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00:02:06
Welcome. To My Favorite Murder. The podcast. Where we go over true crime cases that have happened in the history of man.
00:02:14
Uh-huh. And? Starting from the Cro-Magnon period. That's right. All the way up through the Bible.
00:02:20
And beyond. You know the important parts. You know those ones you like. Yeah. That's what we're here to talk to you about.
00:02:28
And teach you. Yeah. Yeah. We teach you. There's so much teaching. Get your notepad out.
00:02:33
Oh, there'll be a quiz on this. Oh, my God. Write down this info. We call it quote unquote information.
00:02:40
Who knows if it's true or real? We don't for sure. You know, it's funny. The other going to check where it why would that be a part of it?
00:02:47
I would actually had kind of like a weird recovered memory the other night of of the live show where I talked about the murderer who was keeping all the bags of leaves and his.
00:02:58
house and when you're like how come i didn't read this one i'm like i don't know because it's brand
00:03:02
new like full confidence and it was like a 12 year old story there's those ones that i think
00:03:08
about sometimes yeah the mistakes we've made and the path we've traveled but we just keep tripping
00:03:16
because guess what you're my favorite mistake thank you you're welcome no oh what what else do you need to know me nothing no not i look at you but i'm asking okay america
00:03:31
i get how this works and beyond nothing oh damn it not one thing i can't figure this out
00:03:36
our improv is off this week we haven't been rehearsing no but still and we're nobody instead
00:03:44
of it i'm still anding isn't it still i'm still anding yeah yeah yeah can i just say
00:03:53
This is the episode where we get sued for too many music. Did you watch the... Touching your hand.
00:04:00
Did you watch the Elton John biopic? I have not seen that movie yet. You know I hate movies and I'm a bad person to watch TV with because I yell.
00:04:07
Right. I fucking loved it. And I loved the biopic of Freddie Mercury with What's-His-Face.
00:04:14
Yeah. Remy Malek. Remy Malek. And I hate movies and I hate biopics. They're so easy to make fun of.
00:04:21
Yeah. But I was engrossed. You know, it's funny, my sister, who never gets to see anything because she's a single parent and a full time teacher, she actually, the first time she got a chance to go see a movie, she went to see the Elton John biopic, loved it, and has basically yelled at me every day since that I haven't yet seen it.
00:04:40
I'm shocked you haven't seen it. Did you see the Queen, the Freddie Mercury one?
00:04:45
Yes, I did see that one. I was ready to fucking tear it apart. And I loved it. Yeah, it's great.
00:04:51
I feel like any of those stories, what's more fascinating than watching someone become a mega rock star?
00:04:57
Yeah. That's a great story. Yeah, but it's an actor with fake teeth doing it. So it's not that great.
00:05:02
It's not a biography. It's not like a, you know, it's not real. I thought you liked it.
00:05:06
I did. I saw a documentary. I usually hate that shit. Oh, got it, got it. And in the beginning, I was like, those teeth.
00:05:11
I bet that wasn't even how it really was. And I was like, what's he going to do next?
00:05:14
Yep. Very compelling. Well, I think that guy from Mr. Robot is a great actor. Yeah, he was great.
00:05:21
Yeah, but I'm very excited to see Rocketman because everyone I know that's gone to see it was surprised at how much they loved it and how true and honest it was on Elton John's part.
00:05:36
Like how honest he was about being a diva and a dick sometimes and all the different things that he was honest about.
00:05:42
Yeah, I loved it. I think a lot of those times when you're on that level of superstar, like kind of Mount Rushmore style, you don't, you're like, yeah, I was the best to everybody all the time.
00:05:53
Well that why we wrote Stay Sexy and Don Get Murdered And we got real real about it So we can remember later in the future when we fucking cunti divas Which is two months from now Yeah
00:06:05
Which is now now. It's now. Stephen will tell you. That's right. We're already working on our next book.
00:06:10
Cunti Divas. So many asterisks on the cover of that book. Also, just speaking of which, in the spirit of our strong improv skills,
00:06:23
If you've ever listened to, there is a, I always call it a podcast, but it's not.
00:06:29
It's just this weird radio channel on my Apple Music. And it's Elton John's Rocket Hour.
00:06:36
And he basically is the DJ for an hour and plays you all the new music he loves and old hits he loves.
00:06:42
Is Henry Rollins the sidekick? Because I feel like Henry Rollins is by law required to be part of something like that.
00:06:48
Nope. It's all Elton all by himself going. And he basically is just like loves new music and loves breaking like new bands.
00:06:57
And it is awesome. And then he'll remind you of like, here's an old great hit. Yeah.
00:07:01
Remember this one? Yeah. He says. And then he'll say, you don't remember this one because it just came out.
00:07:06
Stop being a poser. Here's this band. Remember it now because you're listening to it for the first time right now.
00:07:11
Yeah. Do you have anything? Oh, I do. Okay. Kind of an important thing. Do you have anything related?
00:07:17
Yeah. Do you have anything from the podcast? Yeah. Listen, look, last week in my spirited and total, totally enthusiastic excitement to talk about season two of Dairy Girls.
00:07:33
You can't you can't you can't discount your excitement over it and enthusiasm like that needs to be part of it.
00:07:39
No, it is. And really, it's that I wanted to get the information right, knowing I had messed it up once before when I said the dairy, dairy girls took place in Belfast, as if there's only one major city in Northern Ireland.
00:07:57
um last time last week when i talked about dairy girls i said the what i'll call now i'll call it
00:08:06
the map name of dairy because that's what i saw so you're not wrong wrong tech not technically but
00:08:13
culturally very wrong in america you're not wrong well on maps but i mean like if you pay attention
00:08:20
to dairy girls right which is essentially look at the title what you yeah the basics of paying
00:08:25
attention uh the town londonderry is referred to as dairy okay and so last week i called again
00:08:32
called it londonderry having been corrected having apologized um but i'd only forgotten
00:08:38
my one mistake about talking about that show and not the second uh and arguably could be more
00:08:45
important there's they're equal mistakes maybe so anyway we got i got one tweet that was very
00:08:52
very Irish and very guilt ridden or guilt inducing where it was just like, basically like,
00:08:58
ah, you did it again. And you don't seem to care. You don't care about anything.
00:09:02
But then, uh, I got another tweet that made me laugh really hard from Nene P N E E N Y P.
00:09:10
She wrote in and said, um, or sorry, they wrote in and said, as my dad always says,
00:09:16
Londonderry is the only town in Ireland with six silent letters. So that's how in the future we'll remember to call it only dairy.
00:09:23
It's just dairy. Just like we're locals. And really, I'm going to take this contrition and this new information, this learned information, right into our UK and Ireland tour.
00:09:38
You're good, dude. Right? You're on it. I'm on it. We're coming to you, Ireland, to apologize to your face.
00:09:45
That's right. I think Dublin on November 25th, that show isn't sold out. And London on November 28th, that show just got posted and it's not sold out yet.
00:09:54
So sell it out and yell dairy at us. Don't do that. No, that'll be super irritating.
00:10:00
And you don't care. We'll discuss it. You don't care. Right. Can I do a, what's it called?
00:10:06
Corner? When I suggest something? Suggestions corner. Is that what you're calling it?
00:10:10
Did you watch, like I asked you to, Jailbirds on Netflix? Nope. Can we all need to talk about it now?
00:10:18
Yeah. Because it's the Sacramento jail. And it's just the stories. It's like Orange is the New Black.
00:10:27
It's on like the sixth floor, which is the women's ward. It's like Orange is the New Black, but real and terrifying and fascinating and wonderful and awful and amazing.
00:10:37
They talk through the toilets. What? Yeah. Like there's a way to knock to talk because the plumbing is such that it just goes all the way down.
00:10:44
So you can talk to the dudes and like form relationships. it's like Twitter through the toilet. Oh my God. And people fall in love. They send,
00:10:51
they send messages through the toilet. They've like tricked the system and it's fascinating.
00:10:56
What else are you going to do if you're just sitting in jail? Yeah. Jailbirds on Netflix.
00:10:59
I highly recommend it. Well, if we're going to do this and we might as well, then I will say the reason I haven't watched Jailbirds and I do have it on my little list.
00:11:07
When people recommend something to me, I definitely write it down because I can't find anything ever, ever. You know, I always get baffled, but
00:11:15
season two of Mindhunter came on Netflix and that's what I've been binging and it is I loved it so much
00:11:23
I watched it all in like basically two days really under my weighted blanket and I will
00:11:29
tell you this and it's not a spoiler because they talk about it in a lot of the articles but
00:11:33
among the cases that they address a big chunk of the back half of the series is spent in the time
00:11:41
in the case of the Atlanta child killer that's right They handle it so perfectly.
00:11:48
They handle it because I got super nervous. I was just like, this is going to be the version that we've always gotten and whatever.
00:11:55
And it as if they listened It like they listen to Payne Lindsay Atlanta Child Killer It so well done because it of course from the point of view of these FBI men that went in
00:12:08
But then it gets turned and the women playing these mothers of the murdered children get their time in a way they never have in reality.
00:12:18
And as I was watching it, I was just like, this is beautiful and important because these are the things they were saying to anyone who would listen.
00:12:26
And no one was listening and no, you know, like it gave me that that feeling of like the kind of justice where at least they got to say these beautiful and important things about that kind of that kind of murder and the kind of failure in the justice system for at risk kids like the kids that were below the poverty line in Atlanta in the early 80s.
00:12:56
Yeah. And not white. Unbelievable. Yes. And when the white majority of people who are white in law enforcement would come in and be so fucking condescending and everything was about you need to take care of your children. So like on the insult on top of the injury, it was unbelievable.
00:13:13
and as if they don't love their kids and are worried about their kids as much as those you
00:13:18
know as anybody else in that city right it's there's a couple really moving beautiful moments
00:13:24
and i just think it's i think they did a great job i love it i can't wait to watch the rest of
00:13:28
it yeah um if we're fucking keeping with the suggestions corner confronting oj the podcast
00:13:35
okay so i was like i'm done i know everything there is to know about the oj case we've all
00:13:40
watch the Simpsons. Like we all know all the things, but then this one is hosted by Kim Goldman,
00:13:46
who's Ron Goldman's sister. And it's really moving and really beautiful. And it's about
00:13:49
loss and tragedy and going through this thing that she went through as a young woman. And it's,
00:13:55
it's really well done and beautiful. That's great. I've been listening to, I've already talked about listening to the Ram Dass podcast here and now a couple of times and,
00:14:06
But I've listened to almost all of them. And I've transitioned over to a podcast by a woman named Tara Brock, who is an unbelievably amazing teacher.
00:14:17
And she's, I don't even know what the correct terminology is, but it's all, it's basically kind of like she's a meditation teacher.
00:14:25
But it's very it's kind of like what we do, how we use our own minds against ourselves and how to get out of the ruts and habits of being in the mind.
00:14:38
And it's really good. It's that kind of thing where like the way she talks you through the stuff, it's not too woo woo.
00:14:45
It's not too out there. And you don't have to know or have studied a bunch of stuff like it's just it's very basic.
00:14:52
Like she reminds a lot of the stuff she says reminds me of the stuff my therapist says.
00:14:56
Yeah, it's really good. And it's just how it's, you know, I don't know. I've just been I've been listening to it a lot like, you know, sitting out in the sun.
00:15:06
And it's just that kind of thing like you go, oh, yeah, that's true. Just this when you when you when you give your mind too much credit and then you get stuck in these patterns and how to get out of them.
00:15:18
Anyway, if you're interested in hearing about any of that, Tara Brock, I think that's her podcast.
00:15:25
Yeah, I looked it up and it's like literally just her name. Tara Brock. Tara Brock.
00:15:28
B-R-A-C-H. Oh, like the candies. Oh, I wouldn't have known that. Yeah. Hold on. There's one other one I want to suggest.
00:15:34
Carrier. And it's a really cool, like, it kind of reminds me of Night Vale. It's like an audio book, but it's not.
00:15:41
And it's really well acted. And Cynthia Erivo is the main character or star. And she's incredible.
00:15:47
and it's just a really fun. But it's a podcast? Yeah, and it's like to get out of your head.
00:15:51
It's creepy. Oh, that's cool. It's good. Nice. Well, that's our recommendations corner.
00:15:56
There you go. That took 45 minutes. Go to MyFavoriteMurder.com. Join the fan cult.
00:16:03
Have fun with it, you guys. That's all we have. Oh, were you going to do your TV guide
00:16:10
for the Exactly Right Network? That's right. This podcast will kill you. This week, their episode is about cystic fibrosis.
00:16:17
which I find really interesting. And I'm sure a lot of people out there want to hear about it.
00:16:21
Per cast has Lucy from Wine and Crime. Nice. Murder Squad, Billy Jensen and my alcohol supplier, Paul Holes.
00:16:29
Murder Squad is Owl's head man. And there's a bonus episode of You and Billy Jensen at the Skylight Bookstore.
00:16:35
That's right. And following surprise guest, Paul Holes. Oh, right. Yeah. I saw the photo.
00:16:40
Drinking my alcohol. What if he drank my alcohol? He said he has. He's had a couple cans of wine.
00:16:45
Oh, then I feel good. Okay. The Fall Line Season 5 is out and it's incredible. And then what about
00:16:51
this week on your podcast? Your other podcast. Do You Need a Ride? The other podcast.
00:16:58
Steven, is this week, Do You Need a Ride, just me and Chris? Last week was too. Because it's every other week.
00:17:04
This Monday was the ghost the ghost, the Swan Lake lights and everything. So that's just Chris and I
00:17:11
basically driving around and yeah. I'd listen to that, the two of you just talking.
00:17:15
It was fun. It was one of the first ones we've ever done at Ractual Night. That's right.
00:17:19
We usually do it during the day. Cool. And at one point we drove by Echo Park Lake and all the swan boats had
00:17:25
Christmas lights in the shapes of swans. So it looked so beautiful. It was really cool. Love it.
00:17:34
And that's just one of the things that happens. One of the many things. And you too can listen along.
00:17:40
We look at things. Can you fucking believe that? They comment on them. Yeah. In real time. And riff.
00:17:45
that's right and they don't let Stephen wear a seatbelt in the back so it's real exciting
00:17:50
you hear him whimpering the entire time what if you make him sit in a baby seat all day he like it it like a baby seat but with all kinds of podcasting equipment around it and attached to it Yeah and a Starbucks just right next to him
00:18:05
in case he gets antsy. Actually, a Starbucks opened in my backseat. Did you hear? A Starbucks store
00:18:11
opened a new location in your backseat? Yeah. That's crazy. It's a joke. You're just trying to piece through it? I don't know.
00:18:20
So what you're saying to me is... Let me explain this joke to you. Please, that I don't understand.
00:18:26
Look and listen. Don't want you to be upset. This joke I don't get. There's no Starbucks in the backseat of my car.
00:18:31
I thought you meant when, let me tell you what I thought. I thought you went when opened and spilled.
00:18:35
Shit. I didn't even think about that. That's, ladies and gentlemen, what we call, what is it?
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00:19:49
Why is it always chaos when we link up? Cause nobody plans anything bro. Good thing the Rogue's ready like that.
00:19:55
For real. Rain, dirt, whatever. Available all wheel drive. Five modes. We still outside.
00:20:01
And they got some kick too. That turbo? Torque is crazy. The most in its class. It moves moves.
00:20:07
Rogue doesn't mess around. And peep the space. Merch on merch. Gear. Mics. All of it fits.
00:20:13
Load up. We out. 2026 Nissan Rogue. Built for all of it. Auto Pacific Segmentation, 2026 Rogue vs. Latest in-market competitors in the ex-SUV mainstream mid-sights class, excluding electrical vehicles based on manufacturer websites.
00:20:30
Hey everyone, it's Cal Penn. I'm the host of Ear Say, the Audible and iHeart Audiobook Club.
00:20:37
This week on the podcast, I am sitting down with Ray Porter, the narrator of Andy Weir's audiobook Project Hail Mary,
00:20:45
massive sci-fi adventure about survival and science and what happens when you wake up alone very far from Earth.
00:20:53
I really had to make a decision because I caught myself getting that frog in my throat and starting to get teary as I'm narrating some of these sections.
00:21:01
And it's like, OK, yo, yo, yo, is this indulgent? And I really thought about it.
00:21:04
I was like, no, at this point, it would kind of be betraying the trust the author and the listener have in telling this story if I don't go through it.
00:21:13
But there's places in this book that deeply emotionally affected me. And I left it on the mic.
00:21:20
That's great. Because it served the story. People will say like, oh, my God, I cried at the end.
00:21:24
It's like, yeah, dude, me too. Listen to Earsay, the Audible and iHeart Audiobook Club on the iHeartRadio app or wherever you get your podcasts.
00:21:33
You're first this week. Is it me? It's you. Okay. So this, I got the idea to do this case because when we went to San Francisco to do the Custerfest Festival, which was an amazing show.
00:21:50
So fun. We had the best time. And at the end, our good friend, friend of the show, Patton Oswalt, I was going to call him Podcast Oswalt.
00:21:59
Why doesn't he have a podcast called that? I think we're going to pitch it to him.
00:22:05
Podcast Oswalt came on, and he came and did his hometown from when he lived in San Francisco,
00:22:11
which was the serial killer, the doodler. And I was just flipping out because I'd never heard of this serial killer before.
00:22:21
I mean, I think it was like maybe in lists, and I kind of looked at it, but it was not anything that growing up in the Bay Area that I was familiar with,
00:22:30
which freaked me out. And Patton went over it. It kind of, it was very quick. You know, he couldn't get super detailed into it.
00:22:37
So I figured that's what I would do this week. Cool. So this week I am doing San Francisco's The Doodler.
00:22:42
Yes, right on. There's an incredibly great article from the website The All, A-W-L, which was written by someone named Elon Green that had very good detailed stuff about the victims of these crimes.
00:22:56
Also used USA Today, The Washington Post, and of course, All-American, Wicca. Wikipedia.
00:23:02
Wikipedia. Wikipedia. And this starts in 1974. And what is mind blowing is that 1974 is also the year that John Wayne Gacy began killing
00:23:15
teenage young boys, that Ted Bundy began killing young women, that Coral Watts began killing
00:23:24
fucking everybody, and that BTK began killing. 74. 74. Get your shit together. It was nuts.
00:23:33
So it was that it was a time and a place. It was there was all kinds of murdering happening all across the United States.
00:23:40
And San Francisco was no exception. And the city had already been plagued for five years by the now very infamous and yet still yet unidentified killer.
00:23:51
The Zodiac. Crazy. Do you think it's going to be solved anytime soon? Did he leave DNA behind?
00:23:56
I don't know. I bet it is. I mean, I hope so. But it's. Like he started in 68. Yeah.
00:24:04
So it's like that DNA is like 60 years old. Yeah, but I bet there's more than you think because it didn't cross his mind that we'd be a touch DNA at this point or whatever.
00:24:13
I mean, I hope so. And I hope it was saved. You know, those when these crimes come up or you listen to a thing and they're like, and then all the records were destroyed.
00:24:21
Someone went Maria Kondo on the fucking on the evidence room. Yeah. And now there's nothing left.
00:24:26
We need space. Get rid of all this evidence. Yeah. So who knows? I mean, that would be an incredibly it would be so exciting.
00:24:33
And yet it would be also so anticlimactic at this point. Some dick. It's always just some dick.
00:24:38
Well, and based on the the legendary David Fincher movie, the Zodiac. Yeah. Oh, no, I'm sorry.
00:24:45
Zodiac. Zodiac. Plain Zodiac. The Zodiac is the porn that was made based on the Zodiac.
00:24:53
And it's all the astrology signs. Fucking sexy. Um, that is sexy. But in the movie, the guy that they interview at the end, I feel like that's the guy.
00:25:05
For sure. It just really felt like it. But then again, the movie wanted you to think that.
00:25:08
Yeah. But in real life, that guy totally seems like the guy. Yes. And he lived right near Petaluma.
00:25:13
Yeah. I need a fucking Zodiac watch. Zodiac watch. And also squirrels in your mobile home.
00:25:18
The end. Yeah. The end. Butterflies in your van, as we learned from last Minnesota.
00:25:22
Last Minnesota. And then squirrels in your. Squirrels in your mobile home. Stop it.
00:25:26
Get out of here if you're double wide. So, so he had the Zodiac had been taunting SFPD and the SF media with a constant stream of cryptic threatening letters for five years at this point.
00:25:42
The last verified letter ever written by the Zodiac. This was verified. Not they'd received other ones after that, but they were all kind of.
00:25:49
Yeah. They weren't sure who wrote them. The last verified one was written by the Zodiac on January 29th, 1974.
00:25:57
But what the city didn't realize was that just as the Zodiac's reign of terror was beginning to wane, a new killer's was just beginning.
00:26:05
because five days before the last Zodiac letter, on January 24th, 1974, at just around 2 o'clock in the morning,
00:26:17
the fully clothed body of a man is found lying face up at the water's edge on San Francisco's Ocean Beach.
00:26:24
He'd been stabbed multiple times on the front and back of his body. And investigators determined
00:26:29
he died only hours before he was found. And based on the defensive wounds on his left hand,
00:26:35
He was believed to be conscious and put up a fight during his attack. No identification was found on the body, but the man was eventually identified as 49-year-old Gerald Cavanaugh, who was Canadian born, born in 1923.
00:26:51
He had emigrated to America, now worked at a mattress factory in the Bay Area. He was single, and no one else that they interviewed really knew that much about this man's personal life.
00:27:01
So six months later, on June 25th, 1974, a woman walking along Stowe Lake, which is now called Sparkles Lake in Golden Gate Park, discovers the body of a man who'd been stabbed five times again on the front and back of his body.
00:27:19
And he'd also died shortly before his body was found. And investigators notice there are also defensive wounds on this body.
00:27:27
And he also had no idea on him when he was found. this victim is identified as 27 year old joseph j stevens and j stevens was a popular female
00:27:37
impersonator and gay comedian who'd worked at san francisco's world famous club finocchios
00:27:43
um yeah so um 27 such a baby and he when he made his debut the all article talks about it
00:27:53
And he was like, he really, he was this really gorgeous drag queen who really made a splash, got to work at Finocchio's, which is a very big deal.
00:28:02
Yeah. But then eventually stopped doing drag and started just doing gay standup comedy.
00:28:08
Oh. And yeah. And so young. I mean, like really just kind of starting. Like had a future there.
00:28:14
Yeah. Yeah. Um, witnesses say that the night, um, of his murder or, you know, the, the evening before,
00:28:21
um, they saw Jay leaving the cabaret club in North beach. And, um, the police theorize that Jay himself had driven with his murderer to the park,
00:28:33
um, and actually given him a ride. So, um, less than two weeks after Jay's body is found on July 7th, a woman's walking her,
00:28:43
walking her dog discovers the body of 31 year old german-american immigrant klaus christman he'd
00:28:49
been stabbed 15 times on the front and back of his body more than the first two victims and his
00:28:55
throat had been slashed three times holy shit um inspector dave toshi of the sfpd described it as
00:29:02
one of the most vicious stabbings he'd ever seen that name might sound familiar to you because
00:29:08
inspector Dave Tosche was the lead detective on the Zodiac. That's who Mark Ruffalo played in Zodiac.
00:29:15
Nuh-uh. Yeah. That guy made me some serious therapy probably when he retired. He was in it deep.
00:29:22
And so he was one of the detectives on this case as well. Klaus Christmann was wearing a wedding ring.
00:29:28
But when investigators searched his body, they find a tube of makeup in his possession,
00:29:34
leading them to believe that Christmann was a closeted gay man. and later witnesses report seeing him at a gay bar in the tenderloin called Bojangles.
00:29:44
And this was the last place Crispin was seen alive. Wow. So the police see that there could be a connection from this stabbing to the other stabbings
00:29:53
that have been happening. So then 10 months later on May 12th 1975 So this is almost a year later A fourth body is found stabbed to death beside the highway running parallel to Ocean Beach So he identified through fingerprints
00:30:07
as 32-year-old registered nurse Frederick Capon. And Capon had also served in the Navy.
00:30:13
He was a decorated soldier for his service in the Vietnam War. He'd actually won
00:30:18
a commendation medal for saving the lives of four men under fire. He had also been stabbed in the heart and there were markings in the sand indicating that his body had been dragged about 20 feet from the place he was killed.
00:30:33
And then less than a month later, on June 4th, 1975, a 67 year old Swedish sailor named Harold Goldberg is found by a hiker in the bushes near the 16th tee of the Lincoln Park golf course, which is just northeast of Ocean Beach.
00:30:52
So it's around basically the same area. And Harold's pants had been unzipped. His underwear were missing.
00:31:00
And the body had been there for over two weeks. Holy shit. Yeah. And it was basically a hiker went like 10 feet off the trail and then found this body that had basically been hidden there.
00:31:12
So all five of these victims were found within four miles of each other and all within the span of 18 months.
00:31:18
And because all of the victims were seemingly connected somehow to the gay lifestyle or scene, of course, the gay community is gripped by fear because clearly there is someone who is attacking.
00:31:34
Predator. Yeah. Yeah. There's a predator in their midst. And of course, many people in the gay community felt like the police were not only not empathetic to the situation, but they actually blamed the victims and blamed gay men for putting themselves into vulnerable positions when they went somewhere with a stranger.
00:31:52
So there's a lot of mistrust and animosity coming from both sides. And then in July of 1975, there are two separate attacks on gay men at the Fox Plaza apartments on Market Street within two weeks of each other.
00:32:07
So both victims are able to escape with their lives. So this is the first time people are coming into contact with who they think this person who's killed these other people might be.
00:32:19
And they both of these men give the same description of their attacker. He is a tall, young black man with very smooth skin.
00:32:26
so when a third man is assaulted around the same time and provides a similar description of the
00:32:33
attacker the the police uh are starting to feel very confident they're going to be able to catch
00:32:39
this guy yeah the problem is this man this third man who was assaulted quickly leaves the city after
00:32:44
the attack and will not answer phone calls from the police right and so essentially this is what
00:32:50
they come up against is it's the 70s early 70s in san francisco mid 70s in san francisco where
00:32:56
a lot of the people, some of the people will say that frequented gay bars were not out to
00:33:02
their families. Right. And there was a ton of risk of being outed as a gay person in the early to mid 70s.
00:33:10
Totally. Because this is 1974, 75. In 1978, and this still blows my mind, I learned about this by watching The Mayor of Castro
00:33:18
Street, which is that amazing documentary about Harvey Milk. He's amazing. It's such a good documentary.
00:33:24
If you haven't seen it, I highly recommend it. In 1978, conservatives tried to pass this thing called the Briggs Initiative, where they were trying to ban gay people from teaching in California public schools.
00:33:38
Holy shit. That was 1978. Yeah. Which you would think, oh, no, it's we're almost to the 80s.
00:33:43
Yeah. Like, everything's fine. That's just an indicator for, you know, if you if you don't know or remember of the of the serious like oppression that was actually really happening.
00:33:55
And that's it's an amazing part of the mayor of Castro Street when when they go on and they basically debate the two people that brought this initiative forward.
00:34:03
and Harvey Milk and that amazing female lawyer. I don't know her name off the top of my head.
00:34:09
Basically decimate these people on the live news, like on the seven o'clock news.
00:34:14
And it is a beautiful thing to behold. Yeah. Because it's basically two people going,
00:34:20
yeah, you guys like to stand up and talk about like that we're perverted or we're, you know,
00:34:27
automatically bad people or whatever. And it's like, once you see two people who are just like out and queer and proud going, you can't do this to us. The other two look like
00:34:38
dipshits and assholes. Like it's just such a telling moment. And that initiative, of course,
00:34:45
does not get passed. And it basically kind of, they, you know, Harvey Milk got out into the
00:34:50
street and started talking to people and having people really doing like pounding the pavement and
00:34:56
saying to people like, if this initiative passed, you understand that like you could be next,
00:35:01
Whatever group you're in, if you are not like the white majority, you're also in danger.
00:35:07
Like we can't start picking people off in these like in these minority groups and saying that that's fine.
00:35:13
Yeah. And you watch people have this conversation with with people on the street and you watch their faces realize like, oh, yeah, this can't happen.
00:35:22
Right. It's really amazing and beautiful. But we're still so this is we're now three years before that.
00:35:29
Holy shit. So people who are being attacked because they were at a gay bar are like, there's no way they can't come forward and have their face on the news.
00:35:38
Even in San Francisco, which everyone thinks of as a progressive city, it's like there's only parts of it that are.
00:35:42
That's right. And it doesn't mean that the people at your job will understand or your boss will understand or, you know, your parents.
00:35:50
Everything. Yeah. There's a ton of risk. So anyway that became a big problem with this And of course the narrative became they won do anything about anything about it Like it was really we can help you because you not doing anything Yeah Well
00:36:05
you're not going to come forward too bad for you and like throw it all over your shoulder. So by
00:36:09
the assault victims and other witnesses accounts, the police put the killer's MO together. And
00:36:16
basically what, what would happen is this guy would go to gay bars, nightclubs, 24 hour diners,
00:36:21
and he would sketch the faces of basically his victims. And then he'd come up to them, tell them that he was a cartoonist.
00:36:30
He'd show them the sketch that he'd drawn of them. He'd start up the conversation.
00:36:35
And the witnesses and the victims said he was a very talented person, a very talented illustrator, really intelligent.
00:36:43
He clearly had like an upper middle class education. He was very charming, a smooth talker, and he had a big smile,
00:36:50
which I always say, you know I say, the smilier someone is, get away from that person.
00:36:58
Yeah. What are you trying to prove? Yeah. Now I'm like, am I smiling too much? I guess I do.
00:37:04
I kill everybody. I just have a lot of teeth and not a lot of lip. And it's just, it gets me in.
00:37:11
People think I'm psychotic because of it. I just want you to get huge collagen injections into your lips.
00:37:17
Into my teeth? Straight into the teeth. Okay. But lip shaped for you. Inception.
00:37:24
Don't worry about it. OK, so essentially it was he was he was intelligent, charming and smooth enough that he could lure people to a private secluded second location to hook up.
00:37:38
And people felt very safe doing that with him. And because all of these attacks happened on or around the weekends at night, police suspected that he could live in the Bay Area, but not in the city and then drive into the city on the weekends to do that and then leave.
00:37:53
I mean, they're smart to figure that out. Right. Not that he's smart. Correct. You know what I mean?
00:37:57
Yeah, I do. Five months after these, the July Fox Plaza apartment attacks, police release a composite sketch of this suspect based on the assault witnesses descriptions.
00:38:07
It shows a man who is between 19 and 25 years old. He's African-American, medium complected.
00:38:16
He stands between 5'11 and 6 feet tall, and he is lanky. The suspect is reported to have, quote, sexual identification problems.
00:38:27
This is from the police reports. Yeah. And is or was seeing a psychiatrist on an ongoing outpatient basis.
00:38:34
I don't know if that's from the conversations that the witnesses and victims had with him or what, or if it was the investigation that basically brought the cops to those people.
00:38:48
I do know that there was a, they did discover or there is in one police report, it says that there is a psychiatrist that came forward that said they had a patient who admitted to being the doodler.
00:38:59
But they can't say who it is. Right. No, no, no, that's not true. Because if you're hurting someone else or yourself, you can break doctor-patient confidentiality.
00:39:09
Is that true? Yeah. Immediate danger to yourself or others? That's what they tell you when you first go in, is if it's to yourself or others, or they think you're being hurt, they can break it.
00:39:20
Does your therapist say that to you? I think every therapist I've ever had has said that the first meeting.
00:39:25
Do they really? Yeah. Oh. I'm going to confront Michelle next week. I guess she's telling everyone about your shit.
00:39:32
Everything we talk about is on her blog. Okay, so the composite goes out and it's a very detailed and specific picture and all the identifying details are very specific, but nothing comes of the release of it.
00:39:50
And then in January of 1976, the San Francisco Chronicle runs an article about the Doodler murders.
00:39:57
It includes one story from an unnamed witness, a European diplomat who met the suspect in a restaurant in the upper market, which also could be considered the lower Castro.
00:40:09
That's right where my gap was when I used to work at the gap. Oh, I know that one.
00:40:13
Yeah. Yeah, I worked over there, too. So the suspect asked the diplomat if he had any cocaine.
00:40:19
they went off to the diplomat's apartment and they uh took party and chit chat or whatever
00:40:26
and while they were in the diplomat's apartment the suspect proceeded to stab him six times
00:40:32
but the diplomat managed to get away and um he and and he survived to basically make this police
00:40:40
report he claims to the police that he and um the suspect did not have sexual relations right um
00:40:48
And that person remains unnamed. There's also that there's stories about a famous and still living a Hollywood celebrity that also was attacked by the doodler could be one of these three men that were in this apartment building.
00:41:07
And that name people have been trying to figure out who that person is for years.
00:41:11
for a long time they suspected it was Rock Hudson because he was shooting Macmillan and wife
00:41:16
in San Francisco at the time but they say this celebrity is still alive so it can't be Rock Hudson
00:41:23
that's what that's you know rumor mill stuff reading the story in the Chronicle people start calling in tips to the
00:41:32
SFPD leading police to finally arrest a suspect based on the description and people
00:41:39
seeing this person in different places. He had been seen in a tenderloin bar, perhaps Bojangles,
00:41:48
and that is Bojangles with a hyphen. There was no Bojangles fast food restaurant in San Francisco
00:41:53
at the time So it not a Bojangles fast food It a bar So there had been a guy in a tenderloin bar offering to draw some of the customers
00:42:05
Dude. They go. They arrest a man. And when they do, they find a sketchbook on him and a butcher knife.
00:42:13
No. Yes. Guilty. When they bring him in for questioning, he is very cooperative.
00:42:20
He never admits to murdering or attacking any of these victims. But the police feel very strongly that this is their man.
00:42:28
And at one point, he snaps and tries to attack the interrogating detectives. And he is arrested for, like, attempted assault or whatever.
00:42:39
But when it comes time to press charges about the murders with this guy, the three surviving victims refuse to testify against him in court, fearing that it would out them and destroy their lives.
00:42:51
And as a result, the police are forced to release this suspect. And that suspect's identity has never been released to the public.
00:43:00
Despite this setback in the case, when that like basically when that piece of the story comes out to the public, Harvey Milk immediately steps forward to defend the surviving victim's decision not to testify, saying, quote, I understand their position.
00:43:17
I respect the pressure society has put on them. And Harvey Milk also cited that 20 to 25 percent of the 85,000 gay men in San Francisco are closeted about their sexuality at this point in time, showing a wide reluctance of gay men to share their personal lives publicly.
00:43:34
Understandable. Understandable, because the fallout was so much greater than we can understand today that anyone really understands.
00:43:41
Yeah. It was a big part of that culture. I just can't I just can't get over when I because remembering the the Briggs initiative from the documentary I watched, I was like, oh, that must have happened a couple years before.
00:43:53
Yeah. And the fact that it happens after the fact in 1978 is so shocking to me and so justifying in that in that risk that he's talking about.
00:44:03
Yeah. You know, totally. Just like it's like still coming at you. Yeah. And actually, when the killings began, it had only been a year since the American Psychiatric Association Board of Trustees had stopped classifying homosexuality as a disorder.
00:44:17
Holy shit. It had only been a year. So it was very, you know, the stigma was not gone in any way.
00:44:22
So that was 40 years ago. The case still remains unsolved. But this past February 2019, police released new information about this case.
00:44:34
And I think Patton talked about this a little bit. But since the capture of the Golden State Killer through use of DNA, detectives interest in the doodler was reinvigorated because all those big cold cases that seemed so mystifying back then are all, I think, being looked at.
00:44:52
I think so. Yeah. So the advances in DNA forensics lead detectives to believe their chances of catching the killer are now much higher.
00:44:59
In the past year, investigators have submitted DNA evidence to the police's crime lab and are still awaiting results.
00:45:05
In early February 2019, San Francisco police released an updated sketch of the original suspect to reflect how he may appear now 40 years later.
00:45:15
And it essentially is a bald black man. Yeah. Basically, it looks just like the original picture, but he's bald and like heavier.
00:45:23
Yeah. So authorities have released the recording of the 911 call that reported the discovery of the first victim, Gerald Cavanaugh's body.
00:45:31
The caller was anonymous at the time, but they're asking whoever that caller is to come forward so they can re-interview them and see if there's any additional information that they can get from that person if they're still alive.
00:45:44
Which is the weirdest part of it is it's long ago enough that that's a big issue in this case.
00:45:51
it's possible that the doodler may have been responsible for as many as 14 murders that took
00:45:57
place in San Francisco's gay community during that stretch of time between 1974 and 1975.
00:46:04
And if the doodler is still alive today, he would be in his mid 60s. So I said, I was always so
00:46:11
curious as to how I didn't know about this kind of famous San Francisco serial killer.
00:46:16
and then I read this paragraph from the Elon Green's article in the All which kind of like
00:46:22
took my breath away because he says and then four and a half years after the killings ended
00:46:27
San Francisco's own Ken Horn a ballet school dropout was reported to the Center for Disease
00:46:33
Control with Kaposi's sarcoma and five murdered men would become relative to what followed
00:46:41
a statistical blip. So it was essentially these murders happened, a little bit of time
00:46:47
passed, and then the AIDS crisis began. And basically everything changed permanently in San Francisco
00:46:55
and obviously in the world. And so that is the hopefully soon to be solved case of San Francisco's
00:47:02
The Doodler. Dude, that is emotionally charged. Isn't that nuts? And crazy. It's so like, when we start
00:47:10
pulling apart these old cold cases where it's just like all the reasons and the reasons are
00:47:15
more injustice it's like victim victims being victimized basically just because of who they are
00:47:22
yeah it's always just like it's it's the case but then you also have to factor in and all of these
00:47:28
the time and place yeah which really affect it more than you know than you would think it when
00:47:33
you're when you hear the story you're like well let's just solve it and it's like no you don't
00:47:36
understand what was going on at the time, you know, how horrible things were or how,
00:47:42
you know, racist and how sexist and how, you know, homophobic things were back then in
00:47:47
all these cases. And it wasn't back then that was just regular life. Right. Everyone was supposed to shut their mouth and try to be, you know, like, keep your place.
00:48:00
and keep your mouth shut and not speak. And if there was a message to be said, some white man was going to say it for you.
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Why is it always chaos when we link up? Because nobody plans anything, bro. Good thing the rug's ready like that.
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For real. Rain, dirt, whatever. Available all-wheel drive. Five modes. We still outside.
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And they got some kick, too. That turbo? Torque is crazy. The most in its class.
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Load up, we out. 2026 Nissan Rogue, built for all of it. Auto Pacific Segmentation, 2026 Rogue vs. Latest in-market competitors in the ex-SUV mainstream mid-sights class,
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excluding electrical vehicles based on manufacturer websites. Hey, everyone. It's Cal Penn. I'm the host of Earsay, the Audible and iHeart Audiobook Club.
00:49:57
This week on the podcast, I am sitting down with Ray Porter, the narrator of Andy Weir's audiobook Project Hail Mary,
00:50:05
massive sci-fi adventure about survival and science and what happens when you wake up alone very far from Earth.
00:50:13
I really had to make a decision because I caught myself getting that frog in my throat and starting to get teary as I'm narrating some of these sections.
00:50:21
And it's like, OK, yo, yo, yo, is this indulgent? And I really thought about it.
00:50:24
I was like, no, at this point, it would kind of be betraying the trust the author and the listener have in telling this story if I don't go through it.
00:50:34
But there's places in this book that deeply emotionally affected me. And I left it on the mic.
00:50:40
That's great. Because it served the story. People will say like, oh my God, I cried at the end.
00:50:45
It's like, yeah, dude, me too. Listen to Earsay, the Audible and iHeart Audiobook Club on the iHeartRadio app or wherever you get your podcasts.
00:50:55
All right. This is one of these disappearances and these mysterious circumstances, cases that I've been following for a while.
00:51:03
Okay. So I thought I'd finally do the mysterious disappearance and death of Chris Kramers and Lisanne Froon.
00:51:10
get ready get okay okay i've got a ton of information there's like all there's like
00:51:18
three-part article and follow-up from the daily beast from 2017 um they do an investigative
00:51:25
pieces on this called lost girls it's a whole series by jeremy crit also uh all that's
00:51:31
interesting.com there's an article by katie serena there's a blog called scarlet letters
00:51:36
that has a really great article about this. And the crime blog, MostlyMystery.com, has some good info, too.
00:51:43
I've never heard of this. Okay, I think you will once you hear about it right now.
00:51:48
As I vomit this out of my mouth. Got it. Here we are. In the spring of 2014, Chris Kremers, and that's a female, K-R-I-S, and Lisanne Froon,
00:52:01
they're students, they're from the Netherlands, and they're planning a trip together to go
00:52:05
to Panama. Yeah. Lisanne is 22. She graduated with a degree in applied sciences from De Winter, which I don't know if I said that right.
00:52:16
It seemed like you had a good kind of, there's a bit of an accent there. I liked it.
00:52:20
Netherlands-ish, right? You know. I've been to Amsterdam. Yeah, you go all over it.
00:52:24
she had just graduated and Chris who was 21 and just completed her studies in cultural social
00:52:31
education specializing in art education at the University of Utrecht they had met while working
00:52:37
in a cafe together and had become close friends and they had recently moved into the same student
00:52:43
housing in it's Amherst Fort is where it's called in the Netherlands so they were planning to go to
00:52:50
Panama is like their in-between year. They were fucking stoked. They had spent six months saving up money and planning, like meticulously planning this
00:52:58
trip. It was going to be part vacation, but then the other part of it was going to be a service
00:53:03
trip. They plan on spending some time hiking and tourisming, which is my new word.
00:53:08
And then they were also going to be learning Spanish. And then following that, they would be volunteering at a school, teaching arts and crafts to local
00:53:16
kids while staying with a host family. Nice. So it's going to be like their, what's it called?
00:53:20
bumpier. Is it bumpier? It's absolutely not bumpier. But it's gapier. Gapier. Thank you.
00:53:26
There it is. You had a gapier working at the gap. Right in my front teeth. I had gapier from age
00:53:33
zero to 17. So Lisanne, she's six feet tall and athletic. She'd been a volleyball star in college
00:53:40
and was into extreme things like skydiving and mountaineering. She had done alpine hiking,
00:53:46
you know, in the Netherlands. So she was experienced an experienced hiker and mountaineer.
00:53:53
She was she described as thoughtful intelligent empathetic and she kept a diary and brought it along with her to Panama So Chris Kremers was described as creative and intelligent She outspoken responsible
00:54:05
She had this beautiful, long strawberry blonde hair. She had less outdoor experience, but she was young and healthy and like ready to fucking take on the world.
00:54:14
She planned to go to graduate school for art history after their trip to Panama, after their bump year.
00:54:20
They both grew up in Amherst Fort, a town in the Netherlands about 45 minutes from Amsterdam, where we had so much fun.
00:54:29
Yes. What a time. What a time. I'll never forget that hotel room. Oh, my God, yeah.
00:54:35
It was like my dream apartment hotel room. It was so beautiful. It was. Okay. I was going to talk about Vince's snafu at the airport, but maybe I shouldn't.
00:54:43
No, I don't think you should. I won't. Okay. Tour Stories. That's the new podcast.
00:54:50
That's right. Okay. On March 15, 2014, the women flew from Amsterdam to Panama City, then took another flight to
00:54:59
Boca del Toro, then a boat to the Panamanian island of Isla Cullen, and then the Archipelago.
00:55:07
That's probably not right. Look. You pronounced it? Archipelago? Archipelago. Archipelago.
00:55:14
Is there an I in there somewhere? Arca. No. Not anymore. Archi. Palagio. Arqui. So they adventured in town and around there until March 29th, and they arrived to Bukete.
00:55:27
That's the small town on the Caldera River in western Panama, where they're going to stay in the host family's house and teach children.
00:55:36
And this town, Bukete, is something like a fairy tale. It's in the bottom of this valley, and it's surrounded by rainforests, and there's a volcano.
00:55:44
It's gorgeous. And there's a lot of expats and tourists that go to this place specifically.
00:55:50
And of course, you and I remember Panama in the 80s. It wasn't a fucking safe place to be.
00:55:54
Crazy. Yeah. So nuts. But now it's actually one of the safest countries in Latin America. And Boquete is thought to be even safer. It's popular with retirees and expats and has just one paved street and fewer than 10,000 residents. It's known as Little Switzerland for its resemblance to the Alps.
00:56:13
Wow. Yeah. That's cool. Yeah. But when they arrive there, they and they go to where they're supposed to start work at the school, they're disappointed to find out that they are turned away.
00:56:24
The people say that they're too early and there's like a whole mix up with their schedule.
00:56:30
But they were able to find their host family, these two young women, and they checked in there and they plan to do some sightseeing while they figured out what the problem was.
00:56:38
So on April. I'm sorry, but that gives me this uncomfortable feeling. Yeah. It's starting already.
00:56:44
Yeah. Because when you travel that much and you're saying they took a plane and then they took a boat and they had to do it, they're like clearly going to a slightly remote location.
00:56:53
Yeah. And not knowing the language completely. Right. And then people are like, oh, no, no, you're not supposed to be here.
00:57:00
Even if it was a hotel in the United States, I'd be like, uh-oh. Yeah. So imagine you're so far from home.
00:57:06
Totally. But you have your best friend with you. And so that's comforting. But you're also two women in a foreign country, which is just scary to begin with.
00:57:13
Yeah. So they find their host family, they check in there, and they're going to do some sightseeing.
00:57:18
On April 1st, 2014, Chris and Lisanne, they take a taxi from their host family's home and dropped off at the famous Pianista Trail.
00:57:27
It's a trail that leads them to the Continental Divide, which is like that saying, the Continental Divide, gives me like goosebumps, doesn't it?
00:57:34
Yeah. It feels so huge and like a cool indie band name. Yeah. Doesn't it? Oh, that would be a good name.
00:57:39
By the way, all these pronunciations are really A+. Thank you. I'm trying. Yeah, you're doing great.
00:57:44
Thank you. So just in case we're all wondering, like I was earlier, the continental divide is the crest that marks the spot where the where the country's water breaks for the Pacific Ocean in one direction and the Caribbean in the other.
00:58:00
So it's like dividing the two oceans. They both go in either direction. Look at this way. Look at that way.
00:58:05
Got it. Here you are. East, west. OK. Didn't get that far. Sorry. I'm pretty sure we had a book.
00:58:14
Oh, yeah. Like in the National Geographic series style. And it was called the Continental Divide.
00:58:20
And I would look at it, but not read it. That was my big thing. It's like pictures only and I'm out.
00:58:25
You and I know words are overrated. God, information is dumb. I can't read. Okay.
00:58:32
So this hike that they were going to take, which goes up and back, the Pianista Trail,
00:58:38
it's like a famous trail. It should just take four or five hours to get there and back.
00:58:42
And if they had gone further, it turns into kind of like wild terrain and they don't suggest you go that way.
00:58:49
So even though this is a trail that's famous, it wouldn't have been suggested that two foreigners take that trail themselves.
00:58:59
And they'd actually met with a potential guide earlier in the day. And this guide had suggested that he'll take them on the trail.
00:59:06
They can spend the night at his ranch and then come back. They had turned him down for some reason, but had agreed to come see him the next day.
00:59:13
So it's kind of weird that they were then just like, but let's go on this. I think they were expecting it to be just a small, casual hike.
00:59:20
Okay. So I think they're smart to not spend the night at just a stranger's ranch.
00:59:24
Right. That's probably what they were thinking. And they'll take a regular hike the next day.
00:59:28
But so they just, it seems like they just wanted to take a nice hike and kill some time.
00:59:32
Yeah. So they planned to hike through the scenic forest around the Baru volcano, which is an active volcano.
00:59:39
And that would bring them through the cloud forest, which is because the height is so fucking heighted.
00:59:45
It's through the clouds. Yeah. And there's also waterfalls and shit. Amazing. Yeah.
00:59:51
Judging by the clothes and what they brought with them they obviously didn plan on being there long They dressed in just shorts and tank tops and only brought a light backpack one of their passports a little bit of money their cell phones and a digital camera They weren planning to need more than a snack and some water nothing more than that
01:00:09
This was not a long-term hike. Not at all. Yeah. They were never seen alive again.
01:00:13
Okay. So there's so much. One of the mysteries about this case is that there's so many different
01:00:20
versions of it, of, you know, who this belonged to, what happened here. One of those things is
01:00:26
that there was a dog that had started the hike with them, a dog named Blue that might have belonged
01:00:31
to the host family, it might have belonged to the restaurant that they had had lunch at family.
01:00:36
But the dog had gone with them. And when the dog returned that evening without the girls,
01:00:40
the family who the dog belonged to and the host family began to worry about where the girls were,
01:00:45
because the temperatures at night in the cloud forest would have been in the 50s and 60s
01:00:49
at that elevation, which means hypothermia would have been a risk, especially since they were
01:00:54
dressed so lightly. The host family searched around the area, around their home, and just
01:01:00
some light searching, but decided to wait until morning to authorities not really knowing.
01:01:05
I don't think they, you know, the girls hadn't left behind a note saying where they were going.
01:01:08
I don't think they knew that they were going just for a hike. So they could have been anywhere.
01:01:12
Right. And they probably didn't, they didn't want to raise an alarm immediately.
01:01:15
Right. But by the next morning on April 2nd, the women hadn't shown up to their appointment with that local tour guide we had talked about who was supposed to show them around.
01:01:25
And so the teachers from the language school reported that women missing to police.
01:01:30
So the locals began to search for the women on foot. But the authorities, thinking the girls were just probably out partying or something and not actually missing, didn't begin the search until April 6th.
01:01:40
Oh, no. So they had left on the 1st and it was until the 6th that they began to actually search.
01:01:45
but the locals had been searching. And at that point, the authorities asked the locals to stop
01:01:52
searching so they could take over. And a local named John Tornbloom, he was a guide with more
01:01:57
than 10 years of experience who had been looking for the girls. He said that, quote, the rescue
01:02:02
operation was a total clusterfuck. Oh, no. Yeah. So when the families of the women found out that
01:02:10
they were missing, and these were two really reliable girls, when they found out that their
01:02:14
reliable daughters were missing, they flew straight to Panama and they brought with them
01:02:19
detectives from the Netherlands. So along with the local police, they searched the forest for 10 days
01:02:24
using dogs, helicopters, and ground teams. The parents offered a $30,000 reward, but there was
01:02:30
no sign and no trace of the women at all. Like they had disappeared. After a 10 day search without
01:02:37
any leads, local authorities called the search off. I know. Then about 10 weeks later, after the
01:02:44
search was called off in mid-June 2014 an indigenous woman from the nobi tribe brought
01:02:50
lizan's blue backpack to the police whoa she was like yo i fucking found this in a rice paddy and
01:02:57
the banks of the river the river was so powerful that the locals called it the serpent so it's like
01:03:02
a crazy river she's like i fucking found it near a rice paddy near her village um of alta romero
01:03:09
It was at least an eight hour walk from where the girls had last been seen. But the woman, the indigenous woman was like, it was not there the day before.
01:03:17
I'm sure of it. So she brought it in. And I think everyone must have known at the time that they were looking for these two missing tourists.
01:03:22
Yeah. Inside the backpack were two pairs of sunglasses, $83 in cash, Lisanne's passport, a water bottle, Lisanne's camera, because she had brought a separate camera, two bras and the women's phones.
01:03:36
So I'm assuming that women were like, you know, when I got home today after our lunch, I took my bra off.
01:03:40
That's the first thing I fucking did. Yeah. It's just FYI. Sure. So I'm assuming that's why they were in there.
01:03:46
Yeah. The police assumed they were like, oh, it must have traveled up the river and gotten caught in branches and shit.
01:03:52
But here's the thing. The backpack was totally dry and everything in it, including the camera, was in working order.
01:03:57
Okay. Right. So it was not probably not in water. No. Yeah. So both the info from the phones that were in there and the camera were able to tell like somewhat of a story of where the girls had traveled in their days following the disappearance.
01:04:10
So with the phone, the first emergency call had been attempted from Chris's home the night the girls were last seen on the first.
01:04:19
So that night they had left around 11 o'clock in the afternoon to go hiking on what was supposed to be a four or five hour hike.
01:04:24
hike. And at 9.39 p.m. on April 1st, someone tried to call emergency services from one of
01:04:32
their phones. But there's no signal. They're in the fucking rainforest. They're in the cloud forest.
01:04:37
That's right. Then over the next four days, 77 attempts are made to call the authorities,
01:04:44
the police, both using 122, which is the emergency number in the Netherlands, and 911,
01:04:51
which is the emergency number in Panama. So it's like, can you like, what do you, who do you, if you end up, I call 911, right?
01:04:59
Yeah. But I think it, I think in any state now or any country now, you press 911 and it would go to emergency services.
01:05:06
Right. That might not be true. I mean, if only, I think there's, yeah, there is.
01:05:11
I remember this, but there was a story of like people trying to do it and it not going through
01:05:15
because they didn't have coverage or whatever, where it's like, if this is what you're trying to do, it'll go through no matter what.
01:05:20
Yeah. And there's another thing like it's 2014, which seems like not that long ago, but it is five years ago.
01:05:26
Yeah. Digitally and technically. Right. Ten years ago. Yeah. So using the call logs, police were able to come up with an outline of the time the girl spent missing in the forests.
01:05:35
Can you fucking imagine being so scary? This is why I stay home at all times because they were in the jungle.
01:05:44
Out of the 77 calls that they made, only one managed to make contact with a signal.
01:05:50
but it broke up between like one or two seconds later, which is like even worse that they're like,
01:05:54
Oh my God it just signal And then it fucking goes away Yep What a nightmare After April 5th Lisanne battery dies and the phone is not used again But Chris phone would not make any more calls either but was intermittently used to search for reception
01:06:11
So there was no more like emergency calls put out, but you could tell it was open and turned on.
01:06:16
Then on April 6th, a bunch of unsuccessful attempts were made to unlock Chris's phone because she had a PIN number to unlock the phone.
01:06:24
So someone got the phone and was trying to put the PIN number in, but they put the number in wrong.
01:06:29
So it probably wasn't Chris or she was dehydrated and couldn't think of the correct one.
01:06:34
Exactly. It never received the correct number again. So it was never able to open again and try to reach emergency services.
01:06:42
By April 11th, both phones were dead. All right. Now let's talk about Lisanne's camera.
01:06:47
A Canon PowerShot SX270. I know it well. Promo code murder. So the digital memory card had over 100 images found.
01:06:59
And strangely, the battery is still half full when the investigators get to it 10 weeks later.
01:07:05
Whoa. So shout out to the Canon PowerShot. That's a good battery, ladies and gentlemen.
01:07:09
Yeah. But it also means that they hadn't been really using the camera that much.
01:07:13
Right. And there was no signal on it. So they couldn't track it with GPS on the camera itself.
01:07:19
Right. Which I think you can now. Can you? Yeah. Well, also, you have to think like what they would if they were panicking and walking around lost in the forest, they're not going to be like, hold on a second.
01:07:28
Yeah. What's the camera going to do for you? Right. Nothing. And you would like to think that they would then start taking pictures to tell the story.
01:07:35
But that's a very dark concept. It is. And then also they say that like a lot of people will use it to leave messages for their family or they'll leave a message as to where they're going and how to find them.
01:07:46
But those aren't found. Okay. However, there are some photos found. Oh, 100. the first of the photos on the camera are taken the morning that they left april 1st that women
01:07:56
uh are shown on the beginning of the trail for towards the continental divide there's nothing
01:08:02
strange about them they're fucking selfies they're shit that 21 and 22 year girls would take scenery
01:08:08
you know i'll take a photo of you you of me selfies together they look happy and normal all is going
01:08:14
well um but in the in the last few shots from that day it looks as though the women are following
01:08:21
an indigenous trail down the opposite side of the crest. And it places them about an hour from the
01:08:27
top of the divide. So that's part of where, you know, the indigenous people won't even go during
01:08:31
the rainy season themselves. Like, it's just these, you know, weird trails. And you're supposed to,
01:08:38
I feel like a lot of people when they take a hike, they think the trail wraps around back to where
01:08:42
they were going. But this is one that you have to turn around and go back the other way. But there
01:08:45
was no sign saying don't go further than this at the time right so um they're still heading downhill
01:08:52
away from bucchette the last image uh that we have of chris kremer's face is her turning to look back
01:08:59
to the camera and at this point she uh she seems pissed off she seems upset and distressed and
01:09:06
like where the fuck are we going and why the fuck are you taking a photo of me right now like we need
01:09:09
to concentrate. Yeah. She seems upset. Yeah. Then things get strange. On April 8th, so they went
01:09:17
missing on the first April 8th, 90 flash photos are taken between 1am and 4am. I don't like that.
01:09:25
Apparently they and I've seen the photos. It reminds me of that one crazy story with the
01:09:29
snowstorm and the avalanche and like what happened to those people. Oh, the Dilatov Pass. Thank you.
01:09:33
My God. It's just like that, where there's like weird photos that don't mean anything to us,
01:09:39
but have to mean something. Right. So you can tell they're deep in the jungle. Like there's
01:09:44
some of them, there's nothing in focus. You can just see the rain coming down and some rocks and
01:09:49
trees and stuff. It's in near complete darkness. So the timing between photos is also interesting
01:09:55
because they are very from just a few seconds as fast as the camera could take them or 15 minutes
01:10:01
apart and more. So it shows that it was already raining pretty hard. And a few photos show that
01:10:07
they were possibly near a river or ravine. And some photos show a twig. So it looks like they're
01:10:13
taking photos of markers that they're setting up to remind themselves either of where they have
01:10:19
already gone through. So maybe they're making circles and are freaking out about it. And like,
01:10:23
we've already been here. Let's take a photo. Yeah. So they put a marker up with a twig with
01:10:29
plastic bags and candy wrappers on top of a rock. And they also used a roll of toilet paper to spell
01:10:34
something out on a boulder and put a rusty mirror in the center of the letters. Maybe it was to
01:10:39
reflect the sunlight the next day and flag a passing helicopter. But it's speculated that
01:10:45
maybe these photos were taken as a reference point in an attempt to mark where they were,
01:10:48
like I said, so to make sure they weren't going in circles. Right. Yeah. Or they were using the
01:10:55
cameras flash to get light to see the path in front of them. Yes. Because the thing I keep thinking of, because that's what I thought of first.
01:11:03
Yeah. Because of rear window where you're like, you feel because you're also in the jungle.
01:11:10
Just the spiders alone. You don't even have to get into snakes. Spiders alone. Dude.
01:11:15
So you and I are walking in the blackness of the jungle. They said something about jumping venomous snakes.
01:11:21
No. No. So if you feel anything, then you're like, what's on me? And then that's the only way you'd be able to see things.
01:11:28
Oh, I don't like, or what did I just walk into? What did I just hit? Like, you can't see in front of you.
01:11:33
Yeah. You're lost in the jungle. Yeah. Horrifying. Or is it to help searchers locate them with the flash?
01:11:40
They think someone's trying to find them. So maybe they'll see the flash. Oh, yeah.
01:11:44
Come get them. The timestamp on these photos means that one of the women that, so it's the eighth at this
01:11:51
point, which means that the women, one of them or both of them had already managed to survive more
01:11:55
than a week without food or shelter in the wilderness. Wow. It's speculated that perhaps
01:12:00
By now, one of the women was badly hurt or perhaps even dead at this point. Most likely that was Chris based on the photos.
01:12:07
And also she couldn't get into Leanne's phone. So, oh, right. Or Leanne couldn't get to her phone.
01:12:14
So, you know, because she couldn't ask her about it. Yeah. And there's also a single close up photo that shows it looks like it shows a wound to the right side of Chris's head in the temple area.
01:12:26
and blood matting her distinctive strawberry blonde hair. So, I know, it's fucking awful.
01:12:33
It's horrible. So sad. When the backpack is turned in, there's a new search put together along the Serpent River
01:12:40
where the backpack was found. There, Chris's jean shorts are found zipped up and folded neatly on top of a rock
01:12:47
near where the backpack had been found. So some say that maybe that was a marker
01:12:52
where they were, you know, had been like, let's put a marker here. We've run out of stuff to put down. Others say that the shorts were
01:13:00
actually found in the river and someone else took them out and folded them up, like thinking they
01:13:03
were being helpful in some way. Or maybe, I was thinking maybe, you know, in hypothermia,
01:13:08
when you start taking your clothes off, it could have been that, but they were zipped up and like
01:13:11
folded and put down. Yeah, it wasn't like you'd be, you'd toss it off and walk away.
01:13:16
Exactly. So it was probably, yeah, who knows. So two months later, after this is found,
01:13:21
This time, even closer to where the backpack was discovered, a skeletal part of a pelvis, as well as a boot with a foot still inside, were found.
01:13:32
I know. Soon, at least 33 scattered bones were discovered along the same riverbank.
01:13:39
DNA tests confirmed that they belonged to the girls. So, Lisanne's bones looked as if they had decomposed naturally because there was still bits of flesh attached to them.
01:13:49
but chris's bones were stark white and looked at as if they had been bleached so like maybe she had
01:13:54
died and the sun had bleached her bones but it's only two months later so a panamanian forensic
01:14:00
anthropologist said that the that under magnification there was no marks on the bones at
01:14:05
all so this means so i was like okay then they hadn't been stabbed that was my first thought
01:14:10
but then i realized it also means that there is no claw marks or bite marks that would suggest
01:14:15
scavengers, you know, tossing these 33 bones all over the fucking place. Right. So that's actually
01:14:22
suspicious. Yes. Right. And so and no marks would also indicate that they hadn't been broken up on
01:14:29
the river rocks either. Like they hadn't been, you know, died down the river. Yeah. So the other
01:14:35
thing is the scattered bones being found is weird because most surrounding victims, as the locals
01:14:41
will say, are usually found in one piece further downstream, or they get stuck in like the rocks
01:14:48
and are found later. And sometimes they drag the river, even a year later, the bodies are found
01:14:55
intact. So it's weird that they are found skeletal and like in little pieces like that as well.
01:15:02
Yeah. A former cadaver lab supervisor said it's almost unheard of for drowning victims to break
01:15:08
up into tiny fragments and almost impossible for it to happen in less than two months,
01:15:15
which is the time between when the girls went missing in April when their bone shards were
01:15:19
recovered in June. Yeah. At this stage of the search, proper police procedures. And so, of
01:15:25
course, these are totally, you know, everyone is saying that they weren't followed and the police
01:15:29
fucked up on this And police procedures were largely ignored No search grid was made at the time And no soil samples were taken like from the backpack and from where they said it was found or from the boots to where they had left to kind of just see where you know what was their route and where they gone
01:15:48
Maybe we can find more info. None of that was done. And when the backpack was finally fingerprinted, over 30 different unidentified fingerprints were lifted from it.
01:15:57
There were 13 on the backpack. This is according to Scarlet, the Scarlet Letter blog that she wrote that 13 were on the backpack, 12 on the phones and camera, as well as six different ones on the bras.
01:16:09
But see, there's no chain of command. So it could have just been like people freaked out at the police.
01:16:14
They pulled stuff out and there was no fingerprints. You know, no one's finger. So no one went back over and said, no, no, no.
01:16:20
This is the this is the woman who actually brought this in. Exactly. This is her family member.
01:16:24
Right. Yeah, exactly. Okay. When forensic examiners couldn't decide if there was foul play or if it was an accident, the Panamanian government simply decided that the case was closed, thinking it was just a drowning. By November, the Attorney General publicly announced that the women had died of a hiking accident after having been, quote, dragged to death in the river system.
01:16:46
people theorize that they rushed to wrap these cases up to protect tourism and which is a huge
01:16:52
part of the um panama economy so further investigation by the daily beast and so they
01:16:58
got all these fucking unclassified documents somehow like all the photos and the autopsy
01:17:03
reports and all this shit they got a hold of which is crazy and daily beast gets on it yeah dude i
01:17:09
couldn't have written this whole piece without the investigation they had done yeah so uh further
01:17:14
investigation by the Daily Beast writer into the case in 2017 uncovered enough new evidence to
01:17:20
suggest foul play, as well as possible links to other murders in the area. Including the Dutch
01:17:25
girls, there have been at least 25 unsolved murders and disappearances in this remote rural
01:17:30
area. Since 2009, victims include many locals, the majority of them are women and children,
01:17:37
as well as tourists, including an American woman named Catherine Johanit, who was 23,
01:17:42
who was murdered in February 2017. Some sources say the real number of disappeared could be higher.
01:17:50
And there's, I mean, there's so many. I've stayed up all night fucking reading about this shit before.
01:17:54
There's so many theories out there that maybe the government ignored or there was a cover up or the remains were thrown in the river
01:18:02
to get rid of them or deliberately planted. And there's all this like cartel hitmen and cannibals
01:18:10
and, you know, some slightly fucking racist shit happening. Sure. Supernatural forces, organ traffickers, like this kind of thing.
01:18:17
And the local guide who was the last person to see them, remember who they turned down.
01:18:21
Of course, he's become a suspect in a lot of the minds of people who are trying to figure out what happened.
01:18:27
And he's fucking going crazy about it. Yeah. So, but to this day, the disappearance and deaths,
01:18:32
as well as the mysterious, weird fucking clues left behind, make the death of Chris Kremers and Lisanne Froon still a mystery.
01:18:41
And that is the disappearance and death of Chris Kremers and Lisanne Froon. Wow.
01:18:46
We'll put the photos up because they're creepy. And it's just so sad, these two girls in the prime of their life, you know,
01:18:53
going to try to make a difference and to, you know, start the beginning of the rest of their lives.
01:19:00
And no matter what happened, what they went through is a nightmare. That's right.
01:19:06
Yeah, it's not always like they were, it's not always just because it's a murder.
01:19:11
It's like, it could just be you take a wrong turn. I personally I think that that what happened Yeah I personally think that they got lost and everything that happened from the first on is two panicked women you know trying to get home
01:19:29
Just trying to get home. It makes me think of, you know, that happens in the Angeles National Forest a lot.
01:19:34
And you couldn't be closer to a major U.S. city. That's right. And people constantly are like, take a wrong turn and have to get helicoptered out.
01:19:42
Yeah. of the and you and like also thinking of that as a forest when it's like there's not that much
01:19:47
you know what I mean it's like we're not talking about um you know the black forest in Germany or
01:19:54
something it's like it's pretty sparse but it's nature it's like it's unpredictable and you don't
01:20:00
know what to do in an emergency half the time like right this is why I stay home it's all and
01:20:04
and it sounds like if they were like oh we're gonna go for like a four-hour hike they're not
01:20:08
gonna have flashlights they're not gonna have batteries of any kind they don't think they're
01:20:10
going that far they think they're they're following and like well-known trail but i was
01:20:14
looking at the photos and some of it just looks like riverbeds you know when it looks like a trail
01:20:18
but it's actually not yeah it's just some of it's crazy that the like the the uh walls of this trail
01:20:24
go up around you it's beautiful it's gorgeous go fucking adventure and have fun but but take a
01:20:30
battery a flashlight um a bunch of stuff know your friend's password for their phone luna bar
01:20:37
that's crazy isn't that crazy yeah wow good one thank you um do you have a fucking hooray
01:20:42
absolutely good all right mine is simple vince showed it to me last night it's my new favorite
01:20:50
instagram it brings me so much joy it's just ups dogs and it's fucking ups workers on their route
01:20:59
and the dogs they meet along the way oh my god and a lot of them are like a dog like they show
01:21:05
at the foot of their truck, the dog that they always see waiting for a treat. Look at that.
01:21:09
Oh my God. And then sometimes it's a deer and sometimes it's more dogs and there's one with a squirrel. And
01:21:17
it's just like this, it's just dogs being happy to see the UPS drivers. There's a couple of dogs
01:21:23
dressed as UPS drivers. It's the cutest. It's the most brilliant marketing fucking thing I've
01:21:30
ever seen in my life. It's so good. Also, because those people really have to. There's, I can't
01:21:35
remember. Oh, no. I can't remember if it's FedEx. If the guy that comes and brings stuff to me is
01:21:41
FedEx. I think he's FedEx, actually. Because George, my dog sounds like a monster when she's
01:21:48
in like an echoey hallway, barking to make sure that the person doesn't come in the door. She's
01:21:53
scary sounding. And then I open the door and there's people who are like, you know, flinch or
01:21:57
whatever. And the, she got past me and got out and the guy was so sweet. Cause I was like,
01:22:04
here's the lawsuit here. Here it comes or this lunatic dog. But all she wants to do is like
01:22:09
scare the people. And then the second they pet her, she doesn't care what they do.
01:22:12
It's so smart. It's so, I mean, it must be so terrifying to be a male person or a fucking,
01:22:17
you know, delivery driver. And you just don't know how the dog's going to react to you.
01:22:22
Also just, yeah, this is a great, yeah. I just think it's brilliant and it's Incredible photos.
01:22:28
It's so good. And I just was stressed out last night and just scrolled through it going,
01:22:32
look at this one. He was the one who showed it to me. Look at this one. It's really cute.
01:22:36
There's one with a raccoon who's just like stoked. It's like they know their drivers, you know?
01:22:41
Is the driver giving the raccoon a tiny packet? Here's your pine cone, sir. And he takes it up to his house.
01:22:48
Oh, and then he writes a review on Amazon of his pine cone. This pine cone is a little sappy.
01:22:54
Three and a half stars out of five I was definitely disappointed and heartbroken That awesome Mine is equally as simple but it just
01:23:05
that I have begun a swimming regimen that is saving my life. Because, you know, I overthink everything.
01:23:15
So when I try to do, get active and do, make adjustments, I'm always like, yeah, but it's going to be this.
01:23:20
Nice to meet you. Hello. Hello, twin. But I've just been getting in that pool every single day because because also it's been boiling hot in Los Angeles.
01:23:30
Yeah. Luckily. But the way it feels afterwards, it's just like, ah, I get it. I get exercise now.
01:23:36
I love it. It makes sense. So it's just very like calming and it makes me chill out and it makes me feel like I've done something good.
01:23:44
So I don't have that like creepy self-loathing thing that I think I'm just a touch addicted to.
01:23:51
Well, we're attuned to it. yes because it's what we're used to yeah yeah so it's been really nice and also then i can see the
01:24:00
difference in the tone in my legs like i can just i can feel my clothes being slightly less tight
01:24:06
and it feels great so should we do what we did a while back of like do yoga once a week
01:24:11
yeah like what if we do like everyone pick your one thing and do it once a week yeah you don't have to do it every day all of the listeners are like yeah we've been doing oh shit
01:24:19
but no let's do it i mean i haven't i mean i don't yeah let's do it hard let's re-approach it
01:24:26
okay it's the like for me exercise is hard because it makes me feel humongous and sweaty and like at
01:24:33
my you know my all my bones are gonna break yeah but of course swimming is zero impact and feels
01:24:38
great and feels like you're really getting something done yeah everything counts so yeah
01:24:43
we just build on we take our small pieces and build yeah that's the idea let's do it let's do it
01:24:49
Yay. Thanks for listening, guys. Guys, thanks for being here with us again. One more week.
01:24:55
That's right. We love you. We do. We appreciate you. We definitely do. And stay sexy.
01:25:02
And don't get murdered. Goodbye. Elvis, you want a cookie? Good boy. Bro, from the show last night to this drive, why is it never chill?
01:25:13
Because this is our life. Backstage, on the road, it's loud, messy, real. And that's the best part. Whole crew, no plan, just moving. Good thing Nissan builds for that
01:25:24
kind of chaos. Not just test tracks, real life scenes, late nights, road trips, all of it.
01:25:30
That's why it holds up. Nissan was ranked number one in initial quality among mainstream brands by
01:25:36
JD Power. Yeah, you can tell. 2026 Nissan Rogue built for what really happens. For JD Power 2025
01:25:43
U.S. Initial Quality Study Award information. Visit jdpower.com slash awards. Awards based on 2025 model year.
01:25:50
Newer models may be shown. Across America, money is being abandoned. By taking a few seconds to check lift before your next ride,
01:25:59
you can give money a better home inside your wallet. Save the money. Check lift.
01:26:06
This episode is brought to you in part by Vital Farms. Have you noticed that the egg section at the grocery store has gotten very complicated lately?
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