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Hi everyone, this is Pivot from New York
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Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast
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Network. I'm Cara Swisser. Today we've
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got a special bonus episode and it's not
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about anything terrifying or depressing.
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It's about the most addictive,
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delightful, surprise cultural phenomena
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of the decade, heated rivalry. I'm
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joined today by the show's creator,
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Jacob Tierney, and executive producer
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Brendan Brady. Uh, welcome you two. You
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guys are in mood already. I already
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>> Thanks, Cara.
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>> We've been beset by some tech issues,
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but nonetheless, the gays will prevail.
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Um, the success of the show is about so
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many things. Queer joy, uh, uh, sex,
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inclusion. It's amazing business story,
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and that's really what I wanted to talk
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about. Um, but first for the fans, are
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we getting a standalone episode before
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season 2?
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>> Um, I love saying now this is Brendan.
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So, um, uh, I would say that like much
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like the best parts of this show, just
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enjoy the year.
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>> Enjoy the year. Is that on your t-shirt?
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>> Oh, no. Soon. Trademark. Trademark. We
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trademarked it.
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>> Yeah. Okay. Because that means no.
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That's a no.
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>> That's We'll see here. This is Jacob
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speaking now. Uh, that's a here's the
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here's the truth and that nobody
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actually wants to hear is that we just
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don't know yet. We are, you know, we we
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actually only finished this show
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basically a week before episode 6 aired
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and so this has been a a massive uh
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surprise and endeavor and endeavor and
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we didn't really have a moment to catch
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our breaths before answering questions
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like this. So the truth is we're getting
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a plan in place. We will have more
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information for folks soon. Uh we
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understand that there's an appetite for
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a lot of this and we're just trying to
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figure out what we can physically
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accomplish in in in the next year
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>> in the next year. So one thing this show
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has been a giant PR boost to the entire
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your entire country. Here's Prime
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Minister Mark Carney at a recent media
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event. You had to speaking of Feel the
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Year, but go ahead.
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>> The world knows that Shane and Ilia are
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rising hockey stars who fall for each
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other as they face off in one of the
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greatest rivalries the game has ever
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known.
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But they're also two young men who are
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terrified of being their fullest self.
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And we live in an increasingly
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dangerous, divided, and intolerant
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world. A fundamental Canadian value is
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that people should be able to be whoever
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they want to be, to love whoever they
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want to love. So uh the narrative has
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become that it was a little show out of
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Canada obviously made in Canada because
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American disturbers were afraid of the
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sex content. Why don't you start Jacob
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the reaction first of all and the kind
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of what you think is happening here from
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I mean I'm sure you've answered this
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question but he sort of articulates it
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rather well is that people are are upset
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and divided and this brings a respit but
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I think it's more than that in my in my
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opinion but why don't you start Jacob
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then you Brendan
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>> I mean I think that there's I I think
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that what the show did
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in an in a kind of an unpreachy un
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trying to teach you a lesson way is just
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present queer joy. And I think that
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that's its soft power. You know, that's
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the thing that I think people are
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surprised by and and that that is hit
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people, at least from what what I'm
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getting. And I think that while there
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are queer stories out there, I don't
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think there's a lot of joy. And I don't
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think that the the the the kind of
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profound joy that you only find in
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romance really that kind of
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heartfilling,
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fantasy fulfilling, desireful things
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that that you get to see don't happen to
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queer people in media. And I think that
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that is the kind of whoosh of it all,
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>> especially men. There's a lot of lesbian
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content out there. I can tell you the L
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word.
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>> I think especially men. And I and I
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think that um yeah, we just don't to
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have a story that chooses to not and you
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know there are obviously
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our queer lives are filled with trauma
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and and I get that and we I think we all
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know that but I think that this this
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show's desire to not focus on that to
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focus on other parts of the queer
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experience as fantasy and I fully admit
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it's a romance. It's from a romance
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romance. um that that I think that
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that's the partly the reaction to it. Um
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there's a lot I don't pretend I can
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explain, but I do that it is that
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>> that is kind of that's the big
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difference.
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>> Yeah, it's different experience for gay
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people versus straight people, I think.
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And because I was always waiting for the
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hit.
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>> Yeah. I think we all are. And I think
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especially because they have sex so
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early and we are trained that if we have
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sex, we will be punished. So if we can
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not have sex, we might be able to be
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happy. But we can't do both. You don't
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get to have a sex life and be happy. If
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you want to have a sex life, get ready
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to die. And if you want to be happy, get
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ready to not have sex.
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>> I I think like the other part of this uh
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which Jacob has talked about a lot and
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it was kind of how we were pitching this
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when we were going out to people, which
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is this is a story written by women and
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it's consumed primarily by women and we
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don't take female uh desire and stories
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seriously in media a lot of the times.
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Um, I think a show uh like this that
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came out of nowhere is kind of we were
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when we were pitching it, we were really
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crossing our fingers hoping that we were
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right. We were like there is a built-in
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audience there. The these books are
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consumed. So there's so many readers of
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all types of romance novels. They're
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there and they are yearning for uh for
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these stories to be told. So, I think
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that was the other like secret sauce in
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this is just like this is a massive fan
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base that have not had their stories
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taken seriously and they got to see it
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taken seriously and they loved it.
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>> We'll talk about that because romance I
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always say everyone's like why it's so
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popular. I'm like it's a romance novel.
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It's from romance novels are pop. It's
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one of those genres that people don't
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realize how big it is, how big
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>> and genre it's been around since the
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dawn of time. Like it's as old as a
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detective story, you know? It's as old
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as all of like romance is there would
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have been a time when when Jane Austin
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would have been considered romance. I
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mean that's these are and it's
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dismissed.
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>> I think to Brendan's point, it's
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dismissed despite the fact that it it
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the romance genre carries the publishing
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industry in terms of fiction.
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>> Um and I think it's dismissed because um
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of the misogyny that we all endlessly
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live with because it's something that
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appeals to women, is often written by
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women and consumed by women. And so why
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would any I've said this before I was
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like if this show was about a boy with a
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gun somebody would have optioned this
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book 10 years ago you know
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>> well a hockey player with a gun
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>> anyway talk about this but getting it
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made like we talked on this success on
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on on what it symbolizes the difference
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between Canada and the US though even
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how these productions are funded um let
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me talk about this idea of was made in
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Canada because American distributors and
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let me play very quickly a part Mark
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Carney's speech about that and how it
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was funded
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>> on behalf of Canada's new government.
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Look, I'm a politician. I'm not above
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taking credit for the Canadian funding
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that helped you share this story with
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the world. I might not have been here
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when the decision was made, but I'm here
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now. So, uh, yeah, I made I green lit
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this thing. I stood up to the Americans.
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>> Oh, that's amazing.
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>> That was an amazing speech.
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>> Yeah. So I I think that um like you know
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this speech that he gave was at an event
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uh called prime time which is hosted by
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the producers uh Canadian producer of
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media association like the Canadian
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version of the PGA and the point of this
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was to raise awareness of what's going
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on in our industry because uh the
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entertainment landscape is under attack
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right now. We've been trying to update
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our systems. Um, and because of Koosma,
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because of uh the US's um, you know,
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wanting to come in and tell us how to
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run our country and how our cultural
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sector needs to be dictated. There's a
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lot of concern about whether or not
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we're going to have a system in place
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that has cultural sovereignty for
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Canada. And so for us, what was so
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amazing about this experience and
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getting to see Mark Carney there is our
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show was made in the Canadian system and
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it is very different from the US. We
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>> Well, explain it. Explain it for people
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who don't understand.
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>> So basically the Canadian uh film and TV
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system has subsidies and equity and
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grant systems that are propped up by the
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Canadian government. So we, you know,
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when you go to a broadcaster like we did
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with Crave, which is the streaming
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platform in Canada that um commissioned
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the show, uh they go and say, "Okay,
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great. Here is a license fee."
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Typically, it'll run between 20 to 30%
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of the budget. Then we have a tax
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credit, both provincial and federal, and
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that brings another 20 to 30% of the
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budget. And then it's always that last
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little piece that you're looking for,
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right? So the benefit to us in uh Canada
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as producers is it's unfortunate that we
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don't get necessarily the whole budget
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out of our uh broadcasters but we as the
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producers own all the underlying IP.
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>> So that is a big
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>> you don't sell it to a studio
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in the system
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>> but the the you know the limitations on
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that are you have to go then raise
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money. So, how we did this with our show
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is we ended up talking to a couple of uh
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studios, some of them American, some of
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them Canadian, and ultimately it wasn't
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the right fit from a creative
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perspective. And, you know, we've we
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understand where everybody was coming
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from. It is a this was, you know, on
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paper didn't seem like a an amazing
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massive hit right out the gate. Um, and
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so luckily when we were going through
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this process, uh, Crave's parent
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company, which is Bell Media, Bell Media
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is like if Comcast and Disney were
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merged into one in our country. They own
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everything from telecommunications to
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internet to sports
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>> and they have divisions like Craig,
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which is
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their only streaming platform. They have
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others, right? Yes, it's their only
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streaming platform.
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>> So, it's like a Disney Hulu or whatever.
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>> Exactly. But they're also it's like and
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and they have CTV which is their ABC. So
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they have a terrestrial they have a
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terrestrial channel and they have
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streaming.
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>> They have cable channels, they have a
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streaming platform. Um and they had just
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acquired a distribution company called
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Sphere Abacus uh out of the UK. And so
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we were looking for that last 30% of the
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budget and um they came in for 20 more%
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on a distribution advance. So the last
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10% was Jacob and I putting our producer
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fees and we put in almost all of our
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producer fees less what we had to keep
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back because you still have to pay for
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taxes. So it was a big gamble for us but
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ultimately I can I
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>> So what you would have earned for this
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the fees that are standard right when
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you when you what was the total budget
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here?
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>> So we were just under 3 million Canadian
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an episode.
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>> Amazing. That's pretty low. Which is
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what
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>> I don't know if you know what a big deal
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this is, but Brendan is telling the
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truth.
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>> Yeah, we've been
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>> Cara Swisser gets
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>> She gets the truth. This is exclusive.
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>> So, we were uh we were just under three
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uh per episode
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>> per episode Canadian,
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>> right? Because it looks great, by the
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way. It didn't look on the cheap or
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anything else cuz
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>> that's also that speaks to Jacob and his
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amazing abilities. He's directed over a
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100 episodes of television. So he knows
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what he's doing and also speaks to a way
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in which we like to work uh which we
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feel really is is different than the US
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system or typical
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>> is an enormously low amount of for
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people who don't know it's it's very low
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for a reg television shows I mean the
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salary
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>> it's low for a sitcom it's deeply low
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for a 1-hour drama. Yeah.
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>> Deeply low for most those are the
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salaries of certain people depending.
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So, um, talk, you know, obviously these
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were not well-known people, but still
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it's still an expensive thing. I think
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most US ones, I feel like 10 million is
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the lowest they make, right?
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>> It can, it depends. It's like between
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six to four to$10 million an episode US
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is typical. Uh, depending on what your
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level is, but yeah, I mean, costs have
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really skyrocketed over the last decade.
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>> Is it less expensive to make this in
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Canada from a production perspective?
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>> No, we have an efficient model. Um, and
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I mean, yes, it is because we don't have
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the same level of money that is being
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thrown around. So, we by necessity have
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to spend less. Um, but we also like did
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something here where we shot all six
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episodes in 36 days. Jacob shot shot
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Jacob directed all six of them. We block
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shot them like one giant movie. Um, we
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talk about this when studios, especially
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US studios, come and say, "How do you
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guys do this?" And we go, "It's crazy."
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You have all of your episodes written
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before you go into prep. And that's
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typically when we lose people and they
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don't understand,
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>> right? Because they write it through.
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They although that's changing in the US
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actually.
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>> It's crazy to do it the other way. It's
00:13:29
especially when you're not doing 22
00:13:30
episodes anymore. Like back in the old
00:13:31
model when you're doing this volume of
00:13:33
episodes where it's not possible to have
00:13:34
them all ready.
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>> Well, you have writers on staff.
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>> Well, you have to just be writing all
00:13:38
the time. But if you're doing if the new
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model is 8 to 10 episodes, there's
00:13:41
almost no reason why this can't be
00:13:43
accomplished before you start shooting.
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So, you start shooting. Go ahead. Go
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ahead.
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>> Yeah, we start shooting and then we do
00:13:48
10-hour shoot days primarily. Like, I'm
00:13:50
not going to say it's not every day, but
00:13:52
we try to keep our hours low. And
00:13:55
there's a couple of reasons for this. A,
00:13:57
as soon as you get into 12, 13 hours
00:13:59
with crews, you end up paying for an
00:14:02
additional day by virtue of the
00:14:03
overtime. Uh, but we also just feel that
00:14:06
like, you know, my wife is an assistant
00:14:09
costume designer. She was the assistant
00:14:10
costume designer on this show. She's 5
00:14:12
months pregnant. Uh the departments that
00:14:16
Thank you. The departments that get
00:14:18
hooped are hair, makeup, wardrobe with
00:14:20
these precalls a lot of the time. Who
00:14:23
are those departments run by? Primarily
00:14:25
women. And so we also just feel that
00:14:28
like there in our business we need to
00:14:30
change this mentality of endlessly
00:14:32
shooting 15 16 hour days which is where
00:14:35
the costs balloon.
00:14:37
>> Right. Right. What are you a lesbian?
00:14:38
What's happening here? Anyway, so but
00:14:40
but Jacob talk about your production
00:14:42
style. you you besides being you know
00:14:44
truncated like making it tight you keep
00:14:46
it keep it tight kind of thing you call
00:14:48
it anti-fascist explain what you mean by
00:14:51
that
00:14:52
>> well I mean I guess what I what I mean
00:14:56
about that is there's a desire often for
00:15:00
perfection that is I think not only
00:15:04
unachievable but also uh insane and
00:15:08
cruel to be even attempting. There's no
00:15:10
reason to do if you're doing 25 takes of
00:15:12
a scene because you don't like the
00:15:13
performance of the actor. I I'm an
00:15:15
actor. I've been doing this since I was
00:15:16
four years old. The problem is the
00:15:17
scene. It's not the actor. You haven't
00:15:19
written it properly. If you're not
00:15:20
accomplishing what you need to
00:15:21
accomplish, there's a fundamental issue.
00:15:23
And by torturing people into repeating
00:15:25
and repeating and repeating, I don't
00:15:27
know what you're gaining. And so that's
00:15:29
kind of
00:15:30
>> I just did I just did a it was all day.
00:15:32
I was like, why? I kept saying why is it
00:15:35
all day?
00:15:35
>> To do nine different sizes on a closeup
00:15:37
is insane. All of this stuff is crazy.
00:15:39
It's just like it doesn't add to
00:15:41
anything except exhaustion and to
00:15:43
overworking people. I would and what I
00:15:46
like to say is I would rather be
00:15:47
surprised by an offering from an actor
00:15:50
than control every last aspect of their
00:15:52
performance. And I've used the a scene
00:15:54
as an example like on the day when we
00:15:56
were shooting. There's a scene in the
00:15:58
sixth episode in the cottage after the
00:16:00
boys have been caught by Shane's dad
00:16:02
where Hudson and Connor have a scene
00:16:04
together and they essentially he decides
00:16:06
that he's going to go talk to his
00:16:07
parents. Ilia's going to come with him.
00:16:09
And when we were shooting it, I thought
00:16:12
I I wasn't convinced that I was going to
00:16:14
use what Hudson was doing in that scene.
00:16:16
I thought it might be too much. He was
00:16:17
reacting. He had a big reaction which is
00:16:20
interesting for Hudson because he's a
00:16:21
very internal actor especially when he's
00:16:22
playing Shane and I didn't say anything
00:16:24
and I just kind of watched it and I was
00:16:26
like this is interesting. I think I can
00:16:27
cut around this. I think I can figure
00:16:29
out how to get what I want out of this
00:16:31
scene. And then when I got to the
00:16:33
editing room and my editor put the scene
00:16:34
together, she loved what he had done.
00:16:38
And I looked at it again with new eyes
00:16:39
and I was like, "Oh, I actually love
00:16:41
this too." And I'm so glad I didn't
00:16:43
insist on some idea that I had in my
00:16:45
head because what he brought to the
00:16:47
table was more interesting and it was
00:16:49
surprising and it was full of life and
00:16:51
it wasn't part of some insane jigsaw
00:16:54
plan that I had in my head that needs to
00:16:56
fit together or everything falls apart.
00:16:59
>> And I
00:16:59
>> Well, it's a different way of creating,
00:17:00
right?
00:17:01
>> It is a different way of creating, but
00:17:02
also I I do believe fundamentally that
00:17:04
film and TV is an ensemble process. It
00:17:06
is. Otherwise, go write a book, you
00:17:08
know, go paint a picture. There's lots
00:17:09
of ways to be in total control, but as
00:17:11
soon as you invite other talents in, as
00:17:14
soon as you invite, you're in a medium
00:17:16
in which that is a part of how it's
00:17:17
going to have to happen to ask these
00:17:20
brilliant people to work with you and
00:17:21
then not listen to them or not use their
00:17:23
skill.
00:17:23
>> Although that's sort of the director
00:17:25
genre, right? Like the director gets to
00:17:27
run everything gets to run.
00:17:28
>> And I think it's a crazy system, you
00:17:30
know, like I want to work with talented
00:17:32
people and I want to what are they doing
00:17:34
here if I'm not going to listen to them?
00:17:35
if I'm not going to incorporate their
00:17:36
ideas, if I'm not going to incorporate
00:17:38
what makes them so talented, why I
00:17:40
wanted to work with them in the first
00:17:41
place. And so, you know, anti-fascist
00:17:44
might be a big statement, but it is kind
00:17:45
of it's a rejection of an idea that
00:17:47
everything has to come from one person
00:17:49
and like what you know, the the
00:17:51
brilliant idea is very top.
00:17:53
>> Yeah, I've had I've had very little
00:17:55
experience, but I've been on several
00:17:56
sets. I mean, the idea of somebody
00:17:58
taking your cell phone from you when you
00:18:00
get to work because they want you
00:18:02
focused on their art is so pardon, my
00:18:05
friend. So [ __ ] male and boring and
00:18:07
stupid to me. Why does the girl can't he
00:18:09
can't text his wife about dinner because
00:18:12
your genius extends that? I It's just
00:18:14
exhausting. It's
00:18:15
>> Yeah. Yeah. It's also long. It's long.
00:18:18
>> It's torture.
00:18:19
>> I I kept saying to people, I got things
00:18:20
to do. This is a job. So when you talk
00:18:24
about owning this intellectual property,
00:18:25
what does that mean now for you all?
00:18:28
Because I own all my intellectual
00:18:29
property just so you know and I think
00:18:31
it's important. Explain why it is for
00:18:33
you especially in this space because
00:18:34
that's something that's been an anathema
00:18:36
to the industry. Well, I'll tell you
00:18:38
what it means is like Jacob and I uh you
00:18:41
know worked on a show called Letter
00:18:43
Kenny and Shy and the producers of that
00:18:45
show made it in Canada as well and they
00:18:48
had a robust merchandise business and
00:18:51
when we were in post-prouction we
00:18:53
decided because we have we you know
00:18:56
retained all the intellectual property
00:18:57
behind the series that we wanted to take
00:19:00
advantage of that and make a line of
00:19:02
merchandise which we're doing which is
00:19:04
now incredibly uh like it's It's become
00:19:07
this amazing part of our business that
00:19:09
we're super excited about. But it also
00:19:12
means that ultimately like when we we
00:19:15
made the decision to reinvest our fees,
00:19:18
it was because we knew that if this goes
00:19:20
really well, we're going to benefit for
00:19:23
the next 25 years off of this. And that
00:19:26
is the difference. And I think like what
00:19:28
you know people always ask about or I
00:19:31
guess you look at the Canadian system
00:19:33
versus the American system. the Canadian
00:19:35
system. You as the producers, if you
00:19:38
want to take advantage of being a really
00:19:40
truly Canadian show, part of the G like
00:19:43
the offering is the broadcasters can't
00:19:46
own the IP. The producers get to and
00:19:50
some people will look at that, you know,
00:19:51
the but the flip side in the US is
00:19:54
you're making way more money upfront. I
00:19:57
don't think that either is right and the
00:19:59
other is wrong. I just think that our
00:20:01
system uh is something to protect
00:20:05
because what's happening in the US you
00:20:07
can kind of look to and say I mean is
00:20:09
this fully working right now like can we
00:20:11
really argue that this system is better
00:20:14
than ours? No. But I can say that for a
00:20:17
hundred years this business was run on
00:20:19
the idea that creators and the people
00:20:22
who made it got to own and benefit from
00:20:26
what they did did for their entire
00:20:28
lives. And I think that that's something
00:20:30
worth fighting for.
00:20:31
>> I I think so completely. At some point,
00:20:34
I wasn't gonna make something for
00:20:35
someone and I said, "You just have to
00:20:36
give me IP." And they said, "Why do you
00:20:38
have to have it?" I said, "None of your
00:20:40
business." Cuz I want it.
00:20:41
>> Yeah.
00:20:42
>> Cuz it's mine. It's not yours.
00:20:43
>> It's like the old musician, right? It
00:20:45
was like own your own publishing, right?
00:20:46
Because why would you let somebody else
00:20:48
administer your work and take all the
00:20:50
profit from it?
00:20:51
>> That's correct.
00:20:51
>> And like we're going to we have
00:20:53
opportunities and we will work in this
00:20:55
system that doesn't have that and it'll
00:20:57
be fine as well. But I just think that
00:20:59
like when we talk about, you know,
00:21:01
there's so many reasons why budgets have
00:21:03
exploded. You know, the economy
00:21:05
of scale on on TV has just completely
00:21:08
fallen out because we don't make episode
00:21:11
enough episodes. We don't contain them
00:21:13
into certain locations. But also, it
00:21:17
doesn't matter if you have a massive hit
00:21:18
or kind of a middling hit, you seem to
00:21:21
win no matter what at that level. So I
00:21:23
think that there is something to look at
00:21:25
as we move forward in these systems of
00:21:27
like giving people back end again like
00:21:29
these these old ideas should be new
00:21:32
>> right which they which they have
00:21:33
changed. So we're going to take a quick
00:21:35
break when we come back we'll have a
00:21:36
question from a big fan. We're back with
00:21:39
Rob's executive producer Jacob Dier and
00:21:41
Brendan Brady uh who are behind the the
00:21:45
people behind this huge hit heated
00:21:47
rivalry. I'm friends with Eileen Chaen,
00:21:49
the executive producer of the L- Word,
00:21:50
Handmaid's Tale, and many other shows.
00:21:52
And of course, the groundbreaking sort
00:21:54
of gay show in the United States was
00:21:56
this one, uh, which was many moons ago.
00:21:58
She had a question we're going to play
00:22:00
for you right now, Jacob. I love your
00:22:02
show. Absolutely love it.
00:22:03
Congratulations. Here's my question. Our
00:22:07
mutual friend, colleague, agent, ally,
00:22:10
Matt Felker, shared with me the
00:22:12
outlandish and stupidly familiar story
00:22:14
of getting heated rivalry on the air.
00:22:17
all the rejections that preceded your
00:22:19
fabulous and well-deserved massive
00:22:21
success. So, do you feel vindicated,
00:22:24
pissed, annoyed, smuggly satisfied,
00:22:27
grateful, just enjoying the process,
00:22:30
more determined than ever to tell sexy
00:22:32
queer human stories, some other emotion
00:22:35
that I didn't describe or perhaps
00:22:37
haven't yet even experienced?
00:22:40
>> That's a um that's a great question. I
00:22:43
>> She's great. For people that don't know,
00:22:44
Lord really
00:22:45
>> brilliant show,
00:22:46
>> groundbreaking at the time. Um, was
00:22:50
shocking and showed people happy.
00:22:53
>> Yes, it did. It showed a lot of
00:22:54
complexity. I mean, yeah, it was a Yeah,
00:22:56
that's a real Thank you, um, for the
00:22:59
question and thank you for being a fan
00:23:01
of the show. That's so cool. And I'm
00:23:03
sorry that Matt Felker is both of our
00:23:04
agents. Um, it's a joke. I love Matt
00:23:07
Felker, but um you know uh uh I can't
00:23:10
pretend there isn't a part of me that's
00:23:12
slightly smug. I mean, you know,
00:23:15
a show like this we're experiencing here
00:23:18
with this show is so like beyond the
00:23:20
beyond in the land of you can have a
00:23:23
successful show as I did with Letter
00:23:24
Kenny previously and it does not explode
00:23:27
in this way and this this level of
00:23:29
attention. Um, I, you know, I I try to
00:23:32
not I I'm in therapy and I try to not be
00:23:36
I try to not be toxic exteriorly. And I
00:23:39
think that the lesson that I want to
00:23:40
take away from this experience is to
00:23:42
continue to trust myself creatively
00:23:45
because that is the thing that paid off
00:23:46
is that I felt very strongly and I
00:23:49
luckily had enough backing and support
00:23:51
Brendan primarily obviously and then my
00:23:54
my creative crave family all these
00:23:56
executives there and and I did trust
00:23:59
something inside me that was like I'm
00:24:00
not doing that. I'm not doing what these
00:24:02
folks want me to do. And I just to be
00:24:03
very clear it wasn't just Americans it
00:24:05
was other Canadians too. It was a lot of
00:24:06
people like this. They all like the
00:24:08
lean-in like, "Oh, you have a gay hockey
00:24:10
show with sex." And they were like,
00:24:11
"That's not what we meant. Too much sex,
00:24:13
too much hockey, too little hockey, too
00:24:15
little sex." Whatever it was, it was all
00:24:17
like, "Why is it like this? Can it be
00:24:19
different?" And I really was like, "I
00:24:21
don't think it should be. I think it
00:24:22
should be what it
00:24:23
>> What was the craziest thing?" Um, my
00:24:25
ex-wife started Planet Out and then and
00:24:28
they merged with Gay.com and one of the
00:24:30
venture capitalists said, "Couldn't they
00:24:32
just be hip people versus gay people?" I
00:24:34
mean, listen. And she said she said I
00:24:36
she was like what? Like
00:24:38
>> I think the thing that didn't the thing
00:24:40
that was the most you don't get this
00:24:42
note that we got I think was the idea of
00:24:45
needing a female entry point into the
00:24:47
show because women wouldn't watch this
00:24:48
show if there wasn't a woman
00:24:50
protagonist. And I was like you know
00:24:52
women read these books women write these
00:24:54
book gay men don't even know these books
00:24:56
exist. Like these are for women. And so
00:24:59
the miss that gap in understanding
00:25:02
u and I do think there's a thing with TV
00:25:04
you know a lot of executives they get it
00:25:07
feels like they get paid by the note and
00:25:08
so if they are not coming in with a big
00:25:10
thought what are they even doing in the
00:25:11
room the most of the best executives
00:25:13
that I know are the people that actually
00:25:15
speak the least and that kind of
00:25:17
trusting creators and then when they do
00:25:19
give a note uh I take it because this is
00:25:21
somebody that is rowing in the same
00:25:23
direction as me. This is somebody trying
00:25:25
to make the same show as me. So in
00:25:27
general they call it drive by editing.
00:25:29
>> Yeah. There you go. Yeah. And so I I
00:25:31
think that there was such a
00:25:32
misunderstanding of who the what the
00:25:34
audience wanted out of this and what I
00:25:37
chose to trust was my gut and the IP and
00:25:41
the audience that was already enjoying
00:25:43
it. And I was like why would you change
00:25:45
this when it's already being consumed
00:25:46
and obsessed over to this degree? Why do
00:25:49
you think you know more?
00:25:50
>> What about you Brendon? Oh, um I've also
00:25:54
listen there the best thing that
00:25:56
happened was we we are friends with a
00:25:58
couple of folks who ended up passing
00:26:00
because their their bosses wouldn't get
00:26:03
on board and getting them letting them
00:26:06
come to us and be like I told my boss
00:26:08
look what you missed out that is the fun
00:26:10
part of the like kind of smuggness I
00:26:13
think you know but to be honest um this
00:26:17
has been absolutely nuts Cara like we're
00:26:19
this has been so crazy it's so much
00:26:21
bigger than we ever thought. I think the
00:26:24
>> now everybody's your friend, right?
00:26:25
>> Yeah. But also I just feel that I'm
00:26:28
going to sound a little polyianish here,
00:26:30
but I mean it. We are trying to also
00:26:34
stay grounded by being of service to
00:26:36
people. Part of the reason why we were
00:26:38
at the CMPA thing with uh Mark Carney
00:26:41
was to kind of raise awareness for our
00:26:44
industry and we're just trying to figure
00:26:46
out ways to to stay grounded with the
00:26:49
people and the things that make uh you
00:26:50
know we've got this incredible platform.
00:26:52
We want to use it to to actually promote
00:26:55
positive issues. Um and we're we're
00:26:58
hoping that that's what we can kind of
00:26:59
do. And that's been the most fun thing
00:27:02
that we've gotten to to experience right
00:27:04
now is like hearing from people how
00:27:07
their lives are being changed and how we
00:27:09
are now able to actually affect a
00:27:12
modicum of change. Even if it's just
00:27:13
pushing everything in the right
00:27:15
direction, we're not going to change the
00:27:16
entire universe here.
00:27:18
>> No, of course not. But but the
00:27:19
specificity of the things we are able to
00:27:21
change has been really positive and
00:27:23
lovely. So in that genre, I want to play
00:27:25
something Matt Damon said on Joe Rogan
00:27:27
last month about how streaming has
00:27:28
impacted the creative process because a
00:27:30
lot of it part of it are people breaking
00:27:32
free, right? Like myself many years ago
00:27:34
or I have a lot of people coming to me.
00:27:36
I'm like it's great out here. Like you
00:27:38
don't need all that stuff. But let's
00:27:40
talk let's hear what he had to say. And
00:27:41
this is a very successful actor and
00:27:43
producer.
00:27:43
>> Sorry. You said Matt Damon. Matt Damon.
00:27:45
Oh, okay. Interesting.
00:27:47
>> He's talking about the the business.
00:27:48
>> I've heard of him. I think I've heard of
00:27:49
him. You've heard of him. Like for
00:27:51
instance, Netflix um you know standard
00:27:55
way to make an action movie that we
00:27:57
learned was you know you usually have
00:27:59
like three set pieces, one in the first
00:28:01
act, one in the second, one in the third
00:28:02
and you know you kind of ramp up and the
00:28:04
big one with all the explosions and you
00:28:06
spend most of your money on that one in
00:28:07
the third act that's your kind of
00:28:09
finale. Um and now they're, you know,
00:28:11
they're like can we get a big one in the
00:28:13
first five minutes to get somebody, you
00:28:15
know, we want people to stay
00:28:16
>> Yeah. tuned in and and can and you know
00:28:19
it wouldn't be terrible if you
00:28:21
reiterated the plot three or four times
00:28:23
in the dialogue because people are on
00:28:25
their phones while they're watching. You
00:28:27
know what I mean?
00:28:28
>> So talk about that. He would, by the
00:28:29
way, would make an excellent gay hockey
00:28:31
player. But um
00:28:33
>> too old an old gay hockey
00:28:35
>> a retired one. Sure.
00:28:37
>> Listen, I should be clear. I love Matt
00:28:39
Damon. I've always loved Matt Damon.
00:28:41
>> So what talk about that? What's
00:28:42
happening now in in the creation? Do you
00:28:45
either of you feel pressure?
00:28:47
>> We have yet to really experience that if
00:28:49
I'm being perfectly honest, Crave was
00:28:51
not like that. Um, and I will say that
00:28:54
part of what the reaction to the show
00:28:56
that has been so kind of interesting to
00:28:58
me is people saying like this is a show
00:29:01
you have to pay attention to. If you're
00:29:02
on your phone, you're not going to get
00:29:03
it because it's so much about what is
00:29:05
not being said, about catching looks
00:29:08
between people. It is dialogue as
00:29:09
avoidance and obiscation. And the story
00:29:12
line is actually really simple. They're
00:29:14
in love. they can't admit it. So like
00:29:15
it's actually not a super complicated
00:29:17
plot in that way, but so much of it is
00:29:19
about the ways in which they're avoiding
00:29:21
each other, the ways in which they
00:29:23
cannot speak. That's why the sex is so
00:29:25
important because that's when they're
00:29:27
being honest. And so I think there is
00:29:30
definitely a move towards
00:29:31
oversimplification.
00:29:33
That being said, you know, I I don't I
00:29:36
wouldn't want to make too much of a big
00:29:37
deal about this. Like everybody wants an
00:29:39
opening that captures you. Like that's
00:29:40
not new. like that that that's been a
00:29:42
note since the dawn of time with stories
00:29:44
like let me in what's the first scene
00:29:47
why are you capturing my attention I
00:29:49
don't think that's insane and I think
00:29:51
that like I think that that's you know I
00:29:53
think that this thing you can see it I
00:29:55
think in a lot of streamers you know
00:29:56
where you're like oh boy you've just
00:29:58
explained a thing to me that I already
00:29:59
know I get I get that that can be
00:30:01
frustrating but I would also add I am on
00:30:04
my phone when I look up and realize
00:30:06
you've said it to me this for the third
00:30:08
time and I'm like yeah you're not wrong
00:30:10
I did drip Right.
00:30:11
>> But and I think that there can be room
00:30:13
for both. You know, entertainment and
00:30:15
popcorny fun stuff that like I kind of
00:30:17
don't care. And then every once in a
00:30:19
while something comes along and you need
00:30:20
to pay attention and that's okay too.
00:30:22
And then and then it's up to you to
00:30:23
choose. Do you is that too much for you?
00:30:25
That's okay. Move it along.
00:30:26
>> Yeah. I actually didn't look at my I I
00:30:28
have a rule like how many how many text
00:30:30
looks isn't in a movie? How good is it
00:30:32
if I don't pick it up at all?
00:30:34
>> We have shows in my household with my
00:30:36
boyfriend that we put on to be on our
00:30:38
phones with. We're aware of this and we
00:30:40
think of them as like visual podcast.
00:30:41
The
00:30:42
>> Grammys
00:30:44
Grammys was a good one. When you have
00:30:45
the the Netflix acquisition of Warner,
00:30:47
does that affect it?
00:30:50
>> Yeah. Yeah. Well, yeah, we don't I think
00:30:53
we don't, you know, we have no uh actual
00:30:55
information on that. I would say um
00:30:58
again,
00:31:00
we just want more competition in the
00:31:02
marketplace and I think that this this
00:31:05
is part in Canada in everywhere
00:31:08
everywhere really. But I think, you
00:31:09
know, it's kind of to the point I was
00:31:12
making about like, is this system in the
00:31:14
US working really well right now? I
00:31:16
don't know. Is that good? Is this going
00:31:18
to be good for creators? Um, it's really
00:31:21
hard to tell at this point, but I would
00:31:23
say like I don't love that there's less
00:31:25
places to go cuz in Canada what we have
00:31:28
like the reason why we ended up on HBO
00:31:31
uh around the world is because Crave and
00:31:35
uh Bell Media have the exclusive rights
00:31:38
to all of HBO's uh catalog in Canada.
00:31:42
>> Um and so if we don't have HBO, you have
00:31:46
Crave and that has HBO on it. And so
00:31:48
like if we
00:31:51
don't have that on Crave, does that
00:31:54
affect Crave? What happens to them?
00:31:56
That's a big part of why people go
00:31:58
there. I mean, now in now in heated
00:32:00
rivalry, obviously, but um but yeah,
00:32:02
like I think that it's a scary time as
00:32:05
we see more and more mergers happening.
00:32:08
And I for one would love to see uh just
00:32:11
more competition because I think it's
00:32:13
way better when we have more. But what I
00:32:15
would say too, I just that because we're
00:32:17
an acquisition, you know, HBO is not
00:32:20
actually creatively involved in the
00:32:21
show. I think they like they they say
00:32:23
nice things about it, which is great.
00:32:24
Exactly. So, we're not like I think that
00:32:27
that that part is not really going to
00:32:29
change uh at least in the foreseeable
00:32:31
future.
00:32:32
>> Mhm. So, but now now that the show's
00:32:35
blown up, they're not suddenly have an
00:32:36
opinion about
00:32:37
>> No, they're still getting it for the
00:32:38
same price. I think it's worked out
00:32:39
great for them. It's worked out really
00:32:40
well for them. Like, this is a very
00:32:42
successful acquisition. And I mean it's
00:32:44
clearly working well enough that I don't
00:32:46
think they feel the you know yeah I I
00:32:48
think that this is just like keep doing
00:32:49
it guys. That's the that's at least what
00:32:51
Casey has explicitly quite said to us is
00:32:53
like keep going
00:32:55
>> but it can go elsewhere right around the
00:32:57
world.
00:32:58
>> Correct.
00:32:58
>> So it's been sold territory by terri or
00:33:01
chunk of territory by territory in
00:33:03
general p picked up by HBO outlets Sky
00:33:06
in the UK and Ireland and in New
00:33:08
Zealand. a couple of other exceptions to
00:33:09
that rule, but basically what they do is
00:33:12
they buy it for and then they have an
00:33:14
option on the second season and
00:33:15
potentially third season. So they get
00:33:17
it's like a kind of a right of first
00:33:18
refusal. So with with an increase they
00:33:20
get it. So it's not really even to be
00:33:22
renegotiated. It's just kind of like you
00:33:24
either want this or you don't. There's
00:33:25
no input into the content.
00:33:27
>> Right. Right. Um I have a couple more
00:33:29
quick question quick questions. One is
00:33:30
about obviously everyone here in the
00:33:32
entertainment industry in LA seems to be
00:33:34
in despair in many ways in terms of
00:33:36
what's happening and including with
00:33:38
competition with AI and stuff. Do you do
00:33:40
you is there a big fear from you all
00:33:43
about AI because this is the some of the
00:33:44
big hits this year have been the most
00:33:46
nonI type of content like sinners
00:33:49
weapons yours you know I think that yeah
00:33:52
>> I want each of you to talk about
00:33:54
>> has more thoughts on this than I do.
00:33:55
>> Okay. Uh yeah, I think that listen there
00:33:59
is going to be a place for AI in how we
00:34:02
work in this business. I actually think
00:34:04
that there are a lot of opportunities
00:34:07
but I think it is in that tool for
00:34:10
creators not as the creative engine
00:34:13
behind
00:34:14
>> costumeuming.
00:34:15
>> I think like even scheduling, budgeting
00:34:18
and prepping like those kinds of things
00:34:20
where you take an immense amount of time
00:34:22
trying to just input data. So much of
00:34:25
our jobs are data driven like just
00:34:26
trying to get information and I do think
00:34:29
exactly I think that those are the
00:34:31
opportunities right away that we will
00:34:34
see and where I would love for people to
00:34:36
focus their attention because we were
00:34:39
experiencing this and I'm sure Cara you
00:34:40
can you have had this with your team
00:34:43
those moments of friction when you're
00:34:46
trying to explain something to someone
00:34:49
and they don't get it that is hard to
00:34:52
replicate that is hard to do with AI in
00:34:55
a way that actually gets you to a place
00:34:57
where you're like, "Okay, cool. We have
00:34:59
now communicated together and we are on
00:35:01
the aligned and you're now going to
00:35:04
>> speaking of friction, your whole show is
00:35:05
about friction."
00:35:06
>> Hell yeah. Hell yeah. But yeah, I think
00:35:08
that I think it's hard. I think we
00:35:10
underestimate the importance of friction
00:35:13
in the creative experience.
00:35:14
>> Yep. I would agree. That's that's
00:35:16
exactly how I say it. I I talk about it.
00:35:18
I the the words tech people use are
00:35:20
always seamless, frictionless,
00:35:22
convenient. You know, they're always
00:35:24
using those words. I'm like, "No,
00:35:25
friction's critical for you being here."
00:35:28
>> Yeah. What about you, Jacob? Do you
00:35:30
think about it all?
00:35:31
>> Uh, it confuses me. Uh, no. Is the
00:35:34
answer. Like, I don't think like I again
00:35:37
like the way that the way that Brendon
00:35:38
speaks about it is like that makes sense
00:35:40
to him. I'm like, I can imagine it
00:35:41
helping me with some stuff, but like
00:35:43
it's not going to write for me. Like I
00:35:45
don't I don't want that either. I love
00:35:47
what I do. I don't want to I don't want
00:35:49
someone I don't need that kind of help
00:35:52
is the way I would say. Yeah.
00:35:54
>> So, before we go, what would you uh want
00:35:56
to do if you could do anything? Like you
00:35:58
guys are now the world is your oyster
00:36:00
kind of thing. Like you can do obviously
00:36:01
you're going to do another season of
00:36:02
this, maybe two, three, whatever. Um
00:36:05
because there's lots of books for people
00:36:07
don't realize. Um what what would you
00:36:10
want to make? Would you direct say a
00:36:12
pointed point break remake with your
00:36:14
heated survival stars? another one
00:36:16
before they finally [ __ ] the game.
00:36:19
>> Where they finally [ __ ]
00:36:23
that I'm very open to a father son story
00:36:26
with Hudson Williams and Keanu Reeves.
00:36:28
However, I would
00:36:30
>> um you know
00:36:31
>> they do look alike.
00:36:32
>> They do. They really do. And Keanu is
00:36:33
Canadian. He can come home. We can do a
00:36:35
fun thing together. Um,
00:36:38
you know, we are being we I'm certainly
00:36:40
being offered a lot of things and uh uh
00:36:43
and uh yeah, I'm very excited about
00:36:45
what's next. And I
00:36:46
>> Is there anything you're like, God,
00:36:48
>> I can't really say, but I can tell you
00:36:50
that once I can talk about
00:36:53
>> a couple of things. They are one of
00:36:55
which in particular is a dream uh come
00:36:59
true. Uh so yeah, I I'm I'm excited to
00:37:02
be able to eventually talk about it, but
00:37:03
I I can't at this point. We've got also
00:37:06
Yeah. And we also we have a whole
00:37:08
productions company that we're running
00:37:10
with a like a lot in development. So,
00:37:13
it's about getting these projects. The
00:37:14
projects that, you know, from a producer
00:37:17
standpoint, what we really want to get
00:37:19
made um are we have a number of shows.
00:37:22
The one that is about to go out is
00:37:24
called The King is Dead. And I'm going
00:37:25
to plug it right here because it's from
00:37:27
an amazing amazing indigenous writer out
00:37:30
of Canada named Tim Fontaine. Crave is
00:37:33
already signed on for development. We're
00:37:35
looking for that other partner because
00:37:37
it's basically a uh uh it's a com action
00:37:42
adventure comedy set in the 1700s. I
00:37:44
know. Bear with us.
00:37:47
>> Hello, Outlander.
00:37:48
>> Yeah, 100%. But it's a comedy about a
00:37:51
group of indigenous folks uh tired of
00:37:53
all these white people coming to North
00:37:56
America. They take a boat, traverse back
00:38:00
to England, uh, in an attempt to kill
00:38:03
King George III.
00:38:04
>> Oh my god.
00:38:06
History.
00:38:06
>> It's like Monty Python energy. It's very
00:38:09
funny and we're very excited about that
00:38:11
show.
00:38:12
>> Yeah. So, that's in development with
00:38:14
Crave right now and we're very excited
00:38:15
about that one.
00:38:16
>> All right. Well, everybody loves you.
00:38:18
All the boys are getting a lot of
00:38:19
attention, which they must be having a
00:38:21
ball, it looks like, but you guys
00:38:22
deserve equal amounts of attention. We
00:38:24
think what you make is amazing. and and
00:38:28
in this time in the United States, it
00:38:29
was just what was needed for. So, get
00:38:32
that episode out. Get that special
00:38:34
episode.
00:38:35
>> We will. We will do our best. And thank
00:38:36
you for having us on. We really
00:38:38
appreciate it. Thank you, Cara.
00:38:39
>> Thank you, Jacob. And thank you, uh,
00:38:41
Brendan. Um, thanks to the audience for
00:38:43
listening to our special bonus episode
00:38:45
of Pivot. You'll be back in our fe will
00:38:47
be back in our feeds on Tuesday, and I
00:38:49
will read us out. Today's show was
00:38:52
produced by Larara Neon, Zoe Marcus, and
00:38:54
Taylor Griffin. Brandon McFarland
00:38:56
engineered this episode. Jim Mle edited
00:38:59
the video. Nishad Kerwa is Vox Media's
00:39:01
executive producer podcast. Make sure to
00:39:03
follow Pivot on your favorite podcast
00:39:05
platform. Thanks for listening to Pivot
00:39:07
from New York Magazine and Vox Media.
00:39:09
You can subscribe to the magazine at
00:39:11
nymag.com/pod.
00:39:13
We'll be back later this week for
00:39:14
another breakdown of all things tech and
00:39:16
business. And Scott, eat your heart out.
00:39:18
I got the heat of rivalry, guys.