00:00:04
[studio music] [music playing] Pablo was convinced
Gene Klimeczko will never come to court and
say anything bad about me.
00:00:22
He won't do it. CHUCK MORTON: 125. So this is the video itself. Do you recognize the
person in that video?
00:00:37
GENE KLIMECZKO: Yes. CHUCK MORTON: Could
you point to it and describe who that person is.
00:00:43
That's Pablo. CHUCK MORTON: Pablo Ibar? GENE KLIMECZKO: Yes. CHUCK MORTON: The same
man you've identified
00:00:48
here in the courtroom today? Yes. CHUCK MORTON: I don't have
any further questions, Judge.
00:00:54
[siren] I think it's the
elevator, I think, Judge. The fourth floor. [laughing] Other than that--
00:01:13
I didn't mention my
bailiff is telepathic. He can sense-- No, I'm listening
to the radio.
00:01:18
[laughing] BAILIFF: If I was like that,
I'd be working in Vegas, Judge. [music playing]
00:01:23
In my mind, that's the lie
detector test just going crazy, and I'm hoping
some of the jurors
00:01:28
thought the same exact thing. HILLIARD MOLDOF: They're lying. They're all lying.
00:02:31
But back then I think
he really said anything. When they first come to him,
and they go, who's in here,
00:02:37
they were saying to
him, show us your shoes. They thought he
was in the murder, and he's been-- just came out
of prison two weeks before.
00:02:43
He'd just come home
when this thing happens. So they're looking
at his sneakers.
00:02:47
He knows why they're
looking at his sneakers. I think he was involved, so
a scared guy says anything.
00:02:55
Oh, it's them,
it's them, anybody. No, don't look at me. Look at everybody else.
00:02:59
REPORTER: --former roommate,
there is no question. HILLIARD MOLDOF:
Well, I don't know
00:03:02
if this should be on
camera or whatever, but I think he was there. I think he did the murder.
00:03:06
Not inside the house-- outside. [intriguing music] So there's been a
theory thrown out there.
00:03:12
There's a car that comes. Four people are in it. Two people go into the house. Two people wait outside.
00:03:20
The one guy with the
shirt goes outside, brings them the keys
to the Mercedes. Those two guys who were
waiting leave in the Mercedes,
00:03:27
and the two murderers leave
in whatever car they came in. And who Gary Foy saw were
not actually the murderers.
00:03:36
They were the other people. FRED HADDAD: I don't
think there's any question there was a third person.
00:03:47
They were focused
on what they had. Once that they got
that flyer together, there was never
anything they were going
00:03:54
to do to investigate much else. They figured they
had what they needed. Manzella causes a lot of
doubt in everyone's mind.
00:04:03
PAUL MANZELLA: And
that's still the mystery to this particular case. How did they get here?
00:04:08
I mean, unless they walked
here, there's no other means of transportation to get here.
00:04:14
That's still a mystery. Who got them here? Because there was no car left
behind if they did bring a car,
00:04:20
so we don't know which of the
persons brought them here. We could have suspected
that it was Rincon.
00:04:26
It was suspected that
it was Klimeczko. Anyone that may have lived
at that Lee Street address
00:04:32
very well could have
driven them here. JUDGE: Cross-examination. Mister Morton? Sir, just one other thing.
00:05:07
Did you receive or get any
rewards for the information that you gave to the police?
00:05:13
Yes. CHUCK MORTON: From whom? GENE KLIMECZKO: Crime Stoppers. CHUCK MORTON: How much?
00:05:19
GENE KLIMECZKO: I think
it was a thousand dollars. CHUCK MORTON: How
did that come about?
00:05:25
After the statement,
one of the detectives mentioned there's a Crime
Stoppers reward out for this.
00:05:32
If you call them, you
can get the reward. So I did. There you go. No further questions.
00:05:39
JUDGE: Thank you. JOE NASCIMENTO: Referring
to the 2012 transcript, volume three of four, page 330.
00:05:45
Call the following
questions and answers. Question. OK, and I asked
you, did you ever
00:05:50
try to collect a Crime Stoppers
reward of a thousand dollars in this case in return for
giving testimony to the police
00:05:55
that night?
Answer. No.
Question. And did the police tell you
that you could get that reward
00:06:00
that night if you would
help them the next day and give a statement? Answer. No, they did not.
00:06:07
So when you testified
in 2012, was that a lie? I was with the
impression it's anonymous.
00:06:13
[intriguing music] JOE NASCIMENTO: From day one,
they offered him something. He accepted it, and then
they all agreed to keep
00:06:18
it a secret for 25 years. Under oath, he denied ever being
given anything by the police.
00:06:25
The police denied ever
giving him something. Chuck Morton denied
it ever happened.
00:06:30
So is it possible that the truth
is that he made up that story to the police? Well, we know he was
paid the next day.
00:06:36
We know he was addicted
to drugs at the time. We know he didn't
have any money. So for the detective
to go up to him
00:06:41
and say, look, this is what
we need you to tell us, and we'll make sure you get
this Crime Stoppers money--
00:06:48
CHUCK MORTON:
Klimeczko certainly knew something about the
case and the people involved.
00:06:55
He took various positions. He must have been going through
some sort of turmoil himself.
00:07:01
His loyalty to his friends,
and I think in the long run, his sense of conscience
and justice to the family
00:07:09
won out over his initial
loyalty to Pablo Ibar. Isn't it true that
your use of drugs
00:07:20
absolutely obliterated your
memory during that time period? No, it's not true. Isn't it true you've
testified to that several times?
00:07:28
Yeah, I've already
admitted here that I lied in previous
court proceedings to do with this case in order to
try and protect Pablo and Seth.
00:07:40
JOE NASCIMENTO: And
throughout all of those times, the defense
attorneys in the case
00:07:46
made allegations and called
you a drug addict, right? Yes. They called you a liar?
00:07:54
Kind of like you're doing. [laughs] Right, yes. JOE NASCIMENTO: You never
in '97 or 2000 or '99
00:08:00
said, you know what? I'm gonna tell the truth now. You continued in
your lies, correct?
00:08:05
Correct. JOE NASCIMENTO: Because you
say that you were protecting my client, the guy who had
kicked you out of his house,
00:08:10
accused you of stealing. You were protecting
him, correct? At one time, I loved Pablo.
00:08:14
We were great friends. JOE NASCIMENTO: And you
came into a courtroom similar to this, raised your
right hand, swore to the oath,
00:08:22
looked at a jury,
and lied to them? [laughs] Yes, I did. JOE NASCIMENTO: OK. [music intensifies]
00:08:34
And it was just so
incredibly difficult when you're dealing with a
witness who comes to court
00:08:40
and says, everything I
said before was a lie. Now I'm telling the truth. Because every time I
confront him with a lie,
00:08:47
he's just gonna say,
yeah, that was a lie, but now I'm telling the truth. And how do I combat that?
00:08:55
How do I rebut that to the jury? ALEXIS SUCHARSKI: I think it
was just him growing as a person
00:09:01
and realizing that telling
the truth about things is important because he, I
guess, was a troubled kid,
00:09:09
and you do crazy things then. So I guess as you go
get older, some people realize what they need to do.
00:09:44
Klimeczko became very,
very, very problematic, and he's picking
Pablo out on the video
00:09:51
and saying, that's him. And plus you have
the enhanced videos and the enhanced pictures.
00:09:57
I think it became difficult. I
think Klimeczko really hurt us. You could ask questions
differently on some things.
00:10:07
I can't say because
it's not my-- I don't want to
criticize anybody. I wish Fred cross-examined
Klimeczko because he
00:10:16
would have tore him up. There was a decision made to
have me cross-examine Klimeczko
00:10:21
at the very last minute,
which was horrible for me because I hadn't
prepared for it.
00:10:26
So there was a long two
days of preparing for that. I think Fred would have
been a better personality
00:10:33
for that because Fred would have
just been like, you're a liar. And he may have
even said, in court
00:10:39
because he gets away with that. Four lawyers is
a horrible thing. Initially Alan Ross
was gonna handle
00:10:49
probably a little
bit more-- a majority of the witnesses at trial. The idea was Fred was gonna
handle Klimeczko and Manzella,
00:10:56
and Benji and I would help. It was perfect. We were all in the same office. We all knew each other.
00:11:00
We knew how we worked. There was no learning curve. Personalities were in clash.
00:11:06
Obviously things changed
dramatically when Alan passed away,
obviously, and somehow
00:11:14
very quickly it just changed. And no one talked about it. It just happened,
and what happened
00:11:20
is then no one stepped
up to be the leader because no one
allowed anyone else to step up to be the leader.
00:11:27
And we had an
overly-involved client and a way too involved family. But so much of our time
was spent repeating things
00:11:39
and discussing things, and
it was impossible to get to a decision. WOMAN: I told him
the same thing.
00:11:46
JOE NASCIMENTO: So I don't
think anyone would have ever been permitted to
step up and say,
00:11:49
I'm the leader of this team. I don't think Pablo
would have ever let that happen because
what he did, unknowingly--
00:11:54
I don't think he
did it on purpose-- is he would play us
against each other. And he didn't do it on purpose,
I don't think, but it just--
00:12:01
it didn't facilitate
an effective team. We cannot be effective
giving over so much power.
00:12:10
If I had-- give me
back 25% of the time that I spent and wasted on
talking about the same issue
00:12:19
over and over again with
family and friends and Pablo, just give me 25%, I
would be ecstatic to have
00:12:27
that time to work on the case. JUDGE: Do you have
another witness to call? We do not, Judge.
00:12:39
JUDGE: Have you had a chance
to talk with your client about his decisions?
JOE NASCIMENTO: We have.
00:12:42
All right. Mister Ibar, please
raise your right hand. Do you swear to tell the truth?
00:12:47
HILLIARD MOLDOF: Yes, sir. You go ahead and stand up. Are there any other witnesses
that you wanted your attorneys
00:12:54
to talk to about the possibility
of giving evidence that they haven't talked to yet?
00:13:04
Do you follow what I'm saying? Yeah, I follow
what you're saying. OK. Are there any objects,
whether it's documents,
00:13:09
photographs, things
like that, that you wanted to put into evidence
that they have not?
00:13:15
How are we going to get
everything into evidence? JUDGE: That's up to you. I don't give advice on how
to put things in evidence.
00:13:20
But what I don't want to have
happen is that the trial's over with, and you say, Judge,
I wanted to put A, B, and C
00:13:24
into evidence, and they didn't. So I'm trying to find out that
now before you rest your case.
00:13:30
When you rest your case, Mister
Ibar, you're saying, I'm done. I'm not putting on
any more testimony.
00:13:34
I'm not putting on any evidence. There's nothing wrong
with that decision. I just want to make sure
that I'm reminding you,
00:13:39
this is what
happens in the past, that you put on
an alibi defense, saying I couldn't
have done this crime.
00:13:44
I wasn't even there. And I've not heard that
evidence in this case. Is it your decision not
to put on that evidence?
00:13:49
Yes, sir. JUDGE: All right. Your attorneys have
a responsibility to give you their best
advice, but the responsibility
00:13:56
for making the decision
of whether to testify or not is always the
client's, not the lawyers.
00:14:01
Have you had time to
talk to your attorneys about these decisions? Yes, sir. JUDGE: OK, what's your
decision, Mister Ibar?
00:14:06
Do you wish to
testify, or do you wish to maintain your silence? I'm not testifying.
00:14:11
JUDGE: OK, you wish to maintain
your right to remain silent. With the advice
from my counsel.
00:14:13
[somber music] BENJAMIN WAXMAN: This
was a strategic decision about whether or not
to present the alibi--
00:14:32
one of the most important
decisions in the case. But it was a decision
that Pablo made
00:14:38
with the advice of
his four attorneys, and Tanya would
have done anything. She was ready.
00:14:45
She would have testified. She would have done everything
that she needed to do. And what we had to do
is determine the risks.
00:14:53
Do I believe that
her story is true? I do believe her story was
true, but the question is,
00:15:00
is how would it have come out
to the jury, the presentation of that alibi testimony?
00:15:07
And that's a huge risk, but
it's a decision that was made. JUDGE: As I mentioned
to you yesterday,
00:15:25
the attorneys will have
the opportunity to present closing arguments to you. We've reached that time.
00:15:30
The attorneys will now
present their final arguments. CHUCK MORTON: You know,
the more things change,
00:15:45
the more they stay the same. [serene music] This case has been part of
this court system since 1994.
00:15:57
Lots of things have
changed since then. KEVIN KULIK: None of
the evidence-- none
00:16:02
of the corroborating
evidence-- shows that Mister Ibar was even there. That's because he wasn't there.
00:16:09
He didn't commit this crime. Truth is like the sun. You can shut it out for a
time, but it ain't going away.
00:16:21
And the sun has come
out in the form of DNA, but things still remain
the same because the DNA
00:16:32
is just one aspect
of corroborating Mister Ibar's guilt. KEVIN KULIK: The prosecutor
and I agree that the DNA
00:16:41
essentially resolves the case. We have the shirt, and
we have the DNA tests. And all of the DNA tests taken
from five different points
00:16:53
on the shirt are positive. We can identify the
person on the shirt-- unknown number one.
00:17:05
And that's what this
case was all about. Who are the people on this tape? That's how we got here.
00:17:11
It's still the same. It's still in evidence,
and it's still running. KEVIN KULIK: Detective
Manzella had one guy who
00:17:19
looked similar to a video, and
he decided right at the start to go after this guy and exclude
all of the other evidence
00:17:28
in the case. This is the guy. This is the guy that we're
going to charge with the crime.
00:17:35
The case never changes from that
time because they had no case, and they had to
solve this crime.
00:17:44
Based on the wall,
based on the evidence, consider this case. You'll find beyond
a reasonable doubt
00:17:56
Mister Pablo Ibar
committed this crime. And based on the law
and the evidence, don't let this man
get away with murder.
00:18:04
KEVIN KULIK: At the conclusion
of all of the evidence in the case, the
only logical verdict
00:18:09
that you'll be able to
render in this case, finally, not guilty
on every count. Thank you.
00:18:19
JUDGE: All right, ladies
and gentlemen of the jury, during deliberations,
jurors must communicate
00:18:23
about the case only
with one another and only when all jurors are
present in the jury room.
00:18:28
Yes, ma'am? If it does go
into the weekend, we don't deliberate
on the weekends?
00:18:34
JUDGE: You don't
stop deliberating until you reach verdicts. Period. Saturday, Sunday, Monday.
00:18:39
It doesn't matter. It's not a vacation. It's work. It's a lot of hard work. OK, anything else?
00:18:47
I thank you very much. You may now retire to
deliberate your verdicts. [somber music]
00:19:24
We don't like to
think about what is or isn't going to happen. Our job is to present the
evidence as best we can.
00:19:30
Our evidence, our job,
is to make sure the jury gets that evidence. Anybody can get exonerated.
00:19:36
Anybody can get convicted. We had our own feelings
about the evidence and how strong we
felt that it was,
00:19:41
but it's, again, that's
the jury's consideration. CHUCK MORTON: It's
gonna be tough.
00:19:47
It's gonna be hard. We've gotta go
through this again. But I think the
evidence is still there,
00:19:53
and we've gotta pursue it. And that's justice
for the family. We've gotta keep going.
00:20:02
DEBORAH BOWIE: I don't know
what a fitting punishment is. I'm not god. But I do know that Pablo
Ibar is where he is
00:20:09
because he put himself there. He could have made
a totally different choice that Sunday morning.
00:20:16
There was no reason
to kill them. So who knows? I will prepare for the
worst and hope for the best.
00:20:26
No matter what happens,
I mean, I've already lived through all of this. Whatever happens, I'm prepared.
00:20:38
BRYAN BONN: It's probably
good to have no expectations. My guess is everything
is on the table.
00:20:48
In other words, it's open. Anything can happen
at this point. We've seen it. JOE NASCIMENTO: When I lay
down last night to go to bed,
00:21:23
I just envisioned
the various scenarios of what's gonna happen. I envisioned the jury walking in
the room and saying not guilty
00:21:31
and what's that
celebration look like. I envisioned being in Spain and
celebrating with all the people
00:21:36
that have supported us. I've envisioned having dinner
with Pablo at a steakhouse here
00:21:40
in South Florida. And then I think about
the other alternative, and how is it going to
impact me if we lose?
00:21:55
BENJAMIN WAXMAN: I've been
with Pablo for 12 years. There's nothing more important
that's ever happened in my life
00:22:03
than this case, this trial. I just think we gave
it everything we could, and it's now in
the jury's hands.
00:22:12
I want I want Pablo to
go home to his family. I want the torture for his
family, for him, to end.
00:22:22
I want the torture for the
families of the victims to end. It ends. It ends if he's
found not guilty.
00:22:31
It ends for everybody. Go far. Go far. Hut. Get the ball. Yes. Oh, you-- [chatter]
00:22:48
Incomplete. [chatter] ... I can't pass it. Let's go. TANYA IBAR: You
just don't know what
00:23:00
those 12 people are thinking. I'm frightened. How are we gonna
get through this?
00:23:06
Am I going to come
home with my husband that we can be with our
family and our children?
00:23:12
Or am I going to
have to come home and explain something else? And I don't think
people realize how hard
00:23:28
or how much that scares me
of how am I gonna do that. [sentimental music] My dad's in jail which
I just don't like it.
00:23:48
I want my dad
back really much. JAVIER IBAR: It feels like
nobody's there for me.
00:24:01
Other people have their
dads, and I don't. Sometimes I feel sad,
but happy because he's
00:24:12
coming home one day. It's gonna be fun
when he comes home. Mommy never told
me the whole story.
00:24:49
She only told me one story. It's like this
tells me the story. Hey, Google, what is Pablo Ibar?
00:24:58
On the website
sun-sentinel.com they say Pablo Ibar spent 16
years on death row, convicted--
00:25:05
the mic's off. Ever every kid has a father
that really cares about them, and they have a lot
of fun with them.
00:25:21
And I wish I could have that. I can't. And now I'm 11, and now I feel
like I'm growing without him.
00:25:37
I just want him home. [cries] I want him home. There's no easy question
with the children.
00:25:52
We did what we thought was best. We love each other, and
you start to realize that life is moving forward.
00:26:04
I'm not getting
younger, and I think that our love is so great. To not allow our
love to continue
00:26:13
on in life for generations, it
was just not fair in my mind. We chose that we
would have a child
00:26:22
in this terrible
situation, and was it selfish to do this to them? Yeah, it was.
00:26:31
For that, I do feel bad because
they don't deserve that, and they didn't choose that.
00:26:41
We did. [cries] So that does hurt me for them. If he doesn't come
home, that does.
00:26:50
I, in a way, hate myself for
that, to doing that to them. But that being said,
I also believe,
00:26:59
even though my kids don't
have their dad home, they are loved-- not only by me, by Pablo.
00:27:04
And they love Pablo. That's a big controversy
over those children. I don't know.
00:27:20
People keep saying that
because of the children, he shouldn't get
the death penalty.
00:27:29
But my dad got
the death penalty, and nobody asked me if I was
gonna be OK when I was 10.
00:27:48
KEVIN KULIK: There's a
99% chance that there'll be a verdict today. It's a very difficult case,
a very complicated case.
00:27:55
It took a long time to try. It all comes down to the jury. Right now, I would say we have a
chance with this one, this one,
00:28:09
this one, this one, and in the
back, this one, this gentleman. So the issue is, do those
people overcome the other ones?
00:28:22
I thought that the
clerk from Dade County would be our best juror. She's gonna be independent
and make the decision
00:28:29
that she wants to make. She certainly is not
gonna be afraid to give a not guilty verdict on a case.
00:28:35
She looks at us a lot. She seems to be very pleasant. It's not the kind of thing
that you would do if you're
00:28:41
about to execute somebody. The only gentleman I
haven't talked about is this gentleman right
here, the bald-headed guy,
00:28:49
because we can hardly see him. He's very difficult to read. He seems to be having
a wonderful time.
00:28:55
He listens very intently to
every argument with a smile on his face, and he
nods as everybody
00:29:01
is speaking on both sides. So you've got me. I don't know. [suspenseful music] All right, we're
back on the record.
00:33:10
State of Florida
versus Pablo Ibar, case number 94-13062 CF10B. Mister Ibar is
present with counsel.
00:33:16
State's present. For obvious reasons, no
matter what the verdicts are, somebody is gonna
be very unhappy.
00:33:23
Somebody is gonna be very happy. You have a right to be
present during any kind of court proceeding unless
you disrupt the proceedings.
00:33:31
So if anybody cheers or claps
or jeers or hisses or makes any noise or reacts physically
in any way to the verdicts,
00:33:38
you'll be immediately
escorted out of the courtroom. Do not disrupt the proceedings.
00:33:43
Please respect the process. Stay ready? PROSECUTOR: Yes, sir.
JUDGE: Defense ready?
00:33:48
KEVIN KULIK: Yes, Judge. Bring in the jury. All right, let the
record reflect the jury
00:34:13
has re-entered the room. Ladies and gentlemen
of the jury, have you reached
verdicts on all charges?
00:34:17
Yes, we have. JUDGE: Please hand the verdict
forms to the court deputy. All right, the verdicts
are in legal order.
00:34:39
The verdicts read as follows. In the Circuit Court of
the 17th Judicial Circuit in and for Broward County,
Florida, case number 94, Judge
00:34:46
Dennis D. Bailey,
State of Florida, plaintiff versus Pablo
Manuel Ibar defendant,
00:34:50
verdict count one. We the jury finds as follows
as to count one on the charging document, the defendant
is guilty of murder
00:34:57
in the first degree as charged
in the charging document. Verdict as to count
two, we the jury
00:35:03
finds as follows, as to count
two alleged in the charging document, the defendant
is guilty of armed
00:35:08
burglary of a dwelling. As to count three, we the jury
finds as follows, as to count
00:35:13
three alleged in the
charging document, the defendant is guilty of
armed robbery with a firearm.
00:35:18
As to count four, we the jury
finds as follows, as to count four alleged in the
charging document,
00:35:22
the defendant is
guilty of attempted armed robbery with a firearm. So say we all, this 19th
day of January, 2019,
00:35:29
at Fort Lauderdale,
Broward County, Florida. Signed by the foreperson. Ladies and gentlemen, as
I explained previously,
00:35:35
that if the jury came back
with guilty as charged, there would be a second
phase of your responsibility.
00:35:41
So you are not excused
as jurors at this time. Obviously, the rules about
communication and investigation
00:35:48
remain in place. You can not talk to anybody
about the work you've done in this case, about your
opinions on the evidence,
00:35:56
about the attorneys,
about the arguments, about anything
involving this case. Do not discuss this case with
anyone, not with each other.
00:36:03
Remember, the only
time you can talk to each other about this case
is inside that jury room.
00:36:07
All right, Mister Ibar
as a jury of your peers having found you guilty
on all counts as charged,
00:36:13
I judge you to be guilty
on all counts as charged. The court will set the penalty
phase to begin on February 25,
00:36:20
2019, at 9:00 AM. Court's in recess. Thank you. [somber music] Thank you. My god.
00:38:13
[phone ringing] JOE NASCIMENTO: It
was predictable. Looking back now, we always
knew this could be the result.
00:39:40
If you asked many
of our colleagues who are familiar with the
case, they would have told you
00:39:45
this was going to be the result. But we never allowed ourselves
to come to that conclusion.
00:39:52
You don't have the
ability to look back and say, well, these are the
reasons why we should lose.
00:39:57
You can think back
and be like, there were a lot of just inferences
and coincidences and just
00:40:03
pieces of evidence
that alone don't do the job but together
pile up and make it difficult to overcome.
00:40:14
So I didn't think
it was going to come out not guilty in
that moment, but it could have been a hung jury.
00:40:19
They could have reached their
end Friday night, go to sleep, come back in the morning, let us
after you've thought about it,
00:40:24
If you're willing
to go any further. No, I'm not. All right, we're done, Judge. We're deadlocked.
00:40:29
That, to me, was a
real possibility. BENJAMIN WAXMAN: I was fully
prepared to hear not guilty.
00:40:37
I just was fully prepared,
and I was prepared to hear it the other way. But that's what I
thought it would be.
00:40:51
My fear is-- I still fear this, and we have
to find a way to navigate it-- to maintain the relationship
and the trust of the family
00:41:02
as we go into the
stage of the case where we're attempting
to save his life and to navigate the questions
and concerns that are going
00:41:13
to be lodged at us over
the next couple of weeks as it relates to our
representation of him
00:41:18
over the past three years. [somber music] It's a very interesting
situation and scenario
00:41:26
that we are going to find
ourselves in because it will be their natural reaction
to question strategy
00:41:33
decisions, perceived failures. We lost. They are going to--
they've already begun to,
00:41:42
and they will question every
decision that's been made. And we expect it. I expect it.
00:41:47
It's predictable. I didn't ask a question
I should have asked. I didn't object to something
I should have objected to.
00:41:54
We didn't call the alibi. On advice of counsel, we
didn't call the alibi. Maybe we should have
called the alibi.
00:41:59
And it's going to turn
into-- it's natural. Things are gonna be
our fault. I mean,
00:42:05
nobody's gonna
talk about how well they think I did on the DNA. BENJAMIN WAXMAN: I'm
gonna talk about that.
00:42:12
You are, but nobody's
gonna talk about how well the cross-examination of
a certain witness went
00:42:18
because that's all for nothing. Our perceived success of during
the various stages of the trial
00:42:26
are all for nothing
at this stage. TANYA IBAR: They attorneys
did not want to use the alibi,
00:42:53
and they still
really felt that it was not going to be beneficial. And in the beginning, I
fought very hard in saying
00:42:59
that, yes, we should do this.
We should do this. It's crazy. This is the truth. Why shouldn't we say the truth?
00:43:05
This is what I talk about
the justice in this. They felt that the jurors would
be affected if somebody didn't
00:43:12
believe me or believe my
family, that everything else that we have put up, they would
have just then totally ignored.
00:43:19
I don't think people really
want to hear the truth. Why am I still
sitting here today?
00:43:24
Why have I given up my
life to live this life? For what? Because I know the truth.
00:43:29
It haunts me. It haunts my sister. When she found out the verdict,
she was hysterical, screaming.
00:43:35
I should have testified. I should have told the truth. It haunts her. He's out there, OK?
00:43:40
Yeah. You know what I'm saying? Why are you still
going through this? Why do you wanna live this life?
00:43:45
Why do you want to
put your family-- I've done this to my family
because I've stayed with him,
00:43:51
so I've put everyone
through this. This is because of me, so
I have a responsibility.
00:43:57
So it is. It's hard. It's hard to see what
I've done to everybody, what I've had to put everybody
through, what I've had to put--
00:44:04
just everything. It's very hard when you
know a man, when you have seen with your own eyes a
man who is not guilty,
00:44:13
and to have to go
through such a life, is one of the hardest
things in the world.
00:44:20
It's not right. I saw him, I will stand
in front of any court, sacrifice whatever it
would be, to do that.
00:44:33
And it's very hard sometimes. And I know that, yes,
Tanya is my sister, but I wouldn't lie for the death
of somebody who has suffered.
00:44:42
I mean, we wouldn't want to
do that for anyone's family, but I know the man
I saw in that room.
00:44:48
It's sometimes it feels
like you're being suffocated because you want to scream.
00:44:53
You want to scream so loud,
and what's so upsetting is that nobody listens. [intriguing music]
00:45:11
If it's the truth Monday,
it's the truth Monday now, and it's gonna be the truth
Monday in the year 2022
00:45:18
because it's the truth. So it doesn't evolve. You don't all of a sudden
have a memory moment where you
00:45:23
remember the love of your life. Oh, my god, he was with me. That's not believable.
00:45:29
We didn't hear
anything about Tanya. I met her. She was coming to the trial
in the very beginning,
00:45:34
but she was just
the girlfriend who started dating him apparently
after he was arrested.
00:45:40
And it wasn't until
seven years later that Tanya
miraculously remembered that she was with him when
her family went to Ireland.
00:46:08
What word do you want me to use? Pathetic? I don't know what the word is. I don't have the mentality.
00:46:14
There's some word
they give to women like that who fall in love
with men who are incarcerated.
00:46:19
I don't know. I don't understand it. The fact that Tanya would go
through the elaborate attempt
00:46:26
to make up an alibi--
let me say this. If you have to lie
for someone, that means they're probably guilty.
00:46:33
If I have to lie to say you
were with me when I know you were not-- I'm not a psychiatrist, but she
definitely needs to go see one.
00:46:46
She's angry. She's hurt, and I feel bad
because that hurt has caused her to become an angry person.
00:46:59
And she loves her sister. I have sisters. I love my sisters. I would die if that was
my sister on that tape.
00:47:09
So can I be mad at her
because of her anger? No, I can't. I have no right to
be angry with her.
00:47:18
Does it upset me that she
thinks Pablo is that person? It does because I know that man.
00:47:23
And he didn't do this, and he
didn't do that to her sister. MICHAEL IBAR: So what do you
think about the trial ...?
00:47:45
What do you think
happened with the jury? Who do you think was
on our side maybe?
00:47:49
And who-- Well, that Black
lady, but I think with the glasses, that young
lady, when they saw the video,
00:47:56
she was--
[chatter] The one who was standing up. Yeah. MICHAEL IBAR: Obviously there
was somebody on our side.
00:48:02
They didn't come back
with a verdict right away. I don't know how many. PABLO'S FATHER:
First this first.
00:48:07
MICHAEL IBAR: First
is the penalty phase. They're still gonna decide
whether he gets a life
00:48:10
sentence or a death sentence. PABLO'S FATHER:
That's what I mean. We have to be strong.
00:48:14
MICHAEL IBAR: I mean, I know
how difficult the road ahead is. People have to understand.
00:48:18
It's even dramatically
harder than it was before. Yeah. MICHAEL IBAR: Because
now it's a second trial.
00:48:26
It's really, really
difficult. He asked me, am I ever gonna
get out of prison? I don't know what to say to him,
00:48:33
I want to make him feel better. I want to like give
him hope, and I try to. But it's like I don't
want to just be a fan
00:48:43
and talk fantasies to him. What am I supposed to say? Yeah, you're going to get out?
00:48:46
I hope.
[somber music] I pray. We're gonna fight, but
there's a chance that he will never get out of prison.
00:50:52
[suspenseful music] [music intensifies] [phone ringing] Hello? JOE NASCIMENTO: Hey, Mike.
MICHAEL IBAR: Hey, Joe.
00:51:30
TANYA IBAR: Joe? JOE NASCIMENTO: Hey, Tanya. Let me get Benji on. TANYA IBAR: OK.
00:51:34
JOE NASCIMENTO: All right.
BENJAMIN WAXMAN: Hey, Joe. JOE NASCIMENTO: Hey, Benj.
BENJAMIN WAXMAN: All set.
00:51:36
JOE NASCIMENTO: I've
got Mike and Tanya. Are we putting Fred
and Kevin, too? BENJAMIN WAXMAN: That's so.
00:51:41
I'm trying to tune Kevin in. I'm putting you on hold,
so you do what you got to do
00:51:46
and then just merge the call. BENJAMIN WAXMAN: OK. All right. [phone ring] Waxman.
00:51:54
BENJAMIN WAXMAN:
OK, we've got Fred. Fred? FRED HADDAD: Hey, guys. BENJAMIN WAXMAN:
We've got Kevin.
00:51:59
Kevin? [chatter] JOE NASCIMENTO: So the reason
I wanted to talk to you guys is 8:35 this morning one of
the jurors called Judge Bailey
00:52:09
and told him he regrets the
decision that they made. TANYA IBAR: Holy-- But he wouldn't tell me who.
00:52:16
[suspenseful music] He wouldn't tell me if it
was a male or a female. We saw the jury struggled.
00:52:22
We thought there was
a holdout, maybe more. This juror must have been
battling with this all weekend,
00:52:28
and immediately first
thing in the morning called Judge Bailey. What we have here
is we have a juror
00:52:35
who is looking to go
back on the verdict or at least expressing
their displeasure
00:52:41
or concern about it. All right, so just so-- I'm gonna talk to Pablo, but
my intention, Kev and Benj
00:52:49
and Fred, is to prepare a motion
for interview, very brief, just cite the rule, a motion
to compel the identity
00:52:56
of the juror that the judge had
a conversation with because he won't tell us who it is.
00:53:00
I think he absolutely
has to identify the juror that he had contact with So a motion to compel the
ID, a motion to interview,
00:53:07
a motion to continue
deliberations, I think, has to be filed. And then once he denies it all,
we have to move for a mistrial.
00:53:54
[music intensifies] KURT COLLINS: After the verdict,
I put a lot of thought into it,
00:54:04
and I felt like I
was kind of caved into the pressure to conform
because I really felt like I
00:54:13
was really the only juror
that was kind of adamantly on the not guilty side. And so I went home,
and I realized--
00:54:23
I kind of did a lot of thinking
and really agonized about it. I was very anxious.
00:54:29
I was very depressed
basically that whole weekend. [somber music] I wasn't sure if Pablo
was innocent or not,
00:54:35
but I didn't feel like
there was enough evidence to say that he was
guilty definitively
00:54:45
and felt like I didn't give
the verdict that I should have. [music continues]