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Sword and Scale contains adult themes and violence and is not intended for all audiences.
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Listener discretion is advised. She said, I'm going to the defense of hell. And she said, it's all over now and it's done.
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There's a new show coming, so stick around after the music and you'll find out more.
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This is Season 2, Episode 282 of Sword and Scale. A show that reveals that the worst monsters are real.
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Well, I lied. Not about the show that's coming up. It is coming up. But about telling you about the show that's coming up.
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Because I'm not going to tell you anything. I'm going to keep it a secret this time.
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You're not going to find out a damn thing until it comes out March 3rd. I'm it's easy to lose sight of the cracks forming beneath the surface.
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Born into a world of addiction, mental illness, and unspeakable secrets, one can grow so accustomed to the madness that it becomes invisible.
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Each day brings a new crisis, a new fire to put out. And amidst the smoke and shadows,
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it's impossible to notice the creeping darkness closing in. The familiar feels like survival, until it's not.
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Like the proverbial frog sitting in a pot of water, the rising heat goes unnoticed.
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There's too much to manage, calming the parents' paranoid delusions, steering a sibling away from another destructive path, trying to hold it all together.
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The storms are so familiar that they barely register anymore. And while tending to each fresh disaster, something far more dangerous is below.
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It's a slow, insidious bubbling. And before there's any time to escape, the water has reached a dangerous boil.
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In 2007, 21-year-old Lauren Kukla found herself shouldering the full responsibility of her
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family's physical and emotional well-being. Though she had small children of her own, their needs aren't what I'm talking about here.
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Lauren was not only caring for her immediate household, but also managing the endless conflicts between her late schizophrenic mother and her four older siblings,
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none of whom could seem to get their lives together for some reason. Conveniently, they all lived in the same area near Macomb, Michigan.
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and Lauren was stuck carrying a burden far beyond her years. Though her siblings' houses were chaotic, messy, and filled with conflict,
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Lauren's house was different. Though she was young, she and her family lived a white picket fence kind of life
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compared to her two older sisters and two older brothers. Her sister Elizabeth, or Lizzie, was on drugs and had already lost custody of her children.
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And her sister, 30-year-old Jennifer, or Jenny, the oldest of all the siblings, was walking that same tightrope.
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How Lauren turned out to be a normal, functioning member of society after growing up in a household like this is really a mystery.
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On Saturday, February 3rd, 2007, all while trying to juggle her career and her young children's needs, Lauren got a call from Jenny.
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As usual, her oldest sister was having a meltdown and needed help. She had told me that she believed that Elizabeth Kukla, or Lowry, I'm sorry, her sister,
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and Lisa Favry, the neighbor growing up, F-A-B-B-R-I, had led her to believe that they were going to have her kids taken away.
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They were going to call the CPS. As far as I know at that time, that was a truthful statement.
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Lizzie denied it when I went to her place of employment later. But at that time I could see her saying something like that because she said it to me before plenty of times in the past couple of years She said she hates Jenny She wished that she would just clean up her act and blah blah blah whatever
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Because Lizzie got her kids taken away. She thought that she was fighting for them, but she wasn't fighting for them because she was always doing crack and shit like that.
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So she wasn't really working at it. But she wanted anybody to blame that she could.
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So now I can see her wanting some kind of revenge or wanting Jenny to feel the same pain as her.
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Lizzie wasn't threatening to report Jenny to CPS because she was genuinely concerned about her nieces.
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She just hated her sister and wanted to see Jenny lose her kids, too. Nice, right?
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You could hear that she was afraid that her kids may be taken away. She wanted to make sure that they were, you know.
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Do you believe she sounded intoxicated at the time? No. I didn't hear. I mean, Jenny was an alcoholic as is, so I couldn't tell the difference either way.
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You know what I mean? She wasn't a stupid drunk kid by that time. So when she called, I know that she, you could tell that she just wanted to make sure that the girls were,
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I mean, that the house was taken care of because she did not want to lose her kids.
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She was concerned. The whole family knew Jenny was an alcoholic, but her habits had gotten worse over the prior months.
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Finances were tight, and she was spending any extra money she had on beer and all of her free time drinking it.
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The kids, three dogs, the pet mouse, none of them were being cared for properly.
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And the trailer they lived in was an absolute disaster, as you can imagine. To top it all off, they didn't even have running water.
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How long were the pipes frozen for? She had said something to me on Thursday about it.
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So just a few days? Yeah. Were they frozen or just shut off? Frozen. Everything worked.
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The heat worked and everything. It's that the furnace broke the day before and Al came and fixed it that day.
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Al was Jenny's boyfriend. He lived nearby and the two were still friends. So did your sister maintain that trailer on her own with her daytime from McDonald's?
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Yes, for the most part, yeah. She kept the heat on and kept the water running? I think there was one time in the spring that she had her gas turned off and she called me.
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It was after. It was fall. because my mom had already passed away, she called me and she said,
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she said, you've got to call Grandma. And now I'm going to go between Grandma because I took it upon myself
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to make sure everything was taken care of with my mom and taken care of with Grandma.
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Everybody kind of looked at me as the one who would help them if they needed something from Grandma.
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So she asked me, I need money for rent. I need money to fix the car. I need money to get my license back.
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I need money to, you know, all this stuff. And all I could think was, Jenny, you've got to get clean.
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You're drinking. You know, I can help you. And Grandma goes, I wish I didn't give her a lecture.
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I said, you have to give her a lecture every time, otherwise she doesn't know how you feel, Grandma.
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I said, no, this is your fault, you know. And I just, she did have it shut off a couple times,
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but not to the extent where the girls didn't have anywhere else to go or, you know, couldn't take care of themselves and stuff.
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And they always had food in the fridge and stuff like that, so. Unfortunately, food in the fridge is not the only criteria CPS looks for
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when deciding whether a home is safe for children. It looked like Jenny might actually get a visit from a social worker, and it wouldn't be the first time.
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CPS had taken her kids before, but she knew that if it happened again, she might not be able to get them back.
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Lauren didn't want to be at her family's beck and call. She knew Jenny's situation was largely because of her own unwillingness to get help for her alcoholism
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and whatever else was going on in her drama-filled life. Her chief concern were her two nieces, Jenny's eight-year-old daughter, Alexa, apologies if I just activated your devices at home, and five-year-old daughter, Ashley.
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So Lauren, the family crisis manager that she was, gathered some friends, a guy named Russell and a woman named Jessica.
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She offered them ten bucks for their time and drove them over to her sister's house to help her clean it up.
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So then I went to Al's house to pick her up and she... You went to whose? Al Vanderbos, which was the man where she was at.
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He lives in a trailer park as well. They're all within a two-block radius. So I drove over there after I asked Russell and Jessica if they wanted to make $10.
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I asked Stacy too, but she said she didn't want to go in that house because she knew it was too dirty.
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She didn't want to deal with that. Okay, so you picked up Jenny and the two kids?
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Yeah. No, I picked up Jennifer. and the kids stayed there with Al. And I had Russell or Jessica in the car with me.
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Okay, so you picked up Jennifer and Al, what's his husband? Vander, Vanderbos, I think.
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Vanderbos, I think. Vanderbos, I'm not sure. Vanderbos? Yeah. And is that her, is she a boyfriend?
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Ex-boyfriend, still friends kind of thing. Of Jennifer? Yeah. Okay, kids were lost there.
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Yeah. She got in the car, she was acting fine. She just said, you know, let's go right now.
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We'll get this done. I said, okay, Jenny, you know, we have a couple hours or whatever, we'll get it done.
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She was upset. I remember her saying something. She was upset because she thinks Lisa and Lizzie
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were gonna call. Where did she get that information? She said that when she was over at Elizabeth's house
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earlier that day, she was on the phone with Lisa. Lisa had told her something that triggered a memory.
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how it's possible that she may have been hypnotized into being a bad person and that like who was hypnotized Jennifer she said that she Lisa said something that triggered a memory of some kind into her realizing that she may have been hypnotized during her teenage years
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Jenny was probably grasping at straws, trying to find reasons why her life turned out as terribly as it did.
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And why she couldn't seem to be a good parent like her little sister, Lauren. Gee, I wonder why.
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Being, you know, hypnotized is an answer. That takes the blame off of Jenny herself.
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It's one of the things that alcoholics do. Just trust me on that. Though she wasn't actually hypnotized, Jenny hadn't had an easy life.
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Sure, her situation was a result of her own decisions, but decisions are often influenced by past experiences.
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And Jenny's life had been rather traumatic. Jenny always had problems. She believed that she was worthless.
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she believed, I mean, she was raped and everything else. Her mom didn't take care of her.
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You know, her, like our mom was on meds a lot. And she probably thought, you know, for some reason I'm not being taken care of because,
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you know, my mom brought this horrible man into her life. You know what I mean? Like she just, she just kept getting different kinds of thoughts about that.
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So. So, um, when, uh, back to, you told me the other day, your, your natural father was convicted
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of, uh, rape of Jennifer, um, at what, at what age, like how old, I think, was it over
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a long period of time? I think from like 12 to 15. 12 to 15. She was molested from Joseph, her father's brother, Robert, uh, he was actually impaired,
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and she told me that he molested her as well growing up, younger ages. That the neighbor at the residence that I live in now,
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one of the old neighbors that lived there, like their nephew or something, molested her as well.
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She was raped. Just, I mean, walking down the street kind of thing she told me before.
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My other sister, I remember she was raped. She got pulled into a van and raped. They had it pretty rough.
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Even after a childhood full of abuse, Jenny managed to pull something of a life together.
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She had full custody of her two young daughters, had a place for them to live, and worked as a manager for McDonald's.
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She wasn't addicted to hard drugs like her sister Lizzie. But alcoholism can be more difficult to beat because it's normalized in society.
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I mean, try going out. Just going out on the weekend. Try to do something and not be around alcohol.
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It's impossible. Plus, you know, no one gives you a side eye if they see you sipping on a can of beer.
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How would they know it's your 12th drink? On the other hand, if you have a needle hanging out of your arm like a lot of the residents of Portland,
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someone might actually call the cops on you. Probably not a Democrat, though. Anyways, Lauren, Jenny, and their posse of helpers arrived at the trailer and got to work.
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So, um... So, yes, you guys went to get bottles. No, the whole time the kids weren't here.
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No, the whole time the kids were at Al's house. And Jenny told me, go pick up some more beer from Al's and bring it back before you go to the store.
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And we went to Al's house, and I grabbed the beers, and we had... How many beers you grabbed?
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Seven or eight. Okay, and how many of you guys were having some before that? I didn't have any.
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Oh, she was, Jenny. because they didn't have any. Al had said that she had some before.
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Okay. And I don't really know. And she had some at her house, too, and she drank a couple while we were cleaning for the first, like,
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hour and a half or whatnot. We went to return all the bottles that she had. I mean, she had some in her shed.
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She had some in her sink. She had some all over the house. So we were trying to clear the clutter,
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make some money for garbage bags like bulbs, water, because her pipes were frozen so we could, you know,
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heat it up or wash whatever. And so we went to the store. we came back and we just continued to clean and she was still alone you came back yeah
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um like I said we had forgotten to bring her that beer so she was really happy when we got back
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because she had her beer again she's like I'm gonna let's make sure you get some we brought her
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some more beer and um at that time we just finished up cleaning Jessica was um getting lazy
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playing with the dogs or whatever and then me and Russell were in the grills better finishing
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out vacuuming and stuff. And then I went and did the bathroom myself. Me and Russell did
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the back bedroom. And Jenny was doing the kitchen and the dishes and stuff, trying to get everything out of the kitchen.
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At this point, Jenny was becoming more paranoid with each beer. After the others left, Jenny confided
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in her sister that she feared they too would call CPS on her since they had seen
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the state of the house firsthand. Jessica might know because I know Jenny was afraid
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that Jessica was going to call the CPS because of something that she said, which I don't know what she said.
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I have no idea. She's like, you know, they're going to call her. You know, they probably think I'm, you know, horrible and all this stuff,
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and I don't know what she said. Jennifer was afraid Jessica was going to call CPS?
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Yeah, she was afraid Russell and Jessica were going to call, too. I said, why would they do that when they were here helping us, you know?
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And she was afraid that they were going to do something, too. So I'm like, I don't know.
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Did either Russell or Jessica do it all? Never. Man, what a mess. We better call CPS.
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No. In fact, in the car when we were going to Ailes' house and I told her that she was afraid, she told me not to tell you guys, but I was like, you're not going to call the CVS, right?
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And Jessica was like, no, I'm taking away from my mom too. She's like, I got taken away from my mom too, and I would never do that to you.
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I want to help these kids. This was on the way to Ailes? Mm-hmm, to pick up the girl.
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She was telling me this stuff. And Jenny had told me right before we left they were getting in the car and she was like just make sure they don call Lauren And I think she was really fearful that they would call So you guys left to go get the girls Yeah And brought the girls back We left to go get the girls And I helped them start getting ready and all of a sudden Jenny showed up
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Yeah. How did she get there? She ran. It's two streets away. And she thought, that's kind of weird to me because she thought we left a cell phone there,
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which I asked her if that cell phone twice was hers because I knew she lost hers.
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But I know she had a Boost Mobile. This was a Motorola. In fact, the phone is in my car right now.
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But I said, you know, I don't know where that phone came from. And she's like, I was like, I moved it.
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I put it on the end table like three times. And I even asked you if it was yours.
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And she's like, oh, okay, yeah. But why would she run over there? She knew we were coming right back.
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It's possible. I didn't turn it on or anything. It doesn't turn on, but I'm sure it works.
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But it just seemed, it struck me as odd that she would run all the way over there,
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even though we were taking the kids back there. You know what I'm saying? So just to summarize all that, Lauren and the others left Jenny at the trailer while they went to pick up Jenny's two daughters, Alexa and Ashley.
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Jenny must have been suspicious that they were conspiring against her to help CPS take away the kids and literally ran several blocks to the house the girls were staying at under the guise of returning a cell phone.
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So I think that she was even fearful at that time that I would try to take the kids.
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and um which i don't understand but whatever so we jenny got in the back and i have a
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the third row seating station wagon she got in the back with lexa and the first thing she said
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when she opened the back and i was already in the car and ashley wasn't um i have a like a booster
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seat for her this was big enough for my daughter and big enough for her and um she's like lauren
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why would you ask lexa if she does if she even liked me i'm like i didn't say that and i was
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like, Lexa, did you ask her that? Like, I was being calm with Lexa, like, how you talk to kids, you know,
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and she's like, she's just quiet, you know, she didn't say anything, and then she's like,
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Jenny goes, are you lying, Lexa? And, you know, not angry, not angry. She was more concerned for,
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you know, why she would lie to her, and I said, Jenny, I didn't say that, and I said, I talked to
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them earlier this week when they were at my house, and I said that, you know, mama tries her boss,
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you know, and that was the end of the conversation, and we drove home, and the kids were just,
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What about, did Lexa actually ask her? I don't know. I wasn't, I mean, I got into the car.
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There was never an answer to the question because you asked her? No, she never answered the question.
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And then Jenny asked her and Lexa never answered. She never answered the question, but I know she was quiet.
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And Lexa had a tendency to do stuff like that, just kind of tattle or like say, you know, mix up the words or something.
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And then Jenny would get not upset, but she would get like, why do you have to lie to me kind of thing, you know?
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and so we drove home everything was fine and we were you know I had the radio on whatever
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but she opened the door and she went in and then the girls you know they went in right ahead of me
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I don't know how we got mixed up but anyway I was like no stop because they weren't taking out
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their shoes and stuff I was showing them a door to take out their shoes and put their coats and
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stuff you know and I said they're like wow and they're looking around they're all excited because
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the house was so much cleaner than it was before like literally 300 times better right and um I
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I mean, even I probably weren't used to having a place to hang the coats and put the shoes.
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Right, because they weren't used to it. And they urine so, I don't want to cry, but they urine so bad to have that kind of home.
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That home, when they were at my house and stuff, they knew. They knew the difference.
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They were playing with my kids on Thursday night. They loved it. You know, I was teaching her how to wash from top to bottom in the bath kind of thing.
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You know, you have to rinse it all out. I was in there, you know, washing my teeth and stuff.
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I was like, you've got to get ready for bed. You have to, you know. I was just thinking to my head, how does she not know this stuff at, you know, almost nine years old,
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and she doesn't know how to take care of her own body yet. Like, I'm running water, I guess.
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Right. Well, I mean, Dad, I know it was the frozen pipes, but other than that, I mean...
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Other than the frozen pipes, the group had successfully gotten the trailer up to par.
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Lauren thought she'd fixed the problem. Surely Jenny had no reason to be concerned anymore.
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Lauren went home that night to take care of her own household and planned to check in on Jenny and her kids the very next day,
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right after her shift at the local family restaurant. She expected to see Jenny lounging around,
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enjoying the day with her girls in their neatly clean trailer. Lauren certainly hadn't pictured herself
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dialing 911. 21-year-old Lauren Kukla had just cleaned up another family crisis.
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One of her sisters, Lizzie, had already lost custody of her children, and her oldest sister, Jennifer, was about to meet the same fate.
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That was until Lauren rallied a group together to help Jennifer tidy up her house in preparation for a CPS visit.
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The next day, Sunday, February 4th, Lauren planned to drive over and check in on her sister.
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But she was wholly unprepared for what she'd find. You worked what time, like 11 or 10?
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I worked from 10. I was there at 9.50 all the way to 5 o'clock, 5.15. After work, Lauren picked up her kids and drove over to Jenny's trailer to check in.
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When she got there, the front door was hanging open. This immediately struck Lauren as odd.
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After all, it was winter in Michigan. I pulled up. I walked up. I called the name because the door was open, like I said.
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So you called? I called her name and I was on the phone with my friend Jason at the time telling him all about how, you know, how my sister was being annoying, you know, I sniked or whatever, you know, and how she's pissing me off.
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So I'm going over there right now to see if she can find her phone in my car or whatever.
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And he's like, I'm like, OK, hold on one second because the door is open and all the lights are off.
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He's like, OK. And then I called her name and then he was I was like, OK, anyway, I'll, you know, I'll call you later.
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I hung out with her. And then Jenny comes to the door dressed like a hobo, and like in a skirt, jeans, and sweaters, and whatever.
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I don't even know exactly what her tops were, but I know jeans and a khaki skirt were on the bottom.
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I was thinking that was really weird, and so that's how Mom used to dress sometimes when she was being stupid.
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What Lauren meant by when she was being stupid is that her mother used to layer odd, unmatching pieces of clothing.
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during bad mental health episodes. Increasingly, Jenny was starting to act more and more like her mother.
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She would ramble on about nonsensical things, have bouts of extreme paranoia, and just, you know, act erratic.
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Now, Lauren could see a visual representation of the transformation that had been taking place for years
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as Jenny's mental health quietly declined. She had a khaki shirt layered over a pair of jeans.
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Her hair was disheveled, and like Lauren said, she looked like a homeless person.
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Anyway, so I go out to the door. I left the kids in the car. I'm planning on just stopping at the door saying, you know, let's go out to eat or whatever.
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I did pretty good at work. I was going to say, let's find your phone and do whatever we've got to do today.
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I noticed first thing that the dogs didn't run up to me or run outside or where the hell were the dogs?
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I know the door was open, but usually they're visual, you know. I don't know where they are.
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So I didn't hear any barking, and I go, where are the girls? Because usually they at least have a TV on or something with the radio on.
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She said. You hear her out of it. I was in the door, literally in the doorway. So you stood in the doorway.
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You didn't actually go in. Yep, I stood in the doorway. You're kind of like reading it maybe.
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Yeah, and then she said, could I have a cigarette? And that's when I took my first step into the door, you know, into the actual house.
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You gave her a cigarette. She asked for a cigarette, and then I noticed it was too quiet.
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I said, where are the kids? She said, she's standing back towards the kitchen table
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where we were sitting the night before, there in the corner, and she said, I killed them.
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And I said, no. She said, I'm going to the defense. All I said was no. I mean, I don't remember if I said anything else,
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but I just said no, and not like no, like no, you know, like no, you know. And she said, I'm going to the defense of hell.
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and she said, it's all over now and it's done. She wasn't looking at me. She was looking at the ground and it was Clay's face again.
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And it was monotone voice too. And it is done like that. It is done. And she goes, I'm going.
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And she looked up and she goes, you have to call the police on the floor. And I said, okay.
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I said, but show me how you tried to kill yourself. And as soon as she showed me the wrist,
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I had already backed up enough to where I was almost out the door at the doorway again.
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And she showed it to me, and I was on the porch by that. Like, I took another step back when I was on the porch, or the deck or whatever.
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And I was starting to go, okay, Jen, you stay here, keep calm. And that's when I was like, you know.
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Hit 911. Yeah. Before her police interview, investigators hoped that allowing Lauren to listen to her own 911 call over again
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would jog her memory and help them piece together what was going through Jenny's mind.
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Well, like, I mean, if you could listen to it right now, I was really calm in the beginning
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because I was still outside of the car when I called. And Jenny was like, are you calling?
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And I said, I wanted to say no because I didn't know I was fearful for my kids in the car and for myself.
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But I was walking around to get the address from the car. Were you like in the driveway or around the street?
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I walked around the back of the car because I'm thinking, I'm looking in the car.
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after, because she showed me a wrist. I'm looking in the car for anything that I could grab out.
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You know what I'm saying? If she comes after me, I don't know. And then I walk up.
00:28:13
Did she have anything in her hands? No, nothing. No, nothing like that. I think she may have been smoking a cigarette
00:28:18
because I gave her one. But I gave her the lighter to use and she gave it back to me.
00:28:24
But I'm walking around the back of the car, standing behind the station wagon, thinking that's the safest place
00:28:28
if I have to run because I know my car is locked and I have the keys in my pocket.
00:28:32
So I'm standing back there, and I'm saying, yes, Jennifer, I'm calling, you know, whatever.
00:28:37
I started on a dispatch. I told them, you know, I don't know what's going on. I know.
00:28:41
And then they're like, ma'am, you have to, you know, you have to tell us. And I'm thinking, you know, what is there to tell us?
00:28:45
I couldn't even fathom it. What am I supposed to say? You know, and I remember telling them that, yeah, she harmed herself, and she said that she killed her kids.
00:28:55
When police arrived at the scene and entered the trailer, they found Jenny pacing around, ready to be taken to the, quote, depths of hell.
00:29:05
Their eyes were quickly drawn to the first bloody scene. Three dead dogs piled up inside a crate.
00:29:13
Jenny hadn't stopped there. She even stabbed the pet mouse inside its cage. As officers made their way to the back bedroom, they could see that, tragically,
00:29:25
Jenny was telling the truth about her kids. Eight-year-old Alexa laid motionless on a makeshift bed
00:29:32
next to her five-year-old sister, Ashley. Their throats had been cut. Jennifer, you know Mark, right?
00:29:40
Been talking to him. Like I said, I'm Dave. We both work here for the sheriff's office, okay?
00:29:46
We want to talk to you about what's going on, okay? But before we do that, can you look at me while we're talking?
00:29:55
Put your hair on your face so I can see it There you go Look at me There you go Before we do that hey maintain eye contact with me okay Before we do that we have to read you your rights okay
00:30:06
You know what those are. You've heard about them. You've seen them on TV. All right, I'm going to read them to you, okay?
00:30:11
Exactly as they are on the list here. All right, and then we're done. I'd like you to sign them, okay?
00:30:17
And then we can talk. We can't talk until we do that, right? Are you cold? I don't want to talk about it.
00:30:23
Are you just nervous? I don't want to talk about it. I don't want to think about it.
00:30:28
Okay. Let me just read you your rights here, okay? Now, you have the right to remain silent.
00:30:33
First of all, Jennifer, okay, take a deep breath, okay? Get a hold of yourself, all right?
00:30:39
Just let them go. Get a hold of yourself, all right? Now you're upset and you've got every right to be, okay?
00:30:47
We've got to go through this, all right? Okay. Do you understand all those? Yes.
00:30:52
Okay. And then the last question is, let me see something. I don't want to talk about it.
00:30:59
Oh, babe, let me finish this, sir. I read these statements of my rights. I understand what my rights are.
00:31:05
I'm willing to make a statement and answer questions. I do not want a lawyer at this time.
00:31:08
I understand and know what I'm doing. No promises and threats have been made to me.
00:31:12
No pressure or coercion of any kind of abuse against me. Okay, do you understand that?
00:31:16
Okay. Knowing all that, do you want to talk to us right now? I don't want to talk about it.
00:31:21
I don't want to think about it. Okay. Okay. Jennifer, is it because you want to talk to an attorney or is it?
00:31:27
I don't even want to think about it. We just want to get a couple things straight to make sure we got everything right, okay?
00:31:34
So we don't want to get anything wrong. Okay. If you want to talk to an attorney, that's one thing, but if you're just a little nervous about it, maybe you can work that out.
00:31:42
You were very cooperative during the forensic exam, which we really appreciate. Nurses were very pleased with that.
00:31:49
Are you cold? I just don't want to talk about it. You want a blanket? No. You can get your blanket or make a circle for yourself?
00:32:01
Okay, so erase my brain. If you erase my memory, then I'd love you for that one.
00:32:07
Okay. Sit tight here for a minute. In case you couldn't understand her, at the end she said, erase my brain.
00:32:17
Erase my memory, and I'd love you for that one. we can only imagine what's in there.
00:32:25
Do you understand what we're trying to do here? You know, like I said, if you want an attorney or something like that,
00:32:30
I can understand it. Just try something down. I'm just talking to you. I'm not in it.
00:32:35
We just want to make sure we got things right. We want to make sure we got them understood.
00:32:39
We don't want to make any mistakes. That's why we want to talk to you. I don't want to, of course, I don't want to talk you into talking
00:32:44
if you want to talk to an attorney, but if you're just a little nervous, we can wait.
00:32:47
We can get you some water. You know, just have you relax a little bit. Okay, get your blanket.
00:32:53
It is cold in there. I'm even cold in there. It's clear that these guys were getting nervous that Jenny may decide not to talk.
00:33:01
So they started to employ a little bit of good cop, bad cop. Just before the one detective was able to follow through on his promise of some water and a blanket,
00:33:12
the other came bursting back into the room. What do you think about that? You want to sit and think about it with a little bit of water and a blanket?
00:33:20
Maybe some water. Okay, well, let me get you some water. All right, you don't want to talk to us? Is that right?
00:33:27
You don't want to talk to us? I don't want to really talk about it. You can ask me something. I can see if I can answer it. I can't promise.
00:33:35
Okay, stand up then. Don't open his back. I can't take him back. They took her back to her cell and planned to try again the next day.
00:33:45
Let me just reiterate, yesterday you said you didn't want to talk to us because you just
00:33:51
weren't up to us. Today you want to talk to us? Jennifer? Today you do want to talk to us without a lawyer present?
00:34:01
Doesn't matter. Okay. When you say it doesn't matter, that means you want to talk to us?
00:34:06
Okay. Give me the broken pair. I just want to come off. Jennifer, do you take any kind of medication normally?
00:34:20
No. At all? Nothing? No. Okay. Nothing for any type of psychiatric or nothing for any type of physical?
00:34:28
No. Once Jennifer really starts to open up to detectives in this interview, it's clear that she absolutely needed to be on psychiatric medicine.
00:34:38
It's not often that we gain access to police interviews of defendants suffering from severe mental illness.
00:34:45
But Jennifer's case is unique. We'll get back to that later. What do you want to...
00:34:51
I don't know. Well, we know why we're here, right? Yeah. Okay. We know what happened. You know what happened, right?
00:35:02
The big question is why. I don't know. I really don't fucking know It's like the night before
00:35:09
Or two nights before that or whatever I just stay up all night long I keep doing it
00:35:12
Every time I close my eyes I keep having these bad dreams Or like Dead people or whatever
00:35:17
And blah blah blah And I'm like Well what the hell This is just weird So I freaking didn't even think about that
00:35:21
Does this happen to you frequently That you dream about dead people or No Never I watch freaking scary movies
00:35:27
None of this scares me First time you've ever had This type of thing Okay Yeah I mean hell
00:35:33
My kid We used to watch this type I see it all the time. Okay. Anyway. So I was like,
00:35:40
up all night for that. No big deal. We'll go next day. No big deal. No problems, nothing.
00:35:43
Would that have been, what day would that have been? I don't remember. I don't even know
00:35:47
what day it is right now. Today's Monday. When did I get here? Yesterday was Sunday.
00:35:52
Okay, so this would have been Saturday morning. Everything was fine And then all of a sudden my sister was there My sister Lauren she the one who calls you guys Right She was at my house and all of a sudden it was like I just kept freaking hearing this like voice in my head telling me all this shit
00:36:06
She's like, Yanny, stop talking to me. Stop listening to the voice or whatever the hell you're doing.
00:36:10
Stop doing it. How did she know you were listening to the voice? I was telling her what it was fucking saying and shit.
00:36:14
It was Saturday morning? No. If I got here Sunday, that would have been Saturday afternoon.
00:36:21
Now keep in mind, the average person would probably freak out upon hearing their sibling talking to themselves as if they're having a conversation.
00:36:31
But for Lauren, this was nothing new. She was no stranger to brushing off the nonsensical ramblings.
00:36:39
She even said to Jenny, stop talking to those voices or whatever it is that you're doing.
00:36:45
In Lauren's sane mind, addressing her older sister's mental illness was at the bottom of the list of priorities.
00:36:53
When Jenny's pipes froze and the trailer descended into chaos, Lauren's first concern was the safety of her nieces.
00:37:02
Basically, she thought, okay, Jenny isn't a danger to herself or them. She's made it this far in life.
00:37:09
Let's just deal with the issues that we can fix right now. which, you know, makes a lot of sense.
00:37:16
And what did you guys do? Were you guys picking things up around the house? Yeah, they were helping me clean up my house and shit.
00:37:21
Okay. I've been drinking way too much in my house with a sack. What were you guys cleaning up for?
00:37:28
She said, I was going to lose my kids. The house was that bad. I mean, it had to be cleaned up,
00:37:34
so they came over to help me clean it up. My sister paid them $10 apiece to help me that day,
00:37:40
and I was going to pay her back the money because I was broke. Did, were you drinking when they were there?
00:37:48
I had a couple of beers when they were there. How often did you drink? You said you'd been drinking a lot, baby.
00:37:51
And how much? Like every day. Maybe about like a 12-pack a day. But I was cutting, I was trying, no, between a 6-12-pack a day.
00:37:59
Okay. Usually by a natural ice beer or whatever. But they came over and they were helping me do that,
00:38:06
and I just started freaking out. And then after they left is when freaking I started to actually,
00:38:11
Do you hear voices when you drink? No. I don't think I've ever had that happen to me ever in my entire life.
00:38:18
It was just like somebody's freaking right in my fucking head. And it wasn't even like hearing voices.
00:38:23
I could hear it, and it was like I was reading it at the same time, if that makes any sense.
00:38:27
It wasn't weird shit. Go to this part of the house. Go to that part of the house.
00:38:30
Go to this part of the house. Go to that part of the house. It was like all nice and sweet at first,
00:38:34
and then freaking it started getting freaking weird, and then it just freaking got evil.
00:38:37
It freaking didn't even tell me, and then I freaking started listening to it, I guess.
00:38:41
Because then I freaking started saying something about freaking people being outside ready to come in and kill us and all this weird shit.
00:38:47
And that freaking I'd have to do this or that. If I don't want my kids to die, do this or that.
00:38:50
And then freaking after like probably about half an hour, hour of that, freaking I finally freaking had told me to get my kids all ready and take them down the street to their friend's house so that they wouldn't die that night.
00:38:58
And then halfway there it said take them back home because they're already killed at that house.
00:39:02
Did you actually take them down the street? Yeah, I did. All of what Jenny is recounting to police had happened after her sister Lauren left that night.
00:39:34
because then you'll find out they're not dead. But don't go over there now. And then blah, blah, blah.
00:39:38
And back and forth and back and forth. And kept saying stuff about how people would come over in there and kill me.
00:39:42
And I'd never known when they'd finally broken the house. So you returned to the house with the girls because the voice tells you not to go.
00:39:49
Yeah, and it went back and forth. And then it got nicer again. And it was like, well, you have to do this and you have to do that.
00:39:53
You know, this is for your girls to make them nice to have you guys. Take care of your kids and blah, blah, blah.
00:39:56
And then it started getting evil again. Were you going to put the girls to bed? Yes, I did.
00:40:01
Were they sleeping on the floor? So we were going to all sleep together on the bed
00:40:04
because it was like, well, whatever, whatever. And then this voice is telling me all this weird shit.
00:40:07
So we were, because we haven't done this in years. So I used to sleep on the couch.
00:40:11
But then we were going to freaking sleep on the bed. So freaking we made up the bed on the floor in the girls' room
00:40:16
and freaking we were going to lay out. I actually laid out in the middle of them.
00:40:19
Lexa was on this side of me. I had my arm around her and I was rubbing her head.
00:40:21
And Ashley was on this side. And that was the same thing with her. And we were going to sleep like that.
00:40:25
We were all like, oh, I love you girl. I have good dreams, blah, blah, blah, blah.
00:40:29
And it was all good like that. And then freaking I got up and the voice started talking to me again and freaking telling me this shit.
00:40:33
Were the girls asleep at that point when you got up? Yeah. Okay. And freaking I actually went to the fireman.
00:40:38
I had the butcher knife up to my neck. And I didn't do that. And then freaking the voice is telling me to do this or that.
00:40:43
And then it's telling me to go kill my kid before the people break into my house to kill him.
00:40:46
And it hurt me even worse than what they were going, what would have happened or whatever.
00:40:49
Just kill him so that it doesn't happen. And I wasn't going to do that. I was just sitting there going and listening with the freaking knife in my hand going, oh, my God, oh, my God.
00:40:55
If anybody walks in here, fuck, motherfucker. So the voices in Jennifer's head were apparently telling her that if she didn't kill her kids, people would break into her house, take them away from her, and they'd suffer a fate far worse than death.
00:41:10
Whatever that is. At this point, she had long stopped drinking beers, hoping sobriety would make all of this go away, but it wasn't working.
00:41:21
At first, Jennifer refused to give in to the voices and follow through with the murders.
00:41:25
Instead, she put the butcher knife she grabbed from the kitchen up to her own throat and considered killing herself.
00:41:33
After deciding against that, she went and sat in the front room, still clutching the knife, and waited for people to arrive.
00:41:41
If the voices were right and someone did break in, she'd be ready to defend her family.
00:41:48
Some time passed and obviously nothing happened. the voices were gone, too. So thinking the whole ordeal was over she went back and laid in bed with her girls eventually falling asleep until morning Yeah go back to at 7 you woke them up put their coat and shoes on
00:42:08
Yeah, and then we were going to go leave and freaking go somewhere there and I was like, no, freaking, we can't leave or whatever, blah, blah, blah.
00:42:13
Where are you going to go, do you think? I was across the street to the payphone to call my dad for some reason.
00:42:17
Okay. To try to have him come pick us up because I was freaking so scared. I don't even know if we even went outside, I don't remember, before we turned back in and freaking didn't.
00:42:24
And then it was like nothing was happening. And then all of a sudden, I just freaking grabbed the knife and did it.
00:42:29
All right. When that happened, where did you get the knife from? I think it was in the kitchen.
00:42:33
And how did the girls get back in the bedroom? Did you tell them to go back? Yeah.
00:42:37
And they went back in the bedroom. And they were scared. I know. And who went first?
00:42:44
Alexa. Your younger one? Bigger one. The bigger one. I'm sorry. I had to chase Ashley.
00:42:51
By the way, Ashley, I thought, freaking, I could have sweared. I was telling Lexa, I love you, you'll never be hurt, blah, blah, blah, I won't let that happen to you.
00:42:58
And then she's like, get Ashley. And I was like, okay. And then I walked out of the friggin' bedroom.
00:43:02
I can't even believe Lexa said that. I don't believe Lexa said it. Yeah, I don't believe that.
00:43:07
I must have heard that in my fucking head. Did she run from the room? Yeah, she was in the sleep hiding under the kitchen table.
00:43:14
This was clearly difficult for Jennifer, talking about what she did to her own two little girls.
00:43:21
You can hear in the audio that she seems to show some remorse, but her train of thought keeps getting redirected away from the worst parts of that morning.
00:43:30
Did you bring Ashley back in the bedroom next to Alexa? Yeah. Is that where she died?
00:43:34
Is that where it happened? I think, yeah. I don't think Ashley died until the bedroom.
00:43:41
Did you carry her back to the bedroom? Yes. But she was, I thought she was dead in the kitchen, but I don't think she was.
00:43:48
I don't think she died until she got back in the bedroom. Did you actually stab her in the kitchen?
00:43:52
Yes. And how did you stab her? Where was she at? Was she on the floor, on the ground, on her back?
00:43:58
Was she standing up? I don't remember. Did you stab her? Maybe I didn't do it in the kitchen then.
00:44:04
I don't know. Okay. But you took her back in the bedroom at some point. Was she fighting you?
00:44:10
No. I don't know. I don't think so. She probably was. I would have had a fuck. You laid her next to Alexa?
00:44:23
Was Alexa already dead at this point? Yeah. And when you laid Ashley, was she dead when you laid her next to Alexa or did you lay her down then?
00:44:32
I laid her down and I think I made sure she was dead. I don't know. When you say you made sure she was dead, what did you do?
00:44:39
See if there was pulp. Can you show me how, can you put the cup down for a second?
00:44:43
show me what hand you held the knife in and show me how you actually what motion you did
00:44:48
I don't know, just like that I think so you're holding your hand up like this and coming down with the knife
00:44:55
you hold the knife like this or like this in the footage, the detective shows two different stabbing motions
00:45:03
the first one he demonstrates is an overhead downward motion while the other is an underhanded swiping upwards
00:45:12
Were the voices still talking to you when you were doing this? They were doing this all day long.
00:45:16
I wouldn't freaking leave my house after I did it. I actually thought I saved them.
00:45:19
And then I started looking around the house and freaking, everything the voices told me the night before.
00:45:24
And the voices were actually even telling me, I think, that freaking they were going to drive me crazy.
00:45:28
So I killed my kids by the morning time. And I was like, no, at one point, I think.
00:45:32
All right. I don't remember everything. It was sometime shortly after 7.30 yesterday morning when the girls died, right?
00:45:39
Yep. okay and then and then how long after that the dogs die you recall not long I was walking around
00:45:46
the house and I kept thinking about freaking weird shit about I was going to go burn in hell now and
00:45:51
demons were gonna come pick me up from the front of my house in a freaking red car with
00:45:56
fingers and toenails with freaking seat covers and shit I don't know it was fuck freaky and all of a sudden I was like the dogs are still alive freaking I'm gonna be tortured
00:46:06
to death when they dropped me down into hell. I gotta kill the animals. Kill the animals, how'd you do that?
00:46:12
Oh, shit. There's more water for you, too. They stuck the knife in it and just went down
00:46:16
and knew she knew they were dead. Were they on the ground? Were you holding them?
00:46:20
They were on a green blanket. But Angel, the big mom, actually got away and ran into the cage and said,
00:46:26
I had to chase her down and bring her back. And I told them it was for their own good.
00:46:29
And you put her on a blanket? Then I threw them in the cage. Okay, and then what are the little ones called?
00:46:36
The puppies, they were Jasmine and what was the other one? Sam. And they were the offspring of Angel? That was their mom?
00:46:50
What kind of dogs are they? I don't know. She was full Pomeranian and I don't know what dad was. She just got pregnant.
00:46:58
Okay. And then what about that mouse and the pet mouse? I had to kill the mouse too.
00:47:04
How did you log it then? I think I broke a snack or something. Did you try to stab it?
00:47:13
Probably. Jennifer had killed every living being in her small trailer. Her two defenseless girls, three tiny Pomeranians, two of them puppies, and even the pet mouse.
00:47:28
And it wasn't just the dog she had to chase down to finish the job. despite their youngest age her two daughters knew exactly what was going to happen and they
00:47:39
tried to get away there's nothing i can say to prepare you for this next part it is absolutely
00:47:46
heartbreaking just to go back just so i can clarify no alexa was killed in her bedroom
00:47:52
was she killed right where we found her on the floor on that little makeshift bed you
00:48:00
As you're sleeping on. Okay. And then when, while Alexa was being killed, Ashley ran out of the room
00:48:07
and she ran into the kitchen. Run into the table. And she was hiding under the table.
00:48:12
And I pulled her out. And did you, did you stand her under the table at all? Did you try to like,
00:48:17
not to the table. Like say, come out, come out, or, or how did you get her out from under the table?
00:48:21
Just grabbed her arm and pulled her out, I think. You grabbed her arm and pulled her out?
00:48:25
Because there's a little bit of blood under the table. So we're wondering, did she get stabbed over there at all?
00:48:34
She got stabbed in the bedroom first, and Lexa pushed her out of the way, and then I did it to Lexa.
00:48:40
So Ashley was already bleeding. Okay. So Ashley was bleeding. That's why there was a bit of blood on the table.
00:48:48
Okay. So then, once you get Ashley from underneath the table, you carry her back to the bedroom.
00:48:54
Mm-hmm. And did she fight more? Did you lay her down right next to Alexa and that's where she died?
00:49:08
Yes. Okay, and did she try to get back up and run again? Yes. Okay. Throughout this part of the interview, Jennifer, with a blanket over her shoulders, is using it to cover her face.
00:49:24
she's hunched over in her chair rocking back and forth did she say anything to you?
00:49:34
no Jennifer I know this is hard do you recall her saying anything to you? let me go
00:49:49
okay was she crying? yeah what was she saying? No, no, no, mama, don't do it. Mama, she was scared as fuck.
00:49:59
Okay. All right. Okay. And how many times do you think you stabbed her? I have no idea. I don't want to know.
00:50:10
Okay. Do you remember how many times you stabbed Ashley? I don't know. I'm sorry, Alexa?
00:50:15
No, I don't want to know that either. Okay. Do you remember when Ashley was stabbed the first time and put her out of the room?
00:50:25
Where was she stabbed? In the neck. In the neck? Was it a deep wound? Or did you just kind of nick her?
00:50:34
I don't know. Jennifer had used four different large kitchen knives to slay everyone in the trailer that morning.
00:50:43
She ended her daughter's lives by stabbing them each multiple times in the neck area,
00:50:48
effectively severing their windpipes as well as important arteries. Besides the neck wounds, though,
00:50:56
there were no defensive injuries. These poor little girls couldn't even begin to fight off their mother.
00:51:02
All they could do was run and try to find a hiding spot. But even then, Jennifer chased them down.
00:51:13
Have you used narcotics in the past, like, in your history? Did you use any kind of drugs?
00:51:19
Nothing long-term abuse of anything. Well, what did you use? I smoked pot a few times.
00:51:24
I've done acid a few times. You did acid? How long ago did you do acid? When I was a teenager.
00:51:29
Okay. But recently, have you been using any kind of street drugs? Nothing whatsoever.
00:51:33
Any kind of prescription drugs? No. Okay. And have you ever seen anybody about any kind of problems in your head?
00:51:40
Ever talked to anybody about it? Go see a doctor or? I had a couple shrinks when I was a kid.
00:51:45
That's because I was getting molested and stuff. My mom always stopped taking me to check.
00:51:51
Did your mom have some problems? My mom, no, God. My mom's a paranoid schizophrenic manic-depressant.
00:51:59
Through interviewing both Jennifer and her sister Lauren, detectives were beginning to put the pieces together.
00:52:05
Jennifer had been on a slow path to mental ruin. She had self-awareness, and she knew she was displaying many of the same odd behaviors her mother had shown
00:52:16
as her mental health declined. This wasn't her first rodeo. Jennifer knew how these things eroded.
00:52:26
She felt herself losing grip on reality, and she had been desperately trying to hide it.
00:52:41
The End 21-year-old Lauren Kukla loved her family. Her biggest concern was making sure all of the children were safe, well-fed, and loved.
00:53:20
To make this kind of life a reality for her two nieces, 8-year-old Alexa and 5-year-old Ashley,
00:53:27
this often meant cleaning up her sister's messes. Her oldest sister Jennifer was a functioning alcoholic with constant money problems.
00:53:37
And so those are the issues Lauren often helped to address. These surface issues paled in comparison to the turmoil happening in Jennifer's mind.
00:53:47
The Kukla family was no stranger to mental illness, which somewhat blinded Lauren to
00:53:53
her sister worsening mental state At the same time Jennifer was trying to hide her mental illness she often became nervous after saying what she perceived to be the wrong thing which was basically anything that might indicate she was losing her mind
00:54:09
Lauren was so concerned with these surface-level issues that Jennifer's feeble attempts to hide what was actually going on worked.
00:54:17
Things got quietly worse until February 4th, 2007, when Jennifer murdered. her two little girls. Apparently Jennifer's paranoia and hallucinations reached a peak
00:54:31
that weekend. She told psychiatrists that voices were telling her that if she didn't kill her
00:54:37
children, they'd be kidnapped, sexually abused, tortured, murdered, and then eaten. In her
00:54:44
distorted mind, Jennifer thought slitting their throats and ending it all quickly was an act of
00:54:49
compassion. It was, from her perspective, the only way she could save them. Have you heard from the voices since this happened?
00:55:03
Well, like, I said, all morning after it happened, I stayed in the house, and I was like, I couldn't
00:55:07
leave. I was like, I was sitting there waiting for somebody to come pick me up to take me
00:55:09
straight to hell. And it was like, no big deal. It was like, it was normal. So were you there all day then? I was there all day. Did you leave at any point?
00:55:18
No. So I'd go to my car to get to your butt cycle right back in the house. That was it.
00:55:24
Was your door left open all day? Yes. I was afraid to shut it. Why? I don't know.
00:55:31
It was like freaking if I shut it then the freaking demons would come faster or some crap.
00:55:35
Did you get cold? Mm-hmm. Where were you at during the day? Mostly sitting on the couch I think.
00:55:43
Did you go back in the bedroom at all? A couple times, but I couldn't stay back there.
00:55:50
What'd you do? Stay right there. Which bedroom? Did you go to your bedroom or the girls?
00:55:54
Girls. Oh, and I went back in the bathroom and had to change my clothes and freaking get all cleaned up for some fucked up reason.
00:56:05
How did you get cleaned up? Was that your water wasn't running? Like, the water, like, out of the toilet.
00:56:12
You know, the... The tank? Yeah. It was... I don't know. Okay, when you say you got changed, what were you wearing that night in the morning?
00:56:22
Um, I don't remember. There's my sister. So, after killing her children and all of the pets,
00:56:33
Jennifer stayed in the house with their dead bodies all day. She paced around until the voices apparently told her to clean it up.
00:56:42
With no running water, though, she decided to take the lid off the toilet tank and use the water in there to rinse off
00:56:50
before replacing her bloodied clothes with random things scavenged from piles of laundry.
00:56:58
When Lauren came upon the carnage and saw her sister dressed like a, quote, hobo,
00:57:04
she suddenly realized what had been happening this whole time. At that moment, Lauren didn't see her sister.
00:57:11
She saw her mother. Jennifer had become the splitting image of her mother. So her actions didn't, that day, that day and that evening,
00:57:22
it's surprising because you knew your mom had acted similar to that. I mean, it was surprising, but it was more interesting
00:57:29
because when my mom would do, I mean, she wouldn't do stuff exactly like that. She never told me.
00:57:33
She would just tell me about it happening. Right. I mean, because my mom used to say, I remember her telling me, Jenny telling me one time that she, my mom pulled over the car right over on Romeo Plank in her speedway.
00:57:45
And she said, I'm going to drown this in my piss, you know, and she pulled her pants down.
00:57:49
And she was going to drown herself in the pit. My mom was multiple suicide attempts, you know what I'm saying?
00:57:54
Not in front of me, but Jenny said, you guys are lucky you never had it as bad as we did.
00:57:58
I guess she chased Lizzie around the backyard with a butcher knife one time and like all this stuff.
00:58:02
I don't know. I don't remember. Too young, I guess. say, all right, shut it out, I have no idea.
00:58:06
But she would tell me stuff about Keith Richards and when we lost our house, how Keith Richards was going to buy it
00:58:16
and she was going to get married to him. She told me about this guy who was like a healer and like, you know,
00:58:21
like he was growing up. My grandma was sick of paying for it. When did your dad go to prison?
00:58:31
I was seven, 14 years old. He's still in prison for that? No, three years. That was your natural father?
00:58:40
I thought you said the other day that he was still in prison. I wish. When's the last thing you had contact with him?
00:58:46
He called me that night. Sunday night. After he heard his... Me and my husband are separated, like I said.
00:58:55
He lives three condos away from my husband's mom, my mother and mom. Looking back at all the strange things Jennifer had said and done,
00:59:04
made so much more sense when compared to her mother's decline. But hindsight is 20-20.
00:59:11
Let's rewind back to when Jennifer became paranoid that the two people who helped clean up her trailer
00:59:17
were going to call CPS and turn her in. She said, I mean, she talked, I guess, briefly to this Jessica girl
00:59:24
about how she liked Dean Coombs' books and stuff like that. Different kinds of, like, horror, suspense, stuff like that.
00:59:34
And she said that later at the night she said that she wishes she didn't say that because
00:59:41
that girl probably thinks that she's nuts for liking those kinds of books. I mean, that's, I don't know if that means anything, but she just said, she's like, tell
00:59:51
them that, you know, I just like to read those kinds of books, you know, they interest me
00:59:54
and blah blah And then she said to me that she starting not to remember but starting to understand why she was drinking why she would have had a drinking problem
01:00:09
She told you that? Yeah, she said she understands why she has a drinking problem.
01:00:13
For us, the people on the outside, it's not at all surprising that Jennifer suffered from addiction.
01:00:19
But in Jennifer's mind, this all stemmed from her hypnosis as a teenager. that it's in some way hello hi in some way connected to the hypnotism who did she think
01:00:34
hypnotized me she didn't dispose that information to me she said that she told al that she knew
01:00:42
biker crews like vigilantes or something you know she didn't say vigilantes but that's the only name
01:00:47
of a biker crew i've ever heard in my life so but stuff like that that she was affiliating with them
01:00:51
She said that Jim Reel, which I know is a boss at Dijinko and was also the part owner of TJ's where she worked at a golf course for a couple years,
01:01:02
summer and stuff like that. She said that she wasn't sure if she ever really worked there, if she would go there and if she was actually doing the work.
01:01:13
She told me she was like a bartender and a cook and stuff like that, but she doesn't remember actually doing it.
01:01:17
She's thinking that she was brainwashed and thinking she was doing that kind of work,
01:01:22
but really she was doing something else. She says that that was like a lapse in her brain.
01:01:26
She doesn't understand what happened at that time in her life. She asked me if I remembered her.
01:01:31
This was all Saturday night? She said, I think, Lauren, that I used to kill people.
01:01:39
And I said, I literally wrote it off as her just being either drunk or me not recognizing it as an issue.
01:01:47
Like she was saying it almost not in a joking manner, but not to where it's like, Lauren, I think I used to kill people.
01:01:54
You need to, you know, help me or something. You know, she was like, I think I used to kill people.
01:01:58
I'm like, Jenny, you know, where are you getting this from? She's like, I don't know.
01:02:01
I just, she's like, I don't understand. I don't remember. I don't remember. And then she said, she said, like, I don't remember that like three times,
01:02:08
you know, in a row. And then she said, I think I ate them. And I said, Jenny, you know, and I remember growing up,
01:02:14
Like, she used to have, like, I know it sounds stupid, but she used to do, like, candle things in her room, and, like, she'd walk around the candle.
01:02:20
Like, you know what I'm saying? Like, weird shit like that. Like, seance almost type thing?
01:02:24
Yeah, like a seance or, like, a demonic something or other. But, I mean, she, at that time, I know that she had had some experiences with drugs.
01:02:34
I don't know what, because I was nine years younger. But I know, I mean, my mom busted pot in the house.
01:02:38
She found plants that she, like, threw them against the wall. Because they were all in the basement.
01:02:42
The kids, me and my old, my Lizzie shared a room upstairs for a while. And then when my dad started raping the kids, like right before Jenny turned like 10 or something, 12, I don't know, he made the bedrooms downstairs for them.
01:02:58
So it was almost like their, like, I mean, they were, they weren't finished. There was tile on the floor, but it was like, they were drywall and stuff like that.
01:03:07
They had separate rooms. And Lizzie was in this room. Joey was in the middle. And then Jenny was at the far end.
01:03:14
And she used to come and sneak boys in and stuff like that. And they do, I mean, Matt Vessage, the one that Lizzie is Lizzie's fiance now,
01:03:21
I would go downstairs and they'd be doing whatever I didn't know. And I wouldn't tell my mom because they would tell me to shut up
01:03:26
and tell me not to come downstairs all the time because there was stuff under the stairs.
01:03:30
I think they were trying to keep me away from whatever they were doing. There was stuff under the stairs.
01:03:34
There was big spiders. There was ghosts, whatever. You know what I'm saying? And I literally, I really believe that they, even if they weren't brainwashed, that they had done something to themselves, you know what I mean, to where they thought that this was real.
01:03:47
You know, or at least maybe she lived with that. She used to cut, like, I remember one time she cut Slayer into her arm.
01:03:52
And I was like, is that, you know, it was banned because she was into heavy metal.
01:03:54
And she's like, no. And she's like, I didn't even do this, you know. And I can remember her, not that time, but I can remember her cutting her legs and cutting her arms and stuff like that.
01:04:04
And my mom would send her to the counselor, but because my mom was emotionally disturbed as well, and she had her own bipolar schizophrenia or whatever, she would take them out because in her mind, counselors and stuff like that were bad.
01:04:19
You know, police were good always. Police were good. But counselors were bad. Teachers were bad.
01:04:25
They didn't know what they were teaching you. They didn't know what they, you know, all this stuff.
01:04:28
And she would say that they're gathering information on us. They want us. They want us.
01:04:32
They want us. She would say, like, Christ's bloodline. She knew Christ's descendants.
01:04:37
We're, you know, all this stuff. And that's what I had to go around. I mean, I got past it.
01:04:40
I'm working. I mean, I worked through it. I understand that she had an illness. But I know it sounds really bad on my part, but growing up with my mom the way that she was.
01:04:48
You were used to that kind of thing. I was used to it, and I never thought that she would hurt anybody because my mom never tried.
01:04:52
It didn't alarm you because you had been exposed to her so long. Right. It didn't at all.
01:04:56
And, I mean, I've been working through that. But at the same time, I remember my foster was like, how would you know that she was going to hurt anybody?
01:05:03
And she's like, she said that anything that Jenny could have said, I mean, we rolled right off my back at the state that I am at right now.
01:05:10
So it did. You know what I'm saying? And then she started saying, you know, it's hard for me to get past my past with my mom.
01:05:18
Hard for me to even say that I can't believe what she was telling me about Keith Richards and the Beatles and whatever.
01:05:23
Because that was my mom and I was conditioned my entire life to believe that she was telling me the truth.
01:05:27
Sure. That's my mom, you know. So when Jenny tells me this stuff, I think, what if mom, I don't want to say that I'm, I don't want to feel like you, or you guys think that I'm crazy, but what if, you know, maybe this is, you know, my mom, not my mom telling her this stuff, but like maybe something my mom said was true.
01:05:45
Maybe you know we are she was special or Jenny is special That why she tried to protect her before you know and that why I had to be put on meds was because she knew something and then she knew Jenny would know the same thing or be able to do the same thing or whatever I don know You know what I saying And I thought it was some kind of religious belief that they both shared or something I don know
01:06:07
But it's in some way, hello, hi. In some way connected to the hypnotism. Who did she think hypnotized me?
01:06:15
She didn't disclose that information to me. She said that. She told Al that she knew biker crews,
01:06:23
like vigilantes or something. You know, she didn't say vigilantes, but that's the only name of a girl I've ever heard in my life.
01:06:29
So, like stuff like that, that she was affiliating with them. She said that Jim Real, which I know was a boss at Djinko
01:06:36
and was also the owner or part owner of TJ's where she worked at a golf course for a couple of years,
01:06:42
summer and stuff like that. She said that he, she wasn't sure if she ever really worked there, if she would go there
01:06:50
and if she was actually doing the work that, you know, but she told me she was like a bartender and a cook and stuff like that,
01:06:56
but she doesn't remember actually doing it. She's thinking that she was very watching,
01:07:01
thinking she was doing that kind of work when really she was doing something else.
01:07:04
She says that that was like a lapse in her brain. She doesn't understand what happened at that time in her life.
01:07:09
She asked me if I remembered her. This was all Saturday night? Okay. She said, I think, Lauren, that I used to kill people.
01:07:19
and I said I really I literally wrote it off as her just being either drunk or me not recognizing
01:07:26
it as an issue like she was saying it almost not in a joking manner but not to where it's like
01:07:33
Lauren I think I used to kill people you need to you know help me or something you know she was
01:07:36
I think I used to kill people I'm like Jenny you know what are you where are you getting this from
01:07:41
she's like I don't know I just she's like I don't understand I don't remember I don't remember and
01:07:46
And then she said, like, I don't remember that, like, three times, you know, in a row.
01:07:50
And then she said, I think I ate them. And I said, Jenny, you know. And I remember growing up, like, she used to have, like, I know it sounds stupid, but she used to do, like, candle things in her room.
01:07:59
And, like, she'd walk around the candle. Like, you know what I'm saying? Like, weird shit like that.
01:08:03
Like, seance almost? Yeah, like a seance or, like, a demonic something or other.
01:08:09
But, I mean, she, at that time, I know that she had had some experiences with drugs.
01:08:14
I don't know what, because I was nine years younger, but I know, I mean, my mom busted pot
01:08:18
in the house. She found plants and she'd like throw them against the wall. They were all in
01:08:22
the basement. The kids, me and my old, my Lizzie shared room upstairs for a while. And then when
01:08:29
my dad started raping the kids, like right before Jenny turned like 10 or something, 12, I don't
01:08:35
know, he made the bedrooms downstairs for them. So it was almost like their, like, I mean, they
01:08:41
were they weren't finished there was tile on the floor but it was like they were drywall and stuff
01:08:47
like that they had separate rooms and Lizzie was in this room Joey was in the middle and then Jenny
01:08:53
was at the far end and she used to come and see boys and stuff like that and they do I mean man
01:08:58
message the one that Lizzie is Lizzie's fiance now and like I would go downstairs and they'd be
01:09:04
doing whatever I didn't know and I wouldn't tell my mom because they would tell me to shut up and
01:09:08
And they tell me not to come downstairs all the time because there was, there was stuff under the stairs.
01:09:11
I think they were trying to keep me away from whatever they were doing. There was stuff under the stairs.
01:09:15
There was big spiders. There was ghosts, whatever. You know what I'm saying? And I literally, I really believe that they, even if they weren't brainwashed, that they had done something to themselves.
01:09:25
You know what I mean? To where they thought that this was real. You know, or at least maybe she lived with that.
01:09:29
She used to cut, like, I remember one time she cut Slayer into her arm. And I was like, is that, you know, it was banned because she was into heavy metal.
01:09:35
And she's like, no. and she was like, I didn't even do this, you know, and I could remember her, not that time,
01:09:42
but I could remember her cutting her legs and cutting her arms and stuff like that,
01:09:45
and my mom would send her to the counselor, but because my mom was emotionally disturbed as well
01:09:51
and she had her own bipolar schizophrenia or whatever, she would take them out because in her mind,
01:09:58
counselors and stuff like that were bad, you know, police were good always, police were good,
01:10:02
But counselors were bad. Teachers were bad. They didn't know what they were teaching you.
01:10:07
They didn't know what they, you know, all this stuff. And she would say that they're gathering information on us.
01:10:11
They want us. They want us. They want us. She would say, like, we're like Christ's bloodline.
01:10:15
She knew Christ's descendants. We're, you know, all this stuff. And that's what I had to go around.
01:10:19
I mean, I got past it. I'm working. I mean, I worked through it. I understand that she had an illness.
01:10:23
But I know it sounds really bad on my part, but growing up with my mom the way that she was.
01:10:29
You were used to that kind of thing. I was used to it, and I never thought that she would hurt anybody because my mom never threatened.
01:10:34
It didn't alarm you because you had been exposed for so long. Right. It didn't at all.
01:10:38
And I mean, I've been working through that, but at the same time, I mean, my foster was like,
01:10:42
how would you know that she was going to hurt anybody? And she's like, she said that anything that Jenny could have said, I mean,
01:10:48
we rolled right off my back at the state that I am in right now. So it did. You know what I'm saying?
01:10:53
And then she started saying, you know, it's hard for me to get past my past with my mom.
01:10:59
hard for me to even say that I can't believe what she was telling me about knowing Keith Richards and the Beatles and whatever
01:11:04
because that was my mom and I was conditioned my entire life to believe that she was telling me the truth.
01:11:09
Sure, sure. That's my mom, you know. So when Jenny tells me this stuff, I think, what if mom, I don't want to say
01:11:16
that I'm, I don't want to feel like you or you guys think that I'm crazy, but what if, you know, maybe this is, you know, my mom, not my mom telling her
01:11:24
this stuff, but like maybe something my mom said was true. Maybe, you know, we are, she was special or Jenny is special.
01:11:30
That's why she tried to protect her before, you know, and that's why my mom had to be put on meds was because she knew something and then she knew Jenny would know the same thing or be able to do the same thing or whatever.
01:11:39
I don't know. You know what I'm saying? And I thought it was some kind of religious belief that they both shared or something.
01:11:45
I don't know. Their mother's unchecked mental illness had set the stage. Jennifer's life was a perfect storm and she knew it.
01:11:55
What else do you need to know? All right. Anything else you can think of about this whole incident?
01:12:05
I never should have had kids. So I looked at my mom and said, well, she's psycho.
01:12:08
Make sure I don't do it to nobody else. Don't have kids. And there it is. Hearing these final words is haunting.
01:12:30
Her admission, I should have never had kids. It's not just a regret, it's the very moment of Jennifer's realization about the generational cycle of trauma and mental illness.
01:12:47
She saw and experienced the fallout of her own mother's struggle, lived through it, and yet found herself walking down a similar path,
01:12:57
trapped by the very symptoms she once feared. Jennifer was raised by someone incapable of loving, protecting, and caring for her
01:13:06
in the way every child deserves. This was a parent who not only failed to protect,
01:13:13
but often directly exposed them to traumatic experiences. After living through that trauma,
01:13:20
this same parent deterred her children from seeking mental health services. Perhaps Jennifer was set up to fail from the very start.
01:13:31
In September of 2007, about seven months after the tragic murders, 30-year-old Jennifer Kukla went to trial for two counts of first-degree murder.
01:13:40
Three separate psychologists testified on her behalf stating that she was legally insane at the time of the killings and therefore not criminally responsible They felt she should be found guilty by reason of insanity and placed in
01:13:57
a psychiatric facility. The jury, though, didn't buy it. They cited the feeble attempt at suicide,
01:14:07
the inconsistencies in Jennifer's police interview compared to her psych interviews,
01:14:12
and even witnessed testimony from her employer, who remembered Jennifer saying she could just kill her kids during a conversation about being late for work because of them.
01:14:24
To top it off, even if Jennifer had been suffering an acute psychotic episode that day,
01:14:31
under Michigan law, if that episode is triggered by drinking alcohol, it's not a defense.
01:14:38
The jury rendered a guilty verdict while also acknowledging the obvious mental illness.
01:14:45
She was sentenced to life in prison without the possibility of parole, but with the promise that she would receive at least some mental health care.
01:14:56
The police officers who responded to the gruesome scene will never get the image out of their heads.
01:15:02
Jennifer asked for her brain to be erased and I'm sure those officers wished for the very same thing
01:15:10
they remember seeing the two little girls laying side by side in their small bedroom
01:15:16
surrounded by their toys, their books, their artwork and even photos of them smiling with their mom
01:15:25
one deputy said this you can only imagine their lifestyle You could see that they didn have much But what they did have they seemed to appreciate They seemed like they were happy cute girls You have to try hard not to think about it rationally It was an irrational act
01:15:51
You never let it go. Thank you. All right, I'll tell you one little thing. The show that's coming up is called
01:16:42
This Doesn't Happen to People Like Me. I know, it's a very long title. Anyway, go find it on Apple and Spotify and subscribe.
01:16:51
Do it now. I will say one more thing because I know how you people operate. Yes, this show will be available on Plus,
01:17:19
commercial free, of course. And it going to be on every tier as well So no more mix But you do help us out tremendously still by subscribing on Apple and Spotify
01:17:52
Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.