00:00:00
Why should we be worried about the most powerful people in the world that have an unbelievable command of god-like
00:00:07
technology who basically own the vice president who are becoming increasingly
00:00:12
theocratic? I mean, no worries there. No worries there.
00:00:24
Hi everyone, this is Pivot from New York Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast Network. I'm Cara Swisser. And I'm Scott Galloway.
00:00:30
Guess where I am. I like this game. Where are you? Las Vegas. Your favorite place. Vegas.
00:00:36
What are you doing in Vegas? Oh, I'm giving a speech a place you gave a speech at. I can't remember this. Stanbury. Anyway, uh I'm here to talk
00:00:44
about AI, of course, because that's the topic dour of many of these events and stuff like that.
00:00:50
So, uh nice. And I didn't do anything in Vegas last night. I went to sleep and I watched the
00:00:56
diplomat before that. That's what I did. Oh, really? Entire evening. Yes.
00:01:01
I love that. Yes. Is it Does it How does it feel? Mhm. To what? Well, I mean, how does the mood People
00:01:07
say Vegas is dying because people now have Vegas in their pocket with their phones and people have less money?
00:01:13
You know, it was full. You know, I was I met um I ate at the at the um it's not
00:01:19
the wind. It's I guess it's the wind. The one with all the trees that hang down. You know Vegas better than I do.
00:01:25
But I'm staying uh at the Encore, that whole facility. And um it's it's was
00:01:31
packed. I was surprised. It was very jolly. Um although it wasn't I wouldn't say the casino was packed, that's for
00:01:37
sure. Um but it was it wasn't like unfulfill I guess. I don't know. Is this
00:01:42
the time of year for it to be full? Um I think Vegas is pretty much a year
00:01:48
round place. I don't conventions and everything and Right. Um, I used to
00:01:53
I've only been here Oh, sorry. Go ahead. I I've only been here at like CES, so it's always full. It's not like that,
00:01:59
like by any means like that whatsoever. So, I used to go there, my friendly Lotus
00:02:05
and I would get ridiculously [ __ ] high and decide at 2 a.m. that it was a good idea to go to
00:02:10
Vegas and we'd jump in his Volkswagen Jetta. Yeah. And head for five hours to
00:02:17
cross the desert. To Vegas. Across the desert. And we'd stay at the the Golden Nugget where they
00:02:22
because they had this buffet for $9.99 you could basically eat for a good, you know, enough for a day or two.
00:02:29
Yeah. And we would always put $5 in the glove box so we had enough gas to get home cuz
00:02:35
we knew we'd lose all our money. Oh, and did you? Oh, yeah. That's part of the fun. Anyway, I'm in Vegas. I'm leaving. I'm
00:02:40
going to Korea this week. So, Korea? I'm going to Korea. I'm going to Korea. She's She had to stop us. Why are you
00:02:46
going to Korea? Uh, it's for the secret show. For the secret show. Oh god. It's the last episode.
00:02:52
Oh, that's Korea's where I know I know a bunch of women who take
00:02:58
trips to Korea to look not look Korean but to look younger. I guess Korea. They're obsessed with beauty and they're very good at it.
00:03:03
Yeah. Yeah, they are. So, we're going to do a little bit. There's they're they're also have the one of the most aging populations and they're the the the
00:03:10
country that's doing the most about it. Like I'm going to be in an ecto ectokeleton or whatever. Um, but they
00:03:16
they're planning a lot for their aging population in a really interesting way. So, so they're bringing you over to inspire
00:03:23
young people to start having sex. I I I missed the gap there. I missed the connection. Um, anyway, I'm going to put some shrimp
00:03:29
seams uh lotion on my face. That's what I'm doing. And I'm going to bring some back for you. You know, there's there's a component of
00:03:36
that that is appealing, but it's not Yeah. Yeah. I'm not even going to go there. I
00:03:41
feel like you're giving me so many softballs here. I'm giving them to you. throwing them up and you're not taking shrimp semen. You
00:03:47
could do nothing with shrimp semen. That is not the facial I I imagine nor want to see.
00:03:53
Oh my. Okay. Scallop semen. I don't know. They're going to have like all kind. There's always the word semen in
00:03:59
their in their in their facials or something. my swimmers. Well, supposedly
00:04:04
only one in 20, is it one in 20 or one in 200? Some scary low number of Koreans is going to have a grandkid because of
00:04:11
basically as women as women get more economically viable and quite frankly get smarter, more educated, they decide
00:04:17
this whole kid thing kind of sucks for me. Oh. And they stop having children. And essentially that book in the 70s
00:04:24
that said that the world was going to over collapse on itself and that there was going to be a a population bomb. Well,
00:04:30
the bomb exploded. Except it didn't explode. It imploded. And we're having trouble figuring out how western nations and democracies
00:04:37
maintain population growth. And the percentage of young people to old people is just shrinking every year. And which is why hence car is going to Korea
00:04:45
to talk. Yeah. And old people have this habit of voting themselves more money. And before you know it, young people are 24% less
00:04:51
wealthy than they were 40 years ago as they are in the US. And old people are 72% wealthier. And our society is is
00:04:59
kind of turning upside down and young people have no hope. Okay, Elon, got it. No, I'm kidding. I'm kidding. No, I'm going to talk about
00:05:05
this topic. This is the topic. This is the topic. Anyway, I last time I was there, I was with Walt when we were
00:05:11
deciding where to have our Asia conference. Um, and uh, Korea we considered Soul for a minute. I really
00:05:17
do like Soul, though. I don't know if how many times you've been there, but I really like it a lot. It's a cool city.
00:05:23
Yeah. I I haven't been there in I haven't been there since business school. I'm kind of curious to go back and check it out. I'm going to get on a bullet train and
00:05:30
you know, things like that. Before or after you got a facial and all of it,
00:05:36
this is this is literally like this is like a a 12step method to get me
00:05:42
to stop watching you porn is I type in facial and I see you in Korea.
00:05:47
It's literally, okay, that's it. No more porn. I'm done. I'm cured anyway. I'm cured. I'm one of those people that
00:05:53
doesn't drink and doesn't watch porn. Just the endless taping of TV. Anyway, we've got a lot to get to today,
00:05:59
including anthropic and David Sachs fighting over AI regulation and colleges pushing back against Trump, which is
00:06:04
really interesting. I can't wait to hear your take. But first, almost 7 million people gathered to take part in No
00:06:09
King's protest this weekend around the country. Over 2700 events took place in 50 states. The protests were peaceful
00:06:16
with no arrests, no arrests being made in cities like DC and New York, which drew obviously the biggest crowds. Some
00:06:22
sign highlights. Real clowns would uh run things better. I like ters, not dictators. Tylenol is safe from the
00:06:28
tyranny. You sucked in Home Alone, too. Mike Johnson blocked me on Grinder. And
00:06:34
of course, Groper Cleveland. Um GOP lawmakers are calling the movement a hate America rally. Still, I think they
00:06:41
won't stop and claiming it's a political cover for a shutdown. It looked pretty jolly to me. Um, of course, as usual,
00:06:48
President Trump tried to suck up the oxygen in the room by posting an AI generated video depicting him dropping
00:06:54
feces. Well, it was just a poop, a big giant diarrhea from a fighter jet onto
00:06:59
protesters. Uh, a lot of them, a lot of the mainstream wouldn't say that that's
00:07:04
what it was. I mean, I think it was just a distraction cuz he didn't get any attention. Uh turnout was impressive. I
00:07:11
don't know if it does much, but it was really quite amazing. It was like that's a lot of people. Um and again, it was
00:07:17
peaceful and seemed lovely and uh a good organizing thing I suspect. Um any
00:07:23
thoughts? I think it's really important. I think that, you know, I always go back to World War
00:07:29
II and that is what was so disappointing about World War II initially was that so
00:07:34
many people seem to enable it or look the other way and then the push back uh
00:07:40
by Americans. Obviously, Europe had an existential threat that this guy was invading them.
00:07:46
But America did have real controversy over whether to reenter Europe for the
00:07:51
second time after they'd paid such a terrible cost in the First World War. And a lot of people didn't didn't really understand why that was our war and
00:07:56
we're about to do it again. And ultimately their decision to move into the war was, you know, kind of a vision
00:08:02
of FDR that like this this will hit our shores eventually. And they weren't as much pushing back on anti-semitism.
00:08:09
Really, they weren't pushing back on anti-semitism. They were pushing back on fascism. And
00:08:15
this is in my view, America has become very fat and happy and lazy and has
00:08:21
taken its prosperity, its alliances and its freedoms for granted because the majority of us have been raised in an
00:08:27
era where those things continue to get better. And so the natural assumption is it couldn't happen here and it'll it'll
00:08:33
keep getting better. And I think for the first time Americans are thinking or first time in a while are thinking,
00:08:38
okay, maybe that isn't a guaranteed right. And the the best the best summary of it to encapsulate I think well at
00:08:45
least how I feel about it is uh the following. The no king's protest isn't about hating
00:08:52
America but about loving it enough to defend it. For generations, Americans have stood up when power grew too big,
00:08:58
when truth got twisted, or when leaders forgot they served the people. This is one of those moments that defines who we
00:09:04
are as Americans. we will stand together peacefully not to divide the country but to remind it who we are and that's from
00:09:11
this great philosopher Eric Theodore Kartman from South Park. So, but he said I thought it just kind
00:09:18
of perfectly encapsulated the moment. Yeah. So, to be clear, I'm not sure if that was AI. Uh I did some research and some
00:09:25
people have attributed that quote to Heather Shrieve Buer, but regardless, it's a wonderful it's a wonderful quote.
00:09:31
Yeah. And this is this stuff is important. And people say, well, I agree that, you know, these protests
00:09:38
are better when there's a specific action required. But I think that when you saw those videos yesterday
00:09:43
in your feed on social, you realize Americans are upset. Americans are prone
00:09:48
to action. Americans will take the time to give up their Saturday and put together a sign. the Americans on this
00:09:55
side, it always comes across as a little hippie- dippy and a little bit like Mother Jones and Cynthia Nixon and with
00:10:02
Kombucha, you know, which I don't, you know, they come across did, but I don't think this one did, but go ahead.
00:10:07
No, I this one with less of that. It felt as positive, very solid. There was some videos that really
00:10:13
bothered me. The video flying around the internet that really upset me was of that idiot who gets tripped and hurts
00:10:19
his face. And a lot of progressives are celebrating it and calling it karma. I don't think that's good for us or the
00:10:24
nation. No, I saw a lot of people in inflatable animal costumes, which that's hilarious. But that's going on
00:10:30
all over the cities. I like those memes, you know. Uh lots of my friends who went, they said it
00:10:35
started I didn't I had the kids yesterday. Um was um the or the the day
00:10:41
the day of the march. Um, it was really interesting because it it several people
00:10:46
said it started off kind of lefty, but then as the day grew, it was sort of all
00:10:52
kinds of people and much more sort of people like moms and daughters and fathers and sons and stuff like that.
00:10:58
And they said it seemed um it was seemed like very like diff lots of different people they were struck by. They go to,
00:11:05
you know, more than one or two protests every now and then or around marches. And so I thought I thought the photos
00:11:11
were amazing and again they did a lot of really good stuff on social around the contrast between Trump's military parade
00:11:18
if you recall that kind of loser of a parade. Um and that and it seemed not it
00:11:23
didn't seem festive is the wrong word. It seemed it didn't seem it seemed positive. Yes, that's right. Yeah. And I
00:11:30
thought it was like it's great for I bet they collect lots of names, you know, it sort of gets people energized for the
00:11:36
fight. And then of course Trump had to do a stupid thing and I think Honestly,
00:11:41
just so weird. It was so weird to do that and thinking it's funny when you're, you know, a 79year-old man. Um,
00:11:48
and I'm sure part of me feels like the fact that he did a pooping thing, right?
00:11:54
An elderly man to do a poop thing either it's sort of self harming himself by
00:11:59
posting it or else whoever is working for him is doing some brutal trolling of him. I just thought it was such a weird
00:12:06
selection. It's just more the same. It's just a total lack of respect for Americans if they don't agree with you and
00:12:12
I don't know trying to and again it's effective because we're talking about it and and it enters the news cycle.
00:12:18
Well, actually it enters the news cycle but like all his little minions did one too of him not leaving office or him as
00:12:23
a king and I keep thinking these people are like you know 60 52 79 like this is
00:12:30
like you act like a like a badly behaved seventh grader who nobody likes. I don't wor like that,
00:12:36
I guess. I don't know if people like the poop thing. I don't think anybody like I mean maybe if you're 12, I guess, but we'll I doubt they did. Um uh anyway, it
00:12:44
was it was a very impressive and and the media should have covered it more because I thought it was really lovely.
00:12:50
Um now, as of this recording, six colleges have rebuffed the Trump administration's so-called compact for
00:12:55
academic excellence and higher education ahead of the White House deadline. The agreement offers special access to
00:13:00
federal funding in exchange for schools agreeing to a set of demands including race and sexes factors eliminating race
00:13:07
and sexist factors in admissions and capping international enrollment. MIT, Brown, P, Penn, USC, UVA, and Dartmouth
00:13:14
have all said no, arguing the deal would undermine free speech and academic independence. The White House initially approached nine universities and is now
00:13:21
reaching out to more schools after a wave of rejections. Uh, really interesting, I think. Um, really
00:13:27
interesting that they're they're doing this. I don't know as much about it. What how did you feel about this as a as
00:13:32
as someone who's you like some of it, but I think overall the government is getting it dirty myths and things that
00:13:39
is none of their business. Yeah. Some of it I mean some of it sort of come it's not even what's in there.
00:13:44
It's it's that's not important. What's important is whether or not the federal government should be threatening to withdraw funds
00:13:51
unless they sign up to a series of standards, some of which include what sort of distills down to thought control
00:13:58
or who you hire. And I think the majority of it could be or a lot of it could be perceived freeze tuition,
00:14:05
although that's basically a price control. That's socialism. But who you hire and who you let in, that's sort of
00:14:11
I don't know. I I I have some issues with that. reducing the number of international
00:14:17
students. I mean, just to riff on that for a moment, we keep talking about bringing American jobs back. And there
00:14:26
is there are few for every 1% decrease in international enrollment, we lose a
00:14:33
billion dollars. And that is imagine just to highlight how stupid [ __ ]
00:14:39
stupid these tariffs are. International trade wildly is asymmetrically beneficial towards us. We sell a Nvidia
00:14:46
GPU hopper at $100,000. It's $55,000 of operating profit times a PE of 40, we
00:14:54
get $2 trillion in market value. Mercedes sells in $100,000 Mercedes at 10% of operating margin trading in a
00:15:00
multiple of eight, they get $80,000 in shareholder value. And another great example of how asymmetric and beneficial
00:15:07
to us our international trade is, there will be a small number of students, although it will triple our quintuple
00:15:12
this year of American kids who decide to go to Instituta and Madrid and they will
00:15:18
spend money. They will spend their American dollars and their parents American dollars in Spain, which will grow the Spanish economy.
00:15:24
We get we we get hundreds of thousands if not millions of kids and families who
00:15:29
come here and at NYU they're spending about $280,000 in tuition over four years. They're renting three5 $7,000
00:15:37
apartments. They're buying Chipotle every goddamn day. And then there's the soft power of they like Americans and
00:15:42
they stay in contact with them when they go back to run the economic ministry of El Salvador or wherever. It's just that
00:15:49
it is so much high margin revenue for us and to discourage foreign students by
00:15:54
putting a cap on the number that can come here. They're looking at it the wrong way. And that is the University of North Carolina says, "Okay, we're going
00:16:01
to give you $650 million, but you have to let in 82%." Now, what they should do is just expand the topline number with
00:16:08
their endowment and let in more kids. But anyways, I don't mind that. what they need to do is the following in my
00:16:13
view and I had dinner on Thursday night with the chancellor of UCLA Julio Frank uh who's a really impressive guy and I
00:16:20
won't speak to the specifics of the conversation but my view is the first thing they need to do is coordinate in that is they need to hold their hold
00:16:28
their tongues and elect a couple presidents of these universities to represent them all and then stand around
00:16:35
the fire hold hands and say whatever this group decides we are going along with because how they lose is to be
00:16:41
divided be pulled off one by one. Yeah, that's exactly right. UCLA says, "We'll take the money." And SC says, "No,
00:16:47
that's an authoritarian's playbook. You go along with me, I'll make you super rich. You don't go along with me, I'll
00:16:53
illegally punish you." The first thing is coordination. The second thing is litigation because a lot of this is just
00:17:00
wrong. A lot of this is so you they're they're trying to interpret visa rules arbitrarily and
00:17:07
there's a president there's a precedence against that a legal decision the 2022 DACA recision they there's
00:17:13
constitutional protections here the first amendment against compelled speech or ideological litmus test for faculty
00:17:18
or curricula that's a violation of the first amendment the 10th amendment spending clause if federal funds are
00:17:24
conditioned on political compliance they could file in sympathetic jurisdictions they also need to weaponize and They
00:17:30
haven't done this their alumni to make financial commitments such that they have the financial wherewithal at least in the short term,
00:17:36
right? Harvard is actually up in donations recently. Well, also the the schools that have immediately pushed back, it's no
00:17:41
accident. They're the ones with the largest per capita or per student endowments because they can afford to push back. And then state level
00:17:48
counterweights, they could have legislative shields, attorney general lawsuits, parallel funding, and some
00:17:53
they need to use the courts coordination uh inspiration around fundraising and litigation to delay this [ __ ] But
00:17:59
they all need to speak with one with one voice. Otherwise, it seems like I don't know who the
00:18:05
others the nine are, but that's that's one, two, three, four, five, five of them. All of them should be part of
00:18:11
this. They should be speaking with one voice. It's sort of like the the Pentagon thing last week. Just stop it. Like,
00:18:16
and also also I think they should go gangster. We have universities are a corrupt cartel. They
00:18:23
have this enforcer of the corruption, which is the accreditation. there's a board made up of the incumbents that
00:18:28
accredits universities and you need accreditation otherwise you don't qualify for federal student uh loans and
00:18:37
it's just insane they don't allow new universities they don't accredit new ones so what do you know uh universities
00:18:43
have not grown there are not they are not adding additional universities students are actually there's a bit of a
00:18:48
birth there's a chill over international students they think international applications from international students
00:18:54
are going to go are going to go down 20 to 40% And for every student that comes here to
00:18:59
a private university, that's literally probably like, let's think about it, that's probably
00:19:04
$400 or $500,000. Say the average family spends 15,000 when they come to America. It's like 20 or 30 families not coming
00:19:11
here to go to Disneyland and Universal Studios and see the Grand Canyon. It's just really [ __ ] stupid. Yeah,
00:19:16
it's a huge. And in addition, our PhD students, and I've gone on about this forever, we attract the best and
00:19:21
brightest to make our weapons, our chemotherapy, our pharmaceuticals, our internet applications would spill over
00:19:28
into huge job growth. So, this is just I mean, in addition to the economic end of it, okay, go ahead. I'm going to stop you in
00:19:34
a second, but go ahead. Go ahead. Well, this is the bottom line. the accreditation institution should be an
00:19:39
enforcer here and say we're speaking with one voice [ __ ] and if you decide to go make a side deal with your buddies
00:19:46
in the administration, yeah, maybe you're even legally compliant, but we're going to make it hard for you to get accredited next year. Universities need
00:19:52
to get go a little bit gangster here and speak with one voice. Otherwise, they will be picked off one at a time.
00:19:58
Will they do that? No, because they're all they're all administrators and they lack the type of
00:20:05
leadership. Okay. I I don't want Well, a leader needs to emerge. A leader
00:20:12
needs to emerge. Like there's some very innovative people that I don't know who the new president of UVA is. I really
00:20:19
think the president of Harvard has done a decent job. Mhm. There needs to be there needs to be a
00:20:25
leader who steps up and says calls all of them and says we either fall together or stand together. And you may have your
00:20:32
own views on which parts of this you like or don't like. And there's a very solid argument for for saying I
00:20:38
represent I represent USC so I'm going to have a dialogue. And this is what happens. The first university that
00:20:44
cracks and agrees, right, will get more, won't have to give up that much. And then they're going to
00:20:50
come back for even more to number two. Yeah. So they absolutely need to stand together. Right. Right. Right. I made a mistake.
00:20:56
It's six schools out of nine, but I agree. It is it's kind of ridiculous. And they keep winning legally. So it
00:21:02
seems like, you know, I I think the proclivity of a lot of these places and then we're going to move on is let's
00:21:07
just talk like let's not fight. Let's talk. Let's dialogue. Let's dialogue. That's what we do. That's what we do.
00:21:12
Typical. And so that's where they're getting. And I thought again with the with the reporters the Pentagon did. I don't know what the result of that.
00:21:18
we're just not going to we're not going to agree and then the people that agree are a mly cruel and shitty whatever not
00:21:24
even journalists at the Pentagon and they look ridiculous and I think in thisa in this case if they stand
00:21:29
together as you the Trump people typically fold that's always seems to be their thing is they push and push and
00:21:35
then and then they it's taco it's essentially taco Tuesdays um uh okay
00:21:41
Scott let's go on a quick break when we come back this is an interesting story anthropic becomes a white house target
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00:22:17
Scott, we're back. The latest feud over AI regulation is between Anthropic and the White House, specifically Trump's
00:22:22
AISAR, David Saxs. Sax is accusing Anthropic co-founder Jack Clark, of running a quote, "Sophisticated
00:22:27
regulatory capture strategy based on fear-mongering." Oh, did you look up all those words, David? This was in response
00:22:33
to an essay Clark wrote about balancing optimism and caution around AI. Sax is
00:22:38
also claiming Anthropics has positioned itself as a foe of the Trump administration. And while uh CEO Daro uh
00:22:45
Daario Amodi who backed Kla Harris isn't bending the knee like other tech CEOs, Anthropic still has a number of
00:22:51
government contracts and partnerships um really weird a weird attack I thought
00:22:56
and and specifically calling one as someone who's supposed to be this aisar and supposed to be uh pushing all the
00:23:02
companies and everything and of course those that have showed up for Trump and given him money and done all these
00:23:08
things get all the juicy bits. It's sort of an insider game here with Sachs at the center of it. And I'm sure he's
00:23:13
quite effective at getting what he wants around cyber and I mean crypto and and
00:23:20
this but to attack one company for just making normal. They want to build a
00:23:26
brand around safety to do that. It seems bizarre to me. I guess he just he wants
00:23:32
everybody to to go along with the uh with the casino that's speaking Las Vegas and the that the house is always
00:23:39
in charge. But I don't know any thoughts on this. You said something that that always
00:23:44
struck me and that every accusation is an admission. Is that what you said? Confession. Yeah. Is it confession?
00:23:50
He wrote anthropic is running a sophisticated regulatory capture strategy based on fearongering.
00:23:56
Uh no, we have never seen regulatory capture like big tech uh showing up to the White
00:24:03
House. And the tariffs are effectively a transfer from the 490 that have to figure out this sclerotic strategy to
00:24:09
the 10 the magnificent 10 that really aren't affected by um AI. I'm sorry.
00:24:15
They really aren't affected by tariffs. And for him to say that because Anthropic has said I'm not going to bend
00:24:20
a knee on everything here is sort of and also let's be clear, he didn't write this. is the White House wrote this. The
00:24:27
White House, he's not going to do anything without the White House's approval. And so, for some reason,
00:24:33
Anthropic has gotten cross-eyed with the Trump administration. And you sort of
00:24:38
he's sort of threatening him and threatening them. In addition, this just at a very baseline level, we forget the
00:24:44
administration is not supposed to speak to, punish, or reward individual
00:24:49
companies. Correct. That was what was so strange about it. They're supposed to pass laws that affect everybody or don't affect
00:24:56
everybody. Or they take all AI companies on a tour of Asia with the Secretary of
00:25:01
Commerce to try and build business. Or they say, "Here's an idea. Every AI
00:25:06
company cannot have any technology that lets people under the age of 18 engage
00:25:12
in synthetic relationships." You don't decide, okay, I don't have an investment. Me and my venture firm and
00:25:19
my buddies don't have an investment in anthropic. So I'm going to go after them individually. This is and if you look at
00:25:26
at a at a more broader level, if you look at jobs, what's happening with jobs, who's getting really hurt are
00:25:31
small businesses. And small and medium-sized businesses are responsible for 2/3 of job growth in America. Why? Cuz small
00:25:39
and medium-sized businesses have no seat at the table. They don't get to go to the White House and cut sweetheart deals
00:25:46
and get big deals and big contracts. Who cuts? Like that's the whole thing. Like I was thinking about all these businesses that don't get to go to Mara
00:25:53
Lago patio as I said and one of the things around this essay is read the essay that Jack wrote, Jack Clark wrote.
00:26:00
Um it is essentially like I'm really excited about AI but there are some things we should worry about like
00:26:06
literally he's not a foe of the Trump administration. He's just making a
00:26:11
normal thing that everyone and by the way there is a growing worry about all this like among normal people of which
00:26:18
Zach never never sets his foot near and I think if you're if you're a parent if you're if you're a business everybody is
00:26:25
and and and the stock market feels very frothy based on the spend everyone understands what's happening here from a
00:26:31
stock market point of view and all he was saying was we should have be cautious like just cuz he wants to like
00:26:38
have a little bit of regulation and put put it in the hands of our elected officials, which would be Congress, to
00:26:44
be passing some of this stuff. I think it's just I was sort of really struck by the how how corrupt the situation has
00:26:51
become. Um, and of course, it puts anthropic is going to have to do government contracts. It's going to have
00:26:57
to do, you know, just like this is where all the big money is for these things to grow into actual businesses. And so,
00:27:03
it's really the picking and choosing again socialism. And then the weirdest thing this week was this these stories
00:27:10
of Peter Thiel's uh has some thoughts on a a regular he's warning it could summon the antichrist if we stop it.
00:27:17
Like he's giving these speeches that are seem like we must do this or the ant so
00:27:23
I'm not clear who the antichrist is. I guess it's people who oppose the
00:27:28
complete takeover of the government by tech billionaires. Like I it was so I
00:27:34
don't even understand. He's gotten increasingly religious and good for him if he finds comfort in religion. Peter Teal has gotten religious.
00:27:40
Oh yeah. Yeah. Very much so. There's a whole gang of them that are very like it's a I think it's a brand of
00:27:47
Catholicism. It's one of it's it's a branch of it. And and and so
00:27:53
just the antichrist. Are you are you kidding me? Like it's just the strange. So now it's becoming in terms of like a
00:28:00
real existential fight for the future of humanity is how they're selling it. And I think believing it actually. I don't
00:28:07
think this is a faint I don't I think it's an actual belief system. It's all
00:28:13
very strange. It's you do I use both I try to cross
00:28:18
reference and use them to check each other. I use chat GPT and I use uh
00:28:24
Claude to just see and I like cloud better. I use cloud more because I find it's better with the written word and
00:28:30
but chat GBT I find has more comprehensive data. What I have also noticed is that
00:28:36
and sometimes it bothers me quite frankly is cloud is more politically correct. If I'm doing research on the shooters
00:28:42
of um or the perpetrators of political violence sometimes if you phrase the question wrong it comes back and says I
00:28:48
can't provide information on attempted murders or whatever. And then you know and then last night I got very upset. It
00:28:54
wouldn't give me any information on I wanted to see images of lesbian tech journalists getting facials in Korea and
00:29:02
it just wouldn't go there. Oh, you just got that. You just got that. That just registered. Anyways, it
00:29:08
is more politically correct. And so my sense is that at Anthropic they're
00:29:15
they're sort of trying to be the good guys and this guy just sort of steps out of line and doesn't line up for the you
00:29:22
know doesn't line up to be part of the mafia that that that that David Sax is
00:29:28
clearly a soldier of the dawn in Washington and the Gree is sign up and you're going to make a [ __ ] ton of money
00:29:34
at the expense of the lower 490 and it seems like the head of anthropic good for him is not signed up and says,
00:29:40
"Well, actually, I have some views and I have some concerns." Because the, you
00:29:46
know, I think the collision personally between synthetic relationships
00:29:52
and AI is just so [ __ ] frightening. I I just think it's and they're not
00:29:58
talking about it. I think it's going to make it seem like phones and social media were just an Easter parade when
00:30:04
when all of a sudden we notice that everybody or a third of the people in our life have disappeared and are long
00:30:10
coming coming down for dinner, no longer talking to us because they have decided that their synthetic relationship knows
00:30:17
everything and knows them and it can run their lives and it anyways
00:30:24
this is this is what teal is much more profound. Let me read a quote because um one of the things is he the hostility
00:30:31
towards technology is his focus and he he let me just read this quote cuz um
00:30:38
according to some Christian traditions the antichrist is a figure who that will unify humanity under one rule but this is from Wired before delivering us to
00:30:44
the apocalypse. For Teal its evil is pretty much synonymous with any attempt to unite the world. How might such an
00:30:51
antichrist rise to power? Teal ass by playing it on our fears of technology and seducing us into decadence with the
00:30:58
antichrist slogan peace and safety. In other words, it would yoke together a terrified species by promising to rescue
00:31:04
it from the apocalypse apocalypse. And he's like blaming like Nick Bostonramm who's an AI doomer, you know, who I'm
00:31:12
not a fan of this Boston either, but like he's this is like um so strange. to
00:31:18
defend it off. Um, we have to stop people like this, I
00:31:23
guess, like like anthropic, like any AI doomer. And if there's any, it's just
00:31:29
it's so strange that and disturbing that this guy is at the center of power and is influencing all these people. And of
00:31:36
course, South Park made fun of him. Peter Teal knows the anti is worried about the antichrist, which was a very
00:31:42
funny episode. Well, I had some experience with this. I'm not no joke. Mhm. I had a dream and the and the devil
00:31:49
showed up in my dreams and whispered, "I'm coming for you." And so I whispered back I whispered
00:31:55
back, "That's gay." Why should we be worried about the most
00:32:02
powerful people in the world that have an unbelievable command of god-like technology, Yeah.
00:32:07
who basically own the vice president. Yeah. Who are becoming increasingly theoccratic. I mean, no worries there.
00:32:15
No worries there. Well, I recommend South Park's Peter Teal and the Antichrist. It's really
00:32:21
funny. It was really, really funny. Anyway, it's worrisome and and and I
00:32:26
whatever. Nobody's I just didn't want to. That's enough. Anyway, this is
00:32:31
Odd Duck. Odd Duck. I'd like to go to a strip club with him. Have you ever partied with him? No. No. I've been to a party at his
00:32:37
house. Yes. I had an argument with him at it and it was a long time ago over something. I can't even remember. It was
00:32:43
many moons ago, many iterations of Peter Teal ago. Uh I'm exactly the same. Um uh
00:32:50
this is an interesting story. GLP uh one drug stocks fell late last after Donald Trump said in an Oval Office presser
00:32:56
that the price of Ozreer, as he called it, the fat loss drug would soon drop to $150 a month. Dr. Mett Oz, who's now
00:33:02
running Medicare and Medicaid, quickly jumped in to clarify that's not a done deal yet. The clarification didn't do
00:33:07
much to com investors. Novo Nordisk and Eli Liy both lost billions in market value. The price of OMIC is currently
00:33:14
around $1,000 a month. Talking about the implications, the price really goes down to 150. I'm of two minds. I think it
00:33:19
should be 150 like right like it should be really inexpensive for people who especially people are overweight to
00:33:26
figure out a way because again with the secret thing actually every doctor I talked to talks about the importance of
00:33:31
these drugs on the general population. Probably it's the antichrist. Um because
00:33:36
it will unify us in health. Um but uh but what do you think of this? You were one of the first people to talk about
00:33:42
the implications of GLP1 drugs, but the prices remain stubbornly high for and
00:33:48
out of reach of most Americans on a monthly basis. Look, I every year when I do my
00:33:54
predictions deck, which I'm about to do in a month for the follow for the next year, I predict a technology of the
00:33:59
year. And in 22 and 23, I said it was AI. First time I've done backtoback on a
00:34:06
technology. And in 24 I said the technology that's going to have more impact on a ground level than AI in 24
00:34:11
is GLP-1 drugs. I think these things are nothing short of revolutionary. I mean the the fact that
00:34:19
if you think about when we came off the Savannah our you know we didn't have access to trans fats. We didn't have
00:34:25
access to mating opportunities free play. So we become addicted to food to porn to gambling because our instincts
00:34:32
have just not caught up to institutional production. And these things are literally scaffolding on our instincts.
00:34:37
And when you go into the grocery store, you not only buy less food, you buy more lettuce and kale and yogurt, and you buy
00:34:43
less cookies and soda. It's just, how does it know how to turn off the parts
00:34:49
of your brain that says, "I need to eat chocolate covered almonds late night after my 5 milligram edible," which I
00:34:55
did last night. Yeah, I had milk duds, but go ahead. I love milk. Oo, those are really bad for you. Um, anyways, the Yeah, you're not going to
00:35:02
find those in Korea when you're getting your facial. I know. That's why I had them here last I found them in Las Vegas, but go ahead. There you go. So, oh, in the mini bar.
00:35:09
No. Oh, god. That's my favorite thing with my son is we bond. We go back to the hotel and we raid the mini bar.
00:35:16
Uh, anyways, the what was dis what was disappointing about GLP1, at least initially in the
00:35:22
United States, was the region that had the greatest penetration of GLP1 was also ironically the richest
00:35:28
the thinnest thinnest. Yeah. And thinnest and richest go one and together. It was it was ladies of lunch on the upper east side lo trying to lose
00:35:35
that last 10. That is not who needs GLP1. I believe a decent government
00:35:41
program would be for Medicare to repeal the legislation that says Medicare cannot negotiate on drugs. We spend two
00:35:48
to four times more on Ompic than they do in other nations. Despite the fact that Nova Nordis produced uh uh which is a
00:35:55
European company, we have American produced GLP-1 drugs. I would love to
00:36:00
see just um the federal government do what it's supposed to do and that is help prevent a tragedy of the commons
00:36:06
and use their purchasing power to take these drugs down to 50 bucks a month
00:36:11
because then it becomes a creative. You will save more than that on food. And the one thing Americans share, it's not
00:36:18
military service, it's not their ethnicity, it's not their religion. The
00:36:23
one thing we share as Americans is that 70% of us are overweight or obese. Yeah.
00:36:28
And if you wanted to figure out a way to save a 100 billion, 200 billion, a half a trillion dollars a year, you would get
00:36:36
America down to Japanese-like levels of obesity where only 4% of uh the Japanese are obese. I think
00:36:43
it's it's actually more than that because I have to say in doing all the this this series I'm doing all everyone's like
00:36:50
ultimately it's food, exercise, being rich and and sleep and stuff like that
00:36:56
ultimately for longevity but every expert I talk to is like these drugs are
00:37:02
miraculous in terms of getting us to the place we need besides the really cool stuff that's happening with cancer and
00:37:07
AI and you know crisper. This is this is the thing that every single and not just
00:37:14
that but uh around uh issues around stroke around um and taking it in a
00:37:21
small amount like some of my doctors like you need to take a little bit micro I know a ton of people micro that aren't
00:37:26
that aren't fat the micro dop I I had one of those it's more addiction right and drinking
00:37:32
and um and cognitive stuff all this stuff that is like around it and of
00:37:38
course it does worry some people that that it could like make a make a left turn like fenfen or whatever. But most
00:37:46
every doctor I talk to is very much like not worried about this drug. It's a
00:37:52
really interesting it's a really interesting development. A about two years ago, I got invited to a dinner to
00:37:58
speak at a dinner and it was neuroscientists and I thought, "Wow, I I would like to be in there with a bunch
00:38:04
of neuroscientists in case I ever get sick or it's just not a bad idea to have relationships with really good doctors."
00:38:10
And so, it was it was a dinner. There was about 16 neuroscientists and me there and the head of this hospital uh
00:38:17
and I think probably a couple people who like funded the gold circle of you know whatever it was Langon but and I noticed
00:38:25
about an hour into the dinner I noticed I looked around the table and all the
00:38:31
plates were halfeaten all of them. No one had finished their meal. And I said I I can't help it and
00:38:38
notice, but and then people had pushed away their food or asked it to be taken away. And I'm like I said I said this is
00:38:44
very unusual. No one's eating their food. I said can I ask a question? And obviously it was off the record. I said
00:38:51
who here is on GLP1 drugs? And they all looked at each other sheepishly and like eight of the 14 uh folks it was 12 men
00:38:59
and two women raised their hands. And that is that is supposed to be the tell for if a drug works is its adoption by
00:39:06
the medical community itself. But these things I if you were to stop
00:39:12
10 people on the street in America and find 10 hardcore users of AI and 10
00:39:17
people on GLP1 drugs and query them about the impact on their life emotionally, psychologically,
00:39:23
economically, I think GLP1's having a much bigger impact on people than AI. But I'm talking about getting it down to
00:39:30
to the regular, you know, the people I You should give it out. Well, that's the thing. I did an interview with a nurse who was 350
00:39:37
pounds and she went down, but they what they did and then I introduced to her doctor who's also a well-known weight
00:39:43
loss doctor. Um, and it was um a nutritionally focused doctor, but it was
00:39:48
combined with learning how to cook at fresh foods and exercise. Like, it's the
00:39:54
whole package. Yeah, it's the whole package and not just this is not that you just take the drug and that's it. And that's what was I mean I
00:40:02
was of all the interviews I've done for this thing, that interview was the most moving cuz I had dinner with her family
00:40:08
and one thing that was really interesting is she she said to me in the kitchen, she goes, "I was embarrassed. I
00:40:15
couldn't do things with them like they went to the Grand Canyon. It's a very fit family except for her and they went
00:40:20
and um hiked and I couldn't do it and I'd have two seats on an airplane. You know, the whole the whole story of
00:40:26
overweight people and and uh and she goes, "I was I was so embarrassed for
00:40:32
them. I was embarrassing to them and I I repeated." She hadn't ever told her
00:40:37
family and they were they were heartbroken that she felt that way. It was a really um I was very moved, you
00:40:43
know what I mean? And it wasn't like I could cuz she tried everything like she tried all the diets and everything else.
00:40:49
And I have to say she has such a better life like and it it's not someone who has a lot of money very modest house in
00:40:57
in Massachusetts nurse hardworking and knows about health, right? Is not
00:41:03
someone who's not aware of the issues and just it seems like she's going to live a lot longer. That's just the the
00:41:10
facts, right? Um, and so I was like the combination of the drug with lifestyle
00:41:16
changes that and the drug allows you to do the lifestyle changes more successfully is a really interesting
00:41:22
thing. But what do you think of Trump doing this? This is like crazy. Like although it's kind of good like in this
00:41:28
case I'm like fine. I love this topic. So let me back up. The the reason why Gavin Newsome will
00:41:34
likely be president in 2028 is the same reason why we should have a federal program to get GLP1 drugs out to
00:41:41
everyone that needs them after negotiating a ridiculously low price. And it's the following. America is an
00:41:48
exceptionally and dangerously and unfairly looks country. And one of the
00:41:54
strongest forward-looking indicators of whether a child is going to suffer from adulthood depression is if they're
00:42:00
overweight. And also the American Academy of Pediatrics, which is not promiscuous around recommending drug
00:42:06
intervention for children, has recommended, right, has embrace GLP1 for children.
00:42:13
Because here's the bottom line. When you're obese in America on many levels,
00:42:19
you're [ __ ] You're going to have trouble finding a mate. You're going to have trouble getting hired. People immediately look
00:42:26
at you and regardless of how many subscriptions to the Atlantic or the New York Times, they immediately subconsciously go weak
00:42:34
and it's unfair. And then you look in the mirror and you go, I'm weak and I
00:42:40
have no control of my life. And in my view, after negotiating a radically low
00:42:46
price and playing them off against each other, every household in America that is suffering from obesity, not a woman
00:42:52
looking to lose her last 10 pounds, but if a doctor says obesity is a preage for diabetes for you, it is getting in the
00:42:59
way of your mental health. It is getting in the way of your ability to exercise, this [ __ ] should be everywhere. It's
00:43:04
like fluoride and water. Put the GLP1 in effectively, metaphorically in water.
00:43:10
This would be one of the most accreative things emotionally and financially we could do in the United States over 36 months.
00:43:16
I agree. Let we have to wrap up on this one. But let me say one of the things that I am against is like what Pete Peg
00:43:22
said did fat generals like making it awful. Figuring out ways for people to
00:43:28
have a better life is different than using fat shaming and everything. Yeah. Don't fat. I 100%
00:43:33
I'm not I'm just saying that's what I'm saying. And then the second thing is um what's interesting about the Trump administration RFK Jr. is against all
00:43:40
this and Oz is on the other side. So, this should be a really interesting discussion. I think it'll be interesting
00:43:47
to see what happens here because RFK thinks you should just jog and eat, you know, kill your own. Oh, yeah. But RFK is blessed with good
00:43:52
genetics and and Exactly. And Meett Memed is a doctor and he sees some
00:43:58
people I I you know, everybody has people who are overweight in their lives and we immediately look at them and we
00:44:03
unfairly think they're weak. A lot of them are in food deserts. A lot of them don't have the money to do anything but
00:44:08
eat cheap calories which are fat. And quite frankly, a lot of them are just born really big.
00:44:14
They're just, you know, they're born big. So, we need empathy. Having said that, Cara, I do think there was a movement that was unproductive. And
00:44:21
unfortunately, there's no, the pendulum is never at the middle where it's like, okay, let's have empathy for these
00:44:27
people. Let's figure out programs that give them the capability. Let's give them GLP-1 drugs. But when the
00:44:32
industrial food complex including Coca-Cola, McDonald's, which by the way is the stock price of Coca-Cola,
00:44:39
PepsiCo, McDonald's, KFC, they're all entirely correlated to obesity in the US. Yeah.
00:44:46
And so what did they do? And also many of the major clothing brands are very
00:44:52
much tied to plus-siz clothing. What did they do? They started to romanticize
00:44:57
and celebrate obesity. And I hate to say this and I'll get negative comments for it. You're not finding your truth.
00:45:04
You're finding a [ __ ] ventilator in diabetes. So, while we have to have empathy for these people, let's at least be honest
00:45:11
and say, folks, this is not something to romanticize and celebrate. No, but it was because of the
00:45:17
hatefulness that went on for decades before. I think for money, Cara. No, maybe so. Maybe so. But the kind of
00:45:24
for I've had heavy people in my family. It's hateful. the kind of things people say.
00:45:29
I agree with you. And now they have a tool a and then to to help get people there and
00:45:35
it is no question the right thing to do. It's just that it making making people
00:45:41
feel ugly about themselves is is never a prescription to good health. That's we we we agree with that. But should we
00:45:47
have done away with the presidential fitness awards that celebrates fitness because we think of it as fat shaming? Trump doesn't exercise. I used to be
00:45:54
very motivated to get the presidential fitness award, the third, the fourth, and I didn't get the fifth year fifth
00:45:59
fifth because I had a growth spurt and I couldn't do the pull-ups. And it was very motivating for me to be fit and
00:46:04
strong. Just one last thing, I'm I'm virtue signaling right now. Pharmaceuticals,
00:46:09
GLP-1 can do what? There was a drug. There was a drug that changed my life.
00:46:16
Changed my life. Cara Swisser. And I'm still addicted to it. What's the
00:46:23
definition of addiction? Something you continue to engage in despite the fact it damages your life.
00:46:29
That's right. I'm addicted. And baby, if this addiction is wrong, I
00:46:34
don't want to be right. Loving you is right. What are you getting that facial anyways? All right. A drug I had I have until the
00:46:44
age of 40. Until the age of 40. Mhm. I had never taken an Advil. I just never
00:46:49
took any sort of drug. I barely I think I saw the doctor eight times up until the age of 40.
00:46:55
I just didn't My parents didn't have money. It's a short story. Go ahead. Okay.
00:47:00
A drug literally changed my life. Any guesses? And it has to do with aesthetics.
00:47:06
I don't know. From the age of 13, from the age of 13 to 19, if I was ever able
00:47:13
to maneuver using a mix of humor, luck, and persistence, able to get a date, this is what you did on a date.
00:47:19
A liquor. You would take a woman to a movie. And I remember going to see Greece,
00:47:25
okay, with Melanie Burke, okay, Marina Bourke, excuse me, Marina Burke. And I was so excited. I went down to
00:47:31
this ridiculous preppy store I'd saved up. I got my mom to give me a credit
00:47:36
card. I was couldn't spend more than $30 and I bought nice corduroys and a and a polo Ralph Lauren polo shirt with the
00:47:42
actual polo logo on it and I bought Sperry topsiders. I was just so [ __ ] ready.
00:47:47
Got it. And I go into Greece and every time I went into a movie on the few dates I had,
00:47:53
I would have to purposely plan, do I go into the aisle first or do I let her go into the aisle first? And you know what
00:47:58
that was based on? What? Which side of my face had fewer zits than the other.
00:48:04
Oh, okay. Every time I went to the movies, I would strategically plan which
00:48:11
side am I going to sit on because my acne was so bad, I would have to think
00:48:16
which side is it less grotesque. Oh wow. And finally my dermatologist after
00:48:22
soaking me for six years of money I did not have uh said maybe we should try this drug
00:48:27
called Accutane. Accutane. Yeah. And in 11 weeks I had perfect skin. Oh,
00:48:35
perfect skin. And if you want to talk about someone going through the most sensitive, insecure, self-conscious time of their
00:48:42
life and they have white heads and enorm and just their face is riddled with acne
00:48:48
up and down their back and their throat and all you can think about when you're talking to someone is they're staring at
00:48:53
my zits and they hurt and they they're painful. And then nine weeks, 11 weeks
00:49:00
later, I have perfect, beautiful skin. And all of a sudden, girls are smiling at me. And all of a sudden, I don't
00:49:06
think about my skin. And all of a sudden, shaving isn't like land isn't like navigating a [ __ ] landmine.
00:49:12
It's the only letter I've ever the first letter I'd ever written to a corporation. I wrote to Hoffman Lar Ro and said
00:49:18
and said, "This has absolutely changed my life." And now, and I did this about
00:49:23
was I feel like it was two months ago, but seven months ago, I was at a gas station in Nucket where they actually pump your gas.
00:49:28
Okay. And there was a young man and he had terrible cystic acne. And I said, "Look, I'm not I I I'm probably overstepping my
00:49:35
boundaries here. I had terrible acne. I took a drug called Accutane and it cleared it up in 11 weeks and it changed
00:49:41
and now we have Scott. Do you know celebrities are micro doing Accutane now?" Just say just
00:49:46
but my point is I think that GLP1 can do that. I I I I kind of think there's an
00:49:53
equivalence between terrible acne and obesity. And if you can give people back
00:49:58
their confidence, their sense of self, their their their I mean this there's
00:50:04
nothing more badly. I if you when you see this interview you she tried everything. But in any case, um we think
00:50:11
this is fascinating. We'll keep covering it. All right, Scott, let's go on a quick break and when we come back, we'll talk about a major security hack. No,
00:50:17
not the L. Support for this podcast comes from Zeta. Marketers have been juggling too
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That's zetaglobal.com/pivot. One last time, that's zagglobal.com/pivot.
00:51:27
[Music] Scott, we're back with more news. Cyber
00:51:33
security and network security company F5 says nation state hackers broke into its systems this summer exfiltrating files
00:51:40
and stealing some source code. The breach has been blamed on stateback hackers from China. Over 80% of the Fortune Global 500 as well as
00:51:47
universities and credit unions are F5 customers. This is as big as Solar Wind said many of people I've talked to this
00:51:53
week. Actually, F5 is a publicly traded company, which would usually mean it's required to disclose cyber attacks
00:51:58
within four business days, but the DHA allowed the company delay notification, which can do for attacks that pose
00:52:04
national security risks. Uh really, um disturbing. Um and I'll note early
00:52:10
Monday morning, a major AWS outage took down services like Amazon Snapchat and Chat GPT. There's no indication of
00:52:16
malicious uh anything malicious at play. But again, every single cyber person I
00:52:22
talked to this week was like this is bad. This is another bad that that our our landscape is so porous for nation
00:52:30
hack for hackers from statebacked especially from China. Um it was a it
00:52:36
was another disturbing thing that they didn't have to say anything that people couldn't act and we are so exposed from
00:52:42
a security point of view. this was some a really bad attack for people to understand how how dependent we are on
00:52:50
on these kind of things and how vulnerable. What I don't understand is, and it's easy to huggle from the cheap
00:52:56
seats, is I've met some of our our folks who run our cyber security or
00:53:02
our cyber defense, and they're very popular conferences. And by the way, most of them have been fired
00:53:08
because they're not they're not Republicans, which makes no [ __ ] sense to me. But what they all say is
00:53:14
that we actually have the best. And what I don't understand is why isn't it like nuclear weapons in that sense that if
00:53:21
they do something like this, shouldn't we be hitting them back three times as hard until we all come to sort of a day taunt?
00:53:26
We may be, but this they were in there. One of the things that's classic of these things, they get in they've been
00:53:32
in there for 2 years and then they then they place things there and then disappear and erase where they were. And
00:53:38
that's what they've been doing. And and so, you know, there's very little known because they keep everything quiet. And
00:53:45
the question is what should people know? What should we understand about it? Um, everyone considers this as big as Solar
00:53:53
Winds um which happened in 2020, the end of 2020. And um and so you know I I
00:53:59
suspect lots of stuff is going on behind the scenes with this stuff. Um but again the cuts in by this administration again
00:54:07
exposes us. The Solar Winds happened um in the Trump administration, right? It
00:54:12
was the end of it was before B just before Biden got into office and it's the same thing the idea of like exposing
00:54:20
we we have such an exposed everything between our infrastructure
00:54:26
the surface attack is bigger and we do not have the people in place at the in
00:54:32
the government as much. I mean, remember he fired Chris Krabs, who's I I love Chris Krabs, and um you know, a lot of
00:54:39
people um but we're, you know, we all this is all interconnected, including with the with the federal government.
00:54:45
And so the Chinese have been very successful. I I suspect we have been hacking them too, etc., etc. But but um
00:54:52
but there's broad risks here that that I think we as a country we have not taken seriously given our dependence on this.
00:54:59
And even the ones that aren't deemed malicious like this one this morning these these ma if AWS has a major outage
00:55:06
all the services get affected whether it's you know the stuff we use dayto-day and so so much it's such a it's
00:55:14
something we really do we should talk about more and it's complex uh obviously
00:55:19
but we our country is much more exposed than people realize I just I'll just note that well our our tech infrastructure
00:55:26
technology loves scale and compatibility right so everything's running on same source code and and could be more fluid
00:55:31
and more frictionless. And to their credit, we have 50 states and 50 different electoral procedures and 50
00:55:38
independent technologies tallying votes. It and a lot of people or or tech
00:55:43
companies have said this should all be on one system. And the best defense against that is that okay, it's feasible
00:55:49
that one of us gets hacked, but it's very unlikely all 50 are going to get hacked because we're all on different systems. And just as technology loves
00:55:57
scale, it creates more vulnerability because you have entire power grids now
00:56:03
that are essentially if someone figures out how to hack that power grid, you know, you could have three states in the
00:56:09
southeast go down. And what this requires, which we don't have, it requires skill and resources of which we
00:56:15
have more than anyone in the world. What we don't have is the long game. So, for
00:56:20
example, I think the greatest anti-terrorist precision attack in history was the pager attack against Hezbollah. That was years in the making.
00:56:28
And what the Chinese do is a long game. My guess is a lot of a every time there's a real there's a there's a cyber
00:56:35
attack. My guess is it was put in place or the wheels were put in motion two or three years ago. And unfortunately,
00:56:41
because of this political back and forth and firing and hiring, it is much more difficult. And also just American
00:56:47
mentality focused on quarterly earnings. American mentality does not play the long game. And the Chinese, you know,
00:56:54
the Chinese have a 50-year plan. So they're already have they already have assets on the ground here trying to
00:57:00
implant listening devices, um, security code routers that maybe in
00:57:06
2, three, five years they activate. uh because what you don't want to do to raise red flags, red flags are a
00:57:13
function of not only the activity but the cluster and the concentration of them. And so if it's just one or two
00:57:19
small infiltrations and then there's not a follow-up, people don't worry as much about it. And part of there's so many
00:57:25
ways that our short-term quite frankly thinking helps us, but on a lot of levels it hurts us and this is one of those ways. These guys are in for the
00:57:31
long game. They'll they'll start putting in place the infrastructure for cyber attacks that they won't be able to activate for five or seven or 10 years.
00:57:38
Yeah, absolutely. Anyway, uh we have to move on, but um one more quick break and we'll be back for wins and fails.
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00:58:48
Okay, Scott, some wins and fails. We got to be quick because Cara's got another interview soon. Um, why don't you start?
00:58:54
Well, the obvious one here is is and we spent some time talking about it. I do
00:59:00
think that the protests were an enormous win for America. It we've all been so
00:59:05
we've all been just so desperate for some push back and wondering where Americans are. Well, 7 million turned
00:59:12
out and that's about 2% of the population supposedly there. I don't know where this test comes from, but
00:59:17
supposedly when you had 3 and a half% which would be 11 million, that's when real action starts. But I just don't
00:59:23
think there's any getting around it. A lot of Republican congressmen and senators must have noticed that and
00:59:29
said, "Okay, this is there's some real issues here." So, I thought at a minimum
00:59:34
it just gave a lot of comfort to Americans that people value our democracy. They value peaceful protest
00:59:42
and they're resisting and they're willing to give up their own time and they really do value the blessings, the liberties, and the, you know, the
00:59:48
prosperity. So, look, that's that's my win. I thought it was really really uh
00:59:53
wonderful and inspiring. And I tried to take my kids to the tube station where their mother slept to talk about
00:59:59
fascism. They wanted nothing to do with it. Um uh but there were protests in
01:00:04
Germany. There were protests in the UK. They were all incredibly peaceful, incredibly positive, incredibly
01:00:10
optimistic. It was just a good look for America, very good look um for a democracy, a very good look for people
01:00:16
who want to resist against Trump. That's my win. That's an easy one. The fail is
01:00:23
um is George Santos, a disgrace representative. His seven-year present
01:00:29
sentence has been commuted by Trump after serving just three months. He plead guilty to wire fraud and
01:00:34
aggravated identity theft. He look he he lied. He committed crimes. He
01:00:40
was an embarrassment to the government. But the thing that really chased me here, he's no longer required to pay
01:00:46
back more than $370,000 in court ordered restitution victims. So the people he lied to and stole from,
01:00:54
he no longer has to pay them back. Yeah. In addition, he he was only the sixth lawmaker in US history to be expelled
01:01:00
from Congress after an ethics report was released outlining his behavior in 2023.
01:01:06
He was also the first to be expelled uh before being convicted of federal crimes or supporting the Confederacy. So, just
01:01:13
some of his claims. He claimed his grandparents were Holocaust survivors. They were not. He claimed that the CCP
01:01:19
kidnapped his 5-year-old niece. That is not true. He claimed to be Jewish than
01:01:24
Jewish. He claimed he was a model for Vogue. That's my favorite. He claimed he had a university degree. By the way, he said
01:01:31
he went on a volleyball scholarship. That guy hasn't jumped since 1988. He claimed he had a brain tumor. And some
01:01:38
of the more outlandish things he said or did while uh after being in Congress, he spent campaign funds on Botox, Hermes,
01:01:46
and my favorite, Only Fans. He started selling $200 custom videos on Cameon. I think that's that bad. Um he had a
01:01:54
staffer impersonate Kevin McCarthy's chief of staff to raise money. And he committed ID theft by using donor's
01:01:59
credit cards to make purchases. So, and what's so sad about this
01:02:04
scam artist is that there are people who are currently incarcerated who have applied
01:02:09
for clemency and some of them have done their best to compensate their victims
01:02:17
show that they're on the right track and are deserving of clemency. And because they're trying to get
01:02:24
Marjorie Taylor Green back in camp on camp and she seemed to like George Santos, they move a guy who showed no
01:02:31
remorse who is a [ __ ] embarrassment to the Constitution to America. They
01:02:37
push this guy to the front of the line and the people he stole from are [ __ ] out of luck such that we can such that
01:02:43
the president can kiss Marjorie Taylor Green's ass. This is such an abuse of the whole the basic understanding of
01:02:50
what clemency is for. Clemency the clemency and pardoning and is a wonderful thing. We get it wrong all the
01:02:59
time in our justice system. The justice system is a powerful but it is a crude
01:03:04
instrument and we find out new evidence comes to light or we find out that for whatever reason strange laws resulted in
01:03:10
a guy who stole an antenna from a Kmart gets issued a life sentence and these things are taken seriously and very
01:03:17
talented people review these things and we're just making a mockery of the system. Anyways, my fail is that
01:03:23
Representative George Santos, his sentence was commuted because of the president's attempt to get Marjorie
01:03:29
Taylor Green to stop talking about the Epstein files. And by the way, my favorite sign was GOP, Guardians of
01:03:36
Pedophiles. Oh dear. Anyway, uh okay. All right. My
01:03:42
uh my uh fail uh was again was was let me just my fail is is this these issues
01:03:49
around um around these tech companies and safety like pushing back against the
01:03:55
idea there should be safety but it's more than that. There's a great story in the New York Times today about as tech companies build data centers worldwide
01:04:01
to advance artificial intelligence vulnerable communities been hit by blackouts and water shortages. They're
01:04:06
not just like the idea that we are against advancing technology at any and
01:04:13
then they say at any cost is ridiculous. They're setting it up so that they'll they get all the juicy bits and they
01:04:19
hurt people around the globe. 60% of the data centers are outside of the US and
01:04:24
there's lots of projects coming all over the place around the world. But it takes enormous amounts of power for computing
01:04:30
and water to cool the computers and these people are you know the famous one was was Mus going into a community I
01:04:37
think in Tennessee and polluting it because he wanted to get his thing up faster than anyone else. and every all
01:04:42
the governments are are angling to get to give them cheap land and tax breaks and things like that, but there is very
01:04:48
little transparency around um how they're building these data centers and it's the same idea. They don't care
01:04:53
about safety of anybody because they themselves are are are doing things and it's really hurting individual
01:05:00
communities and they go into vulnerable communities um to be able to to do it to do what they need to do and it's very
01:05:07
dangerous um uh and they're not really investing in the communities because most of these things use very few
01:05:13
people. Um and so and these plans just sail through and it's the same idea if
01:05:18
Anthropic wants to talk about safety or if we want to talk about safety it doesn't mean we hate it. It means that we care about the citizens more than
01:05:26
lining the pockets of David Saxs and his friends. So that would be uh my fail. Um
01:05:31
I have two very quick wins. I I've got to give a credit to um both Lorraine Pal Jobs and Ron Conway. He resigned from
01:05:38
the board of Salesforce's philanthropic arm over Mark Benio's original comments about bringing National Guard into San
01:05:45
Francisco. Lorraine Pal Jobs also wrote an essay, Beware of Philanthropists who want to control in Exchange for their
01:05:50
giving. And it was a great essay about that. I I really give kudos to them for stepping out rather a lot um against
01:05:58
Mark's stupid comments. He's he's now doesn't believe the National Guard needs to come. He he walked himself back, but
01:06:05
he looked he tarnished himself. Um so I uh I uh I uh I give credit to they
01:06:11
didn't lots of people complain, but that was it's hard to go out on a limb if you're in that group of people and they did. Um but I actually want to give the
01:06:18
win to the diplomat. It's the new season's downloaded to Netflix and Carrie Russell is so good. It's such a
01:06:24
good and Allison Janney and uh Bradley Whitford. Everybody on that cast is amazing.
01:06:29
So show you have a crush on Carrie Russ. I love her. She's a fan of Pivot by the way. I don't have a crush on her. I actually have a crush on the whole show
01:06:35
because it's so diplomaty. I wanted to be in the State Department. So I love the whole It's sort of like my I like
01:06:40
Is she going to Korea with you? No, she's not. But she We're going to have like She's a fan of Look at you light up. I just say Carrie
01:06:46
Russell when you start smiling. No, you're wrong. Not my type. But nonetheless,
01:06:51
even though you're 80, you still have hormones. No, I did not. She's not my type. You're not taking that estrogen. You're
01:06:57
getting a little I just want to say it's a great show. Lots of people like this show. Stop it. Everyone likes the show. As usual, you
01:07:04
turn something beautiful into ugliness. Um, but it's a great Never seen it. Never seen it.
01:07:09
All right. It's great. You would love it. I watched four episodes of Slow Horses last night, though. Okay. If you like that, did you do like
01:07:15
Homeland? Love Homeland. Okay. You'll love this. The the writer I think is the writer of this is Deborah
01:07:20
Khan. She's so talented. The There was one line. This is why I love it. There's all these great lines besides she
01:07:25
doesn't comb her hair, etc. And they make jokes about it. But um there's one I'm sure she looks just awful.
01:07:31
She looks She's the one that like Yeah. But yeah, that that's Let me guess. She's like
01:07:37
really sloppy and still looks like a nine out of 10, right? 11 out of 10. Yeah. Um but um she's really good. She's had a
01:07:44
great career. She's had really interesting roles including The Americans and things like that. But I don't want to talk about Carrie Dussell
01:07:49
because even though I think she's great. Um, but I have to say there's a lot there's a lot of lines in it. The writers are terrific and they and it one
01:07:55
reminded me of you which is you're you're about they're talking about her husband Hal, and I'm blanking on the
01:08:00
actor's name who played it, but who's great, too. Um, but he uh she goes, "You're you're about as subtle as a
01:08:07
kidney stone." Which I immediately thought of you, Scott. I appreciate that. You're you're about
01:08:12
as subtle as a kidney stone. Anyway, I love that show. And now you're making it ugly, which is very sad. I have comments on all of this. Are you
01:08:19
do you have to go get a pedicure with Bros. Bros. Golly? No. No. Go ahead. Very quickly. Very
01:08:24
quickly. Impossible for me. Okay. First off, the data centers. Yeah. The data centers are nothing but again another elegant transfer of wealth from
01:08:31
middle class homes to big tech. How is that going to happen? They are picking these areas where they are quoteunquote
01:08:37
desperate for jobs or where the congressperson representing that area wants to get some of that AI money uh
01:08:44
sent to their pack for um for regulatory capture for campaign fundraising. And the bottom line is these data centers
01:08:51
might as well be dark during the day. They create very few jobs. What they do is they will create jobs to get built
01:08:56
but they create very few ongoing jobs. What they do is they are so power- hungry that you are going to see 50,
01:09:02
100, 200, 300% increases in electricity costs in these areas. And what will end
01:09:07
up happening is the government, these people will get outraged. So the government will step in and will subsidize the electricity costs or the
01:09:14
grid, which is nothing but a transfer of wealth from taxpayers, especially people consuming electricity in those regions
01:09:20
to big tech firms. Everything in America right now is trying to prop up 10 firms who have been responsible for 77% of the
01:09:27
S&P's gain this year, which is the only cloud cover that Donald Trump has to send federal troops into peaceful
01:09:33
cities. This is another This will be another elegant transfer of wealth. And then what was your second one?
01:09:39
Carrie Russell. Oh, wait. Carrie Russell the diplomat. Oh, no. Mark Beni off. Let me just so I
01:09:44
can fill our YouTube comments with a bunch of hate. I love learning pal Jobs. I thought it was an elegant article. I think Ron
01:09:50
Conway is fantastic. He invested in two of my companies. This is how we lose 28.
01:09:57
And that is I get it. Mark Beni off said something stupid. He has since
01:10:03
apologized. And now everyone is doing what Democrats do. They're more interested in a purity test. They're
01:10:10
more interested in grabbing social virtue. They're more interested in getting their guardians of gotcha pin. They're more interested in going after a
01:10:16
white billionaire than they are around being effective. Mark Beni off is a huge ally for San Francisco. He is a huge
01:10:22
ally for Democrats. He [ __ ] up and he's being treated like an apostate. And this is exactly what is wrong with
01:10:28
those essays were before they they said things before and they didn't want to affiliate. If you're Mark Benny off
01:10:34
Yeah. And you have literally spent 20 years trying to be the most generous guy in California, supportive of supportive
01:10:42
of progressive policies, supportive of Democratic politics, and then all these Democrats wave in with their finger cuz
01:10:48
he [ __ ] up. And he did [ __ ] up. And by the way, he's apologized. Let's just let's just talk about the reality of
01:10:54
this. Do you think Mark Benoff is now going to be really really in it to win it and support Democratic candidates
01:10:59
right now? Or is he thinking, you know what, guys, go [ __ ] yourselves. This is what Democrats do. We have decided,
01:11:06
maybe you're my ally, but you're holding the gun wrong. So, I'm going to go after you rather than the real enemy. Could we
01:11:12
be any more [ __ ] stupid? And this is the typical Democrat for National Guard to come to San
01:11:18
Francisco. He [ __ ] up. And he's also been an enormous an enormous supporter of
01:11:24
Democratic ideals and politics. And here's the thing. I'm not agree. Oh, sorry. One striker out. We're
01:11:29
Democrats. And guess what? JD Vance in 2028. This is exactly how we lose the
01:11:35
election. No, I think we should. Democrats are much more concerned with grabbing social virtue than they are.
01:11:40
It's not social virtue to be critical of your own allies. It's not. It's normal. It's actually No, you're so far down the
01:11:48
Trump world. Such a pylon. Oh, yeah. Me and Trump were very tight. No, but Trump world is you don't
01:11:53
apologize for anything. And you you He did apologize. He kind of did, but that's okay. Whatever. He said, "I'm sorry."
01:11:59
Yes. He said, "My comments were all timed and I'm sorry." And now everyone's writing opeds about how billionaires
01:12:05
philanthroped was written, by the way, before and I think it influenced him, by the way. FYI, I think there is so much
01:12:13
there is so much happen. There is so much hate right now out there from people who see an opportunity to pile on
01:12:20
and grab social virtue at no risk to themselves, who have the Democratic Party of San Francisco.
01:12:26
Guess who I interviewed over the weekend? Bernie Sanders. He says we shouldn't even the lady giving you a squid facial in
01:12:32
soul. I interviewed Bernie Sanders and he's like this is the problem with going with the rich people. I'm just saying.
01:12:38
Okay, that's going to help us. Demonize rich people. Not demonize them, but we come on. Billionaires shouldn't exist according
01:12:45
to Bernie Sanders. No. No. Rich people had far too much of an influence in both parties. Far too
01:12:51
much. Far too much. And that's what's got to end. That's Citizens United. Yes, I get. But in the meantime, let's
01:12:57
try and get as many billionaires on our side. No, I I No, we got to The same people talking about maybe we
01:13:04
should The same people saying maybe it would be smart to bring Elon Musk back into the Democratic party are taking a
01:13:10
great Democrat who [ __ ] up and basically putting him casting him onto an island. They won't he won't they won't let him
01:13:17
into the Trump gang anyway, so it doesn't matter. That said, we should have not. There's been too much
01:13:22
billionaire influence of all the billionaires on all sides and it has to stop. Anyway, we're not going to argue.
01:13:28
Citizens United, you're saying we should we should I agree with you. We should do away with Citizens United. Okay. There we Let's end on that.
01:13:36
By the way, Mike Johnson, swear in Democratic Representative Grihalva, you
01:13:41
squirmy little [ __ ] Put Put her in office. Put her in office cuz you don't want the Epstein.
01:13:47
What a lie. What a lie. The guy running the country right now is in an unmarked grave. Jeffrey Epstein is
01:13:53
running the country right now. I swear. Put her in office. She was elected by people. I want the people to
01:13:58
speak. Anyway, we want to hear from you. Send us your questions about business tech or whatever's on your mind. Go to
01:14:04
nymag.com/pivot to submit a question for the show or call 8551 pivot. Elsewhere in the Karen
01:14:10
Scott universe, this week on On with Car, I just said I spoke with Senator Bernie Sanders as he just as he got back
01:14:15
from the no kings rally. Let's listen to what he had to say about pushing back against billionaires.
01:14:21
Money is important. I'm a politician. You don't need zillions of dollars to
01:14:26
run a campaign. You need a certain amount and you can win. But that is and then of course ultimately you got to get
01:14:32
rid of the Citizens United which allows billionaires to buy elections. So a heel turn on billionaires. Say just
01:14:38
ignore it. Just say good for them. If they want to contribute and play a role that's fine. I mean I appreciate that. I'm not, you know, there are a lot
01:14:44
of decent people happen to be billionaires. They think that democracy and truth is important. God bless them.
01:14:51
But the future of this country depends on workingclass people standing up and
01:14:56
taking on the billionaire class, which is getting richer and richer. I agree with all of that.
01:15:01
See, there you go. Now, see, you didn't think that that was the case. That's he's very reasonable. Anyway, uh and
01:15:08
reminder Bernie, I know I do, too. Lots of people do. It was amazing that a lot of Bernie bros went to Trump. I think they're coming
01:15:13
back in a lot of ways if he a lot of his messages he's coming he's coming around that suddenly everyone's coming around
01:15:18
to Bernie. Um and a reminder we're going on tour. We're we'll be going to Toronto, Boston, New York, DC, Chicago,
01:15:26
San Francisco, and LA. Visit pivotour.com for tickets. There's very few left actually. Uh okay, that's a
01:15:32
show. Thanks for listening to Pivot. Be sure to like and subscribe to our YouTube channel. We'll be back on
01:15:37
Friday. Scott, next time I see you, I will be having have had my shrimp semen uh facial. I'll let you know how it
01:15:42
goes. Read us out. Today's show was produced by Larara Neman, Zoe Marcus, and Taylor Griffin. Ernie or Todd entry this episode. Jim ML
01:15:49
edited the video. Additional support from Brad Sylvester and Rosemary Ho.
01:15:54
Thanks also to Drew Burroughs, Mia Sario, and Dan Shelon. Nishak Kura is Vox Media's executive producer of
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podcast. Make sure to follow Pivot on your favorite podcast platform. Thanks for listening to Pivot from New York Magazine and Vox Media. You can
01:16:06
subscribe to the magazine at nymag.com/pod. We'll be back later this week for another breakdown of all things tech and
01:16:15
business. Cara, uh, I call my penis Bernie Sanders because it leans far left
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and stands up for everyone. That's good.
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That's bad. [Music]