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Everything just got a little bit more expensive for every American. Every American is going to have to pay more on
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their student loans, their credit cards, on their mortgages. This is a big deal.
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Hi everyone, this is Pivot from New York Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast Network. I'm Carara Swisser. So I'm an
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adolescent. And when I wake up in the morning, I immediately grab my phone and the first thing I do this morning is I
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open the New York Times app and what do I see? I see this big colorful picture
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of a seven-year-old boy on a climbing wall. Uhhuh. And I look at it and
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granted I'm a little, you know, misty eyed. The edibles, just trying to, you know, no coffee yet, pre- coffee, posted
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edibles. Uhhuh. And I'm like, I recognize that climbing wall. Uhhuh. And then I look, I'm like, that's my
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climbing wall. your climbing wall in my place in Soho. And that's my seven-year-old, specifically my co-host.
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That's my seven-year-old boy, specifically my co-host. And then the next I didn't even read the article. I
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went down to the next picture. The next picture is you looking very professional in my studio. That's correct. Like, are
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you going to start banging my wife? Are you literally assuming my identity? Interesting. Seriously, what's going on
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here? Well, someone was biblidity blabby with the New York Times or someone because all this news got out. So, they
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moved the story forward. I was supposed to have a picture taken in my studio here here. Uh, and they and I said, "Oh,
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we were doing it at Scots. That's the way because that's where I was last week." And so, it turned out well. It It match meshed with the headline. Can you
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say puff piece? Well, let me Okay. What was the title? Climbing future climbing.
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title. I'm sorry. The title of the article was was hold on. How can Cara
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Swisser scales her empire even more? I mean, it was like, oh my god, it's going
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to be that they they literally like scales scales her reach even more. Like,
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wow. I like your quote, though. I like they called this a screw ball comedy. I like that. That was nice. You're feral.
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Apparently, you're feral. That was kind of rough. I know you're But it's true though. It's accurate. Frell, you're
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like, you know, you're I'm sort of calm and I'm like like that. Oh yeah. You're just very chill.
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Yeah, that's right. You're just mushroom chocolates come to life. Yeah. Yeah. I did like your quote about making me a
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billionaire. I really appreciate that. That was an interesting insight of our our copathetic relationship. You don't
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like that I text you at all times? I had no idea. Uh no. Yeah, I know. Most of the time it's
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fine. Yeah, most of the time. Most time I just ignore it. The pivot text thing. I think if I see pivot come up, I'm like
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pivot team. I'm like don't read it. I do sometimes text you directly. All
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these all these stories about the latest the latest in in woke us down. Anyway, no it's not. No, it's not. We have to
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get to No, it's not. It's so untrue. Anyway, thank you. It was a very nice article and the p the photographer was
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amazing. Um she's she uh her last assignment I think was doing the West
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Village Girls for New York Magazine and then she did that beautiful Bill Burr picture. She's known for her blue uh her
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blue uh framing her blue uh I look like a I thought it looked like an ad for a lesbian ganimals.
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Thank you. It just like and the new the new Ganimals section for I love
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Ganimals. that that young lady in your life that's decided she she likes Joan
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Bayas or I don't know or Katie Melissa Eridge Melissa Eridge like it's like okay dockers and a color dockers I was
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wearing Jordans what are you talking about Tommy Bahamas and dockers that's
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how that's what you should request to be buried in seriously I have nice and the hearse needs to be a Subaru or some lame
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Eevee god I'm already planning I'm already How many lesbian tropes are you going to pull out of your little hat.
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You're They're so good, though. They're not good. It's called a Lesboro, first of all. A learu. That's a U-Haul. You
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forgot the U-Haul one. There's so many you're missing. You have to get to Anyway, it was a nice piece. And more to
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the point, thank you again for letting me stay at your beautiful home. I had a great time. And Louie really appreciate it. They have driven across country, the
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two boys, and they're stopping at all kinds of places, which are very funny. Um, and it was really helpful for our
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family. I really appreciate it and thank you for letting me use your climbing wall to become even more egotistical. I
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really appreciate that. To climb to further heights. Yeah. Um Yeah, that was uh it was a good
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article. You must be happy with it. Yeah, it was good. It was good. It was nice. It was very nice. And I like the it it had news of our We're staying at
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Vox. That's really what the news is. Correct. And uh uh that's a really We're happy that deal is done, aren't we?
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Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But most importantly, um my girlfriend said that if our
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podcast um gets uh hits um number number uh gets
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next year's weppy that we'll try anal. So please don't vote. Her strap on is huge and it really scares me. Carol
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really I've been looking up lesbian jokes and I couldn't find anything but I thought that one was pretty funny. That we're going to move you on today because
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we've got a lot to get to today. Anyway, we'll be here for four more years everybody. So just remember at least
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this podcast who knows what's got I loved it. Clearly everyone was going on background correcting each other about the deal trying to make each other look
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better or worse. Yeah. It's a good deal. It's a good deal and it's a good deal for everybody. And you know what I said? I said I told you when we were talking
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about how to do this deal. I'm like you got to start thinking like a billionaire. Like the people you cover. That's right. Yeah. Yeah. You did. You
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did. And we have gotten to a good place. We are very happy to stay here. We do like working with Vox, but we did talk
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to some interesting people. It was an interesting It's an interesting insight into the podcast universe and where
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things are going and uh you have to be creative and tried different things. We do really um we did a lot of things that
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are really interesting um in the deal and hopefully it will yield us both uh many many
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many more riches to come and and good shows mostly um because I think our fans
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tend to like us. Hopefully we'll get even bigger and then I'll be have another piece in four years. Um I don't know where I'll be in your apartment.
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Maybe I'll own your apartment at that point. I'll see about that. Yeah. Yeah. Well, you kind of own it now. You kind
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of It's like having a You don't want to own a boat. You want a friend with a boat. That's kind of where you are right now. I love that. Well, you I wonder if
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you've been there more days this year than I have. I think I have. I think I have. I think I actually congratulations
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on the article. Thank you. Thank you. I'm excited for your FT uh Pink [ __ ] or Salmon [ __ ] article, and you have to
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send it to me when it comes out. Anyway, we've got a lot to get to today. There's a lot going on, including Trump uh bullying Walmart and Apple. How
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ridiculous. And Meta delaying the release of its new AI model. Uh but first, President Joe Biden has been
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diagnosed with an aggressive form of prostate cancer that has spread to his bones. Biden and his family are reviewing treatment options with
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doctors. A statement from his office notes the cancer appears to be hormone sensitive, which allows for effective
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management. Uh messages of support have come in from across the political spectrum, including President Trump,
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though Don Jr. and other MAGA adjacent folks are already spreading theories about cover-ups and conspiracies. Uh,
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all this as a new book and audio recordings are raising questions about his mental fitness over the last few years. Um, any reaction to this news
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except sort of sad sad. Why don't you go first on this one, Carol? I I I'm sad for him. I I don't feel like, you know,
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there's been a lot of people like you should talk more about this Biden book. Look, it's in the rearview mirror. They
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he obviously shouldn't have run. Scott in particular and then I jumped on the same wagon as him uh thought he should
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have stepped down much earlier. We talked about it a lot. We got a lot of attacks for saying that. Uh I don't want
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to say we were right. We just felt we needed it wasn't so much that he it was that he was older, but that we needed a fresh start and someone who who was up
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to the task of the presidency in and by the way, we said the same thing about Donald Trump. He's too old. He's just
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simply too old and is not headed in the right direction mentally uh or physically. So uh so I feel uh but I do
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feel badly this guy's has devoted himself to service. I think on on the whole he will be judged well by history.
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I think he's done a lot of um uh important things. Uh as a as a at an
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interesting evolution. Uh I think the last couple years of his life did have not gone well for him. Um and this is a
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bad this is bad news. As for Don Jr. and other MAGA people doing this, go [ __ ]
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yourselves. It's really grotesque. Um I I you don't He wasn't hiding cancer. He may have had
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it. Maybe he didn't get checked. I don't know. Um, but given that the MAG of people already push who were pushing the
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Epstein suicide conspiracy theories and now Don Dan Vonino who did that, the one of the people who did it is now saying
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it was suicide. It's just these people all they want to do is spread theories to create a mess. And it's sad that
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they're doing it on the in the fact that this guy probably is in a little more
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uh it's probably not a very good prognosis for Joe Biden would be my guess. I'm not a doctor, but sounds like
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it. Yeah. My I mean I had a bunch of thoughts around it. My first thought was how did the president of the United
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States I get scanned all the time now and it was shocking to me that Yeah. his
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first kind of quote unquote diagnosis we know of had a Gleon test of nine. I mean, it's spread to his bones.
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Typically, I would have thought that he'd be getting scans all the time and getting PSA tests all the time and that
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I was shocked that it went so the kind of the first what sounds like the first recognition of it was that it was this
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advanced. He's already seven years past the life expectancy of the average American man. He's he's had a wonderful
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life of service. It's a tragedy for him and his family. not nearly the tragedy that he has endured losing children, but
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you know, he's he's had an incredible life. I and um you know, best wishes to him, but it does bring up some really
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big issues in in what first off the cover up. Yeah, it was a cover up. And
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guess what? Anyone with aging parents, we all are co-conspirators in this cover up because your parents, their brain
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shrinks and they don't realize, no, they they think it's insane that you take their driver's license from them. Yep.
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Well, you kidding. I beat Trump. I'm pushing back on Russia. I passed the
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infrastructure act. Of course, I can be president for another four years. Right. I mean, that was a less crazy statement
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than a lot of the [ __ ] my dad said at 70. Yeah. I mean, you're going through the same thing. So, and not only that,
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the people around you have tremendous goodwill and affection for you and they get co-opted into believing,
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oh, maybe he can go another four years. So, right, there wasn't anything sinister here. There's what happens a
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lot and for me this all goes to the same. Very good point, Scott. And that is we need age limits, folks. Biology is
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undefeated. It's absolutely undefeated. No matter how I I'm I'm I was the first
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to come out of the closet as an aegist and say this guy was too old and Bill Maher called me an aegist and I said I am an aeist. You know who else? A lot of
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[ __ ] I'll tell you that. You did get hurt. You know who was also an agist? Biology. Biology always wins. And the
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reality is this would have put the nation in a real pickle because you would have had a president who probably
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wouldn't have handed over the mantle. Say he'd been reelected who probably wouldn't ever handed over the mantle to Vice President Harris because quite
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frankly Joe Biden is a wonderful man. and he's also a narcissist and would have made the country's leadership less
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robust. We need we have we have made a decision that 34 year olds don't have
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the experience, the cognitive abilities, the reasoning and the judgment to be president. A 74 year old probably
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doesn't. Now I I'm sure there'll be I'm sure there's a hundredyear-old that will do the marathon and does the New York
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Times cross word puzzle every day. We need age limits at the upper limit. What's your age limit again? I forgot. I
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would probably say 75. 70 or 75. Yeah. It's interesting because a lot of places are 65. Like the New York Times editor
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is 65, right? There's there's like I would say um 70. Well, and this is the
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thing. It's not only there's so many benefits to this one. We're about to the Trump administration is about to pass
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through a ridiculous a ridiculous tax bill and all the goodies go to old
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people. Why? because our Congress is a cross between the Golden Girls and the
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land of the walking dead. So they keep voting themselves more money and great young people who understand technology
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and have a tendency to think more about climate change and the deficit because they're going to be around for 50 years.
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Do you realize in 30 years se 3quarters of Congress is going to be dead? So this creates a lack of vested interest in
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forward-leaning future investments. In addition, you you end up with a
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situation where I see this happen at universities where tenure faculty won't go away, creating a lack of opportunity.
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You've been talking about this for a while. You about the tenure system, you and not only that, it's it's the kindest
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thing to do because and I'm I'm bragging here, but I'm typic I'm often times on
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the board people go, "He's the [ __ ] Let him have the hard conversations." Mhm. I've had two conversations with
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CEOs who were aging to say it's time for you to step down. I've also had conversations with other directors who
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step down from the CEO of their company and the only thing they have is that [ __ ] board directorship where they
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show up at free dinner every 3 months and speak big thoughts and they love saying I'm on the board of this public
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company. And here's the thing that's wonderful about 10 term limits and age limits is you can send people off and
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say you've been amazing. Here's your gold watch. Right. And then it's not the excuse, but you do there is a sense of
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like people who want to hold on. I was at a one of the one of these like clubs on the upper east side and it was full
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of those guys and I kept thinking they just can't let go. They can't you know what I mean? Like it was interesting.
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You see why I had one of these conversations not with a co but with a director and he was like he said I
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remember he was very gracious about it. He said I know this was a hard conversation. He goes and you know what he said? He said you know what at the end of the day he's like it's time for
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me to go home and die. And that's how people see this is wait you want to send me home this is all I have you know
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that's the issue with my mom too she knows right they know this is it this is the if they have to stop it mean or they
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stop getting decision-m power or power whatever in Biden's case it's just tragic because it puts a I want to get
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it back to Biden but the ending of this is not good it's not a good thing and especially when you have crazy [ __ ]
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MAGA people they were going on about Jill Biden not knowing about she's not a medical doctor people. She's his wife
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really and so but she does call herself doctor. That was a mistake. She does call herself doctor. She is has a
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doctorate. Whatever. In any case, this has not ended well and this
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is how it often happens. It people don't end well. Can you make me a promise? Can we end well?
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So to to to be clear I mean I'm I'm not obsessed with death but I I'm I'm
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looking Me too. You know I think a lot about it. I have set aside money. I want
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to know. I know where I want to die. I know the drugs. I know the people I have set up. I want to watch Apple. I want to
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live my life again. I've thought about the Apple reels. I've thought about the music and I want to like that great Mexican artist who Freda Freda Kayla
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Freda said I I want my death to be glorious and I don't want to come back. I want to I'm I purposely and also I've
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decided at a certain age I'm done. I'm off of social media and I'm not going
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I'm just going to enjoy relationships and do just fun [ __ ] because you know what
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at you have to you have an obligation at some point to make room for other
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people. Yeah. To say okay. It's true. It's it's time to give a fresh voices an
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opportunity here. It's time to create some room at the top of the pyramid.
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There are so many outstanding young people who should be running for I'm not going out like you. I'm just going to
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let nature take its course with carer. But I'll be there for you if you want that. I appreciate that. Yeah. I'll do
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an interpretive dance in front of you just before you die. You'll just start climbing on my climbing wall. So anyway,
00:16:24
we have to move on. This is getting dark. Moody's speaking of something that's not doing so well. Moody's has
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officially downgraded the US credit rating. You wrote me right away about this. stripping the country of its last
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AAA rating of the last uh of the three major agencies. Moody's blamed the downgrade on successive administrations
00:16:40
in Congress failing to reverse the trend of large annual fiscal def deficits and growing interest costs. The credit
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downgrade comes as Republicans try to pass Trump's big beautiful bill. I wish you would not call it that. Um a
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sweeping tax and spending package estimated to increase the deficit by about $4
00:16:57
trillion. The bill cleared the House Budget Committee late Sunday night after initially getting blocked by some GOP
00:17:03
deficit hawks. They never hold on these hawks. It sucks. In terms of the market reaction, as of this recording, stocks
00:17:08
are down and the 30-year Treasury yield just hit its highest level in a year and a half. Uh you texted me, "This is big."
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When the Moody's news broke, um explain to people why this downgrade is more than a symbolic move. Um Scott Besset
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was all over uh the the TVs on the weekend calling it uh the calling dismissed Moody's calling it a lagging
00:17:28
indicator on Meet the Press. He also said it's no big deal that consumers have to pay tariff money. Of course, he
00:17:35
admitted they will have to and it won't be China that's paying. And by the way, there's a new acronym for people ditching American investments which
00:17:41
you've talked about a lot. Abusa anywhere but the USA. So talk a little
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bit about this because you wrote this is you don't you do not respond to a lot of stuff when we text you or I text you. Um
00:17:53
this one you did everything just got a little bit more expensive for every American. We we were talking about
00:18:00
corporate boards and companies. We spend a lot of time assessing the marketplace
00:18:05
and trying to figure out when we go out and borrow money for growth, how we ensure we get the highest rating
00:18:12
possible from the a these agencies whose job is to do the diligence that most investors don't have the time to do. And
00:18:17
then based on the rating they give you saying what is the likelihood of default? What is the likelihood of the
00:18:22
risk that these this entity won't be able to pay back the money? And based on the rating, it's the interest rate you
00:18:29
have to pay to people in order for them to take the risk and loan you money. And if you get a good rating and you say,
00:18:35
you know what, let's not borrow as much money. Let's borrow less such that our multiple our debt to call it EBIT ratio
00:18:41
is a little bit lower and we get a better credit rating and we can borrow money at a lower cost, meaning that the
00:18:47
interest on that debt is not as big. So we can make more investments in forward-leaning growth related
00:18:54
investments. And often times if you get to a point where you keep borrowing more and more money and then start borrowing
00:19:00
money to pay the debt, which we are doing now, it causes a downward spiral where at some point you begin to look
00:19:07
like a Donald Trump enterprise where he's done the following. I'll borrow money from anyone who's stupid enough to
00:19:12
loan me money from my casino and if it works out and all the projections hit, I can pay it back and make a lot of money.
00:19:18
and if it doesn't work out, I'll just declare default. Okay, declaring default in the United States would be really bad
00:19:25
for all of us. I mean, people I can't even imagine what might happen. You might see ATM stop working. And so
00:19:32
essentially what has happened here is is the third and final agency of the big three has said our ability to pay back
00:19:38
our debt based on the reckless fiscal policy, our reckless spending and inability to raise taxes or raise
00:19:44
revenues means that we are now a larger risk than we were just last year. And as
00:19:51
a result, every American is going to have to pay more on their student loans, their credit cards, on their mortgages,
00:19:57
and companies will likely have to pay more, meaning we will have less money to invest and grow. This is a big deal
00:20:04
along with the tariffs, which Besson was admitting finally. But the deficits here, they're talking about adding $4.5
00:20:10
trillion to the deficits. And again, see above catering to old people in America. They're not cutting social security.
00:20:17
They're not cutting Medicare for old people because even old rich people like their Medicare. They're cutting Medicaid
00:20:23
supposedly about 8 million people are going to lose their Medicaid populace
00:20:29
will have a sicker populace. They're cutting SNAP payments which by the way show a 2 to 7% return on investment as
00:20:36
little kids don't grow up to have diabetes and need hip replacements and kidney dialysis. So let's cut. It's as
00:20:43
if we're literally in a movie here and America is Nicholas Cage and leaving Las Vegas. And he's thought, I'm just so
00:20:50
[ __ ] rapidly addicted to alcohol as American old people are too addicted to spending above their means that I'm just
00:20:57
going to ignore the future and I'm just going to drink myself to death because
00:21:02
all of my debts and all of my relationships don't matter because I'm going to be dead soon. This is literally
00:21:08
how we're behaving in the United States right now because we are borrowing according to this tax plan $5 trillion
00:21:15
from our kids and we'll it the chickens won't come to roost while while we're
00:21:21
still still alive. But they will come to roost and our kids are going to have to pay this [ __ ] back, right? Or do it pay
00:21:27
it forward again, which is what you know what happens and at some point it does spend out of control. The fact that
00:21:33
people to understand Donald Trump is the one that has increased the deficit more than any other president in the history
00:21:39
of the presidency. George Washington to George Bush 7 trillion, Donald Trump 8
00:21:44
trillion. And by the way, Biden continued it with 5 trillion. And now
00:21:50
everyone it's like that that number I think of -40.40 is where Celsius and
00:21:55
Fahrenheit meet. That is a really inhospitable bad environment. And whenever the far left
00:22:01
and the far right meet, that means it's an inhospitable bad idea. The far left and the far right meet on antivaccine
00:22:07
craziness. They meet on anti-semitism. And they meet on reckless spending and tax cuts such that we can explode the
00:22:13
deficit. This is negative 40. Why don't these GOP deficit talks ever stick? I mean, seriously, they never stick. I'm
00:22:20
like waiting. Chip Roy, get yourself a [ __ ] backbone. You you you say it out loud and you say, "I'm not going to do
00:22:26
this." And then every time you get Mike Johnson, I don't know what he's doing to you, but it it's like like the you're
00:22:32
the only people that can stop this and you won't. So really what you're saying is crap. Really, I have to say I'm
00:22:38
always I mean I hate the moral argument I'm going to make it. It's so cruel because no, they're not talking about I
00:22:44
I could sort of at least theoretically get on board with the following. We have to make really painful cuts. I would
00:22:51
make them around social security. I'd make them probably around some of our military spending. You know, I'm
00:22:58
sympathetic to the argument of we we are fiscally irresponsible. We are robbing from future generations. So, we have to
00:23:03
make really ugly, painful cuts. It's terrible, but it stops to be an adult. But we're going to match every dollar
00:23:10
cut one or two one with an increase in revenues by increasing the taxes on
00:23:16
corporations. We're going to have an alternative minimum tax on anyone saying making more than a million dollars. I
00:23:22
could hold my nose and get on board with that. But all these quote unquote fiscal hawks aren't saying we need to talk
00:23:30
about the other side of the ledger and raise revenues. What they're saying is these Medicare cuts, I'm sorry, these
00:23:36
Medicaid cuts don't go deep enough, right? And I mean, this [ __ ] is really
00:23:42
scary for some people. And it's not only immoral, it's it's uneconomic. It's
00:23:48
economically stupid. That's if you appeal to the degree, you're going to have a sick, fat,
00:23:54
uh, struggling, angry population under you who can't earn and have no economic
00:23:59
opportunities. You know where that's going to go. Anyway, uh, let's go in a quick break. Uh, when we come back,
00:24:05
Trump uh, gets pissy with Walmart and Apple. Scott, we're back. President Trump spent the weekend bullying Walmart
00:24:11
after the company CEO said some of the prices could rise within weeks because of the terrorists, obviously. In a post
00:24:17
on True Social, Trump told Walmart to eat the tariffs and warned, "I'll be watching and so will your customers."
00:24:22
Scott Besson said that he's spoken with Walmart CEO and the company will absorb some of the tariffs and some may get
00:24:27
passed on to consumers. About onethird of Walmart's products come from outside the US with large share coming from
00:24:33
China and Mexico. And it's not just Walmart. Trump's taking aim at Apple, too. He says that he had a little
00:24:40
problem with CEO Tim Cook after hearing the company plans to ramp up iPhone production in India. Apple's trying to
00:24:47
cut its reliance on China and aiming to make the most I make most of the iPhones sold in the US at factories in India by
00:24:53
the end of 2026. Apple announced that $500 billion investment in the US back in February, but apparently that's not
00:24:59
enough for Trump. Um, let's listen to Trump recount his conversation with Tim Cook. Tim, I said, Tim, look, we've
00:25:05
treated you really good. We put up with all the plants that you built in China for years. Now you got to build us.
00:25:12
We're not interested in you building in India. India can take care of themselves. They're doing very well. We
00:25:18
want you to build here. So uh two things very melesome with the companies in terms of how they should price it and
00:25:24
putting reality tariffs cost money and they're going to pass them on to consumers. Uh what do what is this? I'll
00:25:30
be watching strategy and telling people where to build and thoughts. Well, we've talked about this before. We've seen a
00:25:36
separation between church and state or that separation begin to erode. And just
00:25:42
as important from an economic standpoint is the separation between uh business
00:25:47
and state and that is uh Obama shouldn't have been picking
00:25:52
winners. Uh I I agree with that. And the and he shouldn't be deciding based on his blood sugar level or who he likes or
00:26:00
doesn't like. he shouldn't be singling out companies because that that is a form of corruption because everyone
00:26:05
lines up to just kiss his ass. And in that he's a terrible business person. Do
00:26:11
you realize that since the iPhone was launched, Apple has trained over 28
00:26:16
million Chinese workers on high-tech manufacturing and also they make about 500 bucks a month at least an entry-
00:26:23
level assembler in China. We're not we're not bringing those jobs back to the US. They've also invested about they
00:26:31
invest about $55 billion a year into the Chinese economy, which you could argue
00:26:36
was the wrong investment or stupid. That's I mean, they've made these extraordinary investments. And if you
00:26:42
were to bring back, which you you feasibly just can't do it, but let's just say for shits and giggles, we brought back manufacturing the iPhone to
00:26:49
the US. That's a $3,500 iPhone. Yeah. Well, you you said it there's a there's
00:26:55
a statistic it would need to spend $30 billion over three years to move 10 just 10% of its supply chain to the US
00:27:01
according to one estimate and you had noted that that the tariff was going to help India like I I just it's not going
00:27:08
to happen. It's just simply not going to happen. But talk more about this. I'll be watching does it does it does it at
00:27:14
some point do they not they just ignore him or what? I think what they say is we're going, you know, the president is
00:27:20
right. We need to build more manufacturing in the US. We're announcing and just say, okay, the
00:27:26
supply chain here is the most complex supply chain in history. We're going to start to build stuff that I knew what
00:27:31
it's like to get zoning and nimi. it's going to take a year da da da and just wait till he's about until he's out of
00:27:38
office because to bring the supply chain of to produce Apple at 50% of the
00:27:46
capacity they would need in the US. I mean, A would probably crush their market by 50 their market share by 50 or
00:27:53
60 points and probably take the most held stock in the world down 40 or 60%
00:27:59
within a year if they ever really said they were going to try and do that. People People can't afford a third. I
00:28:05
mean, the market for a $1,000 iPhone is probably five or eight what the market
00:28:11
is for a $3,500 iPhone. I'd even be like, that that's a lot of money. And
00:28:16
then they well all the stories would be oh you just that's a huge gift to the Korean company Samsung. So that's just
00:28:22
not going to happen. So what I bet they do is a couple press releases about how we're he's right. We're going to invest
00:28:28
more in American manufacturing. You know, if if the real opportunity here of think
00:28:35
going to solutions in my view is to kiss and make up with China and to convince them to use some of their manufacturing
00:28:41
pro proess to build factories in the US similar to the way Japanese automobile companies have built Japanese car brand
00:28:48
plants in the US. But even then it would have to be super high-end manufacturing because to justify the cost of our
00:28:54
labor. Um anyways, this is this is a distraction. Um uh Walmart gets about I
00:29:02
think about a third of its products are imported. Um they will just and Walmart
00:29:08
if he wants to take on Walmart and Apple I think that is you know that's crazy.
00:29:14
And then this ridiculous notion that Scott Bennett is saying well Walmart is going to eat the tariffs. Walmart
00:29:20
operates Walmart's whole value proposition is it it passes on cost savings to the consumer. They operate at
00:29:26
a business of scale with very low margins, but it's got more scale than any company in the world. I think it's the biggest topline company in the
00:29:33
world. So, the notion that they can absorb these costs and not pass them on to consumers. It's ridiculous. It's just
00:29:39
not I mean, okay, say they decided to do that for the benefit of consumers, that takes their earnings down, which takes their share price down, which means for
00:29:46
hiring down, which which means the wealth of American households go down, which means they make fewer investments, fewer hires, less money for bonuses. I
00:29:53
mean, okay, that's a cost. You might argue, well, that hurts shareholders. Fine, you can make that argument. But
00:30:00
folks, they've got a business to run, and they will figure out a way to optimize their margins. Correct. And
00:30:06
it'll it'll He is living in a different era. He's a shitty business person. He doesn't understand economics in an era
00:30:12
that doesn't exist anymore. It's Anyway, we have to move on. It's just ridiculous. He shouldn't be meddling,
00:30:18
putting his fat fingers, fat shorts fingers in the in people's corporate decision-m. Um, Meta is delaying the
00:30:25
release of its Behemoth, its largest llama 4 AI model. Behemoth was
00:30:30
originally scheduled to be released in April, but the company is now aiming for fall. um you know these this is this is
00:30:38
something that seemed expected that these these these these AI models would
00:30:44
run into um problems as they move forward. Um uh another problem Meta is
00:30:50
facing though is fraud. According to documents reviewed by the Wall Street Journal, Meta is the leader in the pack when it comes to internet scams. The
00:30:56
tech giant claimed nearly half of all reported scams on zel between uh 20 23
00:31:01
and 24. Regulators in the UK and Australia found that 70% of the new advertisers on the platform are
00:31:06
promoting scams or lowquality products. Of course, they'll take their business. However, employees have reported a
00:31:11
reluctance to limit advertisers reporting allowing up to 32 automated strikes before uh financial fraud uh for
00:31:18
financial fraud before banning accounts. I mean, seriously. Seriously. And meanwhile, over at places like
00:31:25
Microsoft, they're laying off 3% of its staff. Over 40% of layoffs were in engineering. The cuts come after Sachin
00:31:32
Nadella announced up to 30% of the company's code is now written by AI. He himself is now listening to podcasts by
00:31:38
AI. He they they synopsize them so he doesn't have to listen to the whole thing. Um which was a weird little fact
00:31:44
that was in one of the stories. Um so what's going on here? Let's talk first about the difficulties that AI is
00:31:52
running into and then the difficulties that tech companies are running into. It's uh so I'm involved in a company
00:31:59
called section which is um upskilling uh AI for the enterprise right trying to help companies figure
00:32:05
out how to leverage AI and the CEO of the company my friend Greg Schauve I you know my whole wrap has always been that
00:32:11
AI is not going to take your job someone who understands AI is going to take your job and he said well some of that's true
00:32:17
but AI is in fact taking jobs and there's been a real kind of gag from a
00:32:22
lot of employees if you they're very suspicious of AI at the enterprise like
00:32:28
okay are you asking me to cooperate in my own execution here
00:32:33
um this will be great for Microsoft's bottom line I mean you know that is that
00:32:40
is absolutely the nitroglycerin of an explosion in earnings is when you can reduce you know these costs and they
00:32:47
claim that it's more about efficiency and not not cost cutting on a personal
00:32:52
level I've been I don't want to call myself a not a victim that I started getting text messages of a video and and
00:33:00
and a few people say that I didn't know that well should I do this and I click on it and it's a video that was running
00:33:06
on Instagram and it was me saying uh I'm
00:33:11
each week at my three best stock tips uh right now on the the WhatsApp I have a
00:33:17
WhatsApp group and it was and it was it looked pretty good on a phone on a
00:33:22
computer you could tell it was AI but it looked pretty could. And people were sending it to me saying, "Are you aware of this? Should I do this?" So, someone,
00:33:30
a scammer, had figured out a way to create an AI representation of me trying to get Bill People into spending money to join a WhatsApp group where I would
00:33:37
make quote unquote stock picks. We complained viciferously early and often
00:33:44
to Meta. You can still find it, Cara. Yep. They don't care. It's like, oh,
00:33:49
people are clicking on it. Yeah. So these scams are and what I don't get
00:33:55
is and they could absolutely use AI themselves to figure out this [ __ ] and take [ __ ] down. Yeah. They want more
00:34:02
advertisers. You remember when Amazon was doing books of mine that weren't books of mine. It's the same thing. I
00:34:07
mean the but these companies don't want to fix this stuff otherwise they would clean it up. Like it was they want more
00:34:13
advertisers. they they they leave con it's the consistent record of this company to
00:34:19
screw consumers before themselves like before fixing the problem or or taking
00:34:24
the cost uh that it would take to do this because they they just want to I mean can you imagine that many knocks
00:34:31
before you get thrown off like do you need that many knocks before 32 automated strikes for financial fraud
00:34:38
before banning accounts like it's just why isn't it two or five or why don't we investigate after five and then dump
00:34:45
after 10 or something. It just is it's it's a company that doesn't care about that because um they're just you know
00:34:53
and these companies will cut let me just say software engineers they will cut you
00:34:58
tomorrow if the minute they can have AI write this code they are in love with it they're in love with the savings as
00:35:04
Scott said and they will do it because that's what they do they are very good at becoming more efficient and and of
00:35:11
course people are hardly their concern that's my that's always been my impression yeah and and and to be fair I
00:35:16
think that's what they should do. But they should use technology to become more efficient and reinvest the capital in in higher growth areas. The the thing
00:35:23
that struck me just talking about the difference between new media, meta, and
00:35:28
old media, the New York Times, there's clear AI, financial fraud, trying to
00:35:34
misrepresent people and scam people doesn't get taken down. Do you know how many times that reporter from the New
00:35:41
York Times doing the story on you called me to fact check? 53, right? Yeah. Oh my god, where did you get that? You told us
00:35:47
this number. Where'd you get it? And I'd have to walk him through the math and go, okay, are you sure? Yeah. And then you call me back and say, but define the
00:35:54
term profits and top of the guy spent three or four days going line by
00:36:01
line such that he could look anyone in the face and say what we wrote here was as close to the truth and as accurate as
00:36:08
we could be. And then you have Meta, right? Yeah. Putting out representation.
00:36:13
A really good point. He called yesterday or two days ago. Yesterday he had like, "Can I call these 19 people to check
00:36:19
something that didn't even make it in the story some of them, you know, that got caught later." You're right. That is a Scott. Once again, you're insightful
00:36:26
and I'm very You're just You're just feeling affectionate cuz I let you use my climbing wall. I love your climbing wall. Whose idea was that? Take a
00:36:33
picture of me on the climbing wall. Yeah, I look good on the climbing wall. Be a deitful. It was a good idea. It was
00:36:39
You look like Viche like summiting Everest for a fundraiser. It was in your studio. Anyway, we're moving on. We go
00:36:45
to Creek and talk about Lannister going up a man. And who was the hero of that
00:36:51
series? He's the protagonist. Although I did like Jamie. I did like Jaime. He
00:36:57
loved his sister, but he also loved Briana Tarth. He evolved from a horrible man to a good man. Very complicated,
00:37:02
very complex, but the short guy was the hero of that entire thing. Anyway, Scott, uh, let's go on a quick break.
00:37:08
When we come back, uh, Novo Nordisk pushes out its CEO. This is a topic I'm eager to talk to you about. I so should
00:37:15
have married a wildling. Scott, we're back. Ompic maker Novo Nordisk has pushed out its CEO as it
00:37:22
loses ground in the anti-obesity drug market. Lars Jorgensson, who has run the company for eight years, will step down
00:37:28
following the stock price dives and impatience from uh the nonprofit that controls the company. In recent years,
00:37:34
the company has struggled with supply shortages and the production of WGOI and the steep competition from Eli Lilly's
00:37:39
Monero and Zepbound. to say nothing of the of the knockoffs that are happening, which they're trying to rein in, but
00:37:45
it's not they're not being as successful. They're trying. Novo Nordisk shares have fallen over 50% since 2024.
00:37:50
It had a huge upsurge when this became popular. And we're on the topic, Weight Watchers filed for bankruptcy, which was
00:37:56
another prediction win for you, Scott, by the way. Um, talk about what's happening here because, you know, we had
00:38:02
talked about these industries going to the moon. It's sort of like Nvidia going to the moon because of people interested in it.
00:38:08
Turns out even if you have a successful thing, watch out if you're not running it strongly or you don't you you have to
00:38:15
keep in competence competition jumps. Same thing see Tesla see all these things. Yeah. But this was asked about the motor and basically said that Nova
00:38:21
Nordisk is a good company but it's not an exceptionally innovative company and they kind of slipped and fell on a diabetes drug that also had youth across
00:38:30
OB GLP1 obesity but it wasn't it wasn't kind of this great innovation and they
00:38:36
wrote it up and your job when you're blessed with that sort of extraordinary luck and additional capital is to create moes and that either through
00:38:43
distribution or branding or preference at the doctor level and then in the US I
00:38:48
forget what it was all there the a bunch of drugs were given clearance sort of off label because of the
00:38:53
shortages and I imagine the board has just said look you had a moment to really take advantage of what is
00:39:00
probably a once in a career lifetime moment and create some barriers or brand
00:39:05
equity or lock up distribution to maintain and my guess is their margins are just getting hammered by all of
00:39:11
these competitors I honestly quite frankly I think his loss is probably the
00:39:16
world's gain meaning that there's competition and they're not able to sustain their kind of ustrous margins. I
00:39:22
would I think one of the biggest unlocks for health care would be if GLP1 drugs went down to 10 bucks a month instead of
00:39:28
a thousand a month because this is if you look at you know if you look at the
00:39:33
delta between $6,500 a year per capita health spend and 13,000 a lot of it is
00:39:38
insurance um a lot of it is complexity of billing and a lot of it is obesity
00:39:44
and so I'd love to see I I was happy to see this quite frankly because I don't want to see if Nova Nordisk had gone on
00:39:51
it's been cut in half. But if it had quadrupled in the last year, that just would have meant probably additional
00:39:57
penetration, but also that they were able to figure out ways to monopolize a market where they were charging people $1,000 a month to stay on this. Yeah.
00:40:04
So, what about the Weight Watchers one? This is a prediction you made. Um, obviously they were trying to get into this market. They have been with the
00:40:11
CEO. I've interviewed her. They were trying to shift. they've been trying to they keep shift I have had so many interviews with so many CEOs of Weight
00:40:17
Watchers and the shifting has been really hard and I think at it hard is their business model doesn't work
00:40:23
anymore in the new environment um but they tried to go to these drugs and they tried this and they tried that they
00:40:29
tried to call WW they tried to do a different thing all the time why did you predict that and what do you think of
00:40:34
what's happened at the end of 23 and I heard from all of these companies I said you do not want to be an investor in
00:40:40
alcohol stocks in the food industrial complex around sugary shitty food or in
00:40:46
uh weight loss that doesn't involve GLP-1. And I had logos including the logos of Weight Watchers. And I'm like,
00:40:51
I don't I I typically make stock bets going long. And in November of 23, I made a huge my big recommendation was to
00:40:58
go short all these companies. I My technology of the year 2024 wasn't AI. I
00:41:03
said that in 23. It was GLP1. I I think it's more revolutionary than AI, quite frankly. And while everyone's focused on
00:41:10
AI, they're not looking at what what America's economy is run on is addiction. And this is the biggest
00:41:16
thing. This is scaffolding on our primitive instincts that haven't been updated to industrial production. And
00:41:23
Weight Watchers was just quite frankly shitty technology. You know, they that just
00:41:28
shouldn't be in business. I love this. This is capitalism at work. I don't So what do you what do you where is this
00:41:34
going to go? This is something you've tal You talked about this very early. Where do you imagine these bit is just more competition just the way EVs are
00:41:41
doing that and lots of people are you know at the same time EV is is still a
00:41:46
very rocky business and um people are the uptake is still not there for consumers it's it's growing but not in
00:41:53
the way people thought it would. This has such extraordinary potential
00:41:58
you know who's the winner here. Well, I don't. So, this is what I'm hoping. I'm
00:42:04
hoping there's a lot of companies that make billions, but I'm hoping there aren't that many that make hundreds of billions because one of the biggest
00:42:11
detriments to society is that there aren't more industries like the airline industry or jet manufacturing or PCs
00:42:18
where no small number of companies are able to develop monopoly power through regulatory capture. And the cost to get
00:42:24
from Paris to New York is only $400, which is an incredible unlock for the economy and for consumers. Mhm. And I
00:42:31
think an incredible unlock for the health of the world and ultimately lower
00:42:36
taxation because we end up paying for obesity in the form of Medicare, Medicaid or depression. Do you realize
00:42:42
that people who are good-looking on average make 8% more per year in compensation? Yes, I do.
00:42:49
And you get nine, right? And especially if they can climb, as you read in the New York Times, especially if they can
00:42:54
climb. She scales her empire even bigger. Um, and you know what, overweight
00:43:01
people, the industrial food complex decided it would be politically correct to tell people they're not finding diabetes. They're finding their truth
00:43:07
and that it's okay to be obese. Do you need empathy for them? Yeah. But also re recognize they're more likely to be
00:43:13
depressed and get laid off and have trouble finding a mate. Yeah. And so I
00:43:18
would love to see, you want to talk about an unlock, get people the money such that they can work out, get people
00:43:24
the money such that they can eat good food, and if they start spilling over from being overweight to obesity,
00:43:29
immediately get them affordable GLP-1 drugs. So get this, in 2023, the
00:43:35
neighborhood with the greatest concentration of GLP-1 use was also the neighborhood that's the thinnest in the
00:43:40
nation. And that's the Upper East Side, kind of ladies of lunch looking to lose the last 10. Now, good news is the
00:43:46
latest data shows that the state of Kentucky leads the nation uh in GLP-1 use now. But if you if you shove GLP1
00:43:53
drugs into red states and rural areas where people because they don't have enough money have to ingest their
00:43:59
calories, they start calling themselves they them. But go ahead. What what would happen? Well, no, it would be a huge
00:44:05
unlock. So this is I I I just hope I really hope that we see a world where
00:44:11
GOP1 drugs where there's just massive bloody ugly full body contact
00:44:17
competition that brings the cost of these things way way down. That would be great. Good point. All right, Scott, one
00:44:24
more quick break. We'll be back for wins and fails. Okay, Scott, let's do wins and fails. I shall start today. Unless
00:44:30
you want to. Would you want to? No, go ahead. All right. So the fail is so obviously Amazon announcing that it will
00:44:36
work with Humane, the AI company launched by Muhammad bin Salman to build an AI zone in Saudi Arabia. For people
00:44:43
don't know, uh, a lot of the Arab states are trying very hard to become the data center. There's all kinds of privacy
00:44:48
issues, etc. But they're trying really hard to do that. The only issue with something like Amazon is that in 2018,
00:44:55
Jamal Kosi, a writer for the Bezos own Washington Post, was killed and dismembered with the approval of the
00:45:01
Saudi crown prince. Um, I just just like this guy doesn't have any like he was
00:45:08
just appearing at his funeral saying how terrible it was and then a year two years later or whatever, hey, no
00:45:14
problem. And it's fine for other people. I guess they're all going to show up there for this guy. Um, but it just was
00:45:20
particularly vexing if you're if you're Washington Post person. I know you don't feel bad for the Washington Post people, but dismembering and and vivisecting a
00:45:28
columnist is not something you should do business with. Um, I would say President Trump attacking Taylor Swift, Bruce
00:45:35
Springsteen, and now apparently Beyonce, uh, Oprah. He wants to sue them all and investigate them for singing for Kla
00:45:42
Harris is stupid, but I don't really care. It's just ridiculousness. Um, and for my win, well, obviously it's going
00:45:48
to be um Tom Cruz for this week, for this movie. Um, for Final Reckoning, I'm
00:45:55
going to go by myself. I'll probably see it multiple times. I don't care what you think of me, but uh that is that is what
00:46:01
I am that is I'm so excited about it. It's a win that it's here and that Cara can finally be happy. Uh because I've
00:46:07
been waiting for it for a while. I love Mission Impossibles. I love them. Love them. Love them. So that's it. Nice.
00:46:13
Yeah. Um so my win is uh experts and specifically
00:46:22
I'm obsessed with this woman. I'm getting I hate to admit I'm getting so much reward
00:46:27
out of Instagram uh reels and Tik Tok and I found this wonderful doctor uh who
00:46:33
has a PhD in nutrition named I and I apologize if I got her name wrong. Dr. Jessica Canuric I think is how you say
00:46:39
her name. And I was one of these people that really fell into this notion that kind of the government had always chosen
00:46:46
the least expensive option and was spraying our crops with just terrible pesticides and that the food supply had
00:46:52
been infected in America. And then I fell further into the trap because food does rot much quick much more quickly
00:46:58
here in the in the UK. And I thought, okay, that means they're not being sprayed with pesticides. And then into
00:47:04
that void slipped a lot of quacks pushing supplements saying, "Okay, you
00:47:10
can find this chemical that they're spraying on this stuff at Home Depot and that's why you should buy my supplement." Or this basic thing, you
00:47:17
can't trust exports. You can't trust the CDC. You can't trust the NIH. And they were using this as a vehicle to create
00:47:23
distrust amongst institutions and also for them that's quoteunquote life hack or wellness experts to sell their [ __ ]
00:47:29
despite the fact they have absolutely no um credentials. And this woman um has
00:47:35
basically she is so good and science-based and basically debunks all
00:47:41
of this [ __ ] and she acknowledges where they have some valid points and where they don't. And I just think she's
00:47:48
fantastic. And um and she talks about she goes into public policies that
00:47:54
actually uh work. You know, expert-led campaigns at the CDC and the World Health
00:48:00
Organization are actually, you know, they're responsible for multiple public health victories. Um the World Health
00:48:06
Organization reports an 8% decrease in tobacco usage globally since 2000. from the CDC's push for measles vaccinations
00:48:13
has presented 57 million deaths worldwide since just 2000. And you know
00:48:19
her her view I'm so in line with her. Politicians want to create policy that is more effective and more trusted by
00:48:26
the American public. They should um step aside and let scientists and health professionals 100% lead the charge. And
00:48:33
I love uh she has a constant theme which I have parited and that is if these folks were really serious about health,
00:48:40
they would address income inequality. That's correct. And uh so anyways, I'm I'm fascinated and I just love I love
00:48:48
when someone is making experts cool again because she's an expert and she's so good and so facts based and so
00:48:54
reasoned. And then what is my what is my loss here, Cara? Oh. Um, uh, thanks to
00:49:02
RFK Jr., vaccine misinformation is back in full throttle. Clips of Trump's pick
00:49:08
for surgeon general Casey Means discussing the link between autism and vaccines have surfaced. Uh, in addition,
00:49:14
her claims of leaving medical residency because of disillusionment with the medical system again that you can't
00:49:20
trust the deep state. Well, someone did some research and found out that's total [ __ ] She left because she couldn't
00:49:26
handle the stress. Mhm. Not she just couldn't make and by the way I've dated someone who was in her residency and I
00:49:33
saw how kind of out of control. I do think it's too stressful. Just wish for sure. Well, it's sort of it there's a
00:49:40
certain amount of what I call hazing involved. She used to have to do 36-hour straight shifts. And I'm like, yeah, on
00:49:45
your 35th hour, you're probably not giving very good medical care, but there's a certain abused children syndrome. But that's that's a different
00:49:52
talk show. Mhm. But our our new our old surgeon general VC Morty is exactly who
00:49:58
you would want. Talking about loneliness, talking about the impact on isolation of young men, really thinking
00:50:04
thoughtfully about health issues. And here we have a vaccine denier who claims she left the medical profession because
00:50:10
of quote unquote the deep state and she became disillusioned. No, own up. Stand on your own two feet. You couldn't hack
00:50:16
it. And this is who we have. an antivaccine antivaccine conspiracy
00:50:22
theorist who couldn't hack her residency and is now you know is now jumped on
00:50:29
this antivaccine train which will create tremendous um um an increase in death disease and
00:50:37
disability vaccinations according to the World Health Organization who of course people don't want to listen to because
00:50:42
they actually do science has hands down been one of the best ways to prevent diseases it's estimated that essential
00:50:48
vaccines vacines have saved at least 154 million lives. Uh during the same
00:50:53
period, vaccination has reduced infant deaths by get this 40%. Before any
00:50:59
vaccine is introduced in a country, the vaccine developed in a laboratory underos rigorous and stringent testing
00:51:04
through multiple phases of clinical trials. Health authorities carefully evaluate the results of these trials to
00:51:10
help ensure that the vaccine meets the highest safety and efficacy standards before being considered suitable for
00:51:15
use. RFK Junior is out there lying. These things are very safe. Like any medicine, sure, there's a there's
00:51:22
there's a there's a risk in terms of side effects. They are so dwarfed by the benefits, it's almost like not even
00:51:27
worth reporting. And they're usually uh very minor and in short duration, such
00:51:32
as a sore arm or mild fever, and more serious side effects are possible, but extremely yeah, it's extremely rare how
00:51:41
they benefit from conspiracy theories. I don't know how they live with themselves in that regard, but they do. And just a
00:51:47
cherry on the top of fails, if this tax bill passes, it'll be the largest transfer of wealth from the poor to the
00:51:53
rich in a single law in US history. We have decided to borrow $5 trillion from our kids, use it so we can go to Cabo
00:52:00
and pay for our new Lexus, and then when we die, they have to pay it back. This
00:52:06
is this is just stupid and immoral. this tax bill the largest uh according to
00:52:12
several studies it will be the largest transfer of wealth from poor to rich which is Latin from young to old because
00:52:19
everyone calls me an agist and like okay folks who do you think the rich are what is the average age of shareholders who
00:52:24
own more than two or three million in shares right now they're usually in their 60s or 70s but this will be the
00:52:30
largest transfer of wealth I uploaded my taxes into the LLMs my W1's and said how
00:52:37
will the Trump tax impact me and I uploaded it to three LLMs and one of them of the LLM came back with the first
00:52:43
two words were good news. Good news. So the top 5% are getting a tax cut. The
00:52:49
bottom 95 are getting a tax increase all at the expense of future generations.
00:52:55
Yep. 100%. Very good, Scott. Nice. Well done. I like those. Anyway, we want to
00:53:01
hear from you. I'm trying to scale my business. You're trying to scale my business. Scale it to further heights. Maybe if you got on that climbing wall
00:53:07
every now and then. I thought there was gonna be a picture of you in my bathtub using my salts. Oh, that could be interesting. Putting on my deodorant. I
00:53:15
like what's next. I have to say your your your hitting my kids likes me better. I think I think they like me
00:53:21
better. Yeah, cuz we bring liveless to it. We fun. We're fun. Who likes you better? Your concierge. They like me
00:53:27
better. The door people. The doormen. Yeah. Easy. I give them like they like
00:53:33
you. Anyway, we want to hear from you. Send us your questions about your business, tech, or whatever's on your mind. Go to
00:53:39
nymag.com/pivot to submit a question for the show or call 8551 pivot. Elsewhere
00:53:44
in the Cara and Scott universe, this week on on with Cara Swisser, I talked to Barry Diller about his new memoir.
00:53:50
Let's listen to a clip. People haven't read this book. The people who are who
00:53:55
read the excerpt of it, but nobody's read the damn thing. And the amazing
00:54:01
thing is the only thing that has been written is my relationship with a woman,
00:54:06
right? From which somehow they extract he's come out of the closet, right? And
00:54:12
to me, I think if I've come out of the closet, it is the most brightly lit room with a glass door. I mean, who who
00:54:20
who it's absurd. Did you enjoy your interview? I know you're a big fan. I love him. He's very
00:54:26
funny. He's one of the most um forthright of the moguls and he is who he is. Like every people have a lot of
00:54:32
complaints about Barry Diller, but I got to tell you he's absolutely like I am the mo least interested in the gay part. Like I knew it, everyone knew it kind of
00:54:39
thing. But I thought this book is fantastic. It's a it's a really gripping story about uh about his family which
00:54:46
was very there's a lot of incredible dysfunction there but also his ideas around business and creating media and I
00:54:52
think he's been one of the one of the entrepreneurial members of that class of the old mogul class and so I enjoyed it.
00:54:59
He's just a gas. He's really a gas. Um anyway uh that's the show. Uh thanks for
00:55:04
listening to Pivot. Be sure to like and subscribe to our YouTube channel. We'll be back on Friday. Scott, read us out.
00:55:11
Today's show is produced by Larara Neman, Zoe Marcus, Taylor Griffin, and Kevin Oliver. Ernie and her Todd engineered this episode. Thanks also to
00:55:18
Jubos, Miss Vero, and Dan Shalon. Michox Media's executive producer podcast. Make
00:55:23
sure to follow Pivot on your favorite podcast platform. Thanks for listening to Pivot from New York Magazine and Vox
00:55:28
Media. You can subscribe to the magazine at nymag.com/pod. We'll be back later this week for another breakdown of all things
00:55:35
tech and business. You know, we'll be back. Why? Cuz someone's scaling her empire.
00:55:40
Scott, can I just say something very briefly? Sure. I'm so glad to be doing more years with you. I love our show. I
00:55:46
love our team. And I mostly love you, Scott. I appreciate you saying that. I reciprocate all of that those good
00:55:52
emotions. Cara, thank you.
