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Sword and Scale contains adult themes and violence and is not intended for all audiences.
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Listener discretion is advised. He was pulling my wrist and he pulled me in the vehicle.
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And he's reaching and he's pulling. When you are being held against your will and you have no idea what's ahead of you,
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It felt like it lasted forever. Oh boy, are you guys not going to like this one.
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The misogyny does run thick here at Soren Scale. Enjoy. There is a line between a man
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and a monster. And when I say man, I'm also obviously talking about you ladies. You're not immune from this.
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But that line is thinner than we'd like to believe. Most people will never cross it,
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living their lives without ever feeling the sharp edge of true darkness. But under the right,
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or perhaps the wrong, circumstances, even the most ordinary person can unravel. Just look at my Facebook feed.
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A moment of rage, desperation, or even fear can crack something deep inside, something buried,
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unleashing a version of themselves they never thought possible. Not every killer is born a monster.
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Some are made, shaped by pressure, by pain, by a perfect storm of events that turn any human into something unrecognizable.
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That's the whole point we've been trying to make here for 11 years. It's not about true crime. It's about human nature.
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What makes you tick? And once that line is crossed, there is no going back. Well, I would like to say on May 7th, 2019, I had no idea that when I called my brother
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that I would be inundated with phone calls from law enforcement from Clayton County, Georgia.
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I immediately panicked and feared the worst. I had no intention on answering those calls due to fear.
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I answered the phone by mistake and within five minutes my wife called me and told me there was a deputy at the house to see me.
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My life from that point has never been the same. The following day I found myself repeating to my wife, I do not know how I'm going to tell my parents or explain to them how this happened.
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The voice you just heard belonged to a man named Keith Haring. He was speaking about an incident involving his older brother, Kenneth.
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On the evening of May 7th, 2019, 62-year-old Kenneth Haring was driving on a busy highway in Clayton County,
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near Hartsfield-Jackson International Airport in Atlanta. An airport I know very, very well.
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At some point, he drove into an intersection that he shouldn't have. This story begins with Kenneth Herring in his car, driving along, and there's pretty much no doubt that he runs a red light near Forest Parkway and Riverdale Road.
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When he runs that red light, another tractor-trailer were coming toward that intersection.
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And Mr. Herring hits the trailer, and everybody pulls off to the side to deal with the fact that there's just been a traffic accident.
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Several other motorists saw the crash unfold, and some pulled over to help, including a Georgia correctional officer named Terry Robinson.
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Did you witness a vehicle collision on May 7, 2019? Yes, ma'am. And where did that collision occur?
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Clark Howell and Forest Parkway. As we were approaching them, the light was green.
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The vehicles were turning to the left, and the truck I know was turning right. All of a sudden, I seen this room vehicle come, bam, hit the side of the truck.
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Terry Robinson wasn't on duty at the time. He wasn't a traffic cop or highway patrolman either.
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But as a correctional officer, he took it upon himself to control the scene until the proper authorities could get there.
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Now, what damages did you observe to the red maroon truck after the accident? The front end was heavily damaged.
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Radiator fluid oil water from leaking out and everything was heavily damaged at the front Because I was thinking that this vehicle is not going anywhere I assumed that hey the vehicle is disabled The pickup truck was wrecked practically totaled
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As for Kenneth Herring, he didn't appear to be injured, but he was somewhat dazed.
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And I saw the gentleman kind of slumped over a little bit. That's what made me pull over to see if he was okay.
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And when I got a card, that's when I asked the gentleman, is he okay? And then I'm just basically making sure the gentleman's okay.
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That's when I called 911. Kenneth was responsive, but there clearly was something wrong with him, and he was possibly drunk.
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After checking on Kenneth's well-being, Terry Robinson called for help. As it so happens, that just happened to be one of the worst traffic days in that area.
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285 was shut down because a battery truck had caught on fire. So law enforcement is kind of blocking the entrance and exits for 285,
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and then there's another accident somewhere else in that area. So traffic is piled up, cars everywhere, no one can really get anywhere.
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And it's taking law enforcement a few moments to get to the scene. More than 20 minutes had passed since Terry called 911.
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No cops or emergency services had arrived. So Terry called again. and none has pulled up as his mom in the time.
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Okay, I just hit a call. We already have someone on the way. The dispatcher assured Terry that help was on the way.
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Meanwhile, another witness to the crash also called 911. Clayton County, 911. What is the location of your emergency?
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Yes, ma'am. I'm working on Forest Parkway and Clark Howell Highway. And there was just an accident. I'm sure they've already called.
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But I just witnessed it, and I just wanted to make sure that I called the police as well in case they didn't.
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What were the kind of vehicles involved? It's a red Dodge pickup truck. I think it's a Dakota.
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And a Semi was involved. And the red Dakota off-branded the red light and slammed into the side of the Semi.
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Okay. And what's your name? My name is Hannah, H-A-N-N-A-H. Last name is Payne, T-A-Y-N-E.
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Terry and the other witness continued to wait. As they did, they noticed something strange.
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Kenneth Herring had climbed out of his truck and began aimlessly wandering around.
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Mr. Herring appeared somewhat confused after the accident. Kept saying, who hit me?
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What's happening? Things along those lines. And then started saying things like, I didn't do anything wrong.
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Kenneth wandered in circles a few times. Then he got back behind the wheel of his truck and tried to restart the engine.
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He got back into the truck. When I called, he got back into the truck and I said, well, sir, are you okay?
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Like that. And he said, I'm ready to go. Like I said, sir, you can't go anywhere.
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You know, can't go anywhere. And all of a sudden, he turned on the vehicle. And I was like, well, sir, you can't do anything. You can't move. You can't move.
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And that's when he put it in the drive and floored it. Kenneth sped off. Terry, while still on the phone with the 911 dispatcher,
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watched as the damaged pickup disappeared down the highway. The reason why I'm asking them is because it's the driver who caused the accident.
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I think he's uncared. Something's going on with him. And so the thing about it, we're trying to tell him to turn his vehicle off from the smoke.
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And he's not calling the name. So that's why I'm asking if he's moving his fear.
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He's going to drive off, man. He's driving off. He's driving off. Take a picture.
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I'm driving like, take a picture. Quick, quick, quick, quick. Quick. He's driving off.
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He's driving off. Where's he going, Kurt? He's heading for Riverdale Road. He has an older black gentleman, gray hair, blue shirt on, and front-end damaged, heavily front-end damaged in front.
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I can't even believe it. I knew he was talking around with it, Dad. I knew it. As Kenneth had fled the scene, the other witness, Hannah Payne, didn't hesitate.
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She jumped into her Jeep Wrangler and took off after him. Okay, good. Go. As Hannah pursued Kenneth, she stayed on the phone with the 911 dispatcher and relayed his movements.
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I actually called about 20 minutes ago for an accident and no one has shown up yet.
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But I am under the impression that the guy that caused the accident who ran the red light is drunk.
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And he's gotten back in his car and he's looking like he's trying to drive away.
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Okay, can you get a side jumper? Hold on. He's driving away. Okay so he is going down west down Clark no I sorry down Fort Parkway
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Okay, so you couldn't get a saying number? No, but I'm catching up to him right now.
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Hannah followed Kenneth and eventually caught up to him. What happened next left several other drivers stunned and horrified.
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Now, did you see any sort of struggle between the driver of the car that she's standing at and Ms. Payne?
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Yes. Okay, describe what you saw. Just like a little pushing back and forth. What else happens next?
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I ended up pulling out my phone to record. Honestly, I hate to say it like this, but that was like another day in McLean County.
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And as I was recording, I heard a gunshot. On May 7th, 2019, a gunshot echoed through the traffic on Riverdale Road in Clayton County, Georgia.
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Drivers hit their brakes, their heads whipping towards a sound. At first, it seemed like just another case of road rage, until they saw the blood.
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Someone was shot. Someone was dying. On the evening of May 7th, 2019, 62-year-old Kenneth Herring caused a traffic accident.
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on a busy highway in Clayton County, Georgia. He ran a red light, driving his pickup truck headfirst into the side of a tractor trailer.
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The semi-driver was unharmed, but witnesses noticed something about Kenneth. Something off.
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He seemed confused, maybe even drunk. Among those who stopped to help was an off-duty correctional officer named Terry Robinson.
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Was the vehicle operable? At the time, it wasn't because it was off, but we see it happen that he was able to turn it on and leave the scene.
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He realized at some point, Mr. Robinson did, that Mr. Herring's kind of circling his vehicle.
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If he doesn't know what's going on, he might get in his car and drive somewhere.
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I think he's going to leave the scene. And sure enough, Mr. Herring does get in his vehicle and begin driving.
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About 20 minutes after the accident, Kenneth did something unexpected. He climbed back into his truck and sped away.
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A short time later, and just a couple of miles down the road, a frantic driver flagged down a police sergeant.
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Yes, I was flagged down by a citizen that informed me there had been a vehicle accident and someone had been shot.
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When you first arrived, can I describe what you initially see? There's a large crowd of people.
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Obviously, the two vehicles that appeared to have collided. And there were other vehicles pulled over to the side to, I guess, assist with the situation.
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And multiple witnesses pointing to a red pickup truck saying that the man inside had been shot.
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The officer was directed to Kenneth's truck. Inside, Kenneth was unresponsive, slumped in the driver's seat, bleeding from a gunshot wound to his abdomen.
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And what did you do? We were trying to identify where his gunshot wound was and basically what was going on with him.
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as long as trying to get the driver's side door open. And was paramedics or EMT or an ambulance requested?
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Yes, they were. And were there also civilians assisting you with Mr. Herring? Yes.
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Before the paramedics arrived? Yes. Did Mr. Herring ever say anything while you were there?
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No, ma'am. When paramedics arrived at the scene, they rushed Kenneth to the hospital,
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but it was too late. Kenneth Herring, a father, a husband, a brother, and a son, was gone.
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His death was sudden, violent, and completely unexpected. His family was devastated.
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I no longer have a big brother. He called me biscuit head all my life because from a little kid,
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every time my mom would get up every morning to make fresh biscuits, I would be there.
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As the baby, I got the first one. And so as I got older, he would then just call me Biscuit.
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I won't get to hear that anymore. We won't get to laugh at him because he couldn't dance, but he tried.
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No more Christmas. No more birthdays. No more family gatherings. His grandchildren won't know him.
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He has two adult children that they don't have a father anymore. After Kenneth had died, an autopsy was performed to determine the cause and manner of his death.
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And did you recover any projectiles from Mr. Heron's body? Yes. So the bullet traveled through the abdomen.
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It struck the small intestine, the large intestine, the colon, and the left kidney.
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Then it came to rest just beneath the skin of the left side of the back. It resulted in a massive loss of blood And what was the cause of death in Mr Heron case Gunshot wound of the abdomen And what was the matter of death in Mr Herring case Homicide
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Kenneth Herring had been shot to death in his own truck on the side of a Clayton County highway.
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When police arrived, there was no mystery about who pulled the trigger. The shooter confessed right then and there. Did you do anything to see if you could determine
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who had fired a shot. Yes, I asked who shot him, and that's when Ms. Payne stated I did
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and handed me her firearm, her license, and her Georgia concealed carry permit. The shooter was 21-year-old Hannah Payne. She had witnessed the initial traffic accident, and
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when Kenneth fled, she made the fateful decision to follow him. When she first witnessed the crash,
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Hannah was on her way home from her job as a property manager. Typically, I'm in the field.
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I go from property to property, either collecting rent, sometimes walking vacant and or abandoned apartments that could potentially be under construction.
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And I would show vacant apartments to potential renters. And because you were going to all these different places to meet people you don't know, did you do anything for your safety?
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I did. And what was that? I registered for a concealed carry permit, and when I received it, I purchased a firearm.
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Several hours after she admitted to shooting Kenneth, Hannah sat down with Clayton County detectives.
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They wanted to hear her side of the story. According to Hannah, when she caught up to Kenneth, she got out of her Jeep and approached the truck.
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She told him he needed to return to the scene of the crash. That's when, she claimed, Kenneth grabbed her wrist and tried pulling her into the truck through the driver's side window.
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We grabbed that wrist. We kind of started going back and forth fighting. And that's when he punched the gas that he ran into my tire.
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Now, I don't know if he was reaching. I wasn't watching him. I was trying to pull away from him.
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And he, I had to drive him off and he had my shirt. Hannah told detectives that Kenneth grabbed and ripped at her shirt as she struggled to break free.
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As she fought back, Kenneth's truck lurched forward, crashing into her parked Jeep.
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Hannah claimed she had no memory of actually pulling the trigger. As for the evidence, Hannah did have some minor bruising and scratches on her body,
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and her shirt was nearly torn in half. So there were signs of a struggle, but why would Kenneth attack her?
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Why would he try to drag her into his truck? Was he just a drunk and angry man that day?
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Or was there something else to this story? Now, when you make contact with the driver in the maroon truck, what were your observations of him physically?
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Physically, the scene that he was, again, out of it. And like I said, I noticed his eyes were a glassy effect.
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Again, not being a professional doctor or anything, just saying that was he going through a diabetic situation or whatever.
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I didn't smell any alcohol on him. I'm sorry, but I just noted that the gentleman was, you know, out of it.
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So you didn't smell any alcohol? No, I did not. A key witness to the initial traffic accident was an off-duty correctional officer who happened to work at the jailhouse infirmary.
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When the officer observed Kenneth after the crash, he concluded fairly quickly that Kenneth wasn't drunk at all, but was suffering from some kind of medical emergency like diabetic shock.
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You notified Detective Moore that he was walking pretty normal, but he reminded you of a person like you would like from when I was working in the infirmary and stuff.
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these guys, you know, when you're a diabetic and you go into shock and your mindset, you know,
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that's what it reminded me of. He kept asking me what day it was and stuff like that. And I said,
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okay, sir. So based on your observation, Mr. Herring on that day and your experience in working
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in the infirmary at the Jordan Department of Corrections, did you believe Mr. Herring was
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having a suffering from a medical condition. Yes. Later on, investigators did confirm that
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Kenneth was a diabetic and that he relied on insulin. And are you related to Kenneth Herring?
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Yes. And how were you related to Kenneth Herring? I'm his baby sister. In the time that you spent
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around Kenneth, were you ever aware of any medical conditions that Kenneth had? I knew I
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know that he was a diabetic severely. Were you aware of any type of medications or anything that he had to do
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in order to manage his severe diabetes? He was insulin dependent. Although Kenneth's medical condition was clear,
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the autopsy couldn't confirm if he was suffering from diabetic shock at the time of his death.
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When a person dies, the blood sugar continues to be metabolized very, very quickly.
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So even in a person whose blood sugar was normal at their time of death, that test would show low blood sugar.
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That's just the normal course of what we call postmortem change. So if his blood sugar was already low, there's no way for me to differentiate if he had a low blood sugar at the time of death versus the normal postmortem.
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or the lowering of the blood sugar. While the autopsy couldn't verify diabetic shock,
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it could reveal if Kenneth was intoxicated on the day he died. So the comprehensive blood screen at the Georgia Bureau of Investigation
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tests for all the major and common drugs of abuse, and there are hundreds of different additional drugs that the panel covers.
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and you said everything was negative yes and what about the blood alcohol content it was negative as
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well the results were clear kenneth herring was not high he was not drunk and it was likely that
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he'd been in a state of diabetic shock when he crashed when kenneth's wife was questioned she
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gave a plausible explanation for why Kenneth fled the scene of the accident. He probably knew he needed medical attention
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and didn't have time to wait for an ambulance that never came. I know he was having a diabetic episode because he don't just run off the scene.
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I knew he was trying to get to the hospital. With this new information, Hannah Payne's self-defense story started to crumble.
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Diabetic shock doesn't cause aggression. It usually causes dizziness, confusion, and also weakness.
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Also, Hannah's version of events didn't match what multiple witnesses saw that day.
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I was getting off work as I was approaching Forest Parkway. I was making a left off Atlanta South Parkway.
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As I was making my left and getting into the far right lane, Miss Hannah was coming up Forest Parkway.
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She was coming from the end off of Highway 85, and she almost ran me off the road.
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She was speeding. she's going very fast when Hannah chased after Kenneth she didn't just follow him
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she sped after him at a reckless pace weaving in and out of traffic nearly running other drivers
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off the road when she caught up she used a merging lane to block him Kenneth was trapped
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he had nowhere to go and blocked him from driving so he abruptly raped and it caught my intention because it was like really aggressive. It was just
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road rage at the time. And then a woman popped out of the car and she said, get the F out
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the truck. See him a bunch of times. Several witnesses saw what happened next. They watched
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as Hannah got out of her Jeep and aggressively approached Kenneth's window. I saw her at the
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driver's side door of the vehicle yelling obscenities for the man to get out of the car.
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It looked like she was trying to fight him through the window. And when you say she was trying to fight him through the window, what did
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you actually see? I just saw her hands moving. You know, get out of the car, motherfucker.
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Doing all this. I never saw anyone's hands come out of the window, per se. But I did see her
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at the window. She got out of her Jeep and she immediately went to the truck driver's side yelling
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and began swinging and hitting the man that was in the driver's side of the truck.
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What, if anything, did you hear her say? I heard her say, get the F out of the car.
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She just kept cussing at him, get the F out of the car. Now, were you able to see Mr. Herring inside of his vehicle during this incident?
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Yes. And what did you observe of Mr. Herring? He looked confused. Were you able to see what the driver, what the man in the truck was doing?
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Yes. What could you see about him? He was sitting there. He didn't raise any hands or anything.
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He was just sitting there. That's what got my attention because he wasn't reacting.
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So I thought that was kind of odd just sitting there and allowing somebody to punch him like that.
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Could you see anything about the facial expressions or anything like that on the driver of the truck?
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He looked confused and shocked. According to multiple witnesses, Hannah Payne had recklessly chased down an older man.
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When she caught up to him, she blocked his truck and assaulted him. She was punching the man in the truck repeatedly because his window was down.
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And she just kept punching him over and over and over. And the truck tried to go forward.
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And there was impact. Witnesses saw Hannah yelling. and striking Kenneth when his truck suddenly lurched forward,
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slamming into her Jeep. She must have been irate about that. The logical assumption is that Kenneth had put the truck in drive
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and hit the gas, desperate to escape the enraged stranger shouting at him through his window.
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She backed away. I could see the gun on her hip. And she pulled the gun out after punching her repeatedly.
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and asked him to get out of the car. She was pointing the gun at him, telling him to get out of the car, get out of the car.
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And she pulled out a gun, and I remember there was a lot of traffic, so people, we couldn't really move,
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and people started honking to the heck out of the way. Well, what, if anything else, did you see?
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I pulled a gun. After she pulled the gun, she shot him, and she said, now you need an ambulance.
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After Kenneth's truck crashed into Hannah's Jeep, Hannah pulled out her gun. and a single shot was fired.
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Soon after, one of the witnesses called 911. It was a merging lane and then she like got impatient
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and went around him for no reason because it was coming, coming traffic. And then he almost hit her because he did that.
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So he breaks suddenly but then she got mad hopped out her car and then she pulled out her gun and started screaming at him You know like what the heck And then she was like how was she a student And she started hitting him Okay you said she pulled out a gun
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Yes. Did she shoot the gun? Did she shoot him? She shot him. Unfortunately for Hannah, a key piece of evidence backed up the witness's accounts.
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the entire time she was chasing Kenneth, Hannah was on the phone with a 911 dispatcher
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there was recorded proof of her actions okay so you couldn't get a tag number? no but I'm catching up
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to him right now okay ma'am we actually do not want you to chase him we just want you to be safe
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I understand I understand 100% I'm just going to get the tag number if nothing else
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But I am going west down Forest Parkway, and we are almost up to him. Hannah had gotten close enough to read Kenneth's license plate number to the dispatcher.
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But when the dispatcher told her to turn around and go back to the scene of the accident, she refused.
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If you can go back to that location where the incident happened, because someone is actually on the way to you guys now.
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Okay, well, there's a police officer there, but he is drunk. I'm sorry that I'm here to tell you I'm not going to follow him
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because he is going to cause another accident. So I will stay behind him until an officer can get to us.
00:31:34
Yeah, no, that's what I want. I want you guys to go back to the location where it happened,
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and an officer will be out there momentarily, okay? Ma'am. Ma'am. He pulled the trigger of the gun in my hand.
00:32:41
Okay, Karen. After Kenneth was shot, Hannah had the nerve to tell the dispatcher that Kenneth had shot himself with her gun. Imagine that. Moments later, she coldly told a bystander that she was fine, but that Kenneth wasn't.
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I need another new permit. I'm sorry, we're here. Witnesses later described Hannah's demeanor after the shooting.
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They claimed that she was cold and actually seemed kind of proud of herself. And what was her demeanor at that time?
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Calm. Like? I don't know. Like she, I don't know. There wasn't a lot of emotion.
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Now, what was the defendant's demeanor immediately after the victim was shot? She had no one where she was just like, she was thugged out.
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she had no remorse at all. She was so right in that moment. She felt like she had done something.
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Now, after the victim was shot, what happened? Well, he just laid back in his seat.
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His eyes went white. He just laid back. She stood back. Somebody else waved down a police officer.
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He was already at exit. The officer came running up. He said, what happened? Who shot?
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and he put her handcuffs. Hannah insisted that Kenneth grabbed her gun and shot himself,
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but no one at the scene could confirm or deny that because nobody had a clear view of the weapon when it fired.
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And do you know where the gun was, based on your observation? At that time, the gun was in her, if I'm not mistaken, right hand,
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but it was inside the truck, so of course at the door panel, I couldn't see what was going on there because she stuck it in there.
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But when you hear the gunshot, if I'm not, I just want to make sure I understand the hand or the arm with the gun was inside the truck.
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Yes, ma'am. Despite her claims of self-defense, and it's a woman, so they're always going to be claiming self-defense,
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Hannah was ultimately arrested and charged with multiple crimes, including malice and felony murder.
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Formally charged, a grand jury indicting the woman accused of following a man involved in a hit and run,
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then killing him during a confrontation. Clayton County's district attorney says Hannah Payne was trying to act like the police when she fatally shot 62-year-old Kenneth Herring last month.
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A witness telling police he appeared to be suffering a medical emergency like diabetic shock.
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Payne indicted on malice and felony murder. She's claiming self-defense. The COVID-19 pandemic, I know I'm sick of talking about it too.
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I am. But it caused a massive court backlog across the entire country. and Clayton County was no exception.
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It took prosecution four years to bring Hannah Payne to trial. In the meantime, she remained out of jail on a $100,000 bond,
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surrounded by family and friends who supported her. You obviously got an outcome that you were looking for, a $100,000 bond.
00:35:52
Your reaction? I speechless I just so glad that it went that way I mean we sorry for what happened and everything in regards to Mr Herring family and everything
00:36:08
But Hannah is not the person that they are saying she is. Not at all. She's the sweetest, most caring.
00:36:15
What do you say? You just mentioned about the family, Mr. Herring's family. What do you want to say to them?
00:36:19
I just wanted to say that this was an unfortunate situation that, you know, turned out the way it did, but not at the hands of my daughter.
00:36:29
What do you mean not at the hands of your daughter? Just, it was not her fault. Of course not. How could it possibly be your precious baby angel's fault?
00:36:39
Naturally, Kenneth Haring's family saw things a bit differently. After waiting years for justice, their frustration boiled over,
00:36:49
and Kenneth's brother wrote a letter to the NAACP. Within that letter, he wrote,
00:36:55
My brother Kenneth Herring was murdered in cold blood by Hannah Payne. This murderer is out on bond and has not been brought to justice.
00:37:05
Eventually, the trial did begin. Hannah Payne faced eight felony charges including malice murder
00:37:12
which could have put her in prison for life at trial and in a surprising move Hannah took the witness stand
00:37:21
staring directly at the jury she told them her reasoning for why Kenneth Herring
00:37:27
had to die she said there was no choice she had to save her own life The End murder trial finally began. She faced eight felony charges, including malice murder, felony murder,
00:38:14
false imprisonment, aggravated assault, and possession of a firearm during the commission
00:38:18
of a felony. That last one seems a bit redundant, doesn't it? If convicted, the now 25-year-old woman
00:38:26
could spend the rest of her life in prison without the possibility of parole. In 2019, Clayton County
00:38:33
police say Payne shot and killed 62-year-old Kenneth Herring. Payne is accused of following
00:38:38
Herring after he left the scene of a crash where he reportedly hit a semi-truck. Herring was
00:38:44
experiencing a medical emergency which appeared to be diabetic shock. She allegedly confronted him
00:38:49
and attempted to make a citizen's arrest. She's facing a number of charges including malice and
00:38:55
felony murder. Like any murder trial, the proceedings began with jury instructions,
00:39:01
followed by the prosecution's opening statement. On May 7th of 2019, defendant Hannah Renee Payne had the audacity
00:39:11
to chase, corner, detain, assault, shoot, and kill an unarmed 62-year-old kid at carrying
00:39:25
who was sitting in his own car, all because she didn't like his driving. From the start, prosecutors hammered home a key point.
00:39:38
Hannah Payne had no business involving herself in the crash between Kenneth Herring and the semi-truck driver.
00:39:45
In fact, Hannah Payne had no business involving herself in many things. And neither do you, ladies.
00:39:51
What, you're an expert in geopolitics now just because you have a Facebook profile?
00:39:56
Go fuck yourself. Anyway, the accident had nothing to do with her. She had no right to intervene.
00:40:26
defendant, ma'am, don't chase him. That's not safe. Don't follow him. We don't need you to do that.
00:40:36
But this defendant, as far as she was concerned, was the rightest person she knew.
00:40:40
Because she tells that 911 operator, well, I'm not not going to follow him. So she's kind of backed off and just let it be. Nope. Not good enough. And you will hear the
00:40:55
defendant screaming, get out of the car, get out of the car. And witnesses will tell you that she
00:41:03
jumps out and is going straight to his driver's side. But it turns out Mr. Heron's window is part
00:41:10
of the way down. And that this defendant is reaching in to where Mr. Heron is sitting in the
00:41:16
car, in the truck. The defendant reaching in and assaulting Mr. Heron. And while he's trying to
00:41:25
deal with the defendant at his door, his car moves forward. And what happens is that he
00:41:34
bumps in her Jeep. And once that happens, you'll hear an escalation in what she's saying.
00:41:40
Get the fuck out of the car! Get the fuck out of the car! I will shoot you! I will shoot
00:41:47
you! The prosecutors also wasted no time dismantling Hannah version of events implying that her explanation of what happened was absurd And after she shoots him she picks up the phone with the 911 operator going
00:42:06
Ma'am, you are not supposed to follow him. She's going to tell you. The very first thing she said, he hid my car.
00:42:15
That's what she says. You will hear her tell you in her own words why she killed this man.
00:42:21
Then she tells the 911 operator, he pulled the trigger on my gun and shot himself.
00:42:30
That's the level of audacity you're going to hear. Trying to claim this man would shoot himself.
00:42:37
The defense, on the other hand, stood by Hannah's story. They insisted that Kenneth Herring had been the aggressor and that Hannah had no choice but to protect herself.
00:42:49
And upon grabbing her, she's pulling her into the car. And you will see pictures.
00:42:54
And you will look testimony. And you will see scratches all over her neck. Scratches on the back of her head.
00:43:01
All these bruises on her face. These are evidence that are going to come in. These pictures were taken right after this.
00:43:09
And you're going to see her shirt just ripped completely wide open. To bolster their argument, the defense pointed out that Kenneth,
00:43:17
a handyman had various tools in his truck, items that, in theory, could have been used as weapons against Hannah.
00:43:27
Yet, that never happened. They're going to show you pictures of a knife, work tools that can be used aggressively
00:43:36
to cause substantial and serious immediate harm. The trial lasted five days. Witnesses, police officers, and forensic experts took the stand, laying out what they saw, heard, and uncovered.
00:43:52
Much of the testimony supported the prosecution's case, painting Hannah as the aggressor.
00:43:58
There was evidence of a struggle, but nothing to suggest that Kenneth Herring had attacked Hannah when she confronted him at his truck.
00:44:06
Then, Hannah took the stand. I was on my way home from work, and I was coming up to an intersection where the light had just turned green.
00:44:19
As I was getting ready to turn left, there was a semi that was turning right. Someone ran the red light, and I watched him run right into the tractor trailer.
00:44:32
I pulled off to the side, and I got on the phone with 911. one. Hannah began telling her side of the story, describing the traffic accidents she witnessed
00:44:43
and everything that unfolded after that. After that, we were kind of just standing there waiting
00:44:49
for the police to arrive. And the other gentleman who had witnessed it walked over to us.
00:44:57
And he introduced himself and said that he was a state officer and he flashed his badge
00:45:02
and said that he had checked on the other gentleman and that was asking us, are we okay?
00:45:09
Is everybody all right? One of the key witnesses to the accident was an off-duty correctional officer named Terry Robinson.
00:45:18
During her testimony, Hannah claimed that she'd been following the instructions of a man
00:45:23
she assumed was a, quote, state officer. What I thought that we had learned was that the driver who had caused the original accident was potentially drunk.
00:45:38
I noticed that's when he completely gets in his truck. He starts trying to turn it on, and you can hear him, like,
00:45:45
revving it to get it to turn on. And that's when he started to drive away. So I'm explaining to the dispatch what happened,
00:45:56
and as he's pulling off, she's asking me, you know, was I able to get the tag number.
00:46:00
Realizing I wasn't able to, I was already at my vehicle, and I completely got in my vehicle and went to go pull off.
00:46:12
And at that time, the truck driver and the state officer was still standing over in the street,
00:46:19
and he started waving me over, like calling me towards him. And when you got up close to him, what happened?
00:46:25
I asked him, did he go straight? And he said yes. And he's telling me, he said go.
00:46:34
So at that time, you are under the impression that he's a state officer sending you to get the tag.
00:46:40
And 911 knows that you're on the way to get the tag. Correct. After Kenneth had fled the scene, Terry Robinson instructed Hannah to follow Kenneth.
00:46:50
And this fact was not disputed. And that was you in there saying, go, go, good, go.
00:46:57
Correct? Yes. Okay, that was directed clearly to Ms. Payne, correct? Yes. And you didn't see her after that because she's going to get a picture of the tag, correct?
00:47:08
Yes. Because you never said anything about please don't pursue, or you never said anything like, hey, be safe, don't do this.
00:47:16
I said get the picture of the tag. And you said, go, go, good, go. She's going to get a picture of the tag.
00:47:23
While Terry may have been in the wrong to encourage Hannah to pursue Kenneth, one thing was certain.
00:47:30
He never told her to run him off the road and shoot him. Not to mention the fact that just because you're female
00:47:36
doesn't mean you don't have autonomy and can't make your own decisions. You know?
00:47:41
Why are you always acting like victims? Hannah's decision to chase him was her own,
00:47:48
despite what anybody else told her. nonetheless Hannah's testimony continued alright so then now you're
00:47:55
going in the direction they pointed you and you're on the phone with 911 911 Was 911 saying anything?
00:48:02
There was kind of silence from the time that she had initially asked me if I had got the tag.
00:48:10
I was still kind of getting my bearings and I just started repeating to her, telling her,
00:48:16
okay, you know, he's going down Clark Howell or Forest Parkway. So you never heard them give a warning of not to chase?
00:48:24
No. This was a damning moment at trial, and frankly, a boneheaded move by the defense.
00:48:33
When prompted by her own attorney, Anna claimed she hadn't heard the 911 dispatcher tell her not to chase Kenneth.
00:48:40
But the recorded call told a different story. Okay, so you couldn't get a tag number?
00:48:47
No, but I'm catching up to him right now. Okay, ma'am, we actually do not want you to chase him.
00:48:52
We just want you to be safe. I understand. I understand 100%. I'm just going to get the tag number, if nothing else.
00:49:02
The dispatcher's words were crystal clear. Do not chase. Hannah had even responded saying that she 100% understood before outright refusing to obey.
00:49:18
Y'all ever heard of that word, obey? Might be a new one for you. Hannah's testimony continued.
00:49:35
She went on to explain her actions when she confronted Kenneth. At that point is when we had both come up to the intersection and I saw him stopped in the turning lane.
00:49:50
So I turned as well. And when I stopped, I was under the impression with me having 911 on the phone that I could just be kind of like a messenger.
00:50:05
So I took my phone on speaker and I took it to him to show him that I had the police on the phone.
00:50:16
And I'm telling him they want us to go back to the original accident site. Hannah tried to present herself as a good Samaritan, but the 911 recording contradicted this.
00:50:28
She had been aggressive, barking orders at an older man who was likely in the midst of a medical emergency.
00:50:35
Granted, she didn't know Kenneth's condition and assumed he was drunk, but even so, there was no justification for her to chase him down and confront him.
00:50:52
But as I got closer, I heard him asking me, who the F are you? and I told him that I was nobody but that I had the police on the phone
00:51:05
and that they wanted us to go back to the original accident site. Apparently I was close enough for him to reach out the car
00:51:16
and he knocked my phone out of my hand and he grabbed me by my wrist and he pulled me into the vehicle.
00:51:27
Hannah claimed Kenneth attacked her and tried to pull her into his truck. If that was true, a point the prosecution strongly doubted,
00:51:36
Hannah was clearly the one who escalated the situation. Legally, whatever action Kenneth took at that point didn't matter.
00:51:44
The indication is, as from all of the witnesses, were asked her demeanor. Aggressive. Aggressive. Very aggressive.
00:51:52
Once she is noted as the initial aggressor, as the aggressor on scene, nothing that Mr. Herring did is relevant.
00:52:01
Despite the prosecution's argument, Hannah stuck to her story. She insisted that she'd been trying to protect herself.
00:52:09
He was pulling my wrist, and he pulled me in the vehicle, and he kept yelling at me, telling me,
00:52:14
I have something for you, bitch. and he's leaning and he's reaching and he's pulling.
00:52:23
And at this point, I remember that he had let go of my wrist and he grabbed me by the back of my neck.
00:52:38
And it was as if he was trying to kind of keep a hold of me. I'm telling him to let me go
00:52:46
and that's when he hits the gas and we go forward I'm still in the car at this point
00:52:58
while it only may have been a few steps or a few feet when you are being held against your will
00:53:09
and you have no idea what's ahead of you. And you're looking down. It felt like it lasted forever.
00:53:21
Here we go with the tears. Of course. Hannah goes on to tell the jury that after Kenneth's truck lurched forward
00:53:28
and crashed into her precious Jeep, Kenneth attempted to take Hannah's gun. And now, suddenly,
00:53:35
she's being held against her will. The irony. What the fuck was she doing there anyway?
00:53:42
This eternal victimhood. It's fucking exhausting. He grabbed my hand with the gun in it.
00:53:51
He's pulling at it. He's pulling at it. And I just yelling at him to stop As he turning it towards like that way I being pulled and pulled and I can feel myself like pressing up against the car
00:54:07
Like, my face is up against the door. And as he's pulling it is when it went off.
00:54:18
Having gone through that situation and here on court, is there anything you've learned?
00:54:25
from this situation that sticks in your mind? That not everybody is going to have a reaction
00:54:32
that you think they're going to have. And that clearly trying to do the right thing
00:54:40
is not the right answer. Jesus frickin'. Did the concept of minding your own business
00:54:48
ever cross your mind, Hannah? I mean, why would it? Hannah claimed that she had been simply trying to do the right thing
00:54:56
but in the end it was Kenneth who was to blame for what happened for Kenneth's family who were sitting in the courtroom
00:55:04
listening to Hannah's words was unbearable how was that I mean for them to bring forth that type of defense
00:55:12
what did you think about that? I think it's selfish to blame the victim And I thought it was heartless when all accounts said excuse the aggressor.
00:55:27
And then to blame a victim of the person that you caused the death of. It must have been tough to sit through that.
00:55:36
It was very tough. Next up, the prosecution cross-examined Hannah, which was a bit of a disaster for the defense.
00:55:45
And you also testified today that you never heard the 911 dispatch give you a warning, not a chase?
00:55:53
No, I never said that. I said that she told me that she wanted me to be safe. And I said that from what I took it as was that she didn't want me to chase.
00:56:06
And when I explained to her I wasn't chasing, I was just simply staying with him until a police officer could get to us.
00:56:12
And the 911 dispatch indicated to you approximately four times to either not chase Mr. Herring and go back to the scene, correct?
00:56:22
Incorrect. I only heard it one time and she told me not to chase, to be safe. She never told me to go back to the scene until after I had told her that I was behind him and that she wanted me to be safe.
00:56:39
And in doing so, she said that she wanted both of us to go back. Hannah's explanation of the 911 call was a word salad mess.
00:56:48
Rambling, contradictory, and unlucky to convince the jury of anything, other than she was an idiot.
00:56:55
You only heard her tell you to stop chasing once, but then she told you again to stop chasing and go back to the scene
00:57:02
after you told her that you were behind him. What? What are you even saying? lady. Oh, that's right. It's never my fault. I see. Makes sense. And the dispatcher tells you,
00:57:17
okay, ma'am, we actually do not want you to chase him. We just want you to be safe.
00:57:22
The first time they tell you not to chase him, correct? She didn't tell me not to. She just said
00:57:27
that they didn't want me to because of my safety, at least is the way that I interpreted. Okay,
00:57:32
I'll give you that. So they told you that they do not want you to chase him, correct? Correct.
00:57:39
And the dispatcher tells you after that it's not safe to chase him. Second time, correct?
00:57:47
That's what the transcripts guys said. When we're listening to it, I don't remember hearing that.
00:57:52
And once she gets the tag number from you, she tells you, okay, so if you could go back to that location where the incident happened
00:58:00
because someone is actually on the way to you guys now. Is that correct? Correct.
00:58:06
That's the third time she's telling you to not continue to follow Mr. Herring and go back to the location.
00:58:13
And the dispatcher tells you after that, you know that's what I want. I want you guys to go back to the location where it happened and an officer would be out there momentarily.
00:58:24
So that's the fourth time she's telling you again. After going over the 911 call, the prosecutor then turned to what happened after Hannah blocked Kenneth's truck.
00:58:35
Now, you testified that you walked up to him. Does it sound like you described it calmly, telling him that the 911 dispatch wanted him to go back to the scene?
00:58:45
Correct. And telling him calmly that you were on the phone with 911? I mean, when you say calmly, do you mean, like, was I irate or was I louder?
00:58:59
That is your testimony today that you did not get out of your vehicle and run up to Mr. Herring's vehicle,
00:59:04
telling him to get out of the car? Correct. And you never once got out of your vehicle
00:59:09
and go up to him and tell him to get out of the fucking car? Well, everyone heard I did.
00:59:15
And so at no point on that 911 tape did you ever tell him to stop, go back to the scene?
00:59:24
I did. And did you hear that on the 911? Conveniently, no. The prosecutor's argument was simple.
00:59:33
Hannah had no legal right to chase Kenneth. She had no reason to confront him at all.
00:59:39
And the only reason a man was dead was because of the choices she made on that day.
00:59:45
So in the initial incident, your vehicle was not struck, correct? Correct. Correct.
00:59:52
And so there was no reason for you to interject yourself in the final conclusion of what happened with Mr Herring as far as that incident was concerned There was a lot that led up to that
01:00:06
So for me to have interjected myself to begin with was me doing something that I would have wanted someone else to do for me,
01:00:14
which was to be a witness for what I thought was an accident. You talked about the fact that it could have been avoided had you not attempted to, I guess, assist or help.
01:00:26
But this actually could have been avoided if you not had introduced a gun into this incident, correct?
01:00:35
I introduced the gun to try and save my life. Nothing further on. Hannah's decision to testify didn't do her any favors.
01:00:45
But given how much evidence was stacked against her, she really didn't have much of a choice.
01:00:51
Maybe a white girl crying on the stand would sway a dumb juror or two. Finally, after days of testimony, the trial drew to a close, and both sides delivered their closing arguments.
01:01:05
The defendant had multiple opportunities to do something else. to go back to the incident location,
01:01:13
to go back home, not pursue. This had nothing to do with her. You can't poke a bear
01:01:21
and then when the bear turns around and attack you, want to claim self-defense. It doesn't work that way.
01:01:32
And you know how much entitlement you have to have to chase somebody down, detain them,
01:01:39
jump out your car and run toward a stranger. He didn't know her. He didn't know why she was approaching his car
01:01:48
and demand that they do anything. He didn't have to listen to her. He didn't have to do anything she said.
01:01:59
And the audacity to come here and take that stand and blame everybody else. The prosecution argued the obvious.
01:02:13
Hannah should have minded her own business. The world would be a much better place if more of y'all out there, yeah, you, the ones listening right now, minded your own fucking business.
01:02:28
The defense countered, claiming that Hannah was young, naive, and simply trying to do the right thing.
01:02:34
But how many times have we heard that before? Not understanding. What could happen?
01:02:40
Because she's never been in there. She's 21 years old. Never been in a situation like that.
01:02:45
In her mind, she's a young individual trying to help out. This is not some killer.
01:02:53
This is not some murder. This is a young girl that got caught up in the wrong situation
01:03:00
with a good heart and good intention. The jury had two versions of Hannah Payne to consider.
01:03:08
The defense portrayed her as a well-intentioned but naive young woman. The prosecution painted her as an entitled and smug Karen who took the law into her own hands and ended up killing an innocent man.
01:03:22
In the end, it was the jury's job to decide which version of Hannah was the truth.
01:03:29
And it only took him about two hours to make that decision. More breaking news this time out of Clayton County, where we just heard hours ago,
01:03:36
jury return a verdict in the murder trial of Hannah Payne. The panel deliberated for a little more than two hours,
01:03:43
unanimously finding her guilty on all eight counts. Say it with me. Guilty on all counts.
01:03:54
For Kenneth Haring's family, justice had finally been served. When I heard the first verdict, I know we wasn't supposed to show a sign,
01:04:04
but tears start rolling down my face because at that moment I felt a relief that came over.
01:04:13
And from the first to the second to all the way to the eighth, all I could say was thank you.
01:04:21
Thank you. Thank you. While this trial remained focused on the evidence, the court of public opinion, of course, was much messier.
01:04:30
because Hannah was a white woman who shot a black man. Many on social media, you know, the shit stain that it is,
01:04:40
were quick to label her actions as racially motivated. The prosecutors rejected this theory outright
01:04:46
because the evidence just didn't support it. Besides, Hannah had previously dated a black man.
01:04:53
Her current boyfriend was Dominican and her best friend since childhood was a black woman.
01:04:59
By all accounts, Hannah had a diverse circle of friends. In fact, she must have felt bulletproof.
01:05:08
Anyway, for the state, racism and hatred were never a factor in this case. That's just social media horseshit by other Karens with nothing better to do.
01:05:19
I think people are under the misconception that it was race. We never, ever bought race into this matter.
01:05:25
As I told y'all when she was convicted the other night, that was too simple to say that it was black and white.
01:05:32
You know, we sat in our office for four years. We were having these discussions and trying to figure out why.
01:05:39
Only Hannah Payne knows why she did it. But the fact that we, the certain things that we knew that she, we knew she had an African-American boyfriend, you know.
01:05:47
So that automatically throws out, you know, hate out there, you know, race. We will never know.
01:05:54
we will never know because she never really told us the truth on the stand That story kept changing The district attorney put it bluntly Only Hannah Payne knew why she did what she did
01:06:08
But one could argue that maybe even she didn't fully understand. The people closest to her certainly struggled to make sense of what happened.
01:06:17
Her friends and family were stunned when they learned about it. Those who knew Hannah swore she was one of the kindest people they'd ever met.
01:06:27
At Hannah's sentencing hearing, several of them spoke on her behalf. Payne was in tears at times as her loved ones talked about the person they knew her to be.
01:06:37
I have witnessed her servant's heart more times than I could be permitted to talk about today.
01:06:44
Over the course of time, I have consistently witnessed Hannah opening doors for others.
01:06:50
always express thank yous without hesitation to step in and offer assistance whenever and wherever
01:07:00
needed. If you've ever had a moment where you need to lift a heavy item into your car and a stranger
01:07:07
walked up without being asked and offered to help you, this could have been Hannah.
01:07:12
If you've ever seen a person ask for money on the street and a person give it freely because they
01:07:19
care, that may also have been Hannah. If you have ever seen a stray animal walking too close along
01:07:27
a roadway and a total stranger stop to render help, that also was likely Hannah. And not once,
01:07:35
not ever, have I ever witnessed her be the slightest unkind. The murder of Kenneth Herring
01:07:45
wasn't the work of a cold-blooded killer, but rather several moments where someone's worst instincts took over.
01:07:53
Hannah Payne allowed her inner monster to win. And because of that, a father, a husband, a brother, and a son lost his life.
01:08:03
But what made things even worse was what came next. Rather than take responsibility,
01:08:11
Hannah took her case to trial, trying to convince the jury that her murder victim attacked her and that he had shot himself.
01:08:21
Her lack of remorse spoke volumes. One of the nicest people you've ever met, you say?
01:08:28
Huh. That's interesting. She continued to allow the monster to win, adding to the suffering she had already caused.
01:08:38
At sentencing, Kenneth's family, understandably, pleaded for the maximum punishment.
01:08:45
The prosecution and defense both presented witnesses, among them, Herring's relatives.
01:08:49
I'll never see my brother again, only through pictures. The same sentence that she gave him, I would like to see the same sentence given to her.
01:09:03
Kenneth's family and the prosecution pushed for life without parole. while the defense pleaded for life with the possibility of parole.
01:09:13
Ultimately, the judge chose the latter, but also ordered that some of Hannah's additional charges would run consecutively to her life sentence.
01:09:24
Ms. Payne is going away for life with the possibility of parole. For those of you who do not understand what life with the possibility of parole means,
01:09:32
it means in 30 years that will be the first time that she will be able to come up for parole.
01:09:36
but she's got an additional 13 years. She's a 25-year-old woman. I'm not good with math, but 30 plus 13 would put her somewhere around 78 years old
01:09:47
before she could possibly get out of jail. Hannah Payne was not a career criminal.
01:09:54
She wasn't a hardened killer. By all accounts, she was a decent and ordinary young woman living an ordinary life
01:10:03
until the day she wasn't. Until the day she got so gassed up that she thought she was Batman.
01:10:11
That day, a mix of arrogance, self-righteousness, and adrenaline pushed her past the point of no return.
01:10:20
Women don't seem to do well with adrenaline. Men live with it. Born in darkness.
01:10:27
Molded by it. In Hannah's immature mind, she was a hero. An enforcer of justice.
01:10:34
a caped crusader and a jeep wrangler do you hear how dumb that sounds? but justice was never hers
01:10:43
to deliver and in chasing a moment of control which is all it was she destroyed countless lives
01:10:52
including her own she lost everything one pull of a trigger was all it took for an ordinary woman to become
01:11:01
a murderer the line between man and monster isn't as thick as we'd like to think
01:11:07
it's fucking scary it can happen in an instant to you, to me or anyone else for that matter
01:11:15
when we're least expecting it sometimes all it takes to cross over that line is the wrong belief
01:11:24
that you're on the right side All right, ladies, I think I've beaten you up enough today.
01:11:54
He's so abusive. So why don't you mind your own business and head on over to swordandscale.com.
01:11:58
And until next week... Stay safe Thank you.