00:00:00
This is exactly right. Isn't some far off concept? It's already here. Next starts now.
00:00:33
Hyundai, an official partner of FIFA. Goodbye. When a charming neurosurgeon rode into Frontier Town
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selling a persona of confidence and care, patients trusted him. He wore cowboy boots in the operating room
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and became sought after by patients. He promised to heal them. Instead, he left a trail of broken bodies.
00:00:51
This is a story of greed, betrayal, and a fight for justice. Listen to Dr. Death the Cowboy wherever you get your podcasts
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or binge the entire series right now only with Audible. Goodbye. Where does summer take you?
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00:01:35
Is that beeping? Should I go tell the beeping to stop? You don't hear that? There's no beeping, Georgia.
00:01:48
And we've started. And breakdown. And Georgia hears beeping. Do you hear that sound of a baby crying?
00:01:56
This is not an ad. for a new beeper. For a new brain. We're bringing back beepers.
00:02:03
Beepers. Are you a doctor or a drug dealer? Or do you play one on TV? Then you need a beeper.
00:02:09
Or are you having an affair and you need a way for your affair person to contact you?
00:02:14
What was the affair? What was the thing of like some kind of a 411 but for hookups?
00:02:19
No. Yeah. It was like... I guess I didn't hook up when I had a beeper. Oh, I did all the time.
00:02:26
No. When I was an emergency room intern? No, never. Of course not. You're serious.
00:02:34
I'm super blackout drunk in a bar and then I hold up my beeper. Guys, I've got to go.
00:02:38
My sugar daddy's calling me. One of my... Hey, welcome to my favorite murder. Hi, welcome to my favorite murder.
00:02:44
That's Georgia Hardstark. That's Karen Kilgara. We're here to read to you and tell to you true crime stories from all around the nation and world.
00:02:54
And more. And then some. And then more. And then after that, half a teaspoon more.
00:03:00
It's the morning. We've never recorded in the morning. This is so weird. I had to stay at work late last night.
00:03:07
Everybody got to adjust to my needs. So we were supposed to record last night. I called and said, I'm still at work.
00:03:14
Then Georgia, you've actually been into this idea for a while. I feel like you've been very morning positive about, right?
00:03:21
It just feels fun and fresh and like different. You know what I mean? like recording in a different place. It feels like a field trip without going anywhere.
00:03:29
Yes. School is new again for us. Yeah. And now I can really learn. And it lets me drink
00:03:34
whiskey in the morning. Finally. Because I can't do this podcast without whiskey.
00:03:39
That's not true. That's not true. But let me just, I just need to put this out here.
00:03:43
If you or any of your friends are drinking whiskey in the morning, that was the end stage for me right before I was hospitalized. I know you're joking.
00:03:52
i meant that i was legitimately curious 11 30 you're in the clear yeah i always am like
00:04:02
no if it's not on a weekend and it's not brunch although this is like well what's weird is that
00:04:08
this is going to come out later today so everyone listening on thursday this is this morning are
00:04:14
you fucking oh yeah same day yeah same first time same day this is the freshest recording
00:04:19
It's not your fault. I was out of town on Tuesday and Monday, so we couldn't record like we usually do.
00:04:25
Oh, thank you. You're welcome. Georgia, that means a lot to me that you're in the same place.
00:04:28
I wouldn't put it on you at all. Yeah. That's very nice of you to mention. I didn't even realize that.
00:04:37
Georgia, how was that trip, by the way? Tell the people what you were doing. I fucking had this crazy experience.
00:04:44
Oxygen. They were going to have us. said it was just me available. And I was like, fuck yeah.
00:04:52
Oxygen is turning into a true crime network. This is not a plug. They didn't pay me to do
00:04:56
this or anything like that. She's just trying to tell her story. I really had an incredible time.
00:05:00
So they have this special called The Jury Speaks. The Jury. Thank you. You're welcome. I'm your stage mother.
00:05:07
I'm really early and I've only had bullet coffee. You've only had two shots of whiskey. Yeah.
00:05:13
So far. So The Jury Speaks. And so I did this panel for press where I interviewed four of the jury members who were on these like high profile cases where they
00:05:22
were really fucking controversial and like kind of ruined these jurors lives for a while because
00:05:28
instead of blaming the justice system that let, you know, George Zimmerman go, they blamed the
00:05:34
juries for voting the way that they were told to vote, which is if you have reasonable doubt.
00:05:39
And then it asked the question, like, with everything you know now, would you vote differently?
00:05:43
And these people were so, they were just normal people who were very affected by these trials,
00:05:50
by what happened to them afterwards. How could you not be? This one woman who was on the George Zimmerman trial was just such a she just was so emotionally raw and wonderful And I really really she really touched me It sounds like it going to be a good show I would love to watch that
00:06:05
I watched it. It's, I, you know, you're like, I'm so sick of the OJ Simpson trial.
00:06:10
I've seen every fucking thing about it. Well, this is from the jury's perspective.
00:06:13
It's all interview. Which you've never seen anything of. And they explain why they voted the way they voted, which everyone's like, you fucking fuck you.
00:06:21
You know, it's the Michael Jackson case. It's really cool. I feel like people were fuck you in the 90s.
00:06:26
And now, especially because of those two things that came out recently. Yeah. Everyone's like, oh, yeah, I get it.
00:06:32
I'm starting to get it as like a white American. I'm starting to understand what all the things I didn't know.
00:06:38
Yeah. And never opened my eyes to before were about. Yeah. And how unfair it is.
00:06:44
Yeah. Yeah. It was really, really interesting. So that's what I was. That's great.
00:06:48
And it was fun. I bet. Yeah. Did you get your hair did? I got my nails and toes did.
00:06:52
But like, what about, were you in that makeup chair? I'm saying that's my favorite part of anything.
00:06:57
No, for this, it wasn't, it wasn't recorded, unfortunately, because I, the first time in
00:07:02
my life, um, headed the panel. Oh, it was like a live panel. It was a panel for press.
00:07:09
And so there was like 50, 60 people in the room that were press. And I was like, so when you got sequestered and asking, and then the person who made the
00:07:18
show is Nancy Glass, who remember was the Inside Edition blonde woman. Nancy Glass.
00:07:26
Yeah. And she's a fucking badass. And she was on the panel and she's just been, she's won Emmys.
00:07:30
She's just an incredible broadcaster. So it's so weird to be sitting there interviewing her.
00:07:34
Wow. And I'm like, you should be. She was incredible. And so she made it. It's just, it's great.
00:07:40
That's so cool. Yeah. I had a really good time. Does that mean she picked you to be the person?
00:07:45
I don't know. I don't think so. But she pretended to know who I am. I was honored. I took a photo with her. It was just really exciting. Yeah. She's just this long
00:07:53
time true crime investigative journalism, journalist host. And I was just, I was honored
00:08:00
to be there. Awesome. Thank you. First class. First class on the way there. Oh, shit. On my dime.
00:08:07
I didn't. They didn't. Yeah. How about you? Who, me? Oh, I'm just sitting in a office for 11 hours a
00:08:16
day talking about what fictional characters may or may not do in their lives and why and if it
00:08:22
could be symbolic or any meaningful in any way to other people. And it's just conversation after
00:08:28
conversation. And by the time I leave, I don't want to speak and look at anybody else. I've eaten
00:08:34
so much Trader Joe's snack food. Yeah, I have it really rough. But first class? First class all the way, baby.
00:08:45
The one thing I did want to mention, and we've gotten tons of tweets about, is the fact that they ID'd an unknown victim of John Wayne Gacy's.
00:08:55
Totally. Cook County Sheriff just made this announcement, and of course we got 1,000 tweets about it, which I love.
00:09:02
The funniest thing is now all the tweets are, did you already get this? Yeah, or I know you already saw this, but just in case.
00:09:08
Which is sweet. Thank you, Mommy. Yeah. So just really quick, if you haven't read any of the articles, which you probably have.
00:09:16
And they came out today, so I'm glad we're recording today. Yeah. So they said, so there's eight unidentified victims.
00:09:23
And at the time when they found these bodies, it was 1976. No, sorry. It was 1978.
00:09:31
That they found the bodies. I believe, right? I don't have the year. 78 or 79. Yeah.
00:09:35
But so eight were unidentified and they couldn't do anything about it because they didn't.
00:09:41
They, of course, obviously didn't have the forensics that we have today. And they kept jaw bones.
00:09:47
I know. But they so that if people came forward with dental records. So creepy. Yeah.
00:09:52
So back then, like it was dental wasn't a thing that it is today, which is like you take your kids immediately.
00:09:58
So not everyone had dental records back then. That's exactly right. And that's so this identified victim, Jimmy Hawkinson, he was 16 years old when he was murdered by John Wayne Gacy.
00:10:08
Oh, baby. And his mother actually went to Chicago in 1979 to try to find out if her missing son was one of the victims.
00:10:16
But because she didn't have dental records, they couldn't tell her anything. They had no way of knowing anything.
00:10:21
But they have continued to test these, these, the, you know, evidence. Yeah, the remains that they have.
00:10:31
And the cool thing is, so it's 39 years later and Hawkinson's nephew sees that they're still testing remains.
00:10:38
So he encourages his, I believe it was his aunt and his father to go give the DNA so they could test it.
00:10:48
And now he's a fucking murderino. He's just like, I'm going to track my uncle down.
00:10:53
Wouldn't you be so fascinated if you had a missing uncle who was suspected to have been at 16?
00:10:58
Yeah, you and I would be. I think most people listening would be like, I'm going to track this down.
00:11:03
But some people would be like, this is too hard for my family. They don't want to talk about it.
00:11:07
Yeah. And it's also when it's just a missing child. That's just like, that's, I mean, it's so sad.
00:11:14
They just no answer. You almost don't know. Do you want an answer? Because then it's like, it's, it's a period on the sentence that like, maybe he'll walk
00:11:23
through the door someday, or maybe, you know, not really wanting to know that it's over
00:11:28
and that this monster John Wayne Gacy is the reason. And his mom let him move to Chicago to start a new life.
00:11:37
And then they said that he called her on August 5th. I just read it this morning.
00:11:42
When he got there. When he got there. And I think maybe the same day he got captured, right?
00:11:47
Well, all I read was that was the last she ever heard of him. So it was very soon after.
00:11:52
I love the way that he really underlined the fact that his family loved him His family had been searching for him This was not you know it that thing they always do uh not always do but sometimes do the story with victims which is the hitch
00:12:06
you know, the, the hitchhiker who didn't care about their life, the runaway who,
00:12:10
it doesn't matter what happened to them anyway, the sex worker who, I mean, who really cares is
00:12:15
just another victim or it's like, he really was underlining. This is a family who missed their
00:12:19
child, their 16 year old boy for 39 years. I hope I didn't sound like when I said that they didn't
00:12:26
want to know that. I don't know if that's true or not, but no, you're just saying that's a
00:12:31
possibility for some people probably then the grief, then you have to like, then that's a whole
00:12:36
new grieving process. And you've learned how to compartmentalize this. Anyways, I don't know. I've
00:12:39
never, I've never lost someone like that. So yeah, I'm just speculating. Yeah. That's how this show
00:12:45
is this podcast is speculation. It's speculation. I like to lie out loud. What was the quote or the saying you called it, or someone called it?
00:12:57
The vague postulating? That's vague postulating. Something like serious vague postulating.
00:13:01
That's what I'm all about. We're just talking about it. Sincere vague postulating.
00:13:05
Something. Well, that's fucked up, and I'm glad. And then the creepiest part to me was that they could tell when it happened based on
00:13:14
this like stacking of the bodies. Oh, right. Like what number victim he was. Yeah. Yeah. I'm sorry.
00:13:20
Can you hold on one second? There's somebody they're trying to break in or clean, probably
00:13:24
clean, but why would they, or the kittens doing something, which I don't think she is.
00:13:32
Sounds like cleaning. I don't think they do that ever. No. Look at that fucking disgusting.
00:13:39
Why would you, how do you get up there? Maybe, maybe there's something going up the side of the building.
00:13:45
All right. Well, keep this, keep this in because someone's trying to break into my fucking house right now.
00:13:49
I don't see anything. Okay. They left. They gave up. And then you hear a smash. It turns out it was a hummingbird.
00:13:55
Crashed into the window. That hummingbird's trying to kill me. That's what my brain goes to immediately.
00:14:01
Yeah. So they stack the bodies and that's, he stacked them by like when he got them, you just like
00:14:06
buried them on top of each other. So they can be like, he died at this time or this year because we know the body underneath him went away, like disappeared on this day.
00:14:16
And the one on top of him disappeared on this day. So, yeah, they can get that creepy.
00:14:20
But it's the visual of that makes me so sad for these kids. The visual of that is what like sparked my what the hell is going on in this actual world.
00:14:32
That's exactly it. Yeah. With the bearing of the bodies. It was a diagram. drawing a diagram of where the bodies were buried in the house. And to me, to my child's mind,
00:14:42
I thought he'd buried them in the wall. It didn't make sense to me that it was underneath.
00:14:46
So I was just like, cause I knew my parents were telling me stuff. Cause my parents would always
00:14:50
be like, we'll tell you later. We'll tell you when you're older, which nothing makes you want to know
00:14:54
more. I mean, then they tell you that for real. And so that was one of the ones anyway, it's,
00:14:59
it makes me happy that they're still working the way they are for this, that there's something
00:15:06
about that that's very heartening to me. Can we go back to, you never gave me an answer,
00:15:14
what time drinking whiskey means you're about to Karen out and have to go to the hospital.
00:15:21
Let's not call it Karen. I'm sorry. Steven, take that out. No, you don't. You know what it is? It's not time of day. It's that you think you need it.
00:15:30
Why? And you think it's okay? When it's not a choice because it moves to a point where it's not a choice anymore, especially when you're at that point.
00:15:39
I was only drinking whiskey only. So my friends would we'd meet at a bar. People would get a round of beers.
00:15:45
I would have a shot of Jameson's. I would be done before everybody. Of course, mine was smaller.
00:15:51
And then I would keep on having shots of whiskey until I was trying to kick the bouncer in the shins for no reason.
00:15:58
Party central. Party, Karen. Party times. Anyways. All right. So 11 o'clock. Right around 1115.
00:16:08
If at that point, I remember taking a bottle of Jameson's off the top of my refrigerator.
00:16:14
The second I woke up in the morning, like it was coffee. And as I drank it, like just took a swig of it thinking this is very bad.
00:16:21
Oh, you knew then. Yeah. But you were like, well, I'll stop soon. I'll stop doing this.
00:16:25
But today is not the day. No, I know. You know what it was? I knew it was bad and I knew I should stop.
00:16:30
But I also knew I could not stop. I knew that. How scary. It was horrible. I'm sorry.
00:16:36
Thank you. Congratulations, because you fucking did it. And you did it well. I did too.
00:16:41
I'm so impressed that you did that. Thank you. As someone who drinks. I mean, look, I highly recommend seizures.
00:16:49
They're very, they are upsetting. They're mysterious. I tried one at like 12. I gave it a shot at 12.
00:16:55
It wasn't for me. I mean, they're not for everybody. I really had a seizure at 12.
00:16:59
For what? I don't know. So my brother, yeah, I think so. My brother and I both had one seizure like around that age and then never again.
00:17:07
It might have been your brain growth spurt because kids have them when they're seven.
00:17:13
They have them when they're babies if they have fevers. Sometimes. Yeah. Sometimes when you're seven, sometimes when you're 14.
00:17:19
Every seven years when your brain grows. And like a hormone release. And I had been working like playing soccer all day, probably was dehydrated.
00:17:26
And I had it in my, this isn't interesting. I had it in my sleep, which isn't supposed to actually be a seizure.
00:17:31
No, no, that's when I have all mine. That's right. They are seizures. Did I tell you I was sharing, this is how young I was sharing a bunk bed with my sister.
00:17:38
I started shaking. Thank God we shared a room at the time. She ran into my mom's room and said, we were really into The Simpsons at the time.
00:17:44
And she said, Mom, George is having a cow. I was probably younger. I was probably like 10.
00:17:51
Your mom's like, what the fuck? Yeah. Oh, Jesus. And I missed my whole ride in the ambulance I so bummed about that Oh because you were out Yeah It not that great It kind of weird Okay It not like fun Like you think It not as fun as you think
00:18:06
Stephen Ray Morris keeps giving us presents. Oh, no. We get him nothing. You just pulled that out of the envelope a little bit, and I see VHS.
00:18:16
You see VHS. This must have cost. Stephen, send us an invoice. Here you go. It's your story.
00:18:24
Here you go. Read it to everyone. Echoes in the dark. Joseph Wambaugh's Echoes in the Darkness, everybody.
00:18:30
This is the story. A fucking video cassette he tracked down. It's Peter Coyote, Robert Loggia, Stockard Channing, telling the story of William Bradfield,
00:18:40
Patches, we called him, Dr. J. Smith. Principal, what was his name? I don't remember.
00:18:49
The principal? and then patches. Missing children with the fucking little statue in the forest.
00:18:56
Steven. Oh, guys. A plus. It's such a cool VHS. It's such a VHS that I remember from my childhood.
00:19:04
I mean, it's in perfect condition. Somebody really held on to that type. Somebody really.
00:19:08
Yeah. Somebody dusted their VHS shelf every day. What makes me sad is like what happened to them that we were able to get this
00:19:15
if they saved it that long. either they died and their parents or their siblings were like sell it on ebay sell all of
00:19:21
dad's vhs's oh can i go fucking dark all the time can i ever go positive now let's do the therapy
00:19:28
now there are four other choices that can be happening here holding our holding our hand up
00:19:32
with five fingers every time you think of something that's upsetting that you think is the truth
00:19:37
the somebody's something's working on the side of your house okay that sounded like a weird fart
00:19:44
didn't it no it sounded like a a noisemaker when you use yeah okay so you hold up okay everyone
00:19:53
this is the rule of six rule of five okay no the rule of six sorry okay so number one is the
00:19:58
negative thought so you're like someone died and that's why we have the someone died it's the only
00:20:02
reason we have a vh yeah which i kind of enjoy postulating of course well worst case you always
00:20:07
explore the worst case so then the five is like maybe they had a wonderful life with a wonderful
00:20:12
family. Maybe they're not actually dead. And maybe they were happy to let this move on to
00:20:17
someone else. Steven, tell us the background of you buying this. Did someone send it to you?
00:20:22
Oh, no, I just found it on eBay. But the person sent a letter. Oh, my God. Handwritten.
00:20:28
So they're still alive. And it says, Dear customer, please know I upgraded in bold. At my cost,
00:20:34
your VHS ordered a first class mail because I consider you a first class customer.
00:20:39
Congratulations. Media mail I consider too slow. I also mailed it in a padded mailer with free delivery confirmation.
00:20:46
I hope you have earned. I hope I have earned your five star feedback you have. And yes, if not, please message me on how to improve.
00:20:52
Thanking you, Karen, with an I. Yes. Oh, my God, Karen. Karen. Great job, Karen.
00:20:58
Speaking of great job, and this isn't a present that's not from me. And then I want to read the letter because it is from Murderino.
00:21:06
The letter made me cry. Nice. But it's really self-serving because it's because of something I said on the podcast.
00:21:12
Of course, sure. Is that okay? I feel like this is podcast. Okay. So, da-da-da-da, Karen Dorja Stevens, sisters and I are a huge fan, sending you a thing that I never expected to,
00:21:23
but I wanted to share with you a very personal way in which your approach to the podcast inspired and motivated me.
00:21:28
Can I just say one thing? What? If you're going to read a letter that's like slightly self-congratulatory, you can't skip through the beginning of their part.
00:21:35
But it's long. Da-da-da. You love me. No. Okay. Well, I'll read it. No, no, no, no.
00:21:41
Okay. Well, I was going to read the rest. So it does look long, actually. In an early episode, Georgia was making a T-shirt corner update.
00:21:49
Karen mentioned how impressed she was. See, this is so dick. By Georgia's tenacity and follow through and actually making the shirts a reality.
00:21:57
And because remember, I was like, you don't have to be perfect. Just fucking do things.
00:22:00
Yes. Which is my motto. That's right. Georgia went to express how she just doesn't let the fear of messing up or not being perfect
00:22:07
hold her back. She continued to explain the theory that people who make A-quality work often don't even start, much less finish making things because they're so hung up on perfection and fear of failing.
00:22:16
It was a lightbulb moment. This described me. I went to school for design, currently work in the design industry, yet have been terrified of creating personal passion projects for fear that they wouldn't turn out, quote, perfect.
00:22:26
Gumption and willingness to start T-shirts on this podcast, despite things not always being perfect, no shit, was so encouraging to me.
00:22:33
with the mindset of fuck perfection, I successfully created a little bit of jewelry
00:22:38
for you guys and all the other murderinos out there who want one. Inside the tiny envelopes, I'm passing them to you
00:22:44
and Steven, you get one too, even though it's weird. You will find a solid 14 karat gold murderino script
00:22:52
necklaces. My first foray into making jewelry. I drew the script, figured out how to 3D print said script
00:22:58
from a mold, found a casting place, made prototypes, then lovingly put each one together by hand. They are all designed and made in New York City. You guys
00:23:06
get the first three because you inspired the whole thing. And I want to say thank you.
00:23:09
I'm really proud I made them. Thank you all for pursuing what you love and for being authentic
00:23:14
and hilarious to you. My sisters and I wish you all the best happiness and success.
00:23:18
Stephanie of The Sisters Gamble. The Sisters Gamble. You can get it. It's Etsy. The Sisters Gamble. G-A-M-B-L-E. P.S. Stephen, I don't know if you're into necklaces, but I
00:23:28
know you could rock it alongside the stash. Hell yeah. Stephen, you will look so
00:23:34
1975. Oh, because it's gold. I mean, I do have chest hair. You have a lot of chest
00:23:38
hair. Live, love, laugh. Listen, shave your chest hair into a mustache. Never mind. Do it.
00:23:44
Aren't those beautiful? That's really lovely. And that makes me really happy because that's so
00:23:48
true. Just fucking do what you want to do. You'll improve later. It made me really
00:23:54
tear up and proud of us. Not just because I, at last, we, we, uh. we said fuck it.
00:24:01
Yeah. Did it. It's funny. Those ideas that seem kind of simple for me, they're like just Ted talks that I've watched.
00:24:07
It's like, if you go into the Brene Brown vulnerability, Ted talk, watch that. And then there's going to be a bunch of other ones that are like perfection,
00:24:14
ruining shit, ruining creativity, this, that, and the other thing you can like, there's a whole philosophy of life that you can discover.
00:24:22
Oh, I love that. Yeah. Well, that made me, so thank you, Stephanie. Thanks. Um, we got to cut.
00:24:28
Let's see. My aunt actually turned Richard Speck into the police. Maybe we can save these for hometowns.
00:24:34
I work with Trisha Mele. Oh, wait. That person's aunt turned Richard Speck into the police.
00:24:40
I wonder if it's the girl that went to high school with him that saw him in the town and country center.
00:24:46
That weird fucking mall in Sacramento. Richard Speck was the one who killed all the nurses in the...
00:24:51
Oh, shit. Sorry. I was thinking Richard Chase. Oh, is that right? Oh, Richard Chase was the creepy Sacramento dude.
00:24:56
Chase was the Sacramento vampire, and that's Richard Speck. Yeah. This is Georgia, Karen, Stephen, Mimi, and Elvis,
00:25:03
but we should also give a shout-out to the person who made you that cross-stitch of the dogs.
00:25:10
Oh, that's right. And I want to say right now that Elvis is at the doctor's because we have a new kitten named Dottie, and she got Elvis sick,
00:25:20
and I love this new kitten very much, but if she kills Elvis, I'm going to fucking lose my eye.
00:25:23
How old is Elvis, Georgia? He's about to be 13. He's going to be okay. Okay. I hope my subject line grabbed your attention.
00:25:33
You guys are the best and make my hour-long Chicago commute so much more bearable.
00:25:36
I've gotten countless friends and family members hooked into listening by telling them the Mary Vincent and Sarah Brady stories.
00:25:41
But anyway, on to my aunt's story. My aunt is Kathy O'Connor, and she was a nurse at Cook County Hospital in 1966.
00:25:48
She always talked about this case when I was younger, but I never realized how much of a connection she actually had.
00:25:53
I started reading the book, The Crime of the Century, which is about the Richard Specht murders.
00:25:57
And he killed a bunch of nurses. And he went into the nurses' dorm. And one woman survived by hiding.
00:26:05
And in the chapter where they talk about him trying to kill himself and then getting admitted to the hospital, I see my aunt's name.
00:26:11
Once I saw her name, I immediately went to talk to her. And she told me the real scoop.
00:26:15
She was the nurse that treated him when he came to the ER that night. In every report you're going to see, it says that Leroy Smith was the one who saw his tattoo and alerted the police.
00:26:23
But after talking with my aunt this week, it was actually her that notified that noticed the tattoo on his wrist from a picture in the newspaper.
00:26:30
She then told Leroy and he alerted the police. Fuck yeah, bitch. Yep. And since this was 1966 and my aunt is a woman, she didn't get any of the credit.
00:26:40
Down with the patriarchy. Am I right? Now you guys know the real story. All in all, it's fine because Speck was captured and was sentenced to life in prison, but it's still a pretty crazy story and connection.
00:26:51
Thank you guys for this amazing podcast. It's honestly made me more just I'm just like congratulating myself this whole time.
00:26:58
It's honestly made me more aware as a person when I'm out alone. Next time you guys are in Chicago, hit me up and we can do a ghost tour or you can talk to my badass aunt.
00:27:04
Much love. Say sexy. Don't get murdered. Mary Kay. Everyone in Chicago wants to give us a ghost tour.
00:27:08
I love it. It must be a thing. Well, because they have H.H. Holmes. They have so many mobs, all that alcohol and stuff.
00:27:15
Okay, well, listen, we're going to read some others that we got. That's what the hometown murder episodes, or the minisodes, basically, are, for those of you who don't listen.
00:27:24
So, clearly, you are missing. Yeah, we have so much catch-up email, but I feel like we don't have time.
00:27:29
Yeah, because we work. We also, I think maybe we should do it next week, too. We have to talk about the R. Kelly sex cult.
00:27:38
Obstructively. It's crazy, because I read the BuzzFeed R. Colt this morning. There's so much detail.
00:27:45
Like, it'll take us. Let's talk about it next week. Okay. I have like a list of things I've been meaning to talk about.
00:27:50
But that one is especially interesting because what really freaked me out is R. Kelly is touring.
00:27:58
He is, even though he was, so he was acquitted for 14 counts of child porn. He married as Leah when she was 14 and he was like 20 something, 30 something.
00:28:09
And then there was a song called Age is Just a Number. Yeah. Which is like, no, that's not true.
00:28:15
But also when you start reading these accounts and the way he's keeping and controlling these women, it's unbelievable.
00:28:24
And he's just and he's like on Fallon and he's like, you know, being in someone's funny video or whatever.
00:28:29
But I think it's OK with these people. Chris Brown, I want to I know it's dated, but I want to call that motherfucker out.
00:28:35
Why does he still have a career after beating the shit out of Rihanna? Rihanna. It's because when you make people money, the people who get paid because of being making that money figure out a way to make it OK.
00:28:46
Yeah. And that's what so much of show business is. And and because people haven't had a voice before and what a lot of like there was a reporter at a really tragic quote that was like,
00:28:56
this story proves that young black women do not matter to people in this country, which is really true.
00:29:02
And it's a thing that, you know, we come up against all the time when you're in talking about true crime.
00:29:07
this issue of of the the race of the victim and how that story gets treated is a huge problem
00:29:14
yeah and we're learning as we go but it is it's nothing that we you know like we're just doing
00:29:21
our best right but it is it's a it's a problem on this level it's a problem obviously in the
00:29:26
regular media it's how we the story gets presented where you go well this thing happened but it's
00:29:31
okay and everyone goes great it's okay yeah you don't you don't question your immediate thinking
00:29:36
your immediate snap judgment, which I think is what we need to start paying attention to.
00:29:41
Like, what's my snap judgment? And then questioning that. Yes. Because that's my internal bias.
00:29:45
Yeah. That's why you're not ignorant, is you think for yourself. And try to keep on thinking.
00:29:52
Yeah. And not shut down, not fight. Not fucking absorb or what is it called Take on whatever is being fucking screamed at you Yeah Just like swallow whatever the story on CNN is or whatever but like actually try to whatever
00:30:05
Anyways, we're all doing our best. Should we get to the murder? Yeah, I think we should.
00:30:10
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I swear to God, the first time I saw it, it made me laugh. Did you make it, Stephen?
00:33:39
No. Stephen's like, I'm busy with so much of your other bullshit that you guys make me do.
00:33:44
And I did use it to look up. Oh, my God. Nice. Well, we're hiring them instead of you now.
00:33:50
Oh, that's cruel. Who is it? Me? Yeah, it's you. Okay. I go first. so as we all know when I'm working and I'm in the mix and in the mix and I have uh don't have a ton
00:34:03
of time to do my homework what do I do I like to retell you my favorite I survived episode that's
00:34:09
great okay good thank god no can we stop for a minute Karen I'm gonna need you go outside um
00:34:17
take notes uh here's what's amazing to me so this one I remembered and we've actually talked about
00:34:24
it very lightly before. Um, but it's one of my favorites. And when I went to rewatch it,
00:34:32
so I could just base, I'm all the information is from this, uh, this woman who's it's her story.
00:34:37
I'm taking it directly from the, I survived episode. This is basically like, if you're driving,
00:34:41
I'm telling you and I survived so you don't have to watch it. Cause that's exactly what I'm,
00:34:46
what everything I'm talking about. I got from the show. I tried to watch it actually recently
00:34:49
and it's hard yeah it's hard and it's fucked up yeah yeah so so i haven't watched a lot of these
00:34:57
what i love about it is it it it electrifies me with people sitting there telling this thing that
00:35:03
we only talk talk about third fifth hand yeah you know so far away so distant because we don't have
00:35:10
the explanation of the victim because they're dead in most cases yeah and these are people
00:35:16
who got through it and turned around and were like, this happened to me. It's not my fault.
00:35:21
I got through it. I'm not, you know, I'm like, here's what I did after. And it's amazing. And
00:35:27
they're 80% women. It's, and the women who are on it, I would say 80% were raped in some way and
00:35:34
left for dead in some way. And then there's just some man who was like, well, I took my tractor
00:35:39
out. Well, there was one real, the one I watched, the only episode I watched, there was a guy who
00:35:43
was in Haiti after. Yes. And there was an earthquake and he was trapped in the hotel elevator that fell upon him for
00:35:53
like 80 something hours Yeah And it was incredible Yeah But he was there to fucking help people So it not like he was like I hiked into the forest No And look their survival stories are important but it it interesting to watch If you interested watch it because
00:36:09
you'll see the difference of somebody that's like, he held a knife to my throat. It's like,
00:36:14
they should make two shows. And one of them is these stories of getting lost and, you know,
00:36:19
be on your boat or whatever, and earthquakes and the other should be, it's like kind of
00:36:23
paying tribute to women and men who have been attacked. Right. Yeah. Okay. Well, I mean, they can do what they want.
00:36:31
Yeah. As long as they keep doing it. So I have these things to rely upon. Not to talk down.
00:36:37
Yeah. Look, hey, listen. Okay. So this is what's amazing about this is it's season two, episode 10 of I Survived.
00:36:46
it's the same episode as our friend Sarah Brady who was pregnant, nine months pregnant
00:36:52
who got attacked by the fake pregnant girls this is like the best episode you've ever seen
00:36:56
the best episode, my favorite my favorite girl, well this woman is on the same episode as her, that's insane
00:37:02
I was thrilled, it was like a star sighting for me so this is this is Ellen Halbert's
00:37:10
story this takes place outside of Austin, Texas in an affluent area, I guess in the hills in 1986, September of 1986.
00:37:22
So Ellen Halbert is in her 40s. She's a wife and mother. She's having a run of the mill morning.
00:37:29
She's reading the paper. She's drinking her coffee in peace and quiet. Her husband is out for the day golfing and her son is at school all day.
00:37:38
um so you know she eventually decides to go upstairs and take a shower to get ready for her
00:37:45
day uh she goes she takes a shower and when she gets out of the shower she grabs a towel
00:37:52
wraps it around her she's walking over to the closet to get a robe when she notices something
00:37:59
in the corner oh no no no and what's in the corner is a five foot eleven man standing
00:38:06
holding that she says the largest knife she's ever seen up above his head dressed like a ninja
00:38:14
can you fucking like you'd be like this my brain isn't working she said she laughed out loud
00:38:22
because she couldn't figure out she said she thought it was a joke couldn't figure out what
00:38:27
was happening. I have chills right now. Yes. It's like seeing a ghost. Yes. But like, and also it's
00:38:37
that thing where, you know, sometimes I get, I have like those weird floaters in my eyes where
00:38:41
everyone's like, is that a cat? Like I'm like, you're having a seizure, Karen, cat seizure,
00:38:49
which is like some weird thing passes in your eyeliner. Yeah, definitely. You don't turn your
00:38:53
ahead and expect to see a huge cat standing there or what i mean but that's full body yeah you expect
00:39:00
to see like oh weird i might have she didn't expect anything she didn't even see anything
00:39:04
out of the corner eyes she's just getting out of the shower regular day okay okay horrifying
00:39:09
everyone is gasping in their cars right now also his in this ninja outfit if you're not familiar
00:39:16
Every part of his body was covered. It was black pants, black shirt, head wrap so that only his eyes are exposed.
00:39:27
It's like a karate uniform plus a head. It's karate plus. Right. He's also wearing gloves.
00:39:34
So it's just eyes and a knife, basically, in the corner of her bathroom. Okay. he screams get on the floor
00:39:43
and comes at her and they start to as she says in the episode tussle which is the cutest
00:39:50
and also reminds me of the movie Out of Sight with J-Lo and George Clooney that scene in the bathroom
00:39:57
those guys anyhow so he pushes her into the bedroom and he backhands her and knocks her onto the ground
00:40:08
she gets up he does it again uh she gets up again and sits on the edge of the bed and because she's she says
00:40:15
she's basically naked except for this towel she pulls her knees up uh to her chest to like try to
00:40:22
get covered in as small as she can and he walks over and drags the knife across her feet and he
00:40:29
says i just want you to know that my knives are much sharper than yours oh my god did he cut her
00:40:36
feet or just kind of was like threatening her? It says she said dragged across. So we don't know. So I would think I think
00:40:42
she'd say cut. Yeah. Anyway, you're right. He tells her to look down and close her eyes and
00:40:48
not to look at him. And then she does it. He takes his ninja mask off his face and wraps it around her
00:40:54
head as a blindfold. And then he says it's a shame you can't see me. I'm half black and half white and
00:41:02
I'm a very handsome man. what a weird power move yeah for sure um he starts asking her how much money she has she offers to
00:41:14
drive him to the bank she says she'll give you a she'll give him everything she has in the bank
00:41:18
um you know she's bargaining obviously she says let me write you a check i'll give you everything
00:41:23
i have he says to her you're gonna have a bad accident lady oh my god yeah he holds a knife
00:41:31
through her throat, he binds her ankles and her hands behind her back. Um, and I just also say
00:41:37
that if someone either lets you see them when they're attacking you or says to you what they
00:41:42
look like, then I would be like, Oh shit, I'm not getting away from this to identify him.
00:41:48
That right Yeah You know Yeah Yeah I think that very realistic here Um so he starts to explain to her what his deal is and basically says that he been hiding in her attic for two days So he knows that the husband is golfing all day and he knows that the son is gone all day
00:42:08
He knows no one's coming for her. He knows he's not going to get interrupted. And then he says, I'm going to rape you.
00:42:16
She begs for mercy as a Christian woman. He says it doesn't matter what he does to her because no one's ever going to catch him.
00:42:25
Um, so he says, get back on the bed and then he rapes her. And when he's done, he goes and takes a shower and he puts his ninja suit back on.
00:42:33
No. Um, so she now is so scared that he's going to kill her. She doesn't try to move.
00:42:39
She doesn't try to escape. He cuts her hands apart. He pulls off the blindfold. He shows her a check that he's taken out of her purse that he's written out to the amount of $600.
00:42:49
and then he tells her to write his name on the check, Troy Eugene Wigley. He gave her his full name to write on the check.
00:43:00
What the fuck? So she writes it. Then he says to lay on the floor in the bathroom in the fetal position
00:43:06
and she does it and she says she feels the right side of her head explode. And what's happened is he's hit her in the head with a hammer.
00:43:14
Oh no, hammer is always my nightmare. It's so gross. Oh my God. She feels her head explode. Yeah. That's so descriptive. And she doesn't know
00:43:25
what's going on, obviously. Like that's the thing on that show that freaks me out all the time.
00:43:30
Yeah. People get shot in the head and they're sitting there telling their story completely
00:43:34
regular, like it was you or I, and they've been shot in the head. And when they describe it,
00:43:40
it's that thing where that, cause you don't know what happened. It's like all of a sudden there was
00:43:45
a weird sound in my ear. Like the way the, the personal experience, that's why I'm obsessed with
00:43:50
that show. It's the personal experience of it. I don't think I really understand. And that's
00:43:54
probably what the show is too, is like, I don't comprehend being blindfolded and how specifically
00:44:00
scary that must be. Like, I don't think about that part, you know, where it's like, you actually
00:44:05
are not aware of anything in your life going on and all you have are your thoughts.
00:44:10
right you don't get to experience it i don't think about that you know like yeah that sounds
00:44:16
i need it i need to put myself in that position and think about it or you don't have to yeah that's
00:44:22
you don't have to okay i mean you don't have okay all right i feel so obligated to put my
00:44:28
myself in these victims shoes so i can well that's good i mean it's about empathy yeah
00:44:36
But it's just, to me, it's also just medically fascinating. Like, you would think if somebody got hit, if you got hit in the head with a hammer intentionally,
00:44:45
you're not going to survive that. No. And people do. People survive all kinds of shit.
00:44:50
Yeah. It's fucking crazy. Okay, so then he stabs her in the left breast. Oh, no.
00:44:56
So then he hits her in the head again, stabs her twice in the back of the neck. Oh, my God.
00:45:00
It's going to get worse. Okay. Don't worry. It gets worse. Then he tries to, oh, wait, you stop sipping coffee.
00:45:10
Because I'm going to spit everywhere. He tries to stab her in the skull. But the knife won't go in.
00:45:15
I can't. So he hammers the knife into her skull. Oh! All right. I can't do this.
00:45:22
I also think that Vince is in the other room listening to this song. He's horrified by me.
00:45:27
There's no way he doesn't have the earbuds in. Because Vince doesn't like true crime.
00:45:31
It's true. You're right. He's got those headphones in. But this is the thing about, and I won't say it again.
00:45:36
This is the 19th time I've said it. It's her telling the story. I know. She's the one going, then he hammered the knife into my skull.
00:45:45
So there's that part of it where it's a person who went through this and came out the other side.
00:45:50
Came out. Okay. Oh, Jesus. Then he, one last thing. Okay. I'm here. I'm here with you.
00:45:56
He tries to pull the knife out. It won't come out. So he's shaking her head around.
00:46:01
Your hand movement just now. Okay. he's he's trying to get it out he eventually puts his foot on her head to pull the knife out
00:46:10
she can she feels all this but then she starts to go out of consciousness honestly i'm i'm kind of
00:46:15
getting a little woozy right now really like i'm sweating a little yeah this is bad this is a bad
00:46:20
one uh so she's going in and out of consciousness she doesn't know where he is she looks into the
00:46:28
bedroom and he's standing there with the and he doesn't have the it ninja outfit on anymore and
00:46:32
he screams, put your head back down. Um, so she stops moving. She's like, and he comes and he
00:46:39
pulls her wedding rings off. So she's like, Oh, he's going to kill me for sure. She's freezing
00:46:45
cold. She's lost so much blood, but she knows he's going to kill me. So she has to do something.
00:46:50
So, uh, he walks away once he pulls those rings off, he leaves and she doesn't know where he is,
00:46:56
but she decides she has to this whole time she's been in the bathroom. Yeah. Um, she's like,
00:47:01
I have to get out of here. So she pulls herself along the ground out of the bathroom, through the
00:47:06
bedroom and pushes herself down a flight of stairs to get downstairs to the phone. Oh my God. And she
00:47:12
gets to the phone. She, what drove me insane when I watched this for the first time, she called her
00:47:18
parents. No, but I don't know if it's because it was 1986. So maybe the 911 system wasn't in place
00:47:24
entirely. Yeah. Maybe it was like so rural or maybe her brain just wasn't functioning correctly.
00:47:28
and the only phone number that could come to her was her family's childhood home.
00:47:33
That would make perfect sense. I remember mine still. Oh, you gave the area code too.
00:47:41
Shit. Well, whoever, call someone, no, don't call that. Can you bleep out part of it, Stephen?
00:47:48
We're so proud to know our own phone number. I know that we give out our social security number.
00:47:52
Okay, so basically she goes out of consciousness for a little while. the next time she remembers anything,
00:47:58
she heard her father screaming, He came in with the EMTs. So they all found her kind of together.
00:48:04
They load her up and she hears two EMTs talking over her about how she's not going to make it.
00:48:11
Oh, my God. In her head, she's like, I am too going to make it. That's when she like turned.
00:48:16
Fuck yeah, girl. It's so awesome. And she's just basically like, this man is not going to take my life from me.
00:48:21
It's not happening. That is amazing. So they get her to the hospital. She has so many stab wounds.
00:48:28
she needs over 600 stitches. Oh my God. I think in the end she ended up, he stopped her over 30 times.
00:48:41
He was 18 years old. Troy Wigley was arrested at the bank trying to cash the check that he forced her to write to him.
00:48:51
He's convicted of aggravated robbery. He's sentenced to life in prison. Oh, thank God.
00:48:56
Yeah. I looked up his name I looked up her I looked up a bunch of stuff to try to find out
00:49:02
what that was about because it sounds like one of those things where if they didn't have
00:49:06
evidence here or there they were just trying to get him on something that stuck blah blah blah
00:49:12
but to me it's so insane if she's been stabbed multiple times why aggravated robbery
00:49:18
is what he actually gets convicted on right because attempted murder for some reason isn't treated as murder.
00:49:28
It's not murder. Right. That's why it's not treated as murder. No, but that drives me crazy.
00:49:33
I know, but it's not. I know, I know. They have to be two different things. I know.
00:49:36
I mean, they just do. But, so she makes a full recovery. It takes her years of pain and hard work.
00:49:43
She said she spent a lot of time in denial about what happened to her. She spent months crying, obviously.
00:49:50
Who wouldn't? she had multiple surgeries for all of her wounds. She developed a lot of stress-related illnesses
00:49:58
that lasted for years because of the trauma. Her marriage crumbled. She was left
00:50:02
without a job or money. But she was determined to come out on the other side stronger.
00:50:09
What an amazing woman. So she realizes she has to get help so she gets counseling
00:50:14
and she joins a victim support group. Amazing. And she decides that her first goal
00:50:20
that she has to set goals for herself so she can recover like she has to make it a step-by-step
00:50:24
process so her first goal is she's going to release all the rage and anger that she has
00:50:30
about what happened to her um because she uh realizes that's that's how she's going to get
00:50:37
better for herself um and then she starts to speak out for victims rights and what needs to change
00:50:44
in what she calls our offender-focused criminal justice system. In 1991, she's appointed by then-Governor Ann Richards
00:50:55
to serve on the Texas Board of Criminal Justice, and she did it for six years. Holy shit.
00:51:00
It was an unpaid position. So while she was there, she started, and it went from part-time to full-time,
00:51:07
and she just started doing all kinds of research on the Texas criminal justice system,
00:51:13
on victims' rights, on rehabilitation for prisoners, as opposed to just punitive, you know, lock them up and throw away the key.
00:51:22
In 1996, both the Texas Corrections Association and the Texas Crime Victim Clearinghouse established awards in her name
00:51:30
to recognize her work on behalf of crime victims. Because of her tireless advocacy for rehabilitation of offenders and her dedication to the victims' rights,
00:51:40
In 1995, a 500-bed female substance abuse treatment unit was named after her. Oh, my God.
00:51:47
In 1997, she won the National Crime Victim Service Award, the highest federal award for service to victims.
00:51:53
In 1999, she was named one of Texas's Women of this Century. Holy shit. And in 2001, she was the mediator for a court TV documentary called Meeting with a Killer, One Family's Journey, which was nominated for an Emmy in 2002.
00:52:07
How have I not watched that? Court TV. Maybe it's just old. Yeah. Yeah. And Ellen Halbert is presently well presently at the time of the article that I was reading.
00:52:20
So might not be right now, but she is the director of the victim witness division at the district attorney's office in Travis County, Texas.
00:52:29
What an amazing human being. Isn't that fucking nuts? That, yeah, I'm trying to focus on that part instead of the other parts.
00:52:38
Because I feel, I think that's the point. I feel nauseous. Like, you know, like, because it's so funny how when it's a survivor, I feel like we've, I think we're both in the mindset that like, don't get too disgusting and graphic when it's someone who's died.
00:52:53
But when it's a survivor, you can explain everything that happened because they survived that.
00:52:56
Well, because it's her story. Right. So it's the way she tells it. Right. And she wants it told that way.
00:53:00
Tell it the way she tells it. Totally, totally. Yeah, that's how she wants it to be told.
00:53:05
Yeah. So, yeah, that's insane and amazing. And what a fucking inspiration and badass motherfucker.
00:53:14
Yeah, she's rad. Yeah. Wow. That was incredible. While the world watches the stars at the FIFA World Cup this summer, Hyundai has its eyes on the next generation of talent.
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If you're looking for your next listen, this is a great place to start. Listen to Earsay, the Audible and iHeart Audiobook Club, on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
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Terms and conditions apply. See Pandora.net for more details. Goodbye. Mine isn't so good.
00:55:06
Great. Mine is not so positive. All right. I'm not going to tell you the name of it because you're going to know it pretty quickly.
00:55:16
And yeah. June 12th, 1977. Nearly 140 Girl Scouts arrived at Camp Scott. Here we go.
00:55:28
Amazing. The Oklahoma Girl Scout murders. This is so fucking awful. Yeah. And there's a lot of stuff I didn't know about it.
00:55:35
I think I've kind of known the murder part, but didn't know what came after it. So they arrived at Camp Scott, a sprawling, heavily wooded property southeast of Locust Grove in northeast Oklahoma.
00:55:49
and the Girl Scouts had been coming to this spot every summer for 50 years. Three months before camp was supposed to start.
00:55:57
What? Just that idea. 50 years of historical 9 to 11 year olds in the woods. Yeah.
00:56:07
It just immediately made me go like, there's somebody that knew they came back every year.
00:56:11
There's somebody that like knew they would be there at that time. Yeah. And I went to Girl Scout camp in a situation, probably exactly the same setup as this story in this camp.
00:56:25
So I can picture exactly what happened. Sorry, I just remembered. Remember when I did that casino gig with Julian McCullough?
00:56:34
It was in Oklahoma. Oh, yeah. The woman who was the booker for that casino, which was the best gig, it was so much fun.
00:56:41
And I'm so sorry, I can't remember your name off the top. I will get it eventually.
00:56:49
Drove me by the street you turned down to get to this girl's dad camp, which is now a band.
00:56:56
Or maybe they turned it into something else. But we drove all around where she was like, you want me to show it to you?
00:57:01
And I was like, yes, I do want you to show it to me. But we couldn't. It was like too far.
00:57:05
She was like, it's basically over there. Yeah. Because it's the middle of, you know, big flat.
00:57:10
I think there's like a long walkway. I think that's called Cookie Lane. Three months before camp was to start, I think they're having like all the counselors come and learn what they're going to be doing.
00:57:21
April 1977, a counselor at Camp Scott had found that her tent had been ransacked and her donuts were stolen.
00:57:28
And in the donut box, in the empty box, was a note warning that three girls would be murdered at the camp in the future.
00:57:36
No. Yeah. I feel like I'd never heard that before. Yeah. Everyone wrote it off as a prank.
00:57:43
Yeah. Until. So June 12th, 1977, first official night of the two-week stay at Camp Scott.
00:57:51
The night is a big thunderstorm, so they don't have their usual activities. Everyone kind of just hunkers down into their tents.
00:57:58
So they had like, it was like the canvas tent material, but like a wood floor. Yeah.
00:58:04
That's actually when I went to camp. That's what the tents were like. Yeah. They called them cabins.
00:58:08
Right. When I went to Girl Scout camp, it was like that, too. and your like shitty cot bed and stuff.
00:58:13
Yeah. With your itchy fucking, what's it called? Sleeping bag. Yeah. It's all very uncomfortable.
00:58:21
Like it's fun at first and then you're like, my bed is way better. Yeah. And taking a shower, you're only allowed 30 second showers.
00:58:27
It sucks. What? Yeah. I think there was probably a drought at the time. And so they timed the showers and they literally shut off.
00:58:34
30 seconds. It must have been like 45 seconds or something like that. Still. Yeah.
00:58:38
They're like, we're teaching you how to conserve water. Teaching you how to be dirty.
00:58:42
Yeah. I hated it. So they hunker down for the night. It has no lights in any of the cabins.
00:58:51
They just have flashlights. So tent eight is known as Kiowa. And in that tent, usually it was four girls to attend.
00:59:00
No counselors in any of the tents. The three friends are Lori Lee Farmer. She's eight.
00:59:07
Doris Denise Milner, who's 10, and Michelle Gousset, who's 9. They're all from Broken Arrow, Oklahoma, which is a suburb of Tulsa.
00:59:17
And Kiowa, their cabin, was located the furthest from the camp counselor's tents.
00:59:23
It's about 86 yards away, and it's partially obscured by the shower for the camp.
00:59:29
So it was like the most remote cabin. And 86 yards is like almost a football field.
00:59:34
Is it? I didn't know. The football field's 100 yards. Yeah. So it's like, that's so far away.
00:59:40
It might be feet. I heard, it was one of those things where like in different articles, I read different things.
00:59:45
Oh, okay. So it might be feet. Yeah, yeah. That happens all the time where you're reading this exact same information, but that happens
00:59:49
all the time where it's like, is this person's name Jerry or James? Right. But it just changes per article.
00:59:55
Or someone in Reddit is like this is wrong But I wouldn be you know the way those things are like set up to make them more like in nature And 86 feet is still a long way off from responsible
01:00:08
Not even for nine and ten year old. But there's probably 16 year old girls who are counselors.
01:00:13
So it's and you can see like they have a layout online to show exactly where it is.
01:00:17
And it's absolutely on its own. So. So, okay. So that night, it's said, there's a book called The Camp Scott Murders by C.S. Kelly.
01:00:31
He says that two counselors had been frightened by two men at the camp that night,
01:00:35
and some campers said they saw a man in army boots behind a tent. There's so much pre-shit.
01:00:41
At 1.30 in the morning, someone hears moaning out near Camp Kiowa. Everyone's in their tent.
01:00:50
Carla, a camp counselor, she checks out the noise and described it as a low, guttural moaning.
01:00:55
But it would stop whenever her flashlight came near. Also, around 2 a.m., the tent flap of tent 7 is opened.
01:01:05
Three of the girls inside are sleeping, but the fourth girl stated that she noticed a beam of light moving around the interior from outside with a silhouette of a large figure behind it.
01:01:14
And then she says the figure moved off toward tent number 8. which is Keela. Nora just came back from camp. Your nine-year-old niece? Ten. Ten-year-old niece.
01:01:26
I mean, this is rough. Can you imagine? Okay. Well, imagine getting this call, your sister getting this call. Don't imagine it. No, I imagine things like that all the time.
01:01:36
Yeah. I know. It's so hard not to. Isn't that just the standard thing of like, oh yeah. For a
01:01:42
while, I told you that. For a while, I couldn't stop doing it. I finally had to call my sister
01:01:45
And I was like, I can't, I just can't stop imagining something. But my sister goes, oh yeah, I do that all the time.
01:01:51
Yeah. I do it all the time. And I was like, oh, okay. She's just like, too bad. That's how it is.
01:01:56
That's when you love a child. That's what happens. That's what, that's part of it.
01:01:59
I get it. So, all right. Moaning sounds are heard throughout the night, throughout the camp.
01:02:06
At around 3 a.m., a girl in the Cherokee section across the woods heard a scream coming from the direction of the Kiowa cabinet.
01:02:15
And here it says it was located about two city blocks away, and she heard moaning.
01:02:21
A girl in another cabin also heard a scream, and the cries she said sounded like,
01:02:29
Mama, Mama, someone yelling Mama, Mama. I know. The next morning, 6 a.m., June 13th, a camp counselor's on her way to the showers,
01:02:38
and she stumbles upon a horrific scene near Tent 8. How old? she's probably six days to camp counselor.
01:02:48
Oh, a counselor. Sorry. I didn't hear. Um, so the night before somewhere between two and four in the morning,
01:02:54
someone had cut his way into the tent. And here it gets horrible. He bludgeons and rapes Lori and Michelle.
01:03:05
Um, they had been struck and killed in the tent while they were sleeping and they
01:03:11
had been bounding. Uh, And then the person bound and gagged Doris and took her outside, raped and strangled her as well.
01:03:20
So then the two girls who are in the tent are stuffed into the bottom of their sleeping bags.
01:03:28
And their sleeping bags are pulled to where Doris is on a path about 150 feet away from the tent.
01:03:35
So all three girls are left together on a trail. um goosey and farmer sleeping bags had blood their bodies and were inside they had bloody
01:03:44
bed sheets that had been used the killer tried to wipe down the blood that was on the floor of
01:03:49
the cabin which is so weird um and they also found a roll of black duct tape and a flashlight
01:03:55
the murderer had discarded i was thinking like was his blood in that blood and that's why he was
01:04:03
trying to clean it up who know yeah yeah there was bloody bed sheets um it seemed like after
01:04:11
the attacks he tried to cover his tracks yeah which almost seems like he was panicking well
01:04:15
and also then hey don't leave your flashlight yeah it sounds like he was panicking maybe can't
01:04:22
realize what he had done tried to fix it you know um okay so four days later so police come they
01:04:33
They, you know, they clean up the scene. And four days later, you know, there's this insane manhunt that starts, like the biggest manhunt in Oklahoma history.
01:04:44
Four days later, police find sunglasses belonging to a Camp Scott counselor and a boot print that matched the one found at the scene of a crime in a cave near the camp.
01:04:55
So they find that and they also find a message written on the wall in one of the caves that says the killer was here.
01:05:02
Bye bye, fools. And then the date 61777. They also find tape, plastic bags, plastic from a garbage bag similar to that wrapped around the flashlight found next to the girls and a newspaper from the same edition as the piece discovered in the flashlight left next to the girls.
01:05:21
And they also find two photos. They find two photos of women. The photos are determined to be from the wedding of a prison guard.
01:05:33
And they're traced back to a man named Gene Leroy Hart, who had been working at the photo lab in Granite Reformatory and had developed the photos of the wedding of the prison guard when he was serving time for kidnapping and first degree rape convictions in 1966.
01:05:51
So he had these photos of these women for some reason left them behind and they were able to trace them back to him OK but they so that means he developed these pictures because it was his job at the at the prison Yeah But those pictures were never given to the prison guard
01:06:08
He probably made make copies of them for himself. Maybe there were two pretty women and he wanted to keep the photos of women.
01:06:14
But it's not the prison guard is in the clear. Yeah, it's not the prison guard. Yeah. So we'll talk about Jean Leroy Hart.
01:06:21
He's a 34-year-old Cherokee Native American. He's 5'10", weighs about 200 pounds.
01:06:27
He's pretty built. He's like a thick dude. He's got black hair, brown eyes. He's born and raised in Locust Grove, which is right next to the camp.
01:06:36
He was a high school football star. He was bright and popular. One of his teachers said he just wasn't the kind of kid you would have thought would have turned out bad.
01:06:46
But he was an immediate suspect. At the time of the murders, he was on the run from police because he had escaped jail in 1973.
01:06:55
He was 22 when he was arrested and accused of abducting two pregnant women from a Tulsa club, raping one of them.
01:07:03
And he pleaded guilty and was sentenced to three concurrent 10 year prison terms, which is 10 years, as we know.
01:07:09
Three concurrent 10 year terms is 10 years, not 30 years. Exactly. Which is absurd.
01:07:16
he's paroled after for raping and kidnapping two pregnant women he's paroled after 28 months
01:07:23
he's arrested again in 1969 this time he's charged with four counts of first degree burglary
01:07:32
please not guilty he's found guilty and for this this and his past crimes then he's finally
01:07:38
sentenced to a maximum of 305 years in prison jesus so you know that judge probably was like
01:07:45
a gas that he got out so quickly for rape and kind of threw the book at him, maybe?
01:07:51
Yeah, maybe. The only problem is that if he was set up for the first one, then his...
01:07:56
I don't think he was. That's the only problem. Well, I know you don't think he was.
01:07:59
Well, he pled guilty to that. I know. Lots of people do that. I know, I know. So he had grown up a half a mile north of Camp Scott.
01:08:08
There were other suspects, including a convicted rapist named Bill Stevens. The couple who knew a couple who knew Stephen said he borrowed a flashlight that matched the description of the one used left in the crime scene a few days before the murder.
01:08:21
And he showed up with what looked like blood on his boots. He told them he experienced car travel in Locust Grove.
01:08:28
He denied everything. He said he hadn't been in the area. And but a scout at the camp testified that she had seen a man who looked like him at the camp.
01:08:39
But they still focused on heart. the manhunt would go down as the largest in state history. It took an entire year to catch him.
01:08:47
He was just cave to cave, house to house, on the run. So they found him in April 1978. He'd
01:08:55
been hiding out in the area. And each cave released, each cave had clues and evidence
01:09:02
related to the Girl Scout murders. So they, you know, confirming to police that he was their man.
01:09:08
They found a mirror and a toy pipe, which another counselor testified had been taking from her tent.
01:09:15
He went to trial for the murders and faced three counts of first-degree murder. He was acquitted after just five hours of deliberation.
01:09:22
So this whole community of people and so many people in the community rallied behind him
01:09:27
and thought it was a setup, that the evidence had been planted, that he was a good kid.
01:09:34
the, of course, Cherokee Indians, not of course, but they backed. They didn't come out as saying
01:09:40
they thought he hadn't done it, but they said they were giving him money for his defense
01:09:44
to support him because as an American, a Native American, they didn't think he would get a fair
01:09:52
trial unless he had the money to represent himself, which obviously is true. But they said
01:09:58
specifically, we're not saying we think he's innocent or guilty. They just wanted him to have
01:10:03
a fair trial. Exactly. Right. So, um, because probably in that area, the go-to thing is if
01:10:11
something happens, why don't you go look on the reservation? Why don't you go look at a Native
01:10:16
American? Exactly. Yeah. Um, and all the other suspects that they had and that are still around
01:10:22
were white. So they just went out and it seemed like they went after him. Yeah. But he was acquitted.
01:10:28
Everyone in the courtroom cheered, which if you read articles, the three families of the three
01:10:33
killed girls were just so devastated when people were cheering that he got off. Of course.
01:10:42
And the jurors ended up saying there were too many loose ends, too many things didn't add up.
01:10:47
One juror said none of us knew whether he did it or didn't. We were shocked that they didn't
01:10:51
have more evidence than what they had. So they just couldn't convict him. But because of his
01:10:58
previous jailbreak and his earlier crimes. He was taken to prison to serve the remaining 300 years
01:11:03
of his previous rape and burglary convictions. So he's taken to prison anyways. Three weeks later,
01:11:10
in 1979, at 35 years old, while jogging in the prison yard, he dies of a heart attack.
01:11:19
Some people think he didn't do it or that he didn't act alone. There's physical evidence left
01:11:27
behind in the crime scene that was recovered during the autopsy that indicates that two offenders
01:11:32
were involved in the crime, including two different knots being used to tie up the girls,
01:11:36
which I think is always kind of a weird sign, right? And the girls were separated and died
01:11:40
in different manners. Evidence presented at Hart's trial that was used to rule him out included a
01:11:48
footprint in the blood of the floor of the cabin that is a size 10. Hart's feet were closer to an
01:11:53
11 and a half. There's also a fingerprint on the flashlight found at the scene that wasn't
01:11:57
hearts, which I don't think is that weird. It's not like one person would have held that flashlight, period.
01:12:05
There could have been a lot of people. In the life of the flashlight. Right. Yeah, exactly.
01:12:10
Then a bunch of DNA tests have been done on biological evidence from the crime scene since the murders throughout the years.
01:12:16
There's been nothing conclusive that has come, although in 1989, so of five aspects of DNA tested from the scene, three matched some bodily fluids that were taken from heart.
01:12:30
only one in 7,700 American Indians would match the samples of that fluid. But because there were only three instead of five matched,
01:12:40
their results were officially deemed inconclusive. But an analysis of sperm samples showed that only 0.002% of the population
01:12:48
met the characteristics contained in the evidence, and heart was included in this.
01:12:53
Wow. Yeah. So those numbers are way huger than one in 77,000. or whatever. And if they had that technology in 1979, maybe he would have been, that would have
01:13:04
been enough evidence for the jury. They kind of went on all circumstantial evidence. Because they
01:13:08
had to. Because that's all they had. Right. Which, you know, it's almost like if they could have
01:13:13
waited to have, you know, a lot of times they'll wait to have more evidence to bring them to trial.
01:13:19
I don't know. Yeah, but you can't wait years. Yeah, but he's in prison anyways. Yeah, but it's a speedy trial. That's true. And the family wants justice.
01:13:27
You can't be like, you know, across her fingers that good science is coming. Also, because back then, I think they had no idea the kind of forensics that were going to eventually exist.
01:13:38
Sometimes they're like, like in the 80s, I feel like they are finally like, well, this new technology is coming out.
01:13:44
A lot of times you hear on like forensic files, let's wait until that technology has, you know, every year I feel like there's a new way of testing some fluid or some stain that they weren't able to do before.
01:13:56
to extract a different strain of DNA. I don't know if I sound like, I don't know what I'm fucking talking about.
01:14:03
But I mean, yeah, pretty standard. Yeah. Not like science. I think this is what we do.
01:14:10
We're just basically repeating what we watch on Forensic Files and other shows that tell us about DNA.
01:14:15
Vague postulating. And you know what's so interesting is in this trial, they used things that are now discounted, like hair samples.
01:14:23
They found a hair that they said matched him. And there was another thing that they found that they said matched him that now wouldn't be admissible in court.
01:14:31
Is it a fiber thing? Probably fibers, yeah, that now would never be admissible in court.
01:14:35
Yeah. So it's, yeah, it's still kind of weird. Let's see. Members of Hart's Native American family also accused the police of going after Hart because he's a Native American.
01:14:47
Many people said that the sheriff of town was really vindictive because Hart had made him look bad for escaping twice.
01:14:54
I just spit. And being on the lam so long, he was on the lam for four years, which makes the sheriff look really stupid.
01:15:00
So he tries to throw the book at him. Wow. And a former prosecutor tried to turn the killing and Hart's arrest into a position as a state attorney general and to write a book about it.
01:15:15
So for monetary gain as well. So that's kind of their proof that he was railroaded.
01:15:21
So after he died, authorities didn't pursue that many other suspects after the killings of, and I want to say their names again, because, you know, they're kind of ignored.
01:15:32
So Laura Lee Farmer, Doris Denise Milner and Michelle Gousset, no other suspects were really pursued or arrested.
01:15:42
And then all the parents went on to do all this, of course, victims advocacy. They were all, you know, they all are interviewed and ended up being these incredible people and doing good things afterwards.
01:15:55
But when the sister of Lori when she went back to school after the murder of her sister two years after and after he had been acquitted hard had been acquitted she wrote a school
01:16:09
And this is just so sad to me. She wrote a school paper. And in it, she said, one nation under God, indivisible with liberty and justice for all, except for my family.
01:16:20
Oh, no. I know. And that's the story of the Oklahoma Girl Scout murder. Isn't that sad?
01:16:28
It's so sad. These little girls. Also, to me, it's just like that crime. This is all I think about.
01:16:39
Who knows what really happened? Like the idea that someone hides in caves when they're on the lam is the perfect way to set somebody up to put shit in a cave.
01:16:51
Go find a cave. Why would you? This is like Jack the Ripper stuff. Why would you write on the wall?
01:16:55
If you did this thing, you would cover all your tracks and get the fuck out. I'm going to go writing on the wall.
01:17:00
Bye-bye, motherfuckers. That's so stupid. With a date, putting the date. A date and like, yeah.
01:17:06
Unless you were taunting the police. Unless you were taunting the police or unless the police were trying to set somebody up
01:17:13
to perfectly match what he'd already done in that kind of making a murderer way,
01:17:18
which is like, we don't like you. We don't like your type. We're going to take care of business.
01:17:21
Yeah, and we've been trying to find you. We don't have any more budget to put into this.
01:17:25
But if you're the child murderer and rapist, then we can put all of our resources into finding you.
01:17:32
The only problem I was just going to say, the only problem that I mean, obviously, the thing that makes me upset about that, then if that if that is what they're doing, if their agenda turns from finding the person who did it into getting the person that has shamed them or whatever fucking problem there is.
01:17:49
then we still have a person who stabbed three nine-year-old girls with a fucking knife and
01:17:55
raped them walking around the world. That's the problem to me. Yeah. And so it's one of those cases where I don't know if he's guilty or not, but I could
01:18:05
argue either way, you know, that the evidence was planted in the caves or he was taunting them.
01:18:10
You know, it's either one is plausible. And then arguing, like, I hadn't thought about what you
01:18:15
said, which is, did he not commit those rapes? If he committed those rapes, to me, it's obvious
01:18:22
that he was also capable, you know, of this crime. And I also, I'm leaning more towards him having,
01:18:31
it being more than one person who committed those crimes because of the ropes being different knots,
01:18:39
because of them being separated and being murdered in different ways. Two of the girls were immediately knocked unconscious and left in the cabin,
01:18:50
and one wasn't. It's weird. It's all different MOs. Yeah, and people argue that how would one person be able to handle these three girls,
01:19:05
which I think is a bullshit argument because two girls were unconscious, But not only that, we know that these predators can scare especially small girls into obeying them or else.
01:19:16
Richard Speck. Yeah. It was eight, I believe, off the top of my head. The nurses.
01:19:20
Eight nurses, fully grown women, who he got to all stay in a room while he took them out one by one, raped and murdered them.
01:19:29
And they can't, like, the woman who was hiding was just like, you don't understand.
01:19:33
It was, he had a gun and he kept being very soothing or whatever. So being able to control people when you are the attacker is...
01:19:42
I love when people argue that shit. We're just like, what are you fucking talking about?
01:19:45
We're not sitting... Those people weren't sitting on a couch drinking coffee casually.
01:19:49
They were... They said, if you scream, we're going to kill your family. Yes. As simple as that.
01:19:55
If you scream I shoot your friend over here That kind of stuff I mean I hate that argument So that I think you can really But other little things like this different kinds of ropes
01:20:06
It's just. It just feels like if there's ever a murder that should have been solved.
01:20:11
Right. You know, three 10 year old girls at Girl Scout camp, they should have fucking figured out the best way to figure out who did that.
01:20:21
Well, I feel. And they're also doing. They're continuing the DNA testing. So as it does get more advanced, they're trying to still open.
01:20:29
Yeah. And they are like sending different kinds of like the new swabs they can actually test.
01:20:35
They're still doing that. So there still might be an answer one day. Don't you think it's possible now?
01:20:41
You know, I'm love to devil's advocate and I love to go like, what is the thing that isn't being thought of or something?
01:20:48
Yeah. The idea that he's jogging in jail and dies of a heart attack at age 35. Yeah.
01:20:54
is interesting to me. Not that it isn't possible, and there's some people that have congenital heart problems.
01:21:00
That's what they said. You know, he runs in his family. He was really out of shape.
01:21:04
But 35, definitely. Then why is he jogging? Yeah. Oh, now you're going to get it all together once you're fucking in jail?
01:21:11
Yeah. You know what? I got it. I'm going to lose this last 20 pounds. That's definitely a good argument.
01:21:16
And it's the thing of, like, if that DNA does come back to him, which it kind of seems like it did in these other ways,
01:21:22
people are going to say, well, it was planted. So I think unless it comes back as someone else
01:21:27
doing it, no one's ever going to fully believe that he and conclusively believe that he was the
01:21:33
killer. Right. You know what I mean? Yeah. But, but then hearing that he got acquitted is just so,
01:21:42
if you believe it was him is so heartbreaking. And I think his family, the families all believed it
01:21:47
was him. Of course they did. Yeah, they wanted to. But then. But also it's that it makes me think of
01:21:53
the Memphis, the West Memphis three. Yeah. When you have the perfect person who did it,
01:22:00
you want it to be over. Yeah. You want to be over. And you also want to show everyone that,
01:22:05
or the, you know, the police force and the FBI was there every, you know, that was a huge manhunt.
01:22:10
for a year, you want to show that you have done your due diligence and you've caught the bad guy.
01:22:19
Everyone can stop being afraid. Because can you imagine you're for a year, this person who has
01:22:24
no problem raping and sodomizing a fucking nine year old is on the loose. Yeah. In the neighborhood.
01:22:31
Then I, you know, you have to look at all the photos of the three girls are just these sweet
01:22:35
baby angel, like young sweethearts. And then I look at the photos of them with their siblings.
01:22:40
And it's those poor, you know, I feel so bad for the victim, but the siblings too, you know, the rest of their lives must have been so horrifying.
01:22:50
Yeah. It's not something you ever get over. Right. Especially then you go and have children and you see your own nine-year-old daughter and, you know, how can you imagine someone hurting that person?
01:23:01
What a fucking monster. Yeah. Yeah. They've got to figure out a way, minority report style, to figure out who these people
01:23:12
are conclusively. I feel like that's what I feel like instead of making for profit prisons, maybe people,
01:23:23
it should be like, can we just actually focus on so that when these people exist in society,
01:23:28
we figure out a way to find them and make sure they don't do this to people. Well, yeah, we brain scan them and that brain scan tells us what they're capable of, what they're lying about.
01:23:40
Even if they're a sociopath, you can still see that like what neurons fire when they're lying.
01:23:45
Listen, if they have a memory of this crime. If their brains are see like those fish from way down deep in the deepest depths of the ocean What are their brains made of Are they made of goldfish crackers Are they just a ton of tiny knives in there If there are tiny knives then it a tiny murderer
01:24:06
Is there a tiny murderer in the brain controlling it with controls? If there is, let's get rid of those people.
01:24:13
Let's put them all on some kind of leper's island. Great. This has been a serious waste of time.
01:24:20
Thanks, everybody. No, it hasn't. Maybe we'll change everything. No, it'll change nothing.
01:24:26
No, there's lots of people working hard to change things, I think, for sure. We hear from people all the time that are like, I'm going to fucking criminology school.
01:24:35
I'm a victim's advocate. Yeah, all the time. Yeah. It's very cool. And I think like that.
01:24:41
Yeah, it's that idea that instead of letting politics get in the way. And money.
01:24:47
Let's let's catch child murderers. Let's catch adult murderers. Let's like let's catch child murderers before they child murder.
01:24:54
But then we're getting into some really predictive. Right. Well, that is what Minority Board is about.
01:25:01
Which is like that and great graphics. What's the ethnicity about? And Tom Cruise at his best before the fucking downhill.
01:25:09
You guys who are younger don't remember that Tom Cruise was a heartthrob. You don't remember.
01:25:13
It was 2010. Seven years ago, though. Oh, my God. That's seven years ago. Seven years.
01:25:21
I know. I know. I mean. It's time goes by. I got to go to work. Okay, that's right.
01:25:27
You have to go to work. Oh, my God. Isn't that weird? This is coming out in two hours.
01:25:31
Yeah. If Stephen can. Sorry for the delay. I'm sure we're going to get. I'm sure Stephen's going to get and already has gotten lots of messages.
01:25:37
When we were texting yesterday about, is it okay if we do it in the morning? And Stephen's like, yeah, but it's going to be late and people get upset.
01:25:43
You know, we should let them know. And then we, and then I said, okay, just tell them it's your fault.
01:25:50
Stephen. David. Tell them you did it. Stephen. It's all me. Elvis can't meow on this one.
01:25:58
I know. Where's the kitten? So you can hit it in the face. I know. Where's that kitten?
01:26:04
I was going to make her meow. Listen, I love her. Fucking Dottie. She's an angel baby.
01:26:09
Once Elvis is home, we'll... Hold good thoughts in your mind and prayers for Elvis for his quick recovery.
01:26:15
Yeah. So you can come back and eat cookies and meow with us soon. And until we see you again, stay sexy.
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