193 - The Lowest Limit | My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark

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Hello. And welcome to My Favorite Murder. It's a podcast you like, remember? Yeah, remember? That's Karen Kilgara.

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Oh, that's Georgia Hartstar. We're from last week. You remember. It was, I believe, Thursday of last week. Were you last checked in with us?

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And the past 100,000 Thursdays before that. Oh, we've been through so many Thursdays together.

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Guys, it's like we're thirsty. Thirsty Thursday, everybody. Yeah, everyone's favorite day.

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How are you? What's going on? How's your coffee? Good stuff. Gross. So gross. Sorry.

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Sorry. Sorry, Canadians. I forgot that people like my sister who have misophonia, I believe it's pronounced, can't have you just drinking coffee into the mic as a joke.

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Okay. Because they don't like sounds. We just got so many hangups. Yep. Come back, come back.

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I'm sorry. She'll never drink again. She's going to die of thirst. I will. For you, listeners.

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Yeah. What's up with you? You know. I see your sparkly nail polish. Oh, isn't it nice?

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It is really nice. It's because I wanted to watch TV yesterday, but feel guilty just doing nothing but watch TV.

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So I either paint my nails or sew some shit. Oh. Yeah. What have you been sewing?

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Can you say? I'll sew like a vintage dress that has a rip on the side. You know, just mend.

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I'll mend. Little Women style. Yeah. Or I'll paint my nails. And so that's why I have sparkly nails today.

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I'm going to start calling you Jo. Why? Oh. It's one of the sisters. Okay. I wish you wouldn't.

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No, it isn't the best nickname. what's up with you well my dad's in town that's right as you well know because

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I farmed Jim out to Vince thank god for Vince Averill because I couldn't I was like I'm gonna have to have my dad

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come to the studio while we record for two hours and we're gonna be in a little room yelling fuck

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and my dad's gonna be sitting outside with his arms crossed and he'll be like no I'm fine here

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well it's fine but he can't like sit because his hip is weird or whatever Either that or like try to wrangle him into an Uber by himself.

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Never. Right. Couldn't do it. Yeah. Couldn't do it. My sister had him take an Uber to a fireman's lunch recently because she's like, do not

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drive to a fireman's lunch where all you do is drink. And but we were both so worried.

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We're like, what if it's a really low car? He can't get into an out of a low car.

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Plus, is he just going to get into a stranger's car? No, he's going to need to see his ID.

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I don't know. My dad drives an Uber and I don't even think he can know how to order and get into

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and take a ride from an Uber of his own car. It was like if it was if he calls one, he won't get

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it. I was actually just telling him how proud I am that he is the kind of person that at least

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tries to operate in the modern world. Yeah, because I said and he said this to me because we of course

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we immediately start talking about politics and the way things are because it makes me very happy

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that my dad is not a Republican. You're so lucky. And I'm sorry to brag at you. I wish you would keep,

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I just, I have hope still. But I said, part of it must be the intense fear. People who grew up

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without computers at all, it's younger people can't imagine it. But like my parents,

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people, baby boomers, most people of that age, it's not just liberals. They want to use the word liberals

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to say that's the enemy or that's who's ruined everything. What they're really scared of

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is technology because they don't understand it and they don't, interact with it that much and when they don't trust it yeah they yeah when they do it's like

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oh everyone's coming to get your thing lock your door and buy this flag you know that's like what

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their media that what they turn to for comfort is and so it's just like i'm like dad it's just

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the idea that you just have that iphone yeah text us and you try to do things yeah it's like the

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whole the spirit of all of it is just like get in there a little bit look you're old but you're

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still doing shit that's all we're saying just live in the fucking real world you're basically

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one of the golden girls just on a click off like you told your children so many years before turn

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off that tv set right get away from the the pipeline that says you you should be in fear of the other person right but don go overboard like marty and go full into Instagram I feel like when I was 16 and first got on the internet and was in chat rooms and shit

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and I know my dad would have fucking broken my neck if he had known that I was just talking to strangers.

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Just whoever. Yeah. Just take all comers. Now he's doing it. Yeah. Because now he's 16 on the internet.

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That's right. 60-year-olds are 16. Hence all the emojis he sends me. Oh, my God.

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What's his number one emoji? from Marty. What's his number? His phone number. Can I call Marty? He'll do a lot of cars like I'm

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headed over car or like I'm headed over to your car in a car to your house emoji or you know like

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it's like a thumbs up emoji. Oh that's good. Yeah. Ones that I don't use. I feel like

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I feel like the emoji use. I think I told you this when my sister first started using emojis.

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it made me laugh so hard because it is the opposite of her personality. It's like this super cutesy.

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So she'd be like, call me, dummy. And then it'd be like, puppy, rainbow, laughing with crying.

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I love the random ones. Yes. She'll just hit six of them. Do you know your sister texts me sometimes?

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She does. When there's a really cute Elvis drawing on the internet, she'll send it to me.

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I know. Look at this. It's very sweet. It makes me happy. You know what it is? She is a lurker of our whole situation.

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She enjoys it, but she isn't going to enjoy it to our faces. Right. That's not how she does it.

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No, but I think she can be a little sweeter to me in that way because we don't have just decades of this bad history.

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Of huge scars. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Just long, you know. Ugly scars. Yeah. That's right.

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Speaking of. Thank you for allowing it. Yeah. Teach me. well try it with my sister sometime and then we'll talk uh lee and i have great conversations

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when i see her at like your parties and stuff i like her yeah she's her personality is more like

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yours than mine actually yeah that's weird okay switchy switchy um there's a new mfm animation

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that's out by nick terry so good this one's a simple one of the cello it is the cutest it's so

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cute funniest i mean i thought the mothman the mothman is the best one to date i think it's so

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good and those sunglasses are so hilarious and i i have the sunglasses i have a bat costume and i

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have a plan for halloween yes girl check my instagram it's going up girl i'm not no more

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let's say no more but it makes me so happy that like as a kid playing cello the humiliation i

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went through for it like paid off yes there's for a reason that this sad girl played cello it's all

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We are scooping up all the childhood sadnesses and traumas and we're processing them and

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allowing our listeners to process for us. That's right. It's a real nice favor y'all are doing.

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You guys are helping. You're helpers. Look for yourselves. So when he made you so tiny next to that child.

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And then I yelled, it's not about me. It was so good. So cute. Nick Terry, thank you so much.

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Yeah. You really enhanced the podcast. Yes. It's so exciting. Yeah. to come upon those and also to be able to show people like uh i got to show my friend who is

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from wisconsin the um dairy queen cheese wheel parade one yeah yeah that is so hilarious and i

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can't even explain no it's hilarious and i would never replay dream yes it's insanity and none of

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i don't think either of us would play the podcast where people would be like let's be funny but it's

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almost like, look, this is what we mean when we say it. This happened. He came into our brains and was like, I got this.

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And you don't even have to worry about it or be talented artistically. God bless you, Nick Terry.

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God bless you. God bless you to all the murderino makers who draw just the cutest shit right now.

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The treasure one. There's like a whole treasure. Treasure's amazing. Thing going on for each other.

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The other one that I loved was really simple. It looked like a children's book. And it was us.

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Oh, I posted that. The blue. Oh, my God. I think this Inktober is a thing, and I think the word of the week is treasure.

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And so all these people are drawing. I know. Amazing. It's too much. It's cute. We are lucky, lucky.

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Thanks, you guys. Thanks, guys. Very talented out there. Speaking of, not speaking of, you know me by now, my favorite weekend, November 1st and

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2nd in Santa Barbara. The packages are sold out, but there's single tickets to the show.

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So you don't even have to come see us. You can go see Murder Squad or the Purrcast.

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Pick the show you want and go see it. Or can we announce that we're doing a live show with Ayo Tillett Wright, our special guest?

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Sure. We're so excited. Right? We're allowed to. We are. But I mean, we are doing that.

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Yeah. It's basically... Like in conversation with. Yeah. And we're going to make him talk about how he made Billy Balls.

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And apparently, there's going to be some pictures, never before seen content from the show that Georgia was so obsessed with.

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The Ballad of Billy Balls. You guys haven't listened to it yet on the podcast platforms.

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Yes. Get out there and listen because it's a really beautifully well done true crime, but also almost just like family deep dive.

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Yeah. It's such a good podcast. It is. And we're huge fans of his. And we're going to this hopefully is the first of many collabs we do with him.

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Yeah. So go to MyFavoriteWeekend.com to get tickets. If you're in L.A., drive up.

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If you're in San Francisco, drive down. Yes. Okay. I get that wrong. I always drive up to places.

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If you're in Reno, drive south. Across. Yes. You know where you are and which way it is.

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We don't have to tell you. Do we have to tell you how to get to Santa Barbara? Because we're going to give you the wrong direction.

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Yeah. We're not the people. And then, of course, we have the fan cult. And we're doing special videos every week on Fan Cult Friday, where we post some weird

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talking head of all of us videos. Yeah. Someone doing something. Karen is about to read my moon Your moon cards Okay Yes I keep wanting to call them Luna cards but I realize that because of Luna bars

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Oh, right. They're not affiliated. You're going to watch us eat Luna bars on this video.

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Oh, it takes forever. We chew. So much chewing. It doesn't go away. And there's also exclusive merch, which I think is really cool.

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And then also you're going to be able to buy gift memberships for your friends and family.

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In the Fan Cult store. fan cult store. So there's an exclusive fan cult store that you can only shop in if you're part of

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the fan cult. But you can see it all at myfavoritemurder.com. You can shop it and look

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at it from outside. Whatever you want in the car. Decide. And then you go, this is worth 40 bucks.

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A year. A year. A year. Break it down. All we charge you normally is your heart and soul and deep

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devotion. And sometimes sleep. A little touch of sleep and maybe your feeling of security while you sit in your apartment

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by yourself. But still. You should lock your door. Other than that, it's a fan cult.

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It roughly turns out to about a quarter a day. That's right. The same as a cup of coffee.

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I made it all up. Hold on. Can I just talk really quick about a story that was in the news recently?

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Please. Many, many people sent this to us on Twitter. I wasn't there. Okay. So last week, well, October 15th, this story broke.

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There was a Dutch family who were found in a secret room in their farmhouse. and they had been waiting for the end of time for nine years.

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No, that's too long. Yeah. It's a really long time to wait in a small room under a set of stairs like Harry Goddamn Potter.

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They just stayed there? Yeah. So here's the story in this. It's let's just say Drenth.

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Okay. But or Drentha. That's right. Drentha. It could be anything. It could be Trenta like at Starbucks.

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The order, the size that everyone's afraid to order. Only the bold get a Trenta.

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So that basically a guy shows up in a local bar in this city that only, or town, I should say, because it only has 3,000 people in it.

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And he rolls up to this bar and this bartender says a guy came in, ordered five beers and drank them.

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And they started talking. Bold, I like it. Right. He's a bold move. He's my type.

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and the bartender said he had a chat with them and he told them this story that immediately made him call the police and the story was that the guy had long hair, a dirty beard,

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he had old clothes on and he looked very confused. He said he had never been to school,

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he hadn't seen a barber in nine years and that he and his sisters and brothers lived on this farm.

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He was the oldest and he wanted to end the way they were living. So when the police went to the

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farmhouse, they've discovered a hidden staircase behind a cupboard in the living room that

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led down to a secret room where this family of, I believe, six people were being held.

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There's some unbreakable Kimmy Schmidt stuff. Isn't it? Kimmy Schmidt shit. Schmidt shit is what it is.

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Yeah. The quote that Stephen pointed out to me, which is hilarious, is the local postman said he'd

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never delivered a letter to that address. and then he went it's actually pretty strange now that i come to think about it

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i mean this story just shows you really more than anything else the power of beer

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yeah at the end of the day the thing that'll get you out of fucking hibernation is beer i mean i'm

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such a believer but well um sometimes coffee works too yeah coffee's great but you know if

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you've been say if you've been in a cupboard for nine years you go down and take a walk down tell

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maybe share your story and your haircut yeah with someone nearby that runs a place that has a phone

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tell your barber or tell your bartender yeah they'll listen they will and they'll keep those

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secrets if need be or just call 9-1-1 or call call 9-1-1 if uh more like be need be if need be um

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i hate when people create the end of the world when they're hiding from it i know i know that's

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sad. It is a sad story. It's a sad story. But in a way, aren't we all every day creating the end

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of the world? We need to hiding from the apocalypse of the cupboard of your apocalypse. Karen,

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stop it. That is so good. It's true, right? You can kind of do that to any statement anyone makes.

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But I love the apocalypse. Like that's a good, like that's a good friend of mine. Yeah. Well,

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the apocalypse is great because it's that idea that there is going to be this very succinct end

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to all of our pain. Impending doom. But there's not going to be it. Usually it's just regular life.

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Yeah. So you gotta buck up and get out of your apocalypse cupboard. Please. Get a haircut.

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Get a trim. Yeah. And fucking get a couple beers in you and live your life. And if you can't afford to go

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to the barber slash hairdresser right now. Or don't drink, which is fine. You can, yeah.

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So here's your options. You can go to the bartender and drink. You can stay home

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and cut your own hair drunk. That's how I used to do it. You can also do that sober.

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I've done that recently. Very bad idea. Cut your own hair sober? Yes. Yeah, that's right.

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I just thought I was trimming a couple of ends. Yeah. I love that feeling. It is fun.

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Because you shouldn't do it. No, you shouldn't. But what if it's great this time?

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Yeah. What if this time it's the best haircut you've ever had? What if this time it solves all those other problems I have?

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Right. Just by putting scissors to the hair is my idea. And not haircut scissors.

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No. Which I still have a pair from when I went to beauty school when I was 18. Those ones.

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That I continue to use. On your bangs? Yeah. Because they're real sharp. Well, not for 20...

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Not for the past 20 fucking years. Oh, shit. They're 20 years old. So you use dull, old haircutter scissors.

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Student haircutter scissors. Oof. Do they have a little pinky holder on this? Yeah, they do.

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Yeah, that's classy. It good to pretend that you know what you doing but that about it True this oh What I know what you were going to talk about What Lizzo I wasn but let talk about her

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We went to Lizzo. We saw Lizzo live. That's right. Steven was there. Steven was there.

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And Vince was there. At the Palladian. Steven was there. Vince was there. Brandy Posey was there.

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Yeah. Solomon Giorgio was there. That's right. All our friends in the LA community.

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Yeah. And it was enlightening. It was empowering. Her voice is humongous. It's not like, you know, sometimes you're like, this is trendy or this is popular because this, that or the other thing.

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You're wrong if you think that about Lizzo. Because Lizzo's voice is 10 times huger than anyone's I've ever seen.

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It is operatic. And then the fucking songs are such, they're all anthems or ballads.

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Yeah. They're fucking hits. They're all hits. And then her fucking team of rad women dancers of every possible shape and proportion.

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It's just the best feeling. Look, I bought a shirt. I never buy a shirt. I'm going to yoke that motherfucker and I'm going to wear it with pride.

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We got merch. We worked that show because it was like we got there. Oh, I want to apologize.

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The one girl that came up and talked to us. I was a little, let's say, bewildered because she was screaming.

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Was she? I think it was just really loud in there. Well, I took it as screaming at me.

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So I was a little bit like, uh-oh, what is happening? And then George was like, do you want to take a picture?

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Like, I took from the look on your face of like, no, no, this is a person that's trying.

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And I was like, oh, yeah, hi. And she was trying to talk to me, but it was just the volume was up in a way that I don't like in public.

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Yeah. So it took me a while. So sorry to that person. Yeah. Do you remember? Was her name Stephanie?

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I bet you're right. But I'm so bad. You know I'm so bad. I'm just digging into the random pile.

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She was a doll. So I feel like it must have just been a fluke. It was pure excitement. And like when when we hugged her to take the picture, she was shaking.

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So it wasn't she was not. It's just when you approach, you can't come at screaming.

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I will think it's an emergency. I'm not used to this. It's weird. So if you have your hands over your face and you're screaming, I'm going to think there's some like there's blood coming down my head.

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And I just didn't see the thing fall. What if the one time you don't, there actually is blood coming down your head?

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So like you just have to keep doing it. And also we need to develop a signal. Yeah.

00:20:27

Karen, you have a head injury. Right. The girl's not screaming because she wants to say hi.

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Anyway. Okay. Did that ruin our Lizzo story? The point is if Lizzo's coming to your town.

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Oh my God. And you don't buy a ticket, you're an absolute fool. It was unbelievable.

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I was like to a point where I don't listen to music ever. I was like, I need to listen to this CD.

00:20:47

Is CD story the CD player in my car? You sure do. I need to listen to this. Yes.

00:20:52

My car's from 2015. Are you sure? Oh, maybe it does. Yeah. Burn yourself a CD at the public library.

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No, I want to pay for it. Oh, okay. I want Lizzo to have my CD money. Where? At the warehouse.

00:21:05

Sam Goody. No, every song, every song off of, it's Juice, right? Yeah. Her newest album.

00:21:10

Because I love you. Because I love you. Because I love you. Steven, what was your favorite tune at the, what was your favorite number at the big concert?

00:21:18

I mean the title track just was so Good and like Cause I love you I forget what the name of the song was where everyone

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Pulled out their phones as like the like lighters Oh that's right It just yeah I felt like the crowd was all

00:21:32

In it together yeah yeah I feel Like those people get they either Read on the internet what other people do or they

00:21:38

Were there like Friday night as we were at the Sunday night show yeah it was just

00:21:42

Incredible Stephen I Feel so embarrassed I accidentally when I went to hug your sweet

00:21:48

girlfriend, Brenna, I grazed her boob so hard for her in a really weird, lingering way.

00:21:55

Because I couldn't get away because I went to hug her and I think she went to hug Karen

00:21:58

first, so my hand was just kind of in between you. So we were all in a weird square triangle.

00:22:01

And I just was just like, if I move it now, it's going to be weird. If I yank my hand, you know. So please

00:22:06

apologize to her for me. She's very sweet and I did not mean to feel her up. She's never going to make us

00:22:10

pumpkin bread again because Georgia assaulted her. shit for sodium and sugar content. Ryan Reynolds here from Mint Mobile. I don't know if you knew this,

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Default terms at mintmobile.com. This is Matt Rogers from Las Culturistas with Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang.

00:23:19

This is Bowen Yang from Las Culturistas with Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang. You know when people try a new food and suddenly it's like, wait.

00:23:26

That's the reaction a lot of people are having when they first try Kewpie mayo. It's the one with the red cap and the little baby on the bottle.

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You've probably seen it in the grocery store before. And if you've ever just walked past it, some people would say that's a huge mistake.

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Because this mayo is different. Most mayonnaise uses whole eggs. Kewpie only uses egg yolks,

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Once people try it, they start putting it on everything. Egg sandwiches, fries, burgers.

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Some fans even swear by dipping pizza crust in it. And once you notice it, Start seeing it everywhere.

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Chefs use it. Restaurants use it. People who really care about flavor use it. Never tried it?

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Grab the bottle with the red cap next time you're at the store. Put it on just about anything.

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Then you'll understand. Kupi, the original Japanese mayonnaise. Okay, so this story I'm doing this week, I got the idea from the hometown I read last week

00:24:21

that revealed a Sacramento murder series that I had forgotten all about. I love it.

00:24:28

I want to know more about this one. I did too. It is fucking horrible. And I think, I wonder if it was one of those things where I looked at it and went, absolutely not. I won't do it because it is just, it is so 70s and it's so Sacramento and it's so awful. It's Gerald and Charlene Gallego, the sex slave killers.

00:24:49

Oh dear. Horrible. The sources, Wikipedia, of course, and Murderpedia, which is the murder version of Wikipedia.

00:24:57

Always a good source. Always a good source. And please support them if you have extra money, especially if you read a lot of those articles, because they aggregate a lot of murder articles for us all. There's a lot of people talking about this on Reddit, a lot of goss on Reddit about these stories and people who had kind of like secondhand. My uncle got into the car, which I really, really wanted to put into the into this, but don't think it's the best idea.

00:25:23

Who the hell knows who's on the Internet? Right. But Marty, Marty, get off. There's an article on the CBS 13 Sacramento website that had great information.

00:25:34

There was also a San Francisco Chronicle article by Joan Ryan from 1997. And two women. I'm sorry, people. I don't know if they're women.

00:25:43

Two two people named Kelsey Insko and Tina Galtfelt of the Radford University Psychology Department.

00:25:51

they wrote a comprehensive chronology. It was a dream chronology of these, of what happened in this murder series that I was,

00:26:01

it made me, I wish I had one for every time I told the story, then I would feel like I knew what was going on.

00:26:06

So thank you guys for that work and posting it online. Okay. So let's get into it.

00:26:12

On September 11th, 1978, two teenage friends, 17 year old Rhonda Shuffler and 16 year old Kippy Vance,

00:26:21

They're shopping at Sacramento's Country Club Plaza Mall when a woman approaches them and asks if they want to come smoke pot with her.

00:26:29

And because it's 1978, the girls say yes. And it's a woman. And it's a woman. Safe.

00:26:35

Yep. As the assumption that everyone would make, especially teen girls. So they follow the woman out to her 1973 white Dodge van.

00:26:46

When the woman opens the van door, the girls find themselves face to face with a man holding a 25 caliber pistol.

00:26:52

He tells them to get in. He forces them to lie on their stomachs and he binds their hands and feet with tape.

00:26:58

He then hops into the driver's seat and the woman gets into the passenger side. They get on to the I-80 and they head northeast for about an hour.

00:27:06

They exit the freeway in a little town called Baxter. Once there, they find a secluded location.

00:27:11

The man takes the teen girls out of the van and rapes both of them, then puts them back into the van.

00:27:17

They drive to another remote location. He knocks them both unconscious with a tire iron and then shoots both of them once in the back of the head execution style and leaves their bodies where they are.

00:27:30

So two days later, on September 13th, two migrant farm workers discover Rhonda and Kippy's bodies.

00:27:36

But it would take several years and eight more victims until authorities discover the identities of the killers, husband and wife, serial rapist and killers, Gerald and Charlene Gallego.

00:27:49

Oh, my God. Yeah. Okay. So let's talk about him first. Gerald Armand Gallego. He was born July 17th, 1946 in Sacramento.

00:28:00

He's a son of two career criminals. So he had never met his father, who was Gerald Albert Gallego, basically Gerald Sr., who was doing time in San Quentin when Jerry Jr. was born.

00:28:15

Gerald Sr. would spend the rest of his life in and out of jail. And in 1955, he had the honor of being the first person put to death in Mississippi's brand new gas chamber for murdering two policemen.

00:28:29

So that's his dad, who he never knew. He is raised by his mother Lorraine who is a sex worker on Sacramento's Skid Row.

00:28:37

So not a great childhood. He spent most of it running errands for pimps and being abused by his mother and her many boyfriends.

00:28:50

He was a very neglected child, very needy, always unwashed, really sad, very sad.

00:28:57

and he starts committing crimes and getting in trouble with the law when he's six years old.

00:29:02

Holy fucking shit. Yeah. So in 1959, when he's 13, he's arrested for raping a six-year-old neighbor.

00:29:10

Oh, my God. So after that, they place him in what they called back then a boys' school, which was just juvie.

00:29:16

Right. He's paroled in July of 1961. Almost immediately, he's arrested for armed robbery.

00:29:22

he's sentenced to another stint in the juvenile detention center he escapes then he turns himself in serves about a year

00:29:32

and is paroled again in 1963 so now he's at the ripe old age of 16 and he marries his first wife who's 21 what the fuck

00:29:42

it's just i'm sure it was just because he had no family and no home life so he probably got out of jail and was just like someone hold me

00:29:50

Yeah of 1964 basically a year later his wife gives birth to a daughter Krista and then pretty soon after they get divorced And somehow even though he constantly getting arrested and going

00:30:08

to jail, Gerald manages to get custody of his daughter and he sends her to live with his mother,

00:30:15

the old sex worker. Right. So just to give a little idea. Yeah. By 1977, Gerald's 31 years old.

00:30:24

He's been arrested at least 23 times and he's been married and divorced five times.

00:30:30

Wow. Just live in life. To the lowest. To the lowest limit. Yeah. And it is at this age, 31, when he meets his sixth and most evil wife in a dingy poker club.

00:30:46

Her name was Charlene Adele Williams. So Charlene Williams is born October 10th, 1956.

00:30:53

She's 10 years younger than him in Stockton, California, raised by her parents, Charles and Mercedes in Arden Park, which is a kind of upper middle class neighborhood in Sacramento.

00:31:05

Her father is a hardworking executive for a grocery store chain who worked his way up from being a butcher.

00:31:12

Wow. All the way up the chain into the boardroom. Cool. And Mercedes is a stay at home mom.

00:31:17

So Charlene's an only child, very shy, apparently very smart. they reported her IQ to be 160

00:31:25

wow so by all accounts she should have had a good life yep she's also a talented violinist

00:31:32

I know you enjoy that with your string instruments it's kind of my thing right all that changes in high school though

00:31:41

because that's when her quote unquote rebellious streak takes over she starts drinking and doing drugs

00:31:48

particularly cocaine it's the early 70s I can't imagine anybody wasn't doing tons of drugs

00:31:56

yeah but I feel like if you have that streak of like it's all or nothing there's some people who can dabble and get out of it

00:32:05

and then there's some people who are just like for whatever reason whether it's nature or nurture

00:32:09

just fucking go all in yeah I relate well and also I feel like if she really was kind of a genius

00:32:17

maybe she was bored yeah yeah bored and maybe a little bit stifled sorry i keep throwing words no you can't

00:32:26

stifled by her life because she's probably smarter than what she can the choices she has

00:32:33

to live up to yeah maybe maybe there's a little bit of being a psychopath in there because we don't

00:32:39

know um for sure but there's a there's always that thing too of like living like there's kind

00:32:46

of no boundaries, less sensitivity, more of like, who cares? I'm just going to do what I want.

00:32:52

Yeah, yeah. But who knows? We've never seen any of her paperwork, so we don't know.

00:32:59

Okay. She barely graduates from high school and she fails out of college. Hi. I can relate.

00:33:05

Me too. Same. She also dives into two very brief marriages and is twice divorced by the time she's 20.

00:33:14

Wow. 20. 20. And that's when she meets Gerald. So it's September 1977. 31-year-old Gerald and 19-year-old Charlene are introduced by an acquaintance.

00:33:29

And they meet for the first time at, again, what I called a seedy poker bar in Sacramento.

00:33:33

I tried so hard to find out what bar they're talking about because I love the idea.

00:33:38

But I don't know. I hope it doesn't exist. You mean like what it was called? Yes.

00:33:42

Like the alibi room. Yeah, exactly. I'd be like, we used to go there all the time.

00:33:48

It's not that seedy. They have free popcorn. Charlene would later claim her first impression of Gerald was that he was a, quote, very nice, clean cut fellow who didn't even try to kiss her when they said goodnight at the end of their first date.

00:34:03

And the next day he sent her a dozen roses with a card that reads to a very sweet girl.

00:34:09

So this is the beginning of a truly psychotic love affair. A week later, they move in together.

00:34:15

red flags all around according to Charlene Gerald's demeanor immediately changes

00:34:21

he becomes very controlling he takes her money and her valuables he tells her what to wear

00:34:26

he openly cheats on her she's both afraid of him and excited by him when he begins so at first they have

00:34:37

their obviously their sex life is very passionate and they're both really into it

00:34:43

but then it gets into a lot of, I guess, S&M or BDSM or whatever, which then it starts to go out past what she's

00:34:53

comfortable with, but it's past her control. This is according to her. Almost all the information

00:34:57

that's like editorial like that is according to her, which should be questioned because this is

00:35:03

just like the Carla Homolka situation where it's the person who gets the plea deal that gets to

00:35:08

have their say. And we don't really know who was making the decisions or who was in charge.

00:35:14

But essentially, when Gerald starts having problems keeping an erection during sex, he blames her and starts beating her for it.

00:35:25

Around Gerald's 32nd birthday, July 17th, 1978, Charlene gets pregnant with his baby.

00:35:32

He's not happy. He later makes her get an abortion. And then one day in July of 1978, he brings home a teenage girl for a threesome.

00:35:42

he directs the women not to touch each other but to only touch him so the next day

00:35:48

he comes home to find Charlene having sex with the girl what the fuck yes he explodes

00:35:54

he throws the girl out there was one website that actually said he threw the girl out the window What the fuck But that was only on one website So I don know

00:36:05

Somebody could have been going crazy as they wrote up their stuff. But he basically gets rid of the girl, and then he and Charlene have a fight.

00:36:17

And they apparently had infamous fights. Neighbors had to call cops all the time on them.

00:36:21

So it wasn't, you know, it wasn't like everything was going great because they were, you know, indulging in all this crazy shit.

00:36:29

These these plans to, like, basically get very sexually experimental weren't solving their marital problems.

00:36:38

What? No, I know. Hear me out. What am I going to? That's my plan to fall back on one day.

00:36:43

Here's a mask with a zipper for a mouth. This will solve everything. I got it from American Horror Story season six.

00:36:51

Okay, according to Charlene, so after basically she gets caught having this tryst, this is the fight that sparks the conversation that leads to the couple agreeing that they need sex slaves.

00:37:05

Okay. All right. I don't see the through line there, but I mean, that's her story.

00:37:10

So they make the plan that they're going to go out, drive around, lure teen girls into their van, kidnap, and rape them.

00:37:17

They decide that together. Jesus. So they enact this plan on September 11th, which was the day that Charlene lures Rhonda and Kippy into the van.

00:37:28

Wow. That was their first experience. Yeah. Oh, my God. Yeah. I mean, aside from he clearly had no problem because he he was used to doing crimes and he had done all kinds of stuff before.

00:37:41

But, yeah, this this was, as far as we know, the first time she ever participated in it.

00:37:46

Two weeks after that, on September 27th, Gerald's daughter, Krista, who is, I believe, 14 or 15, files charges against her father for incest, sodomy, oral copulation and unlawful intercourse.

00:38:02

It turns out Gerald Gallego had been raping his daughter since she was six years old.

00:38:07

Yeah. So Charlene steals her. This is her solution. She steals her cousin's birth certificate so that Joe can travel under the alias Stephen Thiel.

00:38:18

And three days later, on November 30th, they leave town. They go to Reno. They get married.

00:38:25

And then they flee to Houston to get to escape the charges. But they came back eight months later, June 24th, 1979.

00:38:34

And they drive up to Reno. and there they abduct 14-year-old Brenda Judd and 13-year-old Sandra Colley.

00:38:44

This is like... That's insane. It's so young. It's so young. They go to the Washu County Fair in Reno and basically troll around

00:38:52

and find these two girls who are in junior high. And they do it the same way that they did with their first victims,

00:39:01

This time only they offer to pay Brenda and Sandra money to help to help them put flyers on cars in the fair parking lot.

00:39:09

So these girls thought they were getting a job and probably like, oh, we can make money.

00:39:13

We can go into the fair and buy that thing we wanted. Yeah. But of course, she Charlene walks the girls over to the van to get the flyers.

00:39:24

And at the van, Gerald pulls a gun on the girls, forces them to get into the van at gunpoint.

00:39:30

he rapes them he beats both of the girls to death with a hammer and a shovel and then leaves their

00:39:36

bodies in the nevada desert holy fuck yeah september of 1979 they move back to sacramento

00:39:42

but they're still um using the name feel as the alias um so gerald gets work as a bartender

00:39:49

and he has an affair with a woman named patty um so this is just the kind of stuff that was like

00:39:54

open and they're basically posing as other people now. Yeah. April 24th, 1980. Gerald wakes up and tells Charlene he wants a girl.

00:40:05

So they drive to the Sunrise Mall in Sacramento and they see two 17 year old girls named Karen

00:40:12

Twiggs and Stacey Redican and they're leaving a bookstore in the mall. And that would be the last time those two girls were seen alive.

00:40:21

and then two months later on June 7th, 1980, Gerald and Charlene again out trolling for victims

00:40:31

spot a woman hitchhiking alone. It's 21-year-old Linda Aguilar and she is four months pregnant.

00:40:39

She sees that she's being offered a ride from a couple so presumably she thought it was safe to go with them.

00:40:46

Her raped and beaten body would be found over two weeks later on June 22nd. Um, on July 17th, 1980, the Lagos spot 34 year old Virginia Mochel.

00:40:58

And she's walking in the parking lot of the West Sacramento Tavern where she's a bartender.

00:41:03

And actually the couple knows Virginia socially. They had met her before, but they still decide to make her a victim.

00:41:11

What the fuck? And, um, they kidnap her at gunpoint. It's all the same. and Virginia Motchall's skeletal remains

00:41:18

would be found three months later outside of Clarksburg, which is about 20 minutes south of Sacramento.

00:41:25

So it's basically this pattern that they have now where it's basically grab girls by gunpoint

00:41:32

and then basically drive them out of town and rape and murder them and then just kind of like,

00:41:38

no one is tracking any of it. It's a spree and no one, yeah. Yeah. On July 27th, 1980,

00:41:44

The brutalized bodies of Stacey Redican and Karen Twiggs are both found in shallow graves in a remote part of Limerick Canyon, Nevada.

00:41:54

Both of their hands had been bound with macrame rope and their cause of death for for both girls was multiple blows to the head with a hammer like weapon Um

00:42:05

so, uh, later on they would actually find pictures in Gerald Gallagos's possession of

00:42:12

him with like friends in that same Canyon. Like when they finally start putting it all together and get the evidence of,

00:42:19

um, that he and Charlene are responsible for these murders. it's like they're basically just taking these girls to places that they've been to and that

00:42:27

they already knew um yeah and so uh a couple months later in the early morning hours of november 2nd

00:42:35

uh 1980 gerald and charlene are once again cruising the mall it's like so heartbreaking

00:42:42

too because that was like right when the mall was getting to be like the place you had to go

00:42:47

as a teenager and just knowing that there are these monsters that are just circling outside

00:42:52

It feels like it was so like regular, but the 70s and 80s mall kidnappings. Yeah.

00:42:58

I'm just like morbidly fascinated by because it was it's just such a like innocence lost kind of thing.

00:43:04

Yeah. Because there was also a lot of like a lot of stuff that was built in and around malls.

00:43:11

You'd have like there'd be like an arcade. There was always an arcade. Yes. It's for kids to hang out.

00:43:17

It's for kids after high school to shop and be around other kids and stuff. So it's like they should have the second they built those things, they should have like, and this is the security plan for keeping the creeps away.

00:43:27

Predators everywhere. But yeah, that was before. Yeah, it was before. Before. OK, so they're out cruising this mall looking for their next victim when they see 22 year old Craig Miller and his fiancee, 21 year old Mary Elizabeth Soares.

00:43:43

They've just left a frat party that was actually it was like a dance that was held in the mall's arcade.

00:43:50

so they had just walked outside their friends were behind them um when the van pulls up and

00:43:57

gerald gets out of the van pulls the gun on this young couple and tells them to get into the van

00:44:02

so craig and mary's friends walk out of the arcade right as they're watching their friends

00:44:07

get into this white van and they don't know why um and they got the license plate number holy shit

00:44:15

So Jay looked through our emails and we have a listener named Lauren M. And she is the daughter of these friends who saw the van.

00:44:25

And she wrote us in a hometown. So here it is. Oh, my God. Okay. It just starts high.

00:44:31

Between the years of 1978 and 1980, the sex slave murderers were terrorizing Sacramento.

00:44:37

They would abduct young girls, usually in groups of two or three, into their van and rape and murder them.

00:44:43

Their bodies were found with many bullet wounds, usually in a remote field. My mom was a freshman college student at Sacramento State at the time and recalls being terrified to leave her dorm room.

00:44:54

My dad was a junior and president of his fraternity. At this point, eight murders had taken place, and my parents recalled that the buzz around town was to be cautious of anyone with a white van, as it was the only real eyewitness info that the police had gotten.

00:45:09

So on November 1st, 1980 My dad's fraternity was holding a formal In an arcade that was attached to the local mall

00:45:17

As my mom and dad were leaving With their friends Craig Miller And Mary Elizabeth Sowers

00:45:22

To go home My parents announced that they had to use the restroom So Craig and Mary waited outside the arcade

00:45:27

While my parents went back in to pee When my mom and dad came back outside Craig and Mary were stepping into a white van

00:45:35

My dad asked Craig If everything was alright and if they knew who the man and women around the van were.

00:45:41

Craig responded everything was okay and just to get out of here. My dad thought it was odd as Craig seemed harsh and upset,

00:45:48

which wasn't his usual attitude. Both my parents left, and three days later, the bodies of both Craig and Mary were found near a local lake.

00:45:55

Oh, my God. They had no clothes on. Both had been raped and shot. Holy fuck. My dad wrote down the license plate number of the van they were getting into that night.

00:46:04

Thank God. Amazing. Amazing. that license plate number was how they found the killers their names are gerald gallego and

00:46:11

charlene williams gallego's father was the first man put to death by gas chamber in the state of

00:46:16

mississippi and then she wrote i guess murder runs in the family and gallego was only 13 when

00:46:22

he first raped a six-year-old girl the couple were looking for the perfect sex slave to hold hostage

00:46:27

my dad had to testify in court and gallego was sentenced to death in the gas chamber

00:46:32

spoiler alert his wife and accomplice turned on him to get a lesson sentence he died of cancer

00:46:39

and she's been released she claims yeah get ready she claims that we'll get to that part later okay

00:46:46

the couple's death wrecked both of my parents they never talk about it as they place a lot of

00:46:51

blame on themselves i find murder fascinating so i try to ask questions but both of my parents

00:46:56

are very, very sensitive when the topic is brought up. Yeah. My dad claims the years following were some of the darkest in his life

00:47:04

as the trial and sentencing were dragged on and on, and he was forced to relive that night many times.

00:47:11

My mom has expressed that she thinks of that night almost every day. If my parents hadn't gone to the bathroom, who knows what would have happened.

00:47:18

They could have been taken as well, or maybe Craig and Mary would still be alive.

00:47:22

it looks to me like they would have been taken as well and they would have been dead

00:47:26

and then she just writes thanks for letting me share this story Lauren M isn't that unbelievable

00:47:34

that's crazy yeah crazy it's crazy so essentially because of Lauren's parents very smart people

00:47:44

who very sensitive to what was actually happening and not going like oh alright see you later

00:47:49

they were like this isn't right It feels wrong. I'm writing this down because of them and them only.

00:47:55

The police were able to track down the Galegos is get their, address and they end up arresting Gerald at a Western Union office.

00:48:04

And he was there trying to pick up money that Charlene's parents had just wired to them.

00:48:09

So Charlene is also arrested. And after she's questioned by the police for hours, she finally breaks and agrees to tell

00:48:16

authorities everything in exchange for a plea deal, as it always goes. So Gerald Gallego's trial lasts six months.

00:48:25

He's found guilty of the murders of Craig Miller and Mary Sowers. And on June 21st, 1983, he's sentenced to death by the gas chamber at San Quentin.

00:48:34

June 1984, he has to go to Nevada for the kidnapping and murder of Karen Twiggs and Stacey Redican.

00:48:43

And there the jury takes just four hours to find him guilty and and also sentence him to death.

00:48:51

and because of her plea deal in November of 1983, Charlene is sentenced to 16 years and

00:48:58

8 months in prison. It's just not long enough. It's not. In 1991, Nevada goes to release her on good

00:49:06

behavior 6 years early but authorities in California find out and inform her attorney

00:49:12

that if they, or maybe they inform that I actually assumed that it was the attorney but now that I'm reading it out loud

00:49:18

they could have just called Nevada directly But they basically said, if you release her, we'll just arrest her on other charges and make her serve the rest of her sentence in California.

00:49:28

So she ended up staying in Nevada and serving her full sentence there. She claimed that she wanted to stay in Nevada because because because she turned on Gerald.

00:49:40

He told her he was going to kill her and that he had connections in the California prison system and she was afraid to go to California.

00:49:48

Fuck her. Yeah. So Charlene Gallego moved back to Sacramento after she got out of jail and continues to live there now under the name Mary Martinez.

00:49:59

Oh, my God. And since her release in 1997, she's given interviews about the crimes that she and Gerald committed.

00:50:07

She claims that she was suffering from battered woman syndrome and that Gerald forced her into being his accomplice.

00:50:13

She's quoted as saying there were victims who died and there were victims who lived.

00:50:18

It's taken me a hell of a long time to realize I'm one of the ones who lived. Here's a problem.

00:50:25

No one fucking lived. There weren't any victims who lived. Here's the other problem.

00:50:31

It's a real big issue with psychopaths to make everything sad for them. Right. To not, what person, it seems to me, the people who actually suffer from battered women's syndrome

00:50:43

and are roped into these horrible relationships, they don't come out talking about how sad it is for them.

00:50:50

Right. Because they understand and live in this terrible guilt. They talk about how much they didn't want to do these things

00:50:55

and how horrible these things are. And how sorry they are and how horrible it is.

00:50:58

Yeah. Leading with the I'm a victim is not the way to go. No. Is not smart. And it's not a good indicator of what's actually happening in her mind.

00:51:06

Totally. Neither is this. So apparently she gave birth to Gerald's son while she was in prison.

00:51:12

Oh, fuck. And that son would grow up and later join the army. And he ended up dying in Afghanistan.

00:51:20

So when Charlene got out of jail, she started a charity called Gold Country for the Troops.

00:51:26

And she said it was for raising money to support friends and families of veterans.

00:51:32

But since that interview where she was interviewed, it's been looked into. And that charity has reportedly turned out to be a scam.

00:51:40

Oh, shit. Yeah. On July 18, 2002, Gerald Gallego died of cancer in Eli State Prison in Nevada at the age of 55.

00:51:50

And that is just another horrifying Sacramento story. This time it's the sex slave murderers Gerald and Charlene Gallego.

00:51:59

Fuck, Sacramento. Fuck. I never knew that Sacramento was this hotbed. Sacramento is the Pacific Northwest of California.

00:52:07

It is. It really is. It is. Why is that? Because it's so fucking hot? It's well, I think, you know, if we had to go line by line, I bet you there's just as many super fucked up things in San Francisco and way more fucked up things in Los Angeles.

00:52:20

Sure. But I think it's because in that area, it's a little bit like country. Yeah.

00:52:27

Farmland, bucolic. It seems like it's small town, even though it's the capital. Yeah.

00:52:31

But the murders that come out of there seem to be, to quote law and order, especially heinous.

00:52:37

Yeah. Special victims unit. it's always like the fucking the vampire killer it's always

00:52:45

Eron's the guy that rapes women for years and just keeps getting away it's like deeply nightmarish

00:52:52

up there for some reason I'm fucking so hot it is so hot to compound everything it's hot

00:53:01

so you have to keep your windows open at night it's so hot that during the day the asphalt melts

00:53:06

and you can just smell it oh my god melting holy shit get high off those fucking fumes i did my best i was all down near the ground all the time

00:53:15

guys what is that a penny karen you did great thank you proud of you for graduating thank you

00:53:21

from sacramento oh bad news i didn't graduate no no just leaving it oh graduating from the city

00:53:25

yeah no you're right i got my master's in sacramento master's in getting the fuck out

00:53:31

of sacramento all right well that was horrible thank you you're welcome great job thank you

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You've probably seen it in the grocery store before. And if you've ever just walked past it, some people would say that's a huge mistake.

00:55:03

Because this mayo is different. Most mayonnaise uses whole eggs. Kewpie only uses egg yolks, which gives it this rich umami flavor.

00:55:11

It's smoother, deeper, and almost buttery. Once people try it, they start putting it on everything.

00:55:16

Egg sandwiches, fries, burgers. Some fans even swear by dipping pizza crust in it.

00:55:21

And once you notice it, you start seeing it everywhere. Chefs use it. Restaurants use it.

00:55:25

People who really care about flavor use it. Never tried it? Grab the bottle with the red cap next time you're at the store.

00:55:31

Put it on just about anything. Then you'll understand. Kupi, the original Japanese mayonnaise.

00:55:38

This story, it started on the weekend when Vince and I got home from going out and just were watching Unsolved Mysteries.

00:55:45

this episode I'd never seen came up. And I was like, ooh, and like looked it up. And then it

00:55:50

brought me to a blog post about it at none other than True Crime Diary by Michelle McNamara. She

00:55:58

had written about it. Yes. I was like, okay. And it's like rabbit hole-y and brings you down,

00:56:02

down, down. Yeah. And did it give you massive chills? Yes. To be like, what's this click?

00:56:07

And then... And it kind of was like, it kind of justified this story for me. I was like,

00:56:10

if Michelle McNamara thought this was cool enough to dedicate a blog post to it, then

00:56:14

And I can talk about it. And we've talked about Michelle and her writing and everything a lot on the show.

00:56:19

But truly, if you've never read her blog, True Crime Diary, do yourself a favor.

00:56:24

If you're going to get lost on any true crime website anywhere, her writing is so beautiful.

00:56:30

She makes you I feel like I know so many like cold cases by heart because of the way she wrote about them.

00:56:35

Yeah. And these little ones, too. I mean, she just she's so smart. And I fall asleep to her book almost every night.

00:56:41

So it just feels like part of my world now. So when I found out about this, that she had covered this, I was like, great.

00:56:46

Yeah. I also got a lot of information from a article in the Chinook Observer. Oh, okay.

00:56:52

By Natalie St. John. There was a KIRO 7 article or KIRO 7 article. I don't know.

00:57:00

Oh, yeah. KIRO? You mean out of Chinook? I love those guys. That news is good. Yeah, that's right.

00:57:07

All the news you need to know. News. All the news you need to. Newsing. News. This is an Unsolved Mysteries fandom site and also Unresolved Podcast is in an episode and they have a Reddit page about it as well.

00:57:20

So this is the story of hitman Gary Kruger. Oh, OK. And a lot of this, most of this takes place in and around the Seattle area.

00:57:30

OK, so let's start with the Unsolved Mysteries episode and what got me interested in the first place.

00:57:36

Mike Emmert is a prosperous Seattle area real estate agent. in the early 2000s. He and his wife, who's also a real estate agent, are partners. Her name is

00:57:47

Mary Beth. They seem to have the perfect life. He's this hardworking, straight-laced dude.

00:57:52

He's one of the area's most well-liked and well-regarded realtors. He had won Realtor

00:57:56

of the Year. He's like fucking aces. On January 4th, 2001, Mike is scheduled to meet up with a

00:58:05

prospective homebuyer, a man Mike had told Mary Beth was named Stephen. Okay. Stephen.

00:58:11

Stephen, what did you do? Stephen, cut yourself out of this story. He had shown him houses before.

00:58:18

So Mike had told Mary Beth that Stephen was in his 50s, walked with a limp, carried a cane,

00:58:24

spoke in an East Coast accent, and claimed to have been relocating from Northern California.

00:58:28

And Mike said he was a little bit of a weirdo. Okay. So Mike and Steven met at a local mall to head to the house around 1130 a.m. on January 4th, 2001, which is weird to begin with.

00:58:40

And the laws have changed because of this case that you can't meet at a second, first location and then go to the house.

00:58:46

Oh, OK. Because it's sketchy. So they go to the house. It's located in Woodinville, a suburb of Seattle that's like upscale.

00:58:55

Sorry, can I ask a question real quick? Like, is that because it throws people off that he was going to the mall, but actually he was going to the house?

00:59:03

Is it like basically because they need to say it make it official? We're both meeting at this house and other people need to know about it.

00:59:10

Actually, I think now they meet at the office and then go to the house. So many people see this person's face and it's not.

00:59:17

And there's like background checks on the people who are looking at houses now because of this case.

00:59:20

So like there's a whole protocol now that wasn't in place back then. OK. So they go to the house.

00:59:26

It's like a kind of upscale house on a private lot far away from the neighboring houses, like outside Seattle.

00:59:33

You know how beautiful and woodsy it is and shit. Yeah. So cut to 2.30 in the afternoon, same day.

00:59:38

The house's owner, who's selling the house, comes home from work to have lunch. She goes in the house and finds the front door of the house ajar.

00:59:47

She's like, fuck. When she goes inside, she hears the sound of running water upstairs.

00:59:52

and as if she's in a fucking horror movie she goes up to check what it is No Uh No I sure she walked up the stairs slowly How about you call that neighbor that six foot five

01:00:05

Yeah. Slowly saying, hello? Is anyone? Is anyone there? Is anyone here? And then she finds a trail of blood.

01:00:12

And guess what? She follows it. No, no. No, those aren't crumbs. No. Do not follow trails of blood.

01:00:19

She follows it to the bathroom where she find Mike Amert's body. Oh, God. He slumped across the bathtub, the showerhead and both faucets are running.

01:00:28

So they're like overflowing. And Mike had been stabbed 19 times. Oh, my God. So police surmise that the murder took planning and experience because it seems like thought out.

01:00:40

They believe the house was chosen because it was far away from the others. They also believe that the Stephen person may have been a hired killer and his limp and cane were a ruse.

01:00:50

Oh, yeah. Especially because the scene suggested that Emert, who was himself a large fit man, had been attacked in an upstairs bedroom and then dragged across the hall into the bathroom.

01:01:02

Wow. So someone with a lot of strength had to have done that. And also who knew how to, like, get people under control.

01:01:08

Right. Or maybe he was like he had hit him first or something. Right. So they also believe that the shower was left running so that the killer could get rid of trace evidence on Mike's body, etc.

01:01:17

And they also think that maybe the cane was the weapon, like had a knife hidden inside of it.

01:01:22

Yeah. Because he was stabbed with like a long knife. It wasn't just like a kitchen knife.

01:01:25

Right. So like a, you know what I mean? Yeah. Horrible. Mike's diamond ring and expensive watch had been stolen from his body and his black Cadillac Escalade had been taken and later found abandoned in a nearby shopping center.

01:01:40

His cell phone and wallet were found in Seattle placed on top of a pay phone at the docks for anyone to find.

01:01:47

Like they wanted someone to find those things. Yeah. So Kings County Sheriff's investigators conducted this like crazy search into Mike's background to see who the fuck would want to have him killed.

01:01:58

They look into his friends, family, his co-workers. They dig deep into his life, interview hundreds of people.

01:02:04

They clear his wife, Mary Beth, and all of Mike's co-workers, and they can't find anyone who have wanted him dead.

01:02:10

He's totally fucking clean. So all signs, though, based on this hit. Oh, so all signs, though, based on the murder point to a professional hitman.

01:02:21

But no one can figure out why or who would want Mike dead. The case is featured on Unsolved Mysteries, like I said.

01:02:28

But unfortunately, it might not have gotten a ton of views or tips because it aired on September 12th, 2001.

01:02:36

Oh, no. Guys, take a couple of weeks off. I mean, but this how many things like that happen?

01:02:42

Yeah. It's crazy. Yeah. Isn't that amazing? Yeah. Just like no. Yeah. No one was watching that show.

01:02:49

Yeah. Guys. And that must have been so frustrating for his fucking his widow who was like, maybe this will help the case.

01:02:55

Yeah. They did have one thing, though, which they kept a secret. That was traces of DNA were found under Emmert's fingernails because he fucking fought.

01:03:05

It's almost like he knew he was going to die and wanted to get evidence. And a drop of blood believed to be from the killer was discovered in Emmert's abandoned Cadillac Escalade.

01:03:15

They ran the DNA but didn't get a hit. That is until the DNA of Mike's killer matches DNA found at the scene of an attempted home invasion 10 years later.

01:03:26

Oh, shit. Let's go there. Okay. On the night of March 26, 2010, in the driveway of an upscale home on Lake Washington, around 1030 p.m., the homeowner, Dr. Craig McAllister, he's an orthopedic surgeon.

01:03:41

He and his 20-year-old son, who was visiting from college, pull up to their house.

01:03:46

And they park on the street because there is like a pile of mulch in the driveway.

01:03:51

So they walk up the driveway. And as they get near the house, a man wearing a ski mask and dressed in all black rises up from behind the pile of mulch.

01:04:02

Oh, my God. Yeah. Awful. You're in trouble. Yes. So the guy says, just relax. He indicates in a calm voice that he had a gun.

01:04:10

And if they cooperate, no one will get hurt. But Craig McAllister, this fucking doctor, he's super smart because he quickly is like,

01:04:19

OK, if this was a normal burglary, the masked dude would have left as soon as we got like

01:04:24

he saw us. This was normal. Plus. So Craig is like, I'm outside with my 20 year old son.

01:04:29

But inside the house is my wife and 13 year old daughter. Oh, he's like, there's no fucking way they're getting in the house.

01:04:35

And he so he's like, let's fucking do this. And he lunges at the masked dude, tackles him with the ground.

01:04:43

They start fucking fighting. Yes. The masked dude starts zapping McAllister with fucking stun gun.

01:04:49

Holy shit. But McAllister still gets the upper hand. Yes. He's fucking fighting despite all of this shit.

01:04:54

Hell yes. Because orthopedic surgeons don't mess around. Put that on your bumper sticker immediately.

01:05:00

They will fix your fucking carpal tunnel and they will fight off a masked intruder.

01:05:05

That's fucking right. Thank you. Thank you, orthopedic surgeons. But then another fucking dude in the ski mask jumps out from the side of the house, comes up and fucking pistol whips Dr. McAllister from behind.

01:05:17

What? And he goes down. So at this point, the son had fucking taken off to call 911 from a neighbor's house.

01:05:24

But the pair of intruders don't take off. They fucking go to the house and start furiously trying to kick the front door in.

01:05:32

To the house where the son went? No. To their house. To McAllister's house. The son takes off.

01:05:36

They're not like, oh, shit, we better get out of here. They're like, let's keep fucking going inside.

01:05:40

Jesus. Trying to kick down the door. McAllister's wife, she's like, what's that noise?

01:05:45

Oh, lady. I know. Opens the door. And then she sees a ski masked man and she quickly shuts and bolts the door, though.

01:05:51

Like these two are fucking. What's that one? Home Alone No the family of superheroes Oh the Incredibles Yes They the Incredibles They are the Incredibles I thought you were shitting on the masked men

01:06:06

Oh, yeah. They're total dipshit? They kind of are. She deadbolts the door and calls the police.

01:06:14

But by the time the police arrived, the two attackers are finally fucking gone. The badass McAllister had ripped one of their ski masks off during the struggle.

01:06:21

Yes. And found DNA inside that ski mask. Okay. They run it through the fucking system and it gets a hit.

01:06:27

It matches a convicted felon named John Allen Bradshaw. Okay. So he's a 65-year-old man.

01:06:34

Can you imagine your dad being a home invasion robber? Not at all. Unless that home left all the lights on.

01:06:42

And Budweiser in the fridge. And he'd be like, turn that off. Turn that off. Oh, I'll have a cold one.

01:06:48

I'll clean the lint out of the dryer and I'm out of here. Pulls the mask up, drinks a beer, gets the hell out.

01:06:53

Turns all the lights off. Oh, my God. Adjust the thermostat. I told my dad yesterday that I kept my thermostat at 70.

01:07:00

I thought he was going to have a stroke at my dinner table. Was he going to be? He came last night?

01:07:05

Yeah. Is it too cold for him? No, he just doesn't let. He goes, your air conditioner ran all night.

01:07:11

I go, you can't hear me say something when I'm one foot away and the air conditioner kept you up all night.

01:07:18

You son of. Let me ask you this. Does he go for a nice jacuzzi? I bet he'd get in that jacuzzi

01:07:25

I've never even You know I've never turned that thing on I'm having a seizure I can't

01:07:33

George's eyes just rolled all the way back in her head right now You don't go in that thing every fucking night

01:07:38

I don't You're going to have to show me how to enjoy my life We're switching houses

01:07:41

Okay That's it We're going to Freaky Friday these houses Okay Where were we? It was dire

01:07:48

Okay So they run the DNA Yes, a 65 year old man A 65-year-old man, obviously really unusual for a burglar and especially a home invasion robber.

01:07:57

Yeah. His record, he does have a record, but it's not for burglary. He had spent time in federal prison on arson and federal money laundering charges.

01:08:05

Who is this guy? Who is he? Who is he? Bradshaw was nowhere to be found. They can't fucking find the student.

01:08:11

But once they find his identity, they're able to figure out who his partner in crime was.

01:08:15

see the wife of an associate of bradshaw's had filed a missing person's report a week after the

01:08:22

home invasion on on her husband named gary krueger okay let's talk about gary okay gary krueger was a

01:08:30

62 year old husband and father another oldie but goodie but baddie this is yeah really this is like

01:08:36

one of those um morgan freeman movies where he's like i'm retired but i'm gonna get into bank

01:08:41

Yeah, the bucket list of bank robbery. The bucket list in Las Vegas where we're going to like, come on, guys.

01:08:48

It's the bucket list for felons. Yeah. So this guy, Gary Kruger, is a former Marine and also a former Seattle police officer.

01:08:57

Uh-oh. Say what? So he's born and raised in the Seattle area. He was a Navy cadet in high school.

01:09:02

He joined the Marines, goes to Vietnam in 1967. he was part of a combined action group which is an elite team of marines and navy

01:09:11

corpsmen i promised myself i wouldn't say corpsman corpsman good i always do great job not saying

01:09:18

thank you who lived in remote villages they did humanitarian and psyops work oh whatever the fuck

01:09:24

that means that means you've seen some shit yeah you've been you've you've caused some shit you've

01:09:29

seen some shit that's right you come back not the same yeah he was in he was involved in the

01:09:34

Tet Offensive. He turned 20 on the sixth day of the Tet Offensive. Oh, 20. Babies. Babies. He

01:09:41

witnessed the death of many friends, including a handful from his hometown who he convinced to go

01:09:46

with him to Vietnam. He was like, come on, fellas, we're going to be heroes. And they all like most of

01:09:51

them died. I mean, but that that's the story of Vietnam is that almost all those kids were either

01:09:57

drafted against their will or they were like, we got to do what's right. Right. We got to help

01:10:02

people. Right. Oh, yeah. But he had convinced him to go with him. So I think he was a little

01:10:05

bit broken from that. Surely he was honorably discharged in January 1969 and joined the

01:10:10

Seattle Police Department. It seems that he had gone from being a normal teen when he left for

01:10:15

Vietnam into a man with a violent temper and PTSD when he returned. Of course. Right. Of course.

01:10:21

But, you know, they didn't all fucking kill people. So no, you're right. Not making excuses. But

01:10:26

the PTSD piece, I was actually just listening to this amazing book called The Body Keeps the

01:10:31

score, which I will find the author of after, because I don't want to totally derail you.

01:10:37

But it's a guy who does a lot of trauma work at the doctor, a psychiatrist, I believe,

01:10:43

and psychologist who does a lot of trauma work. And he started by working with, he's one of the first people to work through Veterans

01:10:51

Affairs in the VA office with soldiers who later they would realize had PTSD. But at the time, it was just people who were like, I'm trying to live my life.

01:11:01

but these nightmares. I have nightmares. I wake up screaming. I have like a violent temper and all this stuff.

01:11:07

And it was because everything they went through was unprocessed. And our culture at the time was like,

01:11:12

be a man and keep your mouth shut. Just drink. Yeah, they didn't acknowledge it at all.

01:11:16

It's horrifying. I want to read that for sure. Yeah, yeah. So he was praised for his kindness, courtesy, and professionalism

01:11:26

when he was a beat cop. But he then had a few violent and questionable run-ins. So in April 1970, he used a wrestling hold to restrain a, quote, violent and unmanageable vet who was threatening hospital staff.

01:11:39

And the man died as a result of the hold. Yeah. But they kind of swept it under the rug.

01:11:45

In 1974, a man claimed that Kruger and his partner badly beat him in a parking garage.

01:11:52

And Seattle PD paid this victim $3,000 as, like, compensation. To pay him off. Right.

01:11:57

in 1977, Kruger, then 20 was sitting in his patrol car when a prowling suspect named Roger Lee Stanley, who was 31,

01:12:05

allegedly lunged into the car through the driver's side window and tried to stab him.

01:12:09

With a large kitchen knife, Kruger was able to pull his revolver out and fatally shot this man four times.

01:12:16

Oh. Yeah. A jury deemed the killing justified, but after the shooting, Kruger's health, career, and marriage fucking collapsed.

01:12:24

Horrifying. That's right. I feel like juries almost always have that finding, though.

01:12:30

Right. Especially back then. Which isn't to say it's not true. We really don't know what any of it means.

01:12:36

Yeah. Yeah, because it's hard to actually, it's hard to not feel like there is a bias about those stories and how they come out.

01:12:42

Right. Yeah. In 1979, a PCP user tried to shoot Kruger with his own gun. He brutally beat the man, only stopping because other officers showed up.

01:12:52

He was removed from active duty and referred to a psychologist. And a friend actually took all his guns for safekeeping at the time as well.

01:12:59

That's good. Yeah. People were worried about him. Yeah. In early 1980, he left the police force on a disability retirement.

01:13:05

But it's rumored that he had become a liability to the force and had been forced to retire.

01:13:09

So he's like in his 30s and retired from the police force. Well, also, I feel like I understand the logic of it.

01:13:17

you're in the military and then a police job would would seem to you have the training for

01:13:22

and the experience to do that except for it's like doubling down on all that. Yes.

01:13:27

You have this terrible PTSD and suddenly it's like high stress situation all day.

01:13:31

Yeah, you're in combat still in your mind. Totally. Horrible. So he promptly took a bank robbery.

01:13:36

Oh, oh, okay. He was convicted multiple times and he was in and out of jail when his DNA was put into

01:13:43

the system. It matched the DNA found at the Mike Emmert murder all the way into in 2010.

01:13:50

Whoa. Once the ski mask was pulled off. So it wasn't until then that they fucking put it together.

01:13:55

That was him. I think that Mike Emmert's wife was really upset that they hadn't run the DNA sooner.

01:14:02

I'll tell you why. Because they're like, great. So we know who this Steven guy with a limp is.

01:14:07

Finally, it's not Steven Ray Morris. Right. Phew. Finally. And let's get him and put the puzzle pieces together.

01:14:15

But no, the plot thickens. See, in September 2011, about a year and a half after the attempted home invasion, Gary Kruger's body was found floating in Lake Washington.

01:14:28

Oh. Found nearby, nose down at the bottom of the lake, was a nine-foot aluminum skiff that had been stolen from the McAllister's neighborhood the night of the crime.

01:14:37

Is a skiff a boat? A skiff is a boat. A little boat? Apparently. Okay. So essentially, they're trying to make a getaway from the McAllister, Dr. McAllister fucking thing.

01:14:47

Got it. They steal a skiff boat and they get onto Lake Washington. Okay. And they crash and drown and he dies.

01:14:58

Whoa. And it isn't for like another year and a half that they find his body floating in there.

01:15:03

Oh, my God. Okay. You were right when you said it gets weirder. Yeah. Inside the boat was a duffel bag with plastic hand restraints, duct tape and extra ammo. So it looks as though Gary died in an accident trying to flee the home invasion.

01:15:18

Okay. But they're able to tie his DNA back to fucking 10 years ago, Mike Emmert's weird fucking bathtub murder in this house for sale.

01:15:27

Right. And they're like, let's put these fucking pieces like why this guy must be a hitman.

01:15:31

Right. They put the pieces together. They able to connect Kruger to at least two other murders and surmise that he had become a hitman.

01:15:37

Oh, my God. It's hard to say exactly what the murders motives all were. But real estate seems to be a through line in many of the cases.

01:15:46

After he'd retired from the police force for a really quick time, he'd become a real estate agent.

01:15:51

Mike Emmert was a realer. One of Kruger's other alleged victims was a real estate attorney.

01:15:55

His name's Jim Barry. OK. On February 7th, 1984, Jim Barry, who specialized in real estate and fraudulent bankruptcy cases, is found in his office by his wife at 3 a.m.

01:16:07

He shot five times and stabbed 11. This is 1984. His wallet, watch, and jewelry are missing, and detectives always believe that Barry was no random homicide victim and believe that the motive on this may have been revenge.

01:16:21

You see, Mr. Barry worked for the Rainier Bank at the time. And Gary Kruger had some outstanding loans at that bank.

01:16:30

They didn't put this together until much fucking later. There was some direct correspondence from Mr. Barry's office to the Kruger home that he needed to pay those bills.

01:16:38

So they think that maybe Gary was just pissed off about those loans. So he might have just been a hitman for fucking for himself.

01:16:47

Oh, my God. Well, I mean, yeah, if you If he could have been Doing it for other people and then it was just like, but I'll also

01:16:55

Take care of what I want to take care of Right, it seems like he had kind of no rules

01:16:59

At that point in his life So another one was That of Mario Vaccarino Who was the leader of both Seattle Local 8 and the International Hotel and Restaurant Employees Union so he was trying to unionize these people who didn want to fucking be unionized Around the time of his death he was super outspoken

01:17:18

He was leading protests on downtown Seattle hotels and food establishments, pressuring

01:17:23

owners to accept unions. And there were rumors that he was cooperating with a federal organized crime investigation.

01:17:30

Oh, wow. So on the morning of Friday, October 25th, 1985, Vaccarina's badly beaten body was found floating face down in his bathtub, his clothes and a bathrobe still on and water running.

01:17:42

His car was driven away from a crime scene and dumped in a public parking lot. And his wallet is prominently left for anyone to find at a local strip club called My Place.

01:17:52

Same pattern. Same fucking pattern. There's also Parmesan cheese sprinkled over the victim as if it were some sort of calling card for a mob hit or a rat.

01:18:04

So I think he was just trying to lead investigators elsewhere. Toward the mafia or some sort of.

01:18:10

Right. This is the union issue. When really, so the case is cold for the next 27 years, investigators thinking it was a mob hit.

01:18:19

But then it turned out that a longtime friend of Gary Kruger mentioned to him that Vaccarina was going to fire him.

01:18:26

They realized that there's a connection between Gary Kruger and a friend of his.

01:18:32

And so he maybe just killed the guy because his friend was going to get fired. There's a DNA hit in 2011 that proved the connection.

01:18:40

Oh, my God. Yeah. So he's like Charles Bronson gone awry. Yeah. And he's doing things for vengeance, but not with justice in mind, just for self-serving purposes.

01:18:53

Oh, my God. There's this other one. This is a case that True Crime Diary, where Michelle brought it up as she never finished investigating, but she said maybe it's connected to this murder.

01:19:04

And it is of Thomas C. Wales. He was an assistant United States attorney in Seattle and a gun control advocate.

01:19:12

He was the victim of an unsolved murder that has been characterized as an assassination.

01:19:16

On the evening of October 11, 2001, he is sitting at his computer in his Queen Anne Home office basement.

01:19:25

And there's a window there. A gunman enters the backyard, avoids the security lights.

01:19:29

And as he sits in his basement desk working near an open window, the murderer shot multiple times through the window, hitting whales in the neck.

01:19:38

Oh, my God. The killer left shell casings behind. The shots were heard by a neighbor who called 911.

01:19:41

And because he was a federal prosecutor and actually the only U.S. federal prosecutor in history to have become a victim of assassination, like this case is fucking huge.

01:19:52

Yeah. An airplane pilot that Wales had prosecuted was investigated and his home searched, but he wasn't charged.

01:20:02

The airline pilot. And he was also a fire. This guy was also a firearms enthusiast.

01:20:10

but agents believe that he resented. So Gary Kruger has no known links to Wales,

01:20:19

but there is a link to this other dude that he had done shit with Bradshaw. He had been prosecuted by the Seattle office of the department of justice.

01:20:28

And in 2001, Bradshaw, who was one of the home invasion, robber guys had pleaded guilty to federal money,

01:20:34

money laundering charges and was sentenced to eight years in prison. So it's possible it was another fucking vengeance.

01:20:40

murder. That's right. Wow. Wales specialized in federal fraud cases, which included money laundering.

01:20:46

So it's possible that he was connected to that. Other murders, another suspected murderer is a

01:20:52

victim is ex cop and gas station owner Terry Dolan, who in 1981 was shot in what appeared to

01:20:57

be a stage robbery at his gas station and Snohomish County mother of five Cheryl Gross,

01:21:03

who according to her husband, Tom Gross, ran off, you know, mother of fives like to do

01:21:08

And from the hotel they were staying at in 1991, the woman's husband was suspected of being involved but had an alibi for the night she vanished.

01:21:16

And it turns out that Gary Kruger was a good friend of the husband and was even the best man at her and Tom Gross' wedding.

01:21:24

Oh, no. But I'm not sure where that case stands today. So it's so hard to find motives.

01:21:29

And I think people are really upset that they can't find a motive for the Mike Emmert murder, the one in the very beginning of the story.

01:21:35

Right. Were they hits? Was Gary Kruger acting as some sort of dickhead vigilante? And as for the McAllister attack, the home invasion robbery attempt, at first investigators thought it was a botched, just a botched home invasion robbery. But they eventually learned that the real reason for the attack was that Dr. McAllister had refused to do Gary's wife's knee replacement surgery.

01:21:58

You gotta be fucking kidding me. So he was taking revenge and maybe he was trying to break into the house to attack the wife to like get back at, you know, the doctor somehow.

01:22:08

That's insane. He was trying really hard to get into the house. Like he was after the wife.

01:22:13

Wow. I know. I mean, that's not so. It's nuts. They also been investigating the murder of Mike Emmer Nothing has been found leaking him to Kruger to him any of his friends or family There no known reason why he brutally murdered this guy

01:22:31

But it sounds like it could be like he cut in front of him in line at the grocery store or smirked at him.

01:22:37

Right. Yeah. Maybe just something happened and we have no idea what it is. He cut him off in traffic.

01:22:41

Exactly. It sounds like that kind of thing where it's he never took care of his PTSD or any of the temper problems.

01:22:50

And probably instead of doing anything about them, let it grow and take over. So then suddenly you're just this just an exposed nerve that God forbid anybody come anywhere near you.

01:23:02

Yeah. You bring a cane with a fucking sword in it, dude. So Gary Kruger's body was recovered in Lake Washington, as I said.

01:23:10

So he's dead. John Bradshaw's body was not discovered. Oh. And some investigators believe he drowned with Kruger that night.

01:23:18

The McAllister family, the family of the home invasion robbery, were so fucking afraid that he was still alive that they hired sonar body recovery specialists to find Bradshaw's body in the lake.

01:23:29

Nothing was found. Oh, my God. And we still don't know the reason why Mike Emmert was targeted.

01:23:34

And that is the story of the hitman Gary Kruger. Wow. They're fucking that was like seven stories for Scasey murder.

01:23:45

I mean, it was a total Scorsese story or some shit. It was. So basically it because it also could have been that the guy that got away murdered Gary.

01:23:57

Oh, in the boat. Dumped him, made it seem like there they go. And then whatever.

01:24:03

I don't know. What if they had money? What if they had done something else? They were bankrupt.

01:24:07

The thing, too, is that the people who said that their skiff boat skiff was robbed saw only one set of footprints next to their house where the boat was robbed from.

01:24:17

Because Jesus was holding the other guy. Sorry, I had to. You had to. It was like, what choice do I have there for you?

01:24:23

At this point. So, so, sorry. That means one, one set of prints toward the boat.

01:24:28

Like one person stole the boat, which means the other one skedaddled or was dead.

01:24:33

Okay. he could have killed the guy who's still missing in a way that no one found.

01:24:40

He could have gone down the river. I don't know how bodies work. Do lakes connect to rivers?

01:24:50

Ocean. You know what? Let's not us try to solve this. Let's not us. But it could be

01:24:55

how sad for Mary Beth that it could be that someone, you know, there could be some real estate

01:25:00

agent who like was pissed off that this guy was fucking beating him in real estate what yes in the real estate world when they have

01:25:08

those contests yeah and then basically hired or did it or was like this motherfucker keeps beating

01:25:14

me and the guy was like taking it into his own hands oh my god it's so fucked up it's that's

01:25:19

nuts yeah so thanks uh thanks on self mysteries and thank you so much to true crime diary as always

01:25:26

yeah wow amazing that was great thanks do you know what your um fucking hooray this week is

01:25:32

going to be? Well, it was going to be that Lizzo concert. I can't remember how much I've told you

01:25:37

of this already. And Stephen, forgive. But I went to a gynecology appointment for the first time

01:25:44

in, I think, like six years. Karen. No, I know. Karen Marie. Karen Marie Kilgareff.

01:25:49

But I it's it goes under the it's the same as the other one where when I scared myself into

01:25:55

thinking I might have breast cancer. Don't deal with it. Don't avoid medical stuff. No,

01:25:59

Even if you're broke, and I understand that's, I don't even want to get into that territory

01:26:03

because God forbid, we all know it's so difficult. It's very difficult to afford insurance.

01:26:09

Nobody can get a job that will cover insurance because everyone's fucking scamming people.

01:26:14

We've all been broke, but there are affordable resources that you can find in your city.

01:26:19

There are clinics. There are free clinics. There are places that people have set up because of this exact situation.

01:26:24

Please make sure you go and get your stuff taken care of. I mean, I went to Planned Parenthood up until a couple of years ago because I just didn't have the money to afford.

01:26:33

I had insurance and I still couldn't afford the co-pay and shit. That's right. So, yeah.

01:26:38

It's just. God bless Planned Parenthood. Please donate to them. If you do have money and you're not on this side of the discussion.

01:26:45

Yeah. If you're on the other side sitting pretty, go ahead and go give $100 to Planned Parenthood.

01:26:49

Absolutely. But all that is to be said is I finally did it because I had to. and the doctor that I went to was a Canadian miracle. She was an older lady. She had her

01:27:06

hair up in a bun. She looked like a model for a cookie package and yet hip, cool, nonjudgmental,

01:27:14

not only, yeah, nonjudgmental, very much like what, what birth control do you need? What this

01:27:19

do you need? What that, where I was like, oh, this is the way it's supposed to be done. Like

01:27:22

no shame, no whatever. And at one point told me I had an absolutely perfect cervix.

01:27:29

Karen Thank you Now I wouldn have known that Steven I wouldn have known that if I hadn gone this is absolutely actionable My point is when I keep things in my head as this is a problem I don want to do it This

01:27:43

isn't a negative. And then I don't do that. When I finally am forced to, it always turns out that I

01:27:49

go, I should have done this five years ago. So please learn from my weird fear based decision

01:27:54

making, and just go do it and take care of it. Because you also don't realize I don't realize

01:27:58

how many amazing, talented people there are out there to help me. I don't believe that is true.

01:28:04

Yeah. And I have to keep proving it to myself over and over. I don't have to do it by myself.

01:28:09

I don't have to hold things by myself. And there are people who study and make it their life's work because they know how hard it is to be like,

01:28:18

hey, guess what? Not only are you glad you're here and you put your feet up in some stirrups, which is very uncomfortable,

01:28:23

but everything looks great. And you should like go walking around with the pride of a perfect.

01:28:29

You should use your cervix picture as your new profile because it's so fucking perfect.

01:28:34

I'm going to put it right up there and just be like, what's up? I'm on. I'm on Tinder.

01:28:39

It's disgusting. No, you're not. Stephen, here's why you're not allowed to sue us.

01:28:43

We've given you everything. Stephen, we give you everything. And then you get a little extra.

01:28:50

It's not our fault. I hope you don't cut any of that out. just because you're going to need it in the court case someday.

01:28:56

And I would never deprive you of that because I care about you. Because that's how much we've given you.

01:29:00

That's how much we care. We give you evidence against us. Well, I guess along those lines for me, too.

01:29:06

And I feel like I've said this. I feel like in the podcast history, I've said this many times.

01:29:11

And it's because I guess in the past year, oh, God, almost exactly a year ago, my therapist killed herself.

01:29:18

Yeah. So I found another new therapist. and this one I think it's our old therapist.

01:29:23

Yes. And I love him so much and he's really helping me. He told me to write a letter to her, which I don't do.

01:29:31

And like, I'm such a fucking, I don't do homework and therapy, but it's a good idea.

01:29:36

Yeah. So I got another new therapist and that's my fucking array. That's great. The third or fourth time, but.

01:29:42

Well, it's hard. I was thinking about that the other day. selfishly because my therapist is on a month vacation. And right when I was getting real,

01:29:51

I was kind of getting almost upset about it. Then I was just like, how about you hold on?

01:29:56

Because things are worse. There's worse things in the world. That's all I want is acknowledgement.

01:30:00

A little bit perspective. No, it's a horrible, I mean, just all around so much pain all around

01:30:08

so difficult. It's just so hard. But it's been almost exactly a year since it happened. So

01:30:15

God bless him. And I think about her all the time. But I'm so glad it's working. Thank you.

01:30:22

And thanks for letting me talk about it. Of course. It means a lot to me. Send us your fucking hoorays.

01:30:28

Comment on our Instagram of your fucking hooray. Like, what's the great thing in your life right now?

01:30:32

Yeah, it's good. It's good for us to hear other ones so then we can think of the ones that we need

01:30:36

to be saying. Yeah, because it's real hard sometimes to think of positive things.

01:30:39

Positive things and things that don't absolutely traumatize Stephen. That's true.

01:30:44

Give us non-actionable fucking phrase. Please. And also stay sexy. And don't get murdered.

01:30:51

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My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgi

193 - The Lowest Limit

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