00:00:00
I think Trump loves this because I think his five comms people in a room with AI are saying, "Push the Kimmel thing. Push
00:00:05
the Kimmel thing. Threaten it." Yeah. Boom. Boom. It's working. Keep Epstein out of the news.
00:00:16
Hi everyone. This is Pivot from New York Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast Network. I'm Cara Swisser and Scott,
00:00:22
we're 23 in the world. What do you think about that? Uh, I'm Scott Galloway. I don't I'd like
00:00:28
to be 23. Would I like to be 23 again? I'm not sure. Anyways, I don't understand. What's 23?
00:00:33
We're the 2 in the top shows. We're 23. We've risen to 23, isn't it? You mean across all podcasts?
00:00:40
Across all podcasts. Not just in our category of news. We're very quite high. Watch out Caller Daddy and Mel Robbins.
00:00:45
We're coming for you. We don't have to talk about Smartless. We should talk more about vaginas if we
00:00:51
want to get to the top. I think Yeah, I was just thinking that. That's what's missing from the show. Yeah, we're 23.
00:00:57
Yeah, 100%. You know, I almost ran over one of our fans the other day.
00:01:02
I was driving and I was taking a ride on Red and I didn't they they sort of popped out from behind a car uh crossing
00:01:09
and it was my fault. I shouldn't have. It's was a no right on red, but I didn't do it. I was stopped, but I was sort you
00:01:15
know when you sort of wander into the lane essentially. Um and the person was
00:01:21
like, "Hey." And then they're like, "Cara Swissers." They were both horrified at me and then yelled love
00:01:28
pivot. That's anyway almost I pulled a total power move yesterday
00:01:33
was in town and he said do you want to have coffee? I said sure. So I had him meet me at Jack's wife Freda and I purposely faced
00:01:40
the street cuz I know four or five people will be like gee just to say brother you may be my boss but who's
00:01:46
really in charge here? Did you work? I don't think it works with Jim. He's too nice.
00:01:52
He's too nice. He doesn't care. He's too nice. He's so nice. And then this morning, get this. You'll
00:01:57
like this. I want to share this question with I was trying to help my son study for the ACT. And you realize how much
00:02:03
your brain is atrophied. Yeah. And they have this critical thinking section. And so I'll see if you can
00:02:08
answer this question. Okay. Adam gave Sally three flowers and one stuffed animal. Kristen gave Sally five
00:02:16
flowers and two stuffed animals. Okay. What does Sally have?
00:02:22
What? She has cancer. That's good. That's good.
00:02:29
Oh my god. I I said vagina jokes, not cancer jokes. That's pretty good. That's pretty good.
00:02:36
Okay. All right. That's why we're 23 on that quality. Here we Here we 22. Watch out.
00:02:42
We're harassing uh business people and and making stupid cancer jokes. Um
00:02:47
anyway, how are you doing? I'm wearing my Uber shirt. I went to breakfast with the Uber folk here in DC yesterday.
00:02:53
Someone I've known a long time. I'm doing great. I was in I've been in New York for better part of the last week. I'm headed to Aspen today for
00:03:01
one of those Oh, your secret thing. My secret? Yeah. My not so secret thing. Yeah. Um I'm sure what will be my first
00:03:07
This is what I want you to tell Ari Emanuel. [ __ ] you, Ari. Okay. Can you Yeah, I'll get right on that.
00:03:12
Just like that. Say [ __ ] you Ari from Cara. Okay. Yeah. I love the guys at I love the guys
00:03:17
at WME. They're nice people. They're your people, right? You're That's your agency. Those are my That's my agency. I have UTA. I like them, too.
00:03:24
Well, you can clear that up with cranberry juice. Oh, wait. UTA. I'm sorry. I'm sorry.
00:03:29
You know, in truth, I have issues around that. Just, you know, so do many women. I think most women do.
00:03:35
Yeah, I got to say. I got to say. Yeah. You know, one time I had I'm going to tell here's a vagina story. I was in in
00:03:42
Las Vegas and a friend I'm not going to say who it is but it was pretty Yeah, that's a good idea that the I
00:03:47
would I don't even know what this story is. I would leave. I had a UTI and I was killing. We were supposed to go out in Vegas and I was like, "I'm going to have
00:03:53
to sit in my hotel room moaning on the floor." And this woman said, "Oh, I've got a whole kit upstairs." And I was
00:04:00
like, "Oh." And she had all the like the pills and the cramp, whatever, everything to go like all the stuff that
00:04:05
solves it like right away. And as we're riding up in the elevator to go get the stuff cuz I was in a lot of pain. Um I
00:04:12
said, "Oh, you have a kit. Why do you have a kit?" And she goes in the elevator pavil people in Las Vegas goes
00:04:17
well me and my husbands have a lot of rough sex and so I really need and I was like okay like something I didn't know
00:04:23
about this person. Yeah. I don't know. I mean among other things one of the things that's
00:04:29
I don't think people want to know that that's bad about getting a UTI. It means that you're in trouble. Get it? You're
00:04:34
in trouble. No. Oh trouble. Okay. We're moving on. We got to move on from this. We must move on. 24, 25, 26,
00:04:43
27. It's dropping. We're losing the patient.
00:04:48
Anyway, uh we just we have to ramp up the rage if we want to get to the top. Um or get very calm like Michael
00:04:53
Barbaro. How you doing? Yeah.
00:04:59
Is he still Is he still angry at me for making fun of him after being co-host? I have no idea. I haven't heard from him since. Anyway, sorry, Mike. That's an
00:05:06
indicator. Big kiss. Maybe he just has a terrible UTI. Oh my god. Don't start. Okay, we're
00:05:12
going to move on. We got a lot to get to today. There's serious things happening, including a business impact of Trump's Tylenol claims. And uh is Nvidia's uh
00:05:20
big open AI investment really just a shell game? Many people feel that way. But first, Jimmy Kimmel returned to late
00:05:26
night, racked up 6.2 million viewers on TV and tens of millions of views on YouTube. Very did very well. That's
00:05:32
around four times his usual live audience despite the fact that NextStar and Sinclair local ABC affiliates
00:05:37
boycotted the show including here in Washington DC but it was about 25% of the country. Not a not the biggest
00:05:43
market except for I think DC and Seattle. But let's listen to a clip from his opening monologue.
00:05:49
I've been hearing a lot about what I need to say and do tonight. And the truth is I don't think what I have to
00:05:55
say is going to make much of a difference. If you like me, you like me. If you don't, you don't. I have no illusions about changing anyone's mind.
00:06:01
But I do want to make something clear because it's important to me as a human and that is you understand that it was
00:06:07
never my intention to make light of the murder of a young man. I I don't
00:06:14
I thought that was um terrific. I thought it was terrific. Jimmy gave what could be described as an
00:06:19
incredible individual performance last night. The market Yeah. And last night too. Yeah.
00:06:25
And and essentially I really appreciate I've never I don't watch late night TV.
00:06:30
I haven't watched it since Letterman. And u essentially I thought I thought I
00:06:36
think Jimmy did a nice not only did a great job, but I think him reflecting that emotion. It seemed genuine is really important for young men to see
00:06:43
with all this kind of performative masculinity and conflating masculinity with courarss and cruelty. I think that's really terrible for young men. So
00:06:49
to see a guy that talented, that successful in what it feels very genuinely
00:06:56
genuine emotion. Yeah, he's like that. Um and he's done that before. I think that's I think that's
00:07:01
like you in that regard. I have to say you do that too. But I think it's um I think young men
00:07:07
need to see that that that you know you need to feel your emotions. It's okay to
00:07:12
be vulnerable. It's it's important that you inform your yourself in terms of what moves you and in other people
00:07:18
around you. So that to me was absolutely the mo the most powerful moment. And but
00:07:25
market dynamics trump individual performance. Yeah, the Jimmy Kimmel show as it is now is is
00:07:31
already over. It's just a question of timing and and
00:07:37
it'll reinvent itself in a podcast format or streaming. But the means of production and the infrastructure
00:07:42
they've set up just can't justify the business that is declining as is all late night TV. There's nothing any of them can do. The
00:07:49
the structural change here is so significant. Yeah. The the the biggest he comes out of this
00:07:55
a big winner. He looks really good. Um the biggest loser hands down is Bob Iger
00:08:00
as people what's interesting historically people are angry at the strong man right
00:08:06
but people either love the strong man or hate him who people really hate and who history is really unkind to
00:08:12
quizzlings is the cowards that enabled him and if you look back um I won't even go
00:08:19
there I was watching this thing on World War II and what they did to some cross that's what you're well there's the strong men are usually
00:08:27
very charismatic and have are ideologues and you know and some people would argue that the president is an ideologue but
00:08:33
basically what Jimmy Kimmel said you either like me or don't is kind of true of Trump right now. I just what I hear
00:08:38
from people who've decided that oh it's okay that his head of ice stick $50,000 in cash in a brown bag. I mean, it's
00:08:44
okay. There's there's literally nothing you can say. Oh, he's co he's really
00:08:50
close friends and was uh bombing around town and hanging out with a convicted
00:08:55
pedophile. Oh, no, no, no, no, no, no. He was an undercover FBI agent helping I
00:09:00
mean, anything. So, yeah, there's just no red line. Meanwhile, President Trump took to Truth
00:09:06
Social to say, "Kimmel's audience is gone." And also to threaten ABC, saying, "I think we're going to test ABC out on
00:09:13
this. Let's see how uh we do." Last time I went after them, they gave me $16 million. This one sounds even more
00:09:20
lucrative. Supposedly, they're going to fight now. They've hired all kinds of law firms, which is what they should have done in the first place if they
00:09:26
keep coming after me. Thanks. And and Pete Buddhaj should have been my vice president. So yeah, the
00:09:33
this is just a really bad look for them. There's no saving late night TV at this point. It'll have to reinvent itself
00:09:39
with a lower, as I said, uh means of production. And at the end of the day, Cara, I think this is all I think Trump
00:09:46
loves this because I think it's five comms people in a room with AI are saying, "Push the Kimmel thing. Push the Kimmel thing. Threaten it."
00:09:51
Yeah. Boom. Boom. It's working. Keep Epstein out of the news. Keep Epstein out of the news. All right. Tomorrow, if it dies down,
00:09:58
move Oh, Tylenol. say Tylenol is bad for both. I mean, just I think their entire strategy right now
00:10:05
is not what's good for America, not what reflects any cohesion around foreign policy, not trying to help, you know,
00:10:11
the markets or or or boost the economy. I think their entire focus is what can I
00:10:18
say? And they test it a million times in one second with AI that will keep
00:10:23
Epstein out of the news cycle. We don't care how stupid it is. We don't care how trivial it is. Yep. Nope. No question. I think I agree
00:10:30
with you. I mean the the we've been talking about the finances of all these broadcast networks for a long long time and where they go. There is a lot to do
00:10:37
innovate here if you wanted because obviously his performance was excellent. He's very talented. Most important he
00:10:43
was funny. He was really funny. He had some great jokes and Dairo was hysterical. Um as
00:10:48
I didn't see that. Oh my god. You It's so good. You know he's playing a mobster like you. It just
00:10:54
is. It's it was it was perfectly timed and Dairo did a great job. Um, you know,
00:10:59
he has so much goodwill. Uh, Jimmy Kimmel, he really does have a lot of goodwill and the numbers, you know, show
00:11:05
it. People wanted to see what he said and I thought he handled it with a lot of class and most importantly was funny
00:11:10
like that. If he wasn't funny, he was too lectury, he was too whiny, it would have been a problem. Um, you know,
00:11:16
interestingly, um, before we move on, let's listen to a clip with someone who was also doubling and tripling down is
00:11:22
South Park, which was quiet for a little while and now this week was not quiet, where Brendan Carr, who they beat up
00:11:29
throughout the entire episode, is in the hospital. Uh, let's listen to it.
00:11:35
Mr. Carr, Mr. Carr, can you hear me? We understand you're head of the FCC. Is
00:11:42
that correct? All right. Well, I'm very sorry, but you
00:11:48
do appear to have toxoplasmosis from exposure to cat feces. [Music]
00:11:54
We need you to get some rest. Try not to move. [Music] Will the head of the FCC be okay,
00:12:01
doctor? His bones are healing, so he may regain full range of motion. But if the
00:12:07
toxopplasmosis parasite gets to his brain, I'm afraid he may lose his freedom of speech.
00:12:15
We'll do everything we can. It was so funny and it was
00:12:21
so mean. I was even like, "Wow, is that mean to Brandon Carr." Uh, but free speech Brandon, right? Hey, it's the
00:12:29
Ellison's paying for that one. So, those guys are geniuses. I mean, they are tr I think they should get the Nobel
00:12:34
Peace Prize. I think they're going to It's so bad that it's so good. Anyway, um, you know, that's the thing. They
00:12:40
can't You can't stop this speech. You really can't unless you're an incredible hypocrite. You either have to go all in
00:12:45
with it uh or or not. And I think this is sort of an objectless. This is what
00:12:50
moved everyone. And I will make a quick note. There were a lot of this Jimmy Kimmel did get all the attention. I see
00:12:56
why. He's a comic and everything else, but there's lots of other people like as I said Karen, a whole bunch of people um
00:13:02
who have been sort of quieted down and and Kimmel referred to a lot of people, journalists at the Pentagon elsewhere.
00:13:09
So, this is a very serious thing, as joking as it is, um, what they're trying to do here, and it's very classic
00:13:15
playbook of an autocrat. Uh, okay, moving on. Nvidia will invest $100 billion in OpenAI. The deal will allow
00:13:21
OpenAI to use Nvidia's AI semiconductors inside its data centers. The buildout will require 10 gawatts of power, which
00:13:28
is around the amount consumed by about 8 million homes. Nvidia stock is up 2% the
00:13:34
last 5 days at the time of the taping. This feels like a round trip. I had like feelings of AOL back in the day with
00:13:40
Purchase Pro and everything else where they're buying they're giving them money which they're using to buy chips which
00:13:46
they're using, you know what I mean? This is so intertwined and I find it a little strange. Several people wrote me
00:13:52
about this. I'd love to know what you think about it. Um given it feels like roundtpping. That's what it feels like
00:13:58
to me. But your thoughts? Oh, it's eerily reminiscent of I've been
00:14:03
through this. It it it's a signal a huge um flashing green or red light of that
00:14:10
we're in late stage bubble. Yeah. And that is okay we can't justify valuation. So let's take $2.5% dilution
00:14:18
issue stock take hundred billion which is only 2.5% of a $4 trillion market cap
00:14:24
company invest in another company with the agreement they're going to use all of that money to buy our chips. So we
00:14:31
juice our top line and our multiple on revenues is much greater. I mean it's it's I'll use another
00:14:38
example. In 99, I was trying to sell or
00:14:43
early 2000, I was trying to sell my brand strategy firm, Profit, and I was
00:14:48
leaving to start an e-commerce incubator and in New York, backed by Goldman,
00:14:54
Maver, JP Morgan, you know, e-commerce in New York. And I spent, I don't know,
00:15:00
a half a million or a million dollars of the 15 million I raised on profit. And I
00:15:06
my board approved it to do the strategy, the brand positioning, and help me fill some positions in the short term I
00:15:12
didn't have. And then when we sold profit, we were selling profit to Dens. Dens originally offered me, I think,
00:15:18
like $38 million for the company. And then they came back and said, "We're lowering it to 30 or 33, I forget,
00:15:25
because those revenues you get from BrandFarm that Scott controls are related party revenues. You guys did not
00:15:31
go out and actually show that you can get that revenue without someone who's who's going to get it on the back end.
00:15:38
AOL was investing in all these small or and mediumsiz e-commerce companies
00:15:44
getting shares in exchange. So, it's it's it's a neutral balance sheet item
00:15:49
because they now have the shares on their balance sheet in exchange for them using all of that capital to invest on
00:15:55
AOL, which would juice their topline such that they could go sell a company worth 10 billion for 150 to Time Warner.
00:16:03
Yeah, this is late stage bubble. Yeah, I had big Myer Burlo David Coburn
00:16:09
vibes. Oh my god, it's so funny you say that. Right. All this all this shell game to try and figure
00:16:15
out how to juice. I mean, we we were all selling like software and stuff to each other, right?
00:16:20
And then when the music stopped, everything just collapsed. So there he kind of did that with his investment
00:16:26
in his own company, right? So he invested a billion in his own company which then grew by 20 billion. So he
00:16:32
made the money back like instantly anyway just well this in the short term yeah if you
00:16:38
can show another hundred billion dollars in topline revenue if you're Nvidia that's worth more than a 2 and 12%
00:16:44
dilution that'll take the stock up more than 2 and a half% or at least or at least supported more than 2 and 1 half% but the bottom line is it's
00:16:50
it's kind of a pyramid scheme. So there's the financial engineering aspect, the related party transaction
00:16:55
era that is really really unsettling. But even more bothersome than this is that if you look at any
00:17:03
assessment, sophisticated technical assessment of the LLMs, y there's something very interesting going
00:17:09
on and that is they are all converging. They are all becoming
00:17:15
they're all becoming the same LLM. No one's been able to innovate. Yeah. None of them have been
00:17:20
able to s to develop a sustainable technical advantage. They're all kind of the same thing. They all all the tests
00:17:26
run against these LLMs across the biggest ones. It's like a bunch of lines
00:17:31
with big deltas and they're all converging into the same line because AI can reverse engineer another AI really
00:17:37
quickly, right? So, I think Sam Alman's vision is like, look, the entire economy is going to run
00:17:45
through AI. When I walk when you walk in, when we walk into our studios, AI
00:17:50
lights will sense will sense that we're there, sense that we're not here. It's not the cleaning lady, it's us. Turn on
00:17:55
the lights, look at the color on our skin, adjust the lights, and then the agentic layer is going to go into our
00:18:02
calendar and order an Uber saying that I'm flying out. I mean, it's just every transaction in the economy uh could
00:18:10
arguably run through an LLM. It's likely,
00:18:15
at least Alman's vision, it's going to run through one. And so the idea that
00:18:20
you're taking the most powerful processing company and they are going to own a big component of OpenAI, the
00:18:27
largest front-end LLM with 77% share. I think Nvidia has 90 plus% share of
00:18:33
compute. It's just creating an unfair advantage for both of them because
00:18:38
essentially they will coordinate. How does an other LLM compete when the when
00:18:45
the best processing company is designing their chips around the nuance of OpenAI's business and Open AI has
00:18:53
insight into what's coming next maybe before anybody else and can start designing around it. So this is Winel 10
00:19:00
and if you had Tim Woo, Lena Khan or Jonathan Caner in charge here, you would
00:19:06
have already seen a letter saying we are very troubled by this. But in this administration, they're like, "Oh, as
00:19:12
long as you as long as you come to the White House and tell me I'm awesome, do whatever you want." In some fashion, who knows where the
00:19:19
vigs are here, right? I mean, there's VIGs everywhere. Nvidia gave is giving that deal to give 15% of its
00:19:26
It's really It's really something. I mean, I'm sorry. You just got to like it should be a business, but of course,
00:19:31
they're going to be doing this in order to build and they're going to make the excuses that it's going to cost a lot. And so, this is how we do this is how we
00:19:38
do it. But it I had such vibes back from purchase pro. Yeah, I remember that day. Isn't it? What was that? I don't
00:19:44
remember. What did they do? It's vibes. One person went to jail, I think, during But it's vibes from 98 and 99.
00:19:50
Yeah. I was like, "Oh god, I didn't like it then. I really don't like it now." But do you remember David Cover's boots?
00:19:57
His his he wore a cowboy boots. Yeah. I didn't I knew um Burlow.
00:20:03
No. Who was the I knew Myer Burlow. Who was the guy who ended up buying the Wizards at AOL? Ted Leons.
00:20:09
Ted Le was a nice man. Yeah, I knew Bob Pitman a tiny bit. Now I know him a little bit at iHeart.
00:20:16
One of my closest friends, Greg Show, ran the marketplace for AOL. I had a lot of friends there. Um. Yeah. Yeah.
00:20:21
But just to those are the two dealers, Meyer and David. But just to uh but just to continue the
00:20:27
walk down memory lane when I started Red Envelope and I had another company called Arvar. The only place where there
00:20:33
was any actual e-commerce was on AOL's marketplace because people like my my
00:20:38
father-in-law was like, "I'm not putting my credit card on the the the internet." Everyone thought Ukrainian gangs in the
00:20:43
mob ran the internet. But AOL was this walled garden. You've got mail. It was friendly. So if you had an e-commerce
00:20:50
company, you used to go to Virginia and be turned upside down and shaken for
00:20:56
everything. Cuz the only place anybody the only place anybody was buying [ __ ]
00:21:02
Yeah. was on the web. And then Amazon came in and said, "No, it's safe to buy stuff on on the web. Safe to buy."
00:21:08
That was a time I really had a memory when that happened. Okay, Scott, let's go on a quick break. When we come back, we'll talk about Trump v. Tylenol.
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00:21:53
Scott, we're back. Stock for Tylenol maker Ken View is down 7% in the last 5 days after President Trump's
00:21:58
announcement that the medicine may be linked to autism. Tylenol alone generates an estimated $1 billion in
00:22:04
annual sales for the company. The company has added information to its frequently asked question section,
00:22:09
stating there's no scientific evidence to back up the link, citing public health organizations that agree, including lots of doctors or Republic
00:22:16
and everyone else. The FDA still has initiated a process for a label change to products containing the drug saying
00:22:22
greens are associated with a higher risk of autism. Actually, the highest risk of autism is is genetics, especially among
00:22:28
older men. There's all kinds of actual science around autism, and it's a very complex issue. Um, what would you do
00:22:35
here if you were the head of Ken View? And by the way, uh, Tylenol used to be owned famously by J&J and sold it to
00:22:41
this company. Um, uh, what what what would you do here? Like this is crazy.
00:22:47
Like would you sue the president cuz or what? Oh, yeah. I'd absolutely go on the offensive. I think this is a kind of a
00:22:53
textbook definition of defamation. Uh, that there's no there's no real
00:22:58
science. I mean there have been some observational studies that have shown a prolonged that prolonged acetamophan use
00:23:03
during pregnancy is associated with higher rates of neural neurodedevelopmental disorders in children but these studies aren't
00:23:09
controlled meaning that they aren't really legitimate studies that qualify as science yet and also the reality is
00:23:15
and on my other uh pod raging moderates Jess Harlo actually got you know emotional she's like this is the only
00:23:23
this is the only safe alternative for pregnant women also and it was the
00:23:29
only safe alter the only one they'll they'll it's ridiculous what he was saying it's actually the science is so bad on it and actually
00:23:35
some of those studies don't even have uh study they are not complete studies they didn't I forget what the expression is
00:23:41
but it's not they're not actually the the ones that are showing show very complex things and often genetics like
00:23:48
twins who have it have it all kind there's a lot of genetic uh issues but should they take legal action would
00:23:55
should they and who and who do they sue to the president right correct I don't know what the rules are around
00:24:01
there is a certain blanket protection that when it's hard it's hard to sue public officials if they can show
00:24:08
there's no malice that they can get it wrong but generally speaking the government has fair my understanding is
00:24:15
fairly broad protections but I would absolutely go on offense and say there's no science to support this
00:24:23
and I would have run commercials of women saying I mean there are there are women who their their pregnancies would
00:24:31
just be tangibly more miserable. Yes. Without Tylenol. You're looking at one,
00:24:37
right? So So for them with with with RFK
00:24:42
Jr. in the background and his junk weird voodoo science, for them to say
00:24:47
something like this and for it to have an impact on this, what do you have? You're saying something not true without
00:24:54
proper diligence about your statements that has serious economic harm. They lost 10% of their market cap here.
00:24:59
Yeah. And I think they need to say are they I mean the temptation will be just go
00:25:04
underground. Just stay out of his way. People will look at the science. Doctors will tell pregnant women no you can take
00:25:11
Tylenol. I would I would absolutely play offense and say this is outrageous. It
00:25:16
is not true and you owe us 10% of our market cap. I don't know the legal
00:25:21
protection the president has and but even I don't think it results in a settlement where the president or the
00:25:27
white house or the government has to pay them but I think for optics they need to say we are so confident in Tylenol's use
00:25:34
that when someone says this we want the science exposed examined and scrutinized
00:25:42
by a judge a jury and the experts that both sides bring in. Yeah, that that worked when J&J had that crisis around
00:25:49
remember the the tampering and everything else. Um, they were very aggressive. I do a an entire session in brand
00:25:55
strategy on crisis management. Mhm. And the premier case study across all crisis management is Tylenol.
00:26:02
Yeah. And that is I forget when it was some madman tampered with Tylenol, put cyanide in it. A couple people take it,
00:26:08
they drop dead. And then tragedy on tragedy, the people who who took their
00:26:14
their loved ones to the morg or to the hospital then returned home and had terrible headaches and what did they do?
00:26:20
They took Tylenol and died. And the temptation and the response that most
00:26:26
companies would probably have taken up is the following. This is an isolated incident. You have nothing to worry
00:26:31
about. Tylenol said, and Johnson and Johnson said, "Clear every shelf of
00:26:38
every box of Tylenol until we know exactly what happened and we can put
00:26:43
more tamperproof packaging back on the shelves. It cost them tens of millions
00:26:49
of dollars. I mean, they basically the next day where Tylenol was or within 48 hours, it was empty. And it ended up uh
00:26:58
really restoring and creating a ton of trust in Johnson and Johnson and sort of served as the model for crisis
00:27:03
management. There only three things you have to remember in crisis management, but they're really difficult to do. One,
00:27:09
you acknowledge the problem, right? This happened. This was terrible. It happened with our product. Two, the top guy or
00:27:15
gal has to be out in front. And one of the reasons Exxon got in so much trouble with the Valdes was the CEO couldn't be found. And then the third thing, and the
00:27:22
hardest thing to do is to overcorrect. in that is you don't the the the temptation is to undercorrect and not
00:27:29
get in the way of your business. No, no, no. You clear all shelves, right? And so actually Johnson and Johnson is
00:27:35
considered like the the literally the prototype for crisis management. Right. But in this case, they didn't do
00:27:40
anything wrong. It's just that things up. There's no tinkering. There's no there's no science. There's no nothing.
00:27:46
A little harder. 100%. Uh I think but you're right. They should be aggressive 100%. One of the things that also happened during that president
00:27:53
for people who have who have not been pregnant is the the the the information around vaccines was so wrong by Trump. I
00:28:00
mean, it literally said to me, "You've never taken your children for vaccines, any of them. You have a lot of kids. You've never gone once. I I he's
00:28:07
probably never changed a diaper if I had to guess." But um it was so full of people who did not know what they were
00:28:13
talking about and do not have and have children but seemingly have never done any of the normal things you do for your
00:28:20
kids. It was really quite something. Oh god, I'm triggered. I remember taking my oldest Alec to get vaccines and he
00:28:26
hated needles and him screaming and me having to like hold them down. Oh god, Louis punched a nurse once.
00:28:33
I don't know vaccine. I don't He literally like he didn't mean to. She's she's stuck in the kids and they're
00:28:40
afraid like like whacked her in the face. I was like, "Oh my god, it was really something." Um anyway, uh they are
00:28:46
afraid and the vaccines are a lot better now. There's a lot of nasal ones and everything else, but um really really go
00:28:53
for it, Ken View. Um speaking of of saying they made a mistake, YouTube says it will reinstate accounts previously
00:28:59
banned for posting misinformation about CO 19 in the 2020 election. decision comes in response to House Republican
00:29:05
investigation into whether the Biden administration pressured tech companies to remove certain content previously banned accounts includes Children's
00:29:11
Health Defense Fund affiliated with RFK Jr. and uh Republican Senator Ron
00:29:16
Johnson. It's a it's a move to appease the administration, you know, essentially. And it's what they they
00:29:22
never wanted to do it in the first place. And it's not there's not much clear evidence there was there was the
00:29:28
kind of pressure these people are making up. But that said, um this is to this is a counter move to appease the current
00:29:34
administration and then they'll do a counter move if there's another administration doing something like this. So yeah, I don't this is this kind of I
00:29:42
don't know every the most popular platforms in the world
00:29:49
moderate and so the the amount of moderation or lack thereof has become a
00:29:56
bit of a political football or litmus test. So yeah, fine. I don't I don't on
00:30:02
YouTube, on all of these platforms, you can get to pretty dark, ugly content
00:30:07
pretty fast. So I don't, you know, the the free speech, the free speech, if you will, aren't true free speechers. What
00:30:14
they are is they want speech that they feel helps them and they want to they
00:30:19
want to censor speech that they don't. It's right. the people fighting for free speech are generally are the loudest
00:30:25
ones are the ones that actually are are are the sensors. So
00:30:30
agreed, you know, so this is the same administration that wants to tell late night talk show host what to do. So
00:30:37
fine, have it have at it. And what's so disappointing again is that just as I
00:30:44
should have said, okay, I'm going to sacrifice maybe some shareholder value here and do the right thing. I think at some point these
00:30:50
platforms have to say this is our approach to moderation. We're happy to listen to you, but you're not going to
00:30:56
dictate it because free speech is not only Scott, they don't want to moderate. It costs them
00:31:02
money. It gets nothing but headaches. I I I agree with you, but the the
00:31:08
question is everyone moderates. It's it's where it's where it's where the line is. And at some point, you'd like
00:31:14
to think one of these guys is going to say, "This is our policy, and we're sticking with it." Because free speech is not only about letting people say
00:31:21
[ __ ] It's about your right to not say [ __ ] on your platform or take, you know, and board has backed
00:31:28
these companies on this stuff, too. So, the the lack of courage here to do what they want to do, and they just don't
00:31:34
care. They're private companies. I get, but they don't care. They don't care the damage they cause. And it's led by Mark
00:31:40
Zuckerberg in that regard. I I I was so tired of arguing this point with him. Um and he pretended he was a free speech
00:31:47
person. He certainly wasn't. He doesn't really care. He doesn't care. He doesn't care. He doesn't care to run a classy
00:31:52
joint. Anyway, uh let's go on a quick break. When we come back, we'll talk about uh reigniting of the fight over
00:31:58
whether businesses can refuse service. This is a fascinating story. Scott,
00:32:03
we're back with more news. Attorney General Pam Bondi is investigating Office Depot after employees refused to
00:32:08
print a memorial poster for conservative activist Charlie Kirk. She's threatening prosecution for political
00:32:13
discrimination. The company fired the workers, but legal experts say government action would violate the First Amendment since political beliefs
00:32:19
aren't federally protected. The case echoes the Colorado baker who won the Supreme Court uh right to refuse
00:32:25
same-sex wedding services. You didn't want to bake a cake for the gays. Um this is amazing. Again, these people,
00:32:31
they were for that, but against this. And these people can get fired from
00:32:36
Office Depot. That's Office Depot's business if they don't. They can do whatever they want. But these people
00:32:42
don't have to make those signs if they don't want to. And if you believe in the cake thing, at the time of the cake thing, I was like, it did run into some
00:32:48
state rules. Look, if a baker doesn't want to bake a cake for a gay a-sex
00:32:54
wedding, we don't want your shitty cake. I don't know what to say like in this. And it's the same. It's the same. Every
00:33:00
accusation is a confession of these people. They just literally shift and were never really believing in it when
00:33:06
they first did it or they don't believe in it now or I don't know what would you do if you were the CEO of a company with
00:33:11
this problem. Scott, I probably would have fired them. I I think look, it it sucks to be a grown-up
00:33:18
and and it's your right not to do it, but it's that means you're probably not going to get a paycheck because every
00:33:23
day a lot of people show up and when you cash someone else's check, you agreed to do occasionally things you don't want to
00:33:28
do. I think there is a difference though with the bakery and I don't know the semantics of the law, but I think that was refusing service effectively
00:33:36
refusing service based on someone's sexual orientation and I think that is against the law. I
00:33:42
think refuses was in a state but the Supreme Court sided with the cake people with the cake people. Fair enough. Thank
00:33:47
you for that. Whereas this is the moment you say to employees is big and as varied in Office
00:33:54
Depot, you don't have to participate in certain things that offend your
00:34:00
politics. Watch out. Well, these people
00:34:05
uh I'm not going to help this this company buy the lumber for the office
00:34:12
building down the street for the government because I think the government is committing you know war crimes. I just
00:34:19
happened to Google Microsoft it people can listen everybody you can't object you may have a consequence to your
00:34:25
objection is what you're saying you're you know I like what you said you don't want to eat a Chick-fil-A don't eat a Chick-fil-A. You want to you want
00:34:31
to walk out during lunch at Google to show to protest Google working with the
00:34:37
defense department. Good for you. That says [ __ ] nothing. It it's you totally virtue signaling. But if you
00:34:43
start creating making it harder for Google to do their business. The this the leaders of the company get to decide
00:34:50
who they work with and you get to decide if you want to work there or not. Yeah. Exactly. And if you don't want to work on certain
00:34:55
accounts, you can say that. I mean, most people are reasonable and they'll say, "Okay, fine. Whatever. Get
00:35:01
someone else to print the things, but generally speaking, they're at will employees and of and and printing up a
00:35:08
Charlie Kirk poster. There's nothing illegal about it. There's I don't think there's anything wrong about it. If it
00:35:14
offends your sensibilities, okay, I get it. But folks, it sucks to
00:35:19
be a grown-up." Yeah. I just think people should also be able to say no and then reap the consequences. That's all I think they
00:35:25
should be able to say no. There's you can't Pam Bondi saying she's going to prosecute them for political
00:35:30
discrimination. Shut the [ __ ] up, Pam. Stop. Didn't they fire the employees? Yeah, they fired them. That's
00:35:35
what What is she suing them for? I have no idea. She has no right to do so. She has no right to do so.
00:35:42
It's called the First Amendment, Pam. As usual, you don't know what it says for some reason. Even just ridiculous. It's
00:35:49
just ridiculous. Again, ridiculous. Yeah, go for it. Just keep Epstein out of the news.
00:35:54
Keep Epstein, right? Exactly. You know, again, I I probably wouldn't want to do it. I don't know. I don't know about
00:35:59
those signs, but you know, if someone came I was working in an Office Depot and it was like gay people should be
00:36:05
hung or whatever. I wouldn't print them. I think that's different than a Charlie Kirk post, right? I guess. But they can still
00:36:11
decide. You still get to do what you want. You still get to do what you want. And then you re What would you do the CEO? You fire them, right? That's
00:36:18
You fire them. I I respect your political beliefs. when you sign up to work at Office Depot, we all have to
00:36:24
occasionally do [ __ ] we don't want to do. I appreciate your values. Uh but
00:36:30
if we immediately start letting people decide what work they're going to do or not do based on what offends their sense
00:36:35
of political sensibilities, I'm sorry, we can't operate a company that way. Yeah. And
00:36:41
or or you're a company that says, "Sure, you can do that." Right. Right. You look if if somebody if somebody comes in
00:36:48
wearing a swastika or buys a Halloween costume with a swastika or whatever or comes in the
00:36:55
bottom line is you know that's hate speech but is it free speech? I don't know. You serve them, you thank them and
00:37:01
they leave your store. You don't and it sucks. But these things are tested. The whole point of these
00:37:07
protections is they're protected when they're really [ __ ] offensive. And I don't think a Charlie Kirk poster even rises to the level of very offensive. I
00:37:14
don't think we should even decide. If they want to not do it, they should not do it. But they still have to fine. You might get fired. Okay. You may
00:37:20
you may not want to work in a a target that sells beef because you think it's genocide against cows. Fine.
00:37:27
They have the right to say, "Well, no, we're in the we're in the business of selling selling meat. You can't work
00:37:33
here." Right. Right. Exactly. All right, Scott. One more quick break. We'll be back for
00:37:38
predictions. Okay, Scott. Uh let's hear uh prediction. Well, this is where we
00:37:44
are. We're going to see a Time Warner-like acquisition that's going to be unprecedented in scale
00:37:52
and also um a disaster because what you have is you have companies
00:37:58
basically 55% of the gains in the S&P since 2021 have been driven by 10 companies and these car companies are
00:38:06
now so far out over their skis in terms of valuation that it's the equivalent of say you have a preloaded credit card. My
00:38:13
kids have the green light credit card where we load it for them. If you're trading at three or four trillion
00:38:18
dollars in value and you're really smart and you look at, okay, traditionally a company like this would be worth one to one and a half. It's like having $2.5
00:38:26
trillion on your credit card that likely will go away if you don't spend it. And
00:38:31
so I think these companies I think we're going to see, and I said this last week, a series of not only the biggest M&A
00:38:37
deals in history, but I think we're going to see um a company that in 3 to 5 years will
00:38:42
be seen as the most disastrous M&A deal in history. These guys, these guys are absolutely about to go um shopping and
00:38:50
they're just going to get so promiscuous and do so many so many weird things. So many related party transactions. This
00:38:56
Nvidia thing, this OpenAI thing is so strange. But my my um I just wanted to
00:39:02
take a moment um on a tangential issue that has nothing to do with a prediction,
00:39:07
but for those of you I keep getting served uh all of these Instagrams of all
00:39:13
these adorable dogs that are at uh shelters. So, uh, people surrendering their pets,
00:39:20
they're the NASDAQ and the Dow Jones are the worst indices in my opinion in history because they give people the
00:39:25
elucory notion that the economy is fine. The top 10% are now responsible for 50%
00:39:31
of consumer spending. Sales of Hamburger Helper are up, which is a negative
00:39:36
looking forward indicator on the health of the middle and lower income. Uh, pawn shops are booming. There's just a lot of
00:39:43
signals that that the economy is not good on the main street economy. And one of those signals is that people
00:39:50
surrendering their pets has gone way up. And just a quick
00:39:56
just a quick ad for for in terms of mental health, joy, things that are
00:40:01
great for your kids, just generally if you're worried about crime, the literally the best security system you
00:40:08
could ever have is a dog. It teaches your kids about loss, responsibility.
00:40:13
Uh, dogs have been arguably the most accreative thing, maybe next to exercise, the most accreative thing for
00:40:18
my mental health. And these shelters are literally overwhelmed. In addition, my
00:40:25
plug for a rescue dog. I've had purebreds and rescues. Rescues are
00:40:31
rescues and muts are hands down the best breed of dog. They are healthier. They
00:40:37
are happier. It's as if they know they owe you. So there is if you just type in
00:40:42
how to adopt a dog into Google, there are so many shelters that are so
00:40:48
desperate and not only that have so many fantastic dogs right now. So if you're thinking to
00:40:55
yourself, I'd love something that reduces my stress. I'd love something that provides me with a great deal of
00:41:01
additional security. I'm I'm I want to take responsibility for something and
00:41:06
have something that loves me unconditionally. I want to give my kids something that will teach them responsibility and care and love and you
00:41:12
want to feel more mammal and you want to feel more connected and just every day you want consistent tiny bursts of joy
00:41:19
in your life. Think about adopting a dog. There has never been a better time
00:41:24
to adopt a dog cuz there are a ton of wonderful dogs out there. I will add all the dogs I've ever had
00:41:31
have been rescue dogs and I'm thinking of getting another dog soon. Um it's uh it's the wonder most wonderful thing you
00:41:37
do and there's some amazing rescue uh operations going on and it is an
00:41:43
indicator of people giving up dogs means they can't afford them or the difficulty level etc etc and so it is an indicator
00:41:49
but if you can adopt a dog it's a one it's a really it will give it will pay off over and you can go on Instagram and if you
00:41:56
type in the name if you just say shelters in you know Brooklyn you type it into Instagram you will literally see
00:42:01
videos of the dogs that are available you don't even have to go down A dog. Scott, what's that? I'm going to get a dog now.
00:42:07
Oh, you should. They're just I've had a dog my whole life. This is the only time. But my cat's been peeing on the rug, so it's been a little much.
00:42:13
So, you're bringing in a dog to get the cat in shape. No, I just It's just like when when that starts my cat is older. When it starts
00:42:19
to happen, it you sort of like, oh, pets. Um, but I you're right. We should get a dog. Should get a dog. Good one.
00:42:25
Good prediction, Scott. One thing I do want to note, um, here's a prediction. Uh, we talked about I talked about K-pop
00:42:31
Demon Hunters uh on the last show and I got contacted by the creators of the two
00:42:36
directors and they're going to come on on, I think. So, I predict that will be off the charts.
00:42:42
Wow. Take that's very exciting. I know they listen to us. That's cuz we're 23, Scott. Just so you know.
00:42:47
Number 23. Uh, I have one prediction actually um that I think is important. Um, I think
00:42:54
you're going to see a lot of ridiculous deals by the Trump administration here. they are taking VIGs from Nvidia or or
00:43:00
AMD or whoever they're taking VIGs from or Intel buying the pieces of but they'll turn around right now. They want
00:43:06
to give farmers aid. Uh I think Mark Cuban raised something that I thought was absolutely true. If taxpayers funds
00:43:13
this, should the president ask for equity in farms? I say no. But if they're going to be consistent, same with money going to rural hospitals. We
00:43:20
took equity from Intel and and MP. Why shouldn't we do it for all profit companies that get funding? And so I
00:43:26
agree with him. This is ridiculous. Same thing with Argentina. Free Mr. Free Market's going to get a bailout. Like,
00:43:32
give me a [ __ ] break because he's a friend of Trump's. Um, this is Malay in Argentina. This is crap. If they're
00:43:38
going to be doing this to some companies, they have to treat all companies and they're only doing it for their friends. So, you're
00:43:44
cronyism 100%. Um, so anyway, uh, just there's going to be more of this
00:43:50
ridiculous hypocrisy of helping your friends and acting like it's not exactly what it is, which is a handout. We want
00:43:56
to hear from you. Send us your questions about business, tech, or whatever is on your mind, go to nymag.com/pivot
00:44:01
to submit a question for the show or call 8551 pivot. Elsewhere in the Cara and Scott
00:44:06
universe this week, this week on ProfG Conversations, Scott spoke with Dr. Fiona Hill, a senior fellow at
00:44:12
Brookings, really well known for those trials around the the one perfect call. Let's listen to a clip. Look, the
00:44:18
federal government's being dismantled. The states are pretty much on their own right now as well. And you know, I think
00:44:24
the sinking realization is coming in for a lot of people, you know, that this isn't quite what they expected that they
00:44:29
were voting for. They didn't think that all of the safety nets, the insurance policies were going to be removed. And
00:44:34
it's the same in Europe. You know, Europeans absolutely made a huge fundamental error for decades just
00:44:41
relying on the United States and basically outsourcing their security. It was always a mistake and now they've
00:44:47
realized it and they're going to have to do something different. That she's amazing. She's amazing person. Yeah, there's there's very few
00:44:54
people Well, there's very few people that intimidate me. She intimidates me. And by the way, I met one of another
00:44:59
woman who I think is really outstanding, Anna Applebomb. And she is I didn't know this. Fantastic. I've had her on the podcast
00:45:05
many times. Yeah. And uh ironically, I saw this great speech and I met her husband. She's
00:45:11
married to Poland's foreign minister who gave a really powerful speech the other day essentially saying that if Russian
00:45:17
planes are in fact shot down, he hopes that they don't come crying and whining uh to the to the to the UN body.
00:45:24
That was a great speech. Yeah, I love an Apple Bum. She's amazing. Yeah, she's very good. Um but that was a great interview that
00:45:30
you did with Fiona Hill. Um before we go, uh Pivot is nominated for a Signal Award for best thought leadership show.
00:45:36
Scott, we're thought leaders. Yes, that's right. Yes, that's right. We think with our heads with thumbs.
00:45:43
That's right. Malcolm Gladwell and Simon Synynic had sex and gave birth to twins. Karen the dog.
00:45:48
Yeah, I just saw I just saw Malcolm Gladwell, oddly enough. He said, "Hey." Yeah. Um, you can help us win by voting
00:45:55
at the link in the description. The deadline to vote is October 9th. We would like you to stuff the ballot boxes
00:46:02
and make us win because we are 23. Okay. Let's deploy the National Guard to
00:46:07
cities. Exactly. Right. Thank you for uh listening uh to Pivot and be sure to like and subscribe
00:46:13
to our YouTube channel. We'll be back next week. Scott, read us out. Today's show is produced by Laran, Zoe
00:46:19
Marcus, Taylor Griffin, and Kate Gallagher. Ernie Todd engineered this episode. Jim M edited the video. Thanks
00:46:25
also to Jubos, Miss Ao, and Dan Shalon. Nash Kuras, Vox Media's executive producer podcast. Make sure to follow
00:46:31
Pivot on your favorite podcast platform. Thanks for listening to Pivot from New York Magazine and Vox Media. You can subscribe to the magazine at
00:46:37
nymag.com/pod. We'll be back next week for another breakdown of all things tech and business care. Have a great weekend.