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Charles doig is a writer at the New
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Yorker and author of the new book super
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communicators how to unlock the secret
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language of connection welcome Charles
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first of all explain to us what exactly
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is a super Communicator you write in
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this book actually came about when you
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realized you weren't communicating well
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in your marriage so I had this problem
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where I'd come home from work and I
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would complain to my wife about my day
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and she would give me this really good
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advice like you know take your boss out
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to lunch get to know him better and
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instead of being able to hear her I
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would you know get upset and say why
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aren't you supporting me you're supposed
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to be on my side then she would get
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upset cuz I was attacking her for giving
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me good advice and and I wanted to
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understand what was going on and so I
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went out to researchers and I asked them
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you know why am I miscommunicating I'm a
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professional communicator and what they
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said is well look we're living through a
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golden age of understanding
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communication and one of the things that
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we know now is that we think of a
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discussion as being about one thing but
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it's actually many different kinds of
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conversations and in general they tend
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to fall into one or three buckets
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there's practical conversations where
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we're solving problems we're making
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plans together but then there's
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emotional conversations where I tell you
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what I'm feeling and I don't want you to
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solve my feelings I want you to
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empathize and then finally there's
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social conversations about how we relate
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to each other and if you're not having
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the same kind of conversation at the
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same moment that's when you
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miscommunicate I was having an emotional
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conversation my wife was having a
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practical conversation and so we
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couldn't really hear each other I know
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that I know that I'm often in Practical
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I'm always like what's the solution I
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don't really care about the feeling as
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much as the solution which is
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interesting so what how what do you see
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as the main reason I mean of course it's
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hard to like say one reason that people
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people struggle to communicate
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effectively but talk about a few of them
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it it's usually because for a couple of
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reasons first of all that we don't we're
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not having the same kind of conversation
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remember that that wave of like Tech
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CEOs doing layoffs over Zoom so
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obviously when you're laying someone off
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that's an emotional conversation and yet
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they were treating it as a practical
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conversation this is why we're laying
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you off here's the benefits you're going
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to get this is what's best for the
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company somebody hearing that they're
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being that they're losing their job they
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don't want to hear about the
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practicalities they want to hear
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someone who empathizes with them and so
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having the same kind of conversation at
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the same moment is critical another
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thing that's really important is asking
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more questions super communicators ask
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10 to 20 times as many questions as the
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average person and as reporters we know
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this right the power of questions and in
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particularly asking deep questions
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questions that ask me about my values or
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my beliefs or my experiences like if you
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meet someone who's a doctor instead of
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saying where do you practice medicine
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saying oh what made you decide to go to
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medical school that's an invitation for
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them to say something real and then
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finally the thing that super
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communicators do is they prove that
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they're listening they ask follow-up
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questions that show they're paying
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attention they might do this thing
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called looping for understanding where
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they repeat back what they heard you say
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and when we feel listened to that's when
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we become more likely to listen in
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return oh that's an interesting
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technique so that's so what you've just
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said to me is no um no um you're very
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good at it yeah no I'm not do you want
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me to explain it to car yeah yeah that's
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um Scott go for it Mr communic
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ation uh my my you've sort of outlined
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my dad said you know my dad said this to
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me when he uh I was much younger and I
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didn't
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register how important it was or how
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many subtleties to it and it sounds like
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it's a lot of what your themes you was
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used to say communication is with the
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listener can you talk about I something
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I didn't figure out till I was much
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older is the power of Silence just
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looking someone in the eye and make sure
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that you know that that you are not
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waiting to speak that you're you're
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listening to them can you talk about the
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power of silence and sort of
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acknowledging the point if you will
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absolutely creating those spaces for
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silence is critical and and what's
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interesting is that speaking is such a
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cognitively intense activity that often
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times we don't really pay attention to
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how people are acting when we're
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speaking right and so the way that we
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create that silence or we create that
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proof of listening is when they stop
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talking what we do for instance think
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about how powerful it is if if you just
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said something profound and someone says
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wow that gives me a lot of a lot to
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think about let me take a second just to
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think about what you just
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said in that moment what you're really
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doing is you're saying I am listening to
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you I promise I'm listening to you and
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then if you ask a follow-up question or
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if you say here's what I hear you saying
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and tell me if I'm getting this wrong
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what we're doing is we're proving that
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we're listening because you're exactly
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right many people particularly in a hard
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conversation a conflict conversation we
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suspect in the back of our head this
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person isn't listening they're waiting
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their turn to
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speak and we have to prove that that's
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not what's happening and when we do it
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transforms a conversation so so one of
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the thing you just talked about
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reference Zoom communication a lot of
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communication happens on text or video
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or social media which is a very
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different level of Comm which is not
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about listening in any way some of the
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time it is uh but usually it isn't um
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how does technology play into what we're
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writing about because often when Scott
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and I get into Beast it's over as text
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you you know what I mean like I'm
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thinking um which she takes the wrong
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way no one of us gets into a beef the
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other just sits there and what the
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is she Tex me for 3:00 a.m. no but then
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respond Charles I listen I'm the winner
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I'm the super Communicator here I just
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listen in any case uh we always solve it
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when we talk together always even over
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the phone even over a phone which it
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makes a huge difference right it in the
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book there's a story about a CIA officer
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who who's he's a terrible CIA officer
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over to Europe to try and recruit spies
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and he's terrible at his job and he
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learns this lesson which is different
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types of communication have different
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rules and different strengths and
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weaknesses and what's interesting is if
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you look at a hundred years ago when
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phones became popular there were all
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these articles that said no one will
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ever have a real conversation on
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Telephone because you can't see each
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other face to face and at the time they
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were right if you look at early
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transcripts it's people using phones
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like telegraphs or sending stock orders
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and grocery lists to each other but of
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course by the time we're in middle
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school and our kids are we can have
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phone conversations that are some of the
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deepest conversations of our life and
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it's because we learned how to use
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phones and and when you're talking on
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the phone you tend to without realizing
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it overemphasize your words a little bit
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more you put more emotion into your
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voice because you know the person can't
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see your
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expressions and when it comes to digital
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Communications the same thing is true
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there are certain rules if I say
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something sarcastic to you you can hear
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the sarcasm in my voice if I type
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something sarcastic you're going to take
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it seriously and you're going to be
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pissed off
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and so we just have to remind ourselves
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of what those rules are that there's
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some conversations that have to be
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telephone have to be face to face and if
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we do them online then we have to
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overemphasize politeness we have to
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overemphasize emotion we have to
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underemphasize sarcasm what do you who
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are your so first off I think
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storytelling someone asked me what is
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the core confidence you would want to
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give to your kids thinking a lot about
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high school crcs and hands down and I am
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going to buy your book and give it to my
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two sons I think the competence that
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will stand the test of time is
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storytelling you're you're on a podcast
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with two people who made their livings
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storytelling what if if you buy into
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that and you have sons or daughters and
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you want them to become great
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storytellers what what exercises or what
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hacks would you recommend for for
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acquiring it's a great question and the
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first thing to understand is what
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happens when we communicate so when
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we're in a conversation the reason it's
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powerful and and communication is home
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Homo sapiens superpower right it is the
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thing that has set us apart from every
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other species when we're talking to each
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other our bodies start to match each
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other right during this conversation
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without us realizing it our breath
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patterns are matching each other our
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heart rates are starting to align and
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most importantly the neural activity
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that the brain activity that both of us
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have all of us have are starting to
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mirror each other and within neurology
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that's known as neural entrainment and
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when you think about it it makes sense
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because if I describe an emotion to you
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if I if I describe an idea you actually
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experience that idea or that emotion a
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little bit that's what makes it powerful
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and that's our brains aligning so when
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it comes to storytelling the thing to
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keep in mind is my goal is not
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necessarily to tell you the most
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polished story on Earth my goal is to
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take you on a journey with me right many
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people who when they tell stories they
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focus on the beginning and the end but
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it's the middle the journey through the
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middle that makes it a story if you
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think about the movie Cinderella the
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beginning is the parents her father dies
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that's 2 minutes the ending as she lives
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happily ever after that's like 45
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seconds the rest of the movie is the
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middle and when we bring people on that
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Journey we invite them to align with us
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to in to entrain neurologically and
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that's incredibly powerful but when
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people have less of attention obviously
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people have less attention now and
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especially when they're distracted by a
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phone or whatever it happens to be but
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distraction is certainly you know we're
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in a persistent partial attention is
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where we all live now does that affect
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that because it's very hard to have I've
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had many fewer longer C conversations
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than I used to I'm starting to talk like
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I'm starting to Tech you know what I
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mean yeah like you have they're usually
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more logistical and that kind of thing
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what happens in in in that space and can
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people get like you said if you can
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adapt to phones you can adapt to social
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media too how Absol communicate well
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absolutely well and time is less
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important than than authen icity so if I
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tell you that like you know I had this
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incident with my wife and we couldn't
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hear each other and I went to these
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researchers and I talk to them that
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takes me 40 seconds to explain but it's
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a little bit of a story you get to come
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with me you get to Envision me and my
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wife not getting along because that's
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probably something that happens with you
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guys and your wives right never and so
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never never and so what I think what hap
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what happens is that particularly when
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we're on social media if we use social
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media as a way to Simply broadcast to
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scream rather than to interact we'll
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fall into that pattern throughout our
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life because it becomes a habit and so
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the thing to do is to remind ourselves
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that the goal of a conversation is not
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to convince the other person that you
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are right and they are wrong it's not to
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what impress them it's not it's not for
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them to like you the goal of a
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conversation is simply to understand how
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they see the world and speak in a way
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that they understand how you see the
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world and when you hold yourself to that
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standard I'm not going to continue or
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discontinue this conversation until I
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can show try and understand what you're
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saying and help you understand me it
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makes everything healthier can I do a
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followup we're obviously an election
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year it seems like candidates are not
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that doing that it's a Dunk Dunk Dunk no
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one ever listens you know even more so
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than anybody else of of all of all all
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public facing of people they're the
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worst I think is there anyone who's a
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super Communicator that you see on the
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campaign Trail well what's really
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interesting is if you go to rallies and
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and this is true of both Trump and Biden
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and you pay attention to when they get
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off script what they're doing is they're
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proving that they're listen right Trump
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trump you know setting aside what he's
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saying and the craziness coming out of
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his mouth when that audience applauds he
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leans into the Applause he leans into
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whatever he's saying that's why he
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starts saying all these crazy things
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he's proving to them that he's listening
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to them and Biden's doing the same thing
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in his rallies and he's trying to do it
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right now with his public statements
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you're exactly right one of the reasons
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I wrote this book is because we have
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forgotten how to communicate right this
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used to be taught in schools your your
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parents took a course called homech or
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interpersonal relations and as schools
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got more technical it fell out of the
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curriculums but this is important and
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our brain is designed to be amazing at
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communication if we teach it the right
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skills it makes it into a habit very
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quickly and so super communicators is
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about that handful of skills that we
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know helps you connect with other people
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yeah it's interesting I do think you
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learned to communicate without talking I
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I something I've learned of having
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smaller children is we talk a lot but
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not speaking right you know what I mean
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there's a lot of non-communication
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communication happening Scott final
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question yeah just Charles I know very
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little about you do you have kids I do I
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have a a 12-y old and a 15y old oh
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you're you're you're in the midst of it
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you're in your second tour of Iraq in
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Vietnam right anyway so that's exactly
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right what uh how has your study of
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being a super communicator and the best
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and worst practices Chang the way you
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interact with your children it's
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actually transformed it the the first
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thing is that I mentioned that deep
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questions and what that really is is
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it's about asking not about the facts of
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someone's life but how they feel about
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their life and I used to ask my kids
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like how was your day fine did you learn
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anything at school no did you have fun
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no right you guys had this like it's
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it's like pulling teeth to have a
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conversation with them and then I
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started asking instead about the facts
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other day I started ask saying things
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like hey I know that you hung up with
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Jasper after school like what do you
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admire about Jasper why do you like him
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and Suddenly It's like opening this book
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you know my kid is like oh he's very
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courageous what does courage mean well
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he rode his bike off the roof like is
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that courage or what else has he done oh
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it turns out Jasper can talk to girls
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and I prove that I'm listening to them I
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ask them these deep questions about how
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they feel about their life because
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they're experts in that and then I
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repeat back to them I say oh that's
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interesting what do you mean by courage
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I prove to them that I'm paying
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attention that I want to learn from them
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and they're not annoyed by that they're
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not
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no they love it they love it right I
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mean you have older kids K you know like
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when they're
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teenagers they they're they're just
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bursting at the seems to be experts on
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things and to share their expertise with
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you and the the thing they're an expert
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on is their own life yeah that is fair
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true that's true so give us a little
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review here are Scott and I super
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communicators you guys are super
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communicators Park stord and are I mean
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the thing is I've been listening to some
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of the podcasts that you've been doing
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car about um for your book and and the
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thing I love about it is that you go in
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and you have something to say right you
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H you you're coming in not just waiting
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for a question you're coming in with
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something you want to share but at the
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same time you're also listening to that
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host you're interacting with them and
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you guys might not walk away completely
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agreeing with each other but you walk
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away understanding and connecting with
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each other so you guys you guys are
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definitely super and give us one give
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give everybody one quick tip before we
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go what's the one thing you have to do
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the one thing you have to do is today
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ask a question that you wouldn't have
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asked otherwise and make it a question
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that feels to you like it's personal
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like Scott does that well yeah yeah why
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why did you decide to become a
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journalist like what was it like growing
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up wherever you grew up what do you love
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about your
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neighborhood those questions are an
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invitation to someone else to tell you
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who they really are yeah I think I told
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Scott this something Louie does my son
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does he everyone he asks and I've
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borrowed it because I think it works
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really well he he looks at someone he
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doesn't know and he says how's your day
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going and I have to tell you it changes
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Dynamics constantly where we're at
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rather than just rush past them um and
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he actually looks at them and I think
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it's one of those really I was like wow
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that was it works it works it's powerful
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it is very much so anyway Charles doig
00:15:13
super communicators how do unlock the
00:15:15
secret language of connection is out now
