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2023 [Music] welcome to True Crime garage wherever you are whatever you are doing thanks
00:01:45
for listening I'm your host Nick and with me as always as a man that tells me you should always go to other people's
00:01:51
funerals otherwise they won't come to yours he is the captain and sometimes I don't even know the bloke it's good to
00:01:58
be seen it's good to see see you thanks for listening thanks for telling a friend tonight we are drinking Secret
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Stairs by Trillium Brewing Company garage grade 4 and a/4 bottle caps out of five Secret Stairs is trilliums
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which I love and this wonderful beer was brought to us by these good folks right
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here first up we have have Ally and Stacy q and Parts Unknown next we have Sarah and beautiful Cleveland
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today all right Captain everybody gather around grab a chair grab a beer let's talk some true
00:03:32
[Music] crime during the trial of Kathleen Peterson's death and the attempted prosecution of her husband Michael
00:03:53
Peterson the prosecution would call into question Elizabeth ratliff's death now on February 18th 20
00:04:00
2003 Elizabeth ratliff's two daughters Margaret and Martha now Michael Peterson's legal Wards gave the Durham
00:04:08
District Attorney's Office permission to exume their mother's body from her Texas
00:04:13
grave at first they were reluctant to allow this but they say they want to clear Michael Peterson's name they were
00:04:20
two and one years old at the time that Elizabeth died Elizabeth Ratliff was found dead November 27th 1985 she was 43
00:04:30
years old when Elizabeth's husband died Michael Peterson would come over to visit her every evening after dinner
00:04:38
Peterson and Friends maintained that their friendship was purely platonic often he would help her with
00:04:45
the dishes or read to ratliff's two young daughters before returning home Elizabeth Ratliff was found tilted
00:04:52
sideways at the bottom of a wooden staircase inside her home German officials concluded at the time that
00:04:58
Elizabeth la Ratliff died of an apparent stroke and a criminal investigation was
00:05:04
never conducted reports that she was suffering severe persistent headaches in the weeks leading up to her death were
00:05:11
also known the coroner determined that the hemorrhaging resulted in immediate death followed by Ratliff falling down
00:05:19
the stairs after collapsing the Petersons had dinner with Elizabeth Ratliff and her daughters and Michael
00:05:28
Peterson had stayed that night to help Ratliff put the kids to bed before going home mhm the children's Nanny Barbara
00:05:37
discovered Elizabeth's body when she arrived the next morning at the home yeah roughly about 11: a.m. Michael
00:05:44
Peterson was the last known person to see her alive now before Michael Peterson's trial the Durham North
00:05:51
Carolina court ordered the Exum of Elizabeth ratas embalmed body buried in Texas for a second autopsy
00:06:00
uh the body was then transported from Texas to Durham the Durham medical examiner found sufficient evidence to
00:06:08
drawn from the results of the second autopsy along with new witness statements describing the scene to
00:06:15
overturn the earlier findings and list Elizabeth ratliff's cause of death as a homicide State medical examiners report
00:06:25
states that Elizabeth Ratliff died of blunt force trauma to the Head the autopsy reported several lacerations and
00:06:33
fractures to the skull now the prosecution declined to accuse Michael Peterson of Elizabeth ratliff's death
00:06:43
but introduced the death into the trial as an incident giving Michael Peterson the idea of how to fake Kathleen
00:06:54
Peterson's accident now Regina green an old family friend of Michael Peterson's pointed out in the staircase miniseries
00:07:05
how much Elizabeth Ratliff and Peterson's wife looked alike so let me get this straight they do one autopsy at
00:07:13
the time of her death they say that she had a stroke then she fell down the stairs mhm that would probably be the
00:07:20
cause her falling down the stairs would be the cause of the trauma to the Head then they dig her up they do a new exam
00:07:29
and then they say there's blunt force trauma and that is the reason why she died yes and then on top of that now we
00:07:36
have a a friend saying isn't it strange how much she looked like his wife yes which wife the wife at
00:07:45
the time I believe that she was talking about Kathleen Peterson who he's later being accused of killing mhm and what's
00:07:53
interesting to me there is I saw I'm not going to lie to you man I saw similarities actually to the point
00:08:01
somebody put on one website a a side by side picture of the two and I didn't know in advance that I was going to be
00:08:08
looking at a sidebyside picture of two different people I almost thought it was just Kathleen Peterson at two different
00:08:16
points in her life maybe with a slightly different hairstyle or you know at one event dressed otherwise you know all
00:08:24
white people look the same so well it's a problem and so the thing is to me they
00:08:32
in those two pictures that I saw they could pass as sisters right very very much like one another now regarding what
00:08:42
does it mean though I don't know that it means I don't know that it means anything but the thing is here's here's
00:08:48
the interesting thing that I find here is this is kind of a reversal of what the defense would do so the defense all
00:08:56
along in this trial is let letting the prosecution point out to you something that they say is suspicious and when
00:09:05
they present it to you on the surface it appears to be just that suspicious then
00:09:10
when the defense comes in gives you some more information questions some of that
00:09:16
suspicious Behavior or suspicious evidence then you're left going well it doesn't seem so suspicious at all they
00:09:23
basically question everything they're throwing everything at the wall the defense to see what s sticks to see if
00:09:31
any of the jury or all of the jury can go you know what we have plenty of reason to doubt this man's
00:09:37
guilt here we have the prosecution doing the opposite you know they're they're you fighting fire with fire essentially
00:09:45
they're stating look we have this woman that died and he was she was very close to Michael Peterson died almost in the
00:09:53
same way and we're going to exume her body he's the last person to see her he's the last person to see her she's
00:10:00
found at the bottom of a staircase and we're going to exume her body and then we're going to tell you that there were
00:10:06
so many similarities in these two that kind of they're not saying this directly but what the seed that they are planting
00:10:14
in all of these people in my opinion to see if the tree grows is that well if you can believe that he killed one of
00:10:21
them then maybe you have to believe that he killed both of them yeah the tricky thing here is I believe the initial
00:10:28
autopsy found that Ratcliffe died in the morning so where he would have saw her at night
00:10:36
it would have been probably 11:00 p.m. before he left that they believe that she actually died in the morning M and
00:10:42
he would have an alibi at the time and that would The Alibi would be his current wife at that time well I tell
00:10:50
you what man watching the staircase the first time and I do have to um point out
00:10:58
something here it I don't remember when but a while back we did um some we recommended some
00:11:05
docu uh docu series some true crime documentaries to watch to our audience and we did come Under Fire a little bit
00:11:14
because we didn't mention the staircase now it well the time I haven't watched it so you hadn't watched it and at the
00:11:22
time for me I watched it when it came out on HBO the first time I believe it was HBO and it was so many years before
00:11:31
that we put that list together I didn't I wouldn't say I forgot about it but I think I forgot how good it was how good
00:11:38
the um documentary was and so it didn't make my list for those reasons but I do recall when they
00:11:46
brought up this whole Elizabeth Ratcliffe thing when I watched it the first time and they're like we have two
00:11:52
women close to this individual that died in almost the same manner 16 years apart
00:11:59
well [ __ ] that did it for me Captain well the documentary is called the staircase now we have two women that
00:12:04
died in the staircase so yeah first of all I should get a championship belt because you know we only have a week to
00:12:15
work on these cases I think I put out um Wednesday's show put it out last Wednesday went home had lunch started
00:12:26
binging the staircase I was done with the staircase by Thursday MH I mean that's like a record
00:12:35
I should get a championship belt for a guy that can sit on the couch and watch 14 hours of a true crime documentary and
00:12:45
I was all by myself I'm going to start taking applications for people that want to watch documentaries with me well like
00:12:52
I said the first time I watched it I thought for me that was like all right that TI me over the edge this guy's
00:12:57
guilty okay at first I was like yes this guy he was the last person to see the one lady she's dead on a staircase he's
00:13:07
the last person to see his wife she's dead on a staircase yeah not good the problem again that I
00:13:16
have with it is based off the evidence of the first case one she had severe not just kind of headaches she had severe
00:13:25
headaches she was going to go see a specialist or see a specialist again yeah I think because of this was that
00:13:32
scheduled for that week or it was scheduled for very shortly before she died and and the right and the initial
00:13:39
autopsy which the second autopsy they would not have the brain right right so they could not see
00:13:46
the hammering so you can tell me all you want about uh fractures or brain bruising or whatever you want to say but
00:13:54
you don't have all the information and so the first one saw severe brain swelling which could also cause brain
00:14:02
bruising which heck for all you the fractures probably came from falling down the steps but the thing that I have
00:14:11
a hard time with is when there there was no rig mortis therefore meaning that when everybody it wasn't first of all
00:14:18
Michael Peterson didn't find her somebody else found her the nanny founder he didn't call 911 and say oh my
00:14:24
God it's not the same scenario right the nan Nanny founder he came over to help everybody else was helping there was a
00:14:31
bunch of people there a bunch of eyewitnesses and they moved the body and there was no rig of
00:14:38
Morse and so uh and again then if you're going to you're a writer you're a creative person you're a
00:14:49
known liar if you really wanted to kill your wife are you going to do so in the same
00:14:55
manner right that you possibly killed somebody before okay well but again that goes back to
00:15:02
the whole thought for me of premeditation right so if your argument as the state's case would be that he in
00:15:10
a fit of rage during the course of an argument lost his Scruples and killed his wife Kathleen Peterson you would
00:15:19
also have to argue that if you believe that Elizabeth Ratliff in 1985 was as Beat to Death as well that that would be
00:15:27
a similar circumstance where he lost it he attacked her and beat her to death both of those situations do not imply
00:15:36
premeditation both of those imply that it was a spur of the moment attack it was Heat of the Moment so
00:15:45
again but the but the other issue here though is if we have somebody that was quote unquote Beat to Death that has
00:15:53
fractures brain bruising and you're going to tell me that this individual it's it's not like he's a a yeah he's a
00:16:01
rider he's not a huge man but in both cases you should see skull F fractures you should see brain bruising
00:16:13
you do not see that in both cases and also in the first case with rackliffe they think that she actually fell from
00:16:21
higher up on the steps right so if she falls higher up on the steps there's more chances that
00:16:27
she's going to have uh fractures in her skull because of the fall and and then in um Kathleen's case
00:16:35
falling not as far down so therefore you want to have the fractures so I guess the thing that's lost on me because the
00:16:43
prosecution didn't they weren't able to point this out because again they're not
00:16:47
going to accuse Michael Peterson of Elizabeth ratcliff's death but the thing that's lost on me is is what are you
00:16:54
what are you trying to tell me that this means are you trying to tell me that it
00:16:58
happened once so and he did it and therefore he's capable okay I get that but don't try to tell me that it
00:17:05
happened once it was not premeditated then he kills his second wife it's not premeditated and that that means he knew
00:17:12
how to do it exactly this way because he didn't plan to kill the first person this way right you know so I guess that
00:17:18
portion is lost on me the interesting thing here though Captain I believe that they an attempt to try to tie these
00:17:25
together and to point out that Michael Peterson if you believe he killed one then you must believe he killed both m
00:17:34
is that they tried to point out I think it was 17 points of similarity between the two
00:17:42
incidents I would argue that if you can find 17 things that were the same you could find a minimum of 17 things that
00:17:50
were different right if not many many more it wasn't his wife the the two I think the two is it wasn't his house
00:17:59
right he didn't call 911 he didn't have any evidence of blood on him one case has fractures one doesn't one has brain
00:18:08
bruising one doesn't one has brain hemorrhaging one doesn't one the person that falls down the steps has a history
00:18:16
or a believed um uh physical condition condition one doesn't but one we believe is intoxicated and
00:18:28
also probably and the the other thing too is if you look at it in one case we have blood some kind
00:18:37
of blood evidence outside of the house one where we don't really know if we have any blood evidence other than in
00:18:44
the staircase mhm so I think it's when we say eyewitness statements uh regarding the scene had
00:18:52
changed as well in Elizabeth rat ratcliff's death or the account of what could have happened M really all we have
00:19:00
is we have one person who claims to have seen Michael Peterson quote unquote fleeing the scene that night well first
00:19:09
of all uh you would you would have seen him leaving mhm can you can you imply his intentions of and in the manner that
00:19:18
he's leaving what maybe he's in a hurry to get home from any number of reasons so that and then the similarities the 17
00:19:26
similarities which again I think for every similarity you could point out a difference if not a big difference right
00:19:32
and the motive would be that his friend had some money and that therefore he would assume that the money would have
00:19:39
been left to him uh he probably knew at some point that if something did happen to her he was going to become the
00:19:47
guardian of her children but you got to be pretty sick to be like I'm going to murder you then I'm going to take your
00:19:56
money and I'm going to to raise your kids yeah that's it's just a stretch well and these girls grew up to love him
00:20:06
it's not like they grew up in there always this Shadow of Doubt that oh he killed our mother you know there's I
00:20:12
mean you got to be a pretty big psychopath to not a psychopath that wouldn't be the correct term but you get
00:20:21
you got to be pretty nuts to be able to kill somebody raise their kids and loving
00:20:29
home and and have them be very intelligent be very kind respectful be upstanding
00:20:37
citizens well I had somebody tell me that because he adopted the two girls that is proof to them that he didn't
00:20:45
kill their mother I can see that side of the coin the this the opposite nothing right the opposite side of the coin
00:20:53
which I would actually present is maybe he did kill their mother and and him taking care of the children is a sign of
00:21:01
remorse that he felt bad for he did something in a split second he can't take it back but what he can do is make
00:21:09
sure that these kids are raised in a loving home but what I do point out again is we don't have these daughters
00:21:15
going yeah he was a violent father right you know we don't have any of that that
00:21:20
could have happened behind closed doors we don't know but we we don't have anybody saying that we don't have any
00:21:24
friends saying that we don't family MERS saying that great guy he's a great father mhm and and there's evidence of
00:21:31
that in the documentary just the way hea he interacts with his kids more so and spoiler alert more so before he
00:21:41
goes to jail right so um I think afterwards I think he's definitely different but obviously he's older he
00:21:51
spent time in prison he's slowed down which is obvious and you know what I think you
00:21:57
are 100% spoton regarding this incident of Elizabeth ratcliff's death and then Kathleen Peterson's death is the medical
00:22:08
examiner the first autopsy and then 16 is that right 16 or roughly 17 or 18 years later the
00:22:17
second autopsy takes place on Elizabeth Ratliff right and so what you are spot on in saying is that you are not
00:22:25
examining the same set of evidence 16 17 years later right in my opinion and I think that I well you're not just
00:22:35
as a fact and I have a hard time believing that you can completely reverse everything that was believed to
00:22:41
have been found in the first autopsy 16 17 years later when you're not looking at the same same piece of evidence hold
00:22:50
on let me go through my notes real quick looks like the examiner was FY Malik oh oh that's why that's why they
00:23:01
reversed it old FY Malik it was an olar no so now we're at the point are we at the point now that he
00:23:11
gets tried and he is found guilty well yeah real quick I want to kind of put my my final stamp on my final thought
00:23:19
regarding Elizabeth Ratcliffe okay where at first when I was watching the staircase many years ago when it first
00:23:26
came out I jumped off of the couch and I went that's it he did it he's guilty he's guilty I got him POS I'm done you
00:23:35
sex son of a [ __ ] and now years later having looked at it under a different light under a different microscope and
00:23:42
putting together information for this week's case I didn't realize back then that it was ruled that she had a stroke
00:23:49
and so I look at it now and I go I I can't say with 100% certainty that he didn't kill her but I can say
00:23:57
with about 99% I feel pretty strong that he didn't kill Elizabeth Ratcliffe and I
00:24:03
think it has no bearing on if or not he killed Kathleen Peterson I agree I also think that it comes down to there's
00:24:11
evidence of a stroke or they believe there was a stroke Heming of the brain there is a lot of skull fractures I
00:24:18
believe that happened from her falling down the steps and I think the lack of riam mortis and the the idea that there
00:24:25
was so many eyewitnesses that found her body saw how he was reacting and then taking her daughters and raising her um
00:24:35
again as no bearing on whether he killed his wife or not well after more than three and a half months of trial Captain
00:24:41
the jury would finally decide the fate of Michael Peterson now among the jurors we had an accountant a correctional
00:24:48
officer two retail salese a Shipping Coordinator two computer operation Specialists and a telecommunications
00:24:56
analyst and three nurses so two people study computer okay they originally took a vote to see where
00:25:03
everyone stood and it turned out that they were pretty much divided four guilty four people stating he's guilty
00:25:10
three stating not guilty and five undecided they went over the case again after hours of debate they kept coming
00:25:19
back to one single exhibit the autopsy photos of the back of Kathleen Peterson's head a juror contacted after
00:25:28
the trial noted that the jury dismissed the idea of the blowpoke as the murder Weapon by and large the jurors were
00:25:36
swayed by the amount of blood Kathleen lost and the number of lacerations which indicated to them it could not have been
00:25:45
an accident so on October 10th 2003 a Durham County jury found Michael Peterson guilty of the murder of
00:25:54
Kathleen Peterson he was sentenced to life and prison without the possibility of parole denial of parole requires
00:26:02
premeditation despite the jury accepting the murder was a quote spur of the- moment crime they also found it was
00:26:10
premeditated one juror explained premeditated meant not only planning hours or days ahead but could also mean
00:26:17
planning in seconds in the seconds before committing a spur of the moment [Music]
00:26:26
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Cellular when Freedom calls we're here to answer call us at 1888 Freedom Angie's List is now Angie and
00:28:08
we've heard a lot of theories about why I thought it was an Eco move fewer worse
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less paper no it was so you could say it faster no it's to be more iconic must be
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get started at angie.com that's a ngi or download the app [Music] today all right cheers mates cheers to
00:28:54
you Captain hot in the garage some switching over to proper 12 whiskey well I tell you what so we this is the point
00:29:04
in the show where we have to kind of speed drink whiskey we have to speed through a couple of things because this
00:29:10
part is necessary to report but there's a lot of minutia there's a lot of dry boring stuff that takes place over the
00:29:18
course of several years to get to the final result so we're going to give you the short of it the quick we're going to
00:29:25
give you the quick and dirty version okay we're going to give the quickie so remember the prosecution had a blood
00:29:31
spatter expert who gave testimony against Michael Peterson at his trial well that guy was Dwayne dver and Dever
00:29:40
Dever he is a Dever well dver was fired from the SBI don't be a Dever in January
00:29:48
of 2011 after an independent audit of the agency found he had falsely represented
00:29:56
evidence in in 34 cases dver as we stated testified in the 2003 Michael Peterson trial so this is going to cause
00:30:07
a big problem for the prosecution and for the conviction of Michael Peterson yeah and there was actually jury members
00:30:15
that came forward saying a lot of their turning from a not- guilty to guilty was
00:30:20
based off of this guy's testimony correct so we have all these Court proceedings that take place that are
00:30:28
going to challenge the Court's ruling the jury's ruling that he should be convicted and sent to life in prison
00:30:35
without the possibility of parole they're basically asking for it to be overturned for the conviction to be
00:30:42
overturned in turn the judge is going to State well we probably should just have
00:30:49
a new trial right we should we could get rid of this evidence we could reexamine
00:30:53
what can be allowed at the new trial and we should just go from there so like with any situation or most
00:31:02
situations they're going to allow Michael Peterson to be released from Durham County Jail on a $300,000 bail
00:31:09
and placed under house house arrest with a tracking anklet in while he waits for
00:31:15
this new trial to take place right so again there's more fighting of whether there should be a trial can we just get
00:31:22
this dismissed or no there should be a new trial on November 14th 20 16 a new trial was scheduled to begin on May 8th
00:31:31
of 2017 however news reports in February of 2017 indicated that a resolution had
00:31:39
been negotiated by Peterson's defense and the Durham County DA yeah and let's let's back this up a little bit I I just
00:31:47
want to they had a bunch of hearings uh whether to not let certain things in and
00:31:53
basically Peterson got his ass handed to him on the last hearing and and so they didn't want to
00:32:01
try to make a deal with the da or didn't think it was time to ask for a deal but oddly the da came after him and
00:32:11
said hey we'd like to offer you this deal so then then it was up to him to take that deal so what took place then
00:32:18
was in February of 2017 Michael Peterson entered an offered plea a guilty plea whereby the defendant asserts his
00:32:27
innocent M innocence but admits that sufficient evidence exists to convict him of the offense this was a uh plea to
00:32:37
involuntary I'm sorry voluntary manslaughter of Kathleen Peterson the judge sentenced him to a maximum of 86
00:32:45
86 months in prison with credit for time served so what does this mean this means
00:32:52
that Michael says yes I'm guilty yes yes the time that I served already is warranted
00:33:01
meaning I can't sue the state for putting me in jail it's also but he's also stating I didn't do this MH so it's
00:33:11
off the Record stating I didn't do this yes I but I well no I think it's on the record I mean they they they they make
00:33:18
the deal but they get to make a statement and so I mean I I just you know this is a way
00:33:27
this is difficult because I don't think Michael Peterson wanted to take this deal uh but at the same time he's
00:33:33
getting older so he's going to go through another 2 and 1 half year trial MH uh I don't think it would have been
00:33:39
as long of a trial as the last one mhm but so that becomes difficult and he and then your whole family has supported you
00:33:47
and I I believe one of his daughters actually said if we take this deal it's almost like we did all this for nothing
00:33:56
right and and I believe that's how you would feel I think on on his standpoint too I think
00:34:03
the other thing you have to because you wonder the psyche of why they're taking this deal I think one he knew
00:34:11
that if he's innocent that Injustice was done before and but if but whether or not
00:34:20
he's innocent or guilty he still might go to jail for the second time and he'd go away for life
00:34:27
and he would you know so he's been in jail for all these years he gets out I think there there becomes a bigger fear
00:34:33
of ever wanting to go back in well he's what 70 years old now roughly well and also the money he doesn't have as much
00:34:40
money so if any where is he going to get this money to pay for Good attorneys and
00:34:46
his attorney that he paid pretty good money the first time his last name is Rudolph yeah he's getting to the point
00:34:52
where he's like I can try to help you but you don't have the financial means to pay me not only that I think at this
00:34:59
point Rudolph was in a different city um so it probably got difficult for him to
00:35:04
travel in and out cost more money right and if you're not getting paid what you should get paid I totally understand I
00:35:10
think you look I'll just say I watched the documentary when I heard that there was
00:35:17
two women that were dead similar circumstances I was like okay well that seems fishy and then I'm
00:35:26
watching the trial and yes the documentary is from the defense standpoint so you get to see more of
00:35:32
that but when it came time to read the verdict the initial verdict and they said guilty I was like
00:35:40
what and now this is a pretty popular documentary but I just never seen it I mean I was shocked like not saying that
00:35:48
I think that he's innocent or guilty what I'm stating is I didn't think the state proved their point but again
00:35:56
you're watching in a documentary from the defense Point there's so many things that are left out of these documentaries
00:36:02
if you're watching something like uh if let's say you're watching a making a murder and you can say that somebody's
00:36:13
guilty or innocent based on just that documentary it's a documentary there a lot of it is informative but a lot of it
00:36:23
is skewed is skewed and it's just like it's just like when people say to me uh when they talk about the Adon sad case
00:36:30
whether they say he's guilty or innocent and I go what information have you looked up I listen to serial it doesn't
00:36:39
start there that's just one person's perception of that that's just one telling of the case so I think in this
00:36:49
case it becomes difficult because they show so much of the defense that you start almost siding with him not saying
00:36:55
that he's innocent or guilty but you you're saying that they're putting on a good enough defense that they should say
00:37:01
not guilty I agree I absolutely agree I don't think that the prosecution put together that great of a case actually
00:37:09
when I looked at the evidence and the the evidence that they presented in the light that they presented it I found it
00:37:16
difficult for me to un I understand their theory that there's an argument I think there are things that point to
00:37:24
that being very plausible and that at some point he killed her the problem is where you can't push me over the top to
00:37:32
saying that he's guilty is they're a little unclear and a little weird about the actual cause of death and they're
00:37:42
100% weird and uncertain of the time of death and that for me didn't put together that great of a case I think
00:37:49
that if they had not dropped the ball on those items they could have probably persuaded me to state that he's guilt
00:37:57
Beyond A Reasonable Doubt but but the thing is I think what they relied on and it's got to be obvious to
00:38:06
so many people they think or thought and rightfully so they were successful in this that look if we put together a case
00:38:15
that states that we think that he killed her and this is why and this is how it happened we don't have to prove that so
00:38:21
much as that we can prove he's bisexual he was going out outside of the marriage
00:38:27
whether she knew or not um we can prove that somebody close to him died in a similar way 17 years ago and we have a
00:38:35
blood spatter expert who's going to say this was a homicide everything that I see at the crime scene tells me she was
00:38:43
beat to death and I think that they knew that that was those three things were too they were too big of Boulders for
00:38:52
for the jury to get over and it was going to completely leave them back to a guilty verdict at some point yeah I
00:38:59
think simply their thought was we just have to prove that this was not an accident and then they'll find him
00:39:07
guilty right so let's get to a theory so again I just watched this last week if you haven't watched it you got to watch
00:39:16
it I thought it was pretty good uh the new episodes they added to it I everybody said oh they're a little
00:39:23
lackluster you get to kind of see what happen that you know he takes the plea deal and that's it that's the end of it
00:39:31
um but they're kind of wasted episodes I really think they could have condensed it down more and um but I thought it was
00:39:40
a pretty good documentary but then uh we were talking on the phone last week and
00:39:44
he said well what about the ow Theory yeah and I was like wait a second can we can't talk about you because I
00:39:51
haven't I haven't done any research on it so get let's get into the ow Theory well like I said I have a problem
00:39:58
stating that Michael Peterson's innocent um I can't say that 100% And but I also
00:40:04
can't say that he's guilty 100% in my mind but then you add the AL Theory into this and it it throws everything it
00:40:13
throws everything for me because it's interesting it's interesting so the theory is that Kathleen Peterson's death
00:40:19
um was caused by an attack by an ow outside this actually was a theory that one of their neighbors came up with yeah
00:40:28
so that she was attacked by an owl outside of her home in the front of the house remember there was a blood droplet
00:40:35
or two found on the walkway and then we have a small blood smear on the front door M this is her blood so what was
00:40:42
pointed out the AL theory was raised by Durham attorney T Lawrence Pard he's a neighbor of the Petersons who was not
00:40:49
involved in the case but had been following the details of the case he approached the police police suggesting
00:40:57
that an owl might have been responsible after reading the North Carolina State Bureau of
00:41:03
Investigation evidence list and finding a feather listed on the evidence list now Peterson's attorneys had determined
00:41:14
that the SBI crime lab report listed a microscopic owl feather and a wooden sliver from a tree limb entangled in a
00:41:23
clump of hair that had been pulled out of by The Roots found clutched in Kathleen's left hand a reexamination of
00:41:33
the hair in September of 2008 had found two more microscopic owl feathers okay so we have these microscopic owl
00:41:41
feathers now you know let's so we're not spending three hours on this one it could be from an owl the other thing
00:41:50
that possibly is they if they have certain types of feather pillows that this could be the reason why they would
00:41:57
find a microscopic fiber of a owl feather in her hair correct so but you're talking
00:42:04
about the the branch in her hand so there was an ow feather and um a a basically like a little Splinter of a
00:42:14
piece of wood that would have come from a tree outside of the home and this was found these items were found in the hair
00:42:22
that had been pulled out from the root of her scalp that was later found in her hand
00:42:28
clutched in her hand she was holding her hair she was holding portions of her hair okay so
00:42:35
one the idea at first when I hear this idea I think this is ridiculous because I'm
00:42:42
starting to think that she's walking into her house she gets into the staircase and then she's attacked by an
00:42:48
owl and that's what I thought it was and my idea was then wouldn't the owl after
00:42:55
the owl attacked her wouldn't the owl leave more evidence that the owl was in the house but this theory is is actually
00:43:02
that she was attacked by an now out front out front away from Michael Peterson if this went down the way that
00:43:09
they think she would have been in front of the house he would have been backed by the pool and he we've already
00:43:15
determined the the size of their yard their property and their home it was proven that at certain points from that
00:43:21
property and from that home if you're in one area you can't hear somebody screaming in another area yeah and and
00:43:28
again now let's let's put this in perspective when people see the Lasher okay when people see the lacerations on
00:43:35
her head right they start assuming that those were made by an now now that's kind of what the AL theory is but that's
00:43:44
where you'd be a dummy because if you actually saw lacerations that were put onto female's heads male's heads any
00:43:52
kind of laceration that was made by an owl her lacerations were Ines long mhm these are centim these are tiny
00:44:02
lacerations that are made by an ow now there's zero deaths by Owl attacks a year zero right so but here's where you
00:44:12
have to put this in perspective again I thought the AL theory was ridiculous she's
00:44:18
outside she has attacked by an owl a typical attack a couple small lacerations on her face that nobody can
00:44:27
explain not any examiner can explain the little tiny lacerations on her forehead you can't explain the the
00:44:37
feather other than maybe a pillow and you can't explain the little Splinter of wood that's in her hair so Al attacks
00:44:45
her leaves a couple marks she's disoriented she's drunk she's on volume she then decides I got to get in the
00:44:55
house I leave the blood outside and on the door I need I'm going to go upstairs right when you go to go upstairs you're
00:45:04
bleed in a little bit but you're still intoxicated and then you fall mhm and then the Falls that were determined by
00:45:13
the defense eyewitness or not eyewitness but the expert witness um with the biomechanics then all that stuff makes
00:45:22
sense MH and then it also makes sense why she's holding piece of her hair so that's to me would make the ow
00:45:31
the owl Theory Mak sense yeah yeah the theory the way that that I understand it is that look it's a barred owl um and
00:45:41
apparently these attacks I've been told are not uncommon in that area and that there were these types of ows located on
00:45:51
their property or near their property there were many people in the area that had stated that they had some kind of
00:45:58
encounter with a Bard owl before some of them saying they had even been attacked
00:46:04
now under this Theory Kathleen's attack by this owl would be a little more violent than traditional um meaning that
00:46:12
they think that if she somehow encountered this owl that the owl came became entangled in her hair and that
00:46:21
she would have reached up naturally reached up behind her to try to defend her self and at which the owl could not
00:46:28
get away is not deliberately clawing her but basically clawing the back of her head and the the contusions or the cuts
00:46:37
on the front of her head on her forehead and I believe just below her eye would have been the beak of the owl so picture
00:46:47
the talons the feet of the owl on the back of the head she's reaching up toward the ow and then the owl is
00:46:53
bending forward and trying to defend it s pecking her in the front of the the face right and so therefore at some
00:47:00
point they break up you know the owl gets away she goes running inside naturally leaving a little bit of blood
00:47:06
along the way and then the injury is so great that she loses her footing or Falls backwards on the stairs as you had
00:47:16
said you know what's weird about this though Captain for me is that I feel like this while on the surface seem like
00:47:26
a crazy Theory mhm I don't think I can discredit it 100% it it it seems plausible seems something that that's
00:47:35
possible well the the thing in this case is you have to explain things you have to explain why there's blood droplets on
00:47:41
the front porch why there's blood on the front door you have to explain that and
00:47:47
this Theory explains that it does and it also explains why she has a chunk of her
00:47:52
hair in her hand right because if that was entangled I but again I think you would
00:48:01
find more evidence of an owl if she was really that wrapped up and that entangled because we still the the other
00:48:10
thing too is we still have those impact marks that's science you have to explain
00:48:16
those impact marks on the frame the doorframe so well she could have still hit Those
00:48:24
portions right as she fell as a result of of an owl attack but where I have an issue with this Theory not to say that
00:48:33
it didn't happen the problem with it is there wasn't there wasn't really a chance to
00:48:40
prove this Theory or disprove this theory meaning what I mean by that is it wasn't until years later that somebody
00:48:46
came up with this Theory the defense never came up with this Theory they thought like you said that maybe that
00:48:51
feather came from a a down comforter or a down pillow well and actually the his new defense team actually looked into
00:48:59
this Theory and they thought there's just too many holes in holes in the theory for us to even use it as a
00:49:05
defense okay so and that's you know yes we're into True Crime we know a lot of stuff but you think his lawyers
00:49:14
would be the ones to tell you hey there's too many holes in this this Theory so we couldn't use it well the
00:49:20
other thing too even if it didn't come from a pillow or a comforter or something like that there was already in
00:49:25
inside the home what about you know the the prosecution doesn't get a chance to disprove this Theory either because it
00:49:31
wasn't presented and what I mean by that is had this been a theory the night of when they're collecting evidence the
00:49:38
night of and the morning after well they could have potentially combed Michael Peterson's hair and said well we found
00:49:45
the same feathers microscopic Fe Fe feathers in his hair well where did these come from maybe they came from the
00:49:51
backs of the chairs that they were sitting on outside but but again and the the reason why I do like this theory
00:49:59
is it explains the blood outside the house but it also explains these little lacerations that nobody's no expert
00:50:08
witness whether it's coming from the defense or the prosecution can explain these little tiny
00:50:13
lacerations so that's one reason that makes me go maybe this is not such a dumb idea I'll give you the little tiny
00:50:21
lacerations the other thing though is the blood out front of the house and the blood on the doorway could have also
00:50:27
come from a blood soaked Michael Peterson who just attacked his wife from behind and beat her to death and decided
00:50:33
to run out front for some reason or or play devil the door for some reason he goes in and finds his wife and he calls
00:50:42
911 and he's waiting around a lot of people argue too oh when he calls 911 he doesn't sound like he's by her body and
00:50:50
most people that call 911 are by the the person's body that had the accident not
00:50:56
always true I think it becomes fight or flight he's also drunk maybe he had to get out of the room oh my God I can't
00:51:02
take this I got to get out of the room whether he is the cause of her injuries or not the cause of his her
00:51:10
injuries he is covered in blood he at some point takes off his shoes is it possible because now he's not his feet
00:51:18
don't have any blood is it possible that he walks outside to see if the ambulance
00:51:22
is there yet and leaves a little blood on I agree with that so whether he was guilty or not that would explain the
00:51:30
evidence outside yes and I agree with you 100% I mean you as much as you want to stay there and tend to the victim and
00:51:39
try to help her along at the same point you're going to be wondering hey if these people show up to potentially save
00:51:45
her life at the last minute I better make sure the front door is unlocked right or or and open or yeah or you're
00:51:54
panicking and and you just run to the front door and to see if they're there right so I mean that's not that
00:52:00
farfetched all right did he do it Captain boom hit you hit you hard with that didn't I did he do it it's tough
00:52:06
isn't it it's I mean this is actually probably you think it's toughest the one of the toughest did he do it how many
00:52:16
times have you changed your mind roughly in the past never okay but that's cuz that's pretty solid but that's because
00:52:23
I'm never made up my mind oh so it's I don't think there was enough evidence to convict him
00:52:32
but I you know um I I don't know and and I think the things are one that they show how some of those lacerations would
00:52:44
have came onto her head based off the biomechanics so I believe that but I can't figure out did she accidentally
00:52:52
fall which she had enough value and alcohol in her system that she could have fell mhm and that would be that
00:53:00
would be a plausible explanation and people say well there's a lot of blood well you're a little bit older your
00:53:06
Skin's a little bit thinner especially on your scalp you bleed a lot M especially if you have that high of
00:53:15
alcohol levels you're going to have thinner blood I mean I had I got a tatto one time after days after drinking mhm
00:53:23
and I mean the guy who told me two or three times I might have to stop I mean you are bleeding all over the place and
00:53:29
see he was like just some people bleed differently so is it possible that she hit her head and then it caused all that
00:53:34
blood which caused her to slip multiple times maybe and the other thing though too is uh they have all these other
00:53:41
theories that okay well the weapon wasn't the poker the weapon was his hands and he actually beat her head
00:53:48
against the stairs okay I would argue then well maybe you get lacerations from beating her head against the the the
00:53:55
stairs but where's the brain bruising where's the swelling right where's the you know it's that's where it becomes so
00:54:04
odd how do you get these marks you know what I mean like how do you get these marks without getting any
00:54:12
skull fracture that was the single hardest thing for me to get over to that was this and Still Remains I I shouldn't say
00:54:21
get over it's something that just doesn't make any sense to me where I think it might make some sense
00:54:27
to me is as I pointed out before the jury didn't believe that the blowpoke was the murder weapon I don't believe
00:54:35
that the blowpoke was the murder weapon I don't see how somebody could make those marks on the scalp using that item
00:54:43
without fractures in the skull so that portion kind of makes sense to me the thing is I'm with you captain in the
00:54:54
sense that if I were sitting on the jury I wouldn't have been able to convict Michael Peterson of the murder of
00:55:01
Kathleen Peterson I think that the defense did a good enough job well based off the documentary based off of what I
00:55:07
saw in the documentary correct um and based off of what I've researched since then now if it all went down as I
00:55:17
believe that it went down like I said sitting on the jury I wouldn't be able to convict him I think there was
00:55:21
reasonable doubt that he didn't commit this murder now I'm not saying that he's innocent now well mind you too if you
00:55:28
were on the jury you didn't see his initial eyebrows because they were trimmed well you might have convicted
00:55:35
him with his initial eyebrows now gun to my head I have to make it decision hold
00:55:41
on let me get one out all right okay make sure locked and loaded take the safety off yeah this is what you do when
00:55:48
you're drinking no don't say that don't say that don't ever touch a gun when you're drink we're going to be all right
00:55:56
serious note don't play with guns don't drink and play with guns all right sorry
00:56:00
gun to my head meaning I have to make a decision right right guilty not guilty mhm I'm
00:56:09
going to go with guilty I I'm going to say Michael Peterson killed his wife and and here's
00:56:16
where I'm going with this this is this is what I believe happened mhm and I'm going to use his words to convict him
00:56:24
and my mind mhm and his words on the um to the documentary uh the staircase documentary when he's recounting that
00:56:34
night he says that around 11:00 we finished watching the movie we went into the kitchen for a while we talked for a
00:56:40
while for a good amount of time we went out to the pool talked for a good amount
00:56:44
of time she goes inside goes to bed I stay outside have a smoke I come inside I find her dead I call 911 we do know
00:56:51
that the 911 call happened at 2:40 241 in the morning morning okay where I have a problem with his
00:56:59
version of the story is at no point does he tell us that she had a phone conversation in his office with her
00:57:10
coworker at 11:08 mhm this was the time that they were supposed to be done with the movie and in the kitchen talking
00:57:16
right and then she's waiting on a very important email now people have pointed out that she never opened that email
00:57:23
that came through at 11:53 that means he killed her before 11:53 I don't believe
00:57:27
that 100% because the meeting was the next day at 10:00 a.m. right she could have just wanted to make sure that that
00:57:33
email came in I'll check it first thing in the morning right but you she might have checked to see if it was there she
00:57:40
could have checked to see if it was there the other thing is I think what happened and I'm using the state's
00:57:46
evidence which I know is slightly flawed but the states evidence was that she would have died of blood loss that would
00:57:53
have taken 90 minutes minutes to 2 hours for her to bleed out MH she was reported
00:58:00
dead she's reported dead by Michael Peterson at 2:46 a.m. in the morning and what I mean
00:58:08
by that is on the first call he repeatedly States she's still breathing on the second call he says she's no
00:58:16
longer breathing he might have thought she was breathing though I'm going by his again I'm going by his words and if
00:58:23
she's coughing up blood or spitting up blood it's going to be pretty obvious that she's breathing she's going to be
00:58:28
breathing heavily too so yeah he by his own words she was breathing at 241 and not breathing at 2:46 if it took 90
00:58:40
minutes to two hours for her to bleed to death I don't feel like there's enough time in his story for her to have fallen
00:58:48
accidentally and bled out for an hour and a half to two hours before he finds her and then calls 91
00:58:55
one yeah um I don't know if the 11:00 stuff makes sense or not the other thing I would really want to
00:59:05
know uh and it never was answered was is he a night owl no pun intended it doesn't matter to me though go ahead no
00:59:15
the reason why is because for a couple to normally married couples go to bed together sometimes
00:59:23
they don't always especially when they're drinking one drinks more than the other they go I'm going to go to bed
00:59:27
they're like hey I'm up I'm up partying but you don't normally stay up that much longer but he's a smoker so is
00:59:36
it possible that they were drinking and then he sat there and smoked and how did
00:59:41
he stay out there for 2 or three hours MH is his timeline wrong he was drinking you know like they they had the
00:59:47
conversation at 11 they go outside let's say they're only outside for a couple uh
00:59:53
30 minutes right mhm she goes I'm going to bed okay good night she has her accident he's out there till 2:30 or
01:00:03
whatever then then things start adding up I don't know if should' be breathing but again I mean we we again
01:00:13
we don't even know if she was breathing or not but by his own words she was breathing yeah but I don't give a [ __ ]
01:00:20
about words I want to get I want evidence you know okay I'm trying to put together my thought and my opinions of
01:00:28
the case if he's guilty or not no no I agree with I I agree with what you're saying what I'm saying is can't the
01:00:34
medical examiner tell us when closer time she di no and that's why I said that they dropped the ball
01:00:41
earlier if you look at the autopsy the original autopsy States time of death 2:40 a.m. question
01:00:48
mark and what I'm stating here is I have to use Michael Peterson's own words and then work that back against some of
01:00:57
the evidence that we have there and the evidence that's stated by the state is it would have taken an hour and a half
01:01:03
to two hours for her to bleed to death he's stating that at 2:41 she's alive and at
01:01:09
2:46 a.m. she's dead meaning that she went inside either at 1:15 if we are to believe his story that she went inside
01:01:19
as late as 1:15 in the morning or as early as 12:4 5 a.m. in the morning and then magically she falls down the steps
01:01:29
he comes in he says about 30 minutes 40 minutes after she went inside he went inside and I understand he could have
01:01:37
his times off a little bit the pro problem though is if in fact the state is right that it took an hour and a half
01:01:44
or two hours for her to bleed to death his story doesn't match up it just doesn't match
01:01:50
up yeah also I think the difficult thing is one one of the things that the fence
01:01:56
said was they looked at all the cases that somebody died from blunt force trauma and there was never a case that
01:02:04
there wasn't skull fractures so what did he use I think the bio um what did I figure out it was biomechanics there we
01:02:16
go the biomechanic expert was correct I think but again how did she fall did did she slip or did she get
01:02:26
pulled down and if you got pulled down hard enough would you possibly pull out some hair MH and then she would grab her
01:02:35
hair and now she has her some hair chunks out of her and if you you didn't ask me before if you put a gun to my
01:02:44
head but if you put a gun to my head I'd have to say he was he was guilty of this
01:02:51
I personally what I think happened here I I don't think think obviously the blowpoke was used to kill Kathleen
01:02:58
Peterson I don't know that he intended to kill her I think that maybe that there was like the state said an
01:03:04
argument that escalated into some kind of physical attack um the result was her her murder and that he caused her death
01:03:13
yeah but but think about this too though if he pulls her hair right or pushes her
01:03:20
whatever to get there's some kind of attack it's more likely that she then moves around more struggles more when
01:03:29
she's down there tries to get back up on her feet mhm it's just more likely than
01:03:36
if she just fell cuz the way the defense tries to make it out is that she just fell she starts bleeding and then she
01:03:44
tries to get help and she tries to stand up she try you know what I mean well I think the problem here really is that I
01:03:51
do think that she fell down the steps and I think that the fall was was not um by way of her being drunk or taking
01:03:59
volume or wearing flip-flops or being attacked by an owl out front of her house I think she was attacked by
01:04:05
Michael Peterson and that caused her to have injuries that caused her to fall as
01:04:10
she hurried up the stairs and then she suffered injuries during the course of that fall which made it very confusing
01:04:18
in the end for all of us to determine was it an attack or was it a fall personally I think that some kind of
01:04:24
argument ensued in the kitchen and I think that if I had to pick a weapon I think it might have been a cork
01:04:32
screw I think that he might have tried to punch her or tried to smack at the back of her head as she was leaving him
01:04:41
defiantly in the course of the argument and he scratched and clawed her with the
01:04:47
cork screw whether it be intentional or not M but that caused some of the lacerations which then she went up up
01:04:54
the stairs fell backwards hit her head again which resulted in the lacerations getting bigger or splitting like they
01:05:01
had [Music] said all right thanks for listening thank you for sharing on social media
01:05:20
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01:05:27
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01:06:02
getting all kinds of great reviews I appreciate those everybody make sure you join us back here in the garage next
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do that