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Kara Swisher: Kash Patel is a “National Security Risk” | Pivot

April 21, 2026 / 01:06:22

Video

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I think Patel is all of the incompetence

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with none of the stature or bravado. I

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just think he looks stupid.

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Let's get into today's news. Scott, FBI

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Director Cash Patel just filed a $250

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million defamation suit against The

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Atlantic over an article he called a

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quote hit piece. It was not a hit piece.

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The Atlantic is calling the suit

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meritless. The story is based on

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interviews with more than two dozen

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current and former officials about

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Patel's time at the FBI. It alleges

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excessive drinking, frequent absences,

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and erratic freakouts, including over

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computer signin. There were reportedly

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multiple times over the past year where

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Patel's security detail had trouble

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waking him because he appeared to be

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intoxicated. One incident involved a

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request for breaching equipment, the

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kind a SWAT team use, uh, after Patel

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was unreachable behind locked doors. it.

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This is all true, everybody. It's

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repulsive when you read it. So, what do

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you think's happening here? What's going

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on? And as to the lawsuit,

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>> look, I I think The Atlantic, my sense

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is this is thoughtful reporting and his

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It seems like his drinking is sort of an

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open secret. It's not about alcoholism

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in my view. It's incompetence. I I don't

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doubt that the alcohol hurts them. But

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generally speaking, this is an

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incompetent person

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>> who has lacks judgment, doesn't show up

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for work on time,

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>> panics, you know, he's so skittish. He

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thinks that he thinks that he's not um

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that he's being fired. I don't mind you

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drinking during the week night if you

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work for me, but be at work the next

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morning. And if you're not drinking and

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you don't show up at work, it doesn't

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matter. It doesn't matter why you aren't

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showing up for work. This guy doesn't

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appear to be showing up.

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>> Right. Right. totally focused on this

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was alleging that drinking had a lot to

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do with it is he drinks so much he

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drinks to excess that he doesn't he's

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also it creates a national security risk

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which is I think why all these people

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are leaking right it's not because

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>> they dislike him but he also is a huge

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national security risk he's also abusing

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his privileges very Christine gnome here

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right this is the version of Christy

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Gnome and obviously it's sort of who's

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going to Christy who's going to take him

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down right

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>> well I like the idea him and Axather

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They're now referred to as the liquor

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cabinet. That's a good one.

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>> Yeah, there was a good one. They said a

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defense secretary, uh, FBI head and a

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lead prosecutor go into a bar. Oh, wait.

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That happens every day. It was for

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Janine Pro is the other one they were

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talking about. This group is really kind

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of just like so not in control of

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themselves. Let me just say the LA the

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one thing that really was the most

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disturbing in that entire story was that

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he then will try to do something to

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please Trump. like try to prosecute

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people who prosecuted January 6th people

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or do election denial. He's going to try

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to serve up like a little a little mouse

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to Trump in order to save his job. And

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the only thing that Trump hates is

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drinking cuz his brother was an

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alcoholic and died. Um but it'll be

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interesting if Trump will not fire him

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because of this piece, if that makes

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sense.

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>> Yeah. My first girlfriend was um Mexican

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and an alcoholic and I she used to order

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drinks called um and I asked her what

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her favorite book was and she said

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tequila mockingb bird.

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>> Oh my god. Okay. Well, anyway, do you

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think Trump will fire him?

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>> Very good, isn't it?

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>> I think Trump's going to fire he's going

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to fire a couple of these people.

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>> Three guys walking into a bar. An

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alcoholic, a priest, and a child

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molester.

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>> And that's just the first guy.

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>> All right. All right. I need your

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thoughts on whether Trump's going to

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fire him. All right, we're done with the

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drunk jokes. Go ahead.

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>> Is he going to fire?

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>> Okay. According according to Okay.

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>> What did you just What did you just

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really

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>> Okay, go ahead.

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>> Everything. Um I no longer think for

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myself. Um so, get this. According to

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according to Kelsey, there's now a

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something like a 70 or 80% chance that

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um Patel is fired by June 1st. The other

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one that just blew my mind, which I

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would take the over under on or whatever

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you call it,

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>> that there's about a 70% chance that

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Trump is impeached by January 1st.

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>> Oh,

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>> no. That Trump is impeached.

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>> Oh, wow. So these markets are saying

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these markets are predicting that um the

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wheels are coming off uh the bus here

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which you know I find uh really unlikely

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here.

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>> What does Scott Galloway think? Not

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Cali.

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>> Oh, Patel's out. But I've thought that

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for a while. I think he reflects poorly.

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I I think Hagath the president likes

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because when He Hagsth gets up on stage

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he is so strident. He's very handsome. I

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think that uh Trump really values

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aesthetics. He's indignant. He's back in

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their face. I think Trump really likes

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that. And he's very resolute.

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Trump doesn't like thoughtfulness. He

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likes someone who's resolute. And I

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think he kind of likes that sort of

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brazen, arrogant approach. I think Patel

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is all of the incompetence with none of

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the stature or bravado. I just think he

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looks stupid

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>> and he's making the Trump administration

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look stupid. And also it it feels like

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and I mean you know this better than me

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but it feels like everyone at the FBI is

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dying to get on the phone with a

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reporter and [ __ ] post Patel. Uh it just

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seems like the whole I mean there's

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there's been such an I think the two

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biggest brand erosions over the last 12

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months have been number one the brand US

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number two the brand AI. If you think

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about what's happened to that brand in

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the last 12 months, it's gone from 70 to

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80% people being optimistic to like now

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it's one in 10 are optimistic.

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But the the brand of the FBI, I would

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argue the Gmen, you know, the X-Files,

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um, these were pe these were people that

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put on suits but knew how to handle a

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firearm. We're very measured. We're all

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about serving in the agency of others.

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We're optimized for security, not for

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performance. or not for attention. This

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was a great job with a ton of prestige

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and I think Cash Patel has literally

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trashed this brand.

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>> He's turned it into a Joey bag of

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donuts.

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>> Y

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>> uh you know, two for one coyote ugly MMA

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meets, you know, it's like a it's like a

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bar fight minus the charm.

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>> Yep. All right. All right. Well, he's

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out. I agree with you.

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>> What are your thoughts?

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>> I think he's going I think this was a

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beautiful piece of reporting and I think

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they're going to go through the cabinet

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with next is Lutnik and his corruption,

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right? that's going to and his like

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thirsty attention seeking. Anyway, we'll

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see. I think there's there's it's a

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moment now, especially after Swallwall.

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It's a moment for all of them.

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>> How does the head of the FBI have their

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email hacked by an Iranian group? Right.

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>> How does that happen?

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>> He's drunk.

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>> How does that happen?

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>> Cuz he's drunk. Cuz he's drinking too

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much. Cuz he's an idiot. Well, idiot and

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drunk. He's stupid. You remember the

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line from Minimal House? Don't How can

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you? Although that was done by Dean

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Wormer, but going through life stupid

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and drunk is not is no way to live or

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something like that. Anyway, that's

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>> when someone asked me if when someone

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asked me if I ever drink in the morning,

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I'm like, "No, cuz I don't wake up till

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noon."

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>> Oh my god. Okay, enough with the

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drinking drugs. Iran is threatening to

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retaliate after the US military seized

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an Iranian flagged um cargo ship trying

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to bypass the blockade in the Straight

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of Hormuz. Iran is calling it an act of

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piracy. Meanwhile, JD Vance, Steve Whit,

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and Jared Kushner are headed back to P

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Pakistan for more peace talks, though

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it's unclear if Iran will even show up.

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Uh, first JD wasn't going, then he was

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going, and Trump was saying all manner

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of things. Trump's, of course, is once

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again threatening to take out Iran's

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power plants and bridges, which I know

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it feels like Groundhog Day, but he's

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doing it again. The ceasefire is due to

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end this week. Um, I'll also note energy

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secretary Chris Wright thinks gas prices

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might stay above $3 until 2027, though

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Trump is saying that's totally wrong.

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California was six. It was crazy. It was

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six or in the mid sixes, which is

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because they have more taxes there

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obviously. But, um, any thoughts what's

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happening here? Because it seems like

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again still they still haven't gotten

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their act together. This gang that can't

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shoot straight.

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There's so many things that are bubbling

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up in terms of incompetence and

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institutions in a general approach to

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government that took immense resources

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that Americans have taken for granted.

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And one of those things is our

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incredible diplomatic core. We gutted

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the diplomats. We gutted the

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anti-terrorist group. So

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when you have these summits or peace

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talks, 95 to 98% of the work is done

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done before the person lands on the

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ground. And that's the problem is 0% has

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been done here. He might as well. He

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This is the most It is so easy to

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predict nothing is going to come out of

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this. And I was uh you know I I've been

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saying that masculinity a decent proxy

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for masculinity is are you optimizing

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for attention versus service? If so,

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that's the opposite of masculinity. That

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defines this ridiculous trip to

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Pakistan. There's been no diplomatic

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work done. He's going to land. He's

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going to make an indignant speech. He's

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going to look for a Tik Tok moment that

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he attempts to make him look make

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himself look presidential. He'll make

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further irresponsible, incendiary,

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unnecessary comments. He'll leave and

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nothing will have happened. And you

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know, the the only other what I've been

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thinking a lot about lately is kind of

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the winners and losers here.

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Initially, China is a loser because of

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the the security threat around not

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having the free flow of energy. They are

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such a big winner long term because I

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was thinking about how does the world

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structurally change on the demand side.

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You got to think that in addition to the

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economic costs of the Straits of Hormuz

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being um sequestered or blocked, every

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nation in the world must be thinking,

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you know, we don't want to be dependent

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upon [ __ ] straits that can be

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controlled by the IRGC or by Trump.

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>> By the way, there's

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there's a couple there's a really good

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online um thing that was about there's

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not just the straits of Hormuz. There's

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an area near China that 40% of the

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shipping goes through. There's a number

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of places around the world where this

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happens. the straight of Malikica or

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Singapore, the Sewish Canal.

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>> Right. Exactly.

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>> Freedom of navigation.

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Again, see above things we've taken for

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granted. Freedom of navigation was

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something that had been embraced by the

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entire world that said everyone's going

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to pay more. Everyone's going to have

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insecure energy policy if we don't

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enforce freedom of navigation around the

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world. But you got to think that every

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nation is thinking not only

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economically, but from a defense

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standpoint, we need to have energy

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security. What is all roads and energy

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security lead to one place? Renewables.

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And let's talk about renewables. The

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advanced manufacturing and long-term

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thinking of China. Get this. What is the

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global share that China controls of

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windmill production? Any guesses?

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>> No, probably a lot. All of it.

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>> A lot. Correct. 60%.

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>> Mhm.

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>> The percentage of EVs sold glo globally?

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>> China.

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>> 70%.

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>> Yeah.

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>> China. the percentage of solar panels

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produced in the world

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>> drones

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>> 80% in China.

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>> So while we're sending diplomatic

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missions and Canada's announcing they're

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divorcing from us because we're an

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absentee irresponsible player in the

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marriage, China is using advanced

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manufacturing to say, "Okay, long-term

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everyone's going to start investing in

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renewables and we're going to be the

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place they come to buy it all." And

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they're not only offering the

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manufacturing and the products, they're

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offering safe distribution. They're

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offering financing for these things and

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they're saying you can count on us. So

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if you don't want to be subject to the

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IRGC or President Trump's whims that

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day, enter into an economic relationship

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with China.

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>> Yeah, I agree. I agree. Anyway, it's a

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real it's it's just this is this is not

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good from a political point of view,

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from a world point of view. And a lot of

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like there's a lot of very high level

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people predicting a real collapse of

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lots of of countries in terms of because

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of the slowdowns and the problems that

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they're just on the edge. I mean the UAE

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was asking for some money. This is they

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have to solve this yesterday. They

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shouldn't have done it in the first

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place but now they have to solve it

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yesterday because there's a lot of other

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c all these countries are

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interconnected. Whether you like it or

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not MAGA folks, this is how it works.

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And you're going to you're going to see

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collapses all around if the UAE is

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asking for what what do they want? They

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need money is really because of the

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situation. All these luxury brands

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throughout the Middle East and that's

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just small small ball. It's like all

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these countries are dependent on this.

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And so he is reordering the world for

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sure, but not in the way that favors the

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United States. Uh and of course they're

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sending this team of Wickoff. Steve

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Wickoff. Honestly, this is not our best

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and brightest with Jared Kushner, Steve

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Wickoff, and JD Vance.

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>> If you want to understand what's going

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to happen to negotiate with Wickoff,

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just ask how is he going to get his kids

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rich? Like what? That's essentially what

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is driving

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>> such a negotiations. But you brought up

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something you brought up something

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really important and that it's the UAE

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and something that really shocked me. I

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was looking at analysis of projectiles

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that have come out of Iran. Do you

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realize that Iran has shot more

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projectiles at the UAE than Israel?

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And you know, the UAE really is a model

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of what it means to not be the IRGC.

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It's they they have built an

00:13:25

unbelievable modern economy. They

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respect alliances. They in many ways are

00:13:30

trying to be more progressive around

00:13:32

around civil rights. They have made real

00:13:34

progress around um uh around women's

00:13:38

rights. They are everything that the

00:13:40

IRGC is not. And it's interesting that

00:13:43

of all the nations

00:13:45

um the IRGC has decided to go after the

00:13:47

UAE u most aggressively. That really

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surprised me. More projectiles into the

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UAE than Israel.

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>> But they're asking they said they're

00:13:55

going to be forced to use Chinese money

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or other currencies if they don't they

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don't get a financial lifeline. This is

00:14:00

just and that's just one country.

00:14:02

There's so many that are just going to

00:14:03

be affected. And then let me just say

00:14:06

lots and lots of people live daytoday in

00:14:09

this country and cannot afford these

00:14:11

prices, these gas prices. And so with

00:14:13

Chris Wright just half-hazardly saying,

00:14:15

I'll stay above three and it's even

00:14:17

above three. It's above four in DC. It's

00:14:19

above like give me a [ __ ] break. It

00:14:21

was six in in this is just these

00:14:24

cavalier [ __ ] And then that that

00:14:26

smiling idiot Kevin Hassid gets on and

00:14:29

acts like it's no big deal. There's

00:14:31

something really broken about these

00:14:33

people that is just doesn't understand

00:14:35

the implications of anything they do.

00:14:37

Anyway, uh we have to go on a quick

00:14:39

break. When we come back, we'll talk

00:14:40

about Joe Rogan's influence on executive

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00:17:00

Scott, we're back with more news. Trump

00:17:02

signed an executive order fast-tracking

00:17:03

FDA review of psychedelic drugs like

00:17:05

psilocybin and I think it's ibogane for

00:17:08

mental health treatment all thanks to a

00:17:10

text from Joe Rogan. Rogan texted Trump

00:17:12

about Ibagain research in reducing

00:17:14

opioid addiction. And the president

00:17:16

immediately replied, "Sounds great. Do

00:17:17

you want FDA approval? Let's do it." The

00:17:19

order directs the FDA to expedite review

00:17:22

of the breakthrough therapy and

00:17:23

encourage data sharing between the

00:17:24

health and veterans affairs department.

00:17:27

Um, you know, honestly, this look,

00:17:30

Rogan's been turning on Trump and this

00:17:32

was a gimme to Joe Rogan. I I as you

00:17:35

know, I talk about psych use of

00:17:37

psychedelics in this series. It's very

00:17:39

promising, but certainly shouldn't be

00:17:40

expedited cuz some some podcaster who

00:17:44

has very not the best information

00:17:47

because they need to do the safety

00:17:48

checks if these things are going to be

00:17:50

good for people. Um, but if I mean, what

00:17:54

would you text Trump for? what would you

00:17:56

like if you could? But this is how it's

00:17:58

done in this country. He texts him, he

00:18:00

wants him back. It's the most thirsty

00:18:03

and thirsty way to get Rogan's approval.

00:18:06

And Rogan is dumb enough to take it and

00:18:09

then shift on these things that he cared

00:18:11

about allegedly war and um the Epstein

00:18:15

things. So the whole thing is just

00:18:17

demented. I thought this was the most

00:18:19

demented thing given how important this

00:18:21

psychedelic research should be taken

00:18:24

throughout this country. your thoughts?

00:18:27

>> Well, I gain is is the there's real

00:18:30

potential here. A Stanford study found a

00:18:32

single Ibagane dose reduced veterans

00:18:34

disability ratings from 30.2 to 5.1 with

00:18:37

effects sustained at least a month out.

00:18:39

>> Almost nine and 10 participants

00:18:41

experienced um a reduction in PTSD

00:18:44

symptoms. Nine and 10 uh decrease in

00:18:47

depression. 8 and 10 reducing anxiety.

00:18:50

So, this has real potential. This is

00:18:54

this is a great move, but here's the

00:18:56

problem. This is

00:18:56

>> they've been running they've been

00:18:57

running this for a year. They could have

00:18:59

done this a year ago, but go ahead. Go

00:19:00

ahead.

00:19:02

>> Well, okay. So, I'm a big believer in

00:19:04

prison reform. I think they're we're the

00:19:06

most incarcerated nation in the world.

00:19:07

And I think that a hugely accreative

00:19:09

move would be uh early prison release

00:19:13

and a review of of people who are

00:19:16

currently incarcerated. And when the

00:19:18

Trump administration decides that it

00:19:20

would be great to have the Kardashian on

00:19:21

boards and she she takes this on as an

00:19:24

issue, they then get a pardon.

00:19:27

>> He does these things, but he doesn't for

00:19:29

political reasons and they're not

00:19:30

systemic in nature. And when it comes to

00:19:32

the when it comes to taking something

00:19:34

from a class 2 or class one drug,

00:19:36

>> I want someone who has domain expertise.

00:19:38

I want correct double blind tests. I

00:19:40

think the again another thing we have

00:19:42

taken for granted here is the good

00:19:45

people at the CDC, our FDA, uh, double

00:19:48

blind studies, doctors with actual

00:19:51

credentials. I mean, they do they do a

00:19:53

really good job. It's been a huge, uh,

00:19:55

benefit to us economically. The drugs

00:19:58

you take are, you know, they they do

00:20:00

mistakes, but you can feel fairly

00:20:02

certain that if you take something

00:20:03

that's FDA approved, it's approved for

00:20:05

>> it's also too slow. absolutely too slow

00:20:08

on these therapies, but they're still

00:20:10

early. And the fact that this very not

00:20:14

smart podcaster who's very lovely in

00:20:16

some ways and nutty in some ways and but

00:20:18

doesn't operate in a factual environment

00:20:20

all the time is getting to get this

00:20:24

because he's was mean to Trump and was

00:20:26

turning on him and then for the next

00:20:28

couple of months he'll be nice to Trump,

00:20:30

right? The whole thing is just grotesque

00:20:33

in the This is not how we need

00:20:35

>> health policy.

00:20:36

>> This is not health policy. That's

00:20:37

correct. It's not legal policy. It's

00:20:41

it's it's purely political. And for

00:20:42

Rogan to get used like this on an

00:20:44

important issue, maybe if it's important

00:20:46

to him, he should demand that Trump not

00:20:49

not just cuz he can go to the Oval

00:20:51

Office and hug Trump, but it's just just

00:20:53

oh god, it could hurt veterans if it's

00:20:56

not done correctly. The whole Yay. Just

00:21:00

And it's, by the way, it's also going to

00:21:01

take this.

00:21:03

>> It's also going to take forever anyway.

00:21:05

>> Let's play the game. Let's be

00:21:07

increasingly mean and grow our platform

00:21:09

10x. And then what is the one thing you

00:21:11

want from Trump? What is the one policy

00:21:13

you would want from Trump?

00:21:14

>> $25 minimum wage.

00:21:17

>> Oh, I love that.

00:21:18

>> Universal health.

00:21:19

>> I love that.

00:21:21

>> Child care. Universal child care. All

00:21:23

those things. Any of those.

00:21:24

>> Check. Check. Check.

00:21:26

>> Mhm. What about you? Besides,

00:21:29

>> besides like a missile,

00:21:33

>> um, uh, I would want

00:21:37

mandatory national service.

00:21:39

>> Oh, I like that.

00:21:40

>> Um, distribution of GLP1 to any

00:21:44

household with less than $50,000

00:21:47

>> in household income

00:21:49

>> with good medical stuff attached to it,

00:21:51

nutritional.

00:21:53

>> That's right. and uh incremental like

00:21:56

you said, singlepayer

00:21:58

um health coverage and oh gosh, I could

00:22:01

I could I mean

00:22:03

>> I could go on and lower the estate tax

00:22:05

exemption to 1 million. There's going to

00:22:07

be $72 trillion in wealth passed on.

00:22:09

We're not a dynastic population. We're

00:22:11

meritocratic population and we need to

00:22:13

tax

00:22:14

>> inherited wealth.

00:22:15

>> Really?

00:22:15

>> Anyways, I got about another 15.

00:22:17

>> Okay. Well, there we go. We're not We

00:22:19

don't have his I know. Actually, I could

00:22:20

probably get Trump's cell phone.

00:22:22

>> Let's get on it. Let's be a pain in the

00:22:23

ass.

00:22:23

>> I'm serious. Why don't we do an

00:22:24

experiment? Say, "This is Scott

00:22:26

Galloway. I would like you to do an

00:22:27

executive order on Young Men or whatever

00:22:29

the [ __ ] you want. I'm going to get his

00:22:31

cell phone. You're going to text him."

00:22:32

Okay, you're doing it.

00:22:34

>> I think it's getting I think it's

00:22:35

getting the wiring information of

00:22:37

someone in his family and sending a few

00:22:39

million dollars. I'm serious. I think

00:22:41

there's a direct pipeline. I've heard

00:22:44

>> I've heard from cred credible resources

00:22:46

around around specific things around

00:22:49

pardons and trying to get funding for

00:22:51

certain things that there's an entire

00:22:53

infrastructure consultants who launder

00:22:56

the money get it to the Trump

00:22:57

administration and you get [ __ ] passed.

00:22:59

This is and to be clear what they would

00:23:02

say is this has always been going on.

00:23:04

We're just more we're less we're more

00:23:05

transparent about it.

00:23:06

>> No, not like this. I'm going to get his

00:23:09

number. You're going to text him. Okay.

00:23:10

That's what we're doing this week. Okay.

00:23:12

Um,

00:23:12

>> I was invited to the UFC fight at the

00:23:14

White House.

00:23:14

>> You need to go. You need to go. You need

00:23:16

to say yes. I just

00:23:17

>> You need to cidle up to him and like

00:23:20

>> pet him.

00:23:21

>> I don't like watching young men beat

00:23:22

each other up.

00:23:23

>> I don't look at that part. Just go pet

00:23:24

Trump. That's what you need to do and

00:23:26

get universal healthcare for everybody.

00:23:28

>> You need to do it. You need to go in

00:23:30

there. I They're not inviting me. Even

00:23:32

though Did you hear about this study?

00:23:34

This this thing,

00:23:36

>> the influencers.

00:23:38

>> Oh. Oh, it's really interesting. So,

00:23:40

there's a poll that Ipsos did um about

00:23:43

influencers essentially and um I am the

00:23:46

most purple. I first of all, I'm in the

00:23:49

top influencers, which is weird. I'm up

00:23:50

there with Candace Owen and Tucker

00:23:52

Carlson and all manner of people, but

00:23:54

I'm the most purple.

00:23:56

>> You're the most centrist.

00:23:58

>> Yes. I don't think the word is I think

00:24:00

it's independent. Like I I don't know

00:24:03

cuz they don't all agree, right? But in

00:24:05

terms of impact shock, I'm shocked that

00:24:07

I was even in these lists, but

00:24:09

independence love Swissard. It's weird.

00:24:12

It's so weird. But it's good. Good.

00:24:14

That's very exciting.

00:24:15

>> Which means that I should be at the OC

00:24:17

fight cuz I'd actually enjoy it. But you

00:24:19

need to go.

00:24:19

>> You're an influencer. We got to take you

00:24:21

to Coachella and just have you take

00:24:22

pictures and not enjoy the music.

00:24:23

>> I'm surprised you didn't go to

00:24:24

Coachella. But listen, this is what you

00:24:27

have to do. You have to take one for the

00:24:28

team or you're going to You also have to

00:24:29

text Trump because he's not taking my

00:24:31

texts even though I am the person who's

00:24:33

the most represents the independents

00:24:35

apparently, which is ridiculous cuz I'm

00:24:37

really liberal.

00:24:38

>> Influence.

00:24:39

>> Yeah, but I'm really liberal, which is

00:24:40

kind of funny. Um, all right. The NSA is

00:24:43

using Anthropics uh mythos even after

00:24:45

the Department of Defense called the

00:24:47

company a supply chain risk. Um,

00:24:49

Anthropic CEO Dario Emodi met with the

00:24:52

White House officials on Friday to work

00:24:54

towards a compromise to bring the

00:24:55

company's technology back to government

00:24:56

use. Both sides described the meeting as

00:24:58

productive. However, when President

00:25:00

Trump was asked about Emod's visit, he

00:25:01

said he had no idea about the meeting.

00:25:03

He was meeting with Susie Wilds. If a

00:25:05

compromise is reached would likely

00:25:06

exclude the Pentagon because Pett Heath

00:25:09

is a [ __ ] and so is Emil Michael who

00:25:12

works for him. Um, so it's again it's

00:25:15

like everyone everyone I have talked to

00:25:17

in the other departments think the HEG

00:25:20

thing is insane and that they want to

00:25:23

use it because it's a better model. So

00:25:24

the NSA wants to use it um and

00:25:27

everything else. And it's just it's kind

00:25:29

of ridiculous that Amodi has to go hat

00:25:31

in hand to deal with these children. And

00:25:34

by the way, over at Open AI, more kind

00:25:36

of problems. The company lost three

00:25:38

executives on Friday. The leader of the

00:25:39

defunct Sora, the VP of Open AI for

00:25:42

science, who used to work for Twitter,

00:25:44

Kevin Wild, and the company's CTO for

00:25:47

B2B applications. Um, so they're losing

00:25:51

there's a lot of it's more it's more um

00:25:54

dramatic than Google back in the day or

00:25:56

Twitter. It just it's really quite a

00:25:58

dramatic little company. Um, so any

00:26:01

thoughts on anthropic or open AI again?

00:26:04

>> Well, you know, history or the world

00:26:08

hates a vacuum and one of the biggest

00:26:10

vacuums or voids right now that's

00:26:12

creating chaos is the vacuum around

00:26:13

regulation and guardrails around AI. And

00:26:16

when Dario Emote, who is supposed to be

00:26:19

head of a private company charged with

00:26:20

just using every tool in his toolkit

00:26:22

possible to create leverage and margin

00:26:25

for shareholders, gets so worried about

00:26:27

something that he pulls it back and I'm

00:26:29

not, you know, and says he's only going

00:26:30

to give it to JP Morgan and Apple, you

00:26:32

know, the good guys. Um, and you'd like

00:26:35

to think he's sincere about it and he's

00:26:38

generally concerned, but he shouldn't be

00:26:40

making those calls. If we're trusting or

00:26:43

hoping that the US and existential

00:26:44

threats are going to be dependent upon

00:26:46

the kindness and wisdom of CEOs, we are

00:26:48

[ __ ] because these people have so many

00:26:51

incentives and pressure to just deliver

00:26:54

value.

00:26:54

>> I was with some people and they're like,

00:26:55

"Amod's good." I'm like, "It's a low

00:26:57

[ __ ] bar." And I don't still don't

00:26:59

want him to decide. And still, you know,

00:27:02

even at this point anyway,

00:27:05

But in the one of millions of text

00:27:07

chains that get copied on between you

00:27:08

and Rom, I was going to suggest to Rahm

00:27:11

and any other Democratic presidential

00:27:13

candidate, I was actually going to uh

00:27:15

for some reason I think John Oaf is and

00:27:17

you wrote about this is giving off real

00:27:19

presidential energy right now. But I

00:27:20

think the opportunity among a Democratic

00:27:23

candidate right now quite frankly is to

00:27:24

have a very thoughtful get some

00:27:26

academics together and have a very

00:27:27

thoughtful

00:27:29

10page or less summarized in a one or

00:27:31

two page cover um summary is uh

00:27:36

regulation for AI. Do you realize no

00:27:38

one's even proposing what it would mean?

00:27:41

What does it look like? How do you

00:27:43

regulate it? What is it about security?

00:27:45

Is it about privacy? Is it about how do

00:27:48

you thread the needle between regulation

00:27:50

and also m letting our thoroughbreds run

00:27:52

such that China does not get out ahead

00:27:54

of us which is a legitimate concern. Who

00:27:56

running for president i.e. You know,

00:27:59

everyone has put out anything thoughtful

00:28:02

that has said, I mean, Senator Warner

00:28:05

has put out something with Senator Holly

00:28:07

about retraining and trying to support

00:28:09

job destruction, but no one has really

00:28:12

put out a thoughtful, you know, 3, five,

00:28:14

12point plan on this is what we should

00:28:17

implement immediately in by executive

00:28:19

order that lets the economic growth run

00:28:22

mostly. It'll cost some economic growth,

00:28:25

but gives people some level of certainty

00:28:27

that the government has some feel around

00:28:30

the risks here and outlines them. But

00:28:32

there's nothing right now. It's just the

00:28:34

wild west. And that vacuum is being

00:28:35

filled by a bunch of arguments, virtue

00:28:38

signaling, false signals, comms

00:28:41

releases, press releases. So the vacuum

00:28:44

is being filled by chaos around

00:28:46

something that people aren't sure. Is it

00:28:49

a big threat? Is it is it not? And it

00:28:51

really hurts the industry cuz see above

00:28:53

>> it's gone from nine and 10 people being

00:28:55

optimistic about this to one in 10.

00:28:57

>> Yeah, they've really [ __ ] it up. And

00:28:58

it's not the fault of like me

00:29:00

complaining that I I got that from one

00:29:02

of them. It's like it's cuz you're so

00:29:04

negative. I'm like get the [ __ ] out of

00:29:05

here. Like it's not our fault. You I

00:29:08

said that. That's what I actually said.

00:29:09

>> I'm an influencer.

00:29:11

>> I'm in a big in the indies agree with

00:29:13

you're right. It's worse by the way.

00:29:15

>> Influencer.

00:29:16

>> But um it was so weird.

00:29:19

Anyway, um it's just they have done it

00:29:22

to themselves. They've done it to

00:29:24

themselves because they're so and you

00:29:26

know what drove me crazy then you get

00:29:28

not this this isn't isn't an AI company

00:29:31

but it's all stuck in there Palanteer

00:29:32

posting its manifesto on X over the

00:29:34

weekend which one outlet it was points

00:29:37

from Alex Karps the CEO's book the

00:29:39

technological republic one outlet

00:29:41

likened it to the ramblings of a comic

00:29:43

book villain and the points include

00:29:45

postwar neutering of Germany and Japan

00:29:47

must be undone I mean it's already been

00:29:49

undone you dumbass we should applaud

00:29:52

those who attempt to build where the

00:29:54

market failed to act and we must resist

00:29:56

shallow temptation of vacant and hollow

00:29:58

pluralism. The whole thing is just so I

00:30:01

need them to shut up. I need all the AI

00:30:04

people to shut up even the good ones and

00:30:06

just like like put in good things in

00:30:09

place because they literally have they

00:30:11

keep shooting themselves in the foot

00:30:13

about a technology that's possibly

00:30:15

dangerous, possibly amazing and

00:30:18

everybody hates it, right? Everyone

00:30:20

who's normal hates it, not them. And

00:30:22

then they blame us for that. So

00:30:25

>> yeah, I don't get it. I know I I

00:30:26

consider myself an influencer, but I

00:30:28

suffer from paranoia. I believe that

00:30:30

nobody is following me.

00:30:32

>> Can I ask you if you went in there to

00:30:33

them? They said, "Scott Galloway, we

00:30:36

need we need you to fix this. What would

00:30:39

be your first three moves? Mr. Brand,

00:30:41

we're having you in. We're paying you a

00:30:43

bajillion dollars." Because they have

00:30:45

>> Yeah. The AI companies are like, "Look,

00:30:47

>> AI

00:30:48

>> people [ __ ] hate us."

00:30:49

>> Yeah. I'd want to I'd want to

00:30:50

>> three things

00:30:51

>> I'd want to assemble a list of

00:30:53

technologists, ethicists, and economic

00:30:56

adviserss. And I'd want I would demand a

00:30:58

30-day uh period where no model, no

00:31:01

updated model is ever released without

00:31:02

thorough review that that AB tests the

00:31:05

[ __ ] out of the thing in terms of

00:31:06

existential risks. And it has if the FD

00:31:10

if it takes [ __ ] a decade to get a

00:31:12

drug through the FDA,

00:31:13

>> right? Exactly.

00:31:14

>> Why wouldn't we mandate that the

00:31:15

government gets to play with any new

00:31:17

model for 30 days?

00:31:18

>> Mhm. and then says, "We have found that

00:31:20

this could absolutely hack the NSA or

00:31:23

even our nuclear launch codes."

00:31:26

>> So, you need to tweak the following

00:31:27

things. We're going to assemble a blue

00:31:29

ribbon panel. Anyone on this panel

00:31:31

>> will be paid a lot of money, have

00:31:33

tremendous prestige, and by the way, for

00:31:35

3 years, there's a sunshine period, and

00:31:36

you cannot go on the board of any of

00:31:37

these companies because we don't want

00:31:39

you trading off speaking engagements in

00:31:42

and stock options for security. But at a

00:31:45

minimum, we should have a 30-day

00:31:48

screening blue, you know, blue ribbon

00:31:50

panel that includes Europeans, that

00:31:52

includes G6 nations, that includes stock

00:31:54

market analysts and say, "Okay, there

00:31:56

has to be a balance between safety and

00:31:58

economic growth." Instead, it's just

00:32:00

like put it out there and see what

00:32:02

happens.

00:32:02

>> I know. What from a marketing, if you

00:32:05

were doing an ad, what would it be? We

00:32:07

know we suck or what?

00:32:10

>> What what's the message

00:32:11

>> for for

00:32:12

>> for the AI companies?

00:32:16

Oh, but here's the bottom line, Cara.

00:32:17

The markets love a winner. The the worst

00:32:19

thing that's happening to Sam Alman

00:32:21

right now is he's proving himself to be

00:32:22

a not a great CEO and he's let Anthropic

00:32:26

literally leaprog him. The markets are

00:32:28

immoral. Open uh Anthropic is going to

00:32:31

get out at a trillion dollar plus

00:32:32

valuation because it is executing like

00:32:34

no one's business and Co-work is on

00:32:37

fire. They are doing such a great job. I

00:32:40

think Daario is managing his brand

00:32:43

fairly well. I think if I were Daario

00:32:45

and I think he's going to do this given

00:32:46

that he god I can't imagine has much on

00:32:48

his own plate. I would I would almost I

00:32:51

don't want to say circumvent the

00:32:52

government but I would be putting

00:32:53

together an industry consortium across

00:32:56

all of them and saying these are our

00:32:58

recommendations.

00:32:59

>> Yeah.

00:32:59

>> And even critics trying to thoughtful.

00:33:03

>> Yeah. I will

00:33:04

>> I would also offer a bunch of LLMs for

00:33:06

free to researchers and academics and

00:33:08

say have at it. We think this could cure

00:33:10

cancer. Have at it.

00:33:11

>> Yeah, I have to say I I do like I I

00:33:14

think he's messaging well, but he never

00:33:16

comes up with solutions. Like he just

00:33:18

tells us it's all falling apart. So, you

00:33:20

know, David Saxs went after him this

00:33:21

week for being too negative. And I don't

00:33:23

think he is. I just think he while he's

00:33:26

offering these scary scenarios, he needs

00:33:28

to say, "Okay, here's what we can do."

00:33:30

Like, he doesn't do that enough. That's

00:33:32

my that's my that's what I would say

00:33:34

about him.

00:33:34

>> But why wouldn't they why would they

00:33:36

coordin I mean, they have a lot of

00:33:37

money. Why wouldn't they take, I don't

00:33:39

know, a billion dollars and start a

00:33:40

center of Berkeley and say this center

00:33:43

is going to be focused on

00:33:45

>> on um incurable diseases and we're going

00:33:49

to we're going to give them all the

00:33:50

models for free. We're going to get

00:33:52

we're going to give them compute

00:33:53

inference. And a lot of people would say

00:33:54

no, it's the profit motive, but just

00:33:57

from a I don't want to sound a

00:33:58

perception standpoint, but why wouldn't

00:34:00

you say we're we're we're starting a

00:34:03

center for diplomatic prevention of

00:34:05

conflict using AI?

00:34:07

>> They could just do so many interesting

00:34:09

things concerned about the

00:34:11

>> but yeah, their their brand is really

00:34:13

bad. And listen, Dario is going to be

00:34:15

dragged down with the rest of them if

00:34:16

they don't do something about it.

00:34:17

>> Every journey is the same from Anakin

00:34:19

Skywalker to Darth Vader. We think

00:34:21

they're the ones that are going to save

00:34:22

us, that they should be president. And

00:34:24

then we find out like the rest of them,

00:34:26

their job is to do do and say whatever

00:34:28

will get their share price

00:34:29

>> of clay, feet of clay.

00:34:33

>> There you go. It's a it's the villain's

00:34:34

journey. They always end up a Bond

00:34:36

villain. And I like Dario. I don't know

00:34:38

him personally, but I think he's made a

00:34:39

series of really good moves. He's

00:34:41

clearly an outstanding CEO. But here's

00:34:43

an easy prediction. in 24 months we'll

00:34:45

hate him too

00:34:47

>> because we we will fall into the trap of

00:34:49

believing that these people are

00:34:51

responsible for our well-being.

00:34:53

>> They're not. They're responsible for

00:34:54

shareholder value and that comes at a

00:34:56

cost and when no one's home see above

00:34:58

that void.

00:34:59

>> Yeah, but brand declines.

00:35:00

>> Who is proposing anything resembling AI

00:35:02

regulation right now?

00:35:03

>> Well, they say it and then they it's a

00:35:04

one-off kind of thing. Anyway, they do

00:35:07

say it. They do say it.

00:35:08

>> What would you do? What would you want

00:35:09

to see? I would I would put I think

00:35:12

that's I actually hadn't thought about

00:35:13

it, but I would not not ads saying how

00:35:16

good we are. I would have an well I you

00:35:19

know I had a back and forth with Dario's

00:35:21

people. I'm going to see him this week.

00:35:22

Um but one of the one of the things I

00:35:25

said is you're doing all these soft

00:35:26

interviews. Do some [ __ ] hard ones.

00:35:28

Like and I was of course pitching for me

00:35:30

but you know like get out there and do

00:35:33

some like do a lot. And it doesn't have

00:35:35

to just be him. It has to be a lot of

00:35:37

people. like instead we're doing you

00:35:40

know Sam Alman's sort of had a series of

00:35:42

bad interviews but it's got to be a

00:35:44

broader discussion among a lot more

00:35:46

people right and demand that your

00:35:47

critics are right in front of you and

00:35:49

don't wilt when a critic says something

00:35:52

um instead of like they just they just

00:35:55

they just don't want bad news and it

00:35:57

doesn't matter people hate them they

00:35:58

really hate them and so look at the

00:36:00

polls look at young people I mean it's

00:36:02

just the brand destruction is going to

00:36:05

take them all down and and there's so

00:36:07

any promising things with AI? I mean,

00:36:08

look what happened to Reese Witherspoon

00:36:10

this week. I got slammed cuz I said,

00:36:12

"What was she saying?" That was cuz they

00:36:14

thought she was being paid by Chad GPT

00:36:16

or Charles Porch or whatever it happened

00:36:17

to be. But did you see all that like cuz

00:36:20

she was saying women need to

00:36:21

>> I didn't understand why she got so much

00:36:23

hate for that

00:36:24

>> cuz they thought it was an ad. I think

00:36:25

that they and maybe it was. I don't

00:36:27

really care. What she was saying was

00:36:28

accurate. It doesn't I mean they said

00:36:30

she's bought and paid for and she must

00:36:32

be getting money cuz she has Blackstone

00:36:34

money through the whatever. Honestly, it

00:36:37

was so innocuous and people cuz she does

00:36:40

books and so all the people it just was

00:36:43

it was innocuous what she said.

00:36:44

Seriously innocuous and I got slammed

00:36:46

for I wasn't really even defending her.

00:36:48

I'm like, what is she saying that's so

00:36:50

weird? Even again, even if she was paid,

00:36:53

I don't think it was the message was the

00:36:56

a bad one. But I guess and then

00:36:58

everybody's like, well, I'm not going to

00:36:59

use AI. So there. And I'm like, well,

00:37:02

don't then. What do you want? But if you

00:37:03

if you care about where it's going, you

00:37:05

need it's like in the early internet,

00:37:07

there were all these people who said,

00:37:08

I'm not using the web. I'm like, knock

00:37:11

yourself out. But it's it's happening,

00:37:13

my friends. Don't turn on that flash

00:37:15

that electric light. I I don't care.

00:37:18

It's just Anyway, it's a bad there's a

00:37:20

lot of rage. There's the rage at her was

00:37:23

in insane I thought. Anyway, um let's go

00:37:26

on a quick break. When we come back, uh

00:37:28

why Netflix stock plummeted after its

00:37:30

latest earnings. I'm eager to hear what

00:37:32

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00:39:58

Scott, we're back with more news.

00:40:00

Netflix is out with its first earnings

00:40:01

report since walking away from the

00:40:03

Warner Brothers deal back in February.

00:40:04

The company beat expectations on revenue

00:40:06

and earnings driven by membership

00:40:08

growth, ad sales, and higher

00:40:10

subscription prices, plus that $2.8

00:40:12

billion breakup fee. Thanks, uh,

00:40:14

Ellison's. Thanks Paramount. But the Q2

00:40:16

forecast was below analyst expectations.

00:40:19

It sent shares down 10%. The earnings

00:40:22

also came with a few announcements. A

00:40:24

deeper push into AI and the launch of a

00:40:27

Tik Tok-like vertical video feed within

00:40:29

the app. They're trying to do a lot

00:40:30

more. AI makes total sense in that

00:40:32

regard. And notably Netflix co-founder

00:40:34

and chairman of the board Reed Hastings

00:40:36

is leaving the company when his term

00:40:37

expires in June. He wants to do a lot of

00:40:39

other things. Um talk first about the

00:40:42

earnings. We're going to get into the

00:40:43

Netflix's podcast plans in a in just a

00:40:46

second. Um, I can go over what they're

00:40:49

doing, but why don't you talk about the

00:40:50

earnings himself? And by the way, can I

00:40:51

just take a moment? I met Reed Hastings

00:40:53

right at the beginning of this company

00:40:55

and I have known him for a long time. I

00:40:57

got to say an amazing entrepreneur. What

00:41:00

he did and shifted deserves enormous

00:41:03

credit and he was the real engine. And

00:41:05

Ted is doing a great job. So is Bella

00:41:07

Bajaria. So are the new people there.

00:41:09

But Reed Hastings is a one is a

00:41:12

generational uh entrepreneur and

00:41:14

congratulations on your tenure.

00:41:16

>> Yeah, agreed. Uh look, the earnings were

00:41:19

uh fantastic. Their revenue was up 16%

00:41:23

year-over-year, beating expectations.

00:41:26

Their earnings uh was nearly double what

00:41:28

analysts expected. There was a bit of a

00:41:31

sugar high though because of the $3

00:41:33

billion termination fee from the

00:41:34

collapse Warner Brothers deal. What

00:41:37

shocked me was the ad tier now drives

00:41:39

over 60% of new signups in ad supported

00:41:41

markets. And

00:41:44

>> uh they're they're on track to hit $3

00:41:46

billion in ad revenue this year. So now

00:41:48

they're becoming a big media player, ad

00:41:50

supported media player with a business

00:41:51

that barely even existed two years ago.

00:41:54

And the fullear guidance held at about

00:41:56

51 to 52 billion, but uh Q2 guidance of

00:42:00

13% growth came in below what the bulls

00:42:02

wanted to see. So I think that I guess I

00:42:06

I looked at these earnings. I mean this

00:42:07

is the weird and the beautiful thing

00:42:09

about the market. If I'd seen these

00:42:10

earnings before the market's reaction, I

00:42:12

would have guessed the market would be

00:42:13

flat to up. So I don't know if they're

00:42:16

taking Reed's departure as a signal this

00:42:17

is no longer a growth company or that

00:42:19

that just some air was coming out of the

00:42:21

stock. Um I don't get it. I don't you

00:42:25

know I there was some speculation that

00:42:27

Reed was leaving because of the botched

00:42:28

Warner Brothers deal. I think that's

00:42:29

[ __ ] But I think like you said, he

00:42:31

just wants to do different things.

00:42:33

>> He has a lot of

00:42:34

>> the stock was up 18% year to date

00:42:36

heading into the print. Now it's just up

00:42:38

7% but that's not bad. The I did meet

00:42:42

with Ted Sarandos two years ago and I

00:42:44

told him I thought they should launch a

00:42:45

Tik Tok competitor because the long tale

00:42:49

of Netflix content doesn't get viewed

00:42:51

very much.

00:42:52

>> Yeah. And I thought have an open-source

00:42:54

opportunity for artists and creators to

00:42:56

slice it up and it would be incredible

00:42:58

marketing and I think they could have a

00:42:59

viable competitor to Tik Tok

00:43:01

>> and at that point

00:43:04

by the way

00:43:05

>> it looks like they're getting into the

00:43:06

business. um they're launching a Tik Tok

00:43:09

style vertical video feed this month and

00:43:12

YouTube has 13% of all US TV viewing

00:43:15

versus Netflix at 9% but YouTube shorts

00:43:18

has grown 186% in 15 months with shorts

00:43:22

on connected TV accounting for part of

00:43:24

their growth and then Meta recently

00:43:26

announced that Reals for TV

00:43:29

uh

00:43:31

they're doing Reels for TV where users

00:43:33

can watch short form content on

00:43:34

television and Reels already has a 50

00:43:37

billion ion dollar annual run rate in ad

00:43:38

revenue. That's more revenue than WBD

00:43:40

and NBC Universal combined. And

00:43:43

basically everyone now, 95% of consumers

00:43:45

now watch some some form of short form

00:43:47

video.

00:43:47

>> Cara Swisser, don't you?

00:43:49

>> Oh, I I I hate to admit it, most of

00:43:52

people ask me what my media sources

00:43:53

were, and I used to say the FT and the

00:43:54

Economist to sound smart. The bottom

00:43:56

line is I'm getting most of my content

00:43:58

from short form video right now.

00:43:59

>> Me, too. Me too.

00:44:00

>> And time spent watching video content on

00:44:02

social media has more than doubled since

00:44:04

the pandemic. and Meta's revenues have

00:44:07

nearly tripled and Tik Toks have grown

00:44:08

10fold. So I think that what what

00:44:12

Netflix has is they have proprietary

00:44:14

content. So proprietary content that's

00:44:17

not user generated but useredited.

00:44:20

What could you do? There's some been

00:44:22

some amazing Netflix content that never

00:44:24

bubbles up and never gets seen. Put it

00:44:26

out and say, "Guys, have at it. Slice it

00:44:30

into twominute things. Create new

00:44:31

stories. Add in different effects. add

00:44:34

in different humor, different subtitles,

00:44:36

have added I my what I pitched what I

00:44:40

pitched um uh uh Ted, I'm like, start

00:44:43

something called Net Vibes and basically

00:44:45

say it's a Tik Tok competitor with all

00:44:46

the proprietary content of the longtail

00:44:48

stuff

00:44:49

>> and 90% that gets 2% of your viewership

00:44:52

time.

00:44:53

>> Why did you just give away that great

00:44:54

name? That was really good. You're

00:44:56

talented.

00:44:57

>> That was good. You said two very smart

00:44:59

things today. It's

00:45:00

>> I have to tell you,

00:45:01

>> it's because I was under I was under the

00:45:02

influence. Anyways, but Ted just sort of

00:45:05

rolled his eyes and said, "Why would we

00:45:06

do that when Tik Tok is such a great

00:45:08

marketing engine for us right now?" But

00:45:10

it looks like they're saying, "Okay, we

00:45:12

no longer we need we need a growth

00:45:14

story." I think this is a great idea. I

00:45:17

think they're doing it. And with the

00:45:19

case of Netflix, the second mouse may

00:45:20

get the cheese here. I think it's a

00:45:22

great idea for

00:45:22

>> Oh, interesting. All right. So, I'm

00:45:23

going to let me just tell you the second

00:45:25

thing is they're going all in on

00:45:27

podcast, which is interesting. Um, and I

00:45:30

have a lot of information about this

00:45:31

because I immediately started looking

00:45:32

into it. Netflix has announced five more

00:45:35

shows coming to its platforms. These are

00:45:36

exclusive shows, including a new weekly

00:45:38

interview show with Brian Williams. Hulu

00:45:40

has also announced four more podcasts,

00:45:42

including Handsome and three others

00:45:43

based on TV shows. Hulu's um is not as

00:45:47

strict um as Netflix. Netflix requires

00:45:50

the shows to forego YouTube entirely and

00:45:53

Hulu does not, it looks like. Um, so

00:45:56

this is really interesting. So I asked

00:45:57

what the deals were and someone said

00:45:58

deal structure looks like this. Episodic

00:46:01

fee lowend of 25k an episode averaging

00:46:04

average range 50 to 75k an episodes

00:46:07

higher celeb for celeb talent. Uh

00:46:10

production budget on top 6 to 12 month

00:46:14

initial terms with 206 to 52 episodes

00:46:17

depending on term length ownership

00:46:19

Netflix but sometimes they are given um

00:46:23

uh revision rights reversion rights

00:46:26

excuse me. So, IP maybe if they're

00:46:28

making them. Um, I wasn't tremendously

00:46:32

impressed with the choices they made. I

00:46:34

like Brian Williams, but it seems like

00:46:36

they should really go for a much more um

00:46:39

younger demo, I guess, or more online

00:46:42

demo, influencer demo, but that was just

00:46:44

me. Um, what are your thoughts here?

00:46:46

What do you think? That's a lot of

00:46:48

money. 50, you know, if you got $50,000

00:46:50

an episode, that's that's a buttload of

00:46:52

money. 2.5 million. Well, we've been

00:46:55

talking in our own book, but it doesn't

00:46:56

mean I don't believe it. Every political

00:46:59

cycle, there's a technology uh Obama

00:47:03

weaponized search, um Trump, Facebook, I

00:47:07

would say the second one was about

00:47:08

social. A lot of people would say this

00:47:10

is now these midterms are going to be

00:47:11

the AI midterms with a ton of

00:47:12

misinformation. But I think in general,

00:47:15

this election or the last election was

00:47:17

really the podcast election. And do you

00:47:20

remember that graph that showed that

00:47:21

newspapers were getting 30% of all ad

00:47:24

revenue but they only had 8% readership

00:47:26

and the internet was getting 10% of

00:47:27

revenue but had 50% of all time. Those

00:47:29

two tend to calibrate and the fastest

00:47:34

growing ads supported medium in the

00:47:35

nation is not meta or alphabet. It's

00:47:37

podcasting

00:47:39

>> u

00:47:39

>> which is video casting really but go

00:47:41

ahead

00:47:42

>> it's it's television with a lower cost

00:47:44

of means of production. It's 80% of

00:47:47

>> a closer relationship with fans that you

00:47:49

have you can't leave that out. It's not

00:47:51

just because it's cheap

00:47:52

>> and it's not starched. It's it's not

00:47:54

it's not a handsome guy saying save

00:47:56

content for 22 minutes and then showing

00:47:58

a video about a butterfly garden. It's

00:48:00

just it's people who are willing and

00:48:02

some people like the conspiracy [ __ ] and

00:48:05

some people want people calling heth a

00:48:09

drunk. it. And sometimes people are just

00:48:11

so [ __ ] talented that they bubble up

00:48:14

past the means of production that have

00:48:15

sequestered some of this talent.

00:48:17

Anyways, podcasting, you know, the

00:48:20

Golden Globes now has it as as a

00:48:22

category. Um, we're up Pivot is up 25 or

00:48:27

30% this year. Propy Media is up 46%

00:48:31

this year. Podcasts are growing like

00:48:34

crazy. And what's what's even more

00:48:36

interesting is the the chaser effects

00:48:39

are the following. The average age of a

00:48:42

Fox viewer is 69, CNN 67, CNBC 64. The

00:48:46

average podcast listener is 34.

00:48:49

And when you're 34, it means you're

00:48:51

you're buying houses, cars, getting

00:48:54

kids, which are very expensive, and

00:48:55

dogs. So this is this is quote unquote

00:48:58

the core demographic. So in and in

00:49:01

addition as evidenced by the fact that

00:49:04

the easiest guest for Cara Swisser and

00:49:06

Scott Galloway to get on their show is

00:49:08

someone running for president.

00:49:10

>> Yeah.

00:49:12

>> Anyone who's thinking quote unquote not

00:49:14

going to make the decision in a year or

00:49:16

two year with their family. Yeah.

00:49:18

>> They're calling us and they want to come

00:49:20

on because they're running for president

00:49:21

because

00:49:23

>> because the what's interesting is that

00:49:25

you know I don't know if you found this

00:49:26

but on property they don't perform that

00:49:28

well. I find that really interesting.

00:49:31

>> Buddha judge did great. I'll tell you

00:49:32

that Nome did well.

00:49:34

>> He's exceptional.

00:49:35

>> Newsome did well. That's not true. It's

00:49:37

not true. Some of them do well. It dep

00:49:39

I'm going to I'm going to pay attention

00:49:40

to what does well, which is

00:49:42

>> I find on average politicians don't

00:49:44

score nearly as well as some of the

00:49:45

other guests we have. But anyways,

00:49:47

audience

00:49:48

>> the in terms of downloads or viewership.

00:49:50

But my point is the new people actually

00:49:53

listen to the ads. The other innovation

00:49:56

that no traditional media company wanted

00:49:58

to do because they decided their talent

00:49:59

was too precious is host readovers. That

00:50:02

gets if you do a if you just do an

00:50:04

insert ad on YouTube or just an insert

00:50:06

ad, you get between three and 10 bucks

00:50:07

CPMs. You reading over an ad, you

00:50:10

talking about your Chevy Bolt and how

00:50:12

much you like it, which you really do.

00:50:13

That gets a CPM of 45 or 50 bucks.

00:50:16

Chevy,

00:50:17

>> the media company at General Motors is

00:50:19

like they're they're allocating more and

00:50:22

more money. And now these things finally

00:50:23

have the scale. So Netflix is could be

00:50:27

the new Netflix is late on short form

00:50:30

video. They're late on podcast, but when

00:50:32

you have direct relationship with 80% of

00:50:35

households, you can play catchup pretty

00:50:38

fast. One of the things that drives me

00:50:39

crazy with the media reporters when they

00:50:41

were talking about the Vox thing, I was

00:50:43

like, "You all don't get where the money

00:50:46

is now, where the voices are, where the

00:50:49

like it just drives me crazy cuz they're

00:50:51

living in a different world." Like when

00:50:53

I not all of them, by the way, but but

00:50:56

when I I've been doing a lot of press

00:50:57

for this scene, I'm think and I'm like

00:50:59

they're like, "Oh, is Vox trying to, you

00:51:01

know, just save itself?" I'm like, "No,

00:51:03

it has valuable a thing that's valuable,

00:51:06

you idiots." And so, you know, and and

00:51:09

the same thing with these deals. They

00:51:10

were sort of pooing. I'm like, you don't

00:51:12

understand what's happening here. And I

00:51:14

can't say it enough. Just sitting at a

00:51:17

table in on a street in San Francisco

00:51:19

with my son, the kind of pe the people

00:51:22

that stopped people that stop me on the

00:51:24

street now, it's really astonishing like

00:51:27

nothing I've ever done. And it's it's

00:51:30

and most of people Scott tell me thank

00:51:32

you for doing what you and Scott are

00:51:34

doing or thank you for doing that

00:51:35

interview. They thank you for your

00:51:38

content. That never happened to me

00:51:39

before in my life. So I don't know how

00:51:41

you feel about that. But you got to

00:51:43

figure out

00:51:44

>> the most rewarding thing about it. I

00:51:46

mean look the the money's great but the

00:51:49

most rewarding thing about it is that

00:51:53

when people come up to you they start

00:51:54

speaking to you as if they're they're

00:51:56

your friend. And it's really nice.

00:51:58

People feel a parasocial they have a

00:52:00

parasocial relationship with you and

00:52:02

they're they feel good about you. I

00:52:04

think it's because you're physically in

00:52:06

their ears often times so it creates

00:52:08

intimacy and also you're talking to them

00:52:11

as they're doing something quite

00:52:12

personal. They're walking the dog,

00:52:14

they're doing the dishes, it's their

00:52:15

morning routine. But I think the most

00:52:18

rewarding thing about being a podcaster

00:52:20

like if you get to a certain point, it's

00:52:21

a little bit like the NBA.

00:52:24

The analogy I use is that when I rode

00:52:25

crew at UCLA, there's been 2,000 people

00:52:28

who have rode crew. 10 10 went to the

00:52:32

Olympics. So what is that like a.5%

00:52:36

not even.5% went to the Olympics? It's

00:52:39

it's.1%

00:52:41

of podcasters are self-sustaining

00:52:43

economically. So you are five times more

00:52:46

likely to go to the Olympics if you

00:52:47

wrote at UCLA than have a successful

00:52:49

podcast. This is a difficult business,

00:52:52

but once you get once you get to break

00:52:54

even, the economics here are incredible

00:52:56

because there's what do we have? We have

00:52:59

we have three producers. We have we

00:53:01

outsource our ad sales to to um to Vox

00:53:06

and this is a $15 million business

00:53:09

growing to 25 probably in the next 24

00:53:11

months. Like just do the math. This is

00:53:13

an incredibly this is creates as much

00:53:16

IBIDA. Pivot will probably create as

00:53:17

much IBIDA as one of the most successful

00:53:21

shows on MS now or Fox or anywhere else.

00:53:24

It won't be as big topline, but the

00:53:26

IBITA margins are just incredibly

00:53:28

dramatic, but hands down the most

00:53:30

rewarding thing from a host standpoint.

00:53:33

>> It's the relationship with fans.

00:53:34

>> These really lovely people come up to

00:53:36

you and they start talking to you about

00:53:37

their kids.

00:53:38

>> Yeah. And it's all

00:53:39

>> I mean, maybe they do that.

00:53:41

>> Maybe they do that.

00:53:42

>> I've never had it happen my whole

00:53:43

career. I have had a long and pretty

00:53:45

like well-known prayer. But I'll tell

00:53:47

you, a very famous author was on my

00:53:49

plane today and he texted he had my

00:53:52

number. He texted me just thank you for

00:53:54

what you're doing. And I he he didn't

00:53:56

want to say hi because he felt like he

00:53:58

was bothering me, which he wasn't.

00:53:59

>> But but what I'll say is we have we have

00:54:01

a responsibility and I think our

00:54:03

responsibility I'm trying to live up to

00:54:05

this is the medium is creating good

00:54:07

vibes. I think mostly because, and I do

00:54:10

think this is true of most podcasts,

00:54:12

when you go on cable TV, and this

00:54:14

happened to me when I went on Pierce

00:54:16

Morgan or a couple times when I've gone

00:54:17

on Fox, they're trying to engage a

00:54:19

little bit and call out culture and

00:54:20

create antagonism. I have found the vast

00:54:23

majority of podcasters when I go on

00:54:25

their podcast, even if they disagree

00:54:27

with me, even if they're conservative,

00:54:29

they're trying to present you in a fair

00:54:31

and positive light. And I think as

00:54:33

podcasters we have an obligation to

00:54:35

maintain that cultural zeitgeist

00:54:38

to be to show some grace to even if you

00:54:40

disagree with people. We're not in the

00:54:42

business of calling them out. You want a

00:54:43

thoughtful nuance conversation. Let them

00:54:45

run with their

00:54:46

>> views. It's okay to disagree and it's

00:54:48

okay to push back. I do think you have

00:54:50

to informational and like let's hear

00:54:52

this person is what I'm trying to do and

00:54:54

like what your goal isn't to make them

00:54:56

look stupid,

00:54:57

>> right? Your your goal is to have a

00:55:00

thoughtful discourse such that your

00:55:01

listeners your listeners learn, but also

00:55:04

to demonstrate the people from different

00:55:06

sides of the political spectrum,

00:55:08

>> but you don't

00:55:08

>> can demonstrate some grace towards each

00:55:10

other.

00:55:10

>> I agree. I agree with you. All right,

00:55:12

Scott. One more quick break. We'll be

00:55:14

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00:56:22

Okay, Scott, we're going to do some wins

00:56:24

and fails. I'm gonna I'm gonna go first

00:56:25

if you don't mind. I already talked

00:56:26

about Palunteer's stupid manifesto. But

00:56:29

two people um Ron Conway, a really

00:56:31

well-known figure in Silicon Valley who

00:56:33

I like very much. He was the one that

00:56:35

was pushing back on he's been I just

00:56:38

really like him. He and I have had lots

00:56:40

of beefs over the years, but he's a

00:56:41

really legendary venture capitalist. He

00:56:43

announced he had a cancer. He's not

00:56:44

giving specifics about it. Um and he's

00:56:47

fighting it. He's given so much money to

00:56:49

medical stuff in San Francisco.

00:56:51

incredibly generous and unusual for a

00:56:53

lot of these VCs who just only think

00:56:55

about themselves, but Ron's a very

00:56:57

civic-minded person in San Francisco.

00:56:59

Um, and people have different views with

00:57:01

him, but I I really adore him and uh

00:57:04

he's he's struggling with some cancer

00:57:06

and he wrote me a series of very joyful

00:57:09

texts over the weekend. I love you.

00:57:11

Thank you so much. cuz I wrote him a

00:57:13

note and I just hope he he has all the

00:57:16

he has all the money and to to do and

00:57:18

all the connections and science because

00:57:19

he's done so much fundraising. Um I hope

00:57:23

for the best for him. And then second

00:57:25

one is um so that's a fail for mine and

00:57:28

same thing is uh Senator Warner's

00:57:29

daughter died. Uh she had juvenile

00:57:32

diabetes and a series of health issues.

00:57:34

And I both Scott and I love talking to

00:57:37

him. We find him very thoughtful. Um and

00:57:40

so I just we are my condolences go to

00:57:43

him. Um she's 36 years old and again

00:57:45

struggled with um struggled with

00:57:48

juvenile diabetes and ensuing bunches of

00:57:50

issues. Um and my win um is this

00:57:54

Atlantic piece. It's a little bit of a

00:57:56

dunker, but everyone is getting on board

00:57:59

with this idea that maybe the tech

00:58:00

billionaires aren't here to help us,

00:58:02

which I think um is is a is a narrative

00:58:05

I've tried to get through a little bit.

00:58:08

Um, but I thought that this guy Noah

00:58:10

Holly, who was responsible for Fargo and

00:58:11

a bunch of other things I love online,

00:58:14

he's been writing for The Atlantic, and

00:58:16

I just really, really enjoy his work.

00:58:19

Um, but I really, uh, let me just read

00:58:23

two quotes from this piece in the

00:58:25

Atlantic. Uh, it's called What I Learned

00:58:27

about Billionaires at Jeff Bezos's

00:58:28

private retreat. These guys are having

00:58:30

their own retreats. That Bezos's is

00:58:32

called Campfire. And it's it's a

00:58:35

devastating piece actually, and I think

00:58:36

very true. unfair. Um, this is the

00:58:39

hubris of accomplishment. To be declared

00:58:41

a genius at one thing is to begin to

00:58:43

believe you are a genius at everything.

00:58:46

It's not that the wealthy become evil.

00:58:48

It's that their environment stops

00:58:49

teaching them the things that

00:58:50

non-wealthy people are forced to learn

00:58:53

simply by living in a world that pushes

00:58:55

back. When when you can buy your way out

00:58:58

of any mistake, when you can fire anyone

00:59:00

who disagrees with you. When your social

00:59:01

circle consists entirely of people who

00:59:04

need something from you. The basic

00:59:06

mechanism by which humans learn that

00:59:08

other people are real goes dark.

00:59:11

Fantastic piece, Noah Holly. I recommend

00:59:14

it. It's beautifully written and

00:59:16

incredibly fair. And um so anyway, yours

00:59:21

>> I'm just gonna I'm just paring your

00:59:23

comments. I did not know that about Ron

00:59:25

Conway and I'm sorry to hear that. Ron

00:59:28

invested uh in two of my companies back

00:59:30

in the 90s when I was playing in traffic

00:59:32

and starting e-commerce companies. He

00:59:34

invested he was one of my first

00:59:35

investors in Red Envelope and one of my

00:59:38

first investors in my e-commerce

00:59:40

incubator, Brand Farm.

00:59:41

>> I didn't know that. Wow.

00:59:42

>> Yeah. And I'll say this about Ron. You

00:59:45

know, you have good investors and you

00:59:47

have bad investors. And Ron uh I would

00:59:51

just describe as incredibly supportive

00:59:53

no matter what was going on was

00:59:56

emotionally and financially just like

00:59:58

really on the side of entrepreneurs and

01:00:01

uh

01:00:01

>> I'm sorry to hear that and I share I

01:00:03

share your warm wishes. Also share

01:00:06

>> your condolences and sympathies with

01:00:07

Senator Warner. Obviously every parent's

01:00:10

>> worst nightmare. I'm not I I know

01:00:13

Senator Warner. I would consider myself

01:00:15

friendly but I'm not close friends with

01:00:16

him. But I have a close friend who's

01:00:18

very close with Senator Warner and the

01:00:20

senator has been approached by any

01:00:22

number of people on a regular basis uh

01:00:24

about running for president and a lot of

01:00:26

people felt that he brought the

01:00:27

gravitas, the credentials and quite

01:00:30

frankly the kind of mo the moderate

01:00:32

positioning that they thought would be

01:00:34

uh a great candidate for president and

01:00:37

uh what I have heard is that he he never

01:00:39

ever ever seriously concern considered

01:00:42

it because he was always very focused on

01:00:43

his family. Uh, so he is that guy, not

01:00:46

the one who was performative. Oh, I'm

01:00:48

going to check with my family. He was

01:00:50

oftentimes people wanted to draft him,

01:00:52

but he was always kind of uh family

01:00:54

first. Anyways, share your share your uh

01:00:57

condolences. My my win is much more

01:01:00

boring. I just wanted to talk a little

01:01:01

bit about Reed Hastings and just the

01:01:04

incredible tenure uh 99 to 2023,

01:01:09

founded in 1997. So, he's there 30

01:01:12

years. So you want to talk about uh from

01:01:15

a startup to global giant.

01:01:17

>> In 2000 they had 300,000 subscribers.

01:01:20

>> This year they'll have 300 million.

01:01:23

>> The revenue went from the revenue went

01:01:25

from three billion in 2011. This year it

01:01:27

will do 45 billion.

01:01:29

>> Terms of market value. They rejected a

01:01:32

$50 million acquisition offer in 2000.

01:01:34

This year they'll they're now worth

01:01:36

about 400 billion. um one of the largest

01:01:40

value creations in tech history in terms

01:01:42

of business transformation.

01:01:44

Talk about the mother of all, you know,

01:01:47

big ball pivots from DVD rentals to

01:01:49

streaming in 2007, from streaming to

01:01:51

original content, House of Cards, and

01:01:54

then he's gone from the US to 190 plus

01:01:57

countries globally. Their profitability,

01:02:00

tons of losses in the 2000s,

01:02:02

multi-billions in annual profits. And

01:02:04

then the cultural impact uh that people

01:02:07

don't talk enough about was that Netflix

01:02:09

deck they put out on their culture. They

01:02:12

talk about freedom and responsibility,

01:02:14

no vacation limits, high performance

01:02:16

culture. And the thing I did actually

01:02:18

take something from them. They stated

01:02:19

out loud that they wanted to be a

01:02:21

company known for exceptional

01:02:23

compensation. And I' I've tried to adopt

01:02:25

the same thing. I've always tried to pay

01:02:27

my people more than market or I

01:02:29

shouldn't say it's the last 10 years. Uh

01:02:31

but this company

01:02:33

um they took a DVD by mail startup. They

01:02:36

pivoted into streaming. They scaled it

01:02:37

globally and they turned it into a half

01:02:39

a trillion dollar media platform.

01:02:42

30 years, 1,000x

01:02:44

user growth, 15x revenue growth, and you

01:02:48

know, redefined or defined the category.

01:02:53

I I would argue one of the top five to

01:02:54

10 tech CEO careers of the last 30

01:02:56

years. And you know what? He did it with

01:02:58

a lot of grace. He was never in

01:03:00

>> absolutely

01:03:01

>> he was never scandal. Never [ __ ] posting

01:03:03

other people. Never

01:03:06

>> found drunk driving. Never

01:03:09

>> shitty tweets he had to erase or delete

01:03:12

>> attention on himself. I have I can I

01:03:15

just add that I've had him on stage many

01:03:17

times but I have to say of all the

01:03:19

people I would rather spend time with

01:03:21

Reed Hastings and I know Hollywood all

01:03:23

hates their miss system but it's not

01:03:25

their fault that they found a way to do

01:03:27

a different system. It's Hollywood's

01:03:29

fault for having a bad economic system

01:03:31

that was no longer sustainable. They

01:03:33

like to sort of blame Netflix. I think

01:03:34

that's unfair. Um they they do what they

01:03:37

do. That's what they make. And I don't

01:03:39

think they're diminishing it. You just

01:03:40

you don't have to watch it if you don't

01:03:42

like it in that regard. And I think they

01:03:43

put out a lot of great content.

01:03:45

Actually, they put a lot of silly

01:03:46

content, too. But I got to tell you,

01:03:48

what a he's a [ __ ] class act. He's So

01:03:51

is Ron. They're class acts. All these

01:03:54

guys you're talking about. and he

01:03:56

clearly imprinted really solid DNA. The

01:03:58

co-c now, Greg Peters and Ted Sandos. I

01:04:01

don't know Greg, but I know Ted, but

01:04:03

they're both have a reputation for being

01:04:05

not only very intelligent, but very

01:04:07

decent men.

01:04:08

>> So Netflix, a great company, great

01:04:10

leadership, and this guy historic run is

01:04:12

is historic. So my win is the tenure of

01:04:16

>> of Reed Hastings. By the way, one of the

01:04:18

things I was thinking about, Scott, was

01:04:20

you talked about that is the decency and

01:04:22

we started with the incompetence like a

01:04:23

cash patelling

01:04:26

sick of these incompetents and these

01:04:27

like look at me performative [ __ ]

01:04:31

liars. Like I don't know what else to

01:04:33

say, but I was watching Obama and

01:04:35

Mandami thing. Uh they were promoting

01:04:38

universal free child care and singing

01:04:40

wheels on the bus. Did you see that

01:04:42

video?

01:04:43

>> It was it was it was very it was very

01:04:45

likable, human humane. It was really

01:04:48

nice.

01:04:48

>> Yes, it was so nice. I was like enough

01:04:50

of that the other [ __ ] the cash patells

01:04:53

and more of that. More wheels on the

01:04:55

bus. That's all I have to say. Anyway,

01:04:57

we want to hear from you. Send us your

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questions about business tech or

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whatever's on your mind. Go to

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call 85551 pivot. Elsewhere in the Karen

01:05:08

Scott universe, this week on On with

01:05:09

Caris Wisher, I spoke with comedian

01:05:11

Nikki Glazer uh who is a new stand-up

01:05:14

special called Good Girl coming out

01:05:15

Friday on Hulu. She talked about uh how

01:05:18

overcoming fear pushes her to be the

01:05:20

best. Let's listen to a clip.

01:05:22

>> I love fear. I run into fear. Picture

01:05:24

fear as like a wall that you have to run

01:05:25

into. And so I was I kind of go into

01:05:28

that of like I know that my self-esteem

01:05:30

is built upon doing things that are hard

01:05:33

and conquering them. So I know that on

01:05:35

the other side of doing this horribly

01:05:36

uncomfortable thing is uh is me feeling

01:05:40

better about myself.

01:05:41

>> It's a great interview. Scott, you

01:05:42

reminded me of you a little bit. It was

01:05:43

interesting. I was I was talking to her.

01:05:45

It was interesting. I think

01:05:46

>> I like her because it's dirty.

01:05:47

>> She's also dirty. She talked about that.

01:05:50

Anyway, uh the the show is called Good

01:05:52

Girl and uh she's not always good in the

01:05:54

show, but actually she is. It's a she's

01:05:56

a really talented comic. I like her a

01:05:58

lot and very thoughtful and very funny.

01:06:00

That's the most important part. Uh okay,

01:06:02

that's the show. Let's thanks for

01:06:03

listening to Pivot and be sure to like

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and subscribe to our YouTube channel.

01:06:06

We'll be back on Friday.

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