instagram bet I won and now we did a double or nothing so if you're not on
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Instagram not following us it's a good way to see kind of the characters of each case we kind of try to post a bunch
01:18:01
of pictures of each case uh you know different crime scene details and stuff like that so you kind of get a visual
01:18:08
idea of what's going on in these cases so it's not just our nasy drones that's right all right thank you all for
01:18:13
listening and thank you Captain we will see everybody back here in the garage next week and until then be good be kind
01:18:20
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