00:00:00
foreign [Music] [Applause] foreign [Music] welcome to True Crime garage wherever
00:00:42
you are whatever you are doing thanks for listening I'm your host Nick and with me as always a man that puts his
00:00:47
pants on two legs at a time he is the captain I think that's supposed to read three legs at a time if you get my drift
00:00:54
it's good to be seen and it's good to see you thanks for listening thanks for telling a friend
00:01:03
this week we are drinking grapefruit double IPA by the hard-working men and women over Claremont craft ales garage
00:01:10
grade four and a half bottle caps out of five this is a double IPA so if you're like me and you like to get all hopped
00:01:16
up well there are plenty of hops in here the grapefruit Smooths it out quite a bit making this a strong but still yet
00:01:23
quite refreshing beer perfect for summertime and grapefruit double IPA was brought to us by this batch of
00:01:29
summertime buddies first up we have Carissa in Milford Connecticut and a big shout out to Holly and Walnut Creek
00:01:36
California next up we give a cheers to Julia and Salome Arizona and a big we like your jib to Abigail and Wheaton
00:01:44
Illinois and cheers to my friends Zach Lauren and Amanda strong strong members of the True Crime garage Army stationed
00:01:51
in Logan Utah and last but not least a big Texas shout out to Terry and Amy and Waco for all things True Crime garage go
00:01:59
to True Crime garage.com check out our blog for case to discussion and check out the store Page to get one of our
00:02:06
many True Crime garage shirts if you'd like to listen to our early episodes episode one to now you can check that
00:02:13
out on the Stitcher app exclusively on the Stitcher app if you'd like to check out our show off the Record it's our
00:02:18
other weekly show where we give updates on other cases we kind of talk about behind the scenes stuff in the garage
00:02:24
you can find that at Stitcher premium.com True Crime garage that's enough of the business everybody gather
00:02:31
around grab a chair grab a beer let's talk some true crime foreign [Applause] [Music]
00:03:06
Joshua Ryan made the following statement during a U.S District Court Hearing in San Diego in 2005.
00:03:16
the first time I met Kevin Cooper I was eight years old and he slipped my throat
00:03:22
he hit me with a hatchet and put a hole in my skull he stabbed me twice which broke my ribs
00:03:29
and collapsed one lung I lived only because I stuck four fingers in my neck to slow the bleeding
00:03:36
but I was too weak to move I laid there for 11 hours looking at my mother who was right beside me
00:03:46
I know now he came through the sliding glass door and attacked my dad first he was lying on the bed and was struck
00:03:54
in the dark without warning with the hatchet and a knife he was hit many times because there was
00:04:02
a lot of blood on the wall and on his side of the bed my mother screamed and Cooper came
00:04:09
around the bed and started hitting her somehow my dad was able to struggle between the bed and the closet but
00:04:17
Cooper bludgeoned my father to death with the knife and Hatchet stabbing him 26 times and axing him 11.
00:04:26
one of the blows severed his finger and it landed in the closet my mother tried to get away but he
00:04:33
caught her at the bottom of the bed and he stabbed her 25 times and acts her seven
00:04:41
all of us kids were drawn to the room by my mom's screams Jessica was killed in the doorway with
00:04:49
five ax blows and 46 stabs I won't say how many times my best friend Chris was stabbed and axed not
00:04:57
because it's not important but because I don't want to hurt his family in any way and they are here
00:05:04
after Cooper killed everyone and thought he had killed me he went over to my sister
00:05:11
and lifted her shirt and Drew things on her stomach with the knife then he walked down the hallway opened
00:05:21
the refrigerator and had a beer I guess killing so many people can make a man thirsty
00:05:29
[Music] Franklin Douglas Ryan grew up on the outskirts of Des Moines Iowa he grew up
00:05:45
to be tall strong and a well-liked man he became a marine and then went on to be an MP a military police officer by
00:05:55
the way he went by the name Doug so we will just call him Doug Peggy and Ryan was born Peggy Ann Howell she got her
00:06:04
first of many horses that she would own in her lifetime when she was just 12 years old horses were her passion and
00:06:11
she would be gifted several horses from her twice divorced mother this is Dr Mary Howell
00:06:18
Peggy was always strong and athletic and she grew up to be five foot eight inches
00:06:23
tall Peggy loved to train horses and enter them in competitions uh this is near her mother's Chiropractic practice
00:06:31
in Pennsylvania not far from Lancaster as a teen she aspired to become a veterinarian but her mother persuaded
00:06:40
her to follow in her footsteps so just like her mother Peggy attended the Palmer School of Chiropractics and
00:06:46
Davenport Iowa she graduated in 1963 and then she went to work for her mother at
00:06:53
the chiropractic clinic that she owned located in Santa Ana three and a half years later Peggy
00:07:01
ventured out on her own opening up her own clinic in Santa Ana and in 1970 Peggy Ann met Doug Ryan at an alumni
00:07:09
reunion at Palmer and not too much later the two were married at a church in Corona del Mar yeah they'd be married
00:07:17
December 20th 1970. eventually the two newlyweds decided to open up their own practice together this is in Olympia
00:07:26
Washington after relocating Peggy bought two horses while it turns out that Olympia was not a great spot for the
00:07:34
couple As far as their Chiropractic business or their equestrian hobby would be concerned it was a great stop along
00:07:42
life's big adventure for their family though because their daughter Jessica Kate Ryan was born in Olympia on
00:07:48
November 9 1972. so their practice is failing at this point the Ryans accepted Peggy's mother's offer to join join her
00:07:59
successful and very lucrative Chiropractic Clinic back in Santa Ana this is in the mid 1973.
00:08:06
so the Ryan's bought a home in Santa Ana this is with a big backyard big enough to hold their two horses and they
00:08:13
continued to purchase more horses now Captain I'm not certain here but I think at some point they got up to like five
00:08:20
or six horses in their backyard that's a lot of horse [ __ ] well the neighbors are
00:08:27
going to start complaining about all these horses about them keeping them in their backyard probably because of the
00:08:32
smell well this would be this would prompt the eventual move to Chino Hills California so they find a Hilltop Ranch
00:08:40
this is directly above Peggy's mother's house in Chino Hills it came on the market Doug and Peggy Ryan sold their
00:08:47
home in Santa Ana and they bought this new house now Peggy noted to friends that the property came with a gorgeous
00:08:53
barn and a huge riding ring the three bedroom two bath house featured a sunken living room and a family room and a
00:09:02
jacuzzi in the patio off of the master bedroom jacuzzi so this secluded area of Chino Hills
00:09:09
that Doug and Peggy Ryan uh moved into with their two-year-old daughter Jessica and their infant son Joshua this
00:09:16
fulfilled a long-held dream for Peggy Ryan joining a small close-knit community this is all the community is
00:09:24
of Arabian horse breeders who operated adjoining or close by ranches so this is horse people moving to be near other
00:09:34
horse people I think they're called centaurs their neighbors referred to their ranches along Old English Road as
00:09:40
the Arabian Horse Center of Southern California from their Hilltop house the Lions looked out over a maze of white
00:09:48
fences and their neighbors ranches and the Ryan Stables were more than a dozen white Arabian show horses the house was
00:09:56
located at 2943 English Place Chino Hills California and unfortunately it was going to be the location of a set of
00:10:04
Horrid murders Saturday June 4th 1983 by now the Ryan's daughter Jessica was 10 years old and
00:10:12
their son Josh was eight years old there were not many boys in this neighborhood
00:10:17
the same age as Josh but there was one boy who had become very good friends with Josh and this is 11 year old Chris
00:10:26
Hughes Chris and Josh had gone trick-or-treating together they were very close Christopher Hughes was almost
00:10:34
five foot tall and he had just completed the fifth grade Christopher was a good student he had
00:10:40
lots of friends he was on the swim team and he had a room full of trophies to prove it he liked Star Wars and on this
00:10:48
Saturday after an invite from his friend Josh He begged his mother that he'd be allowed to stay the night at the Ryan's
00:10:55
family home she agreed but told Christopher to remember that he needed to be home in
00:11:02
time in the morning for church Christopher's mother watched the two boys right away on their bicycles toward
00:11:08
Josh's home now that evening the lions with their guest Christopher they attended a potluck dinner with about a
00:11:16
hundred other equestrian enthusiasts that's hard to say equestrian enthusiasts and their family and their
00:11:24
families at the Chino Hill home of George and Valerie blade this was a pretty big party yeah and again all
00:11:33
horse people it was a BYOB affair they arrived to the gathering with a bottle of pink Chablis
00:11:41
that night at the party the blade son Jace Jason pleaded with his parents to allow him to stay the night as well at
00:11:50
the Ryan's home but he was not allowed to because I guess like their grandmother was in town and visiting
00:11:56
right so around 9 30 p.m the Ryan's and Chris returned to the Ryan split level home after a while the children went to
00:12:05
sleep the boys were sleeping in sleeping bags on the floor in Josh's room and Jessica was in her room a Doug Ryan
00:12:13
watched some television before joining his wife in bed probably about 11 p.m so we have just a real quick recap we have
00:12:22
the father the mother the daughter which is older and then we have the son and then his
00:12:30
friend yeah so the daughter Jessica would be 10 years old right Josh is eight years old and his friend
00:12:37
Christopher is 11. the next morning Christopher's mother Mary Ann Hughes she became concerned because remember
00:12:45
he's supposed to come home so they can go to church in the morning he doesn't come home
00:12:50
so she called the Ryan residence a few times but only got busy signals so shortly after 9 A.M Mrs Hughes went
00:12:59
to the Ryan home she noticed that the barn was closed and it didn't look to her like the horses
00:13:05
had been fed or let out or whatever it is you're supposed to do with horses I I'm not going to pretend to know what
00:13:11
well let's just assume that they need to be fed in the morning I have dogs I feed
00:13:15
them and let them out in the morning so I'm guessing horses are the same uh this
00:13:20
is her account of the situation that the barn looked to have been closed no activity that morning that she could see
00:13:27
she only saw the Ryan's truck at the house they had a station wagon as well but she did not see the station wagon
00:13:36
she knocked on the door several times I there was no answer at about 11 30 a.m Mr Hughes went to the Ryan home to
00:13:45
investigate and Mr Hughes went to the kitchen door looked inside tried the door but it was locked he continued
00:13:52
around the outside of the house until he reached the sliding glass door leading to the Ryan's master bedroom he looked
00:13:58
inside the glass door and he saw the body of his son he also saw the bodies of Doug and Peggy Ryan
00:14:06
and Josh Ryan lying on the floor between his mother and Christopher now apparently
00:14:15
and when this is happening so Mr Hughes is trying to get into this sliding glass door he he can't get into
00:14:23
the door he can see Josh in there and Josh kind of moves he's the only body that he sees move inside and he's trying
00:14:32
to tell Josh I need you to get up and unlock this door yeah but we would later learn Josh has sustained too many
00:14:41
injuries he he can't get up eventually Mr Hughes goes around to another door this is back to the door
00:14:47
that's at the kitchen and he he kicks in the door and then he goes inside and he
00:14:54
finds he finds the bodies of of all five of these people now four of them are dead
00:15:01
including his son and he finds Josh who is very bloodied and very weak so he starts asking or trying to ask Josh hey
00:15:11
who did this but Josh's throat has been slit right so he can't tell him yeah he tries to talk but he he's like only
00:15:20
moving his lips there's nothing coming out Mr Hughes tried to use the phone the telephone in the house to call for help
00:15:28
but the phone did not work so he had to drive to a neighbor's house seeking help
00:15:33
the police arrived and Doug Peggy Chris and Jessica were pronounced dead Josh was found lying on his side his
00:15:43
eyes were open but he was unable to speak or move he was unresponsive Josh was flown by helicopter to Loma
00:15:51
Linda University hospital and thankfully Josh would survive now we're going to go
00:15:58
through the medical examiner's findings this is going to be this will be difficult to hear so some
00:16:04
of you may want to skip forward a few minutes because we're going to turn down the volume of the mics uh well this is
00:16:11
going to be gruesome stuff so Doug Ryan suffered at least 37 separate wounds some inflicted by an ax or Hatchet and
00:16:22
some were stab wounds this is the father Yes five chop wounds to Mr Ryan skull were in a quote tight pattern indicating
00:16:31
his skull was stationary when the blows were delivered the blows appeared to have been administered in Rapid
00:16:37
succession within a second or two as Mr Ryan was kneeling by the side of the bed
00:16:43
one blow administered to Mr Ryan's skull was consistent with being struck by the
00:16:50
blunt side of a hatchet or ax causing a depressed skull fracture where the bone was pushed into his head Mr Orion's
00:16:59
right middle finger was amputated by a chopping blow his his severed finger was found on the floor inside the Ryan's
00:17:06
bedroom closet another chop wound cut clear through the bone of his right forearm one Stab Wound penetrated his
00:17:14
sternum entering his heart one Stab Wound punctured his lung there were slicing injuries to the right side of Mr
00:17:23
Ryan's cheek and before he died Mr Ryan was stabbed on the left side of his neck
00:17:28
severing his carotid artery and cutting his trachea so before we move on real quick what that means is we're seeing
00:17:38
obvious signs of defensive wounds here right so he's attacked presumably they're surprised in the middle of the
00:17:45
night but he is able to at least get up and attempt to defend himself and I say that I believe that these are defensive
00:17:53
wounds because we're seeing a lot several wounds to his hands and his forearms almost as if he's putting them
00:18:00
up in defense of himself now the one thing that I think is important here too is the the wounds to
00:18:08
his skull which they titled as a tight pattern would almost indicate that they are made in Rapid succession by the same
00:18:17
person by the same hand same weapon same individual inflicting these wounds Peggy Ryan suffered 32 separate
00:18:26
identified wounds these wounds were primarily on her head chest and neck areas a series of three chopping wounds
00:18:34
to the right side of Mrs Ryan's head were consistent with having been administered while she was standing
00:18:40
Mrs Ryan had a defensive wound on her right hand Jessica Ryan the daughter suffered 46
00:18:48
separate identified wounds consisting of a combination of chopping and stabbing or incision wounds
00:18:55
Jessica suffered a stab wound to her neck the wound resulted in massive bleeding unconsciousness from this wound
00:19:02
due to Rapid blood loss would have occurred in as little as 30 to 60 seconds and would have been fatal in a
00:19:10
couple of minutes three stab wounds to Jessica's chest were near each other suggesting the
00:19:15
wounds were delivered in Rapid succession the wounds were consistent with having been delivered while Jessica
00:19:21
was in the position in which she was found Jessica suffered a grouping of carving
00:19:27
injuries on her chest most apparently occurred after Jessica had stopped bleeding so after she had already passed
00:19:34
the postmortem yes the injuries were consistent with a an ice pick a nail or an awl having been used to inflict these
00:19:43
injuries these injuries were primarily inflicted while Jessica was in the position in which she was found the
00:19:49
position in which she died okay so a little more information here it looks like she suffered early on in
00:19:59
the attack she suffered a wound that was great enough powerful enough for her to
00:20:03
be knocked unconscious because of the rapid blood loss which she would die from that so a lot
00:20:10
of these wounds that she suffered so we can assume where she suffered these wounds after she was already
00:20:19
passing away as she was dying and she was unconscious so she's we're not going to see as many
00:20:25
defensive wounds on her because she didn't have the opportunity the chance to defend herself right now one thing
00:20:33
that I think is interesting here though Captain is we are seeing the suggestion of a possible third weapon being used
00:20:42
here so some of these injuries and wounds the medical examiner suggesting were produced by a knife and then we
00:20:51
have other wounds that he's suggesting were produced by a hatchet or an ax and then we have wounds to the girl that
00:20:59
suggests that they were they were created by an ice pick or a nail something to that effect but different
00:21:05
from the knife and the hatchet right now Christopher Hughes suffered 25 separate
00:21:12
wounds a chopping wound to his right wrist went through the bone of his forearm almost severing his hand from
00:21:19
his wrist Chris also suffered a chopping injury to his right hand the injuries were
00:21:25
consistent with defensive wounds several of Christopher's wounds were inflicted after the boy had passed
00:21:31
Joshua Ryan the little boy that somehow survived his injuries included including
00:21:37
a hatchet wound to the top of his head a stab wound to his throat and a hatchet wound near his left ear now the coroner
00:21:46
this is Dr root who performed the autopsies believe that the injuries could have been inflicted quickly within
00:21:53
one minute for each of the victims he suspected each victim died within minutes of being attacked our survivor
00:22:01
will be able to report his limited memory of the murders this is a breakdown of Josh's eyewitness report
00:22:09
immediately after his rescue there was a clinical social worker at the hospital that interviewed the boy that afternoon
00:22:17
in the emergency room Josh was unable to speak he pointed at words and numbers on
00:22:24
this chart that were provided to him by the social worker right he's going to use this method to try to tell the
00:22:31
social worker what had happened what he had witnessed during the attack most importantly what he points out is
00:22:38
that three white men were in the house at the time of the attacks well like you said the coroner thinks that these
00:22:45
attacks happen within a minute of each other so that that'd be one individual moving pretty rapidly or suggesting that
00:22:53
there's more than one attacker right so the the social worker says you know I asked Josh how many people were there
00:23:01
and Josh pointed to the number three he said I asked him if there if they were male he pointed to yes yeah now I
00:23:10
don't want to say that you're wrong but I do believe that when they said um how many people were there that he actually
00:23:16
pointed to three and four I mean that's just what I heard he also asked the boy if the men were black and Josh pointed
00:23:26
to the word no so this man added that Josh said that he had seen the men before but did not know
00:23:33
them now let's add this fact in here so we have San Bernardino County Sheriff's deputy this is Irvin Dale Sharp he would
00:23:43
later testify that he interviewed the boy twice on June 5th the same day sharp said that the first interview took place
00:23:51
in the emergency room and lasted about 15 minutes in that interview Josh Josh said that three white men were in the
00:24:00
house when the killings occurred but in a subsequent interview this is an hour later the boy identified
00:24:08
the three men as possibly Hispanic each between 18 and 20 years old possibly driving a low rider Chevrolet Impala and
00:24:18
had been at his house on June 4th sharp later testified that the youth told him the attack on his family took place
00:24:26
between 4 and 5 a.m there is thought that this time frame would not have been consistent with the coroner's finding
00:24:34
well he's eight years old right right and then on top of that he's been he has a head wound
00:24:41
and a severe you know slashing of his throat but I just wonder how much the head wound is causing these inaccuracies
00:24:50
Well here here's the other thing too you know so the coroner's finding the coroner suspects that the attacks likely
00:24:57
took place a couple hours earlier than what Josh is saying he believes the attacks took place three weeks after the
00:25:05
slangs the boy was released from the University Medical Center and left for the East Coast where he was going to be
00:25:15
staying with his uncle now later a custody of Josh would be granted to his grandmother Dr Mary Howell
00:25:23
[Music] foreign we're back cheers well Captain I think we should probably introduce Kevin
00:25:43
Cooper to everybody and you know we have the situation here where we've titled this episode Kevin Cooper and other than
00:25:51
Joshua's statement to the court we've not heard his name yet and this case puts us in a difficult
00:26:00
situation doesn't it Captain because we usually try to title these episodes uh the victim's name because the victims
00:26:09
are often forgotten about in these true crime stories here we have Kevin Cooper who as you
00:26:17
heard Josh's statement he says killed my family but the reason why we title what
00:26:22
Kevin Cooper is there is some question about this man's guilt and what we really wanted to present to
00:26:31
everybody is the facts of the case so everybody can form their own opinion is Kevin Cooper guilty of having killed
00:26:39
this family and after reviewing all of the evidence and after looking at this story you presented this case to me and
00:26:47
I had not heard of this case which I found a little weird because once they started diving into it it seems to be a
00:26:53
fairly popular case uh especially in the California area but after you told me about this case and we're looking into
00:27:00
it you know what kept running through my mind is that this is you know the the famous show making a murderer this this
00:27:09
should have been about Kevin Cooper um and I know I'm not going to uh win a lot of people over with this statement
00:27:16
but looking at this case um I think one could present evidence to look Stephen Avery looks a lot more
00:27:26
guilty to me than Kevin Cooper but okay let's go through let's introduce Kevin Cooper and then we will try to get to
00:27:33
some of the evidence here Captain so Kevin Cooper was adopted as a baby he suffered an abusive and troubled
00:27:40
childhood in Pennsylvania he would run away from home at a very young age later he said that this was to escape beatings
00:27:49
the trouble he got into as a child involved shoplifting and marijuana charges he never graduated from high
00:27:56
school Uh Kevin Cooper really got into trouble this was in Pennsylvania when he stole a car from a teenage girl now
00:28:04
apparently apparently the girl interrupted him while he was committing this um he was committing some form of
00:28:13
residential burglary okay she interrupts him committing this crime he then steals
00:28:19
the car but he he also took the girl with him and Kevin Cooper would later admit forcing the 17 year old girl into
00:28:28
the vehicle now she says that he also hit her he threatened her he threatened to kill her and he that he had raped her
00:28:37
he flatly denies hitting or raping her do we have any evidence of this um I don't know all I have is his
00:28:45
statement where he admits to stealing the car and forcing her into the vehicle I think this is a he said she said
00:28:53
situation I don't think there was a lot of evidence to point either direction and then you have a guy that is willing
00:29:00
to admit to some of the charges uh you know right unfortunately I think probably should have been charged with
00:29:08
kidnapping a minor but regardless of the charges he is going to do time for this
00:29:14
Cooper would also be arrested charged and convicted several times uh these are for theft related offenses he escaped
00:29:22
from custody in Pennsylvania numerous times then he goes to California in California Cooper is arrested charged
00:29:30
and sentenced to state prison for two counts of residential burglary now how old is he at this time
00:29:37
um well this would have been in 1982. and this is all this is in Los Angeles County
00:29:45
Cooper lied about his identity uh his background and his criminal history by using the false name of David Troutman
00:29:54
now on June 1st of 1983 Cooper was transferred to a minimum security portion of the prison in which he was
00:30:02
being housed two days before the murders he escaped on foot from the California Institute for men well so I just want to
00:30:10
get this clear he's actually serving a sentence a four-year sentence but under the name David Troutman
00:30:18
correct yeah that's interesting he lied about his identity and this it would make him appear so he got a
00:30:28
pretty light sentence and that being because of two things he lies about his identity because he's escaped from
00:30:35
prison in Pennsylvania one and he has a lengthy criminal history of of these you
00:30:42
know some most of these are pretty minor charges but he has a lengthy criminal history where he probably would have
00:30:47
faced considerable more amount of time there right and he's he's then shipped off to
00:30:56
this minimum security portion of the prison this is when he escapes from prison and it's just a couple days
00:31:02
before this family is found murdered so when he escapes from prison I mean this is just he just kind of walks through a
00:31:10
field like runs away from a group of people or something do we have much information on this well okay and this
00:31:19
is why I say that this is the case that should have been featured on making a murder not because I'm you know that's
00:31:27
not a spoiler alert where I think that Kevin Cooper is innocent what I mean by that is the problem with
00:31:34
this case and when you try to research this case is it gets presented in some different
00:31:41
lights and it depends on who you're getting your information from because there are some people out there that are
00:31:47
pretty hardcore that Kevin Cooper is innocent there's some other people on the opposite side of the fence that he's
00:31:52
very guilty and then there's some people these are the ones that I don't like to
00:31:58
get any information from because I don't feel that I can trust it there are some
00:32:02
people that I believe that are just so much against the death penalty and because Kevin Cooper would
00:32:08
eventually be on death row for these murders I think that they skew the information a little bit so some people
00:32:16
would have you believe that his escape from this prison is as simple as he finds a hole in the fence he walks up to
00:32:25
it he goes through the hole and walks away peace out yeah uh the hole in the fence
00:32:32
portion seems to be pretty true what doesn't seem to be true is that he just kind of
00:32:40
you know moseyed on down the road and and walked to Chino Hills right the the reality is that he did climb through
00:32:49
this hole in the fence but he goes and he hides out in some like lumber yard and he waits for the sun to go down
00:32:58
because he's going to need to flee after dark he doesn't want to be seen in mind
00:33:02
you he's wearing all of his prison Garb he looks like somebody that just walked out of the prison right
00:33:09
so he's gonna wait till till Sundown and during the cover of Darkness he's going
00:33:17
to go to this China Chino Hills sorry and he finds this vacant house this house is owned by a couple of people uh
00:33:27
Larry lease and these brothers Roger and Kermit Lang own this house now some of the information out there will refer to
00:33:35
this home as an abandoned house this could not be further from the truth this was a home that was being used these men
00:33:44
would use this home this home was completely outfitted and they actually rented it out from time to time so this
00:33:51
was not an abandoned house he happened to find a home that was empty you know had no no people staying in it right and
00:33:58
he decides to stay there and make it his Hideout so we'll refer to it as The Hideout house
00:34:06
because that's kind of what it is he's on the run from the law and he's hiding out at this house while he's there you
00:34:13
know he's doing typical things that you would do throughout your day he's you know using the restroom uh taking a
00:34:19
shower he did say that he slept that night the first night in one of the beds however all of the bedrooms have Windows
00:34:27
he was concerned that somebody would see him through one of the windows so he started sleeping inside the closet of
00:34:36
the bedroom while he was there he was you know he found beer and other things to drink
00:34:42
while he was there he he was smoking cigarettes now the key thing about this house though this house is down the hill
00:34:49
and it's actually nearest to the Ryan house right this is just a 126 yards away now that should give you some idea
00:34:59
of what kind of neighborhood we're dealing with this is the nearest home and it's more than a football field away
00:35:05
yeah but not much more than a football field so Cooper slept in the closet of the bedroom of a bedroom that was
00:35:12
nearest the garage there was a window by a fireplace inside this home and that that window from that window you could
00:35:20
get a very good view of the Ryan home the house had two telephones and Cooper called Yolanda Jackson and
00:35:29
Diane Williams from the house asking them for help these are old friends of his they both decline now the telephone
00:35:37
records would later show that the two calls that two calls were made from the house to the uh Los Angeles area
00:35:47
telephone number of Yolanda Jackson the first call lasted 110 minutes must have been a good conversation this beginning
00:35:56
on June 3rd at 12 17 a.m and the second call lasted four minutes beginning at 2 26 a.m the same morning
00:36:06
two calls were also made from the house to Diane Williams who was in Pittsburgh Pennsylvania the first call lasted three
00:36:13
minutes beginning on June 3rd at 11 46 a.m and the second lasted 34 minutes beginning on June 4th at 7 53 p.m Diane
00:36:24
Williams told Cooper that she did not have any money that she could give him now according to Cooper he decided to
00:36:31
leave the house after this phone call the final call was only an hour or so before the Ryan's and Chris Hughes left
00:36:40
the blade house from that potluck dinner find the party to return to their home okay so there are there's some documents
00:36:51
out there there's websites out there dedicated to this case and a lot of times they spend a lot of time
00:36:57
presenting evidence that that Cooper was staying at the home before the murders I think that's a big waste of
00:37:04
everybody's time he admits to staying at the home before the murder there's no question about that right so we don't
00:37:11
need to pour through that evidence we have enough evidence in these actual murders that we're going to have to pour
00:37:16
through so what you're saying is according to Cooper he was at the house so there is no debating that yeah we we
00:37:23
won't debate that according to his own words he was at this home nearest the murder house
00:37:30
about but that doesn't mean that you were the murderer well correct but according to his own words he was there
00:37:37
and left about eight sometime between eight and eight thirty that night the Lions would have returned to their home
00:37:43
around 9 30 to 10 o'clock that night then going to bed and being attacked and murdered sometime during that night so
00:37:51
question where is Cooper going Cooper says that he had planned all along to go to Mexico
00:37:58
and this might be the truth because we know that Cooper checked into a hotel in Tijuana this is around 4 P.M on Sunday
00:38:07
June 5th 1983 using the false name of Angel Jackson so from Tijuana Cooper made his way to
00:38:16
Ensenada Mexico where on June 9th he met Owen and Angelica handy he introduced himself as Angel Jackson and he asked
00:38:27
them for a job he was going to go work for them on their boat the handys then set sail for San Francisco and Cooper
00:38:34
posing as Angel Jackson went with them during this time handy the Handy's saw Cooper in possession of numerous items
00:38:43
later identified as having been taken from the vacant house nearest the Ryan's home
00:38:49
they stopped at various places along their way to San Francisco Cooper stayed on the boat so when when the handys
00:38:57
would park the boat they would they would get dock the boat I guess you should say yeah they would get off the
00:39:03
boat they would go on Shore they'd probably presumably going out to eat shopping whatever they're doing he does
00:39:09
not get off the boat at any of these stops he's laying low let's say I'm on a boat then they decide to go to Santa
00:39:18
Barbara for like three maybe four days on July 30th 1983 uh Santa Barbara County Sheriff's Department responded to
00:39:28
a call for assistance of an attempted rape on a boat that was docked next to the Handy's boat and Pelican Pelican
00:39:36
Cove the 26 year old female victim reported that a man she identified as Kevin Cooper attempted to rape her at knife
00:39:45
Point Cooper tried to flee when the authorities came to the dock to arrest him the sheriff's observed Cooper throw
00:39:52
an object into the water before he Dove off the Handy's boat swam to a dinghy and started to row for sure the
00:40:01
sheriff's recovered a knife from the water where Cooper attempted his unsuccessful Escape he was arrested so
00:40:08
let's break this down very quickly because if if you pour over every single minute detail we're going to be here for
00:40:15
days so a summary of what's wrong with that of what we've covered well you're saying I smell no you smell fine it's uh
00:40:24
thank you there's not a whole lot of ammo in the garage fridge if you know what I mean all right
00:40:30
so let's break down what we've covered so far four people are murdered in the middle of the night inside the Ryan home
00:40:38
one little boy eight-year-old Josh he survives survives he gives a description of three men all either Caucasian or
00:40:49
maybe Hispanic as being in the home during the murders police would later learn that an escaped
00:40:56
convict Kevin Cooper was hiding out in the home nearest the murder house for two days leading up to the murders he
00:41:03
says he fled to Mexico and law enforcement is going to say yes he fled to Mexico but before he did that he
00:41:09
killed those four people well why did he do that what's his motive well he's an escaped convict he needs to steal money
00:41:16
and their car to get out of Dodge so we know the car was stolen right now there's been
00:41:26
this is this is one thing that you and I have spoke about multiple times on this
00:41:30
show there are so every report I've come across never mentions anything being stolen
00:41:38
from the Ryan home nothing ever mentions you know in fact there's some reports that state outwardly State nothing was
00:41:45
taken from the home we know the car was taken but you and I've like I said we've
00:41:51
talked about this before unless you have a running inventory of everything inside
00:41:57
the home I don't know that we can say with certainty that nothing was stolen from the home that's right I mean if
00:42:03
these if one if the husband or wife came home with five hundred dollars cash in their
00:42:09
purse or pocket that day we wouldn't know that yeah but and also think about how many times you come in the garage
00:42:16
every week and guitars come in and out and instruments coming in and out you probably notice it sometimes but you
00:42:23
couldn't tell me what was different no you exactly and that's what I think I don't think anybody can point out with
00:42:29
100 certainty that nothing was stolen from the home I completely agree with you now what about the car we know the
00:42:36
car was stolen where was the car found the car was eventually found in Long Beach California so if you went Long
00:42:46
Beach California and then on to Tijuana it's a little more than four and a half hours by car from the murder house so
00:42:55
this actually leaves enough time for Cooper to commit the murders drive to Long Beach and then escape to Mexico and
00:43:03
still check into the hotel on June 5th at 4 pm so you're saying there's a chance well we also need to discuss
00:43:11
quickly how the police got on to Cooper because we have a weird situation here Captain don't we we're
00:43:18
this situation they they are looking for Kevin Cooper it's not like he's arrested
00:43:25
for this attempted rape charge and then they back into evidence pointing that he
00:43:31
committed these murders well actually what happened go ahead hold on technically they're looking for David
00:43:36
Troutman looking for Kevin Cooper using the Alias possibly using the Alias of Troutman
00:43:44
the thing here though what's weird is they kind of they find some evidence to back into this thought that Kevin Cooper
00:43:51
is the one that committed these murders and it's it might be considered loosey-goosey but like we talked about
00:43:58
what is a coincidence when we're talking about these cases is it evidence or is a
00:44:03
coincidence right so the situation is this they find a bloody footprint bloody shoe print I should say at the home at
00:44:14
the murder scene this is believed to be from a type of shoe called a pro Ked now at this vacant home nearest the
00:44:25
Ryan's house they find loose tobacco and it's believed that this was roll right brand tobacco
00:44:34
well why is that significant it's significant because this is the type of tobacco that was given out for free to
00:44:42
inmates of the prisons at the time the way that the system was set up back then was this if you had money in your
00:44:49
account you could buy whatever brand of cigarettes you prefer to smoke right but
00:44:55
to keep you got to keep these guys um orderly you know you don't want pure chaos there people killing each other
00:45:01
over cigarettes well maybe we do so what they would do is they would hand out this cheap loose tobacco and you
00:45:09
could roll your own cigarettes well it's believed that Kevin Cooper would often roll his own cigarettes with this roll
00:45:18
right brand of tobacco provided to them for free at the prison so what does that
00:45:23
have to do with the shoe print well the shoe print the pro kids were shoes that were issued to prisoners
00:45:30
so they have these two items that they find one at the crime scene one at the what I've been calling The Hideout house
00:45:38
there's also a question though where's this one footprint found the footprint that I there was there were
00:45:46
several shoe prints that are discussed in this case the one that I'm discussing right now is one that was found on a
00:45:53
sheet inside of the home of the Ryan's home so they have some evidence pointing them to
00:46:02
a possible prisoner or somebody that would have you know would have this free tobacco from a prison would be wearing
00:46:09
shoes that are issued at a prison so their thought is well let's let's check to see if there's any people that have
00:46:15
been recently escaped from prison that's where they come up with this Troutman or
00:46:22
Cooper as their possible suspect so they have this situation where they have they
00:46:28
they think they're looking for the murder and they think they know who the murderer is they find him down uh in
00:46:34
Santa Barbara after this alleged alleged attempted rape a local citizen discovered a hatchet this was on June
00:46:43
5th 1983. on the side of English Road this is the only paved Road leading from the Ryan home out of the immediate area
00:46:54
the hatchet was covered with blood stains uh the head of the hatchet was covered by dried blood and it had human
00:47:01
hairs on it as well some of the hairs were consistent with those of Doug and Josh Ryan
00:47:09
now the Dr Irving root who performed the autopsies concluded that the hatchet could have inflicted The Chopping wounds
00:47:18
suffered by the victims well it's believed that this Hatchet came from The Hideout house
00:47:27
why because like I said those men would rent out this home and we have the previous tenant saying
00:47:35
that look when I lived there and she she moved out of there at the end of May so
00:47:41
literally just like what a couple days before Cooper decides to show up at this house
00:47:47
she says while I lived there there was a hatchet that was inside this home and it
00:47:52
matched the one you know the description matches the one that was found on the side of the road that has the victim's
00:47:57
blood on it right but there's a lot of houses that have a hatchet true and let's just point out let's be clear
00:48:04
this is 1983 let's also point out that the people that they're saying that that hatchet probably came from our place
00:48:12
they are white let's just put that out there okay um anyway this Hatchet according to her and
00:48:21
according to the owners of the home it was in their house before these murders took place
00:48:28
we also have this range situation of the sheath that goes over the hatchet right
00:48:33
Captain so this sheath was supposedly found on the you know in in one of the rooms of this Hideout house right
00:48:43
so meaning that somebody would have to take off the cover once they take off the cover then they
00:48:49
go up the hill they create the murders as they drive down the hill in their car they're going to toss out this hatchet
00:48:58
on the side of the road correct correct and that is actually going to be pretty much the law enforcement's theory on
00:49:06
this case the theory being this Kevin Cooper was staying at this Hideout house he decides
00:49:13
that he needs money and a car to get him to Mexico he decides to break into this home and
00:49:21
when he breaks in he's confronted by I guess the husband or the wife or somebody and his reaction is to murder
00:49:30
everybody in the house and he only leaves that house after he thinks everyone is dead not knowing that the
00:49:36
eight-year-old boy would later survive right then he takes a beer from the fridge
00:49:44
in the house where he killed these people drinks the beer carries his items with
00:49:50
him from this house where he committed these murders back to The Hideout house where he's going to clean up
00:49:57
and later take their car dispose of the hatchet and make his way to Mexico but first he's going to stop in Long Beach
00:50:05
and dump the car yeah so do we have any evidence from the car then we do and and
00:50:11
here's the thing though I apologize I think it wasn't until like five to seven days after the murders that the vehicle
00:50:18
was located I I can't find it in my in my notes here to be certain of that but if memory serves me correct then it was
00:50:27
about five to seven days after the murders that the vehicle was found in Long Beach inside the vehicle police
00:50:33
found loose tobacco on the front passenger seat and floorboard they also found blood stains and I wanna I'm gonna
00:50:41
throw a caveat in here a buyer beware to everybody out there listening regarding these blood stains inside the
00:50:49
vehicle the Ryan's vehicle I found reports that are all over the shop as to how much blood was found in
00:50:58
the car and where the blood was located some reports state that there were blood
00:51:04
stains on the front passenger seat and on the driver's side door jamb there are also reports out there that suggest that
00:51:14
blood stains were found in the back seat of the vehicle as well so we have where we have one situation
00:51:22
where the blood stains might suggest that only one person one bloodied person stole this vehicle and moved it there's
00:51:30
also evidence out there that suggests that maybe more than one bloodied person was in that vehicle now the car did not
00:51:37
appear to have been hot wired this is I included this statement because I'm uncertain if the keys were stolen
00:51:45
for this car right I'm guessing that they might be because we can we have to believe that the person that stole this
00:51:54
vehicle was inside the Ryan home you know also if you're kind of secluded from people that maybe you leave your
00:52:00
keys in your car I mean I've hung out with a lot of buddies that had lived on farms and stuff and they they'd never
00:52:06
take their keys out of that car yeah I I used to know somebody that would put it on the uh wheel yeah have
00:52:13
you ever seen people do that but the key on the wheel here you go I had a car once and that congratulations yeah
00:52:23
was so like worn down I swear you could have put any key into that ignition and it would have started
00:52:31
like I I think I actually did that one time I put the wrong key in and it turned over it still work yeah anyway
00:52:38
but there were two cigarette butts that were found inside the vehicle okay so one of them was a hand rolled cigarette
00:52:45
this was found in a crevice of the front passenger seat this is the same loose uh
00:52:52
believed to be roll right brand tobacco which is provided for free to the cim inmates right but you could buy this
00:53:00
tobacco just on the like on the open market right I know you couldn't according to Mike now I mind you I
00:53:09
didn't smoke cigarettes back in 1983 or live in California so I couldn't tell you yeah I couldn't tell you with
00:53:16
certainty but from what I found is this roll right tobacco was provided for free
00:53:22
to the inmates and not available for retail how would they know what kind of brand of tobacco would be uh
00:53:33
uh okay in all honesty we have a lot of people that would testify later in court that it appears
00:53:42
to be this roll right brand of tobacco I gotta be honest with you Captain I don't know how they would know that I I
00:53:51
don't know how they would know that for certainly if you take if I gave you three bags of loose tobacco
00:53:58
you're not going to know which one is which well and what I mean by that too not just if you gave it to me because I
00:54:04
I don't don't know tobacco very well anyway but I'm saying if you gave it to somebody that worked at a manufacturing
00:54:12
plant which these are the types of people that testified at court I think if you gave them if we broke open three
00:54:18
cigarettes right now or bought three different kinds of loose leaf tobacco like you said put them in different
00:54:24
baggies and handed them to them they're taking the Pepsi Challenge and they don't pass that test I don't see
00:54:31
how they would identify those to be anything other than loose tobacco right but I think that's the key here is you
00:54:39
go okay we don't need to go to the fine you know ballpoint pin right we just need to we need to have a marker line
00:54:48
right so we just need to go hey we have a loose tobacco now in 1983 there's probably more people rolling cigarettes
00:54:57
than they are now or was at the height of when people smoked but it's still important because that's a very small
00:55:05
it's a lot smaller percentage well and then you have another issue here too they also found a manufactured cigarette
00:55:13
butt was found in the front passenger seat of the car so so what we do know is we have a
00:55:20
smoker yes and how do we know that those cigarettes came from the person that stole the car
00:55:27
we don't we we don't know that for certain and we can get into these cigarette butts more later but the law
00:55:33
enforcement is going to have an answer for this because here again just like with the blood stains in the car captain
00:55:38
that you could present an argument that it was one bloodied perpetrator that was
00:55:43
inside that car or it was multiple bloodied perpetrators that was inside that car the two having two different
00:55:50
types of cigarettes found in the vehicle might suggest more than one person having been in the vehicle the problem
00:55:58
with this though is we have Kevin Cooper who admittedly stayed at this Hideout house well the owner of the the Mr lease
00:56:08
who is one of the owners of the home said that he would leave Viceroy brand cigarettes in that house and that they
00:56:16
were gone after Cooper had apparently stayed there right so you have this thing where maybe he
00:56:25
smoked some of that loose tobacco that he brought with him from the prison when he escaped and did he steal the Viceroy
00:56:32
cigarettes while he was at the house if that's the case that could explain away that we don't have two different
00:56:39
people smoking two different kinds of cigarettes we have one individual just smoking whatever he can get his hands on
00:56:45
at the time one if you have a bloody individual that goes inside the passenger seat goes into the driver's
00:56:51
seat goes into the back seat and that's going to make it seem like there's maybe
00:56:55
possibly more than one individual as well while we're on the topic of the cigarettes found in the vehicle Captain
00:57:02
I do want to point out that several tests were conducted on these cigarette butts so we have saliva test on the two
00:57:10
cigarette butts in the Ryan station wagon these results were consistent with cigarettes having been Smoked by a
00:57:18
non-secreter which we do know Kevin Cooper is a non-secreter only about 20 percent of the population are
00:57:27
non-secretors this doesn't mean that it was exactly him so what the heck does that mean it just means that he is he
00:57:34
has similar makeup to the person that did smoke these cigarettes now the blood type of the person who smoked the
00:57:41
manufactured cigarette that was found was determined to be type A which is also consistent with Kevin Cooper's
00:57:49
blood type but now that we have DNA why haven't we tested these items that's a good question
00:57:56
um because it still doesn't prove the murder but at least it proves um him inside their car well note I
00:58:04
don't think that it does um Oh you mean if it were tested for DNA right I just met with the evidence that
00:58:11
we currently have what I think is interesting about this evidence though that they present here it doesn't
00:58:17
specifically name Kevin Cooper as the person who smoked those cigarettes and left them inside the Ryan station wagon
00:58:24
but neither test excludes him from being that person either [Music] we got a ton more to get to please join
00:58:37
us back here in the garage tomorrow until then be good be kind and don't let it [Music]