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Because nobody plans anything, bro. Good thing the Rogue's ready like that. For real.
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plan as of january 2026 for full offer details visit boost mobile.com My favorite world
00:02:25
What's up, Dallas? I filmed you! now we have to pass out some consent forms to everybody just a quick release
00:02:58
hope you brought pens look it we're on a thing don't look don't look at it they're gonna they can tell that my nails are what i'm calling dalmatian uh that's the new thing
00:03:15
I picked them all off. That's what happened, really. As you chip off black nail polish,
00:03:21
you slowly become one of Cruella DeVille's most coveted animals. The Dalmatian. You know.
00:03:31
You know how it is. Hi, friend. I mean, how's everyone doing? Thanks. I feel like this setup,
00:03:42
more than any we've ever done before, really feels like we're about to sell people a timeshare.
00:03:47
Doesn't it? Yeah. We got our little earpieces. It's real mega churchy in here right now.
00:03:54
It's real. Open to Leviticus 5.16, please. Quick question. Have you heard the good word?
00:04:02
Oh. Tell me. Speaking of. Guess what? Guess what the good word is? Promo code murder.
00:04:11
That's right. Right? I, um, that reminds me, when we were on the plane two days ago, I was sitting, we, like, got last-minute seats, so we were all in window seats, so it was an accident.
00:04:23
And I was next to some dude who wouldn't stop highlighting and writing in a book, which means, like, I was being constantly elbowed.
00:04:30
And I was really getting angry at it, about to turn and yell at him. And when I turned, it was the Bible.
00:04:36
And I was like, shit, I can't scream at him. And then you looked into his face, and it was Jesus Christ, our Savior and Lord.
00:04:45
I did. Taking an American flight real quick. That's right. Real quick. Extra leg room.
00:04:51
He can bump it up for that. That's right. That's it. And I screamed in his face.
00:04:56
No, I didn't. No. I just said, excuse me, and I asked the dude next to Vince, and he'd trade with me.
00:05:01
I said, do you want a fucking window seat? And he was like, yeah. And then I see the two of them getting along super well, the Bible guy and this new guy.
00:05:08
And I was like, oh, I'm a fucking terrible person. Oh, it's me. You know, the guy that you asked to sit in your seat,
00:05:15
it turns out that his parents always neglected his left arm. Just would not touch it.
00:05:21
Wouldn't touch it. Hated it. Told him it was ugly and bad. Boom. Here's this guy rubbing up against it from the word go.
00:05:30
So I basically, like, I'm the best person in the world. Yeah, you are. That's what you're saying.
00:05:34
Absolutely is the moral of this story. is that was actually a meet cute at the beginning of a movie
00:05:39
you're not starring in. It's their movie. It's not your movie. Oh. Oh, come on. That's cute.
00:05:44
Hey, I have to right now in front of everybody thank Georgia because I, as I always will, there will always
00:05:52
be a little bit of outfit drama for me before we do these shows mostly because subconsciously I do not want to have to put on the Spanx military grade body armor that I wearing right now I hate it
00:06:06
I'm a little bummed, real quick side note, about your Spanx military grade, because we
00:06:11
had a thing for a little while where I was helping her get into it, and it was kind of
00:06:15
this fun bonding thing for me, because I love, to me, if you show your friend your undergarments,
00:06:20
that's friendship. Right. So we did a thing, and then you realized. Especially when you're kind of, you weirdly are shapen in a way that you, well, here's the deal.
00:06:29
And I was livid for, I don't know, I guess the last five months we've been on tour.
00:06:34
Because I was like, I would pull it up and then it would stop right at like this chunk of back fat where I'm like, first of all, I didn't know that was there.
00:06:41
Secondly, clearly they make these for women who have rolls of fat on their back.
00:06:46
So why in God's name would you have to give yourself carpal tunnel to get the thing up onto your body?
00:06:52
Yeah. I was so angry. And then you're sweating. sweating like a nut and then I have to pull in Georgia to be like I need you to pull up the back
00:06:59
of my girdle for fuck's sake and I'm like yay like so excited about it pushing her way into
00:07:06
the bathroom well last night I discovered that I just had everything on the tightest possible thing
00:07:12
like I had it all on small and then I just unhooked it for and I was like I don't need you
00:07:16
I'm sad I didn't realize I thought it bugged you no I love it okay we should talk about stuff more
00:07:24
Let's talk about things. So I usually, I usually, I usually will leave one thing behind so that maybe there's a chance that I just get to wear sweats on stage.
00:07:37
That's always my subconscious is working at all times to be like, well, I guess you better just wear those sweats you wore here.
00:07:43
So I unpack my stuff tonight and I'm like, oh, fuck, I forgot my tights. And George is like, you can have mine.
00:07:50
And I was like, fuck, okay. That'd be great, actually. That's going to look really cute.
00:07:56
Shit. Oh, I should have said no. No, you shouldn't have. No, they look great. Come on, we're in Dallas doing a show.
00:08:05
Then I fall backwards and break my back. Is this a new pop of color Karen? Yes. Because I think this is great.
00:08:13
I think by the summertime, I'm going to be wearing red and yellow polka dots. And I'm going to be fucking, my goth days will be behind me.
00:08:22
No. Starting with these purple tights. But do you remember on our first tour ever, I had to borrow tights from you then.
00:08:29
And I still have them in my drawer, hot pink tights. Oh, my God. From 2016. That's right.
00:08:34
We go back three fucking years. Thank you. Thank you so much. We've laughed. We've grown.
00:08:43
We've loved. I've taken two full pairs of Georgia's tights. And that's how you know something.
00:08:50
That's how you know something. How about your outfit? Oh, this is... Yeah. Bow to your partner.
00:08:59
Did I just show you my underwear? Did you really? And it was on the big screen. Oh, no.
00:09:11
I was wearing tights the last two nights I did that, and no one saw my ass. Can we roll that tape back on the big screen, please?
00:09:20
No, never again. Shit. I blame the murderina who gave me this dress, Sarah Duke from fucking Canada.
00:09:29
I'm coming for you. You're going to blame her? Yeah, it's her fault. How do you figure?
00:09:33
Listen, because A, B, and C. She should have sewn in kick pants in that dress? That's right.
00:09:42
That's fucking right. Sarah, where are the bicycle shorts? I demanded that you sew into my dress.
00:09:49
I can't stop looking up there now. Okay, I'm going to look away. You should take a selfie of yourself in front of that screen, don't you think?
00:09:57
I do. Should I send it to my dad? That's weird. my dad texts and said have fun in
00:10:12
Insert City tonight because he just doesn't ever know where I am he doesn't know where we are
00:10:18
I like to afford my dad the itinerary that Vince sends us, Vince Averill who's our tour manager and George's husband
00:10:25
thank you you do that? oh I thought neither of us opened the itinerary you know who opens the itinerary
00:10:33
Jim Kilgariff and he's very interested so he will basically read the email very thoroughly.
00:10:39
He knows exactly when I land and take off now. I'll be walking down out of the corridor to get off the plane
00:10:47
and immediately get a text, how was the flight? Where it's like, ew. But then he also loves
00:10:53
to look up the theater and then just tell me. He'll be like, Karen, tonight there's 4,500 seats in that
00:10:59
theater. Tell me about what I'm about to go do. I love that between Vince and Jim, and they have
00:11:07
similar personalities. They do. We've just got everything covered. I know. We don't have to think about a thing.
00:11:11
Except for our underpants. Tights and underwear and not showing them to the whole world. Look, sex sells and that's what we're here
00:11:19
to do tonight. Because ladies and gentlemen, we have some exciting timeshares in Mazatlan
00:11:27
that we think are perfect for your family and a weird relative that has money. Jesus loves them. Have you heard
00:11:35
about Jesus? He loves them. I wonder if there's anyone that sells timeshares during like a mass
00:11:42
or at some kind of a church service. They've got to. If you've got to combine those two,
00:11:46
just because people are busy these days. A lot of people have two and three jobs.
00:11:49
They don't have time to do like a Saturday timeshare Sunday mass. Yeah. I call it mass.
00:11:54
It not a mass Temple combine them all of them non Just a hang Let call it a religious hang Speaking of this is my favorite part of the podcast
00:12:09
Nice transition. Really nice transition. Thank you. This is Karen Kilgaris. This is Georgia Hardstark.
00:12:16
Thank you. Thank you. You remember from the underwear earlier. um steven's here under here
00:12:26
no no no we left him at home steven's at home uh head engineering the exactly right podcast network
00:12:36
um that's right that's right they gave us a podcast network they just were like do you want one we're like yeah yeah we'll have steven run it you know what i just realized what's
00:12:48
this. I put a pin on my dress tonight because the last few nights I've been flashing my bra
00:12:52
on accident because I'm not used to cleavage happening. And then I showed everyone my fucking
00:12:56
underwear tonight. Just start streaking at the beginning of every show. I think it's what you
00:13:01
want. I guess. It's natural. Is it? Is it? It's not. It isn't. Should we sit down? Should we?
00:13:11
Oh. Ooh. Well, are we good enough to? I don't know. Are we mid-century modern enough to?
00:13:20
I mean. Where are they from? Anderson Cooper's house. Oh, my God. These are. Oh, they don't spin.
00:13:28
They don't spin. You have to manually turn them anytime you want to. I better. Okay, let's cheat out then.
00:13:34
Let's do it. There we go. Oh, yeah. These are cushy. Good stuff. Are you spinning in your chair?
00:13:44
A little bit. Oh, wait a second. This fits my butt perfectly. I know. Thank you.
00:13:52
Good job, Dallas. Thank you, Dallas. Here's your extra towel. Is this one mine? That's yours.
00:14:00
Last night we were at a venue that had box suites for people who were ticket holders.
00:14:07
so yeah so real it was we had to give them this like extra long speech of what this is god but
00:14:15
they stayed i feel bad for season ticket holders that shows that we go do because as you probably
00:14:21
have heard us tell this story if you listen to the podcast and then if you don't i'll get i'll
00:14:25
get to you in a minute but there have been times and i think the last time it wasn't in austin
00:14:30
where there were two women who showed up at our show yeah and they were uh season ticket holders
00:14:35
for that theater, and they were led to believe or put together that what they were about to
00:14:41
see was the sequel to Phantom of the Opera. Yeah. And they... It's not. It is. It is.
00:14:53
This isn't. Oh, yeah. That's what you're here for. First of all, it ends when the Phantom of the Opera ends.
00:14:58
There's no other part. but uh the reason we know that is because the the murderino's sitting next to them and the audience
00:15:06
caught wind of it more like this is the best thing of all time and then told us in the meet and greet
00:15:11
i want my money back yeah i would be i would be devastated actually um but then there was another
00:15:17
time where and i think those ladies ended up staying and liking it which is a miracle um right
00:15:23
But then there was another time where there were a couple of season ticket holders who thought they would love the show because they thought it was a murder mystery dinner theater.
00:15:37
It's not. It's not, you guys. We serve dinner. I hope you guys like pot roast. Georgia made one small pot roast in the back.
00:15:46
Everyone gets a tiny piece. But tell them what this really is. Oh, okay, but actually what this is, for the people who have been dragged along here by their mates, friends, spouses, or neighbors.
00:15:59
Which doesn't stop happening. This is a, if you don't know, this is a true crime comedy podcast.
00:16:05
There's some people who immediately flinch at that title. They don't like it, and they're offended by it, and they think it's wrong that you would combine the worst thing that could happen in life,
00:16:14
which is murder or violent crime and comedy. And so this is the part where we explain that George and I have always been interested in true crime since we were very young.
00:16:22
But we also have coped with the heavy, terrible shit in life with humor. And so because of that, our conversations about these things are usually infused with humor.
00:16:35
And, of course, we have respect. It's like you have to listen to the podcast to know who we are, to get it.
00:16:40
The thing is, what we're saying is, if you're offended, we cordially now invite you to get the fuck out.
00:16:46
Seriously. Except for the ushers Not the ushers who can't leave They can't leave and
00:16:57
they're right to be mad actually, it isn't fair We forgot to tell the story of getting picked up
00:17:04
this afternoon Guys So we get picked up at the hotel by someone who works at the venue and brings us over
00:17:12
where Vince has been setting things up and dealing with shit and so I call the guy
00:17:17
when I'm out for another hotel and I'm like hey I'm here I don't see your van and he's quiet
00:17:21
for a minute and then he goes are you performing tonight? And I'm like yeah hi it's George I'm performing tonight
00:17:27
and he goes I'll be right there and I see a van fucking speed in a couple minutes later speed in and two
00:17:32
you guys fucking tumbled out of the fucking van these two drunks roll out of the van
00:17:39
he picked up the wrong two girls you know what here's the thing though they all look the same seriously
00:17:49
i see it dark hair everything and they like we coming tonight and we like don know what going on i was baffled i had just walked out of the hotel and i was like wait are we getting into a shuttle bus I don what is this And these girls are like hey yeah we were in
00:18:05
there, but now we're here. It's just like, holy fuck, what's happening? Are we doing, are we having
00:18:10
a show with more than two people tonight? And then he goes, I just said to them, are you guys going to
00:18:14
the theater? And they said, yeah. So I let them in. And then he was at the stoplight when I called
00:18:19
and he's like, are you doing the show tonight? And turned to them and go, are you guys not doing the
00:18:24
show they're like do we have to do the show okay we can seriously anybody could seriously it's
00:18:30
really i think you've caught on to that by now i mean probably better i just wish that he had
00:18:35
delivered two random women to vince who would have been like wow this is not pre-party what
00:18:42
this is not my beautiful wife this is not my beautiful theater in irving texas That looks right.
00:18:49
Hi, guys. How are you all tonight? It's exciting. Ooh! We both have clickers. Oh, my God.
00:18:56
Our own clickers. Dude. You know what that means? What? I can go forward in your pictures if I want to.
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While supplies last, contact store for availability. It's me. It's me. It's me. Karen.
00:20:55
So I've decided to use the loophole in the fact that we are not actually in Dallas proper,
00:21:01
but we're right outside in Irving, Texas. And using that as an excuse, I'm going to do one of my very favorite true crime stories ever,
00:21:10
the Texas cheerleader mom murder plot. Wow. This one, I mean, this one, guys. Shit.
00:21:28
It's got everything. I don't think I know the details. Really? Maybe you should tell them to me.
00:21:36
I think I'm going to. For eight fucking pages. Okay. But I talk fast, and the print is very large.
00:21:44
Mine's short and depressing, so do your thing. Okay, perfect. We like to end on a down note.
00:21:50
That's right. That's how we do. Okay, so because we're here in Texas, and this is how we do it,
00:21:58
But the main research, the article that I read that got most of the research and most of this color and amazing background is from Texas Monthly, of course.
00:22:12
It's so rude that you guys would keep this magazine to yourselves for so long. We've only known about it for like a year and it sucks.
00:22:20
It was written by a writer named Mimi Swartz, who's amazing and talented. There's also an article by Gwendolyn Knapp, who actually was the author of the article I used last night as well.
00:22:33
She writes for Houstonia.com. Was she the one when a girl in the front goes, she's here.
00:22:38
And I go, she's here. And she goes, no. Yeah. That sucks. That's why I say, do not talk to them.
00:22:47
People fucking with you in the front row. Not cool. Just kidding. Anyway, go ahead.
00:22:53
Go ahead. Do what you're saying to say. So let's just start with the subject of this amazing story, Miss Wanda Holloway.
00:23:04
Yes. Holy shit. Those are some fashion forward nails, if I've ever seen any. And eyebrows.
00:23:14
And the ring. Now here's the thing about Wanda. And if you were like two days late for your license or registration renewal, this bitch would shut you down at the DMV so fast, I cannot even tell you.
00:23:28
Wow. This is the woman who asks for the manager and then fires the manager and becomes the manager.
00:23:39
That's Wanda Holloway. Is that the secret? Yeah. Wow. That's the secret. it's the law of attraction and firing people where you don't work.
00:23:49
And, of course, the classic red flag that we all know, the eternal red flag, which is incredibly overplucked eyebrows.
00:23:57
You know. Yeah. You're dealing with a real personality, if that's what you're looking at.
00:24:05
And I say that non-judgmentally as a person who entirely decimated my own eyebrows during the 90s.
00:24:11
They were like Clara Bow with just one hair going along. It almost looked like a dot-to-dot over my eyes.
00:24:21
Like, these are what these used to be. Fill it in if you want to. Oh, that's so depressing, the one hair.
00:24:28
Like, it's worse than when you just shave it off and draw them on. Yeah, no. You're like still trying.
00:24:33
Because, well, to my point, I was on speed. So, red flag, right? You know, stay away from me.
00:24:40
I'll steal your cigarettes right out of your purse. So, we're just painting the picture for you.
00:24:47
Okay, so, she was born Wanda Webb. She was born in 1954. And she was raised in a city called Channel View, Texas.
00:24:54
which is the third character in this, or I guess fifth, but in this story. It's just east of the Houston metro area, and it is an unabashedly rough, working class, mostly white community.
00:25:08
So Mitzi Swartz starts this article off with this description of Channel View. Quote, when the cold, steady winter rain starts to fall, as it did unrelentingly last January,
00:25:21
channel view seems drenched in a dingy futility. The only color seems to be the perilous orange of the refinery gas flares.
00:25:29
At the Deldale Highway exit, a white elephant rearing about the flea market, remember we drove by that?
00:25:35
Oh, yeah. Yeah. About the flea market looks hopelessly grimy, and off the road the rain soaks the yards of the tract and trailer homes to a dirty brown.
00:25:44
In such weather, people lose their resolve. In the Baptist temples, they turn to hymns of salvation,
00:25:51
but do not keep time with the melody. In the pawn shops, I know, didn't that get you?
00:25:56
Like, oh, fuck. That's right. And that's why I say, white people, do not clap. If you're at a concert and someone starts going like this,
00:26:07
you keep your hands right where they are. No one needs your bullshit help. Back to Mimi Schwartz.
00:26:17
In pawn shops, they hawk their baby furniture, stub out their cigarettes, and think about looking for work out of town.
00:26:24
Winter in Channel View can bring menace and breed hopelessness, two qualities with which Wanda Holloway, who had spent most of her life here,
00:26:32
was more than well acquainted. Fuck Mitzi! I mean Mimi. Sorry, Mimi. And you know what? I just want to say, though,
00:26:40
but don't let that stop you from this amazing opportunity of a timeshare in Channel View.
00:26:47
Doesn't that make you want to... Because if you just hawk a little more baby furniture, you too can have a beachside retreat.
00:26:54
Okay. Flea market side retreat in Channel View. And then later on in the article, she quotes a criminal attorney named Mike Ramsey who said,
00:27:03
God created Channel View so people of Pasadena would have some place to look down on.
00:27:10
Man. Local jokes get local work. Am I right? We don't know what that means. I don't know what it means.
00:27:18
Don't be offended that I said that because I don't. It sounds mean. In our, where we're from, Pasadena is a very rich area.
00:27:24
That's right. So we don't, doesn't really translate. Very beautiful. And also she later mentions that the welcome sign of the city of Channelview.
00:27:32
Oh my God. It's like they're welcome like Channelview population, whatever it is.
00:27:37
And then it says, don't mess with Channelview. Okay. First of all, you stole that from your state.
00:27:45
So shut the fuck up. And secondly, I fucking mess with Channel Views. Shut up. Okay.
00:27:53
So. Drunk Karen lives in Channel View, I think. Drunk Karen would thrive in Channel View.
00:27:59
It's true. The mayor of Channel View. Drunk Karen would be swinging her purse in Channel View and making friends all over the flea market.
00:28:09
I can't wait. I may retire there. Okay, so Wanda grows up in Channelview on the south side of town.
00:28:18
Okay. Bad. Okay. Okay. In this town. Her father, Clyde, is a tester at a concrete plant, and her mother works in the high school cafeteria.
00:28:27
A tester? Like, taste tester? Yes. With the concrete? Mmm. It's too salty. That's too...
00:28:33
That's a shitty dog. His mouth is always a little bit open. Both parents are strict conservatives.
00:28:49
Wanda is an ambitious, overachieving child who excels in school, particularly later on in high school in her business classes.
00:28:56
But what she really wants more than anything else in the world, as you may have guessed,
00:29:01
is to be a cheerleader. Okay. I mean, me too, on all of this so far. Right? None of it.
00:29:06
Oh. Well, you know what this made me think of is when my niece Nora was in preschool,
00:29:12
we went to like an open house at the preschool, and they had pictures of all the little kids on the wall.
00:29:18
They're a bunch of four-year-olds. And then it said like the name and like their favorite animal,
00:29:22
what they wanted to be when they grew up. And we were walking down and reading all the different, you know, hopes,
00:29:28
high hopes and dreams of the kids. And we get to my niece Nora's, and it says, Nora, you know, cat.
00:29:33
And then I want to be a cheerleader. And my sister's like, oh my fucking God, where did this come from?
00:29:39
She had no idea. It's not like Nora was around the house doing it. It was just out of the blue.
00:29:46
And then the whole family gave my sister shit for so long. It was like, great job with Nora.
00:29:53
Big dreams of being a professional cheerleader And then Not that there anything wrong with that Not that there anything wrong with that and then could you imagine if we made a bunch of professional cheerleaders mad oh they would
00:30:06
make a cheer about it that'd be so sick they would fucking they would make a pyramid to the sky that's
00:30:12
right of rage a rage pyramid that's the best pyramid a rage pyramid yeah i mean i'll flip
00:30:18
down off of it. Land, stab us. Wanda's greatest dream in life was to become a cheerleader,
00:30:26
but her ultra-conservative parents forbid her to try out. Her father says that he thinks the uniforms
00:30:32
are skimpy and whorish. Judgy. Right? And this is also 1971, where they're a little bulky, actually.
00:30:43
Right. Very generous. although I hear in Channel View they had it was gold lame tube tops and daisy dukes
00:30:52
but we don't know that's just a gossip okay so with that Wanda's cheerleading dream dies on the vine
00:31:00
it's clearly the inciting incident in Wanda's life story and for good reason we're back to Mimi Swartz and her article
00:31:08
if you can read it it's the most beautifully written poetic and yet informative amazing
00:31:14
It's like that kind of thing where you're getting the actual story of the people
00:31:19
as opposed to what's on the front of, like, People magazine, which is all you got with this story.
00:31:24
So she says, quote, Those who dismiss cheerleading as trivial and vapid miss its essential and enduring reality,
00:31:32
that it is still one of the best ways a young woman can advance herself socially,
00:31:36
not just in school, but beyond. If it remains important in a place like Plano, where a child can have many options,
00:31:43
It is doubly so in a place like Channel View, where feminine beauty is short-lived and harshness is the norm.
00:32:01
Ouch. She is just fucking tearing everyone up in this article. She's describing what she sees.
00:32:08
But she's doing it in a way that's like, did she just insult me? I can't tell because that was so beautiful.
00:32:13
Yeah. Did you just put your cigarette out in my drink? That's kind of cool. So essentially, her not becoming a cheerleader becomes this tiny but malignant tumor in her brain.
00:32:29
I'm trying to act like Mimi Swartz, and I'm not. Okay. So Wanda graduates from high school in 1971.
00:32:35
Her idea was that she was going to pursue an education in business. but in 1972, at the age of 18, she quits that, and she marries a guy named Tony Harper,
00:32:44
who she had known for most of her life. Together, they have two kids, Shane, who was born in 1973, and Shanna, who was born in 1977.
00:32:53
Then Wanda gets a job as a secretary. She plays piano at their church, and she's a well-regarded member of the Channel View community and lifelong.
00:33:03
And the locals describe her as a lovely person, and then the words of her daughter's junior high school principal,
00:33:08
quote, very refined, speaks good English, and is beautifully attired. Sign the principal.
00:33:18
The junior high, that's weird. Can you be like, Mom, I think the principal's into you.
00:33:24
Oh, did you hear her English? Yeah, she's from here. It's not that big of a deal.
00:33:30
In 1980, Wanda and Tony get a divorce. Wanda gets the house and the primary custody of the kids.
00:33:35
She briefly remarries an older, wealthier man from Beaumont. Hey, girl. Okay. That's all right.
00:33:46
That ends quickly. Her third marriage is to another older, wealthy man named C.D. Holloway,
00:33:51
who owns his own oil field service company. So they stay living in Wanda's house, which is what the kids are used to.
00:34:00
But C.D. is rich, and so he has money to buy Wanda everything she could ever want.
00:34:04
Sounds fun. Right? Money's kind of great. It's like, don't get it twisted. So the thing is, though, as I have said and described, or Mimi has,
00:34:17
that's not what Channel View is about. So most people who live there work at the petrochemical plants.
00:34:22
They all essentially make the same amount of money because they all work in the same places.
00:34:27
Taste testing the oil? Right. And they're like, mm-hmm. And if they have any more money than that, they do not show it.
00:34:34
Everyone just kind of like keeps to the status quo. But Wanda goes ahead and shows her money because she loves it.
00:34:45
And so slowly but surely the locals start to think that Wanda is becoming pretentious.
00:34:49
Uh-oh. Which is a major sin. So in 1983, when Shanna is five years old, Wanda buys her her first cheerleading uniform and signs her up for intensive gymnastic classes.
00:35:03
Oy vey. So here's Shanna. Oh no, she's a little baby. Yeah. That's a baby. Her mom's got a plan.
00:35:13
Hashtag Getty Images. Yeah. So Wanda is a very intense cheerleading stage mom. She makes her daughter practice when she's sick and when she's injured.
00:35:23
Five. Fun, because it's fun. It's fun. And that's what a kid's like. No, she loves it.
00:35:27
She loves doing it. Oh, my God. She loves to suffer. That's what she's always like.
00:35:34
But Shanna, of course, loves her mom. It's the thing that they do together. You know, and so she wants to do that with her, and she sticks it out to make her mom happy.
00:35:43
Then Wanda gets Shanna into private cheerleading lessons. Private cheerleading lessons.
00:35:49
away from others in the studio. They're all like, we know because we're from Texas,
00:35:53
but we're like, we're from California. What the fuck What My parents smoked pot and hung out I only ever took public cheerleading lessons Right on the sidewalk
00:36:07
She also signs her up to do some modeling at the San Jacinto Mall. And she regularly forces her to wear matching mother-daughter outfits.
00:36:17
That's the scariest factoid in this story, probably. That's one step over the line.
00:36:22
Yeah, it really is. We're like, great, break that kid's back. Wait a minute. Wait a second.
00:36:27
Matching sweaters? No. Mm-mm. That includes matching mother-daughter cheerleading costumes.
00:36:37
Oh. Oh. Okay. Look, everybody has different interests. Everybody likes different things.
00:36:44
And everybody has different holes in their heart. But they are trying to constantly fill with stuff like beer and cheerleading costumes.
00:36:51
So stop judging. Thank you. Thanks. That's the one. That's the one. What I do is I close my eyes and I just let it come through me.
00:37:02
It's beautiful. Thank you so much. I would buy time shares there. Would you? Yeah.
00:37:07
In that channel? In that part of your soul. Like just saying that song. I'm going to start fucking selling time shares in there.
00:37:16
Show business. Okay, in 1989, Shanna tries out for her seventh grade cheerleading squad
00:37:21
at Alice Johnson Junior High and doesn't make the cut. What? Yes. Oh, there were some bitches in that fucking team who were like, no.
00:37:29
Right? Right. Because she was great, probably. Well, here's what's crazy as I'm reading this story.
00:37:34
The way they pick their cheerleaders is you audition and you have to make a cut.
00:37:40
And then there's a couple too many cheerleaders. And then the school votes. The students vote on who the cheerleaders are going to be.
00:37:49
Can we have a moment of just talking about how fucking terrible school was? Yeah.
00:37:53
I'm so glad. Can you imagine? I don't have to. It's like it was yesterday for me.
00:38:02
Yeah, the idea that they would leave that just to the student body. The meanest people.
00:38:07
Who do you like today? Vote on it. So. Sorry, you can tell me more. There it is.
00:38:18
The problem with this situation. So, of course, and obviously, Shanna is in this.
00:38:24
You know what I mean? She's the one taking those fucking lessons. She's the one doing stuff and powering through it.
00:38:29
So heartbreaking enough that she doesn't make the cut. That sucks. Yeah. And it's happened to all of us in some fucking different way.
00:38:36
And it's horrifying. Meanwhile, they have a neighbor down the street. And her name is Amber Heath.
00:38:41
And she does make the cut. And this makes Wanda fucking crazy. because, first of all, Amber wasn't going to that junior high when she tried out.
00:38:53
And, yeah. Disqualified, right? Immediately. That's what Wanda said. And so once, oh, sorry, I missed this important and heartbreaking detail.
00:39:04
Once you make the cut and before the voting, you campaign. You campaign. Here's how you should vote for me, and this is really important.
00:39:13
Here's how you should vote for me. I can herky like a motherfucker. Anyway. This breaks my heart.
00:39:23
So, where do you go? So Wanda tells everyone not to vote for Amber. The adult person in this situation, I believe she was 37 at the time,
00:39:33
begins to tell children at a junior high not to vote for another child to be a motherfucking hooray for the team on the field person.
00:39:42
The other seventh grade boys. Let the women talk. the other boys. A lot of blah, blah, blah
00:39:48
coming out from over there. Truly. Yeah, I don't like that. Like the 7th grade boys playing football,
00:39:54
the 7th grade girls cheering for them. Yeah. It's intense. It's gone fully Lord of the Flies
00:40:00
and everybody seems to be in on it. Okay. Oh, this is so this is oh, this is Shannon when she's a little bit older.
00:40:08
Okay. This is not junior high. This is her as a teenager. Okay. That's her as a secretary.
00:40:13
Yeah. And this is Amber Heath when she's older as well. Okay. Got it. Who plays them in the made for TV movie? The last one was Chelsea
00:40:20
Clinton. That's all I can tell you. Oh, I didn't know she was acting. She's acting and she's
00:40:26
cheerleading these days. Did you know? And she got a perm. Wanda goes around saying, Amber is an
00:40:33
outsider. You shouldn't vote for her. Oh God. Jesus Christ. How do you have time in your day?
00:40:39
now Amber's mom Verna Heath who is from cheerleading stock herself when Amber was going to try out
00:40:53
she helped Amber campaign by handing out flyers that said vote for Amber and then attaching a little peppermint candy to it
00:41:01
that's adorable isn't it? so it was 1989 so that blew everyone's mind and they all voted for Amber
00:41:08
and she made it onto the cheerleading spot. Fucking peppermint candy? That's what I'm saying.
00:41:11
Like, oh my God, this thing you can get for free in every fucking shit restaurant in town?
00:41:16
It's like, it's almost like a technological miracle. We're like, holy shit, I didn't even think of this.
00:41:21
Oh my God, we can have candy. Yeah, this is before things were actually marketed
00:41:26
toward children in any way. It was all cigarettes and booze back then. Candy for me?
00:41:33
Sure, I'll make your daughter a cheerleader. so like Wanda Holloway, Verna Heath,
00:41:41
Amber's mom, is also a fiercely ambitious and competitive person. The only difference is,
00:41:46
Verna was a cheerleader in high school, and she was good at it. And she was from,
00:41:51
as I said, stock because Verna's mother twirled baton. So these are fucking serious sports encourager people Is that some DNA shit That some DNA That past It hereditary Okay
00:42:05
Just having a passion for those after school activities that won't help you get a job later.
00:42:11
So Verna had also signed Amber up at the same time in the same intense gymnastics classes that Shanna trained at.
00:42:20
so clearly when Amber wins out over Shanna Wanda actually interprets that as she's losing to Verna Heath
00:42:28
here's a picture of Verna Heath pensive she's thinking about all the fucked up shit
00:42:35
that's about to happen in this story ready? so the next year in 1990 Shanna tries out
00:42:43
for the junior high cheer squad again and this time Wanda calls her ex-husband Tony for help
00:42:49
She says, you have to help me pay. You have to split the cost. We're going to get rulers and pencils engraved with the phrase,
00:42:57
vote for Shanna for cheerleader. And Wanda goes and passes them out to the students.
00:43:04
You know how children love school supplies? Yes. That's like their favorite thing.
00:43:09
Yeah. Right? Almost as much as peppermint candy. So the junior high tells Wanda she's not allowed to hand those out,
00:43:18
that it's against school policy. She hands them out anyway. You know she was walking around that school,
00:43:26
shoving engraved rulers into the principal's face like, Verna handed out peppermint candy.
00:43:31
Why is this any different? Of course, she's warned not to do it. She does it anyway.
00:43:37
She hands out the pencils and rulers. And then because she does that, she disqualifies Shanna from being a cheerleader.
00:43:46
Don't punish the kid because your mom's kind of a dick. Well, it's also, this is how much she's lost her way.
00:43:52
Yeah. Because she's not doing the thing that's best for her child or the thing that's actually helping her child
00:43:58
or moving her forward. Peppermints. She's just trying to fix it. She's trying to make herself feel better.
00:44:04
She's trying to win instead of... She's trying to win. Let her daughter cheer. All she's ever wanted to do is cheer.
00:44:10
I don't know. Okay, so goodbye. That page is done. So, at this point, this is the saddest part, Shanna tells her parents she doesn't even want to be a cheerleader.
00:44:23
Ooh, have that convo go, do you think? Well, you know that Wanda was like, this is not over.
00:44:31
And she then forces Shanna to keep on training. That's the way to do it to your child is force them to do something they don't want to do anymore.
00:44:40
Yeah, especially if they come to you and just really express the truth after years.
00:44:44
Um, so, but the thing is, Wanda has a plan, you see, because she's like, okay, fuck junior high cheerleading.
00:44:51
We're going to do that high school shit and we're going to get you onto the freshman high school team.
00:44:54
So she knows that JV, that the, uh, like JV or freshman, I'm not sure which one, cheerleading, um, squad tryouts are in March of 1991.
00:45:03
So she's like, okay, we got three months. We're going to do this thing. Eye of the tiger fucking cut two.
00:45:09
Yeah. Cut two. And it's not to Shanna Training. it's to Wanda taking a job in the high school band director's office.
00:45:16
No. Thinking that she's going to get in there and make friends and cozy up and then basically win it over from the inside.
00:45:23
Brilliant? Like kind of brilliant? Well, except it's the kids that vote. Oh, right.
00:45:32
The band director's like, ma'am, I have no power here. I'm merely the band director.
00:45:39
It doesn't work. Okay. then never mind. And I think it's probably because no one warmed up to her
00:45:47
because if you would give, you have to give to receive. So tryouts are like a few months away
00:45:55
and Wanda is now desperate. So she goes to her ex-brother-in-law, Terry Harper, that's Tony's brother, Terry.
00:46:02
She goes and knocks on his trailer door and literally, that's not a joke, and she's,
00:46:11
So it's going to speak to you privately. Southern Karen is my new favorite Karen.
00:46:15
Right? Yeah. Southern mom Karen. I watched Wanda Holloway on Phil Donahue. Oh, my God.
00:46:27
You've got to watch it. It's really uncomfortable, though, because Donahue keeps kind of messing up.
00:46:32
He keeps messing up the names of things. How unprofessional is that? Oh, my God.
00:46:37
No, he seems nervous. Oh. he donahue if you're a millennial there was a talk show host in the 70s and 80s name was phil
00:46:47
phil donahue he was the greatest so good he handled every issue it was like these one hour
00:46:54
one topic talk shows that i would watch after school absolutely unbelievable and brave culture
00:47:00
and yep boy george was on there yeah like explain this to us you're wearing makeup but you're a man
00:47:06
Everyone's like, yay. This is fucking the world opened to you when you watched Phil Donahue after school.
00:47:15
And Wanda is so intimidating that Phil Donahue's like, so you're from Texas? It's really uncomfortable.
00:47:21
But when she finally, because she's sitting there listening to him, but she's doing this kind of like, she's chewing invisible gum.
00:47:26
It has the energy of chewing gum, but she's not chewing gum. And then when she finally talks, she's like, well.
00:47:36
We've been misportrayed in the media. We're just like, holy shit, is she going to kill everybody on the set of Donahue?
00:47:47
So she gets her ex-brother-in-law, and she drives them to a local convenience store,
00:47:51
and they sit in the parking lot, and she says, I want you to help me kill Verna Heath and her 14-year-old daughter.
00:48:00
holy shit yes and uh terry's like no i don't know i'm not gonna do that wanda what a bummer
00:48:12
if someone thinks that that's the kind of person like you're the person to go to for that you're
00:48:15
not like wait what do you think of me i'm really nice actually and i like gardening and i i journal
00:48:23
a lot i highlight passages of the bible when i'm on a plane just just because i have a very
00:48:28
long mustache does not mean that I am violent. What a bummer. Yeah. So he refuses
00:48:36
obviously. Stephen's violent. Don't. Don't get it twisted. That's why he's not here.
00:48:42
That's not true. I want to go ahead and... Stephen, mark that. That's a lie about you.
00:48:47
You're going to want to pull it out. There's a lot of them. Probably. Whatever else
00:48:50
you want to pull out. We never listened to it. Stephen could be editing these shows any way he wants
00:48:56
at the end. We're like, We did it. You listened to it. We were there the first time.
00:49:03
We know what we did to those poor people. Okay, so. So, of course, Terry refuses.
00:49:10
He's a decent person. On Christmas Eve, Wanda's like, what better time than to ask him again?
00:49:16
So this time, she's like, can I talk to you on the patio? Or whatever the fuck she said to him.
00:49:23
Do trailers have patios? Yeah. Well, he built one because he cares about gardening.
00:49:29
We already talked about this. We went over this. Like a patio is gardening. He cares about cement.
00:49:39
Okay, so this time she asks, she's like, no, no, you said no before. But listen.
00:49:44
This time she says, can you find me a hitman? Oh. And Terry hangs up. Oh, they were on the phone this time.
00:49:51
Sorry. They're not on the patio. They're on an emotional patio. over the phone where you can get a timeshare.
00:49:59
I'm going to let that one die. I won't, I won't mention a timeshare again. Watch.
00:50:03
You know what? Save it for the very end. That's right. Okay. Be a great callback.
00:50:06
Great. Um, Terry basically hangs up on her. Doesn't really, doesn't commit to anything.
00:50:11
Doesn't give her an answer. It's just kind of like, I'm sure got the shivers real bad.
00:50:15
And then hung up. It's like, Oh, she asked me again. She's crazy. Um, and so he immediately calls his brother,
00:50:23
who's Wanda's ex-husband, Tony. and he tells Tony all about the conversation. He's like, A, good thing you divorced her.
00:50:30
B, what should I do? Wouldn't that be funny? It's like, should I go out with her?
00:50:38
But it's like, I don't know. Should I find her a hitman? She's really nice. I love how she barely has eyebrows.
00:50:48
I bet, though, Tony on the other end of the line, Terry tells him the thing and he's like,
00:50:52
I fucking told you. I told you she was like this. So basically Tony says, hang this phone up and call the police right now.
00:51:00
And that's exactly what Terry does. So he goes to the police. He tells them every single thing.
00:51:05
And they make the plan that they're going to wire him. And he basically is going to pretend over the next three weeks that he's going to get Wanda a hitman to kill a mother and a daughter.
00:51:18
Jesus. And he basically comes up with this. He's like, it'll cost you $2,500 for Verna and then $5,000 for Amber.
00:51:29
Okay. It's a sliding scale. You're worth more. We all know this. You're worth more when you're young.
00:51:35
Wanda decides $7,500 is too expensive to kill two human beings. She does not haggle.
00:51:42
Please tell me she doesn't haggle. She haggles the fuck out of it. What she says is, what she haggles is, I'll just take Verna.
00:51:48
and then if Verna is murdered, Amber will be so upset she won't be able to try out to be a cheerleader.
00:51:57
It's a good plan. Is it? Well, logically, what would be worse than a sad cheerleader?
00:52:05
Yeah, but no, because here's why. I'm in a bummer. Yay. You guys, come on. Come on.
00:52:24
That was amazing. I loved every moment. You like a crying cheerleader? I love it.
00:52:28
Okay, we'll bring that one back. It's better than a rage cheerleader, even, if you can believe it.
00:52:33
Well, the rage cheerleaders were really easy to picture. It was like a bit Mad Max.
00:52:37
Yeah. Crying cheerleaders like, I need to know this story. What's happening? Okay, so, meanwhile, the police are listening to all of it.
00:52:45
They're listening to her haggle over the value of a life. they know Wanda's guilty
00:52:51
it's all kind of right there for them and so on August 28th 1991 with the fake murder plot all settled and the deal done
00:53:02
Wanda meets up with Terry and gives him her diamond earrings as a down payment and she says to him
00:53:08
which is recorded I couldn't pull the trigger myself in the accent please oh thank you
00:53:16
it's really thank you but it's really hard to do an accent in a room full of people who live in the
00:53:24
place where you're trying to do the accent that you're not from and you've only listened to half
00:53:29
an hour of donahue okay i'm just saying that thank you for cheering it's nice of you to cheer though
00:53:33
we love cheer so here's her taking out her i couldn't pull the trigger myself but i sure can
00:53:38
do it this way oh shit yeah she doesn't give a fuck she doesn't care what a bitch so the
00:53:46
The next day the police show up at Wanda's front door, knock, knock, knock, and they arrest her.
00:53:50
And here is her mugshot. Oh, fun. Boom. I got Defiant Yeah Strong I got double They double me That good It the kind of way that I got double
00:54:08
I'm just doing Holly Hunter, I think. Oh, yeah. They goddamn double-crossed me. Is that right?
00:54:15
They can arrest my body, but they can't arrest my cheerleader soul. she's released on bail one day later
00:54:25
that's how it works as you'd expect she pleads not guilty to the crime of solicitation of capital murder
00:54:32
and her trial begins on August 23rd 1991 here's her look at she's never been more alive
00:54:41
going to court look at that cascade of hair rolling down the back of her mullet neck
00:54:48
that is some crunchy hair like i dare you to try to put a finger to her through that
00:54:55
impenetrable when she scratches her head she's like i don't know let me think about it oh my god she was at dillard's all day trying to find that blazer
00:55:06
they love dillard's i mean just the amount of crunchy hair in this photo there's that one too
00:55:14
Oh, shit. We've just got disembodied crunchy hair on the right-hand side. That's someone's mom. Someone in the audience, that's their mom.
00:55:23
Or that could be someone's dog. Doesn't that look like a tail? Yeah, it's a tail.
00:55:30
Emotional support courtroom. It looks like a Wheaton Terrier. It looks like someone brought a Wheaton Terrier emotional support dog into the courtroom.
00:55:38
That should be a thing. Amazing. Okay. So the prosecution plays the recordings from Wanda and Terry's wired conversations,
00:55:47
and Wanda's defense team argues that Terry and Tony have conspired against her. I mean, the prosecutors would just press play, and that's their argument.
00:55:57
They won't have to say a word. Maybe they get a discount on that. But basically, it's like the whole thing's a frame job.
00:56:03
She's been lured into it out of revenge for Tony and Wanda's contentious divorce 10 years prior.
00:56:12
Here's Terry in court. He's like, I just want a garden. That's the first thing he said to the judge.
00:56:21
They're like, sir, please keep to the case. We don't care about what you do in your private.
00:56:26
But I'm a good person. He sounds like Holly Hunter, too. It breaks my heart. I love him so much.
00:56:35
Okay. So, like every other campaign that Wanda tries to mount, this one also shits the bed.
00:56:47
On September 4th, 1991, Wanda Holloway is found guilty and sentenced to 15 years in prison plus a $10,000 fine.
00:56:54
Hold. Because it's soon revealed, however, that one of the jurors is on probation for a drug-related felony
00:57:03
and should have never been allowed on a jury. Hi, friend. Are you fucking bored or something?
00:57:09
No, he's drug-related. Oh, he's on drugs. Yeah. Got it. He fucking took so much acid and went to jury selection.
00:57:18
Only someone on drugs would be like, yeah, I totally want to do jury duty. Could you pick me?
00:57:22
I'd love it. My pupils will be smaller the day of the case, I swear. Okay, so they declare a mistrial.
00:57:30
The sentencing is dropped. A second trial is planned for 1996. This time, Wanda pleads no contest to the charges.
00:57:37
On September 9th, 1996, she's found guilty and sentenced to 10 years in prison and a $10,000 fine.
00:57:44
She also settles a civil suit with the Heath family, and she has to pay them $150,000.
00:57:50
Good. Yeah. I'll buy a lot of cheerleading outfits. Yeah, that's right. I think.
00:57:54
I don't actually know how much that costs. Amber and her mom, Verna, in court. Oh, man.
00:57:59
Wait a second. I recognize that hair. Yeah. Would they be that close walking down the hall?
00:58:06
No, I can't imagine they'd walk them together. Also, I'm sorry, but does anyone here remember these fucking shit clothes in the 90s where everything was like,
00:58:15
we're from Germany and the future. Put on this tunic. Everything is like royal blue and black.
00:58:22
Yeah. Pretend you're in a band. It goes out to here. Shoulder pads, yes. You're in a Talking Heads video, essentially.
00:58:28
Look at that. Look at the puffiness of that pad of her shoulder. Yeah, that's right.
00:58:32
Wow. Honey. She has two pom-poms stuffed in each shoulder. Okay. So on March 1st, 1997, after serving just six months of her sentence,
00:58:45
Wanda Holloway is released from jail. She's ordered to serve the rest of her nine-and-a-half-year sentence on probation
00:58:51
plus 1,000 hours of community service. And I said last night about the other case that I was talking about.
00:58:58
Sounds about white to me. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Walk out if you want to. I don't care.
00:59:07
So in 1993, our best friend Holly Hunter stars in the HBO movie The Positively True Adventures of the alleged Texas cheerleader murdering mom.
00:59:21
Oh, my God. Have you seen this? No. It's insanity. You have to watch it. Bo Bridges.
00:59:26
Bo Bridges is in it. Holy shit. And Holly Hunter. All the greats. Oh, my God. Yeah.
00:59:32
Look at that cheerleading outfit. It's not real. Whorish. If they had just let that bitch cheerlead when she was a kid, everything would have been fine.
00:59:41
It's true. Wow. It's an outrageous true story of jealousy and obsession. There's also, in 1994, author Ann Meyer wrote a book about this case called Mother Love, Deadly Love.
00:59:54
Okay. Okay Now I went through the hometown emails to see if anyone had written in about this case And of course someone did
01:00:05
So the top half of the email is basically explaining exactly how I just did. So, like, copy-paste.
01:00:13
How this just went. And then the second half of the email says, Not much was happening in Pasadena, and this was big, big news at the time.
01:00:23
So when my dad saw this crazy lady's face plastered on every newspaper, he realized that he had coached Wanda's daughter in gymnastics less than five years earlier at the local YMCA.
01:00:35
He very vividly remembered Wanda constantly yelling at her daughter during practice to do this and that, to the point where my then young and hot-headed father told her to, quote, shut up or get out of my gym.
01:00:46
He had no idea he was yelling at a sociopath. Otherwise, I imagine he would have kept his mouth shut for once.
01:00:54
Then again, maybe if he had been a better coach, Wanda's daughter would have made the cheerleading spot.
01:01:00
And this whole issue would have been avoided. Anyways, stay sexy and don't yell at sociopaths.
01:01:07
Jordan. Jordan! Yeah. And that is the insane yet highly competitive story of the Texas cheerleader mom.
01:01:16
murder plot. Jordan's like, where's the bus? Because I'm going to toss my dad right
01:01:25
under that motherfucker. Wow, that was fun. Get ready to not have fun. We like all kinds.
01:01:35
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01:03:51
All right. Okay. This is the hit and run case of Vicki Lyons. Now I want to go. Okay. Let's just
01:03:59
get into it. 1980. Crystal Lyons and her husband live in the small town of Big Spring, Texas.
01:04:08
Big Spring. It's a small town and there's a Big Spring. Yeah. They built a small town
01:04:13
around a Big Spring. Which sounds picturesque. Yeah. Nope. No timeshares. There's no timeshares
01:04:18
there. You want to go back to the timeshare well. Don't do it. I know. It's my favorite
01:04:23
well. It's good. So they live there with their four-year-old daughter, Vicki. She's a quiet
01:04:28
and sweet child. I have a photo of her. She survives. So let's not... This gets horrible,
01:04:35
but she lives. That's a good spoiler. That's the best kind of spoiler you could give us.
01:04:39
And really, the story is about two badass women who fucking take a bad situation and are like,
01:04:47
nope, and fucking take care of business. Hell yes. It ends up... Yes, we love those stories.
01:04:55
But it gets shitty first. So, Crystal, the mother, works in the circulation department at the Big Spring Herald newspaper, like the town's newspaper.
01:05:04
It covers every story in town. It's probably the only newspaper. I'm making that up.
01:05:09
I would. I think you could save money, yeah. One day, Crystal's babysitter doesn't show up to take care of Vicki.
01:05:17
She calls her supervisor. She's a fucking working mom. She's like, I don't know what to do.
01:05:21
And the supervisor is a lovely person and says, come in or you're fucking fired.
01:05:26
Oh. So Crystal's like, great, I'm bringing my fucking four-year-old in then. Kind of like, sounds amazing.
01:05:33
So she brings Vicki in, and she's brought her in before. Of course, everyone at the office loves her.
01:05:38
She's a darling kid. And Crystal tries to keep an eye on Vicki as she works as best she can.
01:05:45
So Crystal is moving papers to the loading dock for an afternoon delivery. When she hears her amazing, wonderful supervisor that we just talked about
01:05:54
Tell Vicky to go outside and play in the parking lot Go play in the parking lot No Moments later Crystal in the middle of telling him
01:06:05
that she doesn't feel comfortable having her daughter at work and that she's just going to head home.
01:06:09
And when her supervisor, they look out the window and they see Vicky lying on the ground outside.
01:06:14
Oh, no. And Crystal can tell from a distance that, like, immediately that her daughter's injured.
01:06:19
When she reaches Vicky, Vicky's unconscious and she's not breathing. She survives again.
01:06:25
I'd like to go ahead. No one is around and there aren't any clues as to what had happened.
01:06:30
So Vicky's rushed to the hospital in Odessa, which is like an hour away. On the way, the ambulance breaks down.
01:06:40
Like just to fucking, just to mess with you. They almost crash into the back of it.
01:06:44
They get into the hospital. And Vicky's rushed to intensive care. And when they finally see their child,
01:06:51
Crystal and her husband notice that there's marks on Vicky's face. and they're like, what, that looks like tire marks on her face.
01:06:58
And the hospital staff is like, that's what it is. Oh, my God. So fucking Crystal, amazing Crystal's like, I'm going to take photos of this.
01:07:05
And has the, in 1980, I don't know, what kind of, where do you have your camera?
01:07:09
At home in a closet? Right. And it's huge. It's like the whole closet. Yes. She takes it out of the closet.
01:07:16
I don't know. And she takes photos, like has the wherewithal to take photos of the marks on Vicky's face.
01:07:21
So Vicki falls into a coma, and her parents, the only thing they can do is wait.
01:07:26
Meanwhile, police question everyone who works at the newspaper. No one had seen the accident happen, but they're like,
01:07:32
we did see this man leaving the parking lot in a hurry just before Vicki was found.
01:07:37
So police issue an APB for J.B. Hardman. He's a minister who makes his living selling fish from the back of his truck as well.
01:07:44
Sorry, I have about four questions now. Remember, they're near a big spring, So it's probably good fish.
01:07:52
No? You're not going to have that one? Where do you want to buy fish, if not the back of a truck?
01:08:00
From a pastor? Is that what you said he was? A minister. A minister. Yeah. A fish.
01:08:06
Uh-huh. I mean, it kind of makes sense. Didn't Jesus do that? He sure did. He did.
01:08:11
You know. Yeah. I'm Jewish. I don't know that part. So that guy, that minister just has the one fish where he's like, who wants it?
01:08:19
who's got a big party tonight. This thing feeds a shit ton of people. Whoops, I'm a minister.
01:08:26
I'm not supposed to say that. So police find this guy in the town of Snyder. They're like, you ran over a kid.
01:08:34
And he's like, what, Snyder? He doesn't know what they're, he says, what are you talking about?
01:08:39
He doesn't curse. He's a good person. He doesn't know what they're talking about.
01:08:43
He's like, I did not run over a kid. I would have known. But they take him into the jail.
01:08:48
and he's in the jail, Sky JB. And this is a really great Forensic Files episode, by the way,
01:08:54
that I forgot to write down the name of, but it's like one of the ones that you're like,
01:08:57
who thought of that title? It's like every... Don't Tread Lightly. Oh, God. That's not...
01:09:06
Because of Tire Treads, everyone. Do you get it? I think they do. That's what that's...
01:09:11
It's just... It's like subtle. Because I was going to do the official report. With fish all in cap?
01:09:19
That's great. I only had like two seconds to think of it. That was amazing. Thank you.
01:09:23
I'm impressed. So, okay, so this guy, this amazing dude is interviewed in Forensic Files.
01:09:31
He didn't do it, by the way. He's not the guy. Oh. I just keep thinking of other fish ones.
01:09:36
We're like. Go ahead. Look into this case just for the halibut. Sorry. You guys, we turned her.
01:09:45
We turned her. You turned me into someone's dad at Christmas. Jesus. The only kind of comedy that we want.
01:09:55
Pun comedy only from now on. That's right. They arrest him, and he talks in the case,
01:10:03
and he's like, I was sitting in the cell, and I'm like, what is happening? And then he hears the police in the other,
01:10:08
it's probably a small jail cell, I don't know, in the other room saying that they combed over
01:10:12
every inch of his fish truck, and they only found one speck of blood and he was like, oh shit
01:10:19
like that's, they're gonna fucking put me away forever but he didn't do it so almost three weeks
01:10:26
after Vicky had gone into a coma she regains consciousness she had suffered damage to her skull in one eye
01:10:33
and she can't walk or even speak when she wakes up doctors tell her mom, Crystal
01:10:38
to just put her daughter in a wheelchair and get on with life and Crystal's like, fuck that shit
01:10:44
No. A. Two things. Fuck you. Two. Fuck that shit. Right. Crystal's determined to help her daughter live as normal a life as possible.
01:10:54
And as time goes by, Vicky's condition starts to improve. So one day, Crystal takes Vicky to the newspaper office again to see everyone who's all concerned about her, all her friends in the office.
01:11:05
And when one of the employees leans in the car to say hello, Vicky has a fucking reaction and starts, like, screaming.
01:11:12
and it's the first time she's spoken or said anything since her coma. Oh, my God.
01:11:16
When she sees this dude, she's, like, freaking out, and Crystal's like, this isn't, something's not right,
01:11:21
but she can't, her daughter can't explain why she's upset. So, okay, so she's not able to explain,
01:11:29
but Crystal decides to conduct her own investigation. Yeah, she does. She doesn't think that the guy they have in custody did it.
01:11:37
She just doesn't think it's him. I think she knew him from the paper. He, like, had come by or something.
01:11:42
She's like, listen, I know the fish priest, and he is not... He's got that great truck, and he's just not that way.
01:11:52
So I think she watched detective shows, and she thinks about what a detective would do.
01:11:59
And she starts making... of all the vehicles that she remembers seeing in the newspaper parking lot that day.
01:12:04
Then, okay, so at the time, the newspaper parking lot is unpaved and bumpy, so it's possible a driver could have driven over Vicky and not known they had hit her.
01:12:15
I know. But by, let's see, they didn't have an eyewitness, and Crystal was like, I'm not giving up.
01:12:21
She decided she needs to compare the tire marks from the photo she took of Vicky in the hospital that day
01:12:27
to the tires that she remembers in the parking lot that day. So she fucking, I know, it's crazy.
01:12:32
She takes black shoe polish and rubs it on each tire and makes an impression with a piece of paper on it.
01:12:40
And then her co-workers are like, her co-workers are looking out the window and then the one guy is just sweating a ton.
01:12:48
Like, wow, what's Vicky doing? I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. Oh, I gotta go.
01:12:55
I think we have a, yeah. So this is Crystal. amazing so okay we're okay the tire polish
01:13:07
paper she keeps a careful record of the tire impression she takes and she from two vans
01:13:13
and a pickup truck and she like notes which tire they can like which the front rear
01:13:17
nope that's not a thing the front right it's just one huge tire wait a second that's a snow plow
01:13:23
hold on that's a unicycle front rear i know nothing about cars obviously okay she shows the detective her work she's like what's up i did your job for you
01:13:40
and i think you arrested the wrong man and of course you know how love they loved being told
01:13:45
they're wrong about many things they were like get out of here basically to her um she says that
01:13:51
they harassed a sweet old man who never did anything wrong to anybody except fish
01:13:56
a grand jury questions him on his involvement and he denies any and the one spot of blood on
01:14:03
his truck turns out to be fish blood from that one fish that shaved in the truck that time
01:14:10
obviously i think they tasted it like tastes like fish blood anyone want to get sushi
01:14:17
um they they don't they don't have enough to um indict him so he's released and crystal's like i
01:14:26
still think that they don't have the right person they the detectives tell her it's a civil matter
01:14:31
not a criminal one so goodbye you know so for the next three years vicky is nursed back to health
01:14:39
by her parents no one in the small town of big springs is willing to help her investigate the
01:14:44
accident any further. Then she reads about a man known as the Sherlock Holmes of tire marks.
01:14:50
That's a thing. AKA Mr. Hot. His name is Peter McDonald and he literally wrote the book on tire
01:14:59
impression evidence. Like that's his fucking thing. He's the former chief designer for the
01:15:04
Firestone Tire Company and he also assisted numerous police agencies and taught this stuff
01:15:09
at the FBI Academy. And it's the break Crystal's been looking for. She fucking calls him up and she's like,
01:15:16
can you help me? And he is like, hell yeah. Love it. Did you say tires? I'm there.
01:15:24
She calls him. He's in Ohio. She explains the case to him. And he's totally into it.
01:15:31
He's familiar with the tire impressions in human flesh because he's worked on cases like that
01:15:36
before with the police. and he is immediately like fucking amazed by the work she's already done like she said he said that
01:15:46
she came more prepared than a lot of police departments come when they ask him for help
01:15:50
which is amazing yeah she had to be yeah um so she labeled each tire impression with the date
01:15:57
all that stuff he immediately eliminates two of the cars uh that's it's not the tire impressions
01:16:02
and the last three imprints, though, he is interested in. He identifies them as a rare tire,
01:16:08
which if you don't know about tires, they're all rare, right? It's no longer manufactured.
01:16:15
It's the gold Sonic 78s for you tire heads out there. There's got to be one, right?
01:16:21
Oh man the 78 was insane It was like ridges There was ridges but also cracks That right Yeah Amazing tire So he has to find out the exact match the exact manufacturer the brand the size
01:16:36
And Crystal's photos don't have size reference because they're just on her head.
01:16:40
So it's not like he can measure them because she was a four-year-old. Yeah. And four-year-olds grow.
01:16:45
So he is able to figure out when the human skull grows between four and seven. It doesn't really.
01:16:51
So she's seven years old now. so he's able to take the measurement. It's a lot of math and science.
01:16:58
These are the tire treads, actual treads. Wow. I don't know. This is the knot one.
01:17:02
That's the one. It's really extensive and complicated. Was that just a still from forensic files?
01:17:11
You don't ever do that? Oh, I do that all the time. Yeah, I know, but usually if you're watching the whole episode,
01:17:17
then you know what it means. I listen to it. Do you know that you can just, there's a podcast that's just Forensic Files now?
01:17:25
Oh, really? Yeah. It's just Forensic Files. On the plane over today, I was just like, this is Forensic Files in my ears.
01:17:31
That's great. Yeah. So Jay did that. Nice. Thanks, Jay. Okay. So he, not Steven, he doesn't have to do that anymore.
01:17:42
Thank God for him. Okay. So he finds all these little things, and there's like these skin marks that do things when tires tread a certain way and cut things.
01:17:53
He's able to eliminate two of the Sonic 78 imprints since they have very little wear.
01:17:58
But the last imprint shows the same degree of wear and matches the size of that, what was on Vicky's face.
01:18:05
And so in the forensic files, they call him Bob Jones, the dude who did it, because I think it's civil and not criminal, so they can't name him.
01:18:14
But it's the dude who fucking poked his head in and she started screaming. It was totally him.
01:18:20
So in 1985, five years after Vicki's hit and run, Crystal Lyons filed suit against the Big Spring Herald, the newspaper,
01:18:29
claiming that this dude, Bob Jones, hadn't taken the proper precautions while backing his truck out of the parking lot.
01:18:35
The accident would mean a lifetime of neurological difficulties for Vicki, and Crystal wanted justice.
01:18:41
So Vicki needed dozens of surgical procedures because the accident damaged so much,
01:18:46
and she does get better, and she's able to attend school. Crystal Lyons says she didn't sue the Big Spring Herald just for financial motives.
01:18:57
She wants them to take responsibility for the accident that left her daughter permanently disabled.
01:19:03
Vicki says she tries not to think about the accident, but she does remember it. She remembers her mom's supervisor saying,
01:19:09
go play in the parking lot. Not great to tell a kid. No. And she went out there. She had some toy dishes.
01:19:15
She was behind a truck and playing in the sand. And he backed up and didn't know she
01:19:21
was there. Of course not. But the reason Vicky starts screaming when she sees his face
01:19:25
when she goes that day is because she saw him look in the rear view mirror, see her, and drive
01:19:31
off. Wow. So he fucking just... Yeah. Otherwise she wouldn't have known it was him. You know what I mean?
01:19:36
even before the lawsuit Jones, this dude, had suspected that he was the one who ran over Vicky
01:19:44
you fucking think? he commented to Crystal that he didn't think he did it but if he did he was sorry that it happened
01:19:52
our favorite so the Herald wants to settle the case and offers to pay $750,000 for Vicky's care
01:20:01
Crystal accepts it but demands 15 minutes in the judges' chambers with just her and Vicky
01:20:07
with the representative of the Herald alone. Wow. She wants to fucking be alone with him.
01:20:13
And Crystal, she's there with him and Vicky tells him that he destroyed her life
01:20:18
and they tell him to fuck off, I'm assuming. I wasn't there. And that's the end of the lawsuit.
01:20:24
And the Herald doesn't report the news of their own settlement in their fucking newspaper.
01:20:29
Yeah. Which is amazing. Today the newspaper has new owners and completely new staff.
01:20:34
So don't go to their offices and pick it or whatever. Crystal's able to arrange for the best medical care for Vicki.
01:20:42
Vicki learns to speak and walk again, and she tries to put the accident in the past.
01:20:48
And she finishes high school and moves to Charlotte North Carolina where she attends the Art Institute studying mass media Wow Okay Mass media
01:21:01
I'm sorry to say she does die from unrelated issues in 2011 at 34 years old. But here's the thing.
01:21:10
She had become a professional wrestler with the title... What? The Lioness. Yes!
01:21:16
Are you kidding me? how fucking badass is she that's amazing she works for the high sports wrestling school in Charlotte
01:21:28
which Vince totally knows about of course she becomes the lioness there's videos of her wrestling online
01:21:33
that you can watch on YouTube and she's just this fucking badass her friends say that she lived for wrestling
01:21:38
it was at every practice I think she taught as well she also enjoyed belly dancing
01:21:43
was an animal lover she owned dogs and cats which is like, how do you even do that?
01:21:50
And Crystal Lyons went on to become a forensic scientist. Whoa, are you serious?
01:21:57
Holy shit. And that is the insane, awesome story of Crystal and Vicki Lyons. Wow.
01:22:05
Amazing, right? That's incredible. That's impressive. Tenacity. Yeah. Shit. Yeah.
01:22:13
That's awesome. We don't have time for a hometown except... We have a little surprise for you.
01:22:19
So, you know, as we said at the beginning of the show, first of all, that we've been coming here to you guys in Dallas and Houston and touring.
01:22:33
You guys have been a stop on the tour since we very first started touring. because of all our listenership,
01:22:42
the highest concentration of MFM listeners is in Texas. Yeah. It's incredible. So we've come here so many times,
01:22:54
and we have done so much studying of your insane murders. There's just always so many to choose from.
01:23:00
And as we said, we constantly use Texas Monthly as a resource. Yeah. and one of the writers of Texas Monthly that we have used many a time
01:23:09
that we are huge fans of, and I'm sure you are huge fans of too, we'd like to bring him out right now.
01:23:15
It's Mr. Skip Hollinsworth. He's right here. Yeah. Nice to meet you. Hello. Thank you so much.
01:23:32
Come here. Come over here. You guys! He's not mad at us. Look! He's not mad we stole all of his articles and re-read them.
01:23:44
Or are you? This is your chance. This is your chance to tell us. No, it's the greatest in the world.
01:23:52
Where are you from originally? I'm from Wichita Falls. And my daughter loves to describe your show as hot feminist talk among women who have a penchant for murder.
01:24:04
Yeah. That sounds right. And you're always going to come back because we have this ability down here
01:24:12
to step over the line from normality to inexplicable rage. Now, we have a little bit of an anecdote for you.
01:24:25
Just when we were in, do you remember what city we were in? I don't know what story you're telling.
01:24:29
Oh, I'm sorry. I thought we were sharing a mind. My mistake. No, no, it was the other, it was like two weeks ago after the show, we have this now almost forced ritual where we go home, we order food, we go into our separate hotel rooms, we sit down and then we both put on forensic files at the same time.
01:24:49
And so we watch forensic files and this was probably two weeks ago, we both text each other at the same time because you came up as a talking head in one of the cases and we both immediately were sending pictures of you to each other.
01:25:02
It was like the same screen grab of your face. It was crazy. I just can't explain how honored I am by that idea.
01:25:14
Do you want to tell us your hometown or your favorite story? Yeah anything Anything Anything You mean my favorite murder story Yeah Well there so many
01:25:29
I mean I love the man in Dallas Who I became friends with Charlie The eyeball killer
01:25:33
He was a good friend He was a close friend There's Diane I mean there's great women murders in Texas
01:25:40
There's Diane Zamora Who was the naval Who went to the Navy Academy And persuaded her boyfriend
01:25:46
Who went to the Air Force Academy to kill his ex-girlfriend so she wouldn't bother him.
01:25:51
She was really sweet. There's Marie Robards from Fort Worth who stole Barryham out of her chemistry lab
01:26:01
in high school to kill her father. Yeah, I did that one. So she could go back to live with her mother.
01:26:05
She was real sweet. Well, we couldn't be more excited to meet you in real life, honestly.
01:26:11
And if we... If there weren't true crime journalists, especially the ones to the level that Texas Monthly seems to hire people at,
01:26:23
our show would be so Wikipedia shitty all the time. So we owe you literally so much money.
01:26:32
No, who could have guessed? Well, we'll take some money. Okay. All right. skip holinsworth everybody
01:26:44
thank you my god hero he's a hero it's amazing we are so grateful that we get to do this that this is our job now
01:27:00
it's so incredible and it is only and entirely because of your support and your dedication the
01:27:07
fact that you guys listen to us and we cannot ever thank you enough we'll never be able to
01:27:13
especially especially because half our listeners are in texas are here thank you you're the muscle you guys are the muscle yeah the muscle that makes this
01:27:29
weird true crime body run so thank you so much thank you um you know of course stay saved and do God's missions.
01:27:39
That's important. Please. But more than that, stay sexy. And thank you. Thank you, guys.
01:27:51
Bro, from the show last night to this drive, why is it never chill? Because this is our life. Backstage
01:27:57
on the road. It's loud, messy, real. And that's the best part. Whole crew, no plan, just moving.
01:28:04
Good thing Nissan builds for that kind of chaos. Not just test tracks, real life scenes, late nights, road trips, all of it.
01:28:12
That's why it holds up. Nissan was ranked number one in initial quality among mainstream brands by J.D. Power.
01:28:18
Yeah, you can tell. 2026 Nissan Rogue built for what really happens. For J.D. Power 2025 US Initial Quality Study Award information, visit jdpower.com slash awards.
01:28:30
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01:29:16
Here's the truth. You could literally be adored by everyone and then come home and still get completely ignored by your own cat.
01:29:23
It's classic cat behavior. But new Shiba Premium Puree is a lickable treat that changes all that.
01:29:28
They're protein-rich, made with bone broth, and have the smooth, creamy texture cats go crazy for,
01:29:34
especially when it's hand-fed. Yeah, it's more than a treat. It's a fast pass to favorite human status.
01:29:40
So feed your cat Sheba and go from totally ignored to truly adored in just 12 days, guaranteed,
01:29:46
or your money back. Learn more at Sheba.com.