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I don't think the Trump administration thinks this is funny because they have no sense of humor, right? Especially the microp penis part, which is what
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everybody thinks of Donald Trump. He has a micro penis. Well, I mean, Cara, I can see the tie.
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[Music]
00:00:18
Hi everyone, this is Pivot from New York Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast Network. I'm Carara Swisser and August
00:00:24
rolls on. Welcome back to Scottree August.
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[Music] You like that? You like our sting? Scott
00:00:36
is still before I introduce you. Yes, Scott is still away and I know he misses me terribly. He's been posting a lot pretending he's still on the show, but
00:00:43
pretty much he's gone and uh he's sitting on the beach wishing because there's so much news. But in his place
00:00:48
once again, I have yet another amazing co-host. He's a critic at large for the New York Times and twotime Pulitzer
00:00:54
Prize winner, which Scott will never win, and the host of the Times's brand new podcast, Cannonball. It's Wesley
00:01:01
Morris. I I can't believe uh this is happening to Scott again.
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I mean, week, day after day, it's another fantastic person who is so
00:01:13
wellqualified to be my partner than other people. So, I'm thrilled that you are here. Let me just explain what your
00:01:20
podcast is all about. Now, you had a very popular podcast. Obviously, the New York Times is blowing up the whole
00:01:25
podcast division with videos and this and that. So, talk about what where the name Cannonball came from and talk a
00:01:31
little bit about your podcasting history because it's been terrific actually. Uh, thank you. Um, well, I you know, Jay
00:01:38
Woreram and I had this show called Still Processing. Um, it was, you know, one of
00:01:44
the happiest things I've ever been involved with. Uh, and now I'm doing this other culture show. And I mean,
00:01:53
mostly it's it's me sort of thinking through,
00:01:59
you know, art, TV shows, movies, books, sports. I mean, anything that I'm kind of curious about
00:02:06
and trying to make these connections between one thing to another thing. usually, you
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know, so far it's been me talking to other people about like what's coming up for them as I'm trying to work out my stuff with
00:02:19
the other person. Um, and the name, you know, I I wanted
00:02:25
to call this show some other things. Tell me tell me the name you wanted. I know how the New York Times is about
00:02:30
names. I shoved mine through so hard. But did you have to fight to get Sway called Sway?
00:02:36
Oh, yeah. But you know what? I didn't care. I refused to do it without the name. But what was the name you wanted?
00:02:41
Tell me the name. I wanted to call it Parlando. Polando. Parlando.
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Parland. I love that. Which, you know, for our musicologist friends, it, you know,
00:02:52
explain that. It's essentially um it's an opera term and it essentially means to sing in a
00:03:00
manner that is recognizable as speech essentially. But there's also in there's a great tradition of parlando and pop
00:03:07
music. We just don't really call it that. But you know, some of your favorite singers are Parland. I don't know, Cara. I don't want to impuse
00:03:14
you of being a Larry Cohen fan. Oh, yeah. No, no, they talk. Yeah. Or a Grace Jones fan.
00:03:20
Yeah. Um, but I wanted to call the show that because I can't sing, but I I can talk.
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You can have been a verb. It It Well, I mean, it could have been a It could have been a verb, but you know
00:03:32
what's great about Cannonball? what is that I have discovered that I have been using it at people when they come
00:03:39
on um both you know as a verb like we cannonball
00:03:44
Oh good so you're going to make it into something I mean it already is a verb right that is how we're using happen yeah I mean like there's you're
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in a pool and you do a cannonballing song yeah there's a song cannonball do you play that on the show
00:03:57
uh no I think that probably cost $500,000 I would love to give Kim deal that money
00:04:03
Yeah, but I don't think I mean we have a great theme song. I love our theme song. A guy named Justin Ellington did it.
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It's wonderful. It is so not Cannonball by the Breeders. But it's something it's something as good as
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far as I'm concerned. You don't like Cannonball the song? I didn't want to let that slip by. I love the Cannonball. I don't know. I
00:04:21
guess I it reminds me of my youth. I guess whenever I hear it, I'm I'm like gh like there's like it's not the song.
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It's not the song. It's the It's something that happened during the song. I don't know. Maybe teenage.
00:04:35
We've got to recover this memory. This is 1993. I want to say last splash is like 93 94.
00:04:43
94. Yeah. I want to recover the memory though cuz it really, you know, there are these
00:04:48
cultural artifacts that are
00:04:53
you can't quite you don't there are things where like you know exactly why you feel the way you feel about it, but
00:04:58
then there are these other things that they're not they're not pristian. Like I don't Well, I can't say in your case if
00:05:04
this is is or is not a Christian experience. It's not one of the high ones. I mean landslide, forget it. That's the that
00:05:10
landslide. That one I listen to and weep that. But do you know why? Uh I had a crush on a friend of mine and
00:05:17
I was gay and I was I listen to it a lot. I just I can't believe I'm telling you this. That's what happened.
00:05:24
I think I think that that's that's an important one. But but you can identify why Landslide is a song you love. Yeah.
00:05:30
Cannonball being a song you don't like. Let's see. '94. What was it? What was I
00:05:36
doing in 1994? God, it was so long ago. If you can't remember what was going on then, isn't that's another
00:05:42
DC. I thought I was going to ask if you were in DC. That's I was I was at the Washington Post. I
00:05:47
was I was I just become a reporter, you know. I was in the business section.
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I don't know. I don't know. Maybe a It's got to be a relationship. It's got
00:05:59
they're all relation. I don't know. Were you going to bars? Were you going No, I'm not a bar person. I'm not. I
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That's the whole thing, you know. You know, my wife Amanda, she loves a bar. I mean, you know, I don't like to dance.
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I know. It's Wait, you're not a dancer? I'm not. I just like my son and Amanda always joke, one of my sons and Amanda
00:06:18
always joke that I don't like swimming. I don't like dancing. I don't like bars. Just such a
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Well, were you missing out in DC? Because DC strikes me as having like some great like having had anyway some
00:06:31
great gay bars. Yes, it did. It did. It did. There still are a couple there. Except now like it's
00:06:36
populated by the government. Yeah, I was going to say they're they really Can we talk about that?
00:06:41
We're going to We're going to We've got a lot to get to. Why are they hanging out at the gay bars? I mean, because they're
00:06:46
I mean, listen, Cara, it's always been an issue. Anyway, all right. We're going to get to a lot of
00:06:51
things. Anyway, cannonball. So, you talked to was who's the last person you talked to in Cannonball? Let's focus on
00:06:57
that the public can hear. It's probably Vincent Cunningham. He and I talked about the new Spike Lee movie, Highest
00:07:02
to Lowest. Um, that that happened this week. And then next week is going to be
00:07:08
a conversation with me and Sam Anderson talking about um old summer movies. Uh I Well, you know,
00:07:16
I had this feeling that this summer was going to be really dry. It was and it was in fact dry. And you
00:07:22
know, it was the usual thing that happens now with our summers. You get a lot of sequels, a lot of, you know, eighth editions of something.
00:07:29
Superman. But, you know, my favorite movie from this summer is weapons. I don't know if you've seen this movie.
00:07:34
I can't see it. It's scary. I don't like you got to just like That's another thing I can't do. Really? I can't I know. I know. It's like
00:07:40
Sinners. I finally went to sinners. I did. I thought it was scary and then it was fantastic. Um I just
00:07:45
This is scarier than sinners to me. I know. Exactly. This guy is a very gifted filmmaker. It's very clear. It's
00:07:50
incredible. Um, but the arms with the kids. Yeah. I just don't like that. I don't know why
00:07:56
that upset me and I don't want to see it and I don't want it I I've seen it in this posters and I don't want to see it
00:08:01
in my head. Like I I was just in my town. I was driving through it was on Long Island doing something which um the
00:08:08
New York Post has reported about. Um they were filming The Devil Wears Produ out there. I won't say more. Um and so
00:08:17
has just been sold. Okay. All right. Um, so, uh, very minor situation. So, um, so I I I grew up
00:08:24
there and there was a movie theater that used to be there and I saw, um, Cry, Tales from the Crypt there, uh, when I
00:08:30
was a kid with my brother. He dragged me on a rainy day. Uh, I had a turkey sandwich in my pocket
00:08:36
and which what, by the way, stayed there for too long uh, later. But, um, but it
00:08:41
was uh, from the Clock Tower restaurant and that I did not like seeing that movie. That upset me. There was a Santa
00:08:46
that was evil in it, etc. remember that movie and I was with my brother in an old movie theater and I never forgive
00:08:52
him for taking me to that um movie. So I don't see horror movies very much but this one is then
00:08:57
since then I saw Halloween once and I did not I did not appreciate it even though I very much like Jamie Lee
00:09:03
Curtis. Um yeah I mean Halloween's a that's a no-brainer in terms of just like a
00:09:08
really visceral movie going experience. Well, a guy grabbed my legs during the scary scene in behind me cuz he had seen
00:09:15
it before. And I have bad experiences hor. So, this one looks beautifully done horror movie. So, that's why I imagine
00:09:21
it would stick with me. Good. It's very good. Anyway, the point of bringing that up is weapons. Yeah, weapons is the only like it's the only
00:09:26
thing it's one of the few things this summer based on an original screenplay and so when sinners sort of bled into
00:09:34
summer, right? was earlier the conversation around it did summer and I think you know part of
00:09:39
the reason Sam and I wanted to talk about old movies was because we didn't think we were going to get any good new ones this summer turns out that is
00:09:45
basically true I mean we got weapons and like some residual sinners conversation
00:09:50
cuz it arrived I don't know one of these streaming platforms probably HBO HBO Max um which
00:09:57
I just I'm just saying HBO I don't know what we're doing whatever you want they'll change it next week what was your favorite old movie.
00:10:04
Old movie. Uh I mean, well, I mean, the thing that Sam Anderson and I talk about is Ghost, but uh in Total Recall. Those
00:10:11
are our two movies, but I love that movie. That's a great That's the summer of 1990. Yeah. You know what the Swissers watch
00:10:18
every year here on the summer vacation? I'm on a is um is Patrick Sees and Roadhouse. That
00:10:23
Oh, wow. It was so good. So, it holds up. Why Why that?
00:10:28
Because we love it because there's so many great lines in it. Go watch it, Wesley. I I mean I've Your life will be changed.
00:10:33
I've my life has already been changed by Patrick sees. I mean many times. I mean
00:10:39
well Ghost was amazing and he's I just love Patrick sees. I really do. I don't know like dance uh you know the dancing
00:10:45
movie. He's a dirty dancing. Dirty dancing. Yeah. He's a strange movie star that we'll
00:10:50
never get again because you know he's not really good at anything. No. But he's a good dancer. That's not
00:10:56
true. He's a beautiful dancer. That's true. Yeah. Well, I mean, he's good. He's good enough for the movies.
00:11:02
Um, good dance. But what I would say is like the thing that's great about Patrick Sees as a as
00:11:07
a person on camera is he's got all the intangible things, right? I mean, handsomeness, but also a
00:11:14
little swagger, but like a real vulnerability or an access. He's feminine. He's got a femininity,
00:11:19
too. Yes. And I think that there's that that
00:11:25
conflation of of of several different um like his gender spectrum is bright and
00:11:33
and functioning simultaneously with every performance. He's just a sweetheart. I just think
00:11:39
he's a sweet and he seems like a kind person. Yes, he does. And he's always great. We're going to be nice until it's time not to
00:11:44
be nice. Yeah. Point Break. No, that was that that was Roadhouse. Point Break was another one he was
00:11:50
amazing in. I mean, oh, I thought, oh, I forgot. I can't quote Roadhouse the way I can quote Roadhouse. That's correct.
00:11:56
And I we sit around and we insult the Jake Gyllenhaal version. We before we watch the regular Roadhouse, we say,
00:12:03
you know, we we curse the the remake of it, even though there's some very good actors in it.
00:12:10
I feel bad for the remade house. I don't know why they did it. I I'm a big Jake
00:12:17
Gyllenhaal person. Um I don't like him doing movie star karaoke. Like the idea
00:12:24
of him doing Patrick Sees and Pat and uh Harrison Ford in the same year
00:12:29
essentially. Um I didn't like it. But I mean because he's his own thing, right? Like I don't think that he needs to.
00:12:36
I'm not a fan. I love that he was doing that movie this summer that Taylor Swift had her enormous tour because it was
00:12:43
like, yeah, here he was in sad little road house and she was billionaires selling out
00:12:48
stadiums. I mean, I don't want to skip ahead or anything, but I did find that
00:12:54
part of that podcast conversation that she had with the Kelsey brothers um to be
00:13:02
really fascinating when she's like, "My favorite part of that entire
00:13:08
um re-recording Odyssey was getting to do her 10-minute version of All Too
00:13:13
Well," which allegedly, you know, is about the person we were just discussing. Of course it is. We're going to get to
00:13:18
her, too. All right. Look, look, we got the can. Okay, you're rush us. You're rushing. You're not rushing us. We got lots of
00:13:24
things to talk about. Um, we've been talking just a little bit. Um, we this week you're talking
00:13:30
about Spike Lee's latest movie. Last week you were talking about the series finale of Just Like That.
00:13:35
Listen, did you watch that show? Hello. I love Sarah Jessica Parker. I don't I not of the haters. I I mean, I
00:13:41
can see why people hate watch it, but I love it. Was so [ __ ] you. I love a [ __ ] you like to everybody. I love it. the
00:13:48
poop. Like, oh my god, they really did that. And then her last thing was like,
00:13:53
"Fuck you. I'm gonna dance away in my thing." Um, did you like it or not? You probably
00:13:59
hate watched it. No, I love the show. I love the show. I really think it's one of the great
00:14:05
projects about friendship that we've ever had. Yeah. Um, I mean, I don't care if we're
00:14:11
talking about books, movies, TV. I mean, it's one of the great works of of
00:14:17
friendship um and all the vicissitudes of being
00:14:23
close to people um for a long time. Can I give you a premise? You remember
00:14:28
when they got into trouble for not being diverse enough. There's lots of shows of dudes, white
00:14:33
dudes, black dudes, all kinds of dudes kind of thing where there's never diversity among them, right? This show
00:14:40
got slapped for it in a way that other shows don't and I thought it was really
00:14:45
interesting as I watched it. I was trying to think of a popular show that didn't really try very hard that was a
00:14:51
long thing is it was on forever. I guess that's because it was so long 98 to you know now more or less right
00:14:58
as much as I hate to say this is probably what a lot of if the people they're depicting their lives would have been like this so they were kind of
00:15:05
depicting the lives they wouldn't have had a lot of diverse friends necessarily unless you know just unless they sort of
00:15:13
you know van diagrammed into fashion I guess right which was right but no I I agree with you I mean
00:15:21
that's I don't point if this is the if I live in New York City.
00:15:26
Yeah. I go to restaurants all the time and you know what I see a lot of the time when I
00:15:32
go out is four white ladies Mhm. yucking it up. Yucking it up.
00:15:37
And I think I didn't need that to be the case if that wasn't the case from the
00:15:43
beginning. Right. But I think the amazing sort of one of the cool things about the and
00:15:49
just like that project was it was going to take a different risk, right? It was going to absorb the
00:15:55
criticism of the show not being quote diverse enough, right? Which nobody I mean did anybody say Tony
00:16:04
Soprano needs a black friend? That's what I was thinking of. I was like there were no black people on Well, no. No, never. I mean, just I mean,
00:16:11
there were there were some, but they they weren't they weren't major characters. I mean, they were like ancillary. You'd get an episode where
00:16:18
Christopher Christopher was hanging out with some negroes, right? Um, that's what would happen.
00:16:25
Yeah. Yeah. Right. But I think that, you know, the idea that these women would come back,
00:16:30
you know, minus Samantha, and be put into a post George Floyd
00:16:36
United States, what would it then mean for them to be able to stay on HBO for one thing during
00:16:43
this period, but also what would be realistic what would be a realistic
00:16:48
experience for them as women who were realizing that the world had changed and
00:16:54
that they they were part of the problem in some way without actually saying,
00:16:59
"Hey, we're part of the problem." Right? Like Charlotte goes on like Charlotte, Carrie, and Miranda go on these
00:17:06
respective crusades to find some nonwhite people.
00:17:13
So, the ones that you have were would made sense would have maybe happened, right? The
00:17:18
Yes. It didn't feel forced to me. Yes. It didn't feel this when they got past Chay, it didn't feel forced cuz I
00:17:26
thought the woman who played the real estate agent was amazing and then the filmmaker Serita Chowry amazing. Amazing.
00:17:32
That is one of the best performances on a show. I love her that I can think of. I mean I with all
00:17:38
due respect to you know I bow down Kim Catrol but this is just a like a deeper version of the same character to me
00:17:45
and I believe I've met that person. I've met that person. I met real estate lady who's like a killer. And the same
00:17:51
thing with with um I'm totally blank. Lisa Nicole Ari Parker. Yeah. Amazing. I've met that woman. I met that
00:17:58
woman. Like I know her and she would have hung out with them. Anyway, I love that show. And let me just say I love Sarah Jessica Parker. I
00:18:04
know her a little bit. And um uh she's she's actually a fan of Pivot. She may be listening to this. I think she has
00:18:11
delivered more entertainment. I always think of like who delivers more entertainment in their lifetime and she
00:18:16
certainly has in lots of roles whether but I actually think that what you're identifying is something interesting
00:18:22
about her which is that you know we haven't really I don't know I have not
00:18:27
experienced like a useful or or um enlightening appreciation of what it is
00:18:35
that she did both as Carrie and what she what kind of entertainer she's been all
00:18:40
this time. I think that there's something the one of the things I loved and sometimes cringed at but like loved
00:18:47
the nerve of um in her work as Carrie is
00:18:52
that you know Carrie Bradshaw was somebody who was very present to the moment in
00:18:58
the late 90s and early 2000s right she kind of had a really great bee girl
00:19:04
white bee girl energy and she there was like a little hiphop
00:19:09
dimension to her glamour Mhm. And the way that she would both incorporate like black slang and like
00:19:16
borched belt comedy. Great. Um into her like throwaway line
00:19:22
deliveries. I always thought that was great. Yeah. Um the way she could screw her face up was, you know, that's like 1930s, 1940s
00:19:29
screw ball. Um I just think that that performance is
00:19:34
very very good. And it and it got to the to the end and it got better. Yeah, it
00:19:39
got even better. Four episodes were amazing. Yes, I agree. I agree. I think she's great. I would give her
00:19:45
kudos. She was also in a movie that it was about a family where she was sort of the girlfriend that nobody liked. Uh
00:19:51
oh, Family Stone, the the knockoff Home for the Holidays. Yeah. Yes. But I love that movie cuz I loved her performance in it because she was
00:19:57
sort of this difficult woman and she didn't hide it and her difficulty and then she falls in love with the other
00:20:02
brother, etc. But I loved her in that movie. I don't know why. I appreciated her after
00:20:07
part of that great stretch that she had in the movies because of the show. Yeah. Right. I mean, if you can remember this,
00:20:14
Cara, her like early '9s version of her, the early '9s version of herself. I don't
00:20:20
know if you remember this, but there was this movie with Bruce Willis as some
00:20:25
kind of like um river cop, like coastal guard cop called
00:20:31
It's Striking Distance. Oh, yes. Yeah, I know. They're on the river in Pittsburgh. Yeah, she Well, she
00:20:36
was in that. She was one of the She was his partner, I believe. She was driving a boat. Oh, that's like
00:20:43
when Meil Street drove a boat. Remember that? The River Wild. Who could forget? May I say she's the classiest dame I've
00:20:49
ever met. I won't say how. Anyway, um President Trump is We're moving on.
00:20:54
President Trump is accusing You can't go from Meil Street to President Trump. We are because listen because
00:21:00
historically speaking, um she's been in many history movies that's why. Um, President Trump is accusing Smithsonian
00:21:06
of focusing too much on quote how bad slavery was and not enough on the brightness of America. Trump said in a
00:21:12
post on true socials, he's directed his attorneys to go through the museums and start the same process done with
00:21:18
universities across the country. He also noted the country cannot be woke because woke is broke. The comments come a week
00:21:23
after the White House announced a sweeping review of the Smithsonian. Museums are given 120 days to change
00:21:28
content the Trump administration finds problematic in tone, historical framing and alignment with American ideals. I
00:21:34
mean I please just go on please just pontificate on on what is happening
00:21:41
here. How bad slavery was here. Can I start here? Can I can I
00:21:46
start here? Can I start here? You may start where you are. I want to take you back to February 24th. Sorry, February 21st, 2017.
00:21:55
Okay. This is like a month after the inauguration. Yeah. And I mean, because this is what
00:22:01
I've been thinking about. This man, a month after the inauguration, gets a
00:22:07
tour of the relatively still new Smithsonian Museum of African-American
00:22:13
History and Culture, which which we which we at my house call the Blackonian.
00:22:18
Um, the president, I like that name, gets a tour of this museum from Lonnie
00:22:26
Bunch, the man who is now in charge of the whole Smithsonian system and is under fire to
00:22:32
gladden it up, right? Um, he President Trump gives this speech. I I have the entire speech. I'm
00:22:39
not going to read all of it. Okay, please. Cara, I'm going to I'm going to just like read some of it
00:22:44
because I don't rec this person this person is a different person.
00:22:50
Um I am very proud of Lonnie Bunch the work and the love that he has done in his heart and what and for what he's
00:22:55
done is I always need to talk he's like this is not a written speech. I I always need to talk to you. I always need to
00:23:02
talk about your you need need enthusiasm. You need really you need really love for anything. You you do it
00:23:08
successfully and Lonnie where are you? Come on, Monty. I'll skip ahead. Then he thanks David Rubenstein who he just
00:23:14
fired from the Kennedy Center. Yeah. Uh it's a privilege to be here today. This museum is so is a beautiful tribute
00:23:20
to so many American heroes. Heroes like Sojourer Truth, Harriet Tubman, Frederick Douglas, Booker T. Washington,
00:23:26
Rosa Parks, the Greensboro students, the the students who had a sin at a at a at
00:23:32
a Wworth in Greenboro, North Carolina. um the African-American Medal of Honor
00:23:37
recipients among so many other really incredible heroes. It's amazing to see. I went to M Dash. We did a pretty
00:23:45
comprehensive tour, but not comprehensive enough. Cara, not comprehensive enough. So, Lonnie, I'll
00:23:52
be back. I told you that because I could stay here for a lot longer. Believe me,
00:23:58
it's really incredible. I am deeply proud. I am deeply proud that we now
00:24:04
have a museum that honors the millions of African-American men and women who
00:24:10
built our national heritage, especially when it comes to faith, culture, and the
00:24:15
unbreakable American spirit. My wife was here last week and took a tour and it
00:24:20
was something that she still is talking about. Ivanka is here right now. Hi,
00:24:26
Ivanka. And it is really very special. It's something that frankly if you want to know the truth, it's doing so well
00:24:32
that everybody's talking about it. Incredible. Well, he was talking.
00:24:38
You tell me what's happening. Because he had people around him who were like, "This is a good thing." And you know, look, I'm sorry. I've been
00:24:44
Donald Trump's been a racist since Oh, come on. I mean, who are you talking about? Forever. Like, never not been a racist.
00:24:50
And so this is what's happened between age, power, and not being stopped by
00:24:56
someone not govern this. Yes. Yes. He he now is showing you exactly who he is. Like slavery is like like how bad
00:25:05
why is it too much on how bad slavery was? There is not a number of how bad it was, right? There is not a number high
00:25:12
enough to to do it. But I think he just was told what to do there. And he had I hate to say it, he had Ivanka there. You
00:25:18
mean on the on the on February 21st? February 17th, 2020 or
00:25:24
people who were like slavery was bad. Let's stick with slavery was bad on this one. Terrible. The worst thing ever. And
00:25:32
you know the original sin, whatever. There's no there's several original sins, but um well, he wants them all gone. So
00:25:38
all gone. So what do you how do you what do you think about these attempts? And do you think they're you know, he just
00:25:44
will not give up on this woke thing, which is nuts? And they had there was a bunch of interviews in front of the
00:25:49
museum and they showed people what he said like all kinds of people not just like what you'd imagine be angry about
00:25:55
it but they were like what what like talk about this and what they're trying
00:26:01
to do here from a cultural point of view. Um they're trying to purify they're trying to create some idea of a of a of
00:26:10
a thing that you know has been being attempted for 400 years. Right. True.
00:26:15
like a like a new thing a racially purified well it's just never been achieved right there's never been
00:26:22
there's I mean not even Woodro Wilson has gone as far as Trump is trying to go and Wilson was was you know racist all
00:26:28
but a KKK member right um I think that
00:26:34
this is propaganda at its at its I mean most blatant right this is the
00:26:43
beginning of something Right. I mean, if you look at the prongs that are that are
00:26:49
laid out on this table essentially holding it up, um, you've got the National Guard down the street probably
00:26:56
around the museum, right? Exactly. Because, you know, those black people act up a lot. Like that's where
00:27:02
they would put the National Guard like idiots like where no crime is taking place. But we'll get into that.
00:27:07
Right. But where like in a city where you know if you ask the average DC resident like could could things be a
00:27:15
little better from the standpoint of public safety they would say yes. But do I think the solution to that is
00:27:22
the National Guard? No. It's housing. You know it's get let people go to
00:27:28
sleep. I mean this is my number one thing about like like what we call crime and mental health situations. I think a
00:27:36
lot of this stuff is just I think a I think stress and not having a place to
00:27:43
actually reset your brain every night contributes to what we don't we probably
00:27:50
wouldn't even qualify um certain aspects of urban crime as
00:27:55
mental illness because we've been culturally conditioned to think of it as
00:28:00
gang warfare and the people suck but No, it's the
00:28:06
systemic conditions that have led people to behave this way. Now, I'm not try whatever this is a whole other this is a
00:28:13
whole other aspect of this conversation, including see slavery, but right, but I think that the the point
00:28:18
here is that something is something is being
00:28:25
gotten underway essentially, right? And I think purifying the story of American
00:28:31
history is part of it. I think creating an environment in which
00:28:37
they can use Washington DC as a test case for how this might go once you start rolling it out in Detroit,
00:28:44
Chicago, Philadelphia, New York City, Los Angeles. I mean, he's describing cities as blood soaked and cess poolools, which I'm
00:28:50
like, no, they're not. I have raised children in DC and San Francisco, whatever. You know, Cara, I'm actually
00:28:56
curious about this because I think it only takes one
00:29:02
upset white woman. Yeah. To have an experience that she didn't
00:29:07
like and for that to reach somebody on the staff of this administration or to reach him, right?
00:29:13
Well, was in this case it was Big Balls, right? big balls got beat up in on 14th Street which is not as you know it's
00:29:19
crazy on Saturday night it is I lived over there and I lived a block away and it it it's a city like I I don't
00:29:26
know what to say it's a city like all cities have their issues and you don't want to minimize crime but the the idea
00:29:32
of maximizing it and create it's almost pornographic in the way they're maximizing it like bloodbath ongoing
00:29:39
this it's like just not true. Yeah, it's it does not correspond with the reality
00:29:44
that most people are living. But I will say that I mean I can't speak to its
00:29:50
effectiveness. I think what you're telling me about when people are like man on the streeting responses to the
00:29:56
news that he wants to like remove slavery from a museum that, you know, is telling the story from slavery to like
00:30:02
the glorious things that African-Americans have contributed to this country. Um, and how you can't if
00:30:08
you you remove slavery and we're not America anymore, right? Right. Who are we?
00:30:13
They will be removing the glorious things. Just so you know, it's not just it's not just slavery is bad, but white
00:30:18
people did the most things. I mean, I think that's what's really what's happening here. I mean, although talk a little bit about the Kenny Center
00:30:24
Honors, because it goes there, too. Speaking of cultural impacts, it it includes Kiss, Sylvester Salone, and
00:30:30
Gloria Gainor. Um the the country music star they picked good country music
00:30:35
star. I'm sorry. I mean I as much I mean also Stallone I'm not against Stallone even though I think he's kind of heinous
00:30:41
in many ways. I think he's culturally relevant in some fashion. Um talk a
00:30:46
little bit about these honors. What do they say about Well, it's funny. I'm going to do an episode about about these about the
00:30:53
these five people and uh this particular situation kiss glory gainer George
00:30:58
Strait Michael Crawford Crawford again important Broadway star
00:31:04
no question he's not getting like under ordinary circumstances is Michael C like can I give you a list of people who are who
00:31:10
have not been Kennedy center yes I get it you start with has Audrey McDonald gotten one yet I don't know
00:31:16
I mean no she has not has I You know, I mean, I just there's so many
00:31:21
people like the Democrats aren't giving it to Madonna either, but but I mean, but but somebody on the
00:31:29
board at some point would just be like, listen, I think it's kind of cool that Madonna hasn't gotten it cuz it's kind
00:31:34
of it's sort of a badge of honor, but the idea that Julia Roberts is inducting George Clooney x number of years ago and
00:31:40
she hasn't been Kennedy Senator. Yeah, that's true. you know, I mean, Glen Close, I mean, there's just like a long
00:31:46
list of people who have not been who've not gotten it. Um, but here we are, right? But I
00:31:51
actually think that, you know, Sylvester Stallone and George Straight, those are no-brainers to me. Yeah. Um, that's like that's easy. That's
00:31:59
that's not hard. Gloria Gainor, I don't know what that is. That I mean, listen, there's a part of me
00:32:06
there's a part of me that's like I don't know. Still a little DEI left in this administration. Yeah. Yeah. They needed to find some a
00:32:13
person of color who would say yes. And what did they get? I mean, even they still feel a kind of pressure
00:32:22
to acknowledge that even though they're letting all these Africconers in the country under
00:32:28
victimization statutes of some kind. We got to find one. We got We got to find one.
00:32:33
We got to find one. Are you going to go? I I used to cover the Kenny Center on for the Washington Post. Just so you know, when I was a
00:32:39
younger, speaking of my time, that was my job, one of the jobs in the style section. I have to say it was a ball
00:32:44
because it was it was like fun. It was really fun. I mean, Trump's hosting, which could be hysterical.
00:32:50
He's hosting for now. I don't know how that's going to go. Can you imagine? Like, what are the rehearsals? Well, for
00:32:56
Who are they going to get? Who are they going to get? Wait, stop for one second. What? I'm sorry. This man is going to have to go to
00:33:01
rehearsals. I know. I know. But he loves that. He doesn't want to rehearse. He's just going to extemporaneously talk about how
00:33:07
slavery wasn't that bad. Not I mean and broadcast it live on CBS, which is also what they want to do.
00:33:13
Yeah, I know. I mean, typically, for anybody who doesn't know, I mean, this this is a this is a ceremony that happens a month
00:33:19
before anybody in the public gets to see it. That's right. They have a month to like make a television show out of this live event.
00:33:25
Right. Right. That's right. You can't pro I mean, you could broadcast it live if everybody's on
00:33:30
their P's and Q's. It It will be broadcast live. Stop it. You know that. I mean, in today's what
00:33:35
whether whatever CBS does in their in their behaviors, it doesn't matter. Are you going to go? You need to go.
00:33:41
Oh my god. I need you to go. Are you assigning me? I'm assigning you to go and do a show about it. You need to go.
00:33:47
I am going to do an episode about the nominees and like like the the the rightness and wrongness of having the
00:33:52
president choose them. But I guess I don't know. I could try I could that's like a I'll I'm going to think about
00:33:57
that because you're right. Maybe it would be worth he's trying to culturally take over this old old age. He's going to rename it
00:34:03
after him. He's going to rename the center after him. He's already on his way to naming the opera house after Melania.
00:34:09
The Trump Center. No, that's not going to work. What? The Donald J. Trump Center. We're
00:34:14
not going to call it the Trump Center. I've been listening to you talk about this man for years. You are one of the
00:34:20
smartest people on this person. Um I think that you understand what I think
00:34:27
you understand him. You're one of the people who understands him. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's cuz my mother is drunk. But
00:34:33
go ahead. I know. I mean, I think that that I think the people who have the biggest insights into him
00:34:40
understand him as a family member, right? Yeah. Um, for sure. But I also feel like, you know, it's
00:34:47
funny cuz I feel lucky cuz I felt like, you know, you know, at my house it was pictures of John Kennedy, John F.
00:34:53
Kennedy and Martin Luther King. That was who that was who, you know, my grandmother and her sisters had around
00:34:59
the house. My mother liked Jackie's outfits, but that's um but I think that there is I I just am
00:35:05
curious about, you know, he he's like a stopped clock
00:35:11
in some ways. So that when he says like things at the Kennedy like there aren't good shows at the Kennedy Center, it's
00:35:16
not true, but they would I mean some of the things didn't work. Yeah. Right. Not everything was great that
00:35:22
that went on there. I mean in terms of like the quality of the thing, not morally bad. There had been there had
00:35:28
been years ago I saw when Audrey McDonald her first show master class with Zo Caldwell. You saw the original master
00:35:34
I saw it six times. She was amazing and I saw Spalding Gray there doing his show was amazing there and one of his shows
00:35:41
and so there used to be a lot more interesting things there and then it
00:35:46
just became like but the fact of the matter is the point is like the the the like great people
00:35:52
who made that place an exciting place to go do anything have gone like Ben Foss split one of my
00:36:00
favorite like performers Ben Ben Foss I love him uh he's out Renee Fleming
00:36:07
hit the road hit the road um and now he's taken over the board I don't I don't know I I
00:36:13
David Rubenstein well you know the telling thing about this whole Kennedy Center thing is I don't know if you caught this but when
00:36:18
he gave that press conference talking about like how bad it was and talking about how he was going to
00:36:24
take over like he was going to host host the show. He said, "I want one of the I
00:36:29
wanted one of these. I want an honor." He does. He wants everything. He wants a Nobel Prize. He wants
00:36:35
I waited and waited and waited and I said, "The hell with it. I'll become chairman."
00:36:40
That's right. I'll give myself an honor. Maybe next year we'll honor Trump. Yep. That's what he said.
00:36:46
We probably will have to. Although I would enjoy that. What the [ __ ] I say yes cuz I just want to see the
00:36:52
whole horrible thing. All right. Well, we have to go on a quick break. When we come back, the White House joins Tik
00:36:58
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00:38:20
Wesley, we're back. Tik Tok just got a new user, the White House. The Trump administration launched an official account this week, despite the fact that
00:38:26
a federal law requires Tik Tok to be sold or banned, though Trump keeps extending the deadline illegally. By the
00:38:31
way, the new White House account posted several videos, including one in which Trump says, "I am your voice." Posts
00:38:37
were quickly flooded with spam and negative comments, many referencing the Epstein files. Trump is reportedly still
00:38:42
working on a deal for US investors to buy Tik Tok from its parent company, Bite Dance. Probably Larry Ellison will
00:38:48
be involved in that. The latest deadline for the ban expires in midepptember. Uh
00:38:53
he keeps extending it. Talk about him using Tik Tok and years ago, just so people don't know, he called Tik Tok a
00:38:59
national security threat in 2020 and tried to ban it back then. Then he shifted when one of his biggest donors
00:39:04
he realized was one of a um uh was one of the biggest investors in it, Jeff Yas. Um, so any thoughts on them doing
00:39:12
this? I, you know, I I gotta be honest. Well, first of all, I I would have just assumed that the White House had already
00:39:18
had a Tik Tok account before before this guy got back into office. Not that Biden
00:39:23
would have been all over it or anything, but there would have been some like young person in the Biden administration
00:39:29
who's like, "Hey, Uncle Joe." Yeah. Yeah. They had a pretty good They had a pretty good social media group there. I mean, I
00:39:36
thought they did. I so I'm surprised by that. But I also I mean I this as a
00:39:41
story I know that I'm supposed to be disturbed and upset by the idea of
00:39:47
simultaneously the national security threat being addressed like you know legitimately you got to find somebody
00:39:53
else to do this. Can't let the Chinese government involved in you know our private business. I think the ship has
00:39:58
sailed. I don't know about you. Um if if if you were on it they got it. I think
00:40:03
it's a wrap. It's how many like every America like are they are there new Tik Tok users besides the White House?
00:40:09
Yeah. No, I agree. Tik Toks that's what I always thought would happen. They don't do anything else.
00:40:14
They don't it I just think like most of these media things they'll go up and down and Tik Tok's not on the ascension
00:40:20
necessarily. I don't know what the new thing will be. Probably YouTube in many ways oddly. How do you Well, YouTube knew how like
00:40:28
in terms of I mean people you growth. Yeah. When you look at the growth, I think they've been they're fine. They're sort of baked in.
00:40:35
Um, Threads is actually growing bigger than X right now, which is really interesting. They're reaching the same
00:40:40
daily users. I think Blue Sky is doing fine. Well, I think I think what's happened is everything's gotten
00:40:46
dissipated in terms of social media and then certain So, there's just more there are more options,
00:40:52
right? Yeah. Depending on what or people not using it as much. My kids use Reddit. That's it. YouTube and Reddit.
00:40:57
That's the whole thing. That's the entire they don't participate in I've noticed I don't use social media as
00:41:03
much. I am having a love affair with Reddit. Reddit is great actually. I I you know I now I' had sort of been
00:41:10
led to Well, you know what's interesting is that Google sort of is giving me more Reddit threads in my searches than I'd
00:41:16
ever been getting. Interesting. Are you still using Google for search? Interesting. Um yeah, I'm not a I'm in a relationship
00:41:21
with a I I'm not even going to take that as shade, Cara. I You're in Chad GPT. I bet you do use.
00:41:27
No, I'm not. But, you know, I'm probably going to get there because I'm in a relationship with a man who is, you
00:41:34
know, I love a man who loves to chat GPT. But he is really good at it. And I'm
00:41:39
learning that you can't treat chat GPT like some any old Google search. You can't you can't you can't get cheap with
00:41:47
chat GPT. You got to whine and die in chat GPT. The prompt. The prompt. You got to talk to it. You got to make
00:41:54
love to chat GPT. Oh my god. You know, you got to really like give it what it wants to if you like it's like
00:42:01
you know what ain't nothing going on but the rent you know use what you got to get what you want. I just you got to you
00:42:07
got to get that GPT what it needs you know. Yeah. Do does he step out with any other
00:42:13
I mean he he's tried everything. Over to Claude. Over to Claude. Wait there's Claude.
00:42:19
Claude. Yes. Anthropic. Anthropics. Oh, no. Ask your man. My
00:42:24
man, my man is secretly out with Claude pretending to love chat GPT with me.
00:42:30
Claude, there's a lot. There's Claude is pretty good actually. Everyone, everyone is a different one. And then there's
00:42:36
Google Gemini. I just think my point is when I'm using when I'm using boring ass basic ass
00:42:42
Google. Well, Google is now Gemini really. The answer AI by the way. You've noticed
00:42:47
that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I have noticed that. And I don't like it. You know, a lot of the time you'll learn to like it.
00:42:53
Yeah. Even though it's not right. It's like rightish. It'll it'll get right. Okay. It'll get right. It'll get right.
00:42:58
Um but Reddit is the thing that that Google is now pushing me. Like it's near the top of a lot of my when I'm looking
00:43:05
for information. So I've I've become a Reddit person. Like I'll just go to Reddit now. There used to be a lot of heinous stuff
00:43:10
on there, but the people who are running it that's what kept me away. Something changed. Something changed. It did. It's it's you know what it is?
00:43:16
It's a consumption. I think Reddit is like YouTube. It's consumptive where you don't have to necessarily participate but it brings you all kinds of
00:43:22
interesting information if you curate it properly. And I know people have talked about it this way which is like it does remind me
00:43:28
of the past. Yeah. It seems somehow innocent and at the same time you know a lot of the people
00:43:34
there take it it it it is like the information is good like I have I have traveled
00:43:42
based I made travel decisions based on Reddit threads and you've gotten good results. Yeah, I've gotten good results. My sons
00:43:47
use it completely. Let me ask you about another cultural thing because it's this is all over Reddit and all over social
00:43:53
media. South Park has done it again. I have to say whatever these is in these people's drinks is working for them. The
00:43:59
third episode of the show current season continued to mock the Trump administration. An episode focused on federal takeover in DC. In the episode,
00:44:05
the president is mocked for accepting bribes from big tech CEOs. Sort of real to life. Once again is in
00:44:10
bed with Satan and yes still has a micro penis. Let's listen to a clip of Trump receiving gifts uh from a line of
00:44:16
suckups, including Tim Cook. Mr. President, you have so many great
00:44:24
ideas. Your leadership is truly beyond anything we have ever had in this
00:44:29
country. And you do not have a small penis. A thanks.
00:44:35
On behalf of the state of Florida, I'd like to give you this gift, a silverplated space shuttle.
00:44:41
Next. Mr. President, your ideas for the tech
00:44:48
industry are so innovative and you definitely do not have a small penis. A thank you.
00:44:55
Please accept this gift on behalf of Apple. Next,
00:45:03
so tell me what you think of um it also did take this latest episode also took some shots at chat GBT by the way. Um,
00:45:10
but we talk about with this show right now. Something is something's in there. Wedies or whatever the old
00:45:17
I think that the timing is really good. Mhm. Um, I think there's something about the
00:45:22
brute force of the South Park um, comedy ideology.
00:45:28
Um, I think the show didn't have to change to for us to come back to it.
00:45:35
What do you mean the brute force of the comedy ideology? explain that their their approach is really to just
00:45:43
name the thing, right? To just say the thing that it that that that
00:45:49
to make the subtextual textual. Um there's no line to you don't need to be
00:45:56
literate to watch the show if you know what I mean. Like you don't need to be visually literate and you don't need to really have a
00:46:02
great sort of sense of cultural literacy. you just have to basically know like have a gist of what's
00:46:09
happening. Um especially now but I mean these guys their genius is for
00:46:16
um I think that's part of their genius to sort of be declarative in as comedians um to not need to have
00:46:26
it's like the Easter egg is is an omelet on that show. Um,
00:46:34
you just see it. They just say it. It's just the thing that you they've cracked it open. You don't have to look
00:46:39
for it. You might not agree. Like the trans stuff, people complain about that. I just think they go after everybody,
00:46:44
right? I think that Well, that's the thing that like always sort of scared me about those guys. I mean, I'm doing I'm doing
00:46:50
an episode with somebody about my relationship with this show. And a lot
00:46:56
of what I'm a lot of where we're starting in this conversation is me sort
00:47:02
of thinking through how much the show scared me because it was forcing me to think um
00:47:11
differently about things that you know as a young person I thought I understood and here were people who were basically
00:47:18
my age who who were making fun of things that I didn't think you could make fun
00:47:23
of. Give me an example. Um Jesus.
00:47:29
Yeah, they do make fun of Jesus. I mean, I'm not a you know, I wasn't an extremely religious person, but I didn't have time. I wasn't thinking I mean, you
00:47:35
know, and I had lived this was I mean, I would consider South Park part of the culture war era of this of the country,
00:47:42
right? Um the the beginning of the show was happening at the end of the so-called culture wars, right?
00:47:47
Um and you know, I'm familiar with Andreas Serrano's Christ piss and Christopher's work and Madonna.
00:47:55
Um, and yet there was something about the the subversiveness of doing that
00:48:03
dismantling and undermining in the form of of of like crude children's animation. Right. Right.
00:48:09
It was actually the animation is so crude that it isn't it isn't for children cuz all the all the lines are
00:48:15
sharp. Right. All the lines on those drawings are sharp. Yeah. One of the things that's interesting about it is, you know, that
00:48:21
they can, not that they continue to push against Trump. They will push against anybody, I think. And obviously, the
00:48:26
tech leaders are perfect for that. I mean, they don't even have to mock them. That's exactly what Tim Cook said, you
00:48:32
know, when he was handing him the golden statue essentially or whatever the golden whatever the [ __ ] he handed him.
00:48:37
Um, it's just I think one of the things they do is, as you said, they are brutal. They're just they don't even have to make satire here, right? Because
00:48:45
everything is so ridiculous on some level. Well, I mean, I think that the the one thing that they have changed is
00:48:51
the calibration because, you know, when when South Park, Bigger, Longer, and
00:48:57
Uncut, the the the great truly great movie musical they made 26 years ago
00:49:02
came out, um there was a degree of subtlety happening there because, you
00:49:09
know, they were taking the satire of the sitcom and essentially overlaying it.
00:49:15
They were they were stretching it to fit a musical movie musical format. And so the movie is a legitimate musical while
00:49:23
also functioning as social and political satire. It's just that in 1999,
00:49:30
the culture was different. And so the thing that that people were upset about
00:49:35
was the way in which it depicted Satan and homosexuals and um and was having a
00:49:43
good time with these conflations. And I found that
00:49:50
that naughtiness to be really liberating in a way. I did too. I I was not offended.
00:49:55
interesting. No, I was I mean and I should have been an offended party as as a gay negro. Um
00:50:01
but I wasn't because I kind of understood the place that the comedy was coming from. Yeah.
00:50:06
And I think that in these in the the lifespan of this show, we've seen
00:50:12
our relationship to comedy change like 10 times. Yes. Well, you think about the Book of
00:50:17
Mormon, too, though, right? I mean, I loved that show so much. And oddly enough, I was there. I saw it several
00:50:24
times and it's there's a lot of offensive gay things in that, you know, but it's fun. But it's funny, but it's really funny. And I know it's
00:50:30
like don't pick on the gays. I'm like, it's okay a little bit to pick on like I mean the gays pick on the gays.
00:50:36
The gays pick on the gays. Let's be clear and other people in our in our meetings in our meetings when you're not there. Um but the the
00:50:42
Book of Mormon to me I was recommending someone see it even now because it's so I I actually may go back and see it
00:50:49
again. I'm going to go back actually because I think, you know, for the purposes of this thing that I'm doing, I'm going to go back and see it.
00:50:55
But one of the things is I was there once. It's still on Broadway. Still on Broadway with a bunch of Mormons went cuz they thought it was
00:51:02
funny. Certain Mormons think it's funny, too. And it's so insulting to Mormons. So, but it see it's it's interesting
00:51:08
that I don't think the Trump administration thinks this is funny because they have no sense of humor, right? this group of people are not
00:51:15
going to if they continue at it they may especially the micro penis part which is really funny which is what everybody
00:51:21
thinks of Donald Trump he has a microp penis that's what is you know I mean Cara I can see the tie
00:51:27
yeah that's correct um and you know the thing that like I
00:51:32
find scary I found scary about Trey Parker and Matt Stone as a kid was that they didn't seem to
00:51:40
have any allegiance to anything other than like their comedic version of the
00:51:46
truth and the joke. Is the joke funny? Um, and after that we don't care.
00:51:53
This is why I like them. You know, sometimes I had a real issue with Dave Chappelle because he I didn't mind his making jokes. I was like, "Do you need
00:51:59
to make an hour of them?" And some aren't funny. Like, make it funny. Like the other in at Easter in San Francisco
00:52:05
near my house, they have Hot Jesus. Have you ever been to the Hot Jesus contest? I mean, it's fantastic. Hello. But it's
00:52:11
like someone's like, "Oh, it's sacri." I'm like, "No, it's funny." It's like, if it's not funny, then why do it? And
00:52:17
that's what I I like. But Jesus, come on. Like, I mean, but again, like I think that the the return
00:52:24
of this show has been really useful to remind us. I mean, because we've had
00:52:29
more fights about whether comedy can be comedy in the last I mean, this has been going
00:52:35
on since 911, honestly. Like, what can be funny? what what are
00:52:40
we allowed to laugh at? When can we laugh, right? Um what now is comedy is really about
00:52:47
like who the comedian is, right? And the the thing about having South Park back is nobody's changed. It's not
00:52:54
like in just like that where Carrie, Miranda, and Charlotte are now no longer 28 to 34. They're in their mid50s.
00:53:02
They're like mid to late 50s and figuring out how the world works. The
00:53:07
world has changed, but the people in South Park have not. Have not. That's exactly right. And it's still funny. Anyway,
00:53:13
and it's still funny. All right, let's go on a quick break. When we come back, we'll talk about the latest to join the podcast game, Taylor
00:53:19
Swift. Here we are with Wesley. We're back with more news. Last week, Taylor Swift went on her boyfriend Travis
00:53:25
Kelce's podcast to announce her newest album. Uh, as usual, she broke the internet. The episode had 1.3 million
00:53:31
live viewers, which is almost double the audience that tuned in to see Donald Trump on Joe Rogan. At the time of the taping, the episode has 20 million
00:53:37
YouTube views in total. Meanwhile, Spotify reported the episode has become one of the past year's highest performing within just one day of
00:53:43
release. Increased female viewership of the shows by 600%. Not a surprise. Um
00:53:49
600%. 600%. Godamn. I know. I know. I guess the dudes were watching that. Um talk
00:53:55
about um uh that she can do whatever it wants. I mean, of course, Donald Trump is saying she's not
00:54:01
hot anymore. She's still hot. She still remains as hot. I'm sorry. Can we pause for a moment? What did he mean she's not hot anymore?
00:54:07
I don't know cuz she is hot. She looked beautiful on that. Does he mean Did he mean it like that or
00:54:13
she's not like No, she's no longer the thing. She's not I'm like she's still talking about Exactly.
00:54:18
This man I mean I can't talk about big Thai energy. I just can't do it. I just
00:54:24
won't do it. Yeah. Exactly. So, what do you think about this? Mom's tie energy. Is that what it is? Mom's tie energy. I
00:54:31
first of all I found it interesting that that that she basically was using it to
00:54:38
she was using this appearance to announce an album essentially. Right. Yes. Exactly. It wasn't as though this show needed it.
00:54:45
You know, there are shows that would love to have Taylor Swift come on for the numbers. This this didn't feel like
00:54:50
a numbers play to me. No. Um it felt like she was trying something
00:54:55
out. I mean, she kind of said it herself on the in the on the episode. Um, but I think that, you know, I mean,
00:55:02
this is a show that has Adam Sandler come on, Brad Pitt's been on it. Yeah. Like, it's not it's not like they it's
00:55:09
not a desert for celebrity guests, right? Um, so having her come on, it felt kind of
00:55:16
sweet and and to the extent that like a thing that turns into an album announce
00:55:23
album release announcement can be can be sweet, pure, and innocent. This felt a lot like that. it sort of listening to
00:55:31
the show, the two of them, you know, the brothers Travis and Jason Kelsey, you
00:55:36
know, who have these like they have like very different um off the show lives and
00:55:42
to bring their different personalities and energies into the show is is often
00:55:49
fun. It it really does feel like two brothers. They have a nice relationship. They they have a good relationship, but it's it
00:55:55
was interesting watching Jason try to drive this particular episode. Oh, cuz all Taylor, right? Yes. Right.
00:56:04
Famous girlfriend. Well, but also the way that that Travis Kelce is just hype manning her pretty
00:56:13
much the entire conversation. Um that was it was just interesting seeing the
00:56:18
show dynamics change around this the arrival of this person right that must be like that outside
00:56:25
right she's got to suck up all the energy doesn't I've heard that that happens I've heard that even if she doesn't try she can't help
00:56:32
it right because one of the things I thought about the show is again like Sarah Jessica Parker different but she
00:56:38
poundfor pound she's really entertaining like she's really like you want you can't stop watching her and I don't know
00:56:43
why that is right and so wherever ever she appears and she even sings about it, right? You know, my daughter was dancing
00:56:49
to anti-hero the other day. I don't know why she's so attractive to people, which
00:56:55
is especially women. Um that that it was a completely pleasurable experience watching it in a way that was very
00:57:02
satisfying. I thought I don't know, maybe not for others. No, I I listened to but I didn't watch
00:57:07
it. I watched it like a tiny little bit, but I listened to You got to watch it because she leans into Anyway, go ahead. Oh, no. I I I mean I I can I was allowed
00:57:14
to imagine it, right? Um I find uh
00:57:20
I don't know it she it's interesting. She's an interesting physical presence.
00:57:26
Um and I kind of like her better in my imagination if that makes sense. Yeah.
00:57:32
Um, you know, I like one of the I have a real It was interesting listening to her talk about listening to the three of
00:57:39
them talk about the tour in their different ways and you know the way that
00:57:45
that I mean I had forgotten the entire story of the relationship, right? Like I mean he was at the show and was like I I
00:57:52
got to know who this person is. I mean you know he's the luckiest fan in the world. We all know this. um he gets to
00:57:59
go home with the thing that he went to the show to see and she seems happy with that. Um, I think that she the way she
00:58:08
talked about that show was interesting to me in that I had a lot of I had a lot
00:58:15
of wonder. I have a lot of wonder about what these tours are like for the artists. And
00:58:22
um you know unlike the Beyonce concert documentary of her Renaissance tour, the
00:58:29
ERS tour film didn't have a lot of backstage stuff. It didn't. You're right.
00:58:35
Um she wanted to sort of preserve the magic of of the live experience. Whereas
00:58:41
the Beyonce film to me was fascinating because she wanted to kind of enhance
00:58:47
the mythology of the achievement of the live experience um by humanizing the
00:58:53
person who becomes someone else on stage. Yes. Um and so it was great listening to her
00:58:59
talk. I mean, you know, it was enlightening hearing Taylor Swift talk about toe spacers and all of the the physical toll that
00:59:06
she does that. If you look at that, I would encourage you to go back and watch Miss Americana again. That gives you an
00:59:12
enormous insight into her. Watch it now when she's famous because at the time she was on a down swing, right? During
00:59:19
Yeah. It was when it was around the time that reputation was being rebuffed in the world. Or there's another show of where she's
00:59:25
in someone's house where they're singing all country songs. She's with two of her and they're just talking about the songs. I mean, I think
00:59:32
she's quite accessible and yet unknowable in a lot of ways. And I felt like this was, you know, but she's you
00:59:39
do know a lot about her in a weird way. And I think she may be just like this, right? There's certain people who are I
00:59:47
always saying does the does a drunk agree with the sober is an expression. You know when people are drunk they're
00:59:52
different when they're sober. Yes. Um I think sometimes you meet certain people who are exactly the way they are
00:59:58
in p private and public and then there's some that are quite different you know like a Johnny Carson
01:00:04
would be the perfect example like shy and kind of oh yeah you would be disappointed to meet him in person because you're not
01:00:10
getting pretty much like this. I think she's lived in fame for so long. This is what she is.
01:00:17
Um, I would agree with that. I also, but there's something about Yes. I mean, I
01:00:25
think that the thing that I loved about this conversation was how seriously she
01:00:31
was taking it in some way. Yeah. Like she wasn't there to do all the joshing that the brothers were trying to
01:00:37
do, right? And so like there'd be Jason would ask a question and she'd be in the middle of answering it.
01:00:43
Travis Kelsey would kind of interrupt and then they would start doing their brother thing and she would not even
01:00:48
acknowledge that that was happening and she would continue giving her answer. And that was to me
01:00:55
I just felt like she was happy to have this opportunity to just think through
01:01:03
herself um in a in a safe space, right? in a place where she wasn't going to be asked a
01:01:09
follow-up question basically. Right. Exactly. Listen, all the the results are the results. People are
01:01:14
still thrilled with her, which is really interesting. We'll see how this album does. But what we'll see how this album does? What
01:01:21
do you think is going to happen to this album, Carrie? It's going to be huge. Like, nobody's going to Nobody's going to care. Yeah, but how can you top yourself if
01:01:28
you're this woman? That's the difficulty of being Taylor Swift. I I will never forget my night at the
01:01:33
era tour. I truly will never forget it. Me neither. It was one of the most special
01:01:39
communal experiences I've had. I've had a lot of special communal experiences. This is definitely in my top 50.
01:01:46
And I think one of the things that was special about it was one of the things that she kind of wanted to unpack a
01:01:52
little bit, which is like the toll that it took on her body. And you can really, you know, after two and a half hours.
01:01:58
Cara, I watched this show. Yeah. Exhausted. Well, I was fine, but I
01:02:04
was s I was watching it with a friend in front of three,
01:02:10
I don't know, 13 to 15year-old girls and for the first hour of this show,
01:02:16
which really annoyed me because Lover is the opening album and I I'm a I'm mostly
01:02:22
a Lover person. I it's not my favorite Killer Swift album, but I do really There's some great songs on that album.
01:02:28
And these girls were screaming for like an hour just screaming. Just screaming.
01:02:33
It didn't matter what. They just screamed the entire first hour of that show.
01:02:38
And I I just turn I couldn't. But and also like the part of me that is like
01:02:43
like wanted to turn around and give him like the dirtiest look I possibly could. I was like, "Dan, don't do that."
01:02:48
Yeah. You're not supposed to be here, Wesley. Yes, people. This show is for them. It's
01:02:53
not for you. Don't do old man them. Just stand there and take it. But Cara,
01:02:59
at like hour 107. Mhm. Or sorry, hour 107. At minute 107,
01:03:05
when Taylor's still going strong, guess who is passed out on the seats behind me? The kids. The kids are out.
01:03:12
They don't have the stamina of this 35year-old woman. No. No. She's the She is the bomb.
01:03:18
It's crazy. She wiped these girls out. Yep. And she did it night after night.
01:03:23
The same thing with podcasting. She did the same thing. But I think what I'm saying about the limitations are the only limitation to
01:03:30
me is that I think it keeps her from doing something that I think is really
01:03:35
critical for for like artistic growth in some way, which is to like be
01:03:41
reinterpreting yourself. Yes. She doesn't want to. I I mean I mean
01:03:46
like just the act of re-recording those songs she basically does it. I mean I think the original recordings
01:03:52
are the important artistic document. The important historical and political document are the re-recordings. 100%.
01:04:00
Like one of the greatest things a pop star has ever done is re-record the old
01:04:05
material. That's correct. It's not artistically as good um to me. She thinks it's better in some
01:04:11
ways. her singing is better, but I didn't. That's not what I'm showing up for. Yeah, I agree. But let me just tell you,
01:04:16
Taylor Swift does as she damn well pleases. That's all I understand. We have to go. News flash. And she's going to continue
01:04:23
to do so. Um, all right, Wesley, one more quick break. We'll be back for predictions.
01:04:28
Oh, okay. Wesley, let's hear a prediction. Uh, anything you want. Anything you
01:04:35
want. I'm really thinking about another thing I want to I'm going to do
01:04:40
an Adam Sandler episode. Okay. I love Adam Sandler. I'm sorry. I'm not I'm not against this.
01:04:47
And um I am just obsessed with these directors trying to win this man an
01:04:53
Oscar. Oh, because they're trying the serious ones. Just everybody wants to try to win
01:04:58
like the the murderers row of people who have tried to win this man an Academy Award.
01:05:04
Mhm. Is just y'all need to just stop it. Why? Just stop.
01:05:09
Why stop? Because when you stop trying, it will happen. I mean, I don't know. I just So,
01:05:16
there's this Noah Bombach movie coming out um toward the end of the year that he is in. And you know, I really enjoy
01:05:23
Noah Bombach. I enjoy Adam Sandler. Um, this isn't even my favorite Adam Sandler
01:05:29
mode. I can't I won't even get into it here, but like I think I believe for a
01:05:35
lot of reasons the the the stars will align for Adam Sandler to at least go to
01:05:40
the Academy Awards with his name on a list. I Okay, that's a prediction. That's what you predict. And you you
01:05:45
know he's done a lot of I mean remember Spanglish in 2004. I just watched the sandwich scene from that movie.
01:05:51
So it's such a good movie at Pause. It was amazing. I love Taylor. The lighting in that movie. The reason I
01:05:56
can't really go back and keep watching it is it's some of the worst lighting I've ever seen in a movie.
01:06:02
Just truly bizarre. Like it's all lit from above with fluorescents.
01:06:07
Nobody looks good in the indoor scene. Tony always looks good in Las Vegas. She's mostly outside. You'll notice
01:06:14
Taleone is mostly outside in this movie. She's got like three indoor scenes.
01:06:19
Everybody else is inside. Oh, okay. Anyway, I think he's probably he's not a bad thing because he is actually
01:06:24
every now and then you see very good acting even though he knows that he he like you know a little like Jerry
01:06:31
Lewis. Can you do that again? There's a really good SNL skit where he visits his relatives and they're like I
01:06:37
think you're taking my character and they they're all his cousins and they all it's really great actually. Um, but
01:06:43
he's um I think he's he's like Jerry Lewis to me. And Jerry Lewis, I think was a fascinating actor in some
01:06:50
Yes. He's a he's more interesting to me than Well, no, that's not true. I mean, Jerry Lewis peaked at his peak.
01:06:57
They're comparable. Jerry Lewis has more cocaine in in him.
01:07:02
Um, and Adam Sandler is more weed. Oh, yeah. Or beer. I don't know. I mean, but there
01:07:09
if there's a drug if there's a drug that if if like what is their drug or what is
01:07:14
the drug that personifies them? Jerry Lewis is hands down cocaine. Cocaine.
01:07:20
What's a speedball? Speedball. Cannonball. He Well, I mean like if the speed like
01:07:26
maybe it's a speedball that's Jerry Lewis. Yeah, speedball. That's true. Who knows? Or a drink or martini. Just a No, that
01:07:33
would be Dean. That's Dean. That's Dean. That's Dean. You're right. Rodeo dodo. Um, anyway, I I So, you predict he's
01:07:39
going to get an Oscar. You predict? Nomination. Let's not go crazy, Carol. Okay. All right. Because who's gonna
01:07:44
like hip check him? What does he have to do? Because he's been in some serious movies. He has. Yeah. But that's not enough. You really
01:07:51
I mean, like truly, do I think he should have been? I mean, it just hasn't happened because it doesn't needed to
01:07:57
happen. You know why? Because he does Happy Gilmore 2. That's why. Even if it's high. I think the thing that makes him great
01:08:02
is that he doesn't want it. Like he the thing that makes him great is that he's doing Happy Gilmore, too. Yeah, he is.
01:08:07
Like he this is a person who really enjoys himself.
01:08:13
I miss weird Adam Sandler. And that's I won't get like that's the thing I really was going to try to get into, but I'm
01:08:18
not going to do it. You will have to come back for the Adam Sandler episode that'll mostly be about none of the
01:08:24
things we are talking about, but this other mode of Adam Sandler that I All right. I can't wait to listen to it. Well, this has been great. Um, we want
01:08:31
to hear from you. Just send us your questions about business and tech or whatever's on your mind. Go to nymag.com/pivot to send a question for the show or call
01:08:38
85551 pivot. Okay, that's the show. Wesley, you're wonderful.
01:08:43
I can't believe I got to like spend 75 minutes talking to you. Oh, come on. You can hang out with me in
01:08:49
real life. I know. I know. People can listen to Cannonball or Parlando, whatever you want to call it.
01:08:55
Cannonball. It's not called Parlando. You got to be real clear about that. Parlando. I'm in my head. I'm going to
01:09:01
think parlay though. Well, fine. But it's it's cannonball wherever they get their podcasts. Um
01:09:07
you're and you're on YouTube as well. Even though you don't like it, you got a nice shine up. You look great. Thank you.
01:09:13
You look really all the all the times when some of them less I'm not going to say anything about Ross Doo had at all.
01:09:18
Anyway, I think you just said it. I just did say it. You there's no shining possible for that man. Anyway,
01:09:24
he's got other attributes. I don't know. Okay, sure. Why not? Okay. I'm not Don't
01:09:30
make me insult him. I have a name for him and everything else. Anyway, I do. I'm not going to tell it to you on the
01:09:35
show. I'm not going to do it, but ask Amanda. She knows. She knows. She's She's named him. Okay. Uh, thanks for
01:09:41
listening to Pivot and be sure to subscribe to our YouTube channel. Also, we'll be back next week. And please
01:09:47
listen to Cannonball. It's a great show. Thank you. Wesley is a very precient person on all
01:09:52
things culture. You always make me think and I really appreciate that on lots of ways. In ways I didn't think I would
01:09:58
think about, but Gotcha. Thank you. Anyway, I will read us out. Today's show is produced by Larara Neon.
01:10:04
Zoe Marcus, Taylor Griffin, and Kevin Oliver. Ernie Enderdott engineered this episode. Jim Mle edited this video.
01:10:10
Nishot Kura is Vox Media's executive producer of podcast. Make sure to follow Pivot on your favorite podcast platform.
01:10:17
Thanks for listening to Pivot from New York Magazine and Vox Media. You can subscribe to the magazine at nymag.com/pod.
01:10:23
We'll be back next week for another breakdown of all things tech and business. The days to Scott are ticking
01:10:28
away. But Wes, I really appreciate you being here. [Music]
