00:00:20
[elevator bell dings] - Go on through the right. Here we are. - If you don't mind,
I'm gonna check out
00:00:42
sort of sight lines here. - Sure. [instrumental music] - I was 16 when my sister
Kitty was murdered
00:01:18
in New York City. In an instant she was gone. No one understood me
like Kitty. [music continues]
00:02:03
- Two weeks ago today twenty minutes after 3:00
in the morning it was a dark night.
00:02:08
Kitty Genovese, 28 years old,
drove her car into this parking lot
at the Kew Gardens Station
00:02:14
of the Long Island Railroad as
she had been doing for a year. She stopped, saw a man
against the wall
00:02:21
she didn't quite make it
halfway down the block before the killer
drove a knife into her.
00:02:26
- I heard the screaming,
and I went to, uh,
the bedroom window and I saw some girl
on her knees
00:02:32
and she was screaming,
"Help, help." - Just exactly what was it
you heard?
00:02:37
- "Save me, save me." - Didn't this frighten you
or shock you? - No.
00:02:42
- Fifteen years ago, a young
woman was stabbed to death in front of a Queens,
New York apartment
00:02:46
half a block from her home. - Tomorrow marks
what many people regard as one of the most
shameful anniversaries
00:02:51
in New York City history. - Fifty years ago, her murder led to the adoption
of the 911 system.
00:02:57
- Police discovered
that more than 30 people had witnessed her attack and no one had picked up
00:03:02
the phone to call the police. [music continues] - Lights came on
in the apartment building
00:03:14
a window opened, the attacker
got nervous and left but not a single person
came to the rescue
00:03:20
no one even called
the police at a time when the average response time
was 2 minutes.
00:03:26
So the man came back
and stabbed her again. It sent a chilling message
suggesting that we were
00:03:37
each of us,
not simply endangered.. ...but fundamentally alone. [music continues]
00:04:03
- Two weeks after
my sister Kitty's funeral the "New York Times" published
a front-page story.
00:04:10
It barely mentioned
her killer. Instead it focused
on Kitty's neighbors and practically blamed
38 of them for her death.
00:04:23
"The Times" story
was seen as proof that New York City
was uncaring that America was
falling apart.
00:04:31
And my sister's been
the symbol of bystander apathy
for decades. The girl no one cared about.
00:04:42
But recently "The Times"
published a new article. It challenged the accuracy
00:04:48
of its original report. And others now claim
the story of 38 witnesses is more myth than fact.
00:04:57
[instrumental music] What did the witnesses
actually see or hear? Were there really 38?
00:05:14
Why didn't they try
to help my sister? For years, I avoided
the details of that night
00:05:22
because they were just
too painful but it's worse
not knowing the truth. - Mr. Skoller?
00:05:39
- Bill?
- Yeah. - Hi.
- How you doing? - Alright. How are you?
Charlie Skoller. - Bill Genovese.
- How are you, Bill?
00:05:47
- Nice to meet you. Going around here is anxiety provoking. - Are you sure
you wanna do this?
00:05:52
This has to be
very difficult for you. - No, I absolutely I absolutely wanna do it.
00:05:58
It's interesting. When you
drive back here it's -- You know, when you're out
on Queens Boulevard there
00:06:02
it seems so,
for me anyway, city-ish. Here now you're in this really
nice neighborhood.
00:06:08
- This block is
all residential one-family homes. Pull into this parking lot. Because that's where
your sister pulled her car
00:06:20
into this lane. And this is where Winston Moseley caught up to her and struck the first blows
to her back.
00:06:33
Many of your sister's
neighbors really heard everything
that was going on,
heard the screams
00:06:38
knew that an attack
was taking place and knew
that it was a violent attack. It wasn't that your sister
was just screaming and screaming
00:06:46
she was yelling, "Help, help,
I'm being stabbed." That was not just screams alone.
00:06:53
And Joseph Fink was seated
in the lobby of the Mowbray. He was the night
elevator operator
00:07:00
and he saw the entire
first attack take place from beginning to end.. ...and he knew exactly
what was happening.
00:07:11
And instead of doing anything,
he got on the elevator went downstairs,
went to his apartment
00:07:16
and went to sleep. Now, as she was being attacked
in this hallway Karl Ross looked down
00:07:25
and he saw
that second attack take place. And he went to the telephone called his girlfriend.
00:07:33
She said, "Don't get involved." - It just kills me to think
that when he first looked down
00:07:41
he could have ended it
right there by doing something. He could have yelled down, "I'm
calling the police." And that --
00:07:46
- Yes. Or, "The police
are on their way." - How much time do you think,
if you can remember
00:07:52
from the first attack
to when he finds her again? - I would say about a half
an hour, possibly 40 minutes.
00:07:59
Long enough for somebody
to have called the police and for the police
to have arrived
00:08:04
and probably to save
your sister's life. [instrumental music] [music continues]
00:08:51
- Turns out,
I'm not the first to look for these witnesses. - We traced Karl Ross
to this pet store
00:09:00
but we found that he'd sold it. The new people here kindly
agreed to contact him for us
00:09:05
but Karl Ross remains silent. Mr. Koshkin, I wanted
to ask you one more time if you would speak to us?
00:09:13
- 20/20 had no luck interviewing witnesses
in 1979. If I was going
to have more success
00:09:21
Charlie Skoller suggested that I start
with the trial transcript. My family couldn't bear
to go to the trial in 1964
00:09:32
so I never heard the testimony
of the witnesses. Only 5 of the 38 witnesses
were called to take the stand.
00:09:43
Samuel Koshkin, Robert Mozer Sophie Farrar, Andree Picq Irene Frost. [dramatic music]
00:09:58
- I heard a shriek. I got outta bed,
went to the window and I saw a man and a woman
00:10:03
standing across the street by the bookstore.
I looked at them for a minute. Nothin' happened,
so I got back to bed.
00:10:12
The second time she screamed
"Please, help me, God. Please help me.
I've been stabbed."
00:10:18
I went to the window,
and as I got there she was kneeling down
on the sidewalk
00:10:22
and he was running
up the street. - Did you know
Irene Frost at all? She worked
for your grandfather.
00:10:31
- Oh yeah, oh yeah.
I know the name well. My grandfather didn't know
much about running
the business
00:10:37
and apparently
I -- Irene stole several $100,000 from him so her name
doesn't sit too favorably
00:10:43
in the Hirsch family. - Now, do you know
if she's alive or dead at this point?
00:10:48
- Oh, she's long dead. [instrumental music] - I saw this girl
at the bookstore kneeling
00:11:05
and this fellow had her down
bending over her. And I hollered,
"Hey, get out of there."
00:11:10
And he jumped up and ran. He ran like a scared rabbit. I never saw anybody
take off as quick.
00:11:24
[music continues] - I heard the voice upstairs. Suddenly, the neighbor's
screaming something
00:11:43
and the man ran away
very fast, near the bus stop. The poor girl get up slowly..
00:11:51
...and she screamed, "Help!" And walking slowly
toward the drugstore and up towards
the back street.
00:11:59
I was still at the window scared, kind of frozen. And a few minutes
after that man came back
00:12:07
walking normally
as if nothing happened. And then he went down
to the train station
00:12:13
and then he came out again and left in the back and I could not see anything.. ...but I heard
the last 2 screams.
00:12:22
"Help, help." [music continues] [music continues] - Hi, is this
the Michael Farrar
from Kew Gardens?
00:13:03
Michael, I just
recently found out that your mom was with my sister
when she passed away.
00:13:09
I was wondering if she'd be
willing to talk to me? - My mom, she really
liked Kitty.
00:13:20
And, you know, she can't get
around no more but I spoke to her
and she told me stuff
00:13:25
that I couldn't hear when I was
younger, what happened and all. We'll get into that later.
00:13:40
- This was Kitty's
apartment here. - On this side?
- Right here, yes. - And then yours
is straight ahead?
00:13:45
- Yes. This room here,
this was my room. Kitty's window is right there. When I went
to school sometimes
00:14:09
if Kitty would have coffee and toast with my mom. Kitty confided in her a lot. They were friends
and they talked
00:14:16
about whatever women talked about, you know. - So that night,
what happened? I mean, in your house,
what happened?
00:14:24
- A -- a scream,
a loud, loud scream a horrible,
blood curdling scream and it woke me up.
00:14:33
- How many people
do you think heard it? - Just looking at the windows,
about 40, 50
00:14:41
could be 60
because it was so loud. Uh, the whole neighborhood
had to hear it.
00:14:47
And this neighborhood
back in the 60s I remember
a lot of the older people they had numbers on their arms
00:14:55
they were
in concentration camps. That type of a person
might not wanna get involved
00:15:00
with authorities because
of what happened
with the Nazis so, you know, you can't blame
people for being afraid.
00:15:07
But that night
when I walked up the hallway my parents were up, out,
this window was open
00:15:15
and my father was looking out
the window. Well, he didn't see anything so my parents went back to bed.
00:15:22
About 20 minutes later or so somebody called my mom and that's when my mom
said to my father
00:15:30
"Kitty's in the hall bleeding." And she just grabbed her jacket
and threw it on.
00:15:37
And she started to run and my father was putting
his pants on and he says,
"Wait, wait for me."
00:15:43
And she ran down. - So she comes in, it's 3:30
in the morning or thereabouts
00:15:54
and it's freezing cold. - It was cold March.. ...and this is actually
the doorway.
00:16:01
When my mom tried to open
the door, it hit Kitty and she was facing her head
towards the door
00:16:09
her feet towards the stairs and my mother had to push
the door in to get in. She held her,
and she could feel
00:16:17
the stab wounds in her back and her hands kept going,
still fighting and my mom
finally calmed her down
00:16:26
but she couldn't talk
and she started to gurgle. That was her, she was just
passing then
00:16:32
she was dying, so -- Hours later I opened the door and the whole bottom
of this foyer was blood.
00:16:45
[instrumental music] But you could actually
smell the blood. You know, it's like something
you don't forget.
00:16:57
It's like walking
in an old butcher shop how you could smell that
the -- the human, the meat.
00:17:02
It -- You know, it -- The prints on the wall
were marked in pencil 1, 2, 3, 4, 5.
00:17:13
And it wasn't until
I was talking to my mother and I said when I looked in,
I saw the handprint.
00:17:19
And she says, "That was
my fingerprints on the wall." - Your mom?
- Yeah.
00:17:24
'Cause when she went
to get up, she was like she went and she put her hands
on the wall.
00:17:31
My mom spoke to one woman
from a newspaper back then and she told her what happened
and the woman says
00:17:38
you know, "Would you do that
again, if you had to?" And my mother says,
"Certainly, of course."
00:17:42
When the paper come out,
it says my mom said that she would never get
involved with it
00:17:46
and that's when my mother says,
"It don't pay to talk because they twist
what you say."
00:17:50
And that's, she never said
anything since...you know. - Do you think your mother
would talk to me?
00:17:57
- I -- I'll twist her arm
a little, you know,
but I think she would. - Not, not too hard, but --
00:18:01
- I think that she would
do that. - Thank you so much. - I wish it could have been
00:18:06
different circumstances. Alright?
- Yeah, really. - You know, give the best
to your family and --
00:18:15
[music continues] - Why was Sophia left out
of the original story? It would have made such
a difference to my family
00:18:37
knowing that Kitty died
in the arms of a friend. Truth is my family
doesn't know much
about Kitty's murder.
00:18:50
The only time we learned
any details of that night was in 1995. That's when the killer
appealed for a retrial.
00:19:01
It briefly brought us
face to face with the man who murdered and attempted
to rape Kitty.
00:19:09
Hearing those details
for the first time was unbearable for me
and my siblings.
00:19:17
- Speaking for myself.. [sighs] ...it never goes away. I never forget the day that the policemen
in New Canaan
00:19:33
came to our door,
knocked on it.. ...and told us what happened. - It was very early
in the morning
00:19:40
and the doorbell went off and I think
I was awakened by that and I heard
the -- the conversations.
00:19:46
And then, then, then just ex -- extreme like piercing, screaming. And then freezing in my bed.
00:19:58
- My mother, my mother
was a basket case. My father was also. My father couldn't even
identify my, my, uh
00:20:08
sister's body in the morgue. He
had to send his brother there. - And the neighbors
are all like
00:20:13
"Oh, my God,
what can we do for you?" And it's like, uh -- "Why don't you take,
why don't you take Frank?"
00:20:22
I -- I just went off
to the McSweeny's. I was with them for weeks. I never even went
to my sister's funeral.
00:20:34
It was all over the news,
everywhere. So, I got a lot
of my information just from sneaking maybe,
and turning on a TV and --
00:20:47
- The only thing we could
think about is the tragedy. We almost erased her
from our lives.
00:20:57
[instrumental music] Bill, it's hard to say
how he handled it. I -- I -- I really, you know,
we really never sat down
00:21:07
and talked about it. She took a --
a shine to Billy. She spent a lot of time
with him.
00:21:31
- Kitty and I were separated
when I was 6. That year my parents decided the city
was getting too dangerous
00:21:39
so we left
for New Canaan, Connecticut. Kitty had already
graduated high school
00:21:46
and much to my parent's
frustration she decided
to stay in the city. For the next 10 years,
I only saw her on weekends
00:21:55
when she would come to visit. We'd have a lot of fun driving
around in her red Fiat.
00:22:06
But the best part was talking
late into the night. Kitty seemed to know
about everything.
00:22:14
And I was a curious kid
and asked a lot of questions. Kitty always took the time
to answer them.
00:22:43
For decades, the identity
of the so called 38 witnesses has been a mystery. If I was going to track
any of them down
00:22:51
first I'd have to find out
who they were. I requested
all the information
on my sister's murder
00:22:58
from the New York police
department. They sent me copies
of the original detective
00:23:04
accounts of witness interviews
called DD5's. - I saw her, she was wearing
a black coat and high heels
00:23:13
and the coat was held
around her body. She was a, a small girl --
- Terrific scream.
00:23:18
- What I thought at first
was some cat -- - It sounded like a child. - And I looked out to see
and I couldn't see anything.
- Otherwise I --
00:23:29
- The police want to know
your name and everything
and they get people involved.
00:23:32
These kind of people don't
want to get involved.
- Why didn't we do something?
00:23:34
- I mean, I -- I feel
a terrible guilt. - Much of the reports
were illegible. And almost all the names
had been redacted.
00:23:50
I was at a dead end
without the names. But I thought of someone
who might be able to help.
00:23:57
- 20/20 has gone back
to reexamine what has become
a classic case not of crime,
but of social behavior.
00:24:03
- Hello?
- Aram? - Yes.
- This is Bill Genovese. My sister was Kitty Genovese.
00:24:08
- Oh, yes.
Oh, my goodness. - Did you, did you have any
luck in reaching
any of the witnesses?
00:24:14
- I did try
to track them down, yes. I used to have a file. Uh, I have some stuff
at Columbia
00:24:21
and, uh, if it were anywhere it could be there. [instrumental music] - The list Aram had found
00:24:31
contained summarized versions of the witness accounts. Most importantly,
it had the names.
00:24:39
These statements
from the neighbors matched the DD5 reports. So Aram's list must have come
from the police interviews.
00:24:49
When I added up the number of entries, there were 38. Could these be
the 38 witnesses?
00:24:58
[music continues] [dogs barking] Lynne, I presume.
- Yes, Bill, I presume. - Yes, and you're Tod.
- This is Tod. Bill.
00:25:21
- Uh, Bill.
- How're you doing? - Good.
Can I help? - Nah, I'm good.
- Okay.
00:25:30
- Can't we help you? - Over here, yeah. So, you lived
in the Mowbray? What apartment, what floor?
00:25:38
- Second floor. 214. - Did you feel
like the neighborhood was safe? - Yes. - Cause you were 19, 20
00:25:47
around 1964. Did you feel you could come
and go in the evening? - Oh, yes,
but I could see people
00:25:55
and they would just pull down
the shades or -- There was a fear. There was a fear
in that building, I think.
00:26:02
- What was your experience
that night? - I heard a scream.
It woke me up. I looked out the window,
I didn't see anything
00:26:09
I didn't hear any more. And I said, "Oh, well."
I went back to sleep.
00:26:14
- Did it wake your parents up? - No, as far as I know. The next morning
the detectives were pounding
on the door
00:26:22
and I told them what I had,
you know, experienced. - Yeah. - Do you think you were
1 of the 38
00:26:28
that were reported
to have done nothing? - I -- I supposed I could be I could be counted
in with that.
00:26:35
- Hmm.
When the police -- - Because I woke up I looked out the window...
and I went back to bed.
00:26:45
But I wasn't in that group.
- Yeah. - I -- I, that was not my
behavior in that, in that.
00:26:51
- Yeah.
- Yeah. - In my research, your name
and your mom's name is down there as saying
00:26:58
"I heard, George, he's --"
Eh, let me get it right "George, he's, he's done it
to me.
00:27:04
George, he's done it to me."
Twice. And then, "Please help me."
00:27:09
So, you and your mom you were probably counted
as part of the 38. And, according
to your remembering
00:27:19
your mom never said anything? - No, as far as I know, she
never spoke to the police
at all.
00:27:25
- Yeah. - Wow, I have no idea
who George is but I, I never heard
of anything like that.
00:27:33
And as far as I know
momma was asleep. That is shocking. Wow. [instrumental music]
00:27:46
[knocks on the door] - Come on in.
- Hello. - How are ya?
- You're Hattie? - Yes.
- Hi, Bill Genovese.
00:27:55
- Nice to meet you.
- How're you doing? - Nice strong grip. - Were you ever interviewed
by the police?
00:28:03
- Yes, I think I was, yeah. - This is what they recorded
anyway, that you said to them.
00:28:08
"Hattie Grund, saw a woman
screaming, "Help." "She was standing
in front of cleaners.
No male was present."
00:28:15
- That's true. I heard somebody
saying "Help, help.." ...from what I recall
and then I called the police.
00:28:24
- You called the police?
- Always. And they said,
"We already got the calls."
00:28:30
- Hmm.
- I didn't even finish
my statement. And they said,
"We've already gotten the call."
00:28:37
It wasn't that people
didn't call. There might have been other
people that called..
00:28:42
...because once you got
the police station before you could finish they
said, "We've gotten the calls."
00:28:49
- When news reporters, uh,
came to talk to you, uh were they pushing the, you
know, the witness story
and asking --
00:28:57
- Oh yeah, they were persistent
in getting information,
you know. And that's the thing Kew Gardens
got a little aroused
00:29:04
when they said they were,
we were apathetic. We were not. There are always
a few people that call.
00:29:17
[instrumental music] - After hearing
Hattie Grund claim she and others
called the police.
00:29:23
I requested the police log
of phone calls
from that night. The only call they list
is from Karl Ross
00:29:30
well after Moseley was gone. Did the police fail
to log the calls? Or did Hattie just create
a story she could live with?
00:29:43
A witness who doesn't know
she's a witness. So many other missed details
of that night.
00:29:51
Like the fact that Kitty
didn't die alone. How could anything be believed
about this story?
00:30:03
I never questioned it. Two years after Kitty's death I graduated high school.
00:30:11
The Vietnam War
was in full swing. Many of my peers were looking
for ways not to serve.
00:30:18
Whether the war
was right or wrong I couldn't help but see them as apathetic bystanders.
00:30:24
I wasn't going to be like
the 38 witnesses So I enlisted in the Marines. And at 18, you're going off
to war and you're thinking
00:30:35
"I'll come home okay." [music continues] - I think he's looking
for the ultimate inner peace.
00:31:01
The choices that he made
in his life um, were all related to the fact that no one
helped his sister.
00:31:11
And if he knows the truth,
that's a peacefulness. I mean, I'm hoping for Bill
that there'll be closure.
00:31:20
You know, like he didn't
lose his legs in Vietnam for nothing. [music continues]
00:31:41
- The version of the story
that was accepted as fact for so many years was written
00:31:45
by the late reporter
Martin Gansberg. His editor at "The Time" was a man named Abe Rosenthal
00:31:53
who became a major figure
in journalism. From what I've found,
it's Rosenthal
00:31:58
who's credited with breaking
the story. And later that year he wrote a book called
"38 Witnesses."
00:32:09
- This story has never died. I still get mail about it,
people write theses about it.
00:32:15
There are lectures
and seminars at universities. They are obsessed
by this story.
00:32:23
It's like a jewel. You keep looking at it and different things
occur to you.
00:32:27
It's affected my approach
to life, I think. - Okay, sir. - According to his book,
he first heard
my sister's name
00:32:40
when he had lunch
with the city's police chief 10 days after the murder. - I was, uh, nauseated
at the idea
00:32:49
that people in New York City in Queens, knew that a girl
was getting killed. And later they dis,
it was discovered
00:32:57
that 38 people
didn't do anything. It was the failure
of New York City or the people
of New York City
00:33:07
to take action, stick out
a hand, do something. - Right.
- Shout, "Hey, we need help."
00:33:14
And that was what grabbed
the people of the city and other cities. - Well, where did
the number 38 come?
00:33:22
I wonder was it synthesized
somehow to make a big impact?
- No. - So that we could
get a positive.
00:33:28
I mean,
for a positive result -- - You asked the question
and I'm telling you.
00:33:31
I can't swear to God that there were 38 people. Some people say
there were more
00:33:37
some people say
there were less but what was true.. ...people all over the world
00:33:44
were affected by it. Did it do anything? You bet your eye
it did something. And I'm glad it did.
00:33:56
[instrumental music] - Forty years after
the original article appeared the "New York Times"
reexamined their account.
00:34:06
They acknowledged
some of the original
article's flaws and highlighted the questions
surrounding the story.
00:34:13
Most of the revisionist
information came from Joe DeMay. A Kew Gardens resident
and amateur historian.
00:34:21
- I sat down and I read
through the article and when it was all through
I thought to myself
00:34:27
"What the heck this,
this can't make this doesn't make
any sense at all."
00:34:30
If you read
through the article the first paragraph
is crystal clear and absolutely riveting.
00:34:36
For more than half an hour 38 respectable,
law-abiding citizens in Queens watched
a killer stalk
and stab a woman
00:34:42
in 3 separate attacks
in Kew Gardens. Well, turns out there weren't
38 eyewitnesses at all.
00:34:49
The witnesses to the case,
with one or two exceptions were ear witnesses,
not eye witnesses.
00:34:55
What happened is this. There was an initial attack
on Austin Street that was broken off,
the killer fled.
00:35:03
Your sister then got up
and she walked around to the back of the building. The people in the apartment
building could not
00:35:08
have seen her for more
than a couple of minutes. When they saw him come back
the few witnesses
00:35:14
that were still at their
windows, Kitty was long gone as far as they knew
she was some place safe.
00:35:19
So, yeah, the story
was generally correct but in a lot of the important
details it was grossly
00:35:24
exaggerated and simply
not true. - When I first came upon
his website my first reaction
was to sort of brush it off.
00:35:37
But then I came back
and read it very closely and realized, "Wow, his argument
is incredibly compelling."
00:35:43
If the story had been reported
more accurately it still would have been
a 2 or 3 day
00:35:48
maybe -- maybe even 4 day story but it would not have been
a 50 year story. We would not still be sitting
here talking about it today.
00:35:56
- Did anybody ever challenge
the 38 witness 38 eyewitness story? - Yeah. Not at the time.
00:36:03
Not in 1964.
In fact to the contrary. Other newspapers, other
magazines, "Li-Life Magazine"
00:36:11
ran with it and then even
exaggerated it further. - This is Mike Wallace. Why did 38 people fail to act?
00:36:23
The answer to that question
concerns every one of us who fears perhaps that apathy
00:36:29
has become part
of our way of life. - The question becomes was it worth
all the attention it got
00:36:35
or was it a media creation? - Oh, I think to a certain
degree it was a media creation.
00:36:44
No one investigated the 38. No one followed up on it
or anything of that nature.
00:36:50
- Do you have any feel
for why that would have been with this case
versus any other case?
00:36:57
- Because it was taken
seriously by "The New York Times." The reason I picked up on it..
00:37:04
...was because Abe Rosenthal
is a man I respect. Good reporter, in a position
of authority
00:37:12
at "The New York Times." I mean, "The Times" had, still
does, but back then particularly
00:37:19
had that kind of clout. It's a fascinating...
troubling story. And undoubtedly,
sold newspapers.
00:37:34
- Hi, is this Mr. Lelyveld?
- Yes, sir. - When did you start working
at "The Times?"
00:37:40
- I became a reporter
in 1963, I guess. - Do you think the original
"Times" story is accurate?
00:37:47
- I remember feeling
it was a little skimpy.
- Yeah. - That it, that it reached
its judgment quickly.
00:37:53
- Have you ever heard
of a woman named Sophia Farrar? - No. - Sophia Farrar actually did
00:37:59
go down to be with her as soon as she found out
about it. - And did the police list her
00:38:04
as a witness in their reports? - Yeah, she testified in court. - And she's not mentioned
in "The Times" story?
00:38:10
- No. - Well, that's just, uh that's inexcusable then. The question would be
why the competition
00:38:15
didn't look into it. - Hi, Richard Wald?
- Speaking. - You were the managing editor
00:38:21
at "The New York Herald
Tribune" in '64? Did "The Tribune"
ever write a story
00:38:28
about how "The Times"
covered the story of 38? - No, I don't remember
"The Tribune" ever doing that.
00:38:34
Let's assume you were
a reporter on the scene. If you had a sense
that it didn't happen
00:38:39
that way,
I would have assigned people
to go and check. - Right. - But I don't know
any reporter
00:38:44
who felt that way. - Mr. Pressman.
- Hi, Bill. How are you? - Good. I'm good.
00:38:53
- In 1964,
I was a reporter at WNBC and I had no first hand
knowledge of the story
00:39:01
but my friend Danny Meenan
covered the story. At this point
he was doing radio I believe for WMCA,
and, uh
00:39:10
among all the police reporters
I've known and I've known many,
he was one of the best
00:39:14
if not the best. He said, "The story doesn't make
any sense to me."
00:39:19
And he gave me an account of uh, what he found. And it says here,
"There were many witnesses.
00:39:28
"Some 30 odd in the number. "One conclusion all seemed
to have, it was a drunken brawl
00:39:34
between man and wife." Martin Gansberg, the author of the "Page One Story"
in "The Times"
00:39:40
which caused the furor,
was challenged by this irate reporter. "Why didn't you include
in your story
00:39:49
"the fact that many
witnesses did not believe a murder
was taking place?"
00:39:55
Gansberg replied.. "...It would have ruined
the story." - That to me is incredible.
00:40:08
It's curious to me why, and I'm not trying
to blame Danny Meenan or yourself or anybody else
but why --
00:40:16
how come people didn't call
"The Times" out on that? - Because it was
"The New York Times"
00:40:23
and Danny, you know, he had to continue
to hold on to his job. I don't think that he
probably was interested
00:40:30
in taking on Abe Rosenthal
and "The New York Times." A couple of years passed,
00:40:36
I was teaching a course and this seemed
to be something that the class
would want to explore.
00:40:42
A couple of the people
in my class being enterprising I guess you would say,
called Rosenthal.
00:40:49
And Rosenthal called me. He was really angry,
he was screaming at me. "Do you realize," said Rosenthal
00:40:57
"that this story has become emblematic of a situation
in America?" "That it's become the subject
of sociology courses
00:41:07
books and articles." And I think that
that is abhorrent to anyone
who is interested in truth.
00:41:18
- For me to hear that,
it's just shocking because I grew up and moved
in certain directions
00:41:24
based on this story
being fact. But indeed it was
not totally fact. - Did they say why they just
sat there doing nothing
00:41:38
while that girl
screamed for help? - They all had
the same answer. They didn't wanna get involved.
00:41:44
- A young woman
stabbed 14 times then raped
outside her building. - While 40 of her neighbors
turned up their TVs
00:41:50
so they couldn't
hear the screams. - If you're a witness
in one of these things,
you know what you gotta do?
00:41:55
Put on a shirt and tie,
you gotta go down to court -- - So because of a little
inconvenience
00:41:58
you don't wanna get involved?! - Listen, let me explain
something to you, huh?
00:42:01
Shut up! - You look at things
that happen in the world and that's one of the ways
that you decide
00:42:10
what course
you're gonna take. And if those things
aren't accurate then you could
chart the wrong course.
00:42:17
If Kitty Genovese is a name
that immediately summons something to people's minds
00:42:24
then that thing that gets
summoned should be the truth. [birds chirping] - So, that's everyone who,
who saw --
00:42:36
- These are witnesses. - Witnessed in some way,
at least heard something. And A.M. Rosenthal's the guy
who wrote "38 Witnesses."
- Right.
00:42:45
- The truth of the matter is,
38 people didn't see it. - Okay. Dr. and Mrs. Rubenstein
heard screams, "Help, help
00:42:53
they're killing me." - You know, I often wondered how much detail
Billy would get into.
00:42:58
- "He heard a woman scream
at about 3 o'clock." - So and so did this,
so and so opened the window,
00:43:04
so and so shouted,
so and so -- For what? She's dead. She's murdered,
you know.
00:43:15
I don't want --
Why do I wanna hear that? - "Standing over her
and repeatedly striking her.
The girl then --"
00:43:22
- I personally never heard
a story from my dad's family members
about Kitty.
00:43:29
I think her death
overshadowed her life for anybody involved with it. - In some ways there was this
hush-hush about her life
00:43:39
because they couldn't talk
about her death. It probably made it
more traumatic
00:43:44
because they weren't able
to celebrate her life. They were focusing
on her death
by hiding the fact
00:43:49
that she was even alive
to begin with. - I mean, to me,
she's a picture in a magazine.
00:43:55
I know her from things
I read on Wikipedia or Googled or read randomly
in a book
00:44:04
when I was in high school
in English class and didn't realize
it was my aunt
00:44:07
until about half-way through. I know how she died.
- Yeah. - That's the story
I could tell you.
00:44:19
- Inside, dad?
- Yeah. [engine whirring] One more. As you're beating your head up
against the wall
00:44:42
and having to relive
this murder scene over and over again, it's like,
you know, you stop and say
00:44:48
"Why the hell
am I doing this? This is, like, nuts. I don't know, I guess
the message for me
00:44:54
and why I can't stop until
I feel like it's over. - Yeah, when is it over?
00:44:58
- I -- I'll know
when it's over. Let me just describe something
really quickly.
00:45:04
My sister Kitty, for you,
would be a combination of mom and me. So imagine that.
00:45:13
Mom and I both get murdered
on the street. - Well, see, I never knew
it was like that for you.
00:45:24
Like, you've never -- I mean, you've never expressed
it in that way. - Right.
00:45:35
So the obsessive part of me that's gotta get
to the end of it the end isn't reached yet.
00:45:40
There's see -- there's more
bases I'd like to touch. For instance, like, Kitty
was married, did you know that?
00:45:47
- No, I --
No. [instrumental music] - My sister was so much more
than her final 30 minutes.
00:46:13
But in our late-night talks, her life in the city
barely came up. All I knew was
she worked in a bar.
00:46:22
Was briefly married
to a man named Rocco. In the past few years,
journalists have revealed
00:46:30
that her roommate Mary Ann
was actually her lover. If I didn't know something
as important as that
00:46:38
how well did I really
know my sister? Even though I haven't seen him
since I was 6
00:46:46
I decided to reach out
to Rocco. "Dear Rocco, I've been working
with a filmmaker
00:46:54
for several years
on a documentary about Kitty." "At this point, I have
questions about her life
00:47:00
"in New York
after high school and I think you hold the key
to the answers."
00:47:08
"William, I respect
the feeling expressed
in your message "and I ask you do the same
for mine
00:47:14
which are to respect
my desire for privacy." "My relations with Kitty shall
remain a mystery forever."
00:47:25
[instrumental music] - Hi, pops. What are you doing? - I'm reading through
Kitty's yearbook.
00:47:38
"May we dance forever
on each others' feet" Love and Stuff, Elsa."
00:47:49
So this is where you went
to high school? - This is where
we went to high school.
00:47:53
And when we played hooky,
we were in that park. which we did a lot. - Did Kitty have any
aspirations of going
to college?
00:48:03
- No. And it's interesting
because she was smart. But I don't remember her
ever striving for the "A."
00:48:11
Probably 'cause
we were all cut-ups. [upbeat music] Everyone loved Kitty. She was funny, very witty.
00:48:24
She had an, an enormous
following. [music continues] She was a very good mimic
of teachers
00:48:38
particularly
our French teacher. She would do
the Sid Caesar thing where she made believe
she was talking French.
00:48:43
[speaking in French] [music continues] To be in Kitty's clique
was a big deal.
00:48:53
We played hooky. We went to the beach or here in the park or smoking on the roof.
00:49:03
And she was the head
of the pack. - So, you first heard
about Kitty's murder --
00:49:15
- I remember reading the obit. It said that she was a barmaid.
- Yeah. - Okay? And, um, I was, I --
00:49:25
I remember thinking,
"What a pity, what a waste" that she wound up a barmaid.
00:49:33
- I'm Wally Brosnan, Bill.
- Wally, Bill Genovese. I was a friend
of Kitty's, too.
00:49:38
- Good. Nice to meet you.
- Hiya, Bill. - Nice to meet you.
- My pleasure. - Kitty started out
as a bar maid
00:49:44
but eventually she earned
a position as a bar manager. Her last job was at a tavern
called "Ev's 11th Hour."
00:49:52
Somehow I didn't
imagine this. The neighborhood's
changed quite a bit. - Neither did we.
We didn't imagine it either.
00:49:57
- Big difference. - When did the bar open? - 8 o'clock in the morning. - Now, you better
be here at 8:00.
00:50:06
Or else they'll be
knocking down the door. - Well, what was she like
in there, was she, you know
00:50:11
if there was trouble, did --
did anybody get into fights? - She cut off what's his name,
Harry Allerman
00:50:17
she cut him off, told him
he couldn't come in anymore. - Why, what was he doing,
screamin', yellin'?
00:50:21
- Well, you know,
he was just a drunk. - So would you, would you -- Was she like a tough person
to deal with?
00:50:26
- No!
- She was a pussycat. - When, uh, when my
last daughter was born she came to the hospital
with me.
00:50:33
- Oh, really?
- Yeah. Yeah, she came
to the hospital with me. - She was just --
she was just good
00:50:38
like, she'd goof with ya. You know, you'd goof with her
and she -- right back at you
00:50:43
you know, right back at you. - What was Ev's bar like? - Uh, it was like,
uh, cheers.
00:50:51
Everybody knows everybody else
and everybody's business. - Do you think she liked
working there?
00:50:55
- Oh, she loved it. Yeah.
- Yeah? - Oh, yeah.
That bar was her home. She was the queen
of the place.
00:51:02
Some of the people at the bar
used to think I was her
boyfriend. But I don't think
the people at the bar
00:51:07
had any idea she was gay. - Hmm. - I don't, in fact,
I'm positive they didn't
know about it.
00:51:13
- Oh, yeah. Everybody
knew that she was gay. - Oh, really?
- Oh, yeah. Everybody knew.
00:51:18
And let's put it this way,
she was one of the boys. I mean, guys used to borrow
money off her.
00:51:24
- Borrow money from her?
- Yeah. Everybody in there gambled
in one way or another.
00:51:31
- Kitty was arrested
for something or charged with something. What was that about?
00:51:37
- Not that I knew of. - What do you guys
know about that? - No, I don't,
I don't remember that.
00:51:42
- What she would do people would give her bets
to give to the bookie. - Hmm. And she got caught
in the middle.
00:51:49
People were giving
her bets and they said "You're booking the horses."
That's, that's what happened.
00:51:53
She got locked up or something
for that one time. Yeah. - I didn't know my sister
was such a racketeer.
00:51:59
[laughing] [instrumental music] - Apparently,
Kitty's arrest is the source of the most famous
picture of her.
00:52:07
For years, I wondered
where did this image
come from? It wasn't until I looked
closely that I noticed
00:52:14
a piece of string
hanging around her neck. A piece of string
that would have held up
00:52:19
her arrest identification. So this was her mug shot. It's hard for me
to picture that Kitty
00:52:28
when I think about the one
we saw when she come to visit. She seemed right at home
in that role.
00:52:37
But she also seems to have
thrived in New York City. Zipping around
in her little red Fiat.
00:52:45
Coming home alone
late at night. [music continues] There's one more person
who can tell me more about
00:52:59
Kitty's life in the city,
her lover Mary Ann. She used to come to New Canaan
with Kitty on weekends.
00:53:08
I assumed
they were just roommates. After Kitty died, we never
spoke to her again.
00:53:19
She declined to be
interviewed on camera. But she did agree to let me
record our conversation.
00:53:30
[indistinct chattering] Mary Ann, I --
I was always curious how did you and Kitty meet?
00:53:39
- It was either
the Duchess or the Sea Colony I don't remember the name. I was sitting at the bar
having a beer
00:53:43
and this woman comes up
to me and said "Don't I know you
from somewhere?"
00:53:46
I said, "Well, no." So then I said, "Well, I live
at 74th and Broadway."
00:53:51
I had a room and there's
a payphone across the street. And so somehow she found it.
00:53:56
So I had a note on the door
when I came back home. "I'm gonna call you at 7:00
on this payphone."
00:54:02
So she called me. [telephone ringing] I fell very much
in love with her. Mmm. - Do you think Kitty
was in love with you as much?
00:54:14
- I'm not sure. I think she had conflicts
about being gay. Because we would have,
we would have arguments
around this.
00:54:21
I think in time,
she would have worked it out. But she didn't have
the chance.
00:54:28
- On the 13th, did you hear
anything that night? - This is hard because
I blocked a lot of this out.
00:54:35
The police woke me up.
They knocked on the door. - Hmm. - We went down to the morgue,
4 o'clock in the morning.
00:54:45
That's when I identified her. I remember sitting
outside on the bench and they said,
"We're gonna take you home."
00:54:54
I said, "No, I'm gonna
wait for her." - What about Karl Ross,
do you remember him?
00:55:02
- She cried out to him, right?
- Yeah. - He had the pet shop,
that's how we met him.
00:55:07
- Oh!
- He got the poodle for me. We had an argument
and she bought it for me.
00:55:12
His name was Andrew. Somewhere around the funeral,
your father,
he came down there
00:55:18
and he said, "I want the dog
because it's Kitty's." I said, "No, it's mine."
00:55:23
Thanksgiving afternoon I woke up, the dog
was just gone. Just gone.
I never saw him again.
00:55:30
- I remembered,
after Kitty passed Andrew appears at our house. And I thought it was my dad's
way of cheering my mother up.
00:55:41
And it did just the opposite.
- Hmm. - I remember her saying,
"The dog needs to go back."
00:55:48
Then he disappeared. I can't, I mean,
that's terrible. I apologize
for my family for that.
00:55:55
That's -- that's awful. - A trauma can be so bad that it tears you up,
but somehow you have to heal
00:56:07
but right now,
I haven't healed. You know, you feel you could
have saved somebody
00:56:12
if you only knew?
That's what I feel. - I totally understand that. - I slept with her shirt
for a long time.
00:56:24
- What do you think needs
to happen for you to heal? [Mary Ann sighs] - I don't know.
I really don't know.
00:56:35
Have you ever gone
to his parole hearings? - No. - Maybe facing him
and seeing this
00:56:43
reprehensible human,
not even human being would make me say,
"That's it."
00:56:53
- You say that you remember
almost nothing of the murder? - The details of it, no.
00:57:00
- Uh, it -- it sort of it -- the length of time when it was reconstructed
was approximately 32 minutes.
00:57:06
Is a total blank? - I remember the street. I remember the act itself.. ...but the details, no.
00:57:17
- You remember the act itself?
- Yes. - And what was it? - The act was the --
the swinging of a knife.
00:57:25
And that, uh,
really doesn't take a lot to kill a person, I guess. - Could anything be gained
from sitting down
00:57:36
with Winston Moseley? In his 49 years in prison,
I never seriously
considered it.
00:57:44
After all, Moseley not only
killed my sister he destroyed my family. My parents
never really recovered.
00:57:55
My mother had a stroke
the year after Kitty's murder. My father died of a stroke,
when he was only 59.
00:58:08
My mother's faith got her
through those years and she said she forgave
Moseley in her heart.
00:58:17
Before I try to meet him
face to face I need to know more about him. [instrumental music]
00:58:31
- Winston Moseley
was arrested 5 days
after my sister's murder while stealing a television
from a house in Queens.
00:58:38
This time, a neighbor
was good enough to intervene. - How are you, sir?
- I'm good.
00:58:44
- So, he saw Winston
going into the house? - Well my father was sitting
on a porch like he usually did.
00:58:50
He saw this gentleman
went into Banister's home and my father says,
"What are you doing here?"
00:58:55
And he made a break
down the hill and my father catches him fell on top of him
and he couldn't move.
00:59:02
So he just called
the police department. They came right away. They put him in a patrol car
and took him away.
00:59:11
- His demeanor was what? - He was just
as calm as can be. - Really? - Just as calm as can be.
00:59:19
And nobody came to my father's to the house when we lived here to sit down and say thank you.
00:59:27
You're the only one. - Somebody brought
in this small meek-looking black guy.
00:59:37
And they brought the prisoner up to the detective office. One of the detectives
got an idea.
00:59:42
He said,
"Hey, you know that guy "he looks like
he could be -- match the description of the --
the person who killed
Kitty Genovese."
00:59:51
And we started
to question him. By the time we got done
talking to him we knew we had one of the, uh,
most bloodthirsty killers
01:00:00
that I had ever met. [scanner beeps] - Okay. - I was sitting
pretty much where you are.
01:00:12
And Winston Moseley sat in that
table right over there. The best word to describe
01:00:20
Winston Mosley, is ice. Nothing fazed him at all. Nothing fazed him. - My dad was assigned
to represent
01:00:31
uh, Winston Moseley. I was like a junior partner
in the office at the time and Moseley was
a very, very bright
01:00:40
and manipulative individual. He had an IQ of 135.
He had two children. He had a good, well-paying job.
01:00:50
He was very soft-spoken. The confession as
to Kitty's killing just, sort of,
flowed normally as
01:00:58
as part of...
his conversational tone. - So it was, like,
"I stole a TV and, by the way
01:01:03
I killed this person?" - Essentially. [instrumental music] - Moseley also confessed
to the murder of a woman
01:01:14
named Annie Mae Johnson. He murdered her
outside her house two weeks
before he killed Kitty.
01:01:21
According to Moseley,
he approached her as she was getting out
of her car at night.
01:01:25
He shot her four times
in the stomach
with a .22 rifle. He then rolled
her body into the house
01:01:33
and raped her while her
unwitting family members were upstairs. She was still breathing
01:01:40
so he wadded up
some newspaper.. ...piled them around her,
and lit the house on fire.
01:01:51
Two weeks after
he killed Annie Mae Johnson.. ...Moseley crossed
Kitty's path.
01:02:00
While he was
attacking my sister he knew people were watching. He heard Robert Mozer
yell down
01:02:07
from the 7th floor
of the Mowbray. He ran to his car,
sat for a few minutes and decided that no one
was going to intervene.
01:02:19
So he changed hats
and headed back to rape and murder my sister. When he found her inside
the vestibule, Kitty screamed.
01:02:33
He heard the door open
at the top of the stairs but quickly realized Karl Ross
was going to do nothing.
01:02:39
[music continues] As he drove away from
Kew Gardens after the murder Moseley crossed paths
with a driver
01:02:49
who had fallen asleep
at a red light. He approached the car.. ...held his knife
out of sight..
01:03:00
...gently woke
the driver and sent him
safely on his way. The jury found Moseley guilty
and sentenced him to death.
01:03:19
But Moseley appealed
and his sentence was reduced to life in prison. And that should have been
the last anyone
01:03:28
heard of Winston Moseley. However, in 1968,
Moseley escaped from prison and terrorized Buffalo,
New York.
01:03:41
Over the next four days he broke into houses,
raped a woman at gunpoint.. ...and took hostages
when the FBI closed in.
01:03:56
Neil Welch ran the FBI office
in Buffalo at the time and he was the first
to arrive at the scene.
01:04:03
- And I walked
immediately over and stood in the front
of the building.. ...and he said,
"Come in." you know.
01:04:10
He sat in a chair and
we were about 5 or 6 feet apart and he's got the gun
pointed at me.
01:04:17
I had a gun in my left pocket. I had a direct shot
right at him. - But, but in that direct
confrontation
01:04:26
your take on him was.. - Dangerous.
- Yeah. - But.. Well, I felt comfortable
in talking to him.
01:04:37
I put my hand out and I said "Let me have the gun, Winston." You have my guarantee that
you will be treated fairly .
01:04:49
One thing that I,
I was taken aback with was how small he was. You know,
I almost expected a larger
01:04:59
presentation of -- of evil. - Since his escape, Moseley
seems to have transformed
himself.
01:05:09
- I'm going to continue
to try to do positive instructive things to try to make up
for those crimes.
01:05:17
- In 1977, he completed
his sociology degree from the confines of a cell. That year, he also wrote
an editorial
in the New York Times
01:05:26
claiming he was reformed. - This process is, is really,
a -- aimed at helping you.
01:05:40
We know that by helping you,
we're probably going to help Winston, assuming that
he is in a position
01:05:45
to meet with you voluntarily
and whether or not you know, he's remorseful
for what he did.
01:05:49
So maybe we could start it off
by talking about you know, what it is
you're trying to accomplish
01:05:54
by having a meeting, uh,
with, uh, Winston Moseley. - I'm curious as to
what his life was like
01:05:59
over the last 49 years. Here, he murdered two people. How does he think about that?
- Mm-hmm.
01:06:06
- What did he think
about the events? If, if he wants to offer that.
- Mm-hmm. - If that opens him up to where
he has things he wants to say
01:06:15
so be it. Let's hear it. - What about if he says no,
he's not willing to participate?
01:06:30
- Well, I think
it'd be unfortunate.. ...on one level. And then,
on another level I think..
01:06:40
Well, that's a relief. - Drink ourselves funny.
- Did you open my wine? - Oh, that one,
you got it.
01:06:48
- Where's the stuff
on the bottom? - Where is it, I don't know. - I've got a bowl of pasta
01:06:54
with no clams.
That's -- how'd you do that? - No there is. - Uh, some people say
they called the cops
01:07:01
the cops didn't react
because there was a bar in this quiet neighborhood,
there was a bar
01:07:06
you know, people like,
it's again like a Rorschach it's like, what do you see
in this senseless pattern
01:07:12
so we're trying
to get with Moseley. Send him an email. - You sent him an email?
01:07:20
- Yep.
- Wow. - Bill. - What?
- What? - What's the, um.. What's the question, um..
01:07:33
What's the question..
What do you want answered? At what point are you
going to be satisfied?
01:07:38
- Well, the thing is,
sadly for me one question leads
to another question leads to another question
leads to 5 questions
01:07:44
leads to 10 questions,
and it's, uh you know,
it's a geometrical thing. - We're now sitting here
50 years later
01:07:50
we're still talking about Kitty. And I'm okay with that.. - Yeah.
- But 50 years..
01:07:57
- If you buried it,
you should have. You should have
because it's, it's..
01:08:03
It's ea -- it's easily described as an obsession
on my part. - I really need to.
01:08:10
- Bury it.
- Yeah. [phone rings] - Hello?
- Uh, hello, Bill. Uh, this is Mark Collins,
and Janet is with me as well.
01:08:25
- Hi, Bill!
- Hi, Janet. How're you doing? - Very good. How are you?
- Good.
01:08:30
- We met
with Winston Moseley. We are very, uh.. ...very, uh,
disappointed, however
01:08:37
as -- as,
as you will be that he has chosen
not to pursue a dialogue uh, process with you.
01:08:46
- You know, he was very
clear that he's been contacted by multiple media sources
01:08:51
and he's just, as he put it,
"Tired of being exploited." - You know, we know how
important this is for you
01:08:58
and so it was frustrating
for us to.. Obviously not nearly as
frustrating as you must feel.
01:09:04
- So is that
the final w -- word or can I write a letter to him? - You're certainly
not barred or prohibited
01:09:11
from writing a letter to him,
I just don't see him changing his mind. - Yeah. I really appreciate it.
- Okay.
01:09:18
- Thank you very much.
- Okay, bye-bye, Bill. [knock on the door] - Hi. Steven? - Bill?
- Bill Genovese.
01:09:48
- Hi, I'm Steven.
- Yes. - Nice to meet you. - How do you like
to be addressed?
01:09:54
Reverend? Reverend Moseley?
Or Steven Moseley? Or.. - However you feel
comfortable calling me.
01:10:02
- Steven, if it's okay.
- That's fine. - I thought to be perfectly
straight with you
01:10:07
and to show you exactly
where I'm coming from I spent many, many
hours and days writing this.
01:10:14
And in some places
it's gonna seem harsh but I think that you probably
will be able to read it
01:10:20
and understand
where I'm coming from. - Yeah, I, uh.. ...I see how you feel about,
uh, what happened.
01:10:39
- Yeah.
- When I was 7 years old. - Oh. No, I know. I don't hold the son responsible
01:10:45
for the father's deeds. Your dad won't talk to me.. ...and I'm, uh,
trying to find a way
01:10:52
in my own heart
to forgive him. - Can -- can I explain to you
what forgiveness does?
01:10:57
When you forgive people,
it's for yourself. It's for you.
- Yeah. - Uh..
01:11:03
How would you feel
about him getting paroled? Because, um...you know if it had not been
for the, uh, notoriety
01:11:11
of this story.. ...he'd have probably been
paroled by now. - But see my concern is
there's that part of him
01:11:19
that seems to be
a very good person and there's that part of him that maybe
he has no control over
01:11:26
that really is...for lack of
a better term, a monster. - 50 years ago. - 50 years ago, but my
concern is, where is he now?
01:11:39
- Only thing I know
is from what he's told me. You know?
He said he just snapped out.
01:11:45
Because there was some racial
tensions going on back then. And your sister was using a lot
of racial slurs at him and
01:11:53
he just lost it.
That's what he told me. - Mm-hmm.
- So I, I don't know.
01:11:58
- Do you, do you realize
he killed another woman? - I.. That's something
that I'm not real
01:12:02
uh, you know, sure of -- - And the other, the other
woman was African-American. - Okay, well, maybe he did
do that. I don't know, you know?
01:12:13
- Yeah.
- Uh, that's something
we never discuss. Um, I can only imagine
how you feel.
01:12:20
I don't know,
but I can imagine. - Right.
- You took a loss,
your family took a loss.
01:12:25
And my family took a loss.
You know, it affected everybody. My brother and I, we -- we
went through school with
01:12:32
uh, ridicule. Uh, people, you know, they used
to pick with us and call us children of a murderer
and all this.
01:12:41
So, what happened to your sister changed my form
of thinking also....you know. And I wanted to be
the good guy
01:12:49
and try to fix
the badness in the world. Now, you know, um,
let me just say this here..
01:12:55
I, I was kind of.. ...apprehensive about
talking to you. From what I've understood
01:13:03
there was a Genovese
crime family. Are you related to the crime
family of the Genovese?
01:13:09
- No, not at all. - I've always, uh, been told that, that it had been
the, the crime family that was
01:13:16
you know, that Kitty was from. - Steven, between you and me it's not true. - Everybody in my family
says to me you know
01:13:23
"You're crazy, you shouldn't go
there. You may not come back" - Ha.
01:13:28
- I said, "I'm not,
I'm not afraid to die." I said, "If it's my time
to die, I'm ready to go."
01:13:35
- So you're not only
cordial for coming here but you're courageous
for coming here.
01:13:41
- Yeah, uh...
I know that, uh.. ...at some point
in a person's life they have to move on,
you know, and, and
01:13:50
then you'll have some peace
of mind about it, you know? And, you know,
hopefully, you know
01:13:57
we can put everything that's
happened behind us and move on. - About a month after
talking with Steven Moseley
01:14:12
his father Winston
sent a letter. He described in detail
a bizarre version of what happened the night
of Kitty's murder.
01:14:19
According to him,
he was nothing more
than the getaway driver for the true killer.
01:14:25
An Italian mobster
named Dominic. "At that point, Dominic ran
at the woman
and I thought
01:14:32
"I was seeing him hitting her "in her back with his fist.
I didn't know he had a knife.
01:14:39
""Why?" I asked. ""She owed me" was all he said. "He said to me
in a very menacing way quote
01:14:49
""Not a word about tonight
to anyone. ""If you ever mention my name
01:14:54
""if you talk, you'll be sorry. Your family will pay."" And then it's
simply signed Winston Moseley.
01:15:06
Incredible. - It's so delusional.
- Yeah. It's kind of like, uh,
the human condition.
01:15:15
One believes their own bullshit
in evolving stories. - Amazing. 50 years
and he's come up with this.
01:15:22
- Yeah. [instrumental music] [music continues] It's hard to let go
when you can never know
the whole truth.
01:16:10
I'll never be able
to put myself in the place of the neighbors. - Welcome to our home.
01:16:16
- This is the bedroom. - Hello.
- Hi. The one in the bedroom
looks directly down
01:16:31
at the parking lot. - And I can never really know what it was like
for Kitty that night.
01:16:39
What thoughts
went through her mind. Only once in 50 years
have I come close to understanding.
01:16:48
It was July, 1967. I was on patrol
near an enemy village. [intense music] [gunfire]
01:17:12
[indistinct chattering] Lying in the middle of that
paddy, I was completely alone.
01:17:33
I thought of Kitty. What was it like for her
when she realized no one was going to save her?
01:17:50
[instrumental music] But Marines
carried me to safety and I lived
to tell the story.
01:17:59
- Whatever possessed you to go
running off into the paddy like
that? - I'm a marine.
- How do you mean?
01:18:04
- I'm a marine.
I'll take care of 'em. [indistinct chattering] After 50 years, I felt
there was one more thing
I had to do.
01:18:40
- Hi, how are you?
- Good. How are you? - I'm Shannon.
- Pleased to meet you, Shannon.
01:18:43
- Nice to meet you.
- Beeby? - Yes. [phone ringing] - Hello.
- Michael? - Yes.
- It's Bill Genovese.
01:18:53
I'm here with a woman
named Shannon Beeby and she is going
to act out the vocalizations here
on the street.
01:19:03
So of course the only person
we really have.. ...is yourself,
who can give us a -- an idea
01:19:10
of how loud was it
in your apartment. - The scream was so loud that it woke me up
from a dead sleep.
01:19:21
I've never heard anything
in my life that loud. [instrumental music] [music continues]
01:20:17
[panting] [screaming] - Help me! Help me! Oh, my God, please help me. Please, help me!
01:20:46
Help me! [sobbing] [indistinct muttering] [sobbing]
Oh, God.. [Shannon screaming]
01:21:44
Help! [instrumental music] - Thank you. [music continues] - Bill, how you doing?
How's everything?
01:22:40
- Good.
- Good to see you. - This is unbelievable. - I know. She was my friend
and I knew she was hurt.
01:22:50
And I..
And she needed help. That was -- that was my reason for flying down those stairs.
01:22:58
And then when I came in I'll never forget the black.. It kills me
when I think about it.
01:23:09
The black leather gloves
and all cuts all through the gloves
on her both hands. [sobbing]
I only hope
01:23:20
that she knew it was me. That she wasn't alone. - This is the youngest, Frank
01:23:29
and this is the oldest, Vin. So it was Kitty, Vin, Susan Bill and then Frank. This is our granddaughter.
- Oh, she's beautiful.
01:23:42
- I've come to realize
that the whole truth about Kitty's death
will never be known.
01:23:47
But maybe that's why the story
continues to fascinate people. - You really only
had to know one thing
01:23:53
to appreciate how
misleading that lead was. - And if nothing else,
it got us to think about
what we owe each other.
01:24:01
- To not only be vigilant
but to get involved and to help in
any capacity that we can.
01:24:10
[instrumental music] - 50 years
after Kitty's death,
I still miss her. I wish she had the chance
to know her nieces
and nephews.
01:24:30
To meet her grand-niece
who's named after her. But this journey
has taught me and my family
01:24:37
more about Kitty than
we ever thought we'd know. [music continues] - For some reason or other,
she really took
01:24:54
a-a liking to Billy,
more than me. - Although I remember,
one time I didn't eat
my spaghetti and she
01:25:01
dumped the spaghetti
on my head. - Yes! Really?
- Yeah. Kitty taught me to never
stop asking questions.
01:25:11
But I know
she'd want me to move on. [instrumental music] [instrumental music]
01:25:54
♪ God is in the roses ♪ ♪ The petals and the thorns ♪ ♪ Storms out on the oceans ♪
01:26:11
♪ The souls who will be born ♪ ♪ And every drop
of rain that falls ♪ ♪ Falls for those who mourn ♪
01:26:28
♪ God is in the roses ♪ ♪ And the thorns ♪ [instrumental music] ♪ The sun is on the cemetery ♪
01:26:51
♪ Leaves are on the stones ♪ ♪ There never
was a place on Earth ♪ ♪ That felt so much like home ♪
01:27:08
♪ We're falling like
the velvet petals ♪ ♪ We're bleeding
and we're torn ♪
01:27:19
♪ But God is in the roses ♪ ♪ And the thorns ♪♪ [music continues] [music continues]
01:28:28
[music continues] [music continues]