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Why is it always chaos when we link up? Because nobody plans anything, bro. Good thing the rug's ready like that.
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For real. Rain, dirt, whatever. available all-wheel drive five modes we still outside and they got some kick too that turbo
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torque is crazy the most in its class it moves moves rogue doesn't mess around and peep the space
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merch on merch gear mics all the fits load up we out 2026 nissan rogue built for all of it
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auto pacific segmentation 2026 rogue versus latest in-market competitors in the x suv mainstream
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mid-sites class, excluding electrical vehicles based on manufacturer websites. Hello and welcome to my favorite murder, the maxi-so.
00:02:40
the maxi pad episode this is the episode where we pour blue water onto your the maxi pad of your
00:02:49
interest here's what we promise you we'll be super absorbent yep unscented there will be no leaks
00:02:54
this entire episode there'll be wings but they'll work oh man the the darn things got wings do you
00:03:00
remember those ads oh when the always first came out with maxi pads with wings which is it should
00:03:05
have happened years ago it was a new thing it was so new and it was it came i think in the 90s right
00:03:11
late 80s maybe i may be in my period yet and there was literally a lady in the commercial
00:03:15
it did not apply to you there's a lady in the commercial holding up this nutso looking huge
00:03:21
maxi pad with the wings going the darn thing's got wings that's cute where is she today dad
00:03:26
she died of toxic shock syndrome because the whole thing was made of asbestos they didn't realize back then that they shouldn't kill women internally they didn't know you shouldn't
00:03:38
just shove asbestos right up your anyway look listen that's how we start listen this is just a free association episode whatever the mouths have and karen's eating
00:03:54
oh sorry canadian kit kats i keep forgetting there is a okay talk about it we have an let's
00:03:59
do an office corner okay we have everything you you tell a thing okay my thing in the office because
00:04:05
we're in the office it's the new studios it's very exciting every day there's a new thing
00:04:08
now the walls are painted that's exactly right that's exactly right um the acoustic tiles are
00:04:14
up waiting to be hung so that all the sound is perfection there's a steven in the corner
00:04:18
steven's got his whole thing set up including my favorite new clock there's a steven corner
00:04:23
at corrections on Stephen Corner. But my favorite thing, which is, and I apologize for you
00:04:29
having to listen to you too, but we are given so much candy and we might need to ask
00:04:35
please less candy at the shows. We have so much candy in this office that there is a literal
00:04:41
humongous drawer filled with Canadian Kit Kats in our kitchen and that's every time we come to record,
00:04:47
I just go open that drawer and pull one out for myself. It's amazing. How about we do a rule that if your name is Leslie
00:04:52
no how about if you were born in the month of october may or august you can bring us candy if
00:05:00
you want but otherwise or if your name is leslie or if it was leslie other than i e with a y whatever
00:05:07
doesn't matter and we're gonna look at your driver's license too you have to deny yeah yep
00:05:11
uh yes because it's getting so out of hand and it's very difficult not to eat high quality
00:05:17
chocolate if it's near you these fucking salted caramels we get from this is the this is the best
00:05:23
chocolatier in our in our town omaha and it's salted caramel and then the other problem is that
00:05:29
i love dark chocolate you hate it so i immediately get the dark chocolate and then my suitcase is
00:05:34
full of dark chocolate salted caramels and i want to cry i mean and here's the thing everybody
00:05:39
that gives us gifts has really good taste they know what a good gift is to give um they know to
00:05:45
go to the oldest candy store in their town because it reflects the town. It reflects quality.
00:05:51
It's good. It harkens back to a time of yore for whites. Let be specific But it really is the best So I will go home with a little box like a sees or whitman style tiny box of local candy and just be like well i have to eat it i here
00:06:10
i'm here in pittsburgh i do the thing i'm going to bring this home and give it to my mom or i have a
00:06:14
i have a shelf of like i'm just going to give that to someone else like yeah it's so nice but i don't
00:06:18
want this or that and then i just end up eating it all there's a whole fucking can of maple syrup
00:06:22
someone gave us in Canada that is like, well, I shouldn't let this go to waste. And now I have a fucking can of maple syrup.
00:06:28
That's like me sometimes when I'm in the grocery store and I want to buy candy, but I'm so ashamed to be buying candy that I have to make up a story in my head
00:06:37
where I start the story. This is for the kids. Someone's going to come over later.
00:06:41
Yep. This is for the kids. Who are the kids? There's not one child in my neighborhood.
00:06:45
I don't, I'm not friends with anybody in a day-to-day basis that I see children.
00:06:50
You don't own any children. I don't have them hidden in the attic. There's no fucking kids.
00:06:55
Okay, hold on. There's a gnat. We're going to get him. Record this or it might be edited out if it's terrible.
00:07:00
But there's a fucking gnat and I swear to God. There's a get in your face gnat that's flying through this room right now.
00:07:04
I bet you it's because we turned the lights off and it's cold up there now. Oh yeah.
00:07:08
But also I can't tell the gnat from the floaters in my eyes. Oh shit. I promise there's an...
00:07:13
No, I saw it coming at me. It'll happen at some point. We'll get that little motherfucker.
00:07:19
my office update corner so let's talk about the raggedy clown that we there's okay i think we
00:07:28
talked about this in the past episode we'll put a photo of it up and maybe a video of it up on
00:07:33
our social network someone gifted us what's a raggedy it looks like a raggedy ann but it's a
00:07:39
clown and on one side it's a happy face and then you turn it over the other side of the back of his
00:07:43
It's a fucking vintage clown sad face. With tears on its own face. Crying, knit tears.
00:07:51
Almost got them. Didn't get it. Knit tears. Why is it happening? And I was talking, so I came here early and I was talking to Stephen and Danielle.
00:08:02
Private conversation? Yeah. But I'm going to tell you that now. Okay. No, no, no.
00:08:05
So I walk in the office and I'm like, why is the clown right there? That's not where we originally put the clown.
00:08:10
And it's a weird place. in a weird place. And I realized that lately, I've been coming in the office, and it's been in
00:08:15
different places every time. So I come in here and Stephen and Danielle, who's our exactly right
00:08:20
executive producer. Yes. And she's running this network. She's so fucking amazing. Danielle
00:08:25
Kramer, we love her the best. And I said, which one of you guys are moving the clown like as a
00:08:29
joke. And they were both like, we are not moving it. And I believe them. They're not lying people.
00:08:34
And then at 5am the other day, the alarm went off here. And it's moving all the time. And then
00:08:40
And Danielle said when she listened to the video of the alarm going off, she heard like creepy voices.
00:08:45
No. Yes. I didn't know that. Yeah. I just found out. And I was like, don't tell Karen.
00:08:49
I'm going to tell her on the podcast. Okay. Because I absolutely assumed Stephen was moving the clown.
00:08:56
Stephen. Well, so I have moved it once or twice. But this last time they came in and there was something on the floor and I took a picture and sent it to Danielle.
00:09:06
Because if anything goes wrong, I'm like, let's see, Danielle. And it was part of the alarm system.
00:09:09
Yeah, yeah. And I'm like, Danielle knows what's up. She's going to, she's, yeah, she's running the place.
00:09:13
And then she was like, oh, do you mind just putting it back in its spot? And so I went back into the main room and put it in its spot.
00:09:21
I noticed the clown was in the corner. Like turned around and the clown was there.
00:09:24
Like the clown was in the, I did not notice it when I walked in. I'm like getting chills just saying right now, but.
00:09:29
It's fucking Chucky. But can I just say this then? The other night when I was leaving, I did, I don't know if I moved to the clown.
00:09:36
Oh, no. But I definitely turned the clown around. So it wasn't the crying face. It was the happy face.
00:09:41
Because I was like, we don't need to be looking at the sad side of the clown. Well, the only other person that could have done it, the only other employee and person who works for Exactly Right Media is Jay.
00:09:52
Yes. And the three of you could not be more of an honest bunch that wouldn't fucking play pranks.
00:10:00
So I don't. Okay. So here's my idea. Because it's two days after April Fool's. So it'd just be lame.
00:10:05
And April Fool's is lame. Steven honestly drop the prank now. Steven look at me.
00:10:10
God damn it you rascal. So here was my idea in case it is haunted. And then we're like let's get rid of it.
00:10:16
But I think it's the coolest thing. And I remember the two girls who gave it to us.
00:10:19
I feel like the women that gave it to us. It was in. Okay. So I'm 100% wrong. But I remember it being these two gals in Arizona being like we found this today at a thrift store.
00:10:33
And we thought it would be great for you. And then we started crying and they were like so happy about our reaction.
00:10:37
So Stephen and Danielle had the great idea. We're going to fucking Arizona this weekend.
00:10:42
Drop it back off. Give it back to them and give it to the hometown person. It's your problem now.
00:10:47
But then we have to fly with it. That's right. And we have to buy it its own seat.
00:10:52
Did you know that? You have to strap it in. You can't just sit in your lap or underneath the seat running out.
00:10:58
Haunted clowns, man. Those are expensive. For some reason, I remembered getting that clown from those guys, those people, those women after the Circleville when we were in Ohio.
00:11:13
I feel like that's the area we were in. But now you could tell me anywhere. You could tell me.
00:11:18
I think you're right. But I want to. But let's pretend I am and bring it with us this weekend.
00:11:22
Stephen, will you look up in the email just because I feel like we had at least one conversation with the people who gave us the email that then said, we are the ones that sent you the clown.
00:11:33
Stephen, I'm the clown. Either way. I got it! Are you sure that's not part of the KitKat?
00:11:38
It might be in your KitKat now. That's probably for the best. Well, we should find out because if you take it to Arizona, you're just unleashing the clown.
00:11:46
You know what? Maybe it's for everyone. That's right. Good. Exactly. Am I right?
00:11:52
we throw it into the crowd. It's up to you now to fucking handle this What if but what if if we bring on the plane and it an emotional support haunted clown then is it fine Well it depends on how much support it brings you and if it really makes a difference
00:12:05
Because we could travel and take this journey with this haunted clown and find out that all along the haunted clown was inside us.
00:12:15
Okay. All right. And this weekend, Vince isn't going to be with us. Oh, that's right.
00:12:19
On tour because it's WrestleMania and that's the only thing he would forsake us for nothing else.
00:12:25
Yeah, except for he would not have any part of that clown. No, you're right. He wouldn't.
00:12:31
Or you're saying? I'm just saying. Oh, for WrestleMania would be the only thing.
00:12:35
It's definitely going to be a weird weekend. We're going to be off our kilters because we don't have our grounding.
00:12:42
Emotional support Vince. Yes, our emotional support soil that is Vince Averill. But we'll have a word.
00:12:47
Okay, it'll be fine. Everything's fine. We'll see if it's fine or not. Well, we'll let you know.
00:12:52
You'll know. You'll definitely know. You'll be the first to know. Smoke and the flames.
00:12:56
And you'll know. Now, the last time we were in Phoenix, that was when we were in the revolving theater.
00:13:02
The circle stage revolving theater. Really one of the most fun times of my life, I think.
00:13:09
Yeah. That night, that audience, the interaction, and the fact that the stage was moving the entire fucking time.
00:13:18
I will never forget it. that was beautiful it was magical um we have some announcements oh yeah because we have this
00:13:24
podcast network yeah this is a exactly right corner god you gotta get something better than
00:13:29
that yeah well these are just update these are network updates this is a yes that's my news
00:13:36
teletype it's your phone is buzzing exactly when that was going on is that your phone let's just
00:13:42
see who it is okay i'm so excited is that it oh it's from san juan capistrano oh your favorite
00:13:49
place to vacation what would that be your favorite i love to go down when the swallows come back
00:13:55
and shoot swallows bite their heads have you it's the best vacation pita email us it's oh
00:14:02
we love your cartoons we love your interactions um oh yeah so god exactly right is the podcast
00:14:10
network we have started and the jensen and hols murder squad just premiered um and you guys came
00:14:17
out in full force. These guys have been number one on the overall podcast network charts.
00:14:23
Since the night before it premiered and is staying there. I want to convey how incredible
00:14:30
this is to us and how much this means to us and how important this is. And this podcast is
00:14:36
incredible. Jensen and Hall's Murder Squad, but it says so much. You guys made us look really
00:14:41
fucking good. Yeah, because we were like, we swear to God, if you guys help us make this,
00:14:46
this thing will go it will be big and people will love it we had to sell it yeah and it really worked
00:14:52
and the ultimate i i was telling you and uh danielle and steven this earlier but the ultimate
00:14:57
compliment was the day after it came out my sister called who is not a murderer you know
00:15:01
or and is not interested she's real happy for you but she's she's proud from a distance but
00:15:06
doesn't want to get involved so that's her whole stance on everything and she is she doesn't like
00:15:11
true crime, it freaks her out. She listened anyway, and loved it. And she was just like,
00:15:16
it's amazing that I love the song. I love the whole setup in the beginning. But to listen to
00:15:21
professional people discuss the jobs they've had and the work they've done and where it is now and
00:15:27
where they want it to go. She's like, I think it's going to change the way people interact with like
00:15:32
their media. I think so too. And I just is here's the thing. You don't have to believe Laura Kilgariff,
00:15:37
But she is the one that spotted George Clooney on the early episodes of The Facts of Life when he was just the handyman at the store and was like, who's that guy?
00:15:48
And it was back when he had long, weird hair and was kind of beefy. She Clooneyed.
00:15:51
She Clooneyed early. Yeah. And hard. And hard. Oh, God. So, but this week, on the network, all six podcasts that we have have brand new episodes.
00:16:03
Yeah. So, we'll read them to you now. of course it's jensen holes murder squad which um the next episode two uh drops monday april 8th
00:16:11
and so make sure you subscribe because it's not going to be on our feed this time right yeah go
00:16:16
join it and subscribe and support and rate and do all those things that you know uh help no
00:16:21
technology you know how to do it also um on do you need a ride with me and chris fairbanks this week
00:16:26
the great martha kelly who plays martha on baskets is our guest steven uh was there for
00:16:32
the recording, we had a really good time driving around Mount Washington. Very randomly. Sure.
00:16:38
Just driving around on the east side of LA. Who hasn't had a good time driving around Mount
00:16:42
Washington? It's pretty, it's pretty great. Martha, a lot of you guys know her from baskets. But before
00:16:47
she was on baskets, she was just a really well known and very well respected stand up comic.
00:16:52
I don't think people understand how hilariously funny she is. And her and Chris are old friends.
00:16:57
And so she really is just the funniest person. She is. Yeah. I love her. Yeah. And then there's a new episode of the Perkast, of course.
00:17:05
Stephen Ray Morris. He just wooed in the corner. And so here's a crossover, you guys.
00:17:12
So this podcast will kill you. Another podcast on our networks. Erin Allman Updike is the guest this week, which is so cool.
00:17:19
We met her and she's such an angel baby. And then last week, I think it was Lisa Hanawalt, who created and animates Chuka and Birdie,
00:17:26
also aka fucking bojack horseman and she's a friend of the podcast as well and it's just a lot
00:17:31
of fun and you talk about cats but it's more than that it is if you don't like cats you'll still like
00:17:36
the podcast there's more there's more to be had yeah what do you fucking want also there's um
00:17:41
season four of the fall line just started so it starts today and of course wrapping it up with the
00:17:48
exactly right network hit podcast uh this podcast will kill you this week hookworms I got so I went hookworms when I got so like I love this shit yes and they have a great Instagram where they they every episode when they whatever the topic is they show vintage like ads
00:18:08
and posters and warnings and all this shit of whatever the fucking insanity is yes and it's
00:18:12
just really entertaining it's great and it was so fun we got to meet Erin Almond Updike she came to
00:18:18
the studio and we all get to stand in the hallway and that's the funniest thing is it this is us
00:18:24
bringing this network together um we haven't gotten all to stand together at any moment and
00:18:29
go oh my god thank you welcome or whatever it was like our first face to face with her we still have
00:18:34
to meet the other erin she's in finland we're steven where are erins yeah she's in finland but
00:18:41
it was just so exciting because it's like to us it's all been this conceptual stuff we've been
00:18:45
working on for two years and all of a sudden now we're all standing in the hallway giggling about
00:18:49
the fact that it's really happening it's really exciting and meanwhile i'm in a three-piece suit
00:18:53
what do people wear to offices? Yeah, totally. Tweed suits. Hard shoes. There's a cane. Dockers.
00:19:01
There's Dockers everywhere in this office. Definitely. Boat shoes. Boats. The cool thing is
00:19:07
if you have a podcast on this network, we give you a super yacht. Which I think is more than fair.
00:19:13
That's right, but that's actually the nickname for a disease that next season this podcast will kill you is going to cover.
00:19:19
Super yacht. Have you ever had super yacht? You haven't been inoculated for the super yacht?
00:19:22
Oh, shoot. You're going to need some Neosporin. Get your ass to Walgreens. Go stand in Walgreens.
00:19:29
All uncomfortable. What else? I don't know if it's been. You know what we haven't talked about?
00:19:35
And just can we please skip? Our discussion timeline is so off because we've been on the road for so long.
00:19:43
I just need to have a three-minute moment for the Madeline McCann series on Netflix.
00:19:49
All the series we haven't talked about. I know. Endless series. endless series but that's the one that is because I don't I haven't been watching a ton of them
00:19:57
lately yeah um so there have been a couple conversations where I'm just silently smiling
00:20:01
while everyone else does it because I'm not going to say I want to watch it eventually yeah but I
00:20:06
have to pace it out um for myself Madeline McCann though oh shit if you haven't watched it I highly
00:20:12
recommend it what okay I got a little into it and was like where is this going and it made me really
00:20:21
sad. Yes. It's only bad. It doesn't, you don't get out of that. Nope. No. They don't
00:20:27
buy. It keeps going down and down and down and then you're like, well, this is the worst that could happen to these people.
00:20:33
But it is absolutely not the worst. It's terrible and horrifying. Yes. And it's a thing you need
00:20:39
to know and it's really well done. Yes. I did really enjoy watching it. I watched
00:20:43
a lot of it and then just finished it. It's very compelling, but I think after a while
00:20:47
it like you get worn down by the reality of it. I mean, there's at one point, I'll just say this as a spoiler, like in like year three, they realized just no
00:20:58
one had been looking for her at all for three years. There's things like that where you just,
00:21:02
you think you know what this case is. I think I know what the case is. I had a completely different opinion when I went in and even not finishing the series, I,
00:21:10
you know, I'm heartbroken for her parents. And it's just, it's just, I think I got really sick
00:21:15
of listening to that one detective lie. The Portuguese cop? Yeah, I got sick of the Portuguese cop
00:21:23
being able to say whatever the fuck he wanted on. Like, I didn't like him to a point that made it too hard. Does he
00:21:29
die? Kara just made me Kara just made a face in me that was so like, I know what it was. It was
00:21:37
waiting. You see what happens, right? Well, but does he die? I mean, we're all going to die.
00:21:45
And I didn't mean to sound so excited about someone's death. It was, this again is a spoiler and I'll only say it to you.
00:21:53
And then, I don't know, we can do it. Well, we will. I just wish I could see the face you made of me.
00:21:57
It was like a, it was a, well, I have a secret and I'm from the South. I'm like this.
00:22:02
Cause I'm like, well, you didn't watch it, did you? Well, now I'm going to tell you.
00:22:06
Her finger on her chin. Like, well, I'll just wait for you to be stupid. my enjoyment of my enjoyment of you not knowing isn't because i'm not enjoying you being stupid
00:22:20
it's we all have that but but it's almost like that thing where somebody is watching something
00:22:25
like i can't take it anymore and you turn it off right before the grate and you're like wait
00:22:29
till you fucking see it but let me just tell you he makes a movie about his side of the story oh i
00:22:35
no did you watch that part no i only got to the book i dip back in simply for the film that they
00:22:41
released on portuguese television that is the most bizarre propaganda weird thing you've ever
00:22:49
seen i'm gonna dip my bandaged toe yes into that water yeah even though i was told not to put in
00:22:55
water. You just made the face to me again. Oh, you didn't hear? That's like gossip. Okay. It's
00:23:05
almost like these days. That's yeah, it's this that story. I can't believe it. I really it is.
00:23:11
I love that it's out because I definitely was like, I think when you told me to have you watch
00:23:15
that I was like, well, the parents did it, right? And then you watch like, how could I have thought
00:23:19
that? And it's like, this is it's because the media told you exactly because the tabloid media
00:23:24
is evil evil yeah crazy yeah and they justify anything they'll do anything to sell a paper
00:23:31
including like you know including the things that they did to the mccanns it's just insane totally
00:23:37
and we have to watch the mommy dead and dearest fucking play screenplay patty arquette yes i have
00:23:46
to see that i haven't seen that yet i actually was so excited and started watching it with vince
00:23:50
And he was like, I can't do this. Like, watch it alone. Murdering us. Yes, probably.
00:23:55
Munch houses by proxy is so specifically awful. It's just... It's dark. Yeah. And I was like, well, I'm not going to.
00:24:03
No, I won't watch it. But, dude, I can't wait. But it's not for people who are not.
00:24:07
And I was like, what? This isn't anything. We can watch this. And he couldn't deal with it.
00:24:11
No. No, no. It's because it's kids. I know. It's kids. I know. It's terrible. But God bless Patti Arquette.
00:24:19
What a talented actress who's persevering. Despite the fact that she has Munchausen.
00:24:25
No, we're not spreading that. This isn't a documentary about Patty Arquette's Munch Houses by Proxy.
00:24:31
Stop spreading that rumor. That's ludicrous. And the idea that even that you gossip at all is sad.
00:24:36
Truly. What is wrong with you? We like to berate listeners and just get them in line a little bit.
00:24:46
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Learn more at brex.com slash AF. I would swear that I'm first. Is that right? Yes.
00:26:34
Oh, it must feel great. Well, this is also, I feel like, the first time we've done two in a row in the studio in like four years.
00:26:40
Two in a row, and we've been home for more than three days. Yeah. I feel like I'm living my life.
00:26:44
I'm getting MRIs. I had one dinner with a friend. I'm just like, you're out and about.
00:26:49
Look at me doing things like a normal human being. I am. I have reached a level of cuddling with my dogs.
00:26:58
That is, I feel like my dog, George, is having a real emotional impact from me being gone so much.
00:27:05
I am. Because she gets up into the bed and then cut and snuggles up onto my shoulder.
00:27:10
Where I'm like, we're here. Like, I can't, you can't get closer to me. And she wants to be like, I want, if you leave, I want to feel it.
00:27:16
I want to know. Yeah. It's very sad. Also, she's the size of a small horse. So it's not like normal cuddling with pets.
00:27:23
It's like, oh, look, the horse is here. The needy, emotionally needy horse is here.
00:27:30
You're her emotional support. Karen. That's right. Oh, God. I wear a little blue vest when she's around.
00:27:37
Aw. You're okay, George. And she's like, you can touch her. It's okay. To strangers who are like, what kind of dog are you?
00:27:45
What kind of dog are you? that's sad and sweet. It's very sad. We're leaving this weekend.
00:27:51
Yeah. But I'm going to take them to the old dog camp so they never know because it has water
00:27:57
and pools and stuff like that. I mean, take me there for a fucking weekend. Okay.
00:28:01
Please. Take me there, please. Well, I'm first. Great. So here we go. Okay. Karen.
00:28:07
Yes? some fucked up shit. You know I love Yeah, you do. Shit that goes all the way
00:28:11
to the gym. Right? I always say. Oh, are you going to tear down some major established...
00:28:18
Maybe. Yeah. This is the mysterious death of Karen Silkwood. Yes! Why haven't either of us done this?
00:28:26
Or thought of it at all. Did you watch the movie? Yes, I will get to that. Okay, sorry.
00:28:32
I tried... Yes, I've seen the movie. I tried to watch it again. It's available nowhere.
00:28:37
Right. Really surprisingly, except on YouTube, of course. And it's available on YouTube
00:28:43
in the left-hand corner of the screen. Perfect. And the rest of it is someone's screensaver space.
00:28:52
Yes. Like literally outer space coming at you. That's how the director wanted it to be seen.
00:28:58
The original intent was that it was going to be shot and presented that way. You can't understand all the words.
00:29:03
No, why would you? But you did the gist. Yeah. So I did my best and I watched a lot of it.
00:29:08
Great. but if you're I bet you anything your fucking dad has a vhs copy of it if he does I'm telling you
00:29:15
that you're getting the combination of a fresh 80s Cher oh and then Meryl Streep at the height
00:29:21
of her shit she is so fucking good in this movie and Cher is amazing yeah as we all know everybody's
00:29:29
everybody's got a hairstyle in that movie that I go like I need that hair that is the hair that
00:29:34
would make me seem just generally appealing. I could see Cher's hair on you, like a big curly
00:29:39
long thing. It's what I've always wanted. You need that. But Cher has the perfect face for it
00:29:45
because she has like a long, dramatic, you know, very beautiful face. Like it doesn't hide behind
00:29:49
her hair. Right. I have a Campbell's Soup Kid face. So when I have dramatic hair like that,
00:29:54
it looks like I put my mom wig on and I running around the living room Maybe you need to get a cut out of a Campbell Soup can and wear it as a like around her Like you know like a sandwich board
00:30:05
Maybe you need that. And I could just make a little bit more money from the Campbell's Soup people.
00:30:10
Who's that? She's so beautiful. Oh, my God. She loves soup. And I mean beautiful like the way a weird baby is beautiful.
00:30:18
She's soup and she's beautiful. She's super. She's super beautiful. Shit. Okay. I've had a can of wine.
00:30:27
All right. Me too. No, not really. Did you eat that bug I killed? Okay. Karen. Webster's Dictionary defines the word whistleblower as one who reveals something covert or who
00:30:43
informs against another. Wow. This is serious. And a martyr as a person who sacrifices something of great value for the sake of principle.
00:30:53
Essentially, you and me. story of our lives can we stop being that i just like that you just started off your murder this
00:31:01
week the exact way everybody started off their dramatic speech like presentations in high school
00:31:08
where it's like webster's dictionary defines a friend as i was thinking more along the lines of
00:31:14
a really bad uh best man speech yes like all of those things combined i did that and there it was
00:31:20
you did it and you did it great i thought you were going to go webster's dictionary defines a
00:31:24
whistleblower as i can't whistle so i couldn't do that wait woo fuck i missed an opportunity
00:31:33
sorry you were right let's edit that together this is why you're the fucking script writer
00:31:40
yeah um let's okay so karen silkwood has been described as both those things by her supporters
00:31:45
as well as a fucking crazy person by those who wanted to bring her down the man that's right
00:31:50
let's get into it okay karen gay silkwood was born february 19th 1946 she grew up in niederland
00:31:56
texas which is about 100 miles from houston i forgot to tell you all the places that i got a
00:32:01
lot of good information from cool um romero institute.org there's this great podcast called
00:32:07
the knower dispatch by lucas stroh who does uh just texas mysteries and murders and shit oh nice
00:32:14
yeah and a bunch of time magazine articles and pbs are like everyone knows everything about this
00:32:19
thing already. And they're way smarter than I am. But here we go. I took a little from everyone.
00:32:24
It's I mean, it's a story that's been around for a long time. Yeah. Yeah. So so Karen Silkwood,
00:32:29
she and I didn't know this about her. She was super fucking smart in high school. She got
00:32:33
straight A's and she was really into chemistry, which I didn't realize I thought she just got a
00:32:38
job at a plant. But no, she was really smart. After graduation, she got a full scholarship to study
00:32:44
medical technology at Lamar, which is in the early 70s. And women didn't get this fucking
00:32:49
like opportunity as much right right i mean i would assume sure i think she was the only
00:32:54
something like that she was the only female on her in her science class or you know that's not right
00:33:00
so she uh but during her first year of school she accidentally falls in love with a dude
00:33:06
i mean i that's how it feels to me okay and drops out of school to elope and have three children
00:33:13
Sure. You know, the old trope. Sure. Love, the old trope love. So gross. In 1972, they have a they're having fallouts and shit. He's cheating on her and she and her husband separate. And part of the terms of their separation is that he gets full custody of the children, which I'm sure there's some crazy story that is not told that we don't understand. So she leaves the family. She visits the kids often, but they're really young kids at that point.
00:33:43
It sucks. Yeah, it really sucks. It's like you want to think of her as this like, but that sucks.
00:33:48
But what can you do? You don't know the circumstances. Yes. So she leaves her children behind and she moves to Oklahoma City and she finds a job in nearby Crescent, Oklahoma at the Keir McGee plant.
00:34:00
And Keir McGee is a powerful energy-based conglomerate, one of the bigwigs, and a bigwig in Oklahoma's nuclear power industry, which I guess is a big fucking scene.
00:34:11
Okay. I mean, I didn't know that. Is it still to this day? I doubt it. Maybe. I'm going to stop asking questions.
00:34:19
I don't know why I keep doing that. I think that whole area in that part of Texas, as far as the nowhere dispatch tells me, is
00:34:25
that that is a big fucking industry for oil and for power and energy. Like, yes, there's probably a lot of rich people there.
00:34:32
A hundred. I bet that's very true. Yeah. A lot of people working for them. Yeah.
00:34:36
And all like it's the energy, it's oil industry. but then like that money begets alternative energies.
00:34:43
Totally. You know, from growing up, all anyone was ever trying to figure out is how to basically harness nuclear fission.
00:34:52
Why am I trying to talk about this? I mean, I want to hear your opinion about this
00:34:56
and I want to hear your thoughts on Silkwood, the movie, because I, you know, I didn't watch the whole thing,
00:35:00
but I still want your opinion on this because you remember this shit. It just feels like that's,
00:35:05
it was really the direction where people are like, you know, better living through chemistry,
00:35:08
but it's a it's an area where that it can't really be controlled the way people say and it became
00:35:13
scary at some point like in the 50s you see all the nuclear technology and people really gung-ho
00:35:18
on it but this is the time when it started to kind of not be so popular right okay so uh so
00:35:25
she gets a job um and she's stoked to get back into her passion of science after having stayed
00:35:32
home to raise kids and shit and she gets a job as a metallography technician at the plutonium plant
00:35:37
and she essentially helps make plutonium fuel rods for nuclear reactors wow just makes me think of
00:35:44
the opening credits of the simpsons yes that's all i know about when the fuel rod just bounces away
00:35:49
yes exactly yeah i mean it's i feel like the simpsons probably stole some of this off of
00:35:54
you know i think the simpsons is entirely based on silkwood and they just don they won acknowledge it Marge is Karen Silkwood They won acknowledge it Oh my God Okay so her duties there include polishing fuel rods packed with radioactive plutonium pellets
00:36:09
Fun. Yeah. Of course, we know plutonium is one of the world's most deadly poisons.
00:36:14
I'm sure the girls at this podcast will kill you, can tell you all about it. Yes.
00:36:17
It's highly radioactive, and Kieramaki had gone out of its way to downplay the dangers of it, of course,
00:36:24
in their like employee handbooks and shit. It's health manual saying in capital letters.
00:36:29
You ready for our new shirt? Yeah. Radiation is safe. No. That's our new shirt. Oh, that's good.
00:36:36
Radiation is safe. Yeah. But all caps. Yeah. Screaming it. Diagonal. And then with some like kind of lightning bolt things coming from the side.
00:36:45
And it's coming out like a shooting star. And underneath it says, don't worry about it.
00:36:49
Real small. Yeah. We got you. Yeah. We got you. Radiation is safe. Okay. So, and this is true if the metal only comes in contact outside the body.
00:37:00
So, it's kind of true. They were kind of lying. But once it enters the body through the nose or mouth, there's this barrage of these subatomic like bullets into soft tissue that wreaks havoc on your body.
00:37:14
And a dust-sized speck of plutonium is widely thought to be able to cause cancer if caught in the lung.
00:37:21
Like, that's all it takes. Dust-sized. Yeah. Shit. Right. not good so while at the plant uh karen silkwood joins the oil chemical and atomic workers union
00:37:30
which in the 70s the unions were fucking hip as shit right well they were very necessary right oh
00:37:36
yeah definitely yeah there was a lot of workers because also when you first started talking about
00:37:40
this i was like wait this is not norma ray this is a different movie than normal ray because the
00:37:45
same era like norma ray was slightly earlier and that was basically about unionization but
00:37:50
both great movies same feel powerful women getting it done in real life yes um so she uh she joins
00:37:58
this union which is you're right very necessary there's a strike not long after she joins um the
00:38:04
strike fails which led to a bunch of the workers there leaving the union but karen stayed and uh
00:38:11
part of the reason is because she was elected to the bargaining committee of the union which was
00:38:15
the she was the first fucking woman to be uh in this position which is huge which i'm sure
00:38:21
made her not want to quit the union even if she's mad at them for you know not whatever
00:38:26
um so as this uh bargaining committee member she's charged with investigating health and safety
00:38:33
issues at the plant and as she did she began to find some red flags she sees spills false
00:38:39
of inspection records, inadequate training, health regulation violations, and enough missing plutonium
00:38:47
to make multiple nuclear weapons. Jesus Christ. Where did it go? You buried the lead.
00:38:53
Yeah. But also, people aren't putting the container back on their cottage cheese in the refrigerator,
00:38:59
which there's spores. I mean, can we please clean up after ourselves? She's missing plutonium.
00:39:05
Your mother doesn't work here. What if it said that over the plutonium? your mother doesn't work here put it back put it back um so in the summer of 1974
00:39:15
karen silkwood testifies to the atomic energy commission in washington dc which is a big
00:39:20
fucking deal and i'm sure they didn't get a lot of women doing that about all the findings she
00:39:24
finds at cure uh mcgee so at this point it's possible she's pissed off a few different groups
00:39:29
of people yes okay so there's the people who had our the people who are workers there who had left
00:39:35
the union and saw that she stayed and she was a scab and that pissed them off right them the
00:39:41
company itself care mcgee who was like keep your fucking mouth shut um and they were pissed off
00:39:46
and also the workers who were worried that all these proposed government checks that she was
00:39:51
trying to get into place would make the plant close down and leave them without a job right
00:39:55
so that she you know she riled shit up and uh also dudes who didn't like women in power i mean
00:40:01
simple as fucking that sure well and i think there's that thing of um there's that's the
00:40:07
problem with like if there if there was issues with the union and then all those workers left
00:40:13
um but she stayed because basically she's like but this has to get solved because this is going
00:40:18
to like you have to solve it at some point because the option can't be no more union when it's still
00:40:25
the workers with you know trying to deal with the company yeah and we need the union to get to the
00:40:30
bigger picture even if we're not thrilled with the union and the the workers left the union they
00:40:35
didn't leave their jobs right they still work there with her oh okay so she's still in the union they
00:40:40
leave the union they leave the union okay got it they stay with the jobs yeah so she's got enemies
00:40:44
fucking everywhere it seems that way and she's right which is the worst fucking feeling so that's
00:40:49
part of this whole mystery of her death so on november 5th 1974 she does a routine check which
00:40:56
you see in the movie you just have to kind of like put your hand over um you know some kind of
00:41:01
scanner and it beeps and fucking goes crazy if you have plutonium you don't want it to happen
00:41:06
it happens to her so she discovers she has been exposed to over 400 times the legal limit of
00:41:12
plutonium so some people think that it was done purposely as a retaliation by one of those groups
00:41:19
that's like one of the things she would expose herself to 400 times plutonium radiation that
00:41:24
one of the workers like put it in her gloves that they initially want to have like they purposely
00:41:29
made her get a plutonium poisoning yes yeah so that's one of the theories um karen herself thought
00:41:36
it was a deliberate act by those in power at kirk mcgee which is another option and of course it
00:41:42
very well could have been because one of the many safety issues that were going on at the plant
00:41:47
But because at Kiermagee, there were issues between 1970 and 1975. There were guess how many reported exposures to plutonium there were between five years Let see If there was five a year that would be bad And that 25
00:42:05
574. No! God! Uh-uh. Uh-uh. So it just was a constant. So if you worked at this power plant, you would probably die of radiation, essentially.
00:42:19
Or get some kind of a cancer. Yeah. And of course, then you have their doctor saying that that's the legal, that's less than the legal amount that you're like allowed to be exposed to.
00:42:29
It won't cause cancer. You'll be fine. You know, that kind of debate going on. This is a real Erin Brockovich situation.
00:42:36
100%. Where it's just like PG and going, it's okay that your poison is being leached into your groundwater.
00:42:43
Well, it's the thing of like, and this is not the same, but like with peanut butter, you can have 0.5% insect parts in it.
00:42:50
And you're like, well, I don't want any insect parts. And that's like, well, don't eat peanut butter then.
00:42:55
Yes. I don't, you know. Right, exactly. But it's almost like the company is saying, look, we're all going to get poisoned by plutonium.
00:43:02
Let's grow up. Here's how my, you only had a little. Yes. Fuck up, motherfucker.
00:43:07
Yeah. But it's that thing. And I'm sorry to equate it, but I do love the movie Aaron Brockovich.
00:43:12
But when they sit down to negotiate with the PG&E lawyers, and they're fighting back and forth.
00:43:18
and then one of the lawyers takes a sip of water and she goes, oh, we had that brought in from Hanford or Lamar or wherever they were in Central California.
00:43:26
And they like freeze. It's those motherfuckers who would never take the treatment that they are insisting other people live with.
00:43:33
They would never let their kids drink Flint fucking Michigan water. No way. But they're saying it's fine.
00:43:39
You're fine. Take a shower in that. You're fine. And we don't owe you clean water, too.
00:43:43
Yeah. Meanwhile. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Yes. Here we go. Here we go. So and here's where I need you to explain a little bit about Silkwood
00:43:55
showers. Not like, you know, I think that you'll word it very well, because I didn't do it well.
00:44:02
But Silkwood showers have been like a joke, like, I need to go home and take a Silkwood shower to
00:44:06
bring that bar because I stink or like, oh, that guy talked to me, I need a Silkwood shower. It's
00:44:10
like a joke. But it actually means something. It's a decontamination shower. So when she put
00:44:17
her hand over that fucking alarm thing and the alarms go off they grab her and in the movie drag
00:44:23
her to the decontamination showers yeah which are humiliating and awful and you get stripped down and
00:44:29
you get held in place and scrubbed with a fucking like wire brush and they say to you don't cry it'll
00:44:36
make it hurt worse because you're the tears the salt of your tears get into the raw skin and it
00:44:42
hurts worse. Jesus Christ. Yes. Yeah, I didn't know that part. I didn't know the part about the
00:44:50
wire. That seems I might have I might be embellishing on the wire, but it looks like a wire.
00:44:55
It looks like a wire brush in the movie. Yeah, I mean, either way, even if it's the softest brush
00:45:00
in the world, to have like three adults brushing you as you're as they're trying to get contamination
00:45:05
off you is horrifying. And it seems like that's set up in a way where it doesn't need to be that
00:45:10
humiliating but some Pervo set it up where that's the way it turned out you're being treated like I hate to say
00:45:16
cattle because I think they should be treated better but that's essentially and then the movie
00:45:20
I remember the movie what was that Angelina Jolie movie that was so good god there's been so many
00:45:28
there was the one where her child goes missing and she yells changeling and she gets put in an insane asylum
00:45:34
and they wash her like that do you remember that? one of the washers is Ricky Lindholm
00:45:39
is really yeah from garfunkel notes fun fact everyone that's amazing i remember watching it
00:45:46
like ricky lindholm what are you doing ricky um there was there's also a movie that beau derek
00:45:51
starred in it was tarzan uh from i believe 1980 and it it was post uh after she was in the movie
00:45:59
10 with deadly moore and she became this humongous sex symbol of the very early 80s or late 70s
00:46:05
with her island braids. Her culturally inappropriate braids. Yes. Back in 77 when everyone,
00:46:14
it was more of a celebrated thing to exploit other cultures. But she then was in this movie,
00:46:20
I think it was called Tarzan. I think there was more to that name. But she is the daughter of the scientist
00:46:28
that's going to find the ape man in the jungle. And she gets caught by natives and they wash her against her will.
00:46:37
And it's very erotic. This is so sexy. It's very like Cinemax after dark type of shit
00:46:42
of me and my cousin Nancy sitting up and going, what's this? Like, this is just the movie.
00:46:45
We're allowed to watch this. I know. It's not our fault that Tarzan turned dirty.
00:46:48
But literally, she's being washed. It's super weird. And like, it's very uncomfortable.
00:46:53
And she's like kind of whining. And at one point, she goes, they're washing me like a horse.
00:47:00
You should be so lucky. But it's the same thing. but it's more of the um a sexy version of it there's got to be some fucking weirdo who made
00:47:09
like a two-minute clip of shot women being showered in movies that's just so unpleasant yes
00:47:15
in the background there's the um outer space screensavers you can see them all on youtube
00:47:22
right now if you know what to look at there's a scene like that that's also in i think it's one
00:47:27
of those um flowers in the attic style movies where someone gets washed yeah i feel like moms
00:47:33
do it a lot to their daughters in the dc andrew series yeah you're unclean bleach bath it's like
00:47:41
no no don't do that uh anyway anyway hot invasive showers disinfect and decontaminate etc
00:47:50
um okay so she's sent home and they're like collect your shit and your piss and we're
00:48:00
How humiliating is that? All of it. It's like a further humiliation a little bit.
00:48:04
So she checks into work one morning shortly after this, and they test her and she registers high radiation levels again.
00:48:13
But then she was like, check my fucking car and check, you know, and check my locker.
00:48:17
And there was no radiation there. So there's something going on where she was getting it there.
00:48:21
And so Kira McGee dispatches a decontamination squad to her house to test her house.
00:48:27
and they detect levels of plutonium in the bathroom, in the kitchen. And she says when she was trying to get her urine sample,
00:48:34
she spilled and that's why it was there. And they find it in food, in the refrigerator.
00:48:39
The word bologna happens a lot. A lot of bologna talk? A lot of bologna talk. I don't want to go there.
00:48:45
Just deli meats at all or bologna specific? Specifically bologna, which is my least favorite deli meat.
00:48:51
It's pretty gross. It's in my refrigerator right now because I married a Michigan guy.
00:48:55
Oh, that's right. Does he like a fried bologna sandwich? Oh, he sure does. And listen, he's not wrong.
00:48:59
Look. Look and listen. I had a bologna and cheese sandwich every day for like three years in grammar school.
00:49:05
Do you hate it now? I just don't even think about it. Yeah. Like hot dogs. I don't think about it.
00:49:10
I don't think about hot dogs. Do you? Oh, I can do hot dogs at any moment. Corn dogs?
00:49:14
Stop it right now. No, I know you love a mini corn dog. When we go to like a gastropub somewhere in St. Louis or whatever, and they have mini
00:49:22
corn dogs, it's just like ding, ding, ding. It's Georgia's birthday. Gastropubs are fine, but I like a fucking dirty ass bowling alley, full size corn dog.
00:49:29
A real deal corn dog. Just as much. Yeah. I don't need no fucking dipping aioli or whatever.
00:49:35
You know? I don't need your fucking dipping aioli. Keep your aioli to yourself, pervert.
00:49:41
Okay. But her house is fucking ransacked while they do it. Like, and it seems in a way that's like a warning.
00:49:49
It could be seen as a warning too. Like, you know, everything's taken. Pictures of her children are taken.
00:49:54
Like, because there's plutonium in there, but it's also like, you know, this is what happens to you.
00:50:00
Maybe. Could be. One could read it that way. It's certainly not a friendly search.
00:50:04
No. Okay. That's right. So on November 7th, plutonium contamination is found in her lungs.
00:50:10
And she's sent to the Los Alamos National Laboratory in New Mexico for further testing.
00:50:15
And then she gets back. So that was November 7th. She gets back and it's November 13th.
00:50:20
And she's like, she's at her wit's end. And she's like, fuck this shit. I'm going public.
00:50:24
with all the information I have that I found when I was doing my kind of covert checks.
00:50:29
She'd gathered enough evidence documenting the plant's wrongdoing, and it contained documents proving that the Kier-McGee Nuclear Corporation was,
00:50:36
A, missing 40 pounds of 98% pure bomb-grade plutonium. Let's find that bomb-grade!
00:50:42
You want that listed first, apparently. I'm going to start describing things as bomb-grade.
00:50:47
That's right. This is a fucking bomb-grade corndog, if I could say so myself. Yes.
00:50:54
did I already say that that was enough to make four atomic bombs as powerful as the one that destroyed Hiroshima
00:51:00
did I say did I copy and paste I don't think you read that particular copy and paste it's that's a powerful
00:51:06
full piece of information that's right so that's what's missing that alone shouldn't get you like
00:51:12
beaten up or your pictures broken or whatever that should be like thanks so much
00:51:16
let's go find it yeah let's fix this it's a little problematic so that night that evening she goes to a
00:51:22
meeting uh for the union and then uh in the evening she is seen leaving it's november 13th
00:51:30
1974 she's fucking 28 years old oh my god which can you imagine like being such a i mean i guess
00:51:36
when you're in your 20s you're ballsy as fuck but like that is brave this is a woman going up against
00:51:41
everybody yeah basically everybody exactly tough um so she is on her way to a meeting in oklahoma
00:51:49
city. She's going to meet the national union representative of her of the unions, obviously,
00:51:55
and a New York Times reporter. And, and the last person who saw her walking to her car said they
00:52:01
saw her with a folder full of documents and photos that she said was going to fucking prove her case.
00:52:08
Yes, right. As she drove to that meeting on a dark stretch of road, Karen's car goes off the
00:52:14
road at a speed of about 45 miles per hour it strikes a culvert and it kills her breaks breaks
00:52:22
her cut well sorry sorry no no no that's a great question is that a question or is that it's a
00:52:28
guess okay well oklahoma state troopers show up they surmise that she had fallen asleep at the
00:52:32
wheel because she did have quaaludes in there and it did seem like that she had gotten a prescription
00:52:38
because she was stressed the fuck out yes i need some fucking quaaludes yeah i mean truly either a
00:52:43
prescription are from the back of rolling stone magazine but you get me some of those downers well
00:52:47
she went yeah she went straight to her doctor she's got no shame yeah so they uh and then the
00:52:52
drug test in her autopsy did show quaaludes in her bloodstream and a small amount of alcohol which i
00:52:57
mean like who among us at this very moment no i would never we're on lewds everybody that's right
00:53:03
and so that essentially for the authorities closes the case that it was a single driver accident she
00:53:09
fell asleep while she was driving drove off the road okay however her family and her supporters
00:53:14
are like there are break marks remember you're like there aren't yeah break marks yes there
00:53:20
were break marks she skidded for like something was there yes yeah so how do you fall asleep and
00:53:25
then skid i mean it's possible but um but i bet you that's not how it happens right because if
00:53:32
you're asleep you're asleep until you crash usually right yeah or you can wake up and try to
00:53:37
right the car and overcorrect and shit. Yeah. But you know, they, their theory was that she was asleep the whole time and just went off the
00:53:45
culvert. So that doesn't, it still doesn't add up. Um, and they're also, and this is more telling for me,
00:53:49
there are dents and paint scrapes in her, on her rear bumper. Yes. That of course leads everyone to believe that she was deliberately forced off the road by a trailing vehicle And I think that this is a similar scenario to the China syndrome that came out late a little bit later Was that
00:54:05
also a true story? I don't know. But I think they took parts of that and made it real. Oh,
00:54:10
I'm not a filmmaker. Wait a second. You told me that you may be tea. That's why I got into this whole fucking thing. Oh, shit. The filmmaking aspect.
00:54:25
Most suspicious is that the fucking documents were never found. Yeah. Yeah. Never, ever found.
00:54:33
That's not, Quaaludes don't make documents disappear, everybody. They sure don't.
00:54:37
No. They don't fly out of the car and no one finds them. Yeah, usually, especially if you go into a culvert, that's when documents go all around the culvert.
00:54:43
Everywhere. Yeah. So maybe they did and someone grabbed them and fucking gave them to the right person.
00:54:48
Yeah. So that is highly suspicious to me. And of course, investigative reporters pick up on this crazy story.
00:54:55
and there's a series of newspaper and magazine articles about the events leading up to her death
00:55:00
and everyone at this point is kind of turning on nuclear power and energy and and seeing how
00:55:05
dangerous it is and also seeing how few um checks and balances there are because they're making a
00:55:12
shit ton of money off of them and the government's stoked on that yes so um the case is embraced by
00:55:17
environmentalists nuclear energy foes feminists as well and civil libertarians so everyone's like
00:55:23
this is shady yeah great so because of this publicity there's a nationwide demand for an
00:55:29
investigation and um a couple attorneys file a lawsuit on behalf of karen silkwood's children
00:55:36
and father oh i know um not for wrongful death in her car accident but for willful negligence
00:55:43
leading to her plutonium contamination which like such a sneaky thing to do but that's smart it's
00:55:49
Get them at the source. Yeah, because you couldn't prove the car accident probably, but you can prove this shit.
00:55:54
Right. So lawyers for Keir McGee argued that Karen Silkwood had snuck the plutonium out of the plant and intentionally contaminated it, contaminated herself to make them look negligent.
00:56:04
Nope. So kamikaze style, she's going to make them look negligent by basically committing slow, terrible plutonium poisoning suicide.
00:56:13
And did they have purse checks? Like when you work retail and they check your bag on the way out?
00:56:17
They had to have that. remember those how humiliating those were that's so funny because we used to have those at the gas
00:56:24
or i'd be like my purse is so 90s small i i didn't steal one of your rugby shirts you yeah
00:56:31
and then when you were the manager and you had a purse check other people and you're like i don't
00:56:34
want to do this just steal something yeah people it ours actually it's funny because our all of
00:56:39
our managers were super cool and everyone would just walk out and they just like it was all a
00:56:43
gesture yeah as opposed to like anybody's rifling through your stuff right everyone else put the
00:56:48
pants put the spree shit in the um in the garbage bin back in the alley then go then go out to your
00:56:55
car and then be like i'm dumpster diving exactly for brand new i didn't know that was a thing people
00:57:00
did i never did that not once and how dare you accuse me okay so that was their argument but
00:57:06
then the argument too is like well that makes you look negligent that an employee could just walk
00:57:09
out with like that's kind of a not a good argument right so like either way they look
00:57:21
like they have fucking safety issues yes um and you know if someone else had poisoned her in the
00:57:25
plant that's bad too so they also said that karen was emotionally unstable and her capacities have
00:57:32
been fucked up from tranquilizer use they're trying to like blame it on her she said that
00:57:37
they said they said that she was in in this fucking fight with her union and the company
00:57:42
and that she wanted to prove that the plant was dangerous by any means and that she was a
00:57:46
webster's dictionary definition of martyr yeah right that was their argument which is insane
00:57:52
like what would the point like it's that i the idea that that's even a they're able to present
00:58:00
that as a logical argument yeah when it's like it's just a person trying to say you guys are
00:58:05
lacking and you need to tighten your shit up. And you know, I can understand the like, I'm going to
00:58:10
show them by like maybe a layman who didn't understand the effects of plutonium and how
00:58:15
actually how fucking detrimental it is. Like my sister and I used to break open the mercury
00:58:20
thermometer and play with the mercury. It was super fun. I told my mom that over the weekend,
00:58:25
she lost her shit. Do not have latchkey kids. That is so hilarious, because I remember a
00:58:31
thermometer breaking and my mother who never freaked out about anything she's a nurse yes
00:58:36
but she was like like and i was like not anywhere near touching it or interested in touching a tiny
00:58:42
little silver thing yeah and she it was the screaming of don't touch that and stay away
00:58:47
from that i'll never forget it because it was just like shit she actually gives a shit about
00:58:52
something she's actually emoting toward us mercury worth money or something yeah why is she so worried
00:58:58
I guess now I have to put both hands into it, Mom. I mean, I guess it would explain a lot that I think my sister and I accidentally broke a couple thermometers because the mercury was so, oh, shit.
00:59:11
Can this podcast will kill you, please? Yes. Do an episode about that. What if they're like, and the effects of mercury poisoning are toe tumors and a weird back.
00:59:21
And starting a podcast. That makes no sense. And a love of canned wine. What? That's so specific.
00:59:27
And a cross-eyed Siamese. I didn't even get him until he was a kid. That's crazy.
00:59:32
Okay. So, according to the book, The Killing of Karen Silkwood by Richard Rashke, who's like, this is the book about it.
00:59:41
The family's lawyers, he says they were harassed, they were intimidated, and even physically assaulted.
00:59:47
One person, like, maybe Skip Town was never heard from again. Yeah. And one person quote unquote killed herself before she was scheduled to be a witness like some shady shit Shit Yeah So in the end the jury in the Silkwood versus Kira McGee awarded Silkwood estate million
01:00:07
Oh, shit. And that was in the early 80s, right? Yeah. Like 70... Late 70s? 74. No, 76.
01:00:16
76-ish. 70... Late 70s. That's easily like 50, 80 million dollars. That's how much it is.
01:00:22
Is it really? I don't know. 50, 80 million? 50-80 million. 50-80 million. 50-80 million.
01:00:29
That elusive number. So not only was it the largest settlement in the history of American fucking judicial system.
01:00:35
Yeah, it was. The case established new precedent in liability law. Our friend from the hot coffee McDonald's story that we all fucking hate.
01:00:45
I mean, I don't hate. It sucks. It's the story. It's amazing. Yeah. So, see, up until that time, there was a thing called the Price-Anderson Act,
01:00:53
which puts limits on civil liability pertaining to nuclear facilities. Sure there was.
01:00:58
Yep. There's a cap on how much you can sue for us ruining your fucking life and your family.
01:01:02
God, that's weird. I wonder how a cap, like a governmental cap, would get built into the law.
01:01:08
So weird. And you would think that if something was so safe that you trusted it completely,
01:01:12
you wouldn't need that because you trusted enough not to go wrong. And you'd think that the people that work in your government
01:01:17
care enough about the citizens of its own country to not intentionally cover the ass of people who run things like nuclear power plants or maybe even
01:01:27
banks. That's like literally. No, I love it. I love that we're on the same page because like
01:01:32
literally my last sentence and when I was or my last paragraph and when I was writing it at home,
01:01:37
Vince was home and I was like, yeah, you motherfucker. Like I was yelling shit. Okay.
01:01:41
Yes, we're gonna get there. Yep. Okay. So then there was the Oh, so this case removed
01:01:49
the limits yay and pretty much ended construction of all nuclear power plants in the united states
01:01:55
yeah great we don't want them on appeal the amounts reduced to five grand oh my god but then
01:02:02
um they said they'll only cover the the um destruction of karen's personal belongings
01:02:08
during the decontamination of her apartment they're like we'll get you a new couch and shit
01:02:12
that's all and like they agreed but then that's over to the supreme court reverses that yeah they
01:02:17
do yeah they do um and it was headed to retrial when mckier when kirk mcgee settled out of court
01:02:22
for 1.38 million so but they admitted no wrongdoing as part of the settlement and but either way the
01:02:29
plant is closed in 1976 14 months after karen silkwood's death wow because of oversight shit
01:02:35
so now okay so now the general public has already been fucking starting to be anti-nuclear plants
01:02:42
this makes it even worse of course and then march 28th 1979 meltdown and radiation leak of the a
01:02:50
reactor at the three mile island yeah do you remember that yeah i do i feel like there's so
01:02:55
many like it's from this time period of like i can hear three mile island or chernobyl or you know
01:03:00
silkwood and get like this is like creeps even though i don't remember the details it's like
01:03:05
this is something very fucking bad yeah because you know well for me um it being like uh you know
01:03:12
eight or nine when that happened. It's back when there was only network television news,
01:03:18
network news, national news. And it was on like at seven. And then you watched it then and
01:03:23
everybody watched the same shit. So when Three Mile Island melted down, we all sat there watching
01:03:29
there's just a helicopter shot of over Three Mile Island and them just talking about how
01:03:34
we don't know what how we're going to contain it. We don't know if it's going to go into the water
01:03:38
supply like this entire thing where everyone was frozen in this realization that this had gone out
01:03:44
way too far past anyone's control right and again it's that feeling like you can't trust the people
01:03:50
that are making these decisions because they're going to pick a monetary gain over safety every
01:03:55
fucking time and that's why all those i think all those like eco that's how the greenpeace eco um
01:04:02
like warriors came about because they were like these people won't be stopped they're right they're
01:04:07
truly sociopaths and they're not going to be affected by it you the people have no decision
01:04:11
over whether it happens or not are going to be the ones whose children have to drink that water
01:04:14
yes who have to breathe that i mean everyone has to breathe that air but you know yeah and it's
01:04:19
it's similar to like flint michigan where it's like they will they will poison all of us for
01:04:25
eleven dollars and another yacht they will fucking do anything for money these people that are in
01:04:30
charge that rise to the top because sociopaths rise to the top fucking maniacs and you think
01:04:35
they're going to stop and be like, well, I don't need that extra 15 cents on the dollar.
01:04:38
So let's just let's make them good water. Yeah, they're not going to do that. They're never going to do that.
01:04:43
Right. No. Okay. So that happened. Three Mile Island happens in 1983. The Academy Award nominated movie Silkwood starring Meryl Streep.
01:04:54
Cher, Kurt Russell sheds more light on Karen Silkwood's suspicious death and the issues
01:05:00
with the nuclear power industry. And as a result, Karen Silkwood story, it kind of opens the public's eye to all of the shit going on.
01:05:07
Yeah. And in the years since that happened, she's become a martyr for unionists, whistleblowers and those opposed to nuclear power.
01:05:16
And while it's no doubt that it's like not a question she had been exposed to plutonium, there are still questions of, you know, people still say, did she deliberately contaminate herself?
01:05:27
Did she come into contact with it because of lacking safety standards at the plant?
01:05:30
or if her death is a deliberate act by the all-powerful nuclear industry that had been enjoying the lax rules imposed on it by a government
01:05:37
whose main concern wasn't the safety of its citizens but of the military-industrial-congressional complex
01:05:43
and the few elite-wealthy Illuminati I don't know where I was going. I was tired.
01:05:47
Who unbeknownst to plebes like us have sole influence on public policy. We can fucking vote all we want.
01:05:54
It those lobbyists Yeah no I mean this is everything that I think is coming to to a head right now in our culture is basically what Donald Trump represents is that unchecked megalomaniac maniac and sociopathic greed greed greed greed above all money above all
01:06:18
and in a way where it's like that idea of like why would you why would you fight to keep a thing
01:06:26
that's killing all these people so that you can buy another boat when you won't be able to sail
01:06:31
anywhere because everything's going to be dead yeah but they think it's going to happen anyway
01:06:35
so they want to be safe and they don't want to share any of it i mean and then you see shit like
01:06:39
my mom and i who don't get along and i we scream at each other because we have differing views
01:06:43
of whether or not Donald Trump should be fucking president. But it's like, they want us, please, to yell at each other about it.
01:06:50
Because then we won't spend time looking at the bigger picture, which is that we're fucking puppets.
01:06:54
Yes. And this is this greedy fucking, you know, both sides are these greedy megalomaniacs.
01:07:01
There's a few good people out there. Not enough. Not enough. And yes, I think it goes all the way to the top.
01:07:08
It goes all the way to the top. And I think maybe what they didn't see coming and couldn't imagine having to contend with
01:07:13
is fucking Karen Gay Silkwood. Yeah. And they had to put her down for that. Mm-hmm.
01:07:18
And that's the mysterious death of Karen Gay Silkwood. Wow. That's like, it's so odd because it's so relevant today.
01:07:26
Yeah. It's all that stuff. Union stuff. It's like, yeah, it's the workers and people.
01:07:34
I wish I had an education because it's really, it's quite a discussion. Sure. But I mean, yeah.
01:07:40
it's people can people can make a difference i mean like i don't think karen silkwood in the
01:07:47
midst of that shit that she went through maybe even thought it was worth it because let's actually
01:07:52
try to think that out for a second they're accusing her that she intentionally poisoned
01:07:57
herself with plutonium to to set up um her the nuclear power plant she worked at to make them
01:08:04
seem less safe, that still doesn't account for all the missing plutonium. Right.
01:08:10
So if she did that in order to draw the eye to it, then we owe her a debt of gratitude.
01:08:16
Yeah. Because that plutonium is still gone. Who owns it? Where did they sell it to?
01:08:20
Who can make a nuclear bomb? If you ask the dude who wrote The Killing of Karen Silkwood, it's to our own government.
01:08:26
Yeah. And we sold that plutonium to other countries. Sure. and if you look into our past governments
01:08:34
look into it it's not a surprise look into it and tell us what you find I don't want to look into it because I just watched the Madeline McCann documentary
01:08:41
and it was really hard you can't handle more of that I just don't need any more of the mercenary psychopaths
01:08:48
in this world that will do anything for money it's just such a bummer it's such a bummer
01:08:53
wow that was great thank you That was a fun pseudo discussion. We just dived deep in it.
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Learn more at Brex dot com slash AF. So, OK, I'm obsessed with Chernobyl. Yes. The photographer, friend of the podcast, Robin von Swank, she fucking went to Chernobyl and took all these photos and talked to the people who still live there who wouldn't leave like the grandmas and shit.
01:10:47
so von swank curiosities there's just a shit ton of the most gorgeous abandonment porn
01:10:53
in chernobyl of all fucking places and that's that's such an amazing use of her talent she's
01:10:59
she's the same photographer she took our picture that we use now the most current picture and then
01:11:04
she also took the murder squad boys picture that's right that um it looks like it looks like
01:11:11
it's a podcast picture it also looks like they're a really rad alt country band yeah or they they're
01:11:16
like joint authors of like like crime novels sure which i guess they kind of are i don't know i mean
01:11:22
they kind of yeah it's true true ones she's super talented go and look at all of robin van van swank
01:11:27
van swank all of robin van swank stuff because she's amazing yeah all right tell me a story do
01:11:33
you want to hear a story i just i just cracked a new can of wine i can finally sit back and listen
01:11:38
instead of trying to spout you relax for once why don't you take it mom have a night off
01:11:44
It has wings! The darn thing's got wings! So this is a story, and there is so much more to it.
01:11:56
But it's one of those ones that happened at the end of last year. because you know how everyone's why i like to do a let's update true crime happening in the real
01:12:05
world that's freshie um a freshie like the time that i reported on the guy that out of leaves in
01:12:10
his fucking living room and it was from seven years prior um i like a freshie okay so oh which
01:12:17
oh yeah we met um and now i'm gonna guess and say that that was in des moines right we met
01:12:24
women who knew that murderer who had the leaves in his living room and had plastic bags of leaves
01:12:33
pinned up to his all across his wall. Go look at a photo of it. It's creepy as it sounds. It's
01:12:38
really crazy. And one of these women who somehow knew him, I can't remember if it was like some
01:12:43
distant relative or ex-workmate or whatever. They said it wasn't that they believed it was purely
01:12:51
for insulation because he wasn't paying for the heating in his home so he's just taking the leaves
01:12:56
which I said he's really going out of his way. You know it's like I get that and it's like but it's
01:13:03
still a fucking bananas solution. It's a banana solution. It's a banana solution. Executed bananas
01:13:09
leave. Right. And it doesn't make you more sane but it makes sense. At least there's a line
01:13:15
of logic to it. Yes. So it's not just like leaves everywhere. is he jerking off into these leaves
01:13:21
but at the same time yeah don't kill people please don't kill people if you feel like you need to bring the outside indoors
01:13:31
which is design wise it's a great aesthetic but if you're being literal about it
01:13:38
call a friend get a yurt so this is the story that happened at the end of last year
01:13:49
where a serial killer named Sam Little made a confession because he had been arrested in a cold case.
01:13:56
Do you remember this? Not by name. I'll tell you more because I'm not telling you anything.
01:14:00
I wish. Yeah, what if you were like, and I'm not telling you anything? Guess until you know.
01:14:06
Okay. I got most of this information from an LA Times article written by James Quealy, Q-U-E-A-L-L-Y,
01:14:15
from when it came out. There was also an amazing article in the cut, on the website, The Cut.
01:14:22
Good one. And the title was The Serial Killer and the Less Dead, and Less Dead was in quotes, written by a writer named Jillian Lauren.
01:14:31
And that thing was very long and very involved. And then, of course, the great, great Wikipedia.
01:14:38
So anyway. Oh, yeah. Shout out so much of this shit. I mean, I had to look up nuclear industrial complex just to make sure I was saying it right.
01:14:45
Were you clicking, clicking with it link within link? You're on four pages in. Yes.
01:14:50
Thank you. Thank you. Thank you, Wikipedia. This is how we learn. This is how we grow.
01:14:55
So it has wings. Darn thing called Wikipedia's got wings. Okay. So in 2012, there is a detective on the LAPD cold case team.
01:15:07
The lead detectives at the time was named Mitzi Roberts. Yes. Which I love because she sounds like someone that would book like the improv in the 80s.
01:15:18
Like, oh, did Mitzi put you on? That's from the comedy store. So she was the lead cold case detective.
01:15:28
And she brought her team to Louisville, Kentucky with an arrest warrant for a 72-year-old man named Sam Little.
01:15:34
They brought him back to California to face three charges of murder. He was convicted and he was sent to jail without parole.
01:15:40
and that seemed to be that until last May 2018 when a Texas Ranger named James Holland came into
01:15:49
town to talk to Sam Little and thus began a conversation that four months later evoked a
01:15:55
stunning confession that Sam Little had murdered over 90 women across the United States. Holy
01:16:02
shit. Do you remember this? Yes. Okay. And did he did he come in from Texas on horseback? That's
01:16:07
how I picture it. The Texas Ranger that came in. A million gallon hat, whatever they call him. Yes,
01:16:12
he did. He, uh, it was a big horse, uh, called an airplane. And, uh, but I think Texas Rangers
01:16:21
still do wear the hat. That's part of the uniform is the hat. And like, I think really tight
01:16:26
Wrangler jeans. Yeah. And like, I'll look it up. And then, and then a cowboy shirt from
01:16:31
lee western wear great okay junior section right okay so this man samuel little was born on june
01:16:39
7th 1940 in reynolds georgia um and he claimed his mother worked as a sex worker she gave birth
01:16:47
to him during a prison stint um once she gets out they move to lorraine ohio um she is still a teen
01:16:57
I think she was 19 at the time. So he is abandoned, basically, and raised by his grandmother.
01:17:07
So the start of life is very tough for him. He's a bad student. He constantly gets into trouble.
01:17:14
So there's other stuff going on. In 1956, he's still in high school. He gets arrested for the first time for breaking and entering on private property in Omaha, Nebraska.
01:17:25
We've been there. We've been there. And we know what it's like. we love it. He serves time in juvie briefly. Once he's released, he goes back to Ohio,
01:17:35
drops out of high school, starts his life of crime. So in 1961, he breaks into a furniture
01:17:40
store in Lorain and gets arrested and he's sentenced to three years in jail. So he gets
01:17:47
out in 1964 In the late 60s he moves to Florida because that where his mom is He picks up odd jobs there He an ambulance attendant He a cemetery worker He a day laborer but he makes sure to keep up with his passions petty theft and fist fighting
01:18:07
They're hard to give up. I mean, when you really have the love and when you're good at it and when you can combine the two.
01:18:14
Oh, what a high. During one stretch in jail, he takes up boxing. So he's doing like basically.
01:18:21
Don't let. Don't do that. Yeah. I mean, that's what else are you going to do? Shouldn't be allowed in prison.
01:18:26
He starts getting serious about his training. It never really goes anywhere. But he basically trains to be like a middle heavyweight boxer.
01:18:35
That's an honest fucking job. I mean, if you're being honest. If you're going to be honest about it and not a creepo.
01:18:42
Then over the next 10 years, Sam drifts from town to town. He makes a living shoplifting, stealing money.
01:18:50
He spends the majority of his money on alcohol and drugs. he hangs out with sex workers and their pimps.
01:18:55
By 1975, so in a bad 70s exploitation movie, or black exploitation movie, he would be referred to as a bad dude.
01:19:04
Okay. That's my opinion. That's editorializing. By 1975, he's been arrested 26 times.
01:19:11
Shit. In 11 different states. Damn, going for a record. Yeah, so he's all over. And the charges include theft, assault,
01:19:18
attempted rape, fraud, and, just to change it up, attacks on government officials.
01:19:24
So seven years later, September of 1982, a 22-year-old woman named Melinda Lepre goes
01:19:31
missing in Pascagoula, Mississippi. That sounds right. I mean, it felt good. Yeah.
01:19:38
No one in Mississippi listens to this podcast, so we're never going to be corrected on that.
01:19:42
We'll see. Okay. And here come the letters through the letter slot, the digital letters.
01:19:48
um okay so melinda lapree is a sex worker and um sam little was known to have spent time with her
01:19:57
so that plus his in very long record gets him arrested for melinda lapree's murder but a grand
01:20:04
jury declines to indict him um while he's being investigated for melinda lapree's murder he becomes
01:20:11
a suspect in the murder of 26 year old patricia mount in florida um so what when the grand jury
01:20:19
passes on indicting him for for um melinda lapree's murder in mississippi he's transferred to florida
01:20:25
where he's then tried for the murder of patricia mount and during this trial witnesses testify that
01:20:31
they saw sam little with patricia mount the night before her disappearance but without any other
01:20:36
damning evidence the prosecution's case falls apart and in january of 1984 little is acquitted
01:20:42
of patricia mount's murder so then he immediately moves to san diego i so in october of 1984 less
01:20:50
than a year out of prison sam little is arrested once again for the kidnapping beating and strangling
01:20:56
of 22 year old laurie barros who was left he left her on the side of the road for dead
01:21:01
but she was not fucking dead. She was playing dead until he left. She survives. She reports the crime to the authorities
01:21:10
and she identifies Sam Little as her attacker. But there's a delay. It takes the police about a month to find Sam Little.
01:21:18
And when they do, he's in the same place where he assaulted Lori Barrows the month before.
01:21:27
And so when they find him, he's there with another woman that he has just strangled who's unconscious in his car in the backseat of his car god so they
01:21:37
arrest him and the woman survives oh so they get there like just fucking in time but i'm so i know
01:21:43
what's gonna happen now like this is the part where everyone in the audience claps yes and then
01:21:49
you turn to them or one of us turns to them and says why are you you know how this is going to go
01:21:54
don't clap now yeah don't clap now i have four pages left in my hand you're gonna break your own
01:21:59
heart. Yes. Yes. That's that's how this always is. Because you can see it so clearly in hindsight.
01:22:05
If if Lori Barrows comes to the police and says, this man just attacked me strangled me and left
01:22:11
me for dead. Everybody, they should all be out. It shouldn't take three weeks. Well, they look at
01:22:16
her record and maybe she has some arrest or some record. And so they say, well, who fucking cares?
01:22:21
Yes. Paul Holes will say this is not how it happened today. Yeah. Acknowledging that that's
01:22:26
how it fucking happened then. Yes. You know, you can't not acknowledge it. Right. I mean,
01:22:31
and that's the best thing you can do is say, this is these are the old attitudes. We have to change
01:22:36
it. Yes. We have to change it. Yes. Okay. So now that he's been caught red handed, he's found
01:22:43
guilty of his crimes against both of these women. And he's sentenced to how many years in jail?
01:22:49
four yeah four that was the same time right Stephen yeah that was perfectly at the same
01:22:56
time happen because I thought you were gonna take a two more seconds and then I was like it's this
01:23:02
I'm setting it up to be a disappointing thing I was gonna say five yeah it was fucking it's four
01:23:07
and he ends up serving two and a half years fucking for the attempted murder of two different
01:23:13
women like a month apart so he is released again in february of 1987 let him go and where the fuck
01:23:20
does he go south central los angeles right so this is from jillian lauren's article from the cut
01:23:25
quote ravaged by the crack epidemic and the reagan administration's subsequent war on drugs
01:23:30
south central became a playground for predators during that era up to seven sexually motivated
01:23:36
serial killers including lonnie franklin who is the fucking grim sleeper chester turner michael
01:23:42
Hughes, our boy Richard fucking Ramirez from the devil, and Louie Crane and Sam Little himself
01:23:48
operated with near impunity in the area, according to local law enforcement and community activists.
01:23:54
Holy shit Yes So they not only you know we talked about this a bunch of times the grim sleeper murdered sex workers and black women in south central los angeles for 20 years
01:24:08
it went on so long that it is it's the kind of case you almost can't cover right because
01:24:13
of how extreme it is how extensive it is like you can't do it justice really i can't do it justice
01:24:21
And you can't do it without totally insulting the police force because it's, you know, it's a really hard case to cover with empathy or understanding toward a police force who literally were making up slang of what to call black sex working women who would get murdered that were.
01:24:42
And that's what this Jillian Lawrence article is about. That's what she's referring to is the serial killer and the quote less dead.
01:24:50
Right. Because it's like saying that these women are less dead than other people, that sex workers are less dead when they get killed because they just, quote, A, deserve it, or B.
01:25:00
They live a lifestyle that's a little more risky, so somehow they were asking for it.
01:25:04
Or drug use, like the thing where they're trying to pin on Karen Silkwood, where it's saying, oh, because you do these things in your life, you somehow have a hand in this.
01:25:13
You deserve it. You were asking for it. And then if it goes even higher up, it's the fucking government not putting enough police force in the fucking South Central.
01:25:19
So they're dealing with these day to day insane fucking things in this crack epidemic that they that the fucking government started to begin with.
01:25:29
That's what this episode is called. So essentially, this is the it's the same. It's this it's this standard serial killer narrative turned on its head because there's no process.
01:25:41
There's no cooling off period. There's no build. There's no intrigue or, you know, for lack of a better word.
01:25:49
to this serial killer process. No alarms are sounded when these missing women disappear.
01:25:56
It's a psychopath taking advantage of the ugliest parts of society's truth in that some people's lives count less than others to the authorities.
01:26:06
And these men, especially, of course, Lonnie Franklin, but this guy Sam Little just went in and exploited that fact
01:26:14
and did exactly what he wanted to do. and to illustrate that there's an amazing pull quote that's just sitting on the side
01:26:22
of one of the uh the side of the cut the cut article and it just says he'd done three months
01:26:29
for assault and rape he'd done three years for robbing a furniture store and that's it in a
01:26:35
nutshell that's it right there what we value and how the law works for those things okay so okay
01:26:42
So basically, this is another quote from that cut article quote. They began working up.
01:26:46
So when the cold case team went in, they began working up a dossier on him. So Sam Littlehead aliases Samuel McDaniel, Samuel McDowell, Willie May Clifton and Willie Lewis.
01:26:58
The detectives ran rap sheets and arrest records, pulled prison packages, did vehicle searches.
01:27:04
When the results began to pile up on her desk, Mitzi Roberts unflappable cool gave way to astonishment, even anger.
01:27:11
The question wasn't where he'd been hiding all these years. He hadn't been hiding.
01:27:15
He'd been committing crime after crime in plain fucking sight. The fucking isn't in that quote.
01:27:22
End quote. Sorry. Okay. So this cold case team in 2012 gets a grant from the National Institute of Justice that allows them to launch this cold case special section.
01:27:36
So they're tasked with screening DNA evidence to link and possibly solved cold cases from the L.A. area.
01:27:42
So Sam Little's DNA is in the database for those attacks that he only served two and a half years for.
01:27:49
So when they screen old DNA samples from several cold case murders in the L.A. area in the late 80s, they find a match.
01:27:58
Sam Little's DNA matches the DNA found on two unsolved murder victims. Audrey Nelson, who was killed in August of 1989, and Guadalupe Apodaca, who was killed in September of 1989.
01:28:12
Wow. So Mitzi Roberts takes a closer look at Little and his background, and it confirms that he's involved in these murders.
01:28:19
He clearly has, you know, he has the record. Yeah. And the only reason he's out of jail is basically a technicality.
01:28:27
It's not even like he's trying to be stealth about them. It's like, well, it's just waiting for someone to match them up.
01:28:31
Yeah. But he's probably not even thinking about that part at all. So she pulls an outstanding narcotics warrant that was against him from 2007.
01:28:40
Cool. The DA agrees to extradite as long as she can find him. So now she has to go figure out where the fuck he is, Carmen San Diego style.
01:28:48
I'm super lately into getting someone in for a warrant for violating their probation, but it's about a bigger thing.
01:28:55
So they did a little fucking thing wrong. where they were hanging out with someone who is also a convict and they pull them in for that but
01:29:01
they fucking have them on something else and they can swab them for dna and yeah that's how it starts
01:29:05
i mean that's a really cool trick yeah because there's i mean there's loopholes on both sides
01:29:10
there's loopholes that will get people out of things you're like what the fuck but then that's
01:29:14
also the there's loopholes on the other side to go well there is an outstanding warrant for you
01:29:19
for narcotics yeah so we get to pull you in we don't have to right we normally disqualified your
01:29:24
normal rights yes by that and and hooray because now we get to do it Paul Holtz do it um run that
01:29:31
DNA um so LAPD robbery homicide unit then discover financial records that point to little being in
01:29:39
because he had social security payments um that he was putting on a prepaid Walmart card in Louisville
01:29:45
Kentucky so the U.S. Marshals Fugitive Tax Force um is sent to Louisville um and they finally find
01:29:53
Sam Little in a homeless shelter on September 5th 2012 They arrest him and they extradite him back to los angeles he refuses to talk another dna match comes in a third victim 41 year old um carol alford who had
01:30:08
been strangled to death and found in a residential alley in south central um so with three charges of
01:30:15
murder on january 7th 2013 samuel little goes to uh goes to court for the murders of nelson
01:30:23
Apodaca and Alford. The actual trial starts in September 2014. He maintains his innocence
01:30:31
throughout. The evidence proves him otherwise and several women who had been Little's victims but
01:30:37
escaped, they come and testify against him. Their testimonies along with the newly found DNA evidence are
01:30:45
enough to put him away. So on September 25, 2014, Samuel Little is found guilty of the murders
01:30:51
of Nelson Apodaca and Alford He's sentenced to three consecutive life sentences with no possibility of parole.
01:30:58
And now so he's just going to jail. But now the FBI decides they need to run a full background check on him since he clearly is a multiple murderer and possibly a serial killer.
01:31:09
And that leaves them to discover compelling links in his history to many more cold cases.
01:31:15
His travel patterns for one lineup with the timing of several cold case murders, including one in Odessa, Texas.
01:31:22
Oh, my God. So in spring of 2018, Texas Ranger James Holland, the one that we were talking about, along with VICAP crime analyst Christina Palazzolo and Department of Justice Senior Policy Advisory and VICAP liaison Angela Williamson.
01:31:39
These are all the jobs you can have in law enforcement if you want to go in there.
01:31:43
Love it. You can fucking just work for VICAP all the time. Yeah. Do it. They go to California to interview Sam Little because they he wanted to get transferred to a smaller prison.
01:31:53
The prison that he was in in California was out in the desert. It was one hundred and five all the time.
01:31:58
It was really crowded. Maybe there's like fucking crazy mean prisoners that they don't want to be in the population with.
01:32:03
Yes. That's I think that's a great tactic, too, is trading being transferred to a better.
01:32:09
There are better prisons than others. Just smaller. He wanted a smaller, quieter because now he was in the 70s.
01:32:15
Well, good for fucking him, but also like, let's solve some cold cases. Right. He had something to give.
01:32:21
And so that's when James Holland from the Texas Rangers came out. So he basically James Holland says, I will take you to a prison in Texas where it's much smaller.
01:32:33
It's cleaner. It's quieter. There's barbecue. Like you might be able to get some barbecue there every once in a while.
01:32:39
You might be like he was kind of going. There's these there's a bunch of perks. but we need to know about these cold cases in odessa texas yeah and that is the conversation
01:32:51
that he has over a four-month period with james holland where he eventually confesses to 90
01:32:57
over 90 different murders that took place between 1970 and 2005 he begins this confession by simply
01:33:06
naming city states and the number of murders he's committed in each location he's like a
01:33:12
fucking israel keys style serial killer where he just was kind of um went wherever he felt like
01:33:17
going and didn't have a lot of connections and just kind of killed sex workers and women of color
01:33:23
um that were in situations and because he was uh trained as a boxer what he would do was beat the
01:33:31
shit out of them and then when they lost consciousness strangle them but then leave
01:33:36
them in the in, you know, say a motel room or an alley or a place where if they are known sex workers
01:33:42
and known drug addicts, the cops would look at their body and say, that's probably from
01:33:48
the drug overdose or whatever. Yeah. And basically, all of the detail of the murder would get lost in
01:33:56
the lifestyle that the authorities were looking at when they saw the dead body. So basically,
01:34:02
he Sam Little goes into deeper detail he can describe the events of every murder with staggering
01:34:10
clarity. What the fuck? He's also a talented artist so he has drawn many of his victims from memory
01:34:18
that are in the cut article that's the top picture. It's this series of portraits that are kind of cool
01:34:24
looking where you're like what's this? And then you look down and they were all drawn by him. Oh
01:34:28
God that creeps me out so much. It's Super creepy. So among the murders confirmed to have been committed by Little is the January 1996 murder of 24-year-old Melissa Thomas.
01:34:40
He, as he recounts it, met Melissa one day on the street in Opelousas, Louisiana.
01:34:46
They drove to a cemetery to use drugs. While they were there, they moved to the backseat of the car to have sex.
01:34:53
And while back there, he began to stroke her neck. And he even recalls her saying,
01:34:58
why do you keep touching my neck are you a serial killer and in that moment his temper flared and he
01:35:04
strangled her to death she was 24 years old 24 her body was later found naked beneath a pecan tree
01:35:10
in a cemetery behind a baptist church and when questioned about the details of the event little
01:35:14
was able to recount the layout of the town with such accuracy that authorities were able to confirm
01:35:21
his involvement so he remembered every fucking moment of it basically after countless interviews
01:35:27
with Sam Little, detectives have described him as, quote, pure evil and, quote, a charismatic psychopath.
01:35:35
So far, of the 93 murders he's confessed to, the FBI has corroborated 39 of them.
01:35:42
Holy shit. With, quote, many more pending. Oh, my God. Again, from the cut, quote,
01:35:49
so far he has described 93 killings, 39 have been confirmed by available evidence.
01:35:53
like those of Rosie Hill he killed in 1982 in Marion County, Florida. Daisy McGuire killed
01:36:00
1996 in Houma, Louisiana, or Houma, Louisiana. Nancy Carol Stevens, who was killed in 2005 near Tupelo, Mississippi,
01:36:08
and Little's first murder, a blonde woman in Miami, which was recently confirmed, but her name has not been released.
01:36:19
And again, this is restating it, but he dodged the arrest by targeting low-income neighborhoods
01:36:24
and areas with particularly high numbers of drug addiction and unsolved murders. He said, quote, I can go into my world and do what I want to do.
01:36:34
That's his attitude about it. The other factor contributing to the ability to dodge the efforts
01:36:39
was his method of killing, which as I explained, he basically because he used his hands on them,
01:36:45
there was they would always assume there's no bullet wounds, there's no stab wounds,
01:36:49
there's no overt signs of a murder case. And so there's no defensive ones either,
01:36:54
probably because he knocked them out. Yeah, he'd just like punch them out and then strangle them
01:36:58
to death so no foul play was ever suspected and most of the deaths were attributed to drug
01:37:03
overdoses holy shit um today littles and poor health he will likely stay in prison uh until
01:37:10
his death uh so the goal now is to verify his victims and provide closure and justice in the
01:37:15
unsolved cases so vicap is hoping that this case will serve as a reminder to every jurisdiction of
01:37:21
the importance of consistent violent crime reporting because when you actually investigate
01:37:26
the death and you see that it's a violent crime and you put it into vicap then they can start
01:37:31
tracing these people who are who are perhaps serial killers around the country yeah and and
01:37:37
five hours ago there was this story that i just found from today from fucking five hours ago like
01:37:43
literally the headline said pro um prolific serial killer draws more victims after confessing to 90
01:37:50
murders including one in Houston um and basically he drew a picture of a new person and the authorities
01:37:58
saw it more like who is this and um basically he he had created 16 drawings of the victims based on
01:38:06
memory he's recently added 10 more drawings to the collection that's why we don't need that little
01:38:12
creepy bit like this is a terrible enough story that this part is like yeah but guess what five
01:38:17
hours ago there's a brand new creepy bit where it's like he's got it all up in his head one of
01:38:22
the victims only identified as a black female between 25 and 28 years old was killed in Houston
01:38:27
between 1976 and 1979 or in 1993 the FBI said what they're not sure the drawings include victims
01:38:36
from Charleston South Carolina Cincinnati Ohio New Orleans New Orleans Louisiana Savannah Georgia
01:38:43
Kendall, Florida, and North Little Rock, Arkansas. The California Department of Corrections and Rehabilitation inmate locator shows Little
01:38:51
is currently in custody at the California State Prison in Los Angeles County. This is the continuing story of terrible, horrifying serial killer Sam Little.
01:39:03
So is he suspected of more crimes in Los Angeles, too, or in California? I don't know specifically, just more crimes.
01:39:11
So, yeah, it's basically when he decides to tell the Texas Rangers or whoever he's still speaking with about the details.
01:39:23
That is unbelievable. I mean, insane, awful. So crazy. Great job. Thank you. To me, when this story broke, I was just like, man, this is another one of those grim sleeper stories where it's just someone who got to do what they wanted for 40 years.
01:39:39
And how many more are there like that? And how many families are hoping that someone gives a shit about their fucking loved one who died and no one investigated it?
01:39:48
Right. The fact that DNA is going to fucking come for you. And it's fucking crazy.
01:39:53
I mean, it goes all the way. It goes all the way to the top. That's a top. Motherfuckers.
01:39:58
Oh, Jesus. Let's change the topic. Okay. Something good. What's your fucking hooray this week?
01:40:02
I want to say great job, though. Oh, thank you. You did that really well. Thank you.
01:40:07
Thank you. Fucking hooray. I have, you know, just some light ones. Yeah. Let's go light this week.
01:40:14
New therapist. Is that light? Yeah. Okay, great. New therapist I connecting with now after three sessions I really like her Awesome She got crystals in her office I don know All the stuff you love Stuff I don like but I think people who have their shit together have
01:40:29
You know what I mean? Like her. She has a geode. A coaster. Essentially, like a coaster that's made of that's a hexagon.
01:40:37
That's marble. Okay. It's like, oh, you have your shit together. Okay. Yeah. Weird.
01:40:41
No, not at all. That's I told you my first appointment with Michelle, my therapist.
01:40:46
I looked around and everything was mid-century and moss green and I was like this is crazy
01:40:51
this is where I belong if you can match your furniture I can tell you about Janet
01:40:56
the trust is there there it is I'm getting to house remodel a little bit and pick out like tiles and shit
01:41:05
which also means that I get to be bossy which is hard for me and I'm learning how to
01:41:10
no it is not you're high as a kite it's all you do okay you're right but I love it.
01:41:18
And that, and I could do it without feeling guilty. Cause I'm paying her. You should not feel guilty.
01:41:23
Anyway, you get to do what you want. I know. I'm in this life. I'm learning. I'm trying.
01:41:27
You get to. Okay. Especially with shit like tiles. What if I was like, yeah. And then I just squatted and took a piss on the carpet.
01:41:34
Then we take you to your favorite therapist. Yeah. And then Ricky Lynn Hump scrubs me the fuck down in a mental institution.
01:41:40
And also, okay. I binge watched pen 15, which is just the word penis with a number
01:41:47
it's just I get it it's on Hulu it's their original show and it's like a combination
01:41:54
of Strangers with Candy meets Degrassi and I don't cry I'm talking to my new therapist about that
01:42:02
I cried in two episodes and it meant so much to me it was such a beautiful show and so well done
01:42:09
and great acting and also weird and it's also kind of a miracle that it got made because it's just a weird show.
01:42:16
Yeah. But in a great way. And in the same way with Strangers with Candy, it's like, it just meant a lot to me.
01:42:21
It's a beautiful show. That's awesome. Pen 15. I've heard so many good things about Pen 15.
01:42:26
Yeah. Yeah, I should watch that. Well, mine, I would say on that, on a similar note,
01:42:35
I've been watching, there's a bunch of Miss Marples that are on. Which one's that?
01:42:41
Miss Marple is, it's Agatha Christie's character. where it's the old lady that basically keeps showing up at places and being like,
01:42:46
what's going on here? But she's a nosy Nelly. She's a nosy Nelly that's as smart and observant as Sherlock Holmes.
01:42:53
So she goes in and is like, but I noticed that you had that brooch on yesterday.
01:42:56
And it's really delightful. And in this series that I'm sure was BBC or some British network,
01:43:05
there's several different actresses that play her because it was on for so long and the character's old.
01:43:11
So the actresses were on the older side. Cool. So there's a couple different and they're all amazing in their own way.
01:43:17
But it's just it's that thing that's getting me through at night sometimes where it's just like comforting.
01:43:23
It's so comforting. But then you look at it and there's the casts are amazing. The directing is amazing.
01:43:30
Like it's actually great television. Yeah. That I kind of put on like, no, this old, funny old lady.
01:43:35
And it's like, I love this show. It's almost like you can do both. You can have this like binge watching thing that you put on in the background, but it can also be really well made.
01:43:42
And that's like nice to probably it feels good. Yeah. But I will say this. This is a little bit bigger and maybe a little bit more philosophical.
01:43:53
But the other day. So my new thing lately is I'm just blow drying my hair just so that like, you know, I spent five years going.
01:44:02
I don't care what I look like. Yeah, it's evident. And so this is my new way of turning it around and just being like when I go outside, this is what I just go like, what do normal people do?
01:44:12
And then I try to do that too. So blow drying my hair is a big thing because when my hair is not blown dry, I look a bit
01:44:18
like a lunatic. Me too. At least when it is, it's just like you kind of feel a little bit better.
01:44:24
Your hair looks styled right now. Thank you. And I think I've seen you both unblow dried and blow dried a lot.
01:44:29
And I get it too. My hair is fucking insane. And if I don't blow dry, I look like your crazy aunt.
01:44:34
Yeah. And your hair, I can tell the difference. And right now it looks like an expensive styling.
01:44:39
Thank you. I did it. You look beautiful But I have to say so it just that thing where I go I don know what to do right now with myself but I just know that I have to do the little things
01:44:51
And I just have to figure out what I want to do and do them. Yeah. So I did my blow dry plan.
01:44:57
And at one point I went to Gelson's and I walked up and it was just that thing where I think I feel a little bit better about myself.
01:45:05
I'm making eye contact with people. I'm having a good time. Slouching. I do it too.
01:45:09
Slouching along. And just like feeling shitty. And I have that thing now where when I am on the heavier side, I get really embarrassed in public.
01:45:19
I don't want to make eye contact. I don't want to be in public. I have a lot of like, I am very, very mean to myself.
01:45:26
It's like a shame, shaming yourself. Yes. I do the Game of Thrones shame walk, but in Gelson's grocery store.
01:45:33
So I'm in the grocery store with my hair and my new attitude, my little ton of mascara.
01:45:40
I got a new one. And I walk up to the yogurt section. There's a Miss Marple style old lady standing there staring at the yogurt in the area I want to be in.
01:45:50
So I'm standing kind of diagonally over to the side waiting for her to leave so I can go in and get my Fajay yogurt.
01:45:57
And there's 0% or 2%? I like 2%. Yeah, you got to have a little fat in there. You got to have it's more filling.
01:46:02
It's good for you. 0% it doesn't. Why are you? Don't worry about it. Don't pretend to eat.
01:46:07
Let's not be crazy. Yeah. um so as i'm standing there waiting i see movement in the back and i see some yogurts
01:46:13
getting stacked up and then i hear this voice go miss do you need any help finding anything
01:46:17
and i was like no i'm or i go do you know where the big fages are and he's like it's right over
01:46:24
here but it's just i can see the outline of a guy and basically he and i had a full fucking
01:46:30
conversation and he was like miss do you want me to come out and show you where it is and then i
01:46:34
start laughing I'm like no I can see it it's right there oh my god he wanted to come show you his
01:46:39
yogurt and then I find it I'm like take it down he goes is there anything else I can help you with
01:46:44
and I was like no I I think that's it he's like I hope you have a great day miss and I'm making
01:46:49
him sound younger than he was because it sounded like a man and from the 60s or 50s 50s it was
01:46:54
50s style customer service for sure yeah but it just was it I couldn't stop laughing as I walked
01:46:59
I was like thanks so much thanks so much for your yogurt experience do you feel like you're being
01:47:03
acknowledged a little more because you're walking around with confidence and eye contact and people
01:47:07
are like noticing you as a human being and someone to interact with in life? I think what it made me
01:47:13
realize is I think I've spent a lot of my life thinking I didn't have to bring anything to the
01:47:20
table and still that I would be just in complaining that I didn't get anything from the table,
01:47:24
where it's like an even exchange. So if I want to meet someone interesting in life,
01:47:30
I have to have eyes up yogurt conversation at the ready. Like it's you have to be prepared to do it
01:47:37
and be the kind of person somebody might want to talk to through the yogurt fucking stalls.
01:47:42
And I think in addition to that is not someone who you think, why is this person talking to me?
01:47:46
Like they're making fun of me or they don't care. Instead of being like, I'm a worthy person of
01:47:51
being spoken to. And I can bring that confidence to them as well. And they're attracted to that.
01:47:55
And I'm attracted to theirs. Yes. Right. I think so. I mean, like I, it made me feel
01:48:00
like a pretty lady the way he was trying to give me dairy area service all up in your dairy area
01:48:08
but it was that thing where i walked away going the only thing different about me from a time
01:48:16
before till now is the fact that i kind of went well i'm going to the store with this hair like
01:48:21
yeah i want to be in the world and you know it's not the hair it's the confidence it gives you yeah
01:48:27
hair is great too hair's fine mascara is nice i mean i look a little dead without it so it does
01:48:33
help gotta put on some lipstick you don't want to look like a corpse from the messages from pat
01:48:39
kilgarra from the beyond damn it it's got wings but then the dark thing's got wings but then
01:48:43
sometimes it's like then sometimes some fun thing could happen i i feel like that was so out of my
01:48:50
realm for so long you know what you were doing what learning do you know that flirting with the
01:48:57
No. Was I flirting? You guys were flirting. Were we? Which is when I single one of my favorite fucking hobbies Flirting is fun I terrible at it Try it It stupid and ridiculous But no tell me how because see my problem is i try to go for the joke as if anyone gives a single shit that i like here my
01:49:17
wordplay wordplay's good but like you know like well i'm gonna get you i'm gonna i'll shove the
01:49:23
i'll bury all over here i don't know i can't oh four sticks of butter up what's that you say like um this went wrong no told me to tell
01:49:37
you oh i just got what's her face voice did you hear me go oh when i'm flirting this is my voice
01:49:42
oh i don't recall i'll shove the dairy it puts the dairy in the basket oh i don't recall
01:49:50
i don't think pink pretend you're janet for my mom for a minute well she loves a blowout
01:49:57
that's the first thing i ever noticed she gets great blowout and she's the biggest flirt i've
01:50:02
ever met she's great at it why she thinks she's hot fucking shit at all times she is
01:50:08
she is she's hot shit but like if you're like some dairy guy says something to you it's
01:50:14
it's like sarcasm it's like pretend they're a gay guy that you would have a conversation with
01:50:19
and be like well fuck you bitch but like do it to someone you want to fuck that's flirting shit
01:50:25
that's good that's a great easy translation with your gay guy friends all the time yes and you
01:50:31
don't realize it because it's just normal it's natural but that's you need to treat straight
01:50:36
guys like that too that's a great idea everyone's gay from now on everyone's gay yeah i mean aren't
01:50:40
we oh then we make out quote that's the perfect ending to this episode um to quote who to quote
01:50:50
Kurt Cobain, everyone is gay. Oh, Kurt. Remember? There he goes. Corporate rock still sucks. Am I right, buddy?
01:50:58
Yeah. You ruined my life with your weird attitudes and your heroin problem. Did you do that?
01:51:05
Wow. This has been intense. This has been fucking lights off Exactly Right Office.
01:51:12
We covered every single topic. Are there any more? No. Is this the end of the podcast? I think it is.
01:51:18
Can you feel it? Can you feel it ebbing away? I can feel it in the air. Let's let it go.
01:51:22
Tonight. And know that there'll always be another dairy section to come flirt with.
01:51:26
Yeah. Thank you so much for listening to this insanity. Yeah. Stay sexy. And don't get murdered.
01:51:33
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