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Bring the feeling of summer home. Discover the collection at Pura.com. Goodbye. Hello and welcome to a very special episode of My Favorite Murder.
00:01:53
The 200th episode. It's can't you feel it? Can you feel it in the air tonight? Can you feel them stacked up around us?
00:02:01
Can you feel all the homework we've done? Oh, you that's 400 book reports poorly researched, sometimes not accurate, passionately delivered.
00:02:13
I was absolutely doing that. Have I already covered this case today of the case I'm doing?
00:02:18
I know I have, but it's the it's such a great irony. The amount, and I know I've said this a thousand times, but the way in high school I spent all of my brain power figuring out how to get out of doing homework, how to get out of writing book reports, how I would stare at the cover of Silas Marner and go, I'll make up what this book is about and I'll trick an adult and they'll believe me.
00:02:46
And it worked. All just to lead to this point in our lives. Two college dropouts.
00:02:54
Hayden homework. And look, well, look at us now. Boom. Loving homework. You can do it, too.
00:03:02
If you can write a five page report and then admit you are wrong later. I think that's the key to podcasting.
00:03:08
It's about the humility of knowing everyone knows more and better than you. That's right.
00:03:14
And you're going to be wrong sometimes. And to 99% of the people, it's OK. It's OK.
00:03:20
And then to 60% of those people, it's fun. Because then they get to go, actually, this is the one I'm obsessed with.
00:03:29
And then we learn something. We do the talking, recorded talking. Then you have to write in old-fashioned style.
00:03:35
And then we have a group hug. And then we get to 200. Yeah. And that's when we announce the platform change, where all of this is we're now going to be doing improv.
00:03:47
Oh. You didn't know? Great. You didn't get my text. How are you doing improv? We've been doing this off script for so long.
00:03:57
I don't know how we're going to start improv-ing this. You've got to forget about memorizing these lines that you memorize every week.
00:04:03
Just don't worry about it anymore. Okay. Not an issue. They're gone. Can I just say this?
00:04:09
So we've just gotten back from our UK tour along. UK and Ireland tour. Sorry. UK, Ireland with their company retreat to Barcelona at the end.
00:04:19
A wonderful time all the way around. One of the highlights of that trip was that we actually got to fly Lufthansa Airlines.
00:04:31
And that is the fanciest airline, airplane, executive lounge I've ever seen in my life.
00:04:38
They had like a Christmas cookie set up. I've been telling everyone about it. You have?
00:04:43
Yes. Oh, my God. It was just like German Christmas cookie. like it looked like a puppet play was going to come out from behind it.
00:04:52
Yes, it was like a little shed that you'd come upon in an enchanted wood. And as I explained to my dad, not five different kinds of cookies,
00:05:02
literally like 30 different cookies and candies. I think what you loved about it is that the air hosts, what are they called?
00:05:11
Flight attendants? Is that the flight attendants hated us. Yes. They were these two lovely blonde German men who clearly were sick of our shit.
00:05:21
Yes. Even though we hadn't done any shit yet. No, but I think it's a cultural, which I kind of enjoy because it's actually very Irish as well.
00:05:32
They're the type of people that let you know, you're going to have to earn this.
00:05:35
Even though I am here to serve you, I'm also not really here to serve you. I feel like, though, I have this preconceived attitude as a Jew.
00:05:45
that I don't fucking need to earn this from you. I've done enough, friend. True.
00:05:52
But yeah, I think I have this automatic, like I don want those fucking Christmas cookies then I don fucking want this cheese Well I don want I don know No I think that a good way to kind of try to change the dynamic It an effective way
00:06:08
If you had the kind of weird upbringing I had, there's a challenge in, oh, you hate me? Now,
00:06:14
give me, let's mark it on the clock. Give me an hour. You're going to love me, which I have to say
00:06:20
by the end of that trip. And it was a very long one. By the time we got home, I had both of those
00:06:26
guys searching, almost breaking down my seat, looking for my one lost earbud. Did you find it
00:06:33
in your pocket later? They found it. And it wasn't in the chair. It would had slid into the
00:06:38
magazine holder next to the chair. Brilliant. They almost mechanically removed that chair from
00:06:45
the airplane. They were breaking down. I kept touching their backs going, honestly I'll just buy another set it's my fault on me oh that sounds so sweaty and do you know
00:06:54
that they they didn't find it while I was there he as we were driving home they sent me a picture
00:06:59
they found it and stuck it in an envelope this is how full see they don't need to be nice to your
00:07:04
face but they have done that if it was me listen you guys have a different history okay it's a
00:07:09
different setup but maybe because I was like I'll take the loss I'm not making you do this please
00:07:14
stopped doing it and they wouldn't stop looking. And then they were like, and we found it. Now
00:07:19
it's in an envelope. Now it's on the way to your house. Full fucking service, but also the most
00:07:25
beautiful executive lounge. Like I wanted to live there for the rest of my life. I'm definitely
00:07:29
getting the couches that were in that. You should go back. Just have a vacation in the executive
00:07:34
lounge. Just at the cookie shed. Right. I'll stand at the cookie fucking shed. Right. It's
00:07:39
their year round, even though it's Christmas, because it's Germany. Don't worry about it.
00:07:42
They do what they want. Can I tell you, can I change the subject? Please. The Confession Killer on Netflix.
00:07:49
Oh. Which we've done an ad for. I fucking took the time to watch it. Otis Tool? It's fucking good.
00:07:55
No, it's Henry Lucas. There's a little Otis in there. Oh, okay. But I really didn't know that whole, I just kind of never read anything or listened about
00:08:03
him because I was like, fuck this masked fucking serial killer. I don't care. Yes.
00:08:06
Then I watched this fucking documentary and there's twists and turns and it like fucking
00:08:11
And there's like a whole law enforcement thing that like maybe like, you know, turns on this
00:08:17
person and there's all this crazy shit going on and the victim's families having to deal
00:08:21
with him confessing to like over 300 murders. So then they're excited that they could get answers.
00:08:26
Right. And I don't want to say what happens, but like that he didn't do that. 300 murders.
00:08:31
It's a totally different story. And it's a really good fucking documentary. Awesome.
00:08:35
Because I have to say there's been a couple people, either people have brought up to us
00:08:40
or that we've heard about or whatever, where I'm like, I don't know, I might get my saturation
00:08:43
point in terms of just basically all of these are roughly the same. We just keep telling the same story over and over again, essentially.
00:08:52
This one isn't because he, I mean, it's astounding. And it's kind of like frustrating to watch because it's, he was given a chance to confess
00:09:03
to all these murders and the way it happens is really frustrating. And so it's a hard watch because you get really like worked up and upset.
00:09:11
So it is hard, but it's different in that it's kind of, it's just well done. Oh, good.
00:09:16
I'm going to watch it then. There's the other one about the Nazi that lives next door.
00:09:20
Oh, I started watching that too. Too upsetting? Too upsetting. Yeah. I don't know if it's him.
00:09:25
I never finished it. I don't know if I'm going to start. I think it is. There's so much.
00:09:31
You know what I've been watching since I got back? and maybe it was a little bit of like to wean me off of the entire Ireland,
00:09:38
UK experience. There's season three of toast of London is on and it's the Matt Berry's
00:09:45
British series. That character, Steven toast, who is, he's a, he's an actor, but he mostly does voiceover.
00:09:54
It's the funniest series. It's incredibly intentionally offensive. Yeah. So watch,
00:10:01
be careful who you recommend it to. I made the mistake of being like, dad, you're going to love this.
00:10:06
And then forgot that there's like so much like just gratuitous sex and insane. Oh, no.
00:10:12
Where I went, oh, what? I remember this is just being kind of funny in general. I forgot.
00:10:17
You recommended soft porn to your dad. Dad, you're going to think this is hilarious.
00:10:22
But anyway, it's I I watched that so quickly. Like the second I got back. I got it.
00:10:28
I needed I took I stayed home for like three days after we got back. It was so nice.
00:10:32
We were making plans. We were we were ours being being yes to parties. Oh, my God. We were doing things that in in the moment I knew we weren't going to do it.
00:10:40
But I was like, but I should cut to three days after we got back. And I was still on the couch like, is it 7 a.m. or 7 p.m.?
00:10:47
I have no idea. I don't want to go out after dark. And right now it turns dark at like five o'clock.
00:10:52
Yeah. So I don't I like I'm home till like three doing shit. And then I have a two hour window to leave the house, which I usually don't want to.
00:11:01
and then it's night and I don't want to. Yeah, that's right. It kind of all starts to shut down.
00:11:07
It's like we live on the North Pole now or something where it all gets a little low key.
00:11:12
And also my energy just slowly sapped all day long. So then it's like, yeah, I'm too old to like go out at night.
00:11:20
No, and the thing is I have a fireplace now too. Cozy. Damn it. Cozy. Cozy. Yeah.
00:11:27
My heater was broken. No, not to complain. Complain. But when I got back, my heater was broken and my house has like a tile floor.
00:11:36
It was so cold that I was wrapping the dogs up in blankets and myself up in blankets and we're all on the couch.
00:11:42
Like no one left the couch because it was so cold. When I was like sitting up watching TV, I was wrapping blankets around my God around myself like it was a Game of Thrones costume.
00:11:53
Meanwhile your fucking jacuzzi sitting out there being not used Meanwhile you all could have gone in together I should have forced the dogs into the jacuzzi No you like it Guys we have a soak We relax We talk about stuff
00:12:05
I know you're mad that I was gone. Can I do a quick merch plug? Please do. This one's really, this isn't just your regular merch plug.
00:12:12
We now have a bunch of new designs and a lot of Christmas and holiday items. Yes.
00:12:18
It's so exciting. Some great ones. We have the Stay Sexy and Do God's Mission holiday design.
00:12:24
and we have it on ornaments. Stay saved and do God's mission. Shit. Stay saved and do God's mission.
00:12:28
We have it on like sweaters and t-shirts and on ornaments. It's so fucking cute.
00:12:33
We have a Sprankers design. Love it. We have a New Elvis design. We have a Yeti Truthers design,
00:12:38
which is the cutest thing I've ever seen. All you Yeti Truthers out there, you finally have a t-shirt
00:12:42
that speaks for you. We should have had to be double-sided. On the other side, it says,
00:12:47
I don't believe in Yetis. And you can pick which one you want to wear. You can like turn it inside out.
00:12:52
Nice. Next time. And we have a you're in a cult. And then we're also pairing with this really incredible murderino named Abby Paul Huss, who is this incredible artist.
00:13:05
And she's doing some wrapping paper for us. Yeah. And she's doing like this really cool December like gift calendar for us.
00:13:13
She's so fucking talented. And we love working with her. Yeah. So that's exciting.
00:13:16
There's ornaments. There's clothing. There's mugs. So check it out at myfavoritemurder.com in the store.
00:13:21
So many gifts. So many gifts. Oh, and you can buy people now a fan cult membership as a gift.
00:13:28
That's a good gift. Yeah. And affordable. We have a black and white My Favorite Murder logo pin, and all of the proceeds of that are going to rain.
00:13:35
Yeah, that's awesome. So you can actually get someone something and then feel good about the fact that you're actually giving.
00:13:40
Right. Do it twice. And their leather jacket looks cool. Yeah. It's just a rad pin.
00:13:44
Bonus. Yeah. Nice one. Nice plug for the holidays. Does it feel good to get back into plugging?
00:13:51
I've never gotten out of it. you're 24 7 that's why you stay home so much hey vince have you seen these great new shoes
00:13:59
check it out you're gonna love them they're called crocs georgia won't stop plugging shit for me i don't know what to do about it
00:14:10
that everything i think so okay great okay you know if we think of it we'll say it in the middle
00:14:14
of the show isn't that the kind of structure we've already always adhered to it's been 200
00:14:20
episodes. If you don't know how the structure is yet, then keep listening. Keep listening because we'd love to know if there is a structure or if there's something
00:14:28
we should be looking into structure. Yeah. And we love that you're here. We're here
00:14:32
too. Yeah. God, it's almost been four years, actually. It's crazy. Fuck. 200 seems like hardly any. It doesn't seem
00:14:40
like a lot. For what it feels like we've experienced. Yes. You know what I mean? To me, this feels like 2000.
00:14:47
I was going to suggest that we both go back and listen to episode one. But then I'm like, why would I do that to us?
00:14:52
No, no, no. Why would I ever do that? It will just change everything. I was going to suggest that we restart the Facebook page and just really dig into some opinion.
00:15:05
Walk away from it all. Opinions. Well, you know what? It's been just a true explosion.
00:15:11
It's been a whirlwind. And it's so exciting, like having just been in Ireland, the UK and parts unknown.
00:15:18
It's been so awesome to meet people face to face who are like, I'm as I'm as excited as you are.
00:15:26
Or I feel like I've been there with you. I'm proud of you. I'm proud of you that we get sometimes from the mom daughter combos.
00:15:33
Yeah. Is it kills me. So great. It gets me good. And it's so nice. it's like it's it's what I love about touring aside from all the clapping um is really that
00:15:44
kind of face-to-face like hey like I've done this with you and yeah and all the stories
00:15:49
it's just the coolest those stories it makes it tangible and people saying like I wasn't sure
00:15:55
now I'm like now I'm changed my major to criminal justice that kind of stuff where we're first of
00:16:02
all we say all the time but we get credit for shit we should not get credit for but just the
00:16:07
idea that we're like the part of these people's lives. And in 200 episodes in this way.
00:16:14
It's like in a way that you can't understand sitting across the table from me right now
00:16:17
with Stephen in the corner. With Stephen eavesdropping the whole time. Yeah. Giggling into his face.
00:16:23
I'm sorry. Giggling into his hand. You just don't get it. If you could see Stephen giggle into his own face, it's the giggliest.
00:16:31
I think that technically we've been doing this podcast to make Stephen laugh in the
00:16:34
corner this whole time when we learn that other people listen to it. That's the most surprising
00:16:39
part. It's more than Steven giggling into his face. It's so much more than that. And you and
00:16:44
we get to learn every time we we do leave the house or leave the state or the country, then we
00:16:50
get to learn what that means. So it's really nice to learn it because that's kind of our perspective
00:16:55
is, I would say, the weirdest. Yeah, it's the most myopic of all. Oops. Okay. While the world
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00:18:05
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00:18:57
Goodbye. Okay. Do you want to start your thing? I go first. Okay. Right? Yes. Oh, shit.
00:19:06
Wait, this is out of order. I was like, that's not how this starts. Wait a second.
00:19:12
It does not start in the... Oh, shit. Steven, I do need you to print some stuff.
00:19:15
Sorry. My printer ran out of paper. Oh, you did? I just need page one through five.
00:19:21
All right. I'm actually a little nervous about this one. Okay. Because it's a big one.
00:19:25
And a lot of people know a lot of shit about this. Yeah. And a lot of people have a lot of theories.
00:19:30
Okay. And I don't want to get anything wrong. JFK? Oh, God. Oh, no. Are you about to enter into some Jack the Ripper territory?
00:19:41
No. Okay. I'm about to do The Disappearance of Johnny Gosch. Wow. Right? Okay. Yes, absolutely.
00:19:51
And this one has levels. Oh, man. This one has fucking twists and turns. Or does it?
00:19:57
It depends on who you ask. Any way you slice the story, it's so incredibly heartbreaking.
00:20:03
Yeah. Obviously. But this is just such a painful way that something like this could go.
00:20:10
Totally. I mean, it's very similar to the Jacob Wetterling case, which we covered a couple episodes ago.
00:20:14
But it's got different twists and turns just because of the nature of the parents, the law enforcement, the public.
00:20:21
But it's similar. So I got info from a ton of Wikipedia info. Des Moines Register, JohnnyGosh.com, which I think is run by his mom. A New York Times article, an article on Owlcation. Owl. O-W-L. Cation.
00:20:37
The animal? Yeah. Okay. By Annette Sharp and a couple articles in Medium by the True Crime Times and also the documentary Who Took Johnny.
00:20:47
Yeah. That's what it's called. The Netflix documentary? Yeah, the Netflix documentary Who Took Johnny, which is so good and heartbreaking, and I highly recommend it.
00:20:55
So I'm going to give you a little taste of it. Here we go. And please feel free.
00:21:00
I know you know the story really well, too. So please feel free. Definitely not really well.
00:21:03
This is one of those ones that because the family pain is so on the surface and so a part of it, it's hard to read.
00:21:14
It's not. It feels like one of those ones. I definitely prefer true crime stories that are like, it happened long ago, it was one and done, or whatever, like, the group thing happened and ended.
00:21:26
Obviously, not for everybody. But like, I don't know, there's something about the mother continually trying.
00:21:33
And I want to see that, you know, and feel and experience what people went through.
00:21:38
And it helps me understand the story more. Yeah, completely. Oh, and the one thing I would say that changes because of recent things that that makes it probably much more satisfying and it's bringing it up to a different level, as you as you point out, is the fucking Epstein story.
00:21:56
Yes. That breaks that suddenly. Totally. I'll let you get into it. Like 100 percent.
00:22:00
Let's talk about that. It's that thing of like what used to be a conspiracy theory.
00:22:04
Right. Merely 10 years ago, merely five years ago is suddenly now. Oh, no, this is absolutely possible and real.
00:22:09
And who knows? 100 percent. We'll get into it. Okay. On Sunday, September 5th, 1982, in the city of Des Moines, Iowa, which we've been to.
00:22:18
It's a very charming city. Yes, we love that place. It was West Des Moines was then an upper middle class suburb of about 22,000 people.
00:22:26
12-year-old Johnny Gosch leaves home before dawn for his regular paper route, which a lot of kids did in the 80s and 90s.
00:22:32
It's a totally normal thing. The thought of my kid going out in the dark before dawn would scare the shit out of me, but it was a totally normal thing back then.
00:22:41
And people didn't know that predators were lurking. And in fact, a lot of people didn't even know the word pedophile.
00:22:46
They didn't know what that was. Yeah. So. Such a different time. I know. So he goes out from his paper route.
00:22:53
He's in seventh grade. And usually he's accompanied by his dad. But that morning, for some reason, he didn't wake his dad up.
00:23:00
He wanted to do it alone. It's heartbreaking. But instead, he takes his red wagon and the family's miniature dachshund Gretchen and heads out to pick up his newspapers.
00:23:10
at the newspaper meeting place. Right. I'm sure there's a name for it. It's where they like rubber band the papers
00:23:15
and they collect all their papers and head off. Like the warehouse. Yeah. Where?
00:23:20
The warehouse. And that's the last time any corroborated sighting of Johnny Gosch occurs.
00:23:26
So cut around 6 a.m., John and Noreen Gosch, Johnny's parents, they begin getting phone calls.
00:23:32
And those phone calls are from the people who were supposed to receive newspapers
00:23:35
on Johnny's route who hadn't got them. And they were like, grr, grr, grr, curmiginy and shit Sunday morning.
00:23:40
you know yeah um johnny had never missed a drop off before so of course his parents are worried
00:23:45
his dad goes out to search the neighborhood just two blocks from their home he comes upon johnny's
00:23:50
you know wagon that he had been pulling full of undelivered newspapers fucking gretchen true to the fucking end is sitting there waiting
00:24:00
What did she see? Ugh. What did she see? What did she see? I know. That poor baby.
00:24:05
Ugh. By all accounts, Johnny wasn't the type of kid to run off at all. He would never have left his dog and his delivery behind.
00:24:13
He was saving money to purchase a dirt bike, so there's no reason why he would have just
00:24:16
fucking left. It's not a thing. Yes, it's not a thing. Especially at 5.45 in the morning.
00:24:21
It's not like he saw some friends and ran off to hang out with them. Right. You know?
00:24:24
Yeah. The Gaushes immediately contacted the West Des Moines Police Department and report Johnny's
00:24:29
disappearance, of course, like any fucking parent would. Up until this point in history,
00:24:34
children's disappearances weren't treated any differently than adults' disappearances,
00:24:38
which is fucking crazy. So crazy. There isn't even a national database of missing children.
00:24:43
So while the police had the ability to record and track information about stolen cars,
00:24:49
stolen guns, even stolen horses, with the FBI National Crime Computer, there's no database
00:24:55
on stolen children. Isn't that the weirdest, like the blind spots that when they are discovered,
00:25:01
it's like, if you told that to anybody, I think at that point in time, they'd go,
00:25:06
how is that possible? Right. Because you assume these things are taken care of, or you assume
00:25:10
everyone's gone over things point by point and figured this stuff out. Right. That's exactly
00:25:15
right. Insane. But I think that also has to do with like, you're in charge of your own kids,
00:25:20
everybody keep to themselves. You know, if you slap your kids around at home, it's none of my
00:25:24
business everyone you know no seatbelts smoke in the car fucking kids were second-class citizens
00:25:29
like crazy until very recently absolutely yeah so the police and it's part of the reason that
00:25:35
they're i feel like you'll see but they're not is because of this case so it's it's an important one
00:25:40
yeah so the police are just 10 blocks away but it takes 45 fucking minutes for them to get to
00:25:45
the gosh's house and once there they say there's no evidence of a crime so um they suspect johnny's
00:25:51
just a runaway as they always did. So the Goshes also aren't legally allowed to file a missing
00:25:56
person's report for 72 fucking hours. Really? Yeah. I thought it was 48. It's just dependent
00:26:03
on the state. I think 72 hours of your, your 12 year old being fucking missing. So the cops are
00:26:10
like, goodbye, good luck. Fuck off. But Noreen Gosch is a fucking force. This woman is like the,
00:26:17
backbone of the story. She is like having none of this bullshit. She immediately begins phoning
00:26:22
friends and family and organizes a search party. The whole community seems to rally around the
00:26:27
goshes because this kind of thing doesn't fucking happen in Des Moines. It felt like a small town,
00:26:33
a small community, and this kind of thing didn't happen. So residents are shocked that something
00:26:37
like this would happen in their community. Meanwhile, local law enforcement was shockingly
00:26:43
indifferent in Johnny's disappearance. In fact, according to Noreen, police chief Orville Cooney
00:26:48
showed up to the park where neighbors and friends were congregating in order to do their own
00:26:53
search. There's about 20 people getting together planning their search for Johnny.
00:26:57
The fucking police chief shows up. Allegedly, some say he was drunk. And he stood on a picnic
00:27:03
table and threw a megaphone, yells to the searchers that they should go home because, quote, Johnny, because
00:27:09
Johnny was, quote, just a damn runaway. What the hell? But I mean, it doesn't make sense because it's one thing to say that that's your theory or that's how the police stance.
00:27:20
It's another thing to fight the people who are trying to take action. Exactly. Well, this is what fuels the cover up stories that this is what fuels the cover up conspiracies that come after.
00:27:31
OK, there's so much more to this. I can't overstate how little police and FBI as well gave a shit about Johnny going missing.
00:27:38
she would not stop trying to get them to do something and they fucking wouldn't they said
00:27:44
they didn't have a crime and she'd be like quote i don't have a son that's like the fucking proof
00:27:50
yeah they'd openly mock and threaten her when she tried to get help from them and they tell her you
00:27:55
know all these crazy things and just completely discount her and she was having none of it
00:27:59
so in fact this fucking orville cooney guy allegedly began spreading the story that johnny
00:28:05
was not the gosh's real child, but was actually adopted. And that's why he ran away is to find his real parents.
00:28:12
So fucking Noreen had to produce Johnny's birth certificate and publish it in the newspaper
00:28:16
to even prove like she's trying to find her son. And this person's working like actively working against her.
00:28:22
Well, slandering. Exactly. That's crazy. Yeah. So so allegedly Orville had a reputation as the town drunk.
00:28:29
He later left the department in disgrace. Of course, there's some witnesses and people in the neighborhood who come forward with
00:28:34
information about that morning. First of all, at the newspaper depot place, a father and his kid
00:28:39
remember a man in a car asking Johnny for directions. Fucking red flag. Don't ask children
00:28:46
where to go. And then when the father approaches, the man quickly drives off. And according to the
00:28:53
kid, Johnny said that the man had creeped him out and like took off to get away. So later,
00:28:58
while on his route, a neighbor reports that he watched from his bedroom window as Johnny was
00:29:02
talking to a stocky man in a blue two-toned Ford Fairmont with Nebraska plates. Remember Nebraska.
00:29:10
Okay. The Goshes distribute over 10,000 posters and flyers with Johnny's picture on it. They sell
00:29:15
these chocolate bars that have his picture on it in order to raise money to hire a private detective.
00:29:23
Noreen contacts local and national media to cover the story. It's seen nationwide. She goes on all
00:29:28
these programs trying to get help to find her missing son. Ultimately, authorities aren't able
00:29:33
to uncover any evidence as to Johnny's whereabouts or any motive to his fucking kidnapping, and they
00:29:39
find no suspects in connection with the case. Then two years after Johnny disappears on August 12,
00:29:45
1984, another Des Moines area paperboy disappears. 13 year old Eugene Martin left his home at
00:29:53
approximately 5 a to deliver Des Moines Register on the south side of Des Moines just seven miles from where Johnny had disappeared Eugene normally delivered papers with his older stepbrother but on this day he went alone too and disappeared
00:30:06
Witnesses say they saw Martin talking to a clean-cut white male in his 30s, sometime between 5 and 5.45 a.m.
00:30:12
Some stated the two appeared to be engaged in a friendly father-son sort of conversation.
00:30:17
No evidence of what happened to Eugene was ever uncovered. In September 1984, a dairy farm in Des Moines, Iowa, begins printing photographs of both Johnny and Eugene on their milk cartons.
00:30:29
And the idea of local independent dairies, this is their idea, which I find so fascinating.
00:30:34
It's awesome. They put photos of missing children in their area on milk cartons so that customers who purchase the milk would be encouraged to look for the missing children or keep an eye out.
00:30:43
This half starts in the early 80s. There had been no system in the United States for tracking missing children nationwide.
00:30:50
So by 1985, 700 of the 1,600 independent dairies in the United States had adopted the practice.
00:30:56
It's unbelievable. It's so smart. I would love to know who was the first. Well, if you listen to 99% Invisible's episode called Milk Carton Kids, they tell you the whole fucking story.
00:31:07
It's great. Awesome. I'm literally going to write that down. It's so good. And it became this part of our childhood, right?
00:31:13
Milk Carton Kids. You'd go in the morning and sit down at the kitchen table to eat cereal,
00:31:17
And there'd be the face of some kid who fucking looked like someone you went to school with right there.
00:31:22
And they were gone. They were gone. Terrifying. And we all thought there was like mass fucking murderers everywhere.
00:31:28
And we were going to get kidnapped any minute. Well, and that idea that it was like they finally were taking it into their hands of this is an item that everyone looks at every morning.
00:31:38
Why not use it for good? Totally. And get awareness. And yes, it devastated. No, I'm not.
00:31:46
No, I mean, it shouldn't have been there. Because it was like on top of Adam Walsh.
00:31:52
Yeah. Well, I was going to say like the constant threat of nuclear war, which I remember just constantly obsessing on as a kid.
00:31:59
When the milk carton kid thing started, it was just like, oh, yeah, like things are not great.
00:32:05
You're just it's a ticking time bomb until things go to fucking hell. Yeah. I mean, yeah, it's an incredible campaign.
00:32:12
But it is just as as the same thing as kids having no supervision. Well, and it's the I think it's the discomfort and it's what people don't like about true crime, which is the reality of it.
00:32:24
It's yeah, you have to sit there and go no matter what age you are and go. Somebody took this boy and no one found him and no one knows what happened.
00:32:31
And we have to do something that's uncomfortable. And up until that point, I'm sure people would be like, that's you can't do that.
00:32:38
You can't put those pictures on. And it's like, no, somebody has to do something because there's no one else is going to do it.
00:32:43
Yeah. I just love that. Overall, the campaigns didn't have much success in bringing missing children home in the end and was criticized for overstating the risk of child abductions.
00:32:53
Oh, really? Yeah. Which brought about a type of moral panic called stranger danger.
00:32:59
Was it moral panic? Remember, it totally was. It was like us versus them. Don't talk to strangers.
00:33:06
Those people are going to hurt you. When really this fucking fear should be in your own circle and in your own life.
00:33:11
True, true. Yeah, that's right. So the phrase is intended to encapsulate the danger that is associated with adults who children don't know.
00:33:22
And to reinforce the public fears of strangers as potential pedophiles, despite sexual abuse of children being more likely to occur in families, unfortunately.
00:33:31
So it kind of, oh, the 80s. The 80s. Well, it was like someone do something. Yeah. So it's not going to be the best plan. Yeah. But it definitely raised awareness and it and it did happen. Yeah. You know, 100 percent. It did happen. And that's a really good point of this is that because they didn't even know what pedophiles were at the time. Johnny's parents, in their mind, he had been held. He was being held for ransom. And that's why he was kidnapped. So in the first, you know, interviews that they do, they're pleading to the captors to just let them know what they want and they'll give it like when is the ransom coming in? They didn't understand.
00:34:06
This whole, you know, pedophile, you know, stranger danger abduction. It just wasn't even on their fucking radars.
00:34:15
Yeah. In fact, a third Des Moines kid, 13 year old Mark James Warren Allen also disappeared from Des Moines in 1986.
00:34:23
On March 29th, he told his mother he planned to walk to a friend's house down the street and then just fucking vanished.
00:34:28
So basically every two years this was happening in Des Moines. Yeah. So Noreen was infuriated by the indifference of local law enforcement.
00:34:36
when her son went missing. They fucking did nothing. And she becomes increasingly vocal
00:34:40
about the inadequacy of law enforcement's investigation of missing children. She establishes the Johnny Gosch Foundation in 1982, through which she visited schools
00:34:50
and speaks at seminars about sexual predators and warning kids. She lobbies for the Johnny
00:34:55
Gosch Bill, a state legislation which would mandate immediate police response to reports
00:35:00
of missing children, as it fucking should be and is today. The bill became law in Iowa
00:35:06
in 1984. And Noreen alongside John Walsh, who of course became an advocate for abducted children
00:35:13
when his six-year-old son, Adam Walsh, who we all, if you're from that time, you fucking remember,
00:35:18
had been kidnapped from a mall in Hollywood, Florida in 1981. So Noreen with John Walsh
00:35:25
testified before the US Department of Justice. And in turn, they fucking ended up providing $10
00:35:30
million to establish the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children. and that was noreen gosh she was one of the parents who fucking helped get that um passed
00:35:40
amazing isn't that incredible yeah and meanwhile people are calling her fucking crazy because she
00:35:45
won't let it go and she doesn't think her son is dead and she refuses to fucking give up the fight
00:35:48
they're calling her like nuts and stuff and she's just like fuck this shit it's like clearly shouldn't
00:35:53
go crazy if she was able to then eventually get a law passed exactly like it you know there one thing to be completely lose your mind over the laws Right But clearly she was not crazy Yeah And people were like insulting her for not crying on TV
00:36:06
And, you know, when she was playing and she was like, if my son is watching, I want him to see that his mom is taking control and like doing shit about it.
00:36:13
Yeah. Not just crying, you know. Right. Which is amazing. Noreen alleges that throughout her fight to find out what happened to her son and her battle with law enforcement to give a shit.
00:36:23
she began receiving death threats, warning her to back off and to stop making waves.
00:36:28
And she later says that what she didn't realize at the time was that she was, quote,
00:36:32
knocking on the back door of what became the Franklin Credit Union investigation.
00:36:38
I wish I didn't have to include this in there. It's like, this is, it's, okay, let's just get through this.
00:36:45
Okay. Okay. And I want your opinion on all this too. In 1988, authorities looked into allegations that prominent citizens of Nebraska, as well as high level U.S. politicians, were involved in a child sex ring.
00:36:59
Alleged abuse victims claimed that children in foster care were being sexually abused by extreme higher ups, including the CIA, the military and politicians in Washington, D.C., and being covered up by those underneath them.
00:37:12
So they alleged that there was this big child sex ring where they take underprivileged kids out of foster care or, you know, they would groom them and then take them all over the country to, you know, perform at these parties and to be auctioned off.
00:37:25
It's all horrendous. It's horrendous. Yeah. The claims primarily centered around Lawrence King Jr., a.k.a. Larry King, which gets really confusing when you're listening to other podcasts about it, who ran the now defunct Franklin Community Federal Credit Union in Omaha, Nebraska.
00:37:38
and it was alleged that the ring was a cult of devil worshipers involved in the mutilation, sacrifice, and cannibalism of numerous children.
00:37:47
That was a quote. Then in 1980... Disinformation. Yeah. Right. Anarchy. Then in 1989, 21-year-old Paul A. Benocki told his attorney, John DeCamp,
00:37:58
that he had been abducted into the sex ring as a teenager and been forced to participate in Johnny Gosch's kidnapping.
00:38:04
He was there and he participated in it. Wow. And that Johnny had been subsequently brought into the sex ring.
00:38:10
And Noreen later met with him and said he told her things that only her son would have known.
00:38:16
Benocki accused Republican Party activist and businessman Larry King Jr. of running an underage sex ring and victimizing him since an early age.
00:38:25
In 1990, a county grand jury found the allegations to be, quote, a carefully crafted hoax.
00:38:31
And Paul Benocki and others were indicted on state perjury charges. So this fucking is an insane story that actually last podcast on the left.
00:38:39
There's like three episodes about this called the satanic government to cover because there's so much information.
00:38:45
Yeah. Okay. So then I put as my header, according to Noreen, and this is part of the documentary, according to Noreen, in March of 1997, 15 years after her son had disappeared, she's awakened around 2.30 a.m. by a knock at her apartment door.
00:39:02
and waiting outside is her son, Johnny Gosh. This kills me. I know, me too. He's now 27 years old.
00:39:10
He's accompanied by an unidentified man who just kind of accompanies him and keeps quiet.
00:39:15
Noreen invites Johnny in. She said she had immediately recognized him as her son.
00:39:19
He showed her his birthmark on his chest to prove it. She was just like, this is him.
00:39:24
And she says that he stayed for about an hour and a half and basically confirmed her fears that he'd been kidnapped
00:39:29
and forced into a pedophile sex ring and was now out but feared for his life so he had gone into hiding and just wanted to come see her
00:39:37
oh i know um yeah so this can be all debated online but i i just i think either this poor
00:39:45
woman i think it was either a hoax that was played on her because there had been others
00:39:49
or you know just a fantasy that she really wanted to believe yeah just totally understandable
00:39:55
totally or it fucking happened i don't know i mean the idea that someone would pull a hoax
00:40:01
like that it's like you're the ultimate psychopath absolutely you actually want to go face to face
00:40:06
and fuck with a person's emotions like that it's unbelievable but yeah there are sociopaths out
00:40:14
there that would fucking get off on that shit entirely i mean how many how many um kidnapping
00:40:18
stories have we done where there's always the call of the person who has nothing to do with it
00:40:22
just trying to get money i mean and you know in the beginning they gave out their phone number this
00:40:26
has been happening to them for the fucking past 15 years there's there had been a ransom of 10
00:40:31
thousand dollars where she got a you know went to the spot there was a letter addressed to her she
00:40:35
gave it over to police and they were like that's nothing she had been blown off by all these you
00:40:39
know people for fucking years and all these people calling and you know hoaxes and yeah basically
00:40:45
it's because there was no actual official arm of the law helping her having to do it all herself
00:40:51
kind of opened her up to all that totally it's pandemonium and to have to constantly process and
00:40:56
deal with those traumas over and over again on top of the original. I mean, horrible.
00:41:02
No, it's horrible. I kind of I did some searching online. And I, of course, looked at our,
00:41:08
our My Favorite Murder Gmail. And I saw a couple people mentioned this connection
00:41:13
to kind of it's kind of what happens to Jacob Wetterling. He was kidnapped, sexually assaulted
00:41:20
and murdered by a single suspect, which I think in this case makes way more sense, you know.
00:41:26
It just so happens that in the early 80s, there's a child killer operating out of Nebraska.
00:41:31
I remember someone noticed those Nebraska plates. So on September 18th, 1983, almost exactly a year before Johnny went missing, 13-year-old
00:41:40
Danny Joe Eberle went out on his early morning paper route in the small town of Bellevue,
00:41:45
Nebraska. Usually Danny was accompanied by his older brother. On this day, he wasn't.
00:41:51
At about 8 a calls from residents start coming in that they hadn received their papers I mean can you fucking it just chilling It like it a direct MO Yeah it exactly the same It a person It like the story that I did somewhere in the UK
00:42:06
I don't think it was Ireland. So then UK, where was the guy that just waited when young women
00:42:11
were walking home from like village dances? Yeah. Remember that? Yeah. He killed like a bunch of
00:42:16
people in a row. It's just like, oh, somebody gets their idea. The one way it works. And then
00:42:20
to just keep doing it over and over. That's right. And so outside of a home where Danny
00:42:26
delivered his newspapers, his parents found his bicycle abandoned and his undelivered newspapers.
00:42:32
There was no sign of a struggle or kidnapping, but he was just he had just vanished. Days later,
00:42:38
on September 21st, 1983, searchers found the bound, gagged and partially clothed body of Danny Joe
00:42:44
Everly, just four miles away from his abandoned bicycle. So this was the difference. But like in
00:42:50
the Joseph Wetterling case, he buried him, you know, so who the fuck knows. Almost three months
00:42:57
later on January 11th, 1984, this fucking badass, astute preschool teacher named Barbara Weaver.
00:43:04
She helps apprehend the murderer when she's parking her school, her car in the parking lot
00:43:10
at school that morning early. She sees a fucking creepy car drive by. She sees the face of the dude
00:43:15
and she's like, that looks like the police sketch that a witness had made. Yes, girl. He's driving
00:43:20
by her school. She writes down his license plate and sees her looking and he gets out of his car
00:43:25
and he threatens her with a fucking knife. But she gets out of there and fucking had his license
00:43:31
plate number, which is amazing. He drives off. She called the cops, obviously. Less than two
00:43:36
hours later, police arrest John Jobert in his barracks at Ofut Air Force Base. I'm an Air Force
00:43:43
space 20 year old john jobert fit the fbi profile robert wrestler's profile to a fucking t you know
00:43:51
including the fact that he volunteered in his assistant scout master in order to be closer to
00:43:56
children it's so creepy he eventually confesses to danny's murder as well as the murders of a
00:44:02
local boy named christopher walden who was 12 who fucking disappeared and died in similar
00:44:08
circumstances. And then investigators are able to link him to the stabbing death
00:44:12
of 11-year-old Ricky Stenson in Oakdale, Maine. And as you and I know very well,
00:44:18
Nebraska and Iowa share a fucking state line. That's right. They're right next to each other.
00:44:24
And Bellevue, Nebraska, where these murders occurred, is less than a three-hour drive from West Des Moines, Iowa,
00:44:30
where Johnny Gosch just appeared. And clearly the guy's doing it in different areas.
00:44:36
And he's in the Air Force So he's probably being stationed at different places. He has to drive and shit.
00:44:41
Right. Yeah. At 12 before a.m. on July 17th, 1996, he's put to death in Nebraska State Penitentiary's electric chair.
00:44:50
And though John Jobert's only other known victims bodies were found not far from where they were abducted and therefore authorities were able to link them.
00:44:59
There were bite marks and fucking similar mutilations and all kinds of awful stuff.
00:45:03
there's never been any sign of johnny so they can't really you know link it link it and it's
00:45:08
just speculation but it's not i mean the problem is there's no probably no shortage of fucking
00:45:14
pedophiles and murderers in that area at the time sure you know and he was in prison when the second
00:45:21
kid um eugene went missing so he couldn't have done that one so maybe it was a copycat or maybe
00:45:27
there's the totally different fucking psychopath roaming around. As for Noreen, she and John senior divorced in 1983 and she still lives in Des Moines where
00:45:38
she teaches yoga classes. I know. And continues her mission to help families of missing children.
00:45:45
Back when Johnny disappeared in 1982, when a child disappeared in the U S authorities responded without much care
00:45:51
and or caution. The Gosch case and Noreen's plight to find her son was one, along with several other in that period,
00:45:59
that experts say transformed and improved how law enforcement handled missing children
00:46:04
and helped increase the likelihood of missing children being found. It's been 37 years since Johnny Gosch went missing.
00:46:12
Despite her grief and a system that turned her into the enemy, Noreen Gosch said, quote,
00:46:17
You have a choice. Are you going to rise up and do something? Or are you going to sit there and feel bad?
00:46:22
And she also said, you show me somebody who isn't a little controversial when it comes to making positive changes.
00:46:27
And I'll show you someone who's never done a damn thing in their life. Oh, Noreen.
00:46:32
And that's the story of the disappearance of Johnny Gosch. Do you need a shower?
00:46:38
I mean, I'm glad that that the milk carton thing happened and it was an overcorrection all the way in the other direction.
00:46:44
It needed to be. It needed. Basically, what needed to happen is this matters. Children matter.
00:46:49
we can't wait 72 hours we can't wait 48 hours we can't wait any hours well you think about all the kids
00:46:56
all the crazy shit that happened because of these milk cartons that were over correcting
00:47:00
but then you think about the police chief in this town who saw that and so when a kid went missing
00:47:05
he actually axed and otherwise he wouldn't have because he was alerted to the fact that this happened
00:47:10
because the dairy farmers are going to fucking rise up and be like we'll do it if you won't do it
00:47:14
that's right we'll do it we'll do it with Noreen that's right it's beautiful that's right
00:47:19
Fuck your gluten allergy. Fuck your lactose intolerance. We're taking care of shit for real.
00:47:26
I mean, that's what I love about it is people just going. We don't care what the actual setup is.
00:47:31
We're going to do something. And we're not going to listen to, you know, to authority figures, even if.
00:47:37
To authority figures who have too much to lose by doing it wrong. Therefore, they don't want to do anything at all.
00:47:42
It's like slowly watching the process. We get to look back over all these years because what that's been.
00:47:48
37. God, it's so long I know It's like the changes that have happened Like you going Robert Ressler's
00:47:54
He fit the The profile The profile Almost gave me chills It's like, thank God, now we're talking about him doing profiles.
00:48:02
Now we're in the mind hunter part of the story where people are actually going, this is something we have to track and pay attention to and talk about.
00:48:09
Well, I think that now local police are overcompensating. When a kid goes missing, it's better to have overreacted than it is to be completely wrong.
00:48:17
Let's hope they're down fishing by the river by themselves. That's the dream, but don't fucking rely on it.
00:48:24
And I don't think anyone really does anymore. I don't think so. And I don't think the public would let people do that anymore.
00:48:29
I hope not. I hope not. Yeah. Good one. Thank you. While the world watches the stars at the FIFA World Cup this summer,
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Goodbye. Oh, can I tell you something really quickly on the podcast? Yes. You just said thank God.
00:50:59
I just said thank God for Vince Averill. Do you know that your dad and my husband text each other?
00:51:06
Are you aware? Vince, we're watching TV and Vince looks down at his phone and goes,
00:51:12
and I go, what? He goes, oh, Jim just sent me something about Budweiser. A funny joke.
00:51:17
He's like, anytime there's anything in the news about Budweiser, we text it to each other.
00:51:22
My dad is. You shouldn't have never given Vince his phone number. Over the moon.
00:51:25
Because my dad sends me like political cartoons of Trump doing something like flushing the
00:51:30
toilet 15 times or whatever. The latest thing. And it just stresses me out. And I never know what to say where I'm like, ha ha ha.
00:51:37
The world is burning. This is the worst. This is horrible. So when I think I said that he told me to tell Vince something and I'm like, you should
00:51:45
just text him yourself because I know you guys have each other's phone. Don't be coy.
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And now they're just doing it. It's lovely. I think maybe Jim kind of reminds him of his
00:51:57
dad who passed away. They're the old school types. Vince doesn't drink Budweiser, but he pretends to for your dad.
00:52:05
He pretends to drink Budweiser for my dad because he knows how much that matters. That's right. And I told you
00:52:11
when you and I first met and first started doing this show and we were started dating when we first started dating Vince no we went to that party at Pat Walsh's house and
00:52:20
Vince and I talked and I later told you he did a thing that was so my dad where he as he was telling
00:52:26
me a story his with the hand he was holding his beer he pushed my shoulder for like effect right
00:52:33
to be like hey and then I was like where am I am I home with all my uncles like it was the
00:52:40
craziest thing. So it wouldn't surprise me if Vince is like, oh, that's how my dad used to be. Because I feel
00:52:46
like there's just style similarities. Fucking man. That's it. Yeah. And then remind me someday to tell you that I had a dream about
00:52:56
your and my wedding. Talk about it later. Guess what? I hadn't done my homework.
00:53:02
There was all this homework about it. You didn't write your vows. God damn it. You came fucking ready.
00:53:08
And I was just like, can I have another day. Can we do this wedding on a Sunday, please? Our wedding was very romantic. That's for episode
00:53:20
300. That's right. We'll have a live wedding. Stream that live wedding, girls. Okay. I'm
00:53:27
going to do leftover homework from when we were on the great island of Ireland. Homework
00:53:33
is homework, man. Right? It got done. I just didn't want to do it because I was like, oh,
00:53:37
I don't know. And then I found one that was I could put more jokes into. Great. Because that's my priority. That's a good one.
00:53:44
But now let's make Steven laugh. No. But this is this is one of those ones where it's like it's a small town
00:53:52
like a like a family massacre Ooh Yeah That awful Yes And so I thought I tell you all about it It the Malahide massacre You know this one Is it the barn one It a family
00:54:06
But it happened in a barn? No. Then I don't know it. Okay. So this, the majority of information,
00:54:14
so the Irish Times is the, I believe, Dublin newspaper. Please check that, Stephen. I'm almost positive.
00:54:21
But they have a series called, or they did at least from when this articles from called Lost Leads, which highlights lesser known stories that were featured in the
00:54:29
Times from as far back as 1859. Wow. So if you pull up one of these stories, then the side column
00:54:35
becomes all the other one. How about these? How about these? And how about you never go to sleep
00:54:39
ever again? So good. Yeah, I mean, like, it's so it's the best idea. So this article was written,
00:54:46
the one about this massacre was written by a writer named Dean Ruxton. Another source that I
00:54:52
used was a website called old yellow walls.org. And then of course, the classic murder pedia.
00:54:59
So this starts on Wednesday, March 31st, 1926. A man named Henry McCabe, a gardener arrives for
00:55:06
work at the La Mancha house in Malahide, which is just outside Dublin. It's 8am. And he's just
00:55:15
there for work. So this house is impressive. It's a three story Georgian home. It's on about 30
00:55:20
acres of land in this wealthy seaside neighborhood. And the house is owned by the McDonald family.
00:55:29
It's four adult siblings that live together. So it's Annie, who's 56, Joseph, who's 55,
00:55:35
Peter, who's 51, and Alice, who's 47. Can you imagine still living with your sister?
00:55:39
I mean, the fighting, the volume alone. Double passive aggression. There's four of them?
00:55:47
There's four of them. And they're all retired. Okay. So they bought the house in 1918 after retiring from their successful grocery, drapery, and general store in County Galway, which is where my grandpa's from.
00:56:05
Represent Galway. So, yeah, I guess they made a ton of money. And then they were like, let's go buy this rad house.
00:56:11
Maybe they'd like to party together. Maybe. I mean, from the Irish people that I know, they're very clicky and clanny.
00:56:19
Like they would have been hanging out anyways, so they might as well live together.
00:56:21
Yeah, entirely. Okay. That's how my family is. That sounds kind of fun for like a weekend.
00:56:26
Yeah. Well, it's fun. And then, you know, throw some beer and whiskey in there and maybe a fiddle and a story.
00:56:32
Everyone's got their party piece. There's going to be fighting on the front lawn.
00:56:37
That's a full weekend. You don't need money for other extracurricular activities.
00:56:42
It all happens in the house. Okay. So they've all lived there, although they'd recently decided to put the house up for sale.
00:56:50
So there had been ads about the house running in the local paper for a few days before.
00:56:55
So when Henry gets to the house on the morning of March 31st, he notices he thinks something's off.
00:57:02
He notices there's smoke coming out of both chimneys. But there's no other signs that anybody's awake.
00:57:09
No other lights are on or anything. And then when he gets closer, he sees smoke is billowing out of a bathroom window.
00:57:15
So then he's like, oh, shit. He runs to the back door of the house and finds that it's been broken open.
00:57:22
So he goes inside as far as he can before the flames keep him from going in any further.
00:57:29
And he calls for the McDonald's, but nobody responds. So he runs into town to get the fire brigade.
00:57:36
And on his way, he passes a neighbor, Mrs. Riley. and he tells her about the fire.
00:57:41
She then tells a police officer and a local neighbor. I guess the neighbor is the only kind of neighbor you can be.
00:57:52
So those two guys run to the house before the firefighters get there to see what's going on.
00:57:59
And they break into a basement room. So I'm sure they went around looking in the windows.
00:58:04
And the basement room was where one of the family employees, they had two employees that lived at the house.
00:58:12
And one was this man, James Clark, who was 41 years old, and his bedroom was down in the basement.
00:58:17
So they break open the window. They see that he's partially dressed on his bed. They drag him out of the house to save him from the flames.
00:58:26
But once they get him outside on the lawn, they find that he is already dead, but not from the fire.
00:58:32
He has defensive wounds all over his forearms and a deep gash on the left side of his skull like he's been hit with a sharp, narrow metal object.
00:58:43
Perhaps a blow poke. Oh, what's up the staircase? Yeah, right. So then the fire brigade arrives around 850 a.m., put out the fire.
00:58:54
But at this point, the roof is collapsed. The interior is almost completely demolished.
00:58:58
so then aside from James Clark firefighters pull out five more bodies from the house
00:59:07
it's Annie, Joseph, Peter, Alice their servant Mary McGowan who's 50 years old Annie and Alice were found in the same room upstairs
00:59:17
Peter is found in his room all of their bodies are charred beyond recognition and then Peter's body
00:59:26
was down in a different room and it was laying there. It had been stripped bare and then laying
00:59:33
on top of him was a wool singlet and a pair of pants but just laying on top of his body like
00:59:41
someone else put it there. Weird. And then nearby a fire poker with brain matter on it was
00:59:49
next to him. Okay, so on the day of the event... Why did they cover him with clothes?
00:59:53
we see So on the day of the event March 31st the firefighters inspect the house to determine the cause of the fire And they see that it had started in several spots throughout the house
01:00:07
So the theory was somebody walked around and pouring a spirit of liquor or something flammable around to light it in several places.
01:00:17
then the medical examiner finds trace amounts of arsenic in some of the bodies not enough to kill
01:00:24
but enough to weaken them and so basically the theory is the killer would have had a physical
01:00:31
advantage because he wouldn't been able to take four adults or four six adults at one time
01:00:36
and because the defensive wounds that were found on James Clark's body and the fact that only some of the bodies were burned but all of them were dead
01:00:46
the police conclude that everyone was murdered first and then the fire was set intentionally
01:00:50
to burn the evidence um also when the house is searched afterwards there's no valuables found
01:00:57
inside yeah and these are rich people basically god how terrifying like to live in that area and
01:01:03
just that horrible thing happened just a like oh it's a house fire oh no it's actually yeah it's
01:01:09
a murder with a house fire on top and it's not just one person alone which would be easy to
01:01:13
fucking, you know, kill. It's like six fucking adults. Six adults. That's terrifying. All around a house.
01:01:19
Yeah. Okay, so as authorities search for solid leads, of course, the rumor mill kicks
01:01:25
into high gear. So, some neighbors are gossiping that the McDonald's siblings had been fighting, and maybe those
01:01:31
fights led to the murder. Others talk about how strange it is for four adult siblings in their late
01:01:37
40s, early 50s, to all be unmarried and living together. I thought maybe it was just for the time it was normal.
01:01:45
I mean, maybe it could have been, but I think in this situation where suddenly everyone's dead, people are just like, okay, what could have happened?
01:01:52
And then that opens to, it starts to imply that maybe the murders were born out of, there was sexual abuse, there was
01:02:00
incest, there was mental illness, there were things going on in the house, like what are the
01:02:04
family secrets, essentially. But close friends of the McDonald's vehemently deny any of these stories. They say they're incapable of murder and that none of that other
01:02:15
stuff was happening. But either way, of course, local newspapers go crazy on this story and
01:02:23
hundreds of people travel from all over just to come and take a look at the house. Because of
01:02:29
course, it's like, this is a six person murder house. And we don't have TV. No, we don't have TV. And this is what human beings do. Right. It just is. Okay. So on April 2nd, 1926, the police bring in Henry McCabe for questioning since it's, you know, obviously suspicious. He's like a number one suspect because he's the gardener and he's the only person that was a regular at that house that survived. Yeah. Was not attacked in any way. So he gives his account of what happened in the days leading up to the fire.
01:03:04
The night before the fire He claims that he sat at the kitchen table With Joe reading the paper
01:03:10
Until about 8pm And then he left to attend a wake And then he leaves the wake The next morning at 7.45am
01:03:19
Holy shit Because that's how the Irish do wakes Is that some passing out at 5.30am
01:03:25
And then waking up at 7pm On the couch You get to the wake You have eight beers You sing some songs
01:03:31
You cry. You put your arms around people. You do this. You do that. Yeah. You wake up. You have some toast.
01:03:40
He basically stopped home to freshen up around 745 the next morning. And then he goes to work at the McDonald's where he finds the house fire.
01:03:49
He tells police that he'd never really seen the family fight per se. But in the weeks prior to the fire, they did seem quieter than usual.
01:03:58
He claims he hadn't seen Annie or Peter in a few days, but that Joe told him that they were resting in bed because they were sick.
01:04:06
And according to Henry, both he and the I think it was either two or three cooks that had worked in the house over the years that Henry had worked there.
01:04:15
They all said and noticed that Joe almost never spoke to anyone in the family. He mostly, if he was going to speak to anybody, it would be to Peter.
01:04:23
But even then, it wasn't warm or, you know, like brother to brother. It was polite and businesslike.
01:04:31
And Henry also claims that the neighborhood kids called Alice the madwoman of La Mancha, which seems totally like something kids would say.
01:04:39
You know how kids love talking about La Mancha. You know, they love to make literary references.
01:04:45
because she'd sometimes run out of the house looking disheveled and acting hysterical.
01:04:52
Oh, God, that's scary. And then he also says that Peter was known to run in circles in the yard
01:04:57
and throw himself down on the ground and laugh like a schoolboy. Booze, baby. That's booze.
01:05:06
Both of them could be. But basically, Henry, he tells police when the McDonald's first moved in.
01:05:13
That's two L's, not a D. Got it. When they first moved in, that he had been asked by the siblings to dig a hole to bury a safe under their porch.
01:05:24
And then three years later, he was asked to dig the safe back up so they could return it to the store.
01:05:30
He's he's telling the police this story when they're just asking, like, what happened at the house?
01:05:35
Right. And suddenly he's talking about the safe. and at one point he searched and they find the keys to that safe in his pocket
01:05:45
while he's being questioned by police but other than that, Henry McCabe is a husband and father of nine
01:05:53
so as far as anyone knows he an upstanding citizen so after taking Henry statement the police deduced that maybe Peter McDonald quote must have lost his reason during the night and having slain the whole household
01:06:08
set the place on fire and succumbed himself to heart failure or was suffocated by the smoke or else poisoned himself.
01:06:16
So rock solid theory of what happened. I'm on board. He killed everybody and then kind of died afterward.
01:06:25
In some way. In some strange way. But when the time of death is revealed, all of the victims had been dead since 5 p.m. Monday evening.
01:06:40
So Wednesday morning is when Henry found the house on fire. So the coroner's like, they've been dead for a full day, if not more.
01:06:49
OK, but it's also 1922, 26, 26. I mean, can the coroner be like, oh, to my deductions, we have a pocket watch.
01:06:58
It's definitely guesstimation. And we do know that some of the bodies were charred beyond.
01:07:04
Right. But the the the problem with that is it directly conflicts with Henry's story that he was sitting at the table reading the paper with Joe the night before.
01:07:12
Got it. So then they're like, OK, well, even if it's not the full like two days before, something's something's off.
01:07:20
OK, yeah, for sure. Then the police discover that the pants Henry McCabe were wearing when he was first detained actually belonged to Peter McDonald.
01:07:29
Oh, the body that was stripped bare. Oh, why would he do that and then wear it to work?
01:07:36
Well, why would he? So this is found after a guard, a police officer, Gardie, reports that Henry had asked him to have his wife lie for him and say that Peter had sent him the pants like that he had been given the pants long ago.
01:07:57
Yeah. And that he had already owned the pants. But he basically tried to get a cop to tell the wife to tell that lie.
01:08:04
That's not going to. And the cop's like, lie. Got you. I'm going to go ahead and tell my boss about this real quick.
01:08:10
So the police then began to theorize that if Henry was the one that was responsible for these murders, that at some point during the murder of all these people, he could have somehow soiled his own pants.
01:08:24
and then basically gotten rid of those and taken Peter's pants off of him and put them on because they were really nice gray, like newer pants.
01:08:38
Slacks. Maybe a woolen slack. Slack. Real high, though, because it's 1926, so they come right up to the nipple.
01:08:45
So many pleats. and basically so he got rid of his pants like let them burn in the fire
01:08:52
and that's why Peter's body was found with just the singlet and another pair of pants on top
01:08:58
they're going to burn anyway so you're not even going to know I don't have to dress them and it'll look like oh these were his
01:09:02
they're here so essentially once they kind of put all of these things together the police
01:09:10
get Henry to sign a statement of confession so Henry McCabe is formally charged with murder in April 20 in April of 1926.
01:09:20
So even though he signed the statement of confession, he then pleads not guilty and maintains his innocence.
01:09:28
So the judge is worried that the statement was coerced. His trial begins in November of 1926.
01:09:36
Prosecutors claim that Henry is the only logical suspect. He has access to the La Mancha house, but none of their explanations for Henry's motive are that good.
01:09:48
So they search Henry's house and they do find clothing with bloodstains on it, but he's a gardener.
01:09:54
So it could just easily be his because he's out working with big shears and getting cut in brambles and bushes and stuff.
01:10:03
Maybe. And he has nine kids who are constantly falling and doing stupid shit. And doing all kinds of crazy shit.
01:10:09
Teeth falling out randomly, lip biting. Yeah. They don't find any valuables in Henry's house.
01:10:16
So like thinking that all the things that were missing from the La Mancha house might be found there.
01:10:21
They don't find any. They claim that Henry was scared that he was going to lose his job if the McDonald's sold the house.
01:10:31
But that didn't make sense because he had actually worked there for the family before the McDonald's bought it.
01:10:37
So he had just remained the gardener. And he's going to double lose his job if the fucking occupants die.
01:10:42
Right. So the defense relies on the neighborhood rumors about the McDonald's to build their case.
01:10:51
They say it's entirely possible that either Peter or Alice McDonald could have gone mad with everybody implying that they already might have been a little crazy here or there.
01:11:01
That they had just snapped and killed everyone in the house before killing themselves.
01:11:05
As for the arsenic, the prosecutors note that there's arsenic in one of the gardening chemicals that Henry used in the garden.
01:11:13
Defense comes back and is like, he does not extract arsenic from these gardening chemicals.
01:11:20
And he didn't live in the house, so he didn't have a way to slip arsenic into their food, even if he did know how to.
01:11:26
And also the defense says poison is a woman's weapon. Come on now. It's kind of true.
01:11:34
And so they say it's more likely Alice would have poisoned anybody if it was anybody that did it.
01:11:40
So it's a six day trial. And the judge, Justice O'Byrne, tells the jury, if you are satisfied that McCabe is the only person who could have committed this crime, you must find him guilty.
01:11:52
But if you have any reasonable doubt, you must give him the benefit of it. So the jury goes and deliberates for 50 minutes.
01:12:00
And comes back finding him guilty of all of the murders. Oh. And he's sentenced to death by hanging.
01:12:06
I don't think he did it. Okay. So, on December 9th, 1926, he's taken to the gallows.
01:12:12
When asked if he has any last words, he says, All I have to say is, God forgive them.
01:12:18
I am the victim of bribery and perjury. So, Henry maintains his innocence all the way until the end.
01:12:25
but after his hanging some damning facts are revealed about his life before. Come on man
01:12:34
I was fucking rooting for you. No I know look a lot of people were including that judge
01:12:38
who seemed like this all could be just like they want to get this taken care of. Sure.
01:12:45
So these are all things that they couldn't talk about during the court case but in his youth
01:12:50
he moved to England where he had several run-ins with the law and And they they weren't defined particularly, but he did go to he did serve prison time for them.
01:13:01
Well, who am I? I mean, and then when he was released, he moved to Birmingham and there he started dating a woman, but he's soon arrested for attempting to murder her.
01:13:12
Don't do that. He serves another 15 month sentence for attempted murder and then eventually moves to just outside Dublin.
01:13:20
OK, so none of this information can be used during the trial because of the code of criminal procedure that disallows the court from using prior charges to argue their case.
01:13:30
So basically, some people are kind of like, well, then this this is almost like if people were worried or it was up in the air.
01:13:37
Yeah, whatever. Well, at least we have this these prior convictions that maybe maybe support that.
01:13:43
Sure. But some maybe some people aren't sleeping that well. Maybe some people still aren't sure.
01:13:48
And then seven years later, in 1933, a local boy named Denning, last name is Denning.
01:13:57
He's digging in the garden of a house on Church Road in Malahide when he digs up two silver watches.
01:14:04
One is inscribed to James Clark, who was the man who lived in the basement. And the other is inscribed to J.
01:14:13
Nick D. it's said that when Henry was alive he was the gardener who planted the shrubbery at the house
01:14:20
on Church Road in that particular garden so he's like I gotta do something with this shit
01:14:25
and fucking bury the loot he buried that loot all over probably not just in this house
01:14:32
and because you know that thing where people are guilty and they start talking because they think
01:14:36
they're smarter than everybody so he tells the story of burying the safe which basically
01:14:41
Or tries to like mislead them and like have them go in a different direction by over talking.
01:14:45
Yes. But I think people don't understand that in your subconscious, the reason you think of the things you're talking about, it's like you're giving yourself away.
01:14:53
Yeah. And the idea that he's talking about burying the safe, which is like clearly he knew there were valuables.
01:14:59
They had they had money. They had stuff hidden. But also it's like burying stuff.
01:15:04
Like it's a whole area that he wanted to talk about. Yeah. And anyway, so it's not it's not hard, the hardest of evidence.
01:15:14
But like, it would be interesting to know if they found any more stuff buried in yards around.
01:15:19
Let's grab a fucking metal detector and head there. The detector is season three.
01:15:25
And that's the harrowing story of the Malahide massacre. Oh, fuck. I was going for them being the family, either one of them murdering everyone else or them.
01:15:35
Not them killing themselves because I don think the servants would have done it as well if it was like the four siblings maybe But I definitely thought it was the guy who had the clothes laid on top of him Yeah because he clearly he was the last Right
01:15:47
And maybe he like wanted some modesty. So he covered himself up and then right in the end.
01:15:52
But now I don't think so anymore. And it's interesting because back then they just had to kind of there was so little science of any kind.
01:16:02
Plus, everything's burnt. Yeah. So they just have to go through and like really piece stuff together.
01:16:06
Yeah. And you can absolutely see, and we know that it happens all the time. It's like, oh, the gardener, the guy that reported it.
01:16:13
Yeah. Pull in whoever sent him to the gallows. I was like, bullshit. Yeah. End this whole thing.
01:16:19
But like the idea that he had the safe, the keys to the safe in his pocket. Yes.
01:16:24
He was wearing one of the dead men's pants. Yes. Like there were so many things that were just like, dude.
01:16:30
He had a ton of his little kid's teeth bled all over his other pants that they found.
01:16:33
Why don't you just wash those pants? When your kids do keep falling out of their fucking head.
01:16:38
Why don't you keep backup pants in the gardener shed where they should be? That's a good lesson to learn.
01:16:45
Always keep backup pants. I mean, you know that I live by it as my great fear in the world is something happens to my pants.
01:16:52
And I have to borrow pants from somebody whose pants are too small. It's like a nightmare I live with.
01:16:56
I didn't know that. Yeah. Keep those sweats in the backseat. I feel like 200 episodes in and we're still learning stuff about each other.
01:17:03
God, it's so fresh. Good job. That was great. That was awesome. Thank you. I mean, it really was a bit of a...
01:17:10
No, that was so fun. I mean, it was not fun. This is not fun, everyone. This is not.
01:17:14
This is a... But it's interesting. Also, because when you're in a place like that where it's so...
01:17:22
Everything has that small village, small town feel where the influence of what people say
01:17:28
and the... It's the same thing of Noreen Gosch being like, oh, she's crazy. where once you get the
01:17:34
public opinion stirred up of like, oh, you know those people in the house, they all killed each other
01:17:40
where it's just like, oh, well, yeah they're not around to defend themselves, if they were private people
01:17:46
then you can kind of say anything after the fact crazy that's it we decided our fucking hooray is going to be
01:17:58
you guys You said it like Janet. All of you out there in the ether listening. This life has turned out really fucking insane and unexpected.
01:18:16
And not at all what I had in mind four years ago for the rest of my existence. And it's completely changed that. And I am so not just, you know, not just like material things and how crazy this is. And like fucking our book being on Audible's top fucking audio books in 2019.
01:18:40
2019, like not just shit like that, but like, the fact that there are people who really care about us
01:18:45
who we don't know, you know, are out there and how lucky we are that we help people go to therapy
01:18:52
and get help and get on medication and deal with their mental health. We feel very fucking grateful.
01:18:58
And I really can't believe that we get a chance to do this with our lives. And I am so I'm honored.
01:19:05
Nice. And so 200 episodes in is pretty fucking incredible. It's pretty amazing. I think we should also take this time to thank Stephen Ray Morris, who has been here since, right? You came in in 16?
01:19:17
17. It was Stephen you came in such we needed you so much And you really we made you do so much stuff for us And you really kept us going in those early times where we we didn understand what was happening
01:19:36
We couldn't wrap our arms around what was happening. And it was so great to have you.
01:19:39
It's been so great to have you. Thank you. And what the kids are, say is ride or die.
01:19:46
Nice. That's right. Nice one. I love it. You know, what's very satisfying to me is that I feel like the things that we did early on, which were almost like us being like, oh, Brene Brown, we're learning how to be more vulnerable.
01:20:01
We're learning how to be honest about ourselves. We're learning how to say what we think is the most shameful thing about ourselves and then share that so that maybe the shame will dissipate.
01:20:11
And instead of that just being like a weird exercise between you and I, like uncomfortable Thanksgiving or on our podcast just as a test or whatever, it really was the, I don't know, the fertilizer that grew this beautiful garden where, you know, I spent a large portion of my life believing that I could never let anybody in to that vulnerable side or that that was some kind of that that would be a huge mistake.
01:20:40
or weakness or the worst. And instead, it's been this ridiculously unbelievable lesson in
01:20:49
how that is the way to go. Like that that really is this kind of thing where we all go,
01:20:55
hey, guess what? Everyone's mentally ill. They really are. And the people who can't admit it the
01:21:01
most usually have the biggest secrets and the biggest sicknesses. And we don't have to be
01:21:06
be cowed by anyone. We don't have to be made to feel bad about ourselves by anyone. We get to
01:21:13
choose how we feel and we get to choose how we deal with how we feel. And so, yes, we, you know,
01:21:19
there's a lot of talk about like, we're scared of this and we're scared of that. And God forbid,
01:21:24
you go to the forest and all those things that we've done that's been over the top and reactionary
01:21:29
in us telling horrible stories and then trying to think of solutions to those stories. But really,
01:21:35
at the end of the day, underneath all that, what I think I've been learning at least is the opposite,
01:21:41
which is opening up, being honest, being direct, trying to be like, oh, here's the thing I really
01:21:50
fear. And it is it is it a real fear? Or is it just this thing that actually holds me back? And
01:21:56
like, and maybe if I just throw it out there, people, at least I can get a little relief. And
01:22:03
then maybe somebody else gets a little relief. I think the word of the day is that it's led to
01:22:08
so much connection. And that is such a beautiful thing. And I'm I'm in awe of it. And we've you and
01:22:16
I have felt it. Yeah. And I think everyone else has felt it with each other. Yeah. And if that's
01:22:21
our fucking legacy, then I then hell yeah, a fucking man, those that's what we need in life
01:22:28
is more connection. And even if it's scary, and you have to be vulnerable about it, and you have
01:22:31
to like show your ugly bits and that I have BO right now and like all that fucked up shit.
01:22:37
All that fucked up shit. There's someone else on the other side going, yeah, I have that too.
01:22:42
Yeah. Let's be friends. Let's be friends. And also let's not feel so bad because I am a product of the horrible Hollywood system
01:22:49
that, you know, that I beat my head against for 20 years until this fucking podcast.
01:22:58
And all of a sudden it's like, boom, it all blows open. You have to be vulnerable Otherwise it won work It won work And it audio So like it it doesn like you know it it a whole different it a whole different um
01:23:14
discipline, I think. And it's a, maybe even a harder discipline because I've gone on a billion
01:23:19
diets, but this thing is a whole, it's a whole different approach. And so thank you for giving
01:23:27
a shit for listening and participating and being with us. And thank you to the people who who get us and know our intentions, because we do absolutely
01:23:40
fuck up so much and talk about things that then we only find out afterwards, you know,
01:23:46
offend people or or aren't the right way to think about things or whatever. There's so many people that listen to this podcast and come back in going, I know you
01:23:54
don't know this and I know you would want to know this. And here's this piece of information.
01:23:59
It's people giving us the benefit of the doubt, which we are honored to have and we will be careful with and take care of.
01:24:05
Yeah, try our best. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, for sure. Be vulnerable to not being perfect and to change.
01:24:12
Yeah. And you guys, thank you so much. 200 fucking episodes. Man, so crazy. Thank you for this life changing thing you've given us.
01:24:20
Yeah. And thank you for this success is because of all you guys participating and wanting to.
01:24:28
And, you know, here's to at least 50 more. Let's say 25. Can we say 25? Let's promise 25 and let's aim for 50.
01:24:41
Great. Come on. Great. At least until next summer. Yeah, let's do it. OK, well, then stay sexy.
01:24:46
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