00:00:13
my father meant a great deal to me I dream about what it would be like to have him around today I went to my first
00:00:18
prom this year and you needed and needed my dad to be there I celebrated my 16th
00:00:23
birthday recently and was very upset because he couldn't be here all I want to know is why I know what my father was
00:00:30
like and I'm aware of the actions that took place in the murder I will do the
00:00:34
right thing and keep working towards mine and my father's dreams which were to go to college and open my own
00:00:39
[Music] business I like just shut that part of my life you know like I didn't cry I
00:00:50
just shut everything shut down I don't know it's it's something that I'm
00:00:59
dealing with in life working on learning feelings or expressing feelings or knowing what you're feeling
00:01:08
I [Music] guess I want him to kind of choose to it's so hard like we've been married so long but
00:01:37
it's funny because I don't know exactly what does he really like and then I was
00:01:41
thinking oh I'm going to get all these things but at the same time I felt like
00:01:46
I wanted him to have a choice he's been so many times told what to wear what to
00:01:50
put on I just you know bought a a shirt with a pair of jeans considering the fact he has not had any clothes for the
00:01:56
last 20s something years though I wanted him to be able to decide what he wanted
00:02:00
to wear well you know it's funny cuz the PA and I were saying oh who would sleep
00:02:04
on what side and um you know I told him I'll probably sleep on the left side
00:02:08
because that's what I'm used to sleeping on when something great happens what do
00:02:15
you do but have a bottle of champagne everybody toast um you know to him being home so I hear people comeing to work
00:02:23
and talk about their spouses oh they're driving me crazy I can't stand him you
00:02:27
know and I'm thinking oh my God what I would give to have paavo home what I would give to have him annoying me or I
00:02:35
had to wash his clothes cuz he doesn't want to wash it I would give everything
00:02:40
to have that everything in the end it's about him being free and them knowing he is
00:02:51
innocent everyone is suffering but I don't I don't feel that bad really because they are suffering but her she
00:03:03
she put herself there you you know and and she stayed there I don't know and he let her stay
00:03:12
knowing that he was guilty I [Music] mean I can't speak for any of their side
00:03:23
I don't I have a totally different outlook on things than I think they do but it's it's clearly
00:03:33
him they want to say the video is grainy black and white whatever but DNA doesn't
00:03:39
lie DNA doesn't lie is there any trial footage you know video from past trials available to show
00:04:00
how exhibits were handled when they were moved into evidence how they were handled when Chuck is waving them around
00:04:08
as we he's known to do yeah I think we have to look for pictures and video of
00:04:13
the evidence being handled in this case there may be circumstances where you actually see exhibits being passed down
00:04:19
Council table to Pablo and then passed back and then and you've got all of you
00:04:25
know all of those documented so we're not talking hypothetically we're and
00:04:30
this is what happened real organiz it's been open so much it's been open so much here he goes no gloves you
00:04:49
want gloves wait did he just ask him if he wants gloves she doesn't to say isn't
00:04:54
it possible that with the gloves he puts it on the floor the most contaminated surface in a
00:05:03
room people think that that evidence is held like in a freaking scientific Vault
00:05:08
and stuff and if they see this they'll be like that's how they handled it but
00:05:13
it needs to get in front of a jury I mean that's the [Music] idea the DNA is going to be the issue
00:05:25
that Pablo has the most trouble answering you can already see that their strategy is that the T-shirt was
00:05:33
contaminated it's not easy to contaminate something with DNA they're going to make it seem a lot easier than
00:05:39
it really is and it doesn't mean it's impossible doesn't mean that nobody
00:05:42
makes mistakes we're going to continue with um Mr sukalo thank you good afternoon good afternoon Mr
00:05:53
suomo if you have familiarity with DNA yes talk about the transfer of DNA yes yes we know that DNA can come and
00:06:02
commonly referred to as touch DNA yes I touch my laptop and the common phrase we
00:06:07
use is touch DNA is the transfer of my skin cells to the laptop correct and that type of DNA um is easily
00:06:15
transferred from one object to another directly correct I shook hands with Mr ebar this
00:06:22
morning that hand toand contact could transfer his DNA to my hand it could yes then I touched the
00:06:32
photographs now whatever was on my hand could end up on the photograph potentially that's secondary transfer
00:06:38
correct correct then Mr Morton touches a photograph whatever was on that photograph can end up on his hand
00:06:47
potentially yes and then Mr Mor touches an object whatever was on his hand end up on that object
00:06:55
correct and these are phenomenon that are well known to crime investigators correct it's the principles of crime
00:07:02
scene the principles of crime scene now we talked about the FL box next to the victim on the floor there could be
00:07:11
fingerprint evidence on this at that time yes and there could be DNA of it in on this possibly and was
00:07:19
this in fact the sealed container that you use when you collected the Black Box correct now when we were in court
00:07:29
yesterday yesterday and Mr Morton handed you the bag it was open correct and did
00:07:35
you also see Mr Morton when he took the bag he took the box out and examined it for a second while he was standing by
00:07:42
Council table correct and then he handed it to his Co counsil and she examined it
00:07:47
correct and then it was brought over to you and what did you get I put on gloves
00:07:53
and what does that do two keeps me from transferring my DNA to that particular item or anything that you touch
00:08:01
correct so really the use of gloves it's pointless because at this point now Mr
00:08:12
Morton has contaminated this piece of evidence somebody has prior to this yes but it's continued so again if I touch
00:08:23
Mr E bar and then I touched the photos that Mr Morton was going through yesterday and then Mr Morton touched the
00:08:29
photos and then he touched the Box this is now not a reliable piece of physical evidence cuz it's been contaminated
00:08:35
potentially potentially for further examination I no further questions thank you
00:08:47
honor the black box was irrelevant it was another red herring uh if there was no contamination because I had never
00:08:54
touched anything that belonging to Pablo ebar the only thing that would have happened to that black box and I'm sure
00:09:00
that you understood it is that my DNA and my prints would have been added to it but I was not on
00:09:11
trial the Black Box the way it was handled by Chuck in the courtroom may have opened the door to that video mhm
00:09:20
now that we've had two instances in the courtroom of somebody handling physical
00:09:24
evidence that was in the custody of the clerk's office and then the state improperly
00:09:29
we can try at some point and I don't know how we get it in or who we get it in through Chuck is also unaware of the
00:09:34
chain of custody yeah yeah his own chain of custody you follow the chain of custody
00:09:44
from the time it was first put in as evidence at the trial and then every time it's been moved or um examined
00:09:52
again could somebody have not been wearing gloves could somebody have not taken proper precautions putting in and
00:09:58
out of the bag you'd have to go each and every step to see the chain of custody
00:10:04
of that evidence and that's not easy uh judge there's the other video that I provided to the state um I
00:10:16
imagine they have an objection to it do you intend to introduce it this morning I do okay I do so okay address it now
00:10:22
what it is is it's a video of Mr Morin is interviewed um and the portion that I
00:10:27
intend to introduce and it shows Mr more what I think is the state attorney's
00:10:30
office going through and displaying exhibits it clearly exhibits that were entered into evidence that we've seen
00:10:37
here in this in this trial um to the camera crew and includes Mr Morton not wearing gloves um the same way we've
00:10:45
seen Mr and others handling evidence in this courtroom what's your what's your argument on the on on the
00:10:50
request I'm holding this is the shoot this is not SE he's saying this is
00:10:56
mishandling evidence your question issue is has the evidence been tampered with in any form or fashion to make it
00:11:03
relevant I'm holding it now this all right has the shoe been tampered with at
00:11:09
all not at all is that mishandling one way or the other does it does it establish in some form of fashion that
00:11:16
evidence was transferred particularly DNA uh which is which has nothing to do with this shoe right here to the shirt
00:11:24
that was at that crime scene that has no relevance at all so what what's your
00:11:27
objection okay he find it's relevant okay thank you Jud all right bring in the
00:11:40
jury jury's entering have you seen it yet did you watch it with the uh defense attorney
00:12:03
you don't watch it go nah that's all right for you yeah M this is it one with a unique
00:12:24
basketball player on it you see there's the hands these are the ones that were
00:12:28
taken from the um his friend these were removed from him all right please leave your notes
00:12:36
inside the envelopes leave your envelopes on the chair do not discuss the case in any way shape or form or do
00:12:41
any impedant investigation we'll see you Monday morning at 9:30 thank you that was a totally unfair
00:12:48
presentation of the video edited doctored uh and trying to create a a false scenario of tainting physical
00:12:57
evidence that was really not relevant uh to the case the way it was presented it
00:13:01
was indeed uh uh tried to it was presented as a personal attack but retaliate and try to uh make personal
00:13:09
attacks on on any opposing Council no matter what he or she tries to do to me c I think I
00:13:27
cried you didn't amazing job an amazing job thank you thank you yes we're having
00:13:34
lunch tomorrow I didn't realize Joe was as good as he is yeah Joe was unbelievable Joe Knows DNA better than
00:13:40
anybody I've ever seen that's practicing law right now and he did a phenomenal
00:13:45
job and as you know Joe was [Music] brilliant I know that people can only make decisions with the information they are
00:14:27
given right cuz that's how our system is based I feel that way about Spain there
00:14:33
there's a lot of things that they don't know so they're they're being
00:14:36
purposefully misled the only thing I can say is that if if you're watching this
00:14:41
and you've been one of those people whove bought into the narrative that the
00:14:45
United States wrongly picked up Pablo ibar because he was Latino and that there's no evidence against him you need
00:14:53
to get real familiar with the facts of this case because if you don't know know the
00:14:58
facts of the case you would really believe that we have the wrong guy and we don't I was really
00:15:19
scared at first I got to admit I was just scared I didn't want to dentify him
00:15:23
I didn't but I knew who it was cuz I you know I there was the guy you know I mean
00:15:29
I would have never been able just right afterwards they gave me 10 pictures and I said boom that guy you know I mean I'm
00:15:35
he was a [Music] guy Fred you and I should do this together what that's me sit down with
00:15:57
Pablo and and just go through this trial with him because no one knows it better
00:16:04
than him there are subtleties here every time I talk to him and I think I've
00:16:08
learned a witness or I think I've learned something I learn something new when I start talking to him about it
00:16:14
hopefully you you guys start breaking up Witnesses deciding who's going to handle
00:16:18
who so you go sit down with with Pablo and say okay I'm handling I don't go see
00:16:22
clients I got to go see this guy that kills me that's my point I can't work in
00:16:26
the jail I don't hear well there I'm going to go I don't need anybody else I
00:16:30
mean we don't need the whole team for that I'm going to sit there and we'll do
00:16:33
it again later but I'm going to work up Foy for whoever whoever's doing it'll
00:16:38
all be organized it'll be nice every thought that Pablo has had for 22 years
00:16:43
about Foy will be considered it was going to be me and Allan Al and I thought he would live a little longer
00:16:52
than he did I was very surprised to hear he passed but you know cancer does that
00:16:57
it it was sad I really felt bad because he's such a good lawyer and we lost him on this case
00:17:03
Allen's knowledge of the case equal only Pablos and Allan put everything together
00:17:09
for me he was just a genius at that so he's a huge loss to this case I have read every single
00:17:15
transcript of all the trials I've already know the facts inside out I've got to put them in a
00:17:22
place where I want them because with Allen dying I've got to be prepared to do everything everything I'm more
00:17:29
familiar with the case than anybody good morning Mr Foy good morning so let's talk about then what you saw
00:17:39
getting in my van I was pulling out and I was going up the street and I was looking ahead of me and I saw two guys
00:17:44
getting in the car in front of Mr Casey's house um describe how he appeared to you that day
00:17:53
through those periods that you were able to observe it youngest white male black hair short crew cut like a marine
00:18:01
cut scruffy face looking did you identify any of the photographs on July 15th in what's label
00:18:11
as lineup a which is now 6 yes I did um they're number one two and three at the
00:18:17
top photos and then photos four five and six at the bottom was one and five you picked one and five you pick two photos
00:18:27
yeah generally what police do is that they select people who look remotely like the
00:18:43
suspect rather than select people who match the description Foyd tells the police the passenger had a scruffy face
00:18:57
two people in the lineup have scruffy faces the other four people don't if Foy
00:19:04
doesn't consider the other four people functionally there are not six people in the lineup and as it turns out
00:19:13
Foy says well I'm not sure if it's one photograph or or the other photograph
00:19:18
but the two photographs that he identifies both have scruffy faces you can't be very confident and say it's one
00:19:26
of these two people you recognize uh that photo yes I do and is that a photo of the live lineup that
00:19:37
you asked to attend yes that was yep and then did you pick out any individual in
00:19:42
that lineup number four you particularly told the police number one and number five were
00:19:51
persons that might have committed a murder yeah and then when you went to had live lineup isn't it true the only
00:20:01
person there was number five the scruffy face person that you saw in the first photo
00:20:10
lineup well he was there yeah was number one there no I don't recall that but
00:20:15
what I did recall was number five was there and he wasn't scruffy anymore when Mr Floyd did the live
00:20:25
lineup identification you know lo and behold picture that we had of Mr iar he's got the same haircut he's got the
00:20:31
same mustache lo and behold the day you know the day of the live lineup where you bring Foy in Mr iar changes his
00:20:39
appearance is that a coincidence the only person in the live lineup that he saw in the photo array
00:20:47
was Pablo so how do we know that what he really did was choose the person that he
00:20:54
saw the M of the murders or is what really happened is he choose chose the person that he saw in the photo array
00:21:03
and that's that's the question and we think that the answer is clear all right you ever testify
00:21:16
differently I don't know maybe could have been all right it's been a lot of
00:21:20
years a lot of years and several testimonies and and what are you saying you change your testimony every time no
00:21:27
I just don't know I ask you if you ever testified different yes or no do you
00:21:31
recall no I don't recall you you've got the testimony let me see what I said maybe I testify maybe I did it it's
00:21:39
been too many years I don't know maybe I've testified so many times I understand that we'll get to that a
00:21:46
little bit Yeah there people's memories change over time and also Gary foy's
00:21:51
memory changed about what he thought he told the police so sometimes he said he thought he told the police one one thing
00:21:59
and other times he thought he had told the police something else I I don't think he was lying but memory is not a
00:22:06
perfect machine so I'm not surprised to see that his memory changed over time yeah he has to do cuz benel swears
00:22:16
that he would never show up yeah we got to take a break yeah explain it to him Che
00:22:26
yes can I have 3 minutes abely let's take 10 ask him for 10 H ask him for 10 what let's take 10 J can we
00:22:36
take 10 cuz I they want to go over a couple things ladies and Gentlemen let's
00:22:39
have you step back in the Jury Room for a couple minutes please leave your old pads on your
00:22:48
[Music] chair so if people select somebody from a lineup because this person looks
00:23:04
familiar but he looks familiar because you've seen this person's photograph
00:23:09
before that's a problem that that increases the likelihood of identifying that person even if that's not the
00:23:17
criminal I think it's clear they Tim me showed you some photographs right that
00:23:21
was on a flyer am I correct yes they should here's where here's where you get
00:23:25
him before he does the photo lineup right so he says they show me they were blurry they they wearing hats they
00:23:31
weren't looking they were looking down looking down wearing a hat but how do we know and then he says
00:23:39
ultimately you to ultimately you asked to do a live lineup yes before that they showed me 10
00:23:45
mugs the 10 mugs are separate from the blurry frows with the hats that doesn't
00:23:49
mean that he saw this that's we're going to going to bite Us in the ass we're
00:23:54
going to get where's the other where's the other black and white sketch it's in the file
00:24:00
it's right there where's where's the quote there it's it's page 19 and
00:24:08
20 I can't be that it's only 12 Pages it's probably number four but he
00:24:15
says in he says in his testimony somewhere that they go how some Pap does it help right now does that help what
00:24:24
help I'd say number four I mean there's nothing it's no more clear he
00:24:31
picked number four I like Pablo he knows everything about the case he knows every
00:24:37
bit of the testimony he knows everything that I understand how it is he's anxious
00:24:43
he's nervous PE anybody would be but uh I'm going to do it the way I think it's
00:24:49
best to do it we can't switch up right know we has if he claims an illness yeah we could switch
00:25:02
on I'll do it if you want huh okay yeah they're going to be direct anyway but he didn't knowbody he's
00:25:11
brought out the facts of I don't want it coming out what he worried about you know we I think we would need a
00:25:30
little more than just that Fred's been on the case for years and he's been
00:25:36
preparing for that cross what happened what happened to all your transcripts you just walked up there with him did
00:25:42
you bring the wrong ones he doesn't know if he saw the fire before after just do
00:25:46
the way he says it he sees something blurry when Fred was 50 he was like the best at that sharp I mean you'd watch
00:25:53
him and just go wow that was fantastic he knows everything it's hard to tell this is not
00:26:02
easy stuff I mean Fred is getting [Music] old is Fred going to keep going or are
00:26:18
you guys switching or something there's no switching you can't switch there one
00:26:21
lawyer one wit but if anybody can do it it's in I can't find it in my whenever you're ready judge I bring
00:26:45
in the [Music] jury Joe Fred totally bodged Foy I mean he doesn't have any of the transcript
00:27:07
straight I mean how do you how do you come in here at at the moment of truth and he he don't know what the
00:27:14
transcripts say it is it is it is what it is but I'm just saying he didn't get
00:27:19
that we we know we miss some points the jury has no idea all right before you were shown that photographic lineup
00:27:28
were you shown shown a flyer not to my reconnection let me show you your testimony who is this from That's from
00:27:42
the grand jury they never showed me a flyer okay so your testimony here is incorrect that they showed you a flyer
00:27:48
at some point can I see that it never says they showed me a flyer all right they showed did that was
00:27:58
on a flyer am I correct that no no let's read up here let's read okay I tried to
00:28:03
make a composite they didn't really have a lot they didn't have anything
00:28:06
ultimately they showed you some photographs right that was on a flyer am I correct that was Mr Morton asking you
00:28:13
do you remember seeing that yes they showed me something and I said well I know you it could be I didn't really
00:28:20
know very blurry and they all looked like they were wearing hats would that be what they showed
00:28:26
you yeah something like that I guess I don't know okay all right that was before you
00:28:32
saw the photo lineup right and then again this is the document I just show you correct yeah can you show that
00:28:41
to the jury not yet not yet no cuz you can't tell anything judge I you can't
00:28:46
tell anything out of this it's so blurry excuse me don't try that again what you
00:28:51
don't show anything to the jury the attorney's handle that all right yes sir
00:28:59
any further questions on Cross Fred is a very successful very good trial lawyer his methods are
00:29:21
unique Fred is not somebody who's going to write out a cross-examination Fred doesn't want to hear from the
00:29:29
client he's not going to sit there and tell you this is what I'm going to say
00:29:35
he's not going to go through the cross examination Point by point he doesn't do
00:29:38
that he hasn't done it for 45 years he's not going to start now we're the
00:29:43
lawyers you know this is our case and I like Pablo but you I'm not having somebody tell me what to do I've been
00:29:51
doing this forever and uh I'll listen to him but you know when you have 50 family members
00:29:58
sitting around telling you what to do it's difficult I feel like sometimes I don't
00:30:18
know if Fred really wants to be in this because he has told us he's read everything which frankly I don't believe
00:30:25
what have you really done you you read and I know it's a lot to read but is that worth everything we've paid you I
00:30:33
don't think so we didn't pay you just to read we would be stupid I don't know if he's angry or
00:30:41
he's mad does he want more money and that's what makes him feel this way I
00:30:44
don't know how do I know he doesn't get upset and then goes to say something to
00:30:48
the state because he's pissed up you know what I'm saying to give our tactic
00:30:53
or because I don't know he just doesn't seem happy right now to be honest in the end if worse comes
00:31:00
to worse we're really going to have to rely on Joe and Benji that is my only
00:31:04
saving grace I don't know I just do a lot of praying a lot of praying Pablo I'm going to put you on
00:31:20
speaker phone is that okay PB Benji's here and I'm on my house phone so he can
00:31:26
hear I don't care about who had a better career who career started who hasn't
00:31:32
done that what I care about is winning this cage and the Fred had that today is not a person that I look at and say to
00:31:42
myself you're the best attorney in the room I don't know what he used to be
00:31:48
before but the one that that I've had in this Tri I'm not impressed but I would I
00:31:53
wouldn't I can imagine how he won all these cases and he had this career he had because what he's done in my Cas has
00:32:00
not been has not been up to my standards let alone maybe an attorney standards and I'm worried I'm worried that he's
00:32:07
telling me he's going to do this he's telling me he's going to do that I I I
00:32:10
went over things with him and then when he gets up there he just goes again and does his own ad live ad live and then we
00:32:16
we don't get a whole bunch of stuff and I am very worried about that I care about showing the jury explaining to the
00:32:22
jury in detail why you should find me not guilty so you have a decision to make I don't know I don't I
00:32:34
don't with Fred I don't know man they didn't get the cross-examination they expected from
00:32:41
Manzel and Foy so we see this breakdown that the confidence that either Pablo or
00:32:48
the family have in Fred that was the I probably the only time or first time in his career where
00:32:54
someone said you're not getting up I got a text message that Tanya decided Jo was going to do cleto I said hey you
00:33:04
guys brought me that up with you normally I would I would have fought with them all but I'm not going to sit
00:33:07
there and get into a fight with with you know my own client and the others if I have to do it I will but uh Joe's going
00:33:15
to cross-examine him so that's where it [Music] is [Music] white male white shirt with a white H
00:33:50
over his head back I was three more shots1 751 the Miami day home invasion is one
00:34:09
thing that's probably the most unknown fact about this case that most people
00:34:14
don't know about that no the jury can't know that that's prejudicial they had not a clue that the
00:34:21
person who was standing before them Pablo iar was sitting in a Miami date jail for a home invasion 2 weeks after
00:34:29
he killed my sister the jury was never told that and they can't be told that I don't know how
00:34:36
somebody commits a crime like that and then a few weeks later goes and does almost the same exact thing like we
00:34:43
don't know if the cops didn't come if those people would have lived he just got caught that time and
00:34:50
who knows how many times he did it before not getting caught if you're thinking about it it in
00:34:56
a trial for the for the Miramar murders they shouldn't be able to bring in any other bad acts that Pablo may
00:35:03
have done cuz that doesn't prove whether or not he did this crime right you don't
00:35:07
want the jury to assume well because you did one other home invasion you must have done this
00:35:18
one there's one uh positive invocational uh shoe print of was a property of Francisco R and could have been the
00:35:27
footboard that made the impression his other buddy his other roommate was wearing these and then his second
00:35:32
roommate was wearing these these are the ones that were taken from ringcom his friend when they were
00:35:39
arrested in Miami during the course of the robbery these were removed from him during the other
00:35:45
robery if you look at a picture of Francisco ranone from 1994 look like the guy in the video he also looks like it
00:35:52
it could be him and that could explain some other things the weak weak weak week weak sample that they say matches
00:36:00
Pablo on that blue t-shirt so maybe the contamination doesn't happen in the lab
00:36:04
it happens in the Lee Street house maybe the murderers are people who hang out at
00:36:09
the Lee Street house but not Pablo but they never bothered to investigate it was actually the uh defense in Seth pen
00:36:16
Al's case that uh ring con was the the other person at the scene his lawyer Hillyard maldol argued that the person
00:36:23
in the Hat in the sunglasses was Ren KH con not p and the shoe prints matched that guy's
00:36:29
wearing the shoes from the murder how did we not convict that how do we not bring that guy
00:36:37
in the cops were n doesn't look like him what do they know that guy's wearing the
00:36:42
shoes from the murder a [Music] crazy [Music] State your full name spelling your whole
00:37:08
name for the record my name is Francisco [Music] Alon uh I want to talk about uh your relationship with Mr ebar
00:37:24
and how it developed once you met him you said that was in what year did you meet him in
00:37:29
93 and how did your relationship develop with from 199 mostly uh parties and went
00:37:37
to parties and clubs together was Casey Nickelodeon one of those clubs it was are you familiar with a home or a
00:37:48
house I'm just going to record to as the Le Street house yes sir it's a party house every night there
00:37:58
was girls in that house and a different group of guys but the main group was Pablo E bar uh Seth penol Francisco Ren
00:38:06
con for short and Jee clco imagine a group of four or five 20-some year old guys they're not married they don't have
00:38:13
kids you know they're not really working full-time jobs so they're hanging out
00:38:19
smoking some weed drinking alcohol going out to the bars and nightclubs at night
00:38:23
working girls home that's it night after after night after night if he's going to handle the
00:38:34
evidence to his gloves on the table okay I'm not going to take it out of the bag
00:38:38
um just want to to show the bottom the shoes that appears to have a basketball player on it see those shoes
00:38:46
yes okay do you know if you've ever had those shoes on I probably have I probably did where did you get those
00:38:54
shoes those shoes I didn't I the shoes weren't mine I I never bought them shoes
00:39:00
uh we used to we used to wear clothes we to change each other's clothes uh before
00:39:04
we went out so I probably bought them shoes from APO I'm not sure who whose shoes they
00:39:09
were did other people wear each other's clothing in that house during that time
00:39:14
yes sir would that include shoes also everything [Music] yes the tend to prove that Pao Community
00:39:27
crime it tends to prove that ring Community crime bad though of course it is it is potentially difficult evidence
00:39:35
for us though because if you think about it there's no reason for any evidence in
00:39:42
the Le Street house to match up with the crime [Music] scene take a look at this portion of the video from stat
00:40:25
exhibit I see the person that's uh in front there walking out shirt see that sir I
00:40:34
do is that you sir that's not me they were Pablo was upset cuz R con came and he said that he didn't commit
00:40:43
the murders of course you know that was the stupidest question I've ever heard
00:40:47
asked of a witness did you is that you in the video committing the murders no of course not
00:40:53
it ring con's testimony was horrible for the defense R con came in as a good
00:40:58
friend of Pablo's uh and put the shoes on Pablo's feet uh our defense was going
00:41:04
to be yeah the shoes match but they're not Pablo's shoes they're RN cones RN
00:41:10
con looks like the guy in the video Ren con lives in a Lee Street house where there was a tech 9 he's the
00:41:17
alternate suspect so Mr ringcon did you have anything to do with the deaths Academy of Sakari Sharon
00:41:30
Anderson re Rogers any of those three people killed in Mr sar's home no sir were you there involved present no sir
00:41:37
any way did you help out a plan in any way no way I don't have any further questions
00:41:44
thank you cross examination I don't think you what are you saying saying don't ask
00:41:58
him anything I can't hear you don't ask him anything I'm thinking maybe why
00:42:04
because all he can do is hurt us he didn't hurt us at all right and there you okay with that Pablo's not okay with
00:42:12
that you go ahead what we can ask him PA of sh whatever you ask him is going to hurt you he didn't
00:42:22
identify I why want to ask is that I no Jesus Christ he identify he's he told
00:42:34
me for real boo this is no questions you heard H it's too dangerous what do you think he's going
00:42:48
to say cross examination we have no questions if you would let Mr rone know that that we may recall him uh in our
00:42:58
case but we have no questions at this time Pablo gets very caught up he believes that people are going to do
00:43:06
what in his mind is the right thing so if we stand up and ask ring con is that Pablo in the video Pablo knows Ren con
00:43:14
is going to say no but we don't know that we know he probably for self-preservation is going to say yeah
00:43:21
that's Pablo in the video right so he want us to cross-examine R con there was nothing to
00:43:28
gain from asking him questions it would only have gotten worse because we're
00:43:32
sure the prosecutors told Rin con that we were going to blame him for the murders so he was there to help
00:43:50
himself did you want to talk to him yeah go ahead no I want I want to talk to him
00:43:55
alone would do you want to talk I'm to Pablo's lawyer just going to ask you
00:44:00
what your phone number was so I could call you and talk to you on the phone number
00:44:06
anything you you need to stay here for a few minutes because I'm going to tell
00:44:10
the judge what Mr Morton's doing right now Mr Sinclair man want to take that
00:44:16
exhibit down judge before you leave I I I got a small issue on the yeah we need it on
00:44:25
the record let's have Mr ringcon come in please morning Mr ringcon want you to
00:44:33
grab the witness stand again please I apologize for bringing you back in you're still under roath Mr Ron okay
00:44:45
Mr KCK uh sure Mr R con uh I followed you out as you were walking out so I could get your phone number so that we
00:44:52
could call and talk to you later on the defense team on Mr iar's team uh you
00:44:56
understand that correct uh you refuse to do that explain to the court why you refus to speak to me I don't refuse I
00:45:04
just want I want Mr Chuck to be pres okay do you believe that he represents you somehow no but I just rather have
00:45:11
him you have some kind of deal or agreement with Mr Morton I do not uh so basically you're saying you refuse to
00:45:16
talk to any defense attorneys on the case unless Mr Morton personally is present with you correct correct correct
00:45:23
okay how many times have you talked to Mr Morton about the case today and so you just showed up and you had a meeting
00:45:30
with him this morning correct all right uh did he assure you that you're not
00:45:33
going to be charged with anything in the case no he did not uh did he tell you that you're just a witness in the case
00:45:39
you told me I was a witness yes okay uh if you were informed by the judge now that uh both sides have the right to
00:45:45
talk to you anytime that they want that there is no requirement that Mr Morton be present with you that that's not true
00:45:53
uh would you be able to understand and follow that instruction from the court first of all did anybody ever say that
00:45:58
that that I had to be present no you did I tell you that it's your choice if you
00:46:02
wanted yes choose to speak to anybody you want to defense and and and after he said that and refused to walk away
00:46:09
that's when you refused to speak to me correct correct okay no further questions all right thank you Mr record
00:46:16
I appreciate it accept that I let the ref record reflect that the witness walked outside with Mr Morton he's not
00:46:22
present uh he's again giving him more instructions but there is no requirement
00:46:26
that he be present uh in any contact that I have with this person I have the same access as the prosecutor's office
00:46:33
and you can see that I'm being restricted my understanding is he's not refusing contact with you he's refusing
00:46:38
to talk to any member of the defense team without the State president why does he need the protection of Mr Morton
00:46:44
personally on this case what has he been told uh this this is I I would submit this is misconduct I think this is the
00:46:54
way they handle all their Witness I think all of their Witnesses are told not to cooperate with the defense uh the
00:47:00
court knows that this is this is illegal it's a bad I don't find any evidence of
00:47:05
them instructing the witness in any way that's inappropriate the witness is saying I
00:47:10
don't want to talk to the defense without the state there so what was the problem then of my walking up and asking
00:47:14
for the guy's phone number why was I not allowed to do that by Mr Morton why did
00:47:19
he interrupt my sentence and tell the witness you don't have to speak to anybody unless a member of the process
00:47:26
unless I am present with you are you asking me to do anything at this point yes I'm I'm moving for administra at
00:47:32
this point in the trial the mode for mist trial is [Music] [Music] denied we had no idea where ringen was
00:47:51
coming no idea I was a surprise we were told through third parties from the ebar
00:48:00
family that BR coh's not helping the prosecution um so we stayed away from them there was no obstruction at all the
00:48:09
judge found that there was no obstruction a witness is entitled to talk to anybody he wants to and in fact
00:48:15
that was my instruction to him you want to talk to Mr culich uh fine anytime you
00:48:20
want to just remember you have the right to have uh the state attorney present during those conversations if you want
00:48:27
to so at no time did I ever say do not talk to Kevin KCK I can't explain to the
00:48:34
witness his or her rights that's what I did explained his rights to him he understood apparently Mr K didn't like
00:48:43
it Chuck is uh still a very very tough competitor he plays to win uh in past trials with Chuck I would say that uh if
00:48:54
I had a weak judge a judge who didn't really know the law that well uh chuck
00:48:59
would affirmatively move in and stop the judge from making a mistake when he knew
00:49:04
it was going to be reversible error Chuck actually did that a couple of times today you know Pablo was shocked that
00:49:10
his friend Francisco Ren con flipped on him and I think what he forgets is that people always care about themselves
00:49:17
first right no matter what relationship you think you have with somebody their relationship with themselves is always
00:49:23
much more important so when Ren con believe they have something to gain to help themselves they're going to change
00:49:29
their testimony don't let the jury no judge I don't see that you know it had any
00:49:45
effect on us it's just just BS just full of crap they're always going to present
00:49:53
stuff that hurts us I mean you've been there you've done on us and everybody
00:49:56
gets down about it what you do you know you don't get down about it you just
00:50:00
fight back think we're losing right now huh ask me after clco were you sure right away that that
00:50:14
was Pablo on that tape yeah someone you hang out with you know what I'm saying
00:50:20
you see them on tape shocking the history of of Pablo and Jee k is they were friends clco gets out of
00:50:28
prison Pablo takes him in lets him live in the Lee Street house and he finds out
00:50:34
kesco is stealing from me and kesco was taking drugs at the time and you know he
00:50:39
was in a in a rough time so he kicked him out of the house my name is from T SS i e r have
00:50:47
you ever been known by uh another last name yes clco while growing up did you ever come to
00:50:59
know a person by the name of Pablo ibah yes do you see Mr iar in the courtroom today yes I do would you point him out
00:51:06
and describe what he's wearing for us pleas uh he's wearing a blue suit okay what was your relationship
00:51:13
with him at that time like I said at first we were just acquaintances and then we became friends
00:51:19
eventually we became very close did you live with Mr eard in any time well he let me uh he let me sleep
00:51:28
on his couch there for for a couple of a week or 10 days do you recognize uh this style of
00:51:39
gun this one what do you recognize that to be what kind of gun tech 9 you ever handled handled a
00:51:48
gun like that before yes when and where at Pablo's house on Lee Street when you live with yes did you have any
00:52:01
information that may be relevant to this case yes tell us basically then what do you
00:52:11
know um that morning uh the Sunday morning they came in in the middle of the night
00:52:20
close to the morning Pablo went into the into his bedroom and he came out asking where was the tech uh where was
00:52:30
the tech it's normally under the under his bed in the case but I had it that
00:52:36
evening uh you've never said this before have you no you've testified in many
00:52:44
proceedings PRI proceedings or several PRI proceedings to this correct yes this is the first time you sang that yeah why
00:52:51
I really just didn't want to be that close to a murder I didn't really thought maybe I somehow I could
00:53:01
be implicated for holding a murder weapon you know very shortly before uh this happened U so continue
00:53:08
you said uh fa ebar as you where was the gun how did you respond I said I've got it I had it on
00:53:16
me and uh he's demanded to have it which I gave it to him and uh then they left
00:53:25
they who is that Pablo and Seth left with the tech 9 what is he standing there at 5: in the
00:53:36
morning holding the tech 9 in his hands and then he hands it over them that's
00:53:42
what his testimony was and it's just it's unbelievable and so you have to say
00:53:48
how does that just come forward 24 years later for the first time when we know that the state had access to him and we
00:53:56
don't know what that's about what what happens in those conversations and and
00:54:01
I'm not I'm not saying that anything unted or improper went on but why does
00:54:10
he do that today why is it changing and I think I think he was shown to be a liar in the past he was shown to have
00:54:18
lied at the trial and I think for him once a liar always a liar [Music] uh 125 this is the video so taking a look
00:54:56
at this video where I've stopped this video at 4.07 you recognize the person in that
00:55:03
video yes you point to it and describe who that person is that's Pablo Pablo ebar yes the same man you've
00:55:20
identified here in the courtroom today yes sh [Music] my [Music] [Music]