26 - Twenty Six Six Six | My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark

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Let's start. Now? Let's start right now. Let's start right now. fireworks. Baby, you're a firework.

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Whole building collapses. Someone's on some social media site said that they almost

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got in a car accident when they heard the firework because they thought it was a gunshot.

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Oh, no. I know. Sorry, we were just as scared as you were. We were more scared because as loud

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as it was on the podcast, it was fucking 15 times louder in real life. Yeah. You're fine.

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um sorry it was very very scary surprising and to me funny it's hilarious it keeps happening

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though so it might happen again tonight and what is it September I mean how much longer I don't know

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so prepare yourself and your dogs because I'm sure people some people has they're like thunder jackets off but I tried to put a thunder shirt on George one time

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yeah and when i came home it was eaten yes it was like ripped to shreds and parts were gone i know

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i know that well she's like no i put a cat a collar on my cat once and came back and it was

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like here's what i think of it yeah get fuck yourself get fuck i mean i wouldn't want a

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fucking collar i mean i guess i did when i was 14 and thought i was punk i work i mean that was

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the 90s right it was wasn't it it was all about cat collars and shit back then yeah punk fake

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punk rock. Totally. I still have mine. It still smells like Victoria's Secret apple spray,

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apple body spray. Oh, no. Oh, no. You mean sorrow? Yeah. It still smells like ecstasy. Yeah.

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Hey, how are you? How was your week? What's going on? Hi. I've just been working. Oh,

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this is my favorite murder. Oh, guys, listen. I mean, I figure if you press play on this,

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You probably know that. If you're one of those rando people that just goes through iTunes and picks different podcasts and hits play.

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No one's ever done that, right? No, I seriously doubt it. But welcome if you're that one person.

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And if you're the lone wolf. Hi. Hi. And if you're new to this, I'm Georgia. That's Karen.

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I'm Karen. This is my voice. Karen was the one singing. I do that because it's my passion.

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It's her passion and she's good at it. And I'm not. I disagree. That I'm bad at that.

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I'm bad. You disagree that you're good at it. I disagree that you're bad at it. Thank you.

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Because I've heard you do it jokingly and it's not bad. Yeah, it's not. I guess the secret is not to try or care or care.

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Yeah, that's true. Of life, right? Of anything. Yeah, of anything at all. Speaking of last episode, I read a hometown murder at the end.

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that caused me to need to talk about it during therapy. No, the punk rock finger one.

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Yeah. Oh yeah, that's heavy. And I skimmed over the middle for everyone. I kind of told you a little bit about it,

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but I accidentally read the whole thing to myself. Yes. And it was so awful. And for like a week,

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I kept picturing the girl who'd gotten killed in a way that like I haven't, I've been pretty good at like being okay

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with this topic that we talk about and study all the time. Yes. But that one really fucked me up.

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I bet. Well, the idea that it's this girl alone at a concert. No, her finger was at a concert.

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She was hitchhiking. She was, okay. That's a bad mistake. This is how much I couldn't read it.

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It's like, I just didn't tell any of the details. But was she hitchhiking alone?

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She was hitchhiking alone, got picked up by three guys her age. I can't remember if she knew them.

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I know. She didn't know them if she was hitchhiking. She didn't know them. Yeah.

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Unless you're saying unless they were in town. Yeah. But it like I started picturing all the times that I have done things that stupid when I was younger And why was it her that that happened to and how horrifying those last few minutes were and what like I just have I just go there yeah I understand but my therapist really

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helped me so now I'm better what'd she say just give us some over overall well I have this problem

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with like daydreaming so deep that I'm there yes and I don't even notice it and so she says before

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you get into those daydreams, you just give yourself a second of awareness that you're

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going into them before that happens. It'll rewire your neurons and you won't just like be true.

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It's like a moment of clarity and then then you can do it. You shouldn't. But and then also since I'm gone mentally to be like, what does that lamp look like?

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What are my hands touching right now? What does this feel like? Just to be really present in the moment.

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So you can tell the difference between imagining something that you think may have happened

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reality. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I'm not in reality anymore. Yeah. So like just point out things

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in your brain that are actually in front of you and happening. That's good. Yeah. I would add

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breathing on top of that. I constantly hold my breath. Me too. And I just have to remind myself

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and do weird, like deep. Yeah. Just simple breathing because I'm gone and breathing isn't

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even part of it anymore. No. And holding my breath makes me feel like I'm going to get through it

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better. Yeah. Or something. And that's almost like you're pausing reality. Yeah.

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And so breathing isn't even part of it. I do that so much, but oftentimes it's to fight with people in my head.

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Oh, I do that too. Like to present arguments. And you're really good at it in your head.

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I'm so good at it in my head. And they listen because you're right. And I move them with my words.

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Yeah. And they stop acting like dicks. Yeah. That's all completely fantasy. The idea that any of that is how it works.

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Right. Total fantasy. The reality is you're just crying and angry and then can't say anything.

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And you kind of, the words come out like this a little bit. I just want to say, and look, here's the thing.

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I understand. Why can't we be sociopaths? Staring down, unblinkingly staring at a person while you're like, I don't forgive you.

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I feel like this is not an official thing, as is every other thing I say on this podcast.

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Not an official thing ever. This is the unofficial corner. Oh, my God. Someone pointed out and made a fake graph. This made me laugh so hard on the Facebook page. When I made the correction, I said when I made the correction, one in four, I said that one in four people were sociopaths and my correction was 25% of people. Someone made a graph and it made me laugh so hard.

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That is amazing. Oh, shit, people. Everyone is so funny. So here's a good segue into the presents we just got.

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I'm holding a cold beer to the stab wound that I gave myself. OK, can I just explain this very quickly?

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So we had Georgia has a little pile of presents waiting for me when I got home to her apartment from work.

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No, this isn't my home. And it was like I waited for you so we can open these up.

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We wanted to open them off air so it wouldn't take forever. and one of them I opened two because uh Georgia was slightly afraid they could be a bomb or

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something dangerous like Karen's face so I'll go I was like I'll go ahead and take the hit I mean

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you're off camera talent you know I need this I can have the eye patch yeah all you need are your

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is your brain that's and I would love for my teeth to be blown out so I can have get some

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awesome veneers anyhow yeah so I did the first two and Georgia was like I said she picked up

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the third one. And I said, Do you want me to open that? And she was like, I can do it. I'm not that

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insane or whatever it was you said anxiety. And then she went to open it and stabbed herself

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in the bare leg with a pair of scissors. And it I have to tell you as painful as I'm sure it is.

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It's also hilarious. It's one of those things. And this happens to me a lot where I'm glad it

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happened because it's worth it. I run into stuff all the time and like do dumb shit. And I'm like,

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I'm so glad that that happened. Yes. That's humor and life. Instead of just when you look down and

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have a rando, uh, that's the second time I said that word and I've never really said it before at

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all. Um, what's going on? What teen boy am I trying to impress? Um, when you look down and

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there's just a huge bruise for no reason where you're just like, do this mean I have blood

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cancer? Yeah. Why? The majority of my bruises I don't remember getting and it's not because I'm

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constantly drunk. I'm not. You're not. And I, and I mean, when I'm drunk, I'm smooth as shit too.

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Like I'm good. I'm much better in person when I'm drunk. When you're drunk, what I notice is that

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you seem to just enjoy every single thing that goes on. Really? Yeah. You just have a big smile

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on your face and you think everything's kind of funny and like enjoyable, it seems like. Yeah.

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I like, um, I think I like, I understand moments so much better and understand people and get,

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get life better. Yeah. Which is like so unhealthy, but I think maybe I'm not anxious. Maybe that's

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it. Maybe I'm amused and not anxious deep down under underneath. Yeah. When you use beer to

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uncover your true personality. Well, we got some, Oh my God. Amazing. Yes. We just had it like a

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baby July Christmas. What was that? That was someone slamming the door, but it sounded like

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a gun. That, that sounded like a half firework to me. Yeah, it did. Um, all right. Start.

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We got a beautiful card. That's the sparkliest thing. It's gorgeous. With a really funny,

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cute joke on the front and really great printing inside. Beautiful printing. The kind of printing

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I wish I could do, but I don't understand why that looks the way it does. I might,

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I don't know, do this. I might trace over the handwriting later. It's so satisfying.

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Have you ever tried that? I've never done it. This card is from Emily and she just said a bunch of lovely things and it basically a thank you card for our podcast which is the cutest thing of all time She was raised well Girl and she likes a card we like to thank her parents for this card mr and mrs emily parents right um move on to the next one then

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we got from candace she sent us this really fucking rad her she's going to start doing murder

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zines and the first one is uh the murder zine is called the matilda effect and the first one is

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about Francis Glessner Lee. They're women in science scenes. Oh, I thought they were murder.

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No, they're women in science. Women in science scenes. Sorry. But the first one is about a woman who, did she want to be a cop?

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Did that card say? Yeah, she wanted to be a scientist. She's basically, if you guys have seen the documentary, The Nutshell Studies, where this

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woman way back when really wanted to be a doctor, a nurse, and she wasn't allowed to because of her

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family. I think she was a rich, I think she was from a wealthy family. So instead, she started to

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make detailed miniature models of composite crime scenes. So she just made miniature crime scenes so

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that cops could study them without screwing up the crime scene. And she's just had this huge effect

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on crime scene procedure. And she's incredible. I love Candace. You can get these at Smut Punks.

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It's S-M-U-T-P-U-N-X dot com. And she's going to make she makes other buttons and stuff that she just makes shit.

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And I haven't seen a fucking zine in real life in so long. I know. Do you ever make a zine?

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No, I never did. I made a zine for it's like a tribute to Ray Bradbury and D-Light combined.

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Yeah. Wow. Because those are two things you like. That's what I liked in F-16. So seeing a zine is like exciting.

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It's very cool. And I think you should I think we should all support zines. You know what I did was I just assumed that Candace made a zine for all the things I like instead of what she's interested in women in science.

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This was, yeah, it was specifically for me. Well, it is a true crime subject. Yes.

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And so fascinating. It's called The Nutshell. What's the documentary called? The Nutshell Studies.

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You got to watch it. Yeah, it's great. Candace, thank you. Thank you so much. Please keep remaining to be a badass.

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Then we got this amazing puzzle from Holly. She said, Karen and Georgia, thanks so much for sharing your favorite murders.

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I made a puzzle about mine. Thought you might like it. Like it? Yeah. We fucking lost our minds.

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I'm so excited. I kind of begged Karen for it. It's a 3D puzzle of H.H. Holmes murder castle in Chicago, which is the best thing of all time.

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so I think everybody probably knows but if you're if you just started liking true crime right H.H.

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Holmes they're I think they're going to make the devil in the white city movie with Leo DiCaprio

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and you can get this uh where can you get her the puzzle yeah wait wait okay you can get

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hollycarden.com so it's h-o-l-l-y-c-a-r-d-e-n and I think she's going to start just making

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true crime puzzles. That's amazing. I cannot wait to make this. I'll take photos.

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It's very cool. So anyway, she started off with H.H. Holmes' Murder Castle, which you can watch the movie.

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It's the best story ever. If you get creeped out by premeditated planned psycho murder, this is the story for you.

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And I would do it, but they did it on last podcast on the left. I know. I am not.

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It's been done a lot. It's been done a lot. And it's very well known and a movie is going to come out.

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Yeah. So we let we let we it got taken care of. Yeah. In our minds. And finally.

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Oh, my God. And then finally, Bethany, who may Bethany Jones. I'm assuming these people are OK with their names being said.

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Yeah, I think they want to shout out, which they absolutely. So Bethany Jones is from the base element makeup bath and body.

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I would call it company. and um she sent us uh her card says i hope you like your namesake lipsticks i loved creating

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them while listening to your podcasts all of your podcasts one after the other i twitch

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and fittingly when i was done my kitchen looked like a murder scene and i was smeared red to the

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elbows um i've got a bit rock and roll and made the skull bath bombs in your honor to

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see what an inspiration you are stay sexy don't get murdered it's so awesome this box smelled we

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could smell the bath bombs from outside that's why it wasn't a bomb because i feel like they

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wouldn't go to the trouble of making it pleasant a soapy bomb oh my god i didn't think about that

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yeah that's right you were right see you're right all along psychic but bombs can be good

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bombs can be good so we we just got a shit ton of lip gloss and lip balm and lip scrub and

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eyeshadow a lot of them are named like have quotes from the podcast there's a fucking

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lip balm called elvis want a cookie and once we we got excited and exclaimed that when we saw it

00:17:05

elvis lost his fucking mind because he thought he was getting one so i had to give him one yeah we

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kept saying elvis we i won't say it again i know uh but yeah there's i mean our names are on he on

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lip balms this is this is right up my alley she's gonna make them she just wanted us to get the first

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ones which is so fucking cool yeah um so you can go to the the base element at etsy yeah and buy

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murderino and non-murderino you guys we can have our own makeup line fucking love this podcast from

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bethany it's so cool it's very cool thank you for our gifts totally worth it to open up to open you

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up to danger i know and get that pot that po box hey look that's plenty of presents that's plenty

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I'm okay with the – I talked to my therapist about it. I really fucking lost my shit this last week I talked to her about it I got some pepper spray The reality is it not going to fucking I mean what are the chances that going to happen It not Then I get scared when you say that

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Sorry. All right. If you really, really want to find it, and if you actually have something that you're

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making that's like legit, you can have the PO box. Also, there's 80 million ways to contact us so that you could probably say,

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hey, here's what I'm going to send you. Totally. And here's a copy of my driver's license so that if I do harm you in any way.

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Right. And now we have evidence. I can be contacted. Evidence. It's all on the internet.

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So that was present, present, that was present corner. What we call present corner.

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We do have a little, some other housekeeping. Oh yeah, I have a couple of things.

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Okay, really quickly and then we'll get to my favorite murder. We want to promote two shows that we're going to be guests on.

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One of them is coming up on the 27th of July. It's next week. It is Jamie, our friend Jamie Lee, who's a very funny comedian.

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she and her husband Dan have a live show called date night and we're going to be guests on it on

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the panel the 27th you said the 27th that's Wednesday 8 p.m at UCB Franklin so if you live

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in LA it's the good UCB not the stupid one on sunset careful can I is that okay everyone knows

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that right um I love you see I'm sorry I'm sorry Susan who works at UCB I'm sorry listen to me

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Susan. I love you. And then we're going to be guests on the 200th episode of The Dollop.

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And it's a live show. And we're going to be guests. We're the two guests with Dave Anthony

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and Gareth Reynolds. The Dollop is a very popular biweekly history podcast where they tell the

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craziest stories. So fucking excited for this. It's at the Meltdown, of course, in Los Angeles.

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It's on August 16th. It's at 7 p.m. It's going to fucking sell out. $12 tickets.

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Oh, yeah. And it's 7 p.m. show, which anytime I'm booked on a 7 p.m. show, I either miss it entirely or seven minutes before it starts, I remember that it's 7 and not 8.

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And the whole time you're like, I hate you. What the fuck is wrong? Yes. So do you want me to remind you a couple times?

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Yes, please. Yes. If you would do that, that would help me a lot. You got it. Thank you.

00:20:11

So that's Promotion Corner. Um, and then pod fest is coming up September 23rd. Yeah.

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That's a, that's a future. That's a future one. That's it's that weekend of September 23rd.

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We're not sure which day we are booked yet, but, um, I think the way it works is that you

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buy a pass for like either a day or the weekend. Um, but it's, they've done it now a couple of years.

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I think this is either the third or fourth year and it's super fun and very cool.

00:20:41

And they have, they get amazing podcasts. always wanted to be on it. I've been secretly like, I hate the popular kids. And then I'm like,

00:20:47

oh, the popular kids want to hang out with me? Oh my God. That's so cool. I'm in with the popular

00:20:51

kids. Then when you get in with the popular kids, you're like, what a bunch of fucking nerds. I miss

00:20:57

my nerdy friends. It happens every time. We at some point need to talk about how we went to the

00:21:02

live last podcast on the left show. Can we talk about it right now? Really? Yeah. Let's talk about

00:21:08

Karen and I this past weekend, thanks to fucking Mark. So Vince, my husband is friends with all of them from comedy from New York, from New York.

00:21:20

And I kind of was like, hey, well, you asked Marcus, who is a good friend, Marcus Parks, what T-shirt company they use to get their shirts printed.

00:21:27

But it was totally just a ruse to get him to fucking know about the podcast. And he told he said to Vince, oh, I didn't know it's your wife.

00:21:34

I love the podcast. Tell them thank you so much for all the shout outs. and then we both just collectively lost our minds yes and georgia texted me that he said that and i

00:21:42

it was like a six text exchange of freak out yeah and then he gave us um tickets to their live show

00:21:49

that was last weekend and we went oh my god it was if you like that podcast it was five times

00:21:56

funnier in person they watched they showed this crazy old was swedish or swiss it's called hexed

00:22:04

It was a silent movie about the terror of wishes. And who was the, was it William Burroughs?

00:22:12

Who was the speaker? Anyways. Yeah, yeah, it was. The old drug addict guy. Yeah, who just is a, I don't know why he narrates anything.

00:22:19

He's terrible. Someone's going to get real pissed about me saying that. What'd you just say?

00:22:23

I thought it was a terrible narration. Yeah, he's on heroin. Yeah, he's not good at voiceover.

00:22:30

Well, then they just told jokes or like talked about it over it. And it was so funny.

00:22:33

and they're all like the fucking nicest dudes. And they were, their jokes were hilarious and they were,

00:22:38

it was very cool. And there was a huge, the whole place was sold out. It was a huge crowd who were going bananas.

00:22:45

Yeah. So anyone who's a fan, the last podcast on the left, you would have been very proud.

00:22:49

Yeah. And, and yeah, it turns out they're awesome and you are correct. Yep. Cool.

00:22:55

Uh, goodbye. Bye. Thank you. No. And also we have an Instagram account. Oh God, go to it,

00:23:01

follow it. Instagram.com slash my favorite murder. there'll be photos of all of the shit we got lots of other shit i post a lot of stuff up there

00:23:09

where did you go just now uh deep inside i saw it i'm a little warm because we had to

00:23:18

we had to shut the apartment down for recording purposes uh which is good but i got a little warm

00:23:25

and then i'm just to be totally honest oh no no it was a good thing i'm just excited that

00:23:31

about the pants I'm wearing. I swear to God. I literally was going to say, well, you can take your pants off if you want,

00:23:38

if you're hot. No, I'm excited because they are kind of thick, but I just haven't worn them in a long time.

00:23:43

Tell us about your pants. It's a real victory. Let's tell everyone about the other person's outfit.

00:23:48

You have these cute jeans on. They're just old lucky jeans, but I stopped eating sugar

00:23:54

and now I can wear all my old clothes again. How do you feel? You look fucking incredible.

00:23:59

Thank you. I feel a thousand times better. You seem like a waker. I'm much more awake and I'm less infuriated at all times.

00:24:08

Also, it turns out that you have the sharpest cheekbones I've ever seen anyone have in my life.

00:24:13

I didn't know. Well, they were way under all of my fat face. I was taking a five year break from society.

00:24:24

And so I decided I'm coming back now. And so I get to wear small pants and, you know, shirts that I actually like.

00:24:32

I can see your arms. You can see my tan, tan, tan arms. Every time I look at my arms, I think of you freaking out how tan my arm looked.

00:24:38

You're very tan. You have a low cut. I mean, for us. Yeah. For girls like us, low cut.

00:24:44

It's very low cut. And my whole red bra is showing. Yeah. No, just kidding. Hey, everyone.

00:24:53

It's Cal Penn, host of Earsay, the Audible and iHeart Audiobook Club. This week on the podcast, I'm sitting down with Lily Chu, the author of the Audible original romantic comedy Just Kiss Already.

00:25:06

It's a story about a forensic anthropologist who secretly writes mystery novels, an actress who adapts his book into a film,

00:25:14

and what happens when a meme and a media tour collide with a slow burn romance. It's performed by Simu Liu and Philippa Su, and it is an absolute blast.

00:25:25

When you actually hear the performance, you realize that other people are taking your words and what you thought was kind of a straightforward sentence like, the cat in the corner is black.

00:25:37

In my head, it's the cat in the corner is black, not the dog, not the gerbil. But someone else might say it. The cat in the corner is black.

00:25:44

that's always fascinating to me how they just bring in all these different nuances and really

00:25:50

make it fun and interesting and distinctive listen to earsay the audible and iheart audiobook club

00:25:56

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Visit Redfin.com to start finding and start owning. That's Redfin.com. Cool. Oh, Georgia's wearing a romper, a sleeveless romper, strapless romper.

00:27:48

I'm wearing, I'm just showing everything. She kind of is, it looks like she has an old-fashioned bathing suit on.

00:27:54

That's our girl, though. She's a naturalist and she's body proud. Yeah, I just also sweat a lot.

00:28:01

So I just wear as little as possible. I mean, Los Angeles is in front of our eyes turning into a desert.

00:28:06

It is. It's fucked. Turning back into a desert. Back in. Yeah, the earth is taking Los Angeles back into its natural form.

00:28:14

This whole time I thought that global warming wasn't a thing. And then... Now you're convinced?

00:28:18

Now I know. Because of your romper, the number of rompers that you have to buy and wear?

00:28:23

I think it's a conspiracy that Target is playing to get to sell rompers. It's working.

00:28:30

Hey, do you want to talk about our favorite murders? We might as well. Skippers, come back to us.

00:28:35

It's time. I think you're first. Is it me? I think so. The murder that I chose this week.

00:28:43

Yes, Karen. And my favorite murder is one that's always, it's been one that like the first time I read it,

00:28:51

I couldn't I would have to turn my eyes away from the page because it is horrible and horrifying.

00:29:00

But also, like, there's an underpinning of salaciousness to it that I thoroughly enjoy.

00:29:05

It's about Mary Bell, the child child killer. Fuck. Yeah. The childhood child killer.

00:29:13

Yes. Now, what I realized in looking through my researchers, my research searches today, I mean, from weeks ago.

00:29:23

Right. For when all that research you've been. Oh, just piles and piles. Every night I go to the city library like Morgan Freeman and I let the guy play.

00:29:31

It's the same one from Ghostbusters, Ghostbusters movie, right? The big, huge, cavernous, ghosty.

00:29:36

Yes. I go down in the basement where the very old dead ghost librarian is. Microfiche is involved.

00:29:43

You scroll micro fish. Just for hours. Hours. So in the pictures of Mary Bell, which we should put up on the Instagram page.

00:29:52

I will. That's what I looked like when I was little. Exactly So I always had a bit of a connection to mary bell uh in in certain ways but i also know and we got called out um i think it was on i can remember

00:30:08

the woman the girl's name but the girl that shot up the the school i don't like mondays

00:30:13

oh my god mary anyways sorry it um lisa that that girl we kind of got there's um a couple people

00:30:24

are like we were being too sympathetic to her or being like too nice when normally we're mean

00:30:28

if it's like a man and it's older we're mean and like hang him high I don't disagree with that

00:30:34

I know I mean everyone has a lot to say about every single thing but I can see that point I'm

00:30:39

not gonna argue I agree well I brought it up because I was thinking is that how I'm gonna

00:30:44

be about Mary Bell but the truth is I honestly believe that Mary Bell is a psychopath I think

00:30:51

she anytime she seems sympathetic it's because she's trying to seem sympathetic right i think

00:30:57

she is like i think she's nightmare like we need to talk about kevin yeah the bad seed she's the

00:31:04

reality of all of that fiction evil child right like nothing can be done now i think there's a

00:31:10

reason she's that way i don't she may have been born that way because they do talk about how she

00:31:14

from an early age like didn't bond but she had this fucking crazy mother either way to me i'm

00:31:22

i'm just want to say it at the start i'm not defending her i'm not defending maribel okay

00:31:27

but i also want to say another thing about it whenever there's like a child molester or a

00:31:31

murderer or someone we talk about their past and we're like yeah that sucks what are we but i don't

00:31:35

i don't think we were softer on her i don't either i think we're always like investigating

00:31:41

the past of the person who's killing people that doesn't exonerate them from. But I think sometimes, you know, when it's personal opinion, which is all all of this

00:31:50

podcast is, sometimes more empathy will come out. Even if you have it, you won't express it.

00:31:56

Like, I don't have a ton of empathy for Richard Ramirez, even though he did get hit in the

00:32:01

swing and the worst uncle in the world. Yeah, whatever. We're just saying it's understandable that this person didn't become a normal member

00:32:09

of society. Yes. And for me, that's what's interesting to me. When you can, when it's not just, oh, you were born with this defect where you do not have mirror neurons and you do not empathize with other human beings. That's one thing. But like, if there's like a little path, you could have been normal.

00:32:26

Totally. If you didn't experience this parent or this aunt or whatever, it's some awful pit that you fell in in your childhood.

00:32:34

To me, that's like, that's really what's fascinating. That's the study. That's the study.

00:32:40

Yeah. The effect that they killed someone and murdered them and raped and all these horrible things.

00:32:47

That's the effect. You know, there's a cause and effect. Yeah. Et cetera. Yeah. And the cause is fascinating.

00:32:53

Right. And if I had A, an education, B, didn't have ADD, I would probably read up on it a ton and become some type of a learned expert about it.

00:33:05

Me too. Instead? Instead, I work in TV, so I am rewarded for not paying attention to anything.

00:33:12

But we do have a true crime podcast, so I think we're good. I think we're basically doing that.

00:33:20

Yeah, we're doing our best. Anyhow. Sorry. Go on. No. So I've always found Mary Bell fucking fascinating.

00:33:31

Totally. So this happened in 1968. Ooh. Actually, I thought it happened a lot longer ago.

00:33:36

That's cool. 68. Yeah. And it happened in the inner city suburb of Newcastle in England.

00:33:44

That's Stephen King's town, right? No, no, no. In England. Never mind. Newcastle.

00:33:51

No. Newcastle Rock. It's Castle Rock. Oh, yeah. Castle Rock. Yeah. He's all about Maine.

00:33:55

Can we just strike all of that from the record? Yes, absolutely. We're going to go in and edit this down so good.

00:34:01

No, we're not. No, we're not at all. And we never do. Okay. So she was born to a unwed, unstable 17-year-old sex worker named Betty McCricket.

00:34:18

and Betty used to leave her daughter with relatives and acquaintances just dumped her

00:34:27

off anytime she could because she had to go she I guess she would go into Glasgow a lot

00:34:34

and work as as a sex worker even as a non-17 year old sex worker that I was the thought of having a

00:34:44

child at 17. Nightmare. Nightmare. It's just, it's what a great opportunity for a ton of bad

00:34:51

decisions. Like this one where she once gave Mary to a woman she met on the street outside

00:34:58

an abortion clinic. Shut up. Yeah. Betty was doing it. So her, apparently their household

00:35:06

was filthy and sparsely furnished. And the Betty's family members said that Betty tried to kill Mary

00:35:14

more than once in her first few years of life and tried to make it look accidental.

00:35:20

So they all became very suspicious when Mary, quote unquote, fell out a window. Head trauma.

00:35:26

Possibly. And also when she accidentally consumed sleeping pills. What the fuck?

00:35:31

So they think she could have definitely gotten brain damage because she had sleeping pills,

00:35:36

iron pills, and apparently Betty would feed the pills to Mary and tell them they were candy.

00:35:44

Oh, for fuck's sake. There are some people who now say that they think Betty probably had Munchausen by proxy which is the fascinating disease where a parent gets addicted to the attention and sympathy that they get from a sick child

00:36:06

And so they make the child sick on purpose. It's basically what happened in the movie Seven when the barfing girl finally brings him back to her house.

00:36:14

That's a great scene. No, that's Seven. We both. The other number movie, The Sixth Sense.

00:36:24

Our brains are sinking up because that was just. Oh, you know, it's so hilarious.

00:36:28

Yeah, we're it's like our mistake brains are like, I did the same thing where when I was talking about the Polly class murder, I called it.

00:36:38

I called it Cloverfield, which is a movie and the city name where her body was found is Cloverdale.

00:36:46

And Adrian, my friend. The whole time you called it that? Yeah, I think I only said it once.

00:36:51

Adrian texted me and she's like, dude, it's Cloverdale. You, you went there for softball

00:36:56

games. What are you doing? And I just like, she's like, I'm the only one that noticed,

00:36:59

but seriously, it's Cloverdale. Yeah. Grow up. Maybe you were just trying to protect the town.

00:37:05

So people like, so look, you lose wouldn't show up there. That's right. That's what you were doing.

00:37:08

Just stay away from Cloverfield. Um, so bad news, obviously, and in her upbringing. Um,

00:37:17

And so, of course, at school, Mary was known as a chronic liar, disruptive pupil.

00:37:23

She on occasion would voice her desire to hurt people. She did a lot of kicking and punching and lying.

00:37:34

And so all the kids, they would make fun of her a lot because she was just basically a monster and a mess.

00:37:39

and later on it sorry I was just trying to figure out but basically later on it came to be discovered

00:37:52

that Mary's mother would use her and sell her in prostitution as well from the age of four

00:37:59

holy shit I guess this is another thing that does fascinate me this is another thing

00:38:06

that like that kind of trauma can affect you and does affect your personality. Completely.

00:38:12

So she was subjected to really awful things at such a young age that they think that that

00:38:20

that probably plays into the psychopathy and the behavior. Yeah. You're like, this isn't a safe world.

00:38:28

Nothing is safe. I need to fucking defend myself. And I want to start hurting others the way I'm being hurt.

00:38:33

And it's a way that it's normal. It's the way children. Yeah. It's the way children communicate that they're being hurt.

00:38:38

when they know they're not allowed to talk about it. Fascinating. Totally. Okay, so on May 25th, 1968,

00:38:47

two boys playing in an abandoned house found the corpse of four-year-old Martin Brown

00:38:52

lying in an upstairs room. Mary Bell and her friend Norma Bell, who was not related to her,

00:38:57

they just had the same last name, followed the boys inside the house, and when the police arrived,

00:39:03

the two girls had to be ordered out. So they really liked looking at this dead body.

00:39:08

How old were they? Mary was just about to turn 11. Okay. And Norma Bell was 13, but Mary was the dominant of the two.

00:39:18

Sure. Like a little more mature and smart. There was no obvious cause of death. So it was assumed that Martin Brown had swallowed pills from a discarded bottle, which was found nearby.

00:39:29

So the next day, Norma Bell's father caught Mary choking Norma and he slapped her face and sent her home.

00:39:40

She was choking her so bad. Holy shit. The day after this little boy died. And later that same day, a local nursery school was vandalized and police discovered notes that read,

00:39:54

Fuck off, spelled F-U-C-H-O-F. Uh, we murder, watch out, fanny and faggot. Um, faggot does not mean faggot in England.

00:40:07

Just quick reminder to everybody. I think it means cigarette. Yeah. Um, or a bundle of sticks.

00:40:15

Fanny means your pussy. Oh, it does? Yeah. Huh. In over there. At least I know it doesn't Ireland.

00:40:21

Oh, you're right. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. So I think they're just trying to write.

00:40:25

Okay. Um, I'm not sure. Maybe they meant it bad. if they're writing fanny they might have meant faggot in the bad way who knows they also wrote

00:40:33

we did murder martin brown fuck off you bastard again off with one f so it really says fuck of

00:40:40

fuck up um the cops dismissed the instant when they found the writing they dismissed it as a prank

00:40:46

so four days later mary bell appeared at the brown residence asking to see martin and uh when she was

00:40:54

reminded that Martin was dead. Wait, she showed up? She showed up at the dead boy's house asking

00:41:01

to see him. And when the adult that answered the door reminded her that Martin was dead,

00:41:06

or it was the mother that answered the door. And when the mother said, he's dead, Mary said,

00:41:12

oh, I know he's dead. I want to see him in his coffin. Oh my God. Can you, what would you do?

00:41:17

I'd scream. I'd run screaming. I mean, a little girl, too. Yeah. Who's. Yeah. OK, so two months later, three year old Brian Howe goes missing and a median search is mounted.

00:41:33

And Mary Bell tells Brian's sister that he might be playing on a heap of concrete blocks that had been dumped out in a nearby vacant lot.

00:41:42

and which is where he was discovered dead from manual strangulation legs and stomach and penis

00:41:49

mutilated with a razor and a pair of scissors the police discover at the scene the letters m and n were scratched into his stomach oh fuck So as the investigation narrows Mary So so somebody that had been walking by said they saw kids around that pile of stones that day

00:42:12

And then when they took the three year old's body into the corner, he said, it looks like he's strangled, but it's such light force that I think we're looking at a child murderer.

00:42:27

So then the cops went around and started interviewing all the kids in the neighborhood.

00:42:33

And Mary and Norma were both dinged right away because their stories kept changing.

00:42:39

Mary acted super weird. They got freaked out by how creepy and weird she was. And Norma couldn't stop giggling.

00:42:47

Holy shit. So Mary, when the investigation got narrowed on to Mary Bell, she suddenly remembered seeing an eight-year-old boy with Brian on the day he died.

00:43:00

And she said that the boy hit Brian for no reason and that she said that same boy had been playing with broken scissors.

00:43:06

um uh the but the boy she was naming a specific boy she was basically trying to pin it on him

00:43:13

but he had been at the airport that afternoon oh fuck and so the thing that mary didn't know

00:43:19

is that the scissors were confidential evidence no one knew about the scissors oh mary that wasn't

00:43:26

public when you're a fucking 10 year old murderer is that you didn't you don't understand you can't

00:43:32

keep your shit in line dude yeah so baffling she essentially implicates herself uh with the scissor

00:43:41

comment and she had described them exactly so she's trying to pin it on the other boy yeah and

00:43:47

in doing so she's like they were silver colored and some there was something wrong with them like

00:43:51

one leg was either broken or bent so she basically describes the exact scissors to a t i mean smart

00:43:57

Smart, smart investigating by the cops that they like figured this shit out pretty quickly.

00:44:04

And can you imagine sitting in an in a room across from an 11 year old girl when you see this picture?

00:44:11

Big blue eyes, little button nose, kind of vacant. Just think baby Karen. But just think baby Karen.

00:44:18

I was precious lamb, but she's lying to you. So you're buying her at first and then she does the old inglorious bastards holding up a three.

00:44:29

And you don't even want it to be true. Like you're not even like we're going to get this guy.

00:44:34

No. It's like, wait a second. You just said this wrong thing. Creepy enough that the coroner says you're probably going to want to look for a kid because a kid strangled a three-year-old.

00:44:44

So you probably don't want it to be true. You probably have children of your own.

00:44:46

And this little girl is like. Yeah, the scissors. I mean, the chill that would go down your back.

00:44:53

So, so, uh, okay. I did the slidey thing again, which I always do. So, um, Brian Howe was buried

00:45:07

on August 7th and the, the investigative detective was named detective Dobson and he was there.

00:45:13

And he says, Mary Bell was standing in front of the house house when the coffin was brought out.

00:45:19

I, of course, was watching her. And it was when I saw her there that I knew I did not dare risk another day. She stood there laughing, laughing and rubbing her hands. I thought, my God, I've got to bring her in or she'll do another one.

00:45:37

Holy shit. So they bring in Mary Bell. Why are you laughing? Psychopath? Because it's me.

00:45:46

She's also rubbing her hands together right now. Because I'm picturing it and it's like how they why don't they make this movie?

00:45:53

It's the creepiest thing of all time. Seriously. This is like the ring, except for the girl has her hair back out of her face.

00:46:03

And she's like she thinks she's getting away with it. She wanted to kill that little kid.

00:46:08

She killed him. And then she wanted to see his dead body it carried out of the house.

00:46:13

it's just what's so crazy is the like you know when you when adults kill they like try really

00:46:19

hard to hide it and try to outsmart people that's like what you do but this little person who i guess

00:46:24

you can argue didn't understand that either death was permanent or what it meant

00:46:30

maybe maybe maybe or she enjoyed the feeling so much that she had done it she you know because

00:46:39

there was some killer that we talked about where they said, I want people to feel on the outside

00:46:44

the way I feel on the inside. Was that the one of those Cheshire murders? Yeah. Or was it the

00:46:50

person you talked about last week? No. Either way. This is a factual, factual corner. It's that thing

00:46:59

of like when you finally feel right in the world is when like, that's how she felt right. She killed

00:47:06

that she had the power to take his life away and put him in that box. She finally had power.

00:47:11

But she also had to be a little bit like arrested in her. Yes. She couldn't be smart enough.

00:47:21

She couldn't have been smarter than a 10-year-old. She just didn't understand right from wrong.

00:47:26

Oh, no? You don't think so? Go on. Because this is where it gets crazy. Oh, my God. This is where?

00:47:33

This is where, well, this is where it shows that she was raised by two criminals because her mother ended up marrying, I think his name was Billy Bell, and he was like a career criminal.

00:47:46

And so they clearly talked about being arrested, going in and out of jail and all this stuff.

00:47:50

Because when she's arrested, first of all, when they say you're going to be charged with murder, she said, that's all right by me.

00:47:57

Wow. Yeah. and uh she she sorry when she was in jail there was a stray cat in jail oh fuck and elvis cover your ears yeah elvis

00:48:19

you're not gonna like this she grabbed the cat no tightly by the neck and the guard told her not

00:48:24

to hurt the cat and mary mary allegedly replied oh she doesn't feel that in any way i like hurting

00:48:31

little things that can't fight back in another incident a policewoman said that mary said she'd

00:48:39

like to be a nurse quote because then i can stick needles into people i like hurting people oh my

00:48:46

So there was kind of a naive quality about it. Then also the jailers, once she was in there, she calmed down a little bit after a while.

00:48:56

And a lot of the jailers liked her, the guards, you know, because they said she was very smart.

00:49:02

She was very sharp. But she was a chronic bedwetter. Yeah. And she's got one of the pieces, probably two if we count those being overdosed on drugs by your mother.

00:49:15

And dropped out of a window. And dropped out of a window. Sure. Probably got two.

00:49:19

At least. What's the other one? Fires? Fire, yeah. Okay. No report of fire on her.

00:49:25

But she was terrified of going to sleep because she was afraid she was going to wet the bed.

00:49:33

And she said to one of the guards, I usually do. And at home, her mother would humiliate her anytime she wet the bed.

00:49:43

So she would rub her daughter's face in the pee when she found it and she would hang the mattress outside so the neighborhood would see it.

00:49:54

And we also all know that chronic bedwetting is a sign that you're being sexually molested, sexually abused.

00:49:59

It can be. I was a chronic bedwetter until I was like nine and I was not molested.

00:50:04

Me neither. But it is a sign. It's like it's one of those things. that harming animals, like all those things, that's a child that's in trauma and in danger.

00:50:15

Definitely. It's signs of. Definitely. Um, so when they went to trial, Norma was acquitted

00:50:22

of all charges and Mary was convicted of two counts of manslaughter. So I think it, uh,

00:50:30

they say that Norma was there. Norma had like eight brothers and sisters or some huge family

00:50:37

and their whole family was there supporting her. And she did a lot of crying on the stand and saying,

00:50:42

Mary did it, Mary did it. And Mary did the same thing or saying Norman did it. But all she had was her lunatic mother who was wearing a blonde wig

00:50:50

and would freak out so much and cry and do all these things that her wig would fall off.

00:50:56

And then she would get up and run out of the courtroom and then come back. And so because of that Munchausen's by proxy, like this was her drama.

00:51:03

She was basically, you know, say in the very slight chance that Mary wasn't guilty.

00:51:10

She was condemning her anyway, because no one had sympathy for that family. Whereas everyone was like, oh, this little girl's just been set up by Mary Bell.

00:51:20

And then in the tabloids, Mary Bell just became just the face of evil for years and years.

00:51:28

Yeah. They didn't have anywhere to put her because they didn't have they they'd never had to deal with sending an 11 year old girl to jail.

00:51:37

So there was like lots of places for juvie for little boys, but none for little girls.

00:51:41

So they had to keep her. They kept her in like a separate quarters in a in a boy's detention center for a long time until she was in her teens.

00:51:51

When she was in her teens, she escaped jail for a little while with two other boys.

00:51:56

But then they were only gone for two weeks. And then they went back. She spent up until her, like, I can't find it now.

00:52:08

I think it was like in her mid-20s in jail. And then when she got out, all of England was like freaking out.

00:52:14

They were super pissed. She made money off a book that someone wrote about her. Again, they were like, we need to pass laws.

00:52:20

you know whatever there's a really good movie about adult mary bell still in the prison system

00:52:28

and about to get out that stars emily watson and jim that amazing british actor so good in it

00:52:36

um but i'll find the name of it but it's it's so good i would recommend it to anybody but it is

00:52:42

it's the it's a dramatic version what's it called i don't i'm not sure um i think it was made for tv

00:52:49

in England. Yeah. So it's, but Emily Watson is the star. So if you look up at Mary Bell,

00:52:55

Emily Watson, you'll find it. I'll put a photo of it on Instagram. Yeah. Um, I'm, I can look it up right now, but, um, it's, it's worth watching because they are very

00:53:07

empathetic to her. And even though she's like criminal behavior, they, they really attribute

00:53:15

all of the they attribute both of the killings to her abusive terrible childhood wow but i don't

00:53:23

know the things those things of like it's one thing the stories of like the stuff she'd say

00:53:29

to the cops because she would say stuff like are you going to charge me like she she had a lot of

00:53:34

very adult vocabulary she understood about being in jail and being arrested yeah um you know

00:53:39

probably because of her parents, but she, she got out and then what? She ended up becoming a grandmother, like a mother and a grandmother.

00:53:48

She got pregnant. I don't think she got married. And then she was, I don know Did she change her name There was they passed a thing where they kept kept her Yeah she now lives under a pseudonym Right And the British people wanted that repeal

00:54:08

They wanted to make her live as herself. Oh. But they continued the ruling that she could live under a pseudonym for the rest of her life.

00:54:19

I wonder if her family even knows. Can you imagine finding when your grandma dies and you go on her stuff and find her fucking birth certificate?

00:54:28

They must know, right? Maybe. I bet. Maybe. I don't know. Why would you tell them?

00:54:37

I don't know. Would you want to know? If someone in my family was a murderer? If your mom had been a murderer.

00:54:44

Yes. I mean, if me right now, yes. Yeah. that would be I don't think I'd want to

00:54:53

find out if my grandma had been a murderer no I don't think I'd want to know you would not

00:54:59

because you just want to keep her as you know her yeah yeah that makes sense especially

00:55:07

at that age it would make me so sad for her that she you know that I don't know what else

00:55:21

I can't find this movie I don't care tell me more sorry no that's all I have okay that's a good one

00:55:28

she's a good one also I have this very bad habit where once the actual murder is over

00:55:36

I know people like the facts and stuff like that but it's all wrapping up too I don't care

00:55:41

listen we don't care about the 1500s And we don't care about. I just want to talk about a child murdering a child is insanity.

00:55:52

What if you were like hiking through the forest next to that empty lot and you fucking looked over?

00:55:57

That is the most upsetting. And saw the kid killing the kid? A little girl strangling a three-year-old.

00:56:04

It's insanity. I just don't think that they have the capacity to understand what they're doing.

00:56:11

Like when she said the thing about the cat, it doesn't hurt the cat. Yes. I don't think she understood other people and partly because probably she was psycho, but probably also because she was too young to know the permanence of death.

00:56:27

Yeah. Yeah. Those are big. Those are big concepts. And but also if she was a true psychopath, which the doctors in the in the trial said she was a child psychopath, that's very dangerous to other children.

00:56:41

But that means that she doesn't have any empathy. So, of course, she wouldn't think it would hurt the cat because she doesn't think of anything else as having emotions.

00:56:51

Yeah. Those two kids who kidnapped a little, a younger, a toddler from the mall in England.

00:56:59

What was their names? Those boys. Those little boys. Yeah. And they killed him. The weirdest part of that whole story, which I'll never do because everyone fucking knows it.

00:57:07

And I just don't remember. Bulger? Was his last name Bulger? anyways they shoved a battery up his butt and to me that is such a signal that they didn't

00:57:16

understand like they were trying to get him to work again oh he was dead when they did that

00:57:22

and to me it's like i could be completely wrong they were just it's a theory though that's

00:57:28

interesting they might have just been sodomizing him and being horrible well and also they could

00:57:32

be that could have like they could be mimicking what was happening to one of or both of them

00:57:37

Totally. But a battery specifically, it's almost a little toy. Yeah. Like that's how it is on a, like an adult.

00:57:43

Yeah. Those kids are, are also fucking changed their names and are out now. Really? Yeah. Cause they're out and living. Yeah.

00:57:51

Cause it happened so long ago. I mean, in this movie, in the Mary Bell movie, it is very convincing of like,

00:57:58

it's something she did as a damaged, damaged child. And now she's don't let her have a life.

00:58:03

She's paid the price for being in jail for 25 years or whatever it is. Yeah, but I bet the people who don't argue that are just the parents and the families of the two little boys who got killed.

00:58:14

Or like now she's often having a life and now she's a grandmother and they don't have anything.

00:58:19

Yeah. No, I know. It's rough. It is. It's crazy. Hey, everyone. It's Cal Penn, host of Earsay, the Audible and iHeart Audiobook Club.

00:58:30

This week on the podcast, I'm sitting down with Divergent author Veronica Roth to talk about her sprawling new novel, Seek the Traitor's Son.

00:58:39

It's a sci-fi fantasy epic about two protagonists on opposite sides of a war and a prophecy neither of them wanted.

00:58:45

My first book was Divergent. And when that came out, like, because it was so popular, I think it attracted like mostly positivity, but the negativity I sucked in like a sponge.

00:58:55

and I think it was like critiques of things I liked when I was like you know I was 23 and I

00:59:02

wrote this book and it had all my like dorky little cheesy or maybe unrealistic loves in it

00:59:08

and I started to feel a lot of shame about those things and so for the rest of my career

00:59:13

I steered away from those little things that like make you feel pleasure when you read but I also

00:59:21

was like saying no to these parts of myself that I then was like, screw it. So that's this book.

00:59:30

Listen to Earsay, the Audible and iHeart Audiobook Club on the iHeartRadio app or wherever you

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01:00:38

Let's talk about modern home shopping. It's sort of become a fun side hobby, right?

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01:01:37

That's redfin.com. What's your favorite murder of the week? Mine is also a child murder.

01:01:46

Is it really? Man, this is the wrong episode for parents. It is very weird. That's crazy.

01:01:52

It's very weird. But this is a parental murder. And this one has stuck with me. I've read about it for a long time because there's a photograph of the little girl who gets killed.

01:02:08

Oh, you're saying the child is murdered. The child murder. Got it. Child murder.

01:02:14

Yes. Got it. So there's a photo of the little girl the day before her death that really fucking stuck with me.

01:02:19

I hope that. Do you hear that? Yes. It sounds like thunder. My fucking downstairs neighbor plays some video game.

01:02:29

World of Warcraft. Call of Duty. Is that a thing? Yes. Call of Duty. Yeah. So if you hear that, I'm sorry.

01:02:33

So Lisa Steinberg. This poor little angel baby. That's the one. That's the one. Oh my God.

01:02:39

It's heartbreaking. This is the worst story. Okay. Sorry. It's okay. No, you're right.

01:02:44

I'm breathing. Okay. So it's in 1981, 45-year-old Hedda Nussbaum and 46-year-old Joel Steinberg, who was a defense attorney who sometimes handled adoption cases, Joel was.

01:02:58

They took custody of an infant girl that they named Lisa, and they illegally adopted her.

01:03:04

The child's birth mother had paid Steinberg, the attorney, a $500 legal fee to place the child with a Roman Catholic family.

01:03:11

But they just kept her instead. They were Jewish. I don't think that matters. But they, whatever.

01:03:18

Anyways. So this Hedda and Joel were a well-educated, they were upper class New York couple.

01:03:26

They lived in Greenwich Village in New York City. At school, Lisa's teachers said she was bright and friendly, but they worried about her arriving at school with bruises and chunks of hair missing from her head.

01:03:38

And she would tell them that her little brother, who was also a younger, who was an adopted child, had hit her.

01:03:44

And none of them had ever made reports of abuse, which changed a lot of stuff in the system.

01:03:51

So there's a photo from Halloween the day before this big incident happens that one of the teachers took of Lisa.

01:03:59

And all the other photos of her, she's smiling and cute and lovely. Are you looking at it right now?

01:04:03

No. Get off your computer. What are you doing? What are you looking at? I was trying to find that movie name.

01:04:08

God damn it. Sorry, sorry, sorry. That's so rude. It's okay. It's okay. And it's just a photo of her at her desk.

01:04:14

It's Halloween. All the other children are dressed up and she's wearing her normal clothes and she's just kind of staring off.

01:04:22

And it's this with this sad face, like an empty, sad face. And the next day on November 1st, 1987, Hedda, the mother, calls the police to report that her daughter had choked on food.

01:04:38

That's what she said. And when the police arrived, they found six year old Lisa Steinberg unconscious.

01:04:44

and she had multiple bruises on her body, and the mother had a claim that she had fallen a lot lately on her roller skates.

01:04:53

But Lisa was nude and had, according to the examiners from St. Vincent Hospital,

01:04:59

a huge reddish bruise on her scalp starting at the hairline, bruises and cuts that looked like someone had socked her on the chin,

01:05:09

and old healing marks of different colors on virtually every other part of her body.

01:05:14

Oh, my God. I know. And the little brother, who I think was a toddler or baby, was found roped to a chair.

01:05:22

He was drinking spoiled milk and was covered in filth. And this is an upper middle, like upper class Greenwich Village apartment.

01:05:30

So fucking neighbors had to know about this. So according to initial reports on November 1st, at around 7 p.m., Joel Steinberg had somehow rendered Lisa unconscious with severe blows to the head.

01:05:49

And what Hedda later said as the reasoning was that Lisa wanted to go to dinner with her father but he did not want to take her and then he inflicted the head injury because she wouldn stop bugging him about wanting to go to dinner But before he left the apartment Lisa was unconscious

01:06:07

So he left and the mother, Hedda, was alone with the kid who was dying for roughly 10 hours,

01:06:13

failing to notify police or medical personnel. Joel left and came back many times.

01:06:21

They were freebasing cocaine sometimes together because they were also like weird drug addicts.

01:06:26

Yeah. And she said she didn't. Hedda said she didn't call authorities because she believed that Joel had supernatural healing powers.

01:06:39

And she was waiting for him to come home and fix her, which we'll get into in a bit.

01:06:44

Don't do drugs. If you're going to do drugs, don't adopt children, stupid motherfuckers.

01:06:49

No, don't. So around 6 a.m. the next morning, Lisa stopped breathing. And shortly after, Steinberg called 911 at Nussbaum's urging.

01:07:00

Lisa died four days later in the hospital. And it was determined the cause of death was a head injury apparently inflicted by what they say was a rubber-headed hammer.

01:07:09

Holy shit. I know. It's heartbreaking. The St. Vincent doctors, this is according to Joyce Johnson, who wrote a book called What Lisa Knew.

01:07:17

the doctor showed a quote map of pain on her body yeah you know this poor little thing man i wish

01:07:25

i wish i they also let's see um the house was filthy and contained large quantities of

01:07:33

cocaine and other drugs and the couple was arrested on child abuse charges new york law state stated at the time that if one parent beats a child and the other stays silent

01:07:44

about it, each is equally guilty. But that's good. I know. But Hedda was late. I mean,

01:07:51

is it because is that giving any understanding to the to the other parent who didn't do it,

01:07:57

who was probably abused as well and victimized? We don't know. We don't know. But here's the

01:08:03

here's the so Hedda was later found to have been abused by Joel throughout their relationship.

01:08:09

she suffered from nine broken ribs a broken jaw and a broken nose and if you look at photos of

01:08:15

her at this trial and right after this happened this person is fucking disfigured yes like this

01:08:20

person's that she had to get uh cartilage from her quote good ear taken out to reconstruct her

01:08:27

nose which had collapsed because he'd punched her so many times yeah oh um so she wasn't

01:08:34

prosecuted due to the belief that years of abuse had rendered her incompetent at the time of the

01:08:39

murder. That makes sense. Yeah. And yeah, let's, we'll talk about fucking culpability, man. Instead,

01:08:48

she was sent to a psychiatric hospital. When the cops said that when they opened, when she opened

01:08:53

the door to let them in, when we, to help Lisa, she had at that moment, two black eyes, a split

01:08:59

lip, the bridge of her nose was gone and shards of bony cartilage were protruded out of her nose.

01:09:05

She had a bandage wrapped around her frizzled gray hair to hide spots where clumps had been torn out.

01:09:11

She was hunched and moved painfully like an old woman. Oh, my God. I know. In exchange for her testimony against Joel, Hedda was not prosecuted.

01:09:22

And Joel was charged with first degree manslaughter. So the trial. Okay. Go ahead.

01:09:33

Why not murder? I don't know. I don't need it. Okay. Oh, you know why? Because later it was said that if Hedda had called the ambulance at that moment, Lisa would have survived for sure.

01:09:50

So it wasn't his intent to murder her when he did kill her. Jesus Christ. Breathing, breathing, breathing, breathing.

01:10:02

What's around us right now? Seafoam Green Wall. We're here in 2016 and not in 80s New York in this horrible apartment.

01:10:10

What do you feel under your hand? I just remembered as you were describing her appearance, there was an amazing article in Oprah's magazine that she, Hedon Nussbaum, wrote.

01:10:21

Well, she wrote a book. Did she? Yeah. I bet that was just publicity then. And it was just an excerpt from the book.

01:10:27

I bet it was. It was unbelievable. She wrote a book about she does like talks and about being abusive relationships.

01:10:35

And she wrote a book about about it that I didn't really want to include because I don't want to make this about.

01:10:39

OK. You know, yeah, yeah, yeah. But we you know, I'm not she wrote a book. It's just the side by side of her when she was young, when she first met him.

01:10:46

And when she was arrested is she looks like an old witch. Yeah. And she was this gorgeous, young New York woman.

01:10:53

Yeah. When I just when she met him. I mean, this is the problem is I've never been.

01:10:58

It's not a problem. This is great. I've never been in an abusive relationship before.

01:11:02

So I don't know that fucking the head games and the way you have to rationalize things in your head because this person you care about, you know, is doing these things and you want to believe that they have no control over that.

01:11:21

They're not doing it on purpose, that they would never hurt you. Otherwise, your whole fucking world is just shattered and that's right.

01:11:26

Insane. And on top of that, they're using strong. They're freebasing at this point.

01:11:30

I mean, freebasing cocaine is like you're you're doing crack. You're crackhead. You're a psychopath.

01:11:36

Yeah. OK. And there was also some weird like cult stuff. And they had been convincing her that she like mind games with her that she had been sleeping around and had been hypnotized.

01:11:49

And there was just some very fucked up mind games with this guy, Joel. so, so, all right.

01:11:56

So the trial, so this is actually the first trial, which made, New York, which turned New York into the 44th state to allow television cameras in the courtroom.

01:12:06

Oh, hell yeah. Fucking watch. Like people tuned in constantly for this. Hedda testified that there were clear signs of sexual abuse on Lisa in 1983 when Lisa was two years old.

01:12:21

But that she did nothing about it. She said that her discovery came. So Lisa had spent three weeks with a Long Island couple that they had partied with.

01:12:30

that the couple partied with. She just let them stay with this couple. And what?

01:12:35

Yeah. Okay, go ahead. Now you go. Nothing. I just, I'm just, it's disgusting. Your face is telling me everything.

01:12:41

It's very upsetting. And Hedda said, I guess I was changing her diaper. I observed a bruise on her vagina,

01:12:48

a large bruise over her vaginal area. It was purplish, black, and blue. She said she did nothing.

01:12:54

And under cross-examination, yeah, She said she did nothing about it because she took it to Joel and thought he would handle it.

01:13:04

I hope I'm not. I hope everyone isn't listening. It happened. Okay. And oh, another thing that when she had a quoted that when he hit her and Lisa and she went unconscious, he yelled to her, look at what you made me do.

01:13:19

Oh, wow. Wow. So during the trial that, yeah, they said that Lisa's injuries were severe, but she would have almost certainly survived if given prompt medical treatment. So this is probably why he had manslaughter.

01:13:33

So the jury wanted to convict Steinberg on the more serious charge of second degree murder, but they couldn't because so they could only convict him of the of the second of the second most serious charge, which is first degree manslaughter.

01:13:48

So the judge then sentenced him to the maximum penalty then available. Guess how long that is, Karen?

01:13:57

God, is it seven years? Eight and one third to 25 years in prison. And he's a lawyer, right?

01:14:04

Yeah. Yeah. So on two occasions, so Steinberg served his time. On two occasions, he was denied discretionary parole because he never expressed any remorse for the killing.

01:14:15

He never said he was he hit her. He was always an argument that something happened with Hedda.

01:14:24

Yeah. But on June 30th, 2004, he was paroled under the state's, quote, good time law, meaning he did good time.

01:14:33

He was a good inmate. Congratulations. He wasn't a good father. Yeah. He was a rotten father and husband.

01:14:41

That's insane. All right. OK. It mandates the release of inmates who exhibit good behavior while incarcerated after having served as little as two thirds of the maximum possible sentence.

01:14:53

After his release, he moved to Harlem. And he works in the construction industry.

01:15:00

He continues to maintain his innocence. But there was this really great New York Magazine article where this journalist, I don't have his name, was like, clearly like this guy's full of shit.

01:15:10

He was interviewing his attorney, who's like just a fucking dick lick motherfucker.

01:15:17

Excuse me. Why now? What? Why now? We say fuck every five seconds. Why, excuse myself?

01:15:26

Excuse me. Excuse me for that. Something about dick lick motherfucker is a little more extreme.

01:15:31

That was one step too far. Weirdly, that's something I say on the regular. Dick lick motherfucker.

01:15:37

Learn it. in the magazine article he like needled Joel and finally Steinberg finally admitted that he quote

01:15:45

pushed his daughter a little quote with the soft pad you know on your palm he finally kind of gave

01:15:52

in because the whole article they were trying to the the lawyer was trying to make it seem like

01:15:58

Joel was the victim of this like media slander to make had to look innocent and him look guilty And it like just what a piece of shit Yeah In 2003 Steinberg was ordered to pay Lisa biological mother the one who gave her up for adoption 15 million for the quote heinous outrageous crime of murdering Lisa

01:16:20

Wow. I'm a little bit like. Do you deserve that money? No, but still, I like the idea he has to pay.

01:16:28

And then but then a civil suit had a. Was wanted to collect three point six million from Joel for eight years of beatings.

01:16:39

She said she endured and the permanent disfigurement she has suffered, which at that point, I'm a little like.

01:16:46

This child died. You need to walk the fuck away. Yeah. Or am I being insensitive to.

01:16:52

I mean, there's there's a lot there's a lot of ways that we can offend people in this.

01:16:56

But here's this is my stance, because I remember money is like the wanting money is bullshit.

01:17:03

Yeah, because you I understand that she was in an abusive relationship. I also understand that she was a drug addict, which is a lot of people don't have empathy for that.

01:17:14

I do. And I understand that you go into a place that is inexplicable and indefensible a lot of the time.

01:17:22

Yes. You don't ask for money for doing that. You make reparations. You fix your life.

01:17:28

You make your amends. You clear away the wreckage of your past. You don't ask to be paid for the thing you fucked up.

01:17:35

The thing about it is, is like you were an adult in this relationship as mind fucked as you were, as victimized as you were.

01:17:45

You stayed in it. You chose to stay in it until this awful thing happened. If that hadn't happened, you would have stayed in it and the children would have still been abused.

01:17:55

it just so happens that Lisa died, that you got out of it. Right. And there's so many examples, I'm sure listeners, too,

01:18:05

who have figured out a way to get out of abusive relationships and how fucking difficult it is and awful it is, but you fucking do it.

01:18:12

And that's your choice as an adult. Right. So the fact that this woman who had a choice to be in this relationship

01:18:17

And then after a while Then wants money. Didn't have, yeah. The money part is problematic because it's she is a victim in a lot of ways, but she's also a victimizer.

01:18:29

Yeah. And there were two children in that apartment. I remember reading something where they usually kept the little boy under a flipped over crib.

01:18:39

So like a little jail that that's how they kept him. Like a cage. I mean, yeah, it's just so fucked up.

01:18:45

It's like I read I actually when that all happened, I read everything I could read about it because I couldn't believe it was real.

01:18:54

Yeah, when it happened. So I was probably like 12 or 13. I got my hands on anything because it was beyond.

01:19:01

These weren't like people that you normally saw on TV that were the bad guys. These were upscale New Yorkers whose lives had spiraled because of drugs.

01:19:10

But they didn't just spiral like, oh, now we're homeless. Oh, now it's all on us.

01:19:14

We're bad. they they made these children live in hell and they killed these children essentially and i mean

01:19:21

not to fucking defend drug addicts which we've both been so it's not like i'm fucking talking

01:19:27

shit but like not all or not all drug addicts abuse children no that's like something you would

01:19:32

do before you do drugs too it's not like that's right took drugs and became a child abuser but i

01:19:38

do remember reading something hadn't that that article i read it of that was probably an expert

01:19:44

excerpt from Hedda Nisbaum's book talking about what an insane control freak from day one he was

01:19:53

and how awful he was and whatever it, it, you got into it. Like it, it's, you could see it,

01:20:01

you could see where she got led down that path. But yeah, the idea that she's going to get any

01:20:08

Any amount of money. Like the idea that she would even ask for that money I just think is super gross It the asking for it that immediately puts her in an unsympathetic light I mean from a distance Also there was an episode you were probably too young There

01:20:26

a show called The Equalizer when I was growing up. And it was basically, they remade it into a movie

01:20:32

with Denzel. But when I was growing up, it was an old white haired man that was basically like

01:20:40

some kind of ex-CIA or whatever who would get hired when things were really bad and there's no

01:20:46

cops couldn't help and no one could help that's when you call the equalizer you should I know that

01:20:51

you know I know that yeah um the the opening credits for the equalizer alone are worth watching

01:20:56

oh my god I love it but there was an there was an episode of the equalizer after this story came out

01:21:01

that was so fucking upsetting because it was a little girl whose father was this fucking abusive

01:21:09

maniac, but the parents weren't like coke heads. They were like crazy rich. And it was this father

01:21:16

that would like, they'd all had to sit at the table and it was really, really, really upsetting.

01:21:21

And it, and, uh, it theoretically was like, kind of like a reaction of like, it was one of those

01:21:28

ripped from the headlines kind of thing. What it's like day to day in reality. Yeah. And by the end,

01:21:33

I think this little girl that the equalizer was trying to help, I'm talking about this,

01:21:37

like it's real. But anyway, it was just that kind of thing that was very, it pervaded the culture.

01:21:41

That story, people went insane about that story. I totally remember it. It's so troubling. And I think I couldn't find it, but I want to see the laws that were changed

01:21:55

because of this, because I remember reading at some point that there was like a, you must,

01:22:01

if you suspect abuse, especially for the teachers, I think, you have to report it.

01:22:06

Yeah. Like there became there. There's some kind of law came about because of that. But I couldn't find anything.

01:22:11

Well, the idea that the doctors were saying her body was a map of pain. Yeah. And then the teachers.

01:22:16

The teachers were like, yeah, we saw that. They didn't even say like we never saw signs. They saw it.

01:22:22

Also, the idea that abusing a two year old is so fucking disgusting. like when Hedda found that the sexual abuse like you think about that of like who were those

01:22:37

fucking people what was wrong with her that she didn't this was her mother that she didn't

01:22:43

immediately think to herself my child is the important part yes yeah like you take her to

01:22:50

one hospital to get treatment for any of these things and it's an investigation is going to start

01:22:55

Like, you know, he left for dinner and was gone for hours and you were with her for 10 hours and never a moment crossed your mind to go go across the hall to your neighbors and say, I need to go call.

01:23:09

You don't have to call 911 yourself, but like. But I think there was stories about the fact that she never left that apartment.

01:23:15

Right. Like she did not leave it. Right. And she didn't wear normal clothes. I think it was always pajamas.

01:23:20

Right. I mean, yeah. I, you reminded me of this crime. I absolutely have to read a book on it now because I remember like I have everything is,

01:23:31

you know, well, this guy from the New York Magazine article says that the art that the

01:23:36

book by, um, oh, Joyce Johnson called what Lisa knew was really good. Okay. So maybe we should both read that.

01:23:42

Yes. Let's do that. Okay. Did you finish the Ted Bundy book yet? I'm like, I think I've like three chapters left.

01:23:48

Did you, I recently was reading, there was a Reddit AMA that someone posted on the Facebook

01:23:52

page, an AMA of the psychologist in the prison who, um, who was the first psychologist to like

01:23:59

discuss, talk with Ted Bundy. Ted Bundy called him the first time he escaped off a payphone. I was

01:24:04

like, Hey, like, and so he was like an ask me anything. It wasn't like super in depth and great,

01:24:10

but it was cool. I'll send it to you. Was it, it's not the one that got recorded, is it?

01:24:14

Cause there's a video of him talking to a guy. No, yeah. It got recorded, but he didn't post

01:24:19

Audio not video Yeah Okay There a video of Ted Bundy being interviewed that I can watch Oh my God I tried to watch it and I don want to watch him sit calmly and discuss himself like he a star That pisses me off What does he talk about

01:24:35

Um, he, I think he's being interviewed by a cop. Oh my God. But I, but I'm not sure. I can't wait

01:24:42

till we do that. I've never, I've never watched it. We should do like a special, like a, and we

01:24:46

both talk about Ted Bundy somehow. Let's do that. We can like split it up into parts.

01:24:51

but that's good this like weird playboy photo of him where he's like half naked have you seen this like naked on a bear rug kind of a thing oh yeah posing what the

01:24:59

fuck yeah he's staying sexy as fuck he ted bundy is ridiculous this the way that story is written

01:25:09

and the fact that ann rule as a writer and as a crime person herself was there at that it's the

01:25:17

craziest coincident or, you know, like happenstance or whatever, fate, whatever you want to call

01:25:22

it. It's amazing. And it's such a good book. It's so readable. Yeah. Well, this was a fucking party of.

01:25:30

Party of none. None. This was a sad child murder episode. Yeah. Sorry. Elvis. Guys.

01:25:45

Listen. Oh, go to. We're on Twitter. We're on Instagram. We're on Facebook. We have emails.

01:25:52

We need to do another mini and read a bunch of hometown murders. Stuff that doesn't make me cry.

01:26:01

I need to go to therapy more than I already do. There's just so many. It just keeps coming.

01:26:06

That's the thing is we really dug ourselves a real hole by getting into this topic because it's all we do.

01:26:14

I know. It's all we talk about. I'm fine talking. like it really makes me feel better that I have a point in reading about all

01:26:19

these murders instead of just doing it like I did before. Yeah, that's very true.

01:26:22

Cause I'm going to read it either way. Right. But there are some that I, that, you know,

01:26:27

just affect you more, like probably for a lot of people, child murders. Yeah. Um,

01:26:33

but, Oh, uh, thank you for, we love you guys and we appreciate you listening and you should tell a

01:26:38

friend about this. Yeah. Maybe if, if nothing else, just stay sexy and don't get murdered.

01:26:45

Okay. Elvis, want a cookie? New home, same family. Your BET favorites are now on Paramount+.

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My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgi

26 - Twenty Six Six Six

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