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Welcome. Welcome to, the whole time, My Favorite Murder. The podcast. In tandem.
00:01:56
In tandem. Exactly at the same time. Exactly. On exactly at the same time media.
00:02:02
That's right. That's Karen Kilgara. That's Georgia Hartstark. Hi, how are you? Coming at you from our individual homes.
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Mm-hmm. As per. Mm-hmm. We're not protesting anything. No. We're staying home. You know why?
00:02:18
Because it's normal. It's what you're supposed to do and you don't want to get a virus.
00:02:26
and give it to other people. The highly deadly virus. No one knows how it works.
00:02:31
Stay home. Yeah. And when you scream into the law enforcement faces, it turns out it doesn't help at all.
00:02:37
It hinders, some would say. Strong start. We've done it again. There we go. I mean, let's just make this
00:02:44
a fucking political podcast at this point. How do we talk about anything else? Oh, man.
00:02:52
Well, it's kind of being shoved down our throats all the time. That's why we do this podcast so you can escape.
00:02:58
This is the escape hatch from that reality into the one we've decided to create.
00:03:03
And you should absolutely be wary of the fact that the escape hatch of reality to make you feel better is a murder podcast.
00:03:11
Yes, please know. Please read the post-it note that we stuck on the escape hatch before we went through it first.
00:03:18
And it says, beware all ye who enter here type of thing. It's two women talking.
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It's a murder podcast. What's a podcast? It's one big, God forbid. So get ready.
00:03:33
It's one big, God forbid. That's the best. How are you doing with your stability and house and living in it?
00:03:42
Well, I mean, all that's fine. I think yesterday was a breaking point for a lot of people.
00:03:49
I was getting lots of texts like, hey, I'm freaking out. So tonight, actually, technically, although in our reality, it's two nights away.
00:03:59
It's a full moon. And I think that has an effect on people, especially when you are indoors and you need to be indoors.
00:04:06
Yeah. So just I don't know. I would say keep conscious of details like that that might be affecting you.
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What does it do? It turns you into a werewolf? You know, like every time there's a full moon, like crime in normal times, crime spikes like crazy.
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People get a little nutso. It's kind of like Mercury in retrograde. I think so. Only the moon has much more of a true direct scientific, you know, we're made of water.
00:04:35
The moon affects the tides and our periods and all those things. Push, pull. All that.
00:04:42
It's all happening. You might be extra pushed, extra pulled this week. Stay aware.
00:04:47
Um, so yeah, I think there was a little bit of that kind of, I had a couple, you know, we had a couple things we had to get done on the phone that felt like way bigger deals than they normally do.
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I almost cried in a business meeting, which was so, did you, did you notice last week when I almost started crying?
00:05:06
Oh, I was so embarrassed. I was just like, get it together. No. Yeah. Was that when it was just the four of us though?
00:05:13
Yeah. Yeah. Our coven. Yeah. And I did, I thought, okay. um I did notice it but I thought it was something else so that I was just kind of like that I was
00:05:22
getting my period I know I remember I said are you okay oh yeah yeah and you were like yeah yeah
00:05:32
and then I was like oh that's I hope she didn't think that was me being mean oh no I was really
00:05:36
doing it but that's the weird part and it is this part is driving me crazy it's very difficult
00:05:43
You and I have almost I I feel sometimes a like a psychic connection where I don't have to say a lot of stuff to you.
00:05:51
Yes I really don feel the need to because I know that you already there I wish you wouldn I mean I do I know I do a lot But and so it it more difficult and it very frustrating to me to have to podcast with you when there like say a delay or a thing
00:06:08
I don't get that the high of the connection. No. I mean, it's almost like we need to start recording our phone calls because those are so funny and fun and like very.
00:06:18
But then, yeah, then it would ruin that and it wouldn't make any sense anymore. I know.
00:06:24
I know. just it's just an odd like that part of the adjustment those are the things i'm missing
00:06:28
and feeling is like when people go like a human connection but there really is that thing where
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it makes me feel like i am when i feel i am connected to other people yeah it's very important
00:06:40
it turns out yeah it is i almost cried the other night thinking of like hugging the first time i'm
00:06:45
gonna hug someone besides vince and yeah or a cat it's gonna be so emotional i feel like you know
00:06:52
It's just going to feel like I feel like for the first it's going to be like when World War Two ended for the first fucking couple of weeks.
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Everyone's just going to be, you know, basking in these experiences that they haven't been able to do in three years.
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Hopefully, I think. I mean, yeah, really. When it actually ends up because people won't stop going out anyway.
00:07:12
Right. And it ends up lasting for a half a decade. Arresting black people and giving white people masks.
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Tickets. You know. Exactly. the total disparity of justice in this country anyway.
00:07:24
Anywho. Anyhow. We promised you this was an escape and we're escaping you right to the front page of every
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newspaper that you've had to read this whole time. That's right. The perfect escape.
00:07:36
I will say this. Here is how I am escaping. And I don't know why I found it so soothing.
00:07:42
Scandinavian police procedurals, much like their furniture, are so beautiful. and there's one there's a couple I've been watching that I really binged one is called
00:07:56
the truth will out okay and it's really well done really well made I think that one is on Netflix
00:08:03
can't remember everything is either on Netflix or Amazon that one is great and the characters
00:08:08
are amazing so it turns into like it's a cold case team that's kind of ragtag yeah love a ragtag
00:08:14
group of anything. And but so well written, like so realistically, wonderfully well written. And
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then this one I just started is called Trapped. And it's, it's Icelandic. And the main guy is this
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huge. I mean, like, let's be honest, he's a bear. He's like a bear. He's huge and hairy and has a
00:08:34
big beard. And he's really gruff. And he is small town Iceland trying to solve these murders.
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And you're like, maybe I need to move to this town. For real. I'm going there the second quarantine is lifted.
00:08:48
And we're like, it's like, come on. It's really cool. And they also, it's the thing where in the middle of a full on foreign procedural, everyone starts speaking English.
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When they have to talk to other people, they'll just be speaking English with no accent.
00:09:02
Where you're just like, man, that's cool. You're like, I'm sorry, but thank you.
00:09:06
Yes. I really appreciate it. Could never do it. I mean, I try to start taking ice, uh, Icelandic language lessons, but I would need the full five years.
00:09:17
That's right. Oh, God. Maybe by the time I get there, I'm saying, yeah, when this quarantine is lit and then she gets she gets to move there.
00:09:27
What else do you want to? I keep seeing a title of a show that I drunkenly wrote down to to recommend and laughing out loud.
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like it's it's like I have like Atlanta's missing and murdered on HBO and Evan in the Green River
00:09:43
like and then just in the middle of it is a show called Flipping 101 on HGTV. It's so good. And it's just people redoing houses. It's this guy he got losing their shit.
00:09:58
It's this guy Tarek. He had a he got a divorce from his wife who they had a flipping show.
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And so now he kind of gets this like short end of the stick show of having to deal with people who have never flipped houses before.
00:10:10
Well, she is going off to like marry some dude in Orange County and live in this beautiful house.
00:10:14
And I just feel for this guy so much. Wait, Eric. Is that this is that written into the show or it's just like, do you or you just know that?
00:10:24
If you follow HGTV like we do, then, you know. OK. Like, you know who he just he seems so I feel so bad for him.
00:10:33
Yeah. Well, you don't want to be in a famous couple and then break up. No. And then get the short end.
00:10:40
Well, I mean, how do you? Yeah, I guess you're right. If you're like immediately marry a hot person.
00:10:46
She married a hot person. She got pregnant. She's so beautiful. They've moved in this huge, lovely house.
00:10:52
And they're like remodeling friends' houses together. And he just is in like Alhambra remodeling like the saddest house.
00:10:59
He's got one of those really bad like goatee. Yeah. He's grown out of a divorce goatee that's not working.
00:11:07
Oh, my God. How many divorce goatees are out there? We've seen them where it's just like, I get it.
00:11:11
You're changing it up. Try to change something. You got to try. I get it. My divorce goatee is 50 pounds.
00:11:19
So guess what? No judgment. Everyone's divorce goatee is different. It's all different.
00:11:25
And there's no judging. Comfort yourself however you can, whether it's horrible facial hair or nonstop mac and cheese.
00:11:32
Do your thing. Yeah. I mean, here's something that isn't really anything I recommend per se, because it might not be interesting to anybody else.
00:11:42
But sometimes at night, because I don't want to go anywhere and I don't want to introduce anything new into my household.
00:11:47
So I'll just make myself like a quesadilla or something very basic with my basic culinary skills.
00:11:54
But then I just read Postmates Like I just see what restaurants are still open in my neighborhood It one of my favorite hobbies It really is where I like I would get this and this And then I just like close it all
00:12:05
Just shut it down. Scrolling Postmates. Sometimes I open it and I'm like, oh, what's new?
00:12:10
Like, what's new in my neighborhood? Even though I'm not gonna. No. I know all the restaurants in my neighborhood.
00:12:16
I know most of them by heart. And it was very scary. And you can kind of, it's a real measuring stick, Postmates.
00:12:22
It's because, you know, a week after the quarantine was announced, a ton of restaurants just went off entirely.
00:12:29
And then you're just like, oh, no, I hope those come back. And, you know, getting so worried.
00:12:33
Then there's all those restaurants that got super creative and want us to send you a bunch of flour and bread and sugar.
00:12:39
We can. And there's like a biscuit window near one of the places near my house where they just like make different kinds of biscuit sandwiches.
00:12:45
And it's just like, just go up to the. Yeah. I'm selling my house and moving into yours.
00:12:51
Hello. So creative. Yeah, I love it. That's a great idea. All the pantry items and shit.
00:12:57
I know. It's super cool. There's so many places. It's that thing, too, where I'm kind of sometimes I'm scrolling going, what if I made something?
00:13:04
Yeah. It's like, you're not going to. But then it's or what if I got a full Italian family dinner?
00:13:11
Like, what if I got wall to wall carbs in here? And then I'm like, close the window.
00:13:15
Oh, man. Vince was doing like an order on Costco. and he was like, I got this, I got that, I got, and then he said, I have, I got ravioli lasagna.
00:13:28
And I was like, hold up. What? So instead of the lasagna pasta sheets, it's just ravioli.
00:13:36
So it's like double timing. It's double the pleasure, double the fun. Front, back, front, back.
00:13:42
These are the times we're living in. To remember, get it, eat it. Eat ravioli lasagna.
00:13:49
like I mean how do you not how do you not turn to pasta in days like this how do you not go
00:13:56
that's the solution all the all rules are off here which is fun and nice and kind of teaching
00:14:01
me like a better way you know like just don't eat all the bread but you can have bread but you can
00:14:06
have bread have really nice nicely made bread and really enjoy it don't like beat yourself up while
00:14:13
you're eating it. What I'm doing as a small celebration for myself is using a very large
00:14:20
cereal bowl. It's too big. Have you done that where you're just like, this is easily three
00:14:26
bowls of cereal, but let's see what happens. I've eaten three bowls of cereal in a row,
00:14:32
but I've never in my life thought to get a bigger bowl of cereal. That's somehow not allowed in my
00:14:40
life it shouldn't be normally but now it is it is now it is now i love it you know this has taught
00:14:47
me two things about myself one is that i'm not i don't want to bake bread and i never want to bake
00:14:51
bread and i have no fucking interest in baking bread even though everyone's baking bread how
00:14:55
though that whole thing of starting your the wheat there's sourdough starter and yeast and it's alive
00:15:02
it's just like they call it a mother yeah out of here to put flour everywhere it's like and it
00:15:08
It tells you to make a mess. You touch it so much. You touch flour. You put it on this.
00:15:13
You add more flour. Keep rolling. Flour. And it's disgusting. Stick your whole hand inside it.
00:15:18
Make sure your hand gets all over it. That's right. All bread is 50% someone's palm sweat.
00:15:26
Oh, God. Yeah. Now eat your fucking bread. I'd rather it not be mine, I guess. And also that puzzle.
00:15:34
I have no interest in puzzles. And I fucking tried. I got a puzzle of like my favorite photo of me and Vince.
00:15:40
We're both taking swigs of beer on stage at the same time. So it's just like a can of PBR in both of our faces.
00:15:45
Got it. Made it as a puzzle. Literally poured everything out and was like, I don't want to do this.
00:15:51
Now, can I just give you a tiny bit of puzzle guidance to take or leave? Please.
00:15:55
I have no interest. Yes. When we do calls that are not Zoom calls, that's all I'm doing, baby.
00:16:02
Puzzle time. I need to. There's no. I should be into it. but and however yeah and okay you know what also it is sometimes and you have to have this
00:16:15
experience maybe to really have it start feeling like it's paying off but sometimes i just stare
00:16:20
at the puzzle for a really long time and then i'll just pick up a piece and put it in immediate like
00:16:24
it feels like puzzle psychic ability and that's what keeps me coming back for more because suddenly
00:16:30
i think i have this idea in my head i'm good well that is what's cool it just crossed my mind that
00:16:36
you can get better at puzzles. It's not just like you're always going to suck as bad as you
00:16:41
suck at puzzles. It's like your skills get better and better. Yeah. And it's a little,
00:16:45
it's almost like, can you face, this reminds me of like the, I can do puzzles now because of,
00:16:52
I think the fact that I'm middle-aged and like in a place in my life where I'm actively practicing
00:16:58
like patience and things that I have never been able to even approach before. And it reminds me
00:17:04
of like when I was in my late 20s on speed at like Buffalo Exchange, watching the girl that worked
00:17:13
there go through someone's garbage bag filled with clothes and she would take something out,
00:17:18
look at it and then fold it. And she just very slowly where I was standing there going like,
00:17:23
oh my God, if I had to do that, like I was flipping out, like, how are you doing this?
00:17:27
How are you doing it so calmly? And why do you like it? And this is awful. It's like Zen almost where she's just like, this is like origami or something where it's just right.
00:17:36
You have to make sense of it. Not on speed. Right. Oh, that's everything. Speaking of 20 years to realize that birthdays.
00:17:47
Do you want to talk about your birthday? We can cut this out. Speaking of. I feel like everyone who having a birthday and during this time now we now will understand what it like for kids who have their birthdays during the summer Which is why I have an idea to have a birthday blowout for everybody who has a quarantine birthday when the quarantine ends
00:18:10
That's great. Everyone in the world will all just. I mean, we'll see who I feel comfortable giving my address to.
00:18:16
But for the most part, we'll have all the good idea. all the birthdays where we're going to get stuck indoors and we'll just have a kind of a
00:18:24
someone just pulled into my driveway oh no no they're they're only turning around
00:18:29
um i pull out a rifle um uh i like the idea of like a party that might go all weekend long oh
00:18:37
yeah you can stay here you can get a room at the hotel street but like let's just do it bring your
00:18:43
dog and like blow it out hang out yeah people bring their dogs build a dog park in the back
00:18:50
yeah you know i get like i get like disappointed in a visceral level when i find out there's not
00:18:57
any pets at the party i'm going to you know yeah that means there's no escape hatch for you that's
00:19:03
right that's right yep all right um what else do you have oh can i no i just asked you a question
00:19:10
I'm going to let you answer it. No, go ahead. I don't think I have anything else.
00:19:14
Are you going to do a podcast? No. Oh, yeah, I can. Go ahead. Do it. You go first.
00:19:21
Oh, that's what I was going to recommend. And I know I've recommended it before.
00:19:25
But one of my favorite podcasters, who is, I think, a clinical psychologist and a Buddhist teacher, Tara Brock, she's doing a series now.
00:19:36
And it's called Sheltering in Love. And it's all about dealing with the feelings of being in quarantine and the frustrations that come out of it and the and the feelings that come up and kind of how to hang.
00:19:48
And it's very she's really good. Yeah. Like, I think she started it, you know, for three, I guess, seven weeks ago, seven years ago.
00:19:58
What am I talking about? She started it when this happened. Who knows? But there's now like five.
00:20:04
There's like five or six episodes of it. And it's just really helpful. Like I get up in the morning and as I'm doing, you know, the dishes are doing kind of things around the house.
00:20:15
I stick it in. It's just a really nice level set. So if anyone's looking for if anyone feels a little spinny or like my thoughts are taking over or I think this or I think that or whatever.
00:20:25
You're targeting me right now. I'm pointing in your face with my words. Yeah. It's just I find it so helpful.
00:20:33
Yeah. She's incredible. She's just one of the best. Speaking of, I finally started listening to Unlocking Us with Brene Brown.
00:20:41
And I, you know, I started and I was like, I know everything she says. And then, of course, I listened to the first few seconds of the episode and burst into tears, which doesn't fucking happen to me.
00:20:51
What are you talking about? It was. Let me see. Hold on one second. Oh, it was. OK, so it was the episode.
00:20:56
Dr. Mark Brackett, who does studies emotions and teaches us like how to feel. And he said something that happened in his childhood and how hard it was as a kid to like understand what's going on.
00:21:07
Fucking started crying. And then there's another episode that I really love called that's just her talking.
00:21:15
It's called it's just Brene on anxiety, calm and over under functioning. And it's just a 30 minute episode.
00:21:22
And you just like learn so much and everything makes sense. She started calling like your family that you were born into.
00:21:29
She calls it your first family. and that just calmed me in so many ways where it's like that's not that's not your chosen family that
00:21:37
is the first family that you were born into and then you get a move on from that if you want
00:21:41
and that's just like I really stuck with me so and also you're the family that you are born into
00:21:47
your family your first family or whatever you want to call it is also I always compared my family to
00:21:53
every family on TV because I did that um did you think I was gonna say every other family around
00:22:00
yeah oh yeah no i was always doing it to tv no you that's wow yeah so then i would be like i
00:22:07
remember one time in like you know fourth grade when i was like like trying to confront my mom
00:22:12
about that fact she had a job and she wasn't waiting at home when i got home from school
00:22:17
to give me cookies like who and she like like you know mrs cunningham or whatever like any tv mom
00:22:24
and she just literally she's like are you kidding me like it was like she's it was like this thing
00:22:30
of like, what are you talking about? Like, I have to work to pay for your stuff. Yeah, you know,
00:22:35
like, that's not real. But I just because that's the idea, you start getting these ideas in your
00:22:41
head as a kid. And if no one, if no one interrupts and goes, Yeah, that's not realistic. That's
00:22:47
pretty much everybody's mom has to, you know, either work or the job of being at home is work.
00:22:54
Yeah, no one's no one's sitting there with their hair done, and a bunch of lipstick on going,
00:22:58
honey I mean yeah it's very rare very rare yeah tv yeah that's how I did I did that with 90210
00:23:05
and relationships until I was like 20 where I was like this is how relationships are supposed to be
00:23:10
so dramatic and fucking tumultuous and then I was like oh you're just modeling after Brendan and
00:23:16
Dylan and Brenda Brenda yeah yeah it's Shannon Doherty friend of the pod Shannon Doherty love
00:23:24
you girl hi shannon doherty my sister we saw her at the beverly center the first time my sister
00:23:31
came to visit me i know i told you the story but the first time my sister came to visit me when i
00:23:35
moved to los angeles we went to the beverly center and we were walking around and shannon
00:23:40
doherty walked by and my sister's the only one who saw her i didn't even see her and my sister
00:23:46
looked over at her and she gave my sister a huge smile like i think my sister had the like deer in
00:23:50
the headlights like holy shit because it was prime 90210 era and she gave my sister this huge
00:23:56
lovely smile like super nice and then she my sister She was like, oh, my God, Shannon Doherty just smiled at me.
00:24:01
I'm like, bullshit. Because that's what sisters do. Sisters. Actually, that's the person I've been texting the most during this time and like connecting with the most, which is really nice.
00:24:11
My sister? No, mine. Although I did talk to your sister on text. Did you? She texts me and I, yeah, we text a little bit.
00:24:19
My dad and your, and no, wait, your dad and my husband have text a little bit just to check in.
00:24:25
that's the that's the love of a lifetime he definitely i'm not surprised that my dad texts
00:24:33
vince because he asks me how vince is i would say every other phone call where i'm just like
00:24:39
i mean this is sexism a yeah and then b what the like just ask him yourself if you're so interested
00:24:47
this is a fucking lumberjack at this point that beard it's like the third person in our quarantine
00:24:53
now. It is majestic. I've asked him if I could put flowers in it and take a photo. I want to see a picture.
00:24:59
I haven't seen it. I'll send it to you. Or I'll put flowers in it. It's pretty special.
00:25:05
Is it long? It's robust. Oh, it's going wide. Yeah. It's gray and there's red hair and there's whatever. I don't need
00:25:16
to talk about my husband's beard. Oh, speaking of... Sounds like you like him. So just speaking of my dad. So apparently, I don't know if you've heard about this, but Britney Spears has a home gym and she made a video on Instagram a couple of days ago telling everybody that she left some candles burning in her home gym.
00:25:40
And well, basically, she burned her home gym down. What? Yes. I didn't hear that.
00:25:45
Yeah. And so people have been tweeting me the video and going, what would Jim think of this?
00:25:51
Oh, yeah. And going like, we need to know Jim's response. So I actually called my dad.
00:25:55
Oh, my God. Oh, my God. I called him. And I'm like, Dad, you're going to have to hang in there.
00:26:00
Now, here's the problem. My dad lost one of his hearing aids somewhere during the quarantine.
00:26:05
So he's still waiting for it to be mailed to him. So it takes a while to explain where I'm like, Dad, do you remember the 90s?
00:26:16
It took a while. Then he's like, all right, OK. and then he gets mad at you because he's like yeah i know what you're talking about but i've
00:26:22
been explaining it to you yeah and it takes so long that he thinks i just want him to acknowledge
00:26:28
that she exists right and he changes the subject where i'm like no there's a story
00:26:31
dad dad she she left two candles burning and basically burned down her home gym and i can't
00:26:40
this isn't something i can respond explain to people on twitter so i figured i would save it
00:26:45
till now because he went and had this loud santa claus laugh i can't even do it correctly
00:26:52
it sounds joyous it sounds joyous he he loved it he thought it was hilarious where it's like
00:26:58
now that he's retired he's the the job is so far in the past he can i think be more light-hearted
00:27:03
about he thought it was the funny funniest thing he'd ever heard that seems really hard to do
00:27:08
Like I think like these days candles are made in such a way where it's unless you put it under a curtain.
00:27:17
Yeah, it's hard to light shit on fire with them. And we're going to get a bunch of messages telling me that's not fucking true.
00:27:23
And I totally agree. And I know. I mean, but I think there's in some ways. Well, people are at least looking toward that a little bit more these days as candle makers.
00:27:32
But clearly there's a large chunk of that story that's missing on Brittany's part.
00:27:38
But it's like and like, so how many days did they burn? Like, what are you talking about?
00:27:44
That two candles brought down your home gym. Yeah. And who works out to candlelight?
00:27:49
That's another question I have. For real. Like, that doesn't it. You're on the elliptical, like, sipping wine with candles and some Richard Marks playing in the background?
00:27:58
Cool. Home gym. A romantic workout? Hey, Home Gym. That's your dad's podcast. Hey!
00:28:06
Oh, and then basically, so I told, I explained to him that people were asking what he thought about that on Twitter.
00:28:11
And then he just went, I got fans. I got fans. Gym. Gym. We're big fans. Home Gym.
00:28:22
Home Gym. That's him during the quarantine. Is that it? Okay, sorry. Oh, no, that was the best story.
00:28:31
I wish you had led with that was incredible. I wish I wish it had been different.
00:28:37
I know. Exactly right. That's our podcast network that we started. Media. And we have, of course, the new podcasts are Bananas.
00:28:46
And I said no gifts with Bridger Weineger, which was in Oprah. Oprah magazine. Oh, man.
00:28:53
Guys, congratulations to Bridger. That is. Oprah picked you, Bridger. It's like his first month or two of podcasting.
00:29:01
and it's in Oprah already. Yes. So very cool. We just found out before pressing record that if you go to like iTunes and search exactly
00:29:09
right, all the podcasts that are on our network come up and then some so you can check out
00:29:14
what's going on. Oh, murder school. This week, murder squad. If you haven't heard it already, they get into the West Memphis three.
00:29:22
They got autopsy reports. Paul Holes digs into what the factual autopsy stuff is.
00:29:30
apparently it's amazing i haven't listened to it yet i can't wait i can't wait tomorrow yeah
00:29:35
um billy actually texted me he's like did you listen to it and i'm like sorry i have my own
00:29:40
podcast work on some things some things to quarantine but um yeah i can't i can't wait
00:29:47
apparently it's great and paul is you know in yeah i love it i can't wait that's such a that's
00:29:52
such a case that i just can i can not read or like you know look it up all the time and just I hope it solved one day I know It amazing It poor kids It so that documentary man I will never forget watching it
00:30:09
I watched it at Margaret Cho's house. Paradise Lost? Yep. We watched it one night.
00:30:14
John Travis was there. Abby Parker was there. Me and Margaret. And we were like gripping the seats.
00:30:20
Totally. We were freaking out. It was amazing. It's insane. And there was recently an like two part documentary called The Forgotten West Memphis Three, which is about the, you know, meaning the three boys who were murdered, those three West Memphis people. And it's really good, too. And I think the theory is right that the stepdad did it.
00:30:43
Yeah. Yeah. But it would just be so nice to know for sure. Yeah, for sure. Because there's been so many theories and you get you get led down so many paths.
00:30:53
It's like so many things seem possible in that. Yeah. In that situation. Yeah. Crazy.
00:30:58
Oh, I have a really quick corrections corner. Yeah. I said in the mini so this week, this week, I pronounced a city wrong.
00:31:08
Shockingly. Really? Yeah. New Hampshire town is pronounced Nashua, not Nashua County or Nashua.
00:31:17
Nashua. Sorry about that, guys. New Hampshire? Yes. I think so. I mean, we need a corrections corner for next week, so I might as well.
00:31:29
We really do. This is called creating content. It's how you do it. Yeah. We took a class.
00:31:34
We took a class in influencing. An amazing class at Santa Monica City College. Ow.
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00:34:22
Do you know what story I'm going to do this week? Tell me. I'm going to do the rescue of
00:34:27
baby Jessica McClure. Shit. Going back to the 80s. Oh, good one. How have we not done
00:34:37
that great one? Well, it's really out of it. It's well, underline italicize. It's out of the normal
00:34:46
true crime milieu, I would say. Yeah. But I was, you know, we were talking about where I was like,
00:34:51
we can just do what we would like to talk about. We don't have to be so we don't have to adhere.
00:34:56
And then once I got into it, as as always happens, once you start reading articles,
00:35:04
There is an unbelievable article by a writer named Lisa Belkin that was written in 1995 for the New York Times, and it's called Death on the CNN Curve.
00:35:14
And I recommend everybody read this article. It is an unbelievable expose about this time in the late 80s.
00:35:25
So I guess CNN started in 1980. It didn't really start making money until 1985. So before that, it was just this kind of it was almost like C-SPAN.
00:35:34
It was 24 hour news that no one watched. It was really boring and dull. And it was just for I don't even know.
00:35:41
I don't know what it was for. But then, you know, mid to late 80s, it started gaining a little bit of traction.
00:35:47
And this baby Jessica story is one of the things that started kicking off the 24 hour news cycle.
00:35:53
Disasters. People are just so interested in disasters Right But this was Yeah I mean we if anyone relates it us I not shaming anyone right here Yeah But it just fascinating because before this
00:36:07
time, and it's so difficult for a lot of people who weren't around for this. And it's odd to even
00:36:13
think about now, like, there's this time in the like, late 70s, early 80s, where nothing was
00:36:18
branded, like there wasn't stuff, brands of things sticking up all over you didn't have,
00:36:23
there wasn't that brand awareness it would just be like if there was a calendar on the wall it
00:36:27
would just be a willow tree you know what i mean you would see people just had a brown couch
00:36:32
a brown plaid couch and shag carpeting yeah you buy your couch from sears or jc penny or it's just
00:36:39
the couch that was there when you moved in right like it was there was this real brown low-key
00:36:44
aspect of life nothing nothing was sexy nothing was nothing was being advertised toward any
00:36:50
demographic it was all very kind of it was it was like rich people so it was like out of our
00:36:55
eye shot yeah yeah or it was yeah or as aspirational like the band of soleil commercial
00:37:00
where it's like the lady diving into the pool you'll never be here by band of soleil right um
00:37:05
i love that commercial anyway so this is kind of about the time where the 24-hour news cycle
00:37:13
began to take off and then i think that's another reason why i was kind of went oh this would be
00:37:18
good to talk about now. Yeah. Because now we are in this world where we're so used to it. And we're
00:37:23
so used to just getting constant information and kind of being left to the mercy of the 24 hour
00:37:30
news cycle, whether or not we're choosing to participate in a barrage. Yeah, well, you know,
00:37:35
but I was going to say this, because at the end of the episode before this, the live show that we
00:37:40
posted two weeks ago, I did say something about the news is trying to scare you. And there was a
00:37:45
couple reporters that tweeted at me like they were upset about it, which it was like, what I meant
00:37:51
was the people who decide what goes on the news, because I was absolutely wrong to say that in
00:37:56
terms of how many journalists are out there, you know, risking it all to tell important stories and
00:38:03
get the facts. And, and also, especially these days, there's so many feel good stories and
00:38:08
stories about people caring about each other and connecting with each other. So I did misspeak.
00:38:13
And I kind of used the language of the people who want to attack the media. And I should have thought that through better.
00:38:20
So I do apologize. Yeah. But I more meant the people who decide what we ingest as news, which is not it goes way
00:38:28
above all the people who are trying to report the news. Right. Keep us all in. It's the shareholders that decide what's allowed.
00:38:36
It's the six billionaires that run a political. Fuck you. OK. Excuse me. I scared Elvis.
00:38:43
Yes, we obviously your boyfriend. We we obviously we wouldn't have a podcast if it weren't for these incredible journalists who do so much insane, wonderful work that we then, you know, regurgitate, condense and regurgitate.
00:38:59
And we are so grateful for that. And in my wildest dreams, I would be a journalist.
00:39:04
I mean, truly. And yeah, true crime journalists, true crime writers. Like, yes, we would not be here without them.
00:39:11
So my apologies to anyone that was offended. Yeah. And that's why we up top before our stories give credits, because we know it's so important.
00:39:20
Entirely. So this story I'm about to tell you, I was going to tell you the version that I kind of experienced.
00:39:27
And then I read Lisa Belkin's article, which was kind of about the full experience, not just what happened directly after the rescue, but then the effect that had and the effect the fame had and the effect, the fact that the world could see this.
00:39:41
The world could see what happened in Midland, Texas, this tiny little town. Like, I mean, it's it and it at a time where it hadn't really happened that much.
00:39:51
Yeah. This was one of the first times that happened. It's really fascinating. So anyway, so it is October 14th, 1987.
00:40:00
I'm 17. My eyebrows are flourishing in a way. It looks like two huge black caterpillars have crawled onto my forehead and made a home for themselves.
00:40:11
Oh, 17-year-old Karen. What I wouldn't give to just hang out, just carpool somewhere with her, just have a chat.
00:40:18
And she would have done it if you had some California coolers in the backseat. She would be down to clown.
00:40:25
Yeah. Big hoop earrings, California coolers, 1987. Amazing. But now we're in Midland, Texas.
00:40:31
We're not in Petaluma, California. We're in Midland, Texas. And it's the morning of October 14th, 1987.
00:40:37
And 18-year-old Reba, her nickname is Sissy McClure. She's at her sister Jamie's house at 3309 Tanner Drive in Midland.
00:40:46
And Jamie has a daycare that she runs out of her home. And so Sissy's there with like five kids, one of whom is her 18-month-old daughter, Jessica.
00:40:57
So all the kids are out in the backyard, and Sissy's out there with them playing.
00:41:02
And then the phone rings. So she runs inside to grab it. And while she's inside on the phone, she hears all the kids scream.
00:41:10
So she runs back outside and all the kids are standing around a pipe that is three inches coming three inches up out of the ground and only eight inches in diameter.
00:41:22
And her 18 month old daughter has fallen down this pipe. It's a mother's worst nightmare.
00:41:29
and she's standing in it and freaking out, of course. Oh my God. She can hear her daughter.
00:41:36
I believe she can hear her daughter crying. Oh, I will also say that there's a TV movie that was made
00:41:42
in, I believe, 1990 starring Patty Duke and Bo Bridges. It's called Everybody's Baby,
00:41:48
the Jessica McGlore story. So in that, the mother hears her crying but I don know if that factual that just what happened in the TV movie Okay How deep We don know how deep it is yet We find out The well Yeah You will
00:42:05
Okay. Event. Got it. Event. Okay. So she, of course, runs back in, calls the police.
00:42:12
They're there in three minutes. And basically, they come to find out that this pipe is basically leading down to an abandoned well.
00:42:20
Fuck. So it's very deep, just so you know. Yeah. So the first police officer on the scene is 32-year-old Bobby Joe Hall.
00:42:28
BJ is his nickname. Bobby Joe. Bobby Joe. Everybody got a nickname in Midland. Bobby Joe, BJ Hall comes to the front door.
00:42:37
Sissy gets there. She is, of course, out of her mind. She just keeps saying over and over, I can't let my baby die.
00:42:44
I got to get her out. So Officer Hall assures Sissy that they're going to save Jessica.
00:42:50
He tries to look down this shaft to see her, but it's too dark. He can't see anything.
00:42:55
He calls out her name a few times. There's no response at first. Then he can hear faint crying.
00:43:01
So they know she's alive. Paramedics show up at the same time as the police. So the paramedics are back there with them.
00:43:07
They start pumping oxygen down into the opening. As more first responders arrive on the scene, someone comes up with an idea to lower a microphone that's attached to a flashlight down into the shaft.
00:43:19
so they can hear her. So they're calling out to her. They wait to hear her respond.
00:43:26
Then they hear her make sounds back and they can figure out from the length of the microphone
00:43:32
that she's 22 feet down this well. Fuck. Yeah, way the fuck underground. Yeah. So a little while after that,
00:43:42
they figure out a way to lower a video camera down into the well so they can see like how she's down there because they don't understand.
00:43:52
And essentially, they lower it down. They get this kind of side view and she has fallen down.
00:43:58
So it's in the diameter is eight inch, eight inches of this pipe. How big is that?
00:44:03
What's that like? Eight inches is less than a foot. So it's like if 12 inches is a foot.
00:44:08
I got like that. Yeah, it's like it's basically like it's tiny. like it's a big huge pipe but tiny for a child to fall into there's no wriggle room for her at all
00:44:19
not at all and in fact what they realized when the video goes down there is that she's stuck
00:44:24
with her right leg up and pinned to the wall and her left leg down so she's kind of in the splits
00:44:31
a little bit oh baby yes i know so uh the midland um fire and police departments they work together
00:44:39
They come up with this plan and they're like, we have to dig a second shaft next to this well and then tunnel across and then get in access and get her out that way.
00:44:49
So the city of Midland gets a backhoe over there. They tear down the neighbor's fences.
00:44:55
And this is a funny thing, too. So it's it's a very this neighborhood is very kind of like lower middle class, like the houses.
00:45:02
The houses all look like my old house. It's just like a basic two bedroom house.
00:45:07
Yeah. You know what I mean? Like all these houses are little square little houses.
00:45:10
They went up in the 70s and they're in the. Yeah. Yeah. And they're like with five foot fences in the backyard.
00:45:17
So if you stood in your backyard, you could see into your neighbor's backyard like, hey, what's up?
00:45:20
It's not like a big tall eight foot fences is like that. So but they're like they have to come in and like knock people's fences down, get this backhoe in there.
00:45:28
They start to dig down two or three feet and then they hit basically bedrock, like really hard rock.
00:45:34
And they realize that they're going to need something with more power. It's not a backhoe isn't going to do it.
00:45:39
So they bring it. Luckily, they're in Midland, Texas, which was like an oil town big time.
00:45:45
So there's all kinds of like, you know, drilling for oil type of places. You know, everyone knows what we mean.
00:45:56
We're from California. A drilling for oil place. You know, they're everywhere and all the drill.
00:46:00
Like all they have. Yeah. All this heavy equipment is around town because of that.
00:46:05
Texans know what we're talking about. They know and they relate. And hey, what's up, Texas?
00:46:10
You've always supported us. Thank you. Okay. So they bring in what's called a rat hole rig, which they usually use to drill holes to sink telephone poles.
00:46:19
Okay. So even using heavy machinery, it takes hours. And basically, as the hours pass, this backyard is starting to fill up with firemen, policemen, paramedics, volunteers, people who are hearing there's a little girl trapped.
00:46:35
and people saying, okay, well, I have this rig and I used to work at this, you know, like all these
00:46:41
people that know drilling and they're showing up to help. So the whole backyard is starting to fill
00:46:46
up with people. And one of those people is 36 year old police detective Andy Glasscock. And he's
00:46:52
actually going to spend the next 72 hours, essentially laying on his belly on the ground
00:46:57
next to this opening calling down to Jessica and getting her to respond to him to make sure that
00:47:03
she's still alive he's like the um he's like the hostage negotiator but but in a positive but in a
00:47:10
sweet way yes he's the baby baby hostage and the the hostage taker is the well the baby down the
00:47:18
well whisperer so he's a dad himself so he's saying that like he's calling down making her
00:47:25
say stuff back to him and so he's he said after a while he could tell what her mood was so she
00:47:31
would switch between angry huffs or pained whimpers or cooing. She would answer 80% of the time
00:47:39
but in the 20% when she wouldn't respond, of course, everyone would get super nervous. Then they
00:47:45
would say, oh, maybe she's sleeping or she's just really exhausted. And then Andy
00:47:49
would go yell down the pipe, what does a kitten go? How does a kitten go? And then they'd hear
00:47:55
meow. Oh my god! Right? That's the saddest Oh, and at one point, kids can't not respond to what does whatever go.
00:48:05
Yes, they're trained by 18 months. All American children are trained to tell you what every animal, what every sound every animal makes.
00:48:14
At one point there, they pause in the drilling and it's really quiet. And then they can all because the microphone's down there.
00:48:23
They can all hear her singing Winnie the Pooh, Winnie the Pooh to herself. She's comforting herself.
00:48:31
She's comforting herself. And I'm editorializing here, but I imagine all those big, strong Texan men lost their shit.
00:48:38
And in a very strong, manly Texan way, cried or brushed a single tear off and then got mad and demanded that someone bring them coffee.
00:48:48
Awesome stuff. Okay, so now October 14th, 1987 is actually a very big news day. So a U.S. flag tanker is hit by a missile in Kuwait.
00:48:59
First Lady Nancy Reagan is actually hospitalized for breast cancer. And the Dow Jones drops more than 100 points that day.
00:49:07
But none of those stories capture America's attention the way baby Jessica being stuck in the well does.
00:49:14
And that's mainly due to the fact that CNN is covering it nonstop. Yeah. I said this already a little bit beforehand, but it had been running for seven years at that point.
00:49:24
But this is only the second time they or any station covered a story live around the clock.
00:49:31
The first one was a year earlier when the space shuttle Challenger exploded. And this story was just as big, but in this way of that it still had an inkling of hope.
00:49:43
So CNN has reporters live on the scene almost immediately. and they keep their cameras like rolling on this backyard
00:49:51
for this rescue mission nonstop the entire time. And everyone is glued to the TV.
00:49:57
Millions and millions and millions of Americans. Dude, seven-year-old Georgia was fucking watching for sure.
00:50:03
17-year-old Karen was drinking in a field, but her heart was with the family. No, I saw it all.
00:50:10
So other news networks pick up the story and this backyard becomes, it's a media frenzy.
00:50:16
So when as reporters show up, neighbors are letting news cameramen like because first of all, the backyard fills up entirely that Jamie's backyard fills up.
00:50:25
Yeah. Then the neighbors are letting news cameramen into their backyards that are surrounding backyard.
00:50:32
And they're sitting on ladders in neighbors backyards with their cameras so they can get the shot above everything else.
00:50:38
And then that becomes kind of the surrounding outline. And so and that those spots are like coveted new spots.
00:50:49
Yeah, because those are all the people that have the shot. You know what I mean?
00:50:52
So it's and it's like ringing it. So all these guys are sitting up and then they need somebody to go down and like hold the ladder.
00:50:58
It was all it was all like jostling for space. It was like a really big deal. Midlands local TV station, KMID TV.
00:51:04
they start getting calls from all around the world for people asking for updates on Jessica's
00:51:10
rescue mission holy shit so the places that didn't have CNN or couldn't do it there people
00:51:14
are just calling in like hearing about it um okay so it takes this the rescue team six hours to dig
00:51:22
the first parallel shaft now it's nighttime it's getting dark the whole world is on the edge of
00:51:28
their seats and everyone is everyone is just scared to death will they get to her yeah yeah
00:51:35
and do we know who coined baby jessica or it just kind of became the name of i think it just became it i i'm i don't know i didn't find anything that said that but
00:51:46
it was me um i take credit took her first sip of her first virals and james and then
00:51:53
turned to her friend and said, I'm calling her baby. She's my baby. Suddenly I have a Texan accent for no reason.
00:52:02
And also it's not really Texan. Okay, so here's what I love. The Midland police chief and the Midland fire chief
00:52:10
both know they don't have enough experience for a rescue that's this important and
00:52:15
this, you know, delicate and complicated. So they reach out to a man named David Lilly, who's a special
00:52:23
investigator with the US Mine Safety and Health Administration in New Mexico. He's originally
00:52:29
from West Virginia, and he grew up in a family of miners. So he has extensive experience and
00:52:34
knowledge in underground recovery. So they fly David Lilly out to Midland and basically interview
00:52:42
him on the spot and immediately realize he is he knows his stuff. He's the guy and said it and now
00:52:49
David Lilly is in charge of this rescue operation. So by the time he gets there,
00:52:55
this parallel shaft has been dug 29 feet deep down. It's 30 inches wide. And they're actually
00:53:05
starting to dig a horizontal tunnel across to where they know Jessica is stuck. But then David
00:53:11
realizes there's a problem with the tunnel's trajectory because they've made it so they're
00:53:17
aiming right for where she is. But that would mean they would have to break the wall in on her.
00:53:22
Right. And so he's like, no, no, no, we have to dig down even further. And then and then tunnel
00:53:28
across and up. So he reroutes them. So basically, the tunnel will connect two feet below where
00:53:36
Jessica is stuck. Okay. So he also notices the dig team is using weak drill bits, which makes
00:53:43
them have to stop and resharpen over and over. And it takes up way too much time. So he gets them
00:53:48
built drill bits made of tungsten carbide, and they drill for longer. And so they don't have to
00:53:54
stop or do anything And he would later explain his strategy saying quote our strategy was that we would drill a series of holes in a square about 24 inches across and 18 inches down
00:54:08
And the holes would be no more than two inches apart. And then we would take a 45 pound jackhammer,
00:54:14
also with a tungsten bit, and hold it there to knock out the rock. And we were going about an
00:54:20
inch an hour. It was terribly hard rock. And it was slow going because you had to lie on down on
00:54:27
your stomach holding a 45 pound jackhammer in front of you. And then he says, but I've never
00:54:33
seen more dedicated people. That quotes from people mag. So the next day is October 15. And
00:54:41
the team finally reaches the wall of the well. But the rock around the well is even harder.
00:54:48
So in order to drill through that, they have to use a high pressure water jet cutting.
00:54:53
But finally, they do break through. But the entryway they make is really small. There's a local roofing contractor named Ron Short, and he comes to volunteer to help because he was born without collarbones.
00:55:06
And so he can like basically fold in his shoulders. Yep. And basically fit into cramped spaces.
00:55:14
Yes. So he's there. I mean, this is what the people of this spot into in like Midland, but all around.
00:55:21
Yeah. People show up and they're just like, hey, there's in this in Lisa Belkin's article.
00:55:27
She says there's a contortionist that shows up from Dallas is like, what can I do?
00:55:31
Oh, my God. Like people are just like, we want to. Yeah. We want to help. But they don't know how badly baby Jessica's hurt.
00:55:41
And they know that moving her could potentially make it worse. So they finally decide that a Midland firefighter with paramedic training named Robert O'Donnell should be the one that goes down into this shaft.
00:55:55
So this is actually going to be a full quote from Lisa Belkin's article, Death on the CNN Curve.
00:56:01
Quote, at noon on the third day, the drillers stopped. The reporters clung to their ladders and everybody watched as O'Donnell, with a mining light strapped to his head, was lowered by a cable harness down the shaft.
00:56:13
He was chosen because he was tall and thin, six feet, 145 pounds. He didn't mention he was also claustrophobic.
00:56:21
He laid down on his back and wriggled headfirst through the cross tunnel with his arms out in front of him.
00:56:28
The air was wet and sticky, and within moments he was bathed in sweat. It was like trying to slither through a tightly wrapped sleeping bag, he would tell reporters later.
00:56:37
Can you imagine? No! He inched to the end of the tunnel until he could look up at the shaft that held Jessica.
00:56:46
Only the first few feet were lined with the pipe that protruded up into the yard.
00:56:51
The rest was raw rock wall. One of Jessica's feet was dangling down toward Robert, but the other was out of sight, wedged near her head.
00:56:59
So she was almost in a split. And this is his quote, Juicy, which is the parent's nickname for Jessica.
00:57:06
Juicy, I'm here to help you. Oh, I might cry. Sorry. He asked her to move her leg, and she did, satisfied that she probably had no overwhelming spinal injuries.
00:57:18
He started to tug on her foot, but she didn't budge. She was wedged in too tight and he did not have enough room to maneuver.
00:57:26
He cursed. He prayed. He became resigned to the fact that he would have to leave so that the diggers could widen the tunnel.
00:57:33
Oh, my God. He promised her he would come back. God, that poor little girl. Yeah.
00:57:40
So he has to go back through that tunnel that was so awful to go through. Without her.
00:57:45
Without her. He comes up. He's really upset. there's some people their doctors on the scene that are like we think he's too upset to go back
00:57:54
in but he insisted that he was fine they got um like vaseline and they made it a little wider they
00:58:01
got vaseline and there was also just you know it's really interesting i found this infographic that
00:58:06
showed um yeah how how narrow this crazy tunnel was at top and how it widened out and they put a
00:58:12
balloon under her so that she wouldn't fall further down. Oh, well, yeah, yeah. So like they
00:58:19
came in, they put the balloon down there. And then basically, he went in, you know, it was
00:58:24
widened out a little bit. And and they just basically put a little Vaseline, he tugged on her,
00:58:28
he pulled her and he got her and he pulled her back through the tunnel. So at 10, at 10pm on
00:58:36
October 16th, 1987, after 58 hours, two and a half days of being trapped. Oh, I had chills.
00:58:44
Yeah. 18-month-old Jessica is pulled free by Robert O'Donnell and taken back across the tunnel
00:58:50
to the parallel shaft. So at the bottom of the shaft, that parallel shaft that they dug, paramedic Steve Forbes
00:58:57
is waiting there. He has a backboard, which is that thing they put when you're in a car accident or whatever.
00:59:03
He has a little one for a little baby. He has a bunch of gauze. So he wraps her head.
00:59:08
She's got a big cut on her head and her arms and, you know, stuff wrong with her legs.
00:59:13
So he basically does real rudimentary kind of head wrap. He sticks her on this backboard and they get onto this like plank.
00:59:21
And the two Forbes and baby Jessica are carried 29 feet up and out of the shaft.
00:59:28
And when they get to the top, and I swear to God, you all have to go and watch this.
00:59:32
It's a 40 second clip on YouTube. and it was I was crying so hard. I was like, this is more than just this video. But yeah,
00:59:40
it's so beautiful. When they get to the top, it's 10 o'clock at night. So it's all this,
00:59:44
you know, it's nighttime, but then it's all these lights like clean camera lights that they put up.
00:59:49
Yeah And by this point you got the reporters on their ladders but it like it like eight people deep It mostly men It mostly these rescue workers and these volunteers And when they come up out of this well there is cheering and applause like you would
01:00:06
I mean, these are seasoned reporters. These are like paramedics and firemen that have seen everything.
01:00:11
And people are going nuts. Oh, my God. Church bells across the town of Midland are ringing.
01:00:18
And Jessica, even though she's covered in dirt, she's clearly dazed. her mom is right there trying to get
01:00:25
to her she's alive and at this point all three TV networks all three TV networks
01:00:33
because it's 1987 break into their regular programming to announce that baby Jessica has been
01:00:39
rescued Dan Rather actually said live from Midland Texas Jessica McClure is up she's alive
01:00:45
what a fighter so good okay so she's taken to the hospital baby Jessica is taken to the hospital. Oh, and just in the video, just, you know, there's a
01:00:56
paramedic, basically Steve Forbes. So Robert O'Donnell is the one who got her out of the well,
01:01:03
handed to Steve Forbes. Steve Forbes is the one who secured her and brought her up out of the
01:01:06
shaft. And then Forbes handed Jessica to paramedic Bill McQueen. And he's the one that you see walking
01:01:13
her out very quickly out of that backyard into a waiting ambulance. She's rushed to a hospital.
01:01:19
She's in the hospital for over a month, about 36 days. She's got a pretty bad wound on her forehead.
01:01:27
And because her foot was above her head the whole time, the loss of circulation, she actually got gangrene.
01:01:34
And they had to amputate one of her toes. Oh, no. But other than that, she's okay, which is pretty amazing.
01:01:41
Over the next few years, she has to have about six surgeries. But aside from a forehead scar and the toe, she's totally fine.
01:01:52
And her hospital bills are paid. All the doctors that worked on her donated their time.
01:01:58
And then her remaining hospital bills are paid by anonymous donors. And the entire world begins to send gifts and toys and cakes and all this stuff to Midland, Texas for baby Jessica.
01:02:12
She is totally inundated. President Reagan and the First Lady call the McClures, tell them
01:02:19
that they watched from Nancy's hospital room. She was supposed to go in for a biopsy
01:02:23
and she said she wouldn't leave her hospital room until the baby came up. That's the quote from Nancy Reagan.
01:02:30
I spit on the ground of that name, but still. But still, we're all human beings doing our best.
01:02:36
Are we? Okay. I mean, are they? Will we? Sometimes. Sometimes. There are parades for the rescuers.
01:02:45
And when Jessica is fully recovered and out of the hospital, the McClure's guest on Live with Regis and Cappy Lee.
01:02:52
Remember? They get to give their firsthand account of the story. Of course, baby Jessica is so charming and lively and everyone is in love with her.
01:03:00
And of course, in 1989, they make the ABC television movie, Everybody's Baby, the Rescue of Jessica McClure, starring Patty Duke and Bo Bridges.
01:03:08
But of course, as with all things like this, with sudden and huge worldwide fame, there's a dark side.
01:03:15
The state of Texas files a negligence claim against Jessica's aunt, Jamie Moore, whose daycare center it was.
01:03:22
What? There's a mine pipe in your fucking yard. I know. That's the city. But it's pretty much what they have to do.
01:03:31
If something happens to a kid, they have to do it. And apparently the person at that department where those claims are filed was like, those people have suffered enough.
01:03:42
But Jamie Moore ended up closing her that daycare permanently. I mean, of course.
01:03:47
Right. So then the charges were dropped. But both the pressure of worldwide and small town fame eventually gets to Jessica's parents, Sissy and Chip McClure.
01:03:57
When they take $30,000 of the money that is given because people end up having to open like a trust account because people just keep giving money to baby Jessica.
01:04:09
So they take 30 grand and buy a three bedroom house on the edge of town, which is huge and way bigger than the house they already had.
01:04:16
30 grand. Can you imagine? 30 grand. The town gossip is like they're spending all of Jessica's money.
01:04:22
People start to go crazy. Yeah. Because it's jealousy and all kinds of stuff. This is an amazing quote from Lisa Belkin's article that really warmed my heart.
01:04:34
Not really. You'll see. Quote. We were over at Denny's one day soon after it happened when she came in, says Maria Petronella, who lives two doors down from the house with the well and was out front with a garden hose on a recent June morning trying to resuscitate her baked shriveled grass.
01:04:52
there was a wait and she looked at the guy and says just like that do you know who i am i'm
01:04:57
jessica's mother i said to her if it wasn't for a whole lot of other people you wouldn't be
01:05:02
anybody's mother oh damn oh shit so this is the kind of fucking small town you know pressure and
01:05:11
like the behavior change the fucking status hierarchy celebrity financial change the celebrity
01:05:19
aspect. Everything goes nuts. Yeah, it seems like it never works out great. Well, if everything
01:05:26
changes overnight, I mean, how can it work out great? You saw us at Denny's without we're out
01:05:34
of our minds cutting in front of people left and right. I gotta get moon over Miami. And I gotta
01:05:41
get it before you. That's what makes it delicious. So Sissy and Chip McClure end up getting a divorce
01:05:47
in 1990. The pressure just gets to them. But worse than that, the fame and the pressure also affects
01:05:53
the first responders who are there So this is another big quote from Lisa Belkin article from New York Times Quote the attention heaped on the McClure trickled down to the central players in the
01:06:05
rescue. Andy Glasscock was seen in the Michael Jackson video Man in the Mirror. That's right.
01:06:11
Remember, included flashes of major news events. Forbes and O'Donnell each received a wall full of
01:06:17
citations and plaques. And O'Donnell was asked to serve as a judge for the G.I. Joe search for
01:06:23
real American heroes and attend the White House awards ceremony for that program.
01:06:29
Not only was he a guest when Oprah Winfrey brought her show to Midland, but he also sat
01:06:33
next to her at the press conference beforehand. He was invited to speak at so many firefighter conventions around the country that he developed
01:06:41
a slide presentation. Forbes and O'Donnell and their wives were flown to Los Angeles to appear on the television
01:06:47
program Third Degree, where a celebrity panel tries to guess what two seemingly unrelated
01:06:52
individuals have in common. The panelists knew immediately who they were. Wow. That's yeah,
01:06:58
that's famous. Yeah. A four foot by six foot plaque was hung on the wall of the Midland Center,
01:07:03
a bronze rendition of the Pulitzer Prize winning photo. Oh, so there was a there was a news
01:07:09
photographer from an Odessa newspaper who was one of the people up on one of those ladders. And when
01:07:15
the baby got brought up, he snapped a photo that went on to win a Pulitzer. Holy shit. So like big
01:07:21
stuff was happening for all these people around there. Okay. An area a few blocks away was renamed
01:07:26
Volunteer Park. At the actual site of the rescue, an iron plate was welded over the pipe with the
01:07:32
inscription, For Jessica with love from all of us. In an emotional ceremony, the rescuers,
01:07:38
including O'Donnell, planted a red bud seedling surrounded by a ring of lavender chrysanthemum
01:07:44
over the refilled parallel shaft. Sounds beautiful. Yeah. So then, of course, Hollywood comes calling and there's multiple offers for TV for movies or TV movies.
01:07:57
So the rescuers and the volunteers become divided into two warring factions and they each accuse the other of only caring about the money while claiming that they're the ones who care about the story being right.
01:08:11
Or they they did the most important work and whatever. So essentially, it's that first wave.
01:08:19
No one's experienced any of this before, and everybody gets, as I like to say, high on their own supply.
01:08:26
Amen. So the one who seemed to suffer the most from this fame and then its inevitable sudden withdrawal was the fireman Robert O'Donnell, who first pulled Jessica out of the well.
01:08:39
When the phone stopped ringing, he became depressed and listless. He then became addicted to painkillers. Eventually, his wife left him. He lost his job as a fireman. And then soon after the Oklahoma City bombing in April of 1995, clearly suffering from PTSD, he drove down a lone ranch road and shot himself in his truck. He left he left a note that said no help from nobody but family.
01:09:05
Oh, God. So tragic. And I didn't know anything about that part of the story until I read Lisa Belkin's article.
01:09:14
And please go read this article. It's mind blowing. She spent a lot of time with him before he died.
01:09:20
She spent time in Midland. She tells the story from the inside of watching this town, like go through this amazing, beautiful, miraculous event.
01:09:30
And then basically the fallout and how it affects people afterwards. afterwards. It's really incredibly reported. PTSD is an ugly thing. Yeah, apparently when the,
01:09:40
he was watching the rescuers go into, you know, the Oklahoma bomb site. And he said to, I think
01:09:50
by that time he was living with his mother. I mean, things were very dark for him. And he looked
01:09:55
at his mother and said, those guys are going to need help. Yeah. Like, like, just knowing and
01:10:00
seeing like, oh, this is this is what happened to us on like an even bigger scale.
01:10:05
Right. Totally. But the upside and the kind of miraculous thing is baby Jessica herself turned out great.
01:10:13
So she goes on. She graduates from Greenwood High School in 2004. She gets a job working in a daycare center.
01:10:20
And as she's working there, she one of her co-workers introduces her to her brother who becomes her husband.
01:10:28
They get married in 2006. They have two kids, a little boy in 2007 and a little girl in 2009.
01:10:36
And then what's my favorite, favorite part of the story and so beautiful. People never stop donating to baby Jessica's trust fund.
01:10:46
And she wasn't allowed to access it till her 25th birthday. And when she did, it had $800,000.
01:10:53
Are you fucking kidding me? No, no. People from all over the world gave baby Jessica money for years and years and years.
01:11:04
Can you imagine? Can you fucking imagine? So so and also like, yeah, it's like basically.
01:11:13
Oh, my neighbor's waving. Hi. That's the guy that told me I was beautiful. I love I love him. OK, so then other than a small scar on her forehead and of course,
01:11:25
not having she only has nine toes right but other than that jessica doesn't remember falling she
01:11:31
doesn't remember right in the well she doesn't remember being rescued um she's doesn't feel
01:11:36
traumatized by it she feels really lucky and she says that the one amazing lesson that she learned
01:11:42
from that whole experience um she's told this to time magazine if you look hard enough there are so
01:11:48
many good people in the world. Right? And that is the story of the rescue of baby Jessica
01:11:56
McClure. Karen! Now, can I just Here's a post script. Okay. And this is real. And I've told a bunch of people this.
01:12:05
So because at first I was like, I'm not going to tell this story on my podcast because then someone's going to steal my idea.
01:12:12
But all right. I think this is. I think I wrote this document. I would say 2009.
01:12:19
Okay. And it was. This is something you wrote. This is something. Okay. So this is this idea I got.
01:12:25
I think it was like I was probably unemployed. Kind of just, you know. And I started thinking about the story because of how amazing it was and how big it was at the time.
01:12:35
So I started I wrote up a document because I wanted to write a sitcom called Oh Well about adult baby Jessica being a total monster.
01:12:47
OK, so here's the idea. And this was I knew nothing about real baby Jessica. So real baby Jessica, if you hear this fictionalized, I love that you're normal, cool and you have eight hundred thousand dollars.
01:12:58
everything about it but my idea was oh because i think i heard this i heard like in people or time
01:13:04
or whatever yeah that that she had this huge trust fund and in my mind it was like it's seven million
01:13:11
dollars or whatever so here's my document is a sitcom called oh well and it takes place in midland
01:13:16
texas baby jessica is now grown up and lives in a mansion built over the well she fell into when
01:13:21
she was 18 months old a trust was set up that day that the public made donations into which has
01:13:26
resulted in her living and behaving like a millionaire. She loves horses. Everyone still
01:13:31
calls her the baby. Her mansion is built over the well and she talks into it like a friend at night.
01:13:37
She has a know-it-all butler, a scroungy family. The town worships her. She has flights of fancy
01:13:43
from the trauma she suffered as a baby. So animals and creatures come to visit her from time to time
01:13:48
but she met first met while she hallucinated them down in the well. Oh my god. She's treated like a
01:13:54
holy relic in the town. People come from all over to see her. And she's constantly being asked to do
01:14:00
talk shows and parades. And she's horribly jealous of any other child in peril on the news.
01:14:09
Let's get that made. This is this is going to be my next big project. It's called Oh, Well,
01:14:14
it is not based on fact. But I love the idea of the of like, someone like this, that you're just
01:14:21
going to take it you're just going to be a rescued baby and then be like now you're all my servants
01:14:25
for the rest of your life i hate that other famous baby how dare that baby be rescued i'm
01:14:32
i'm the rescued baby no but she's like 39 all right that's my story that's the best great job
01:14:40
that was so awesome i love that you did that what a great idea thank you i mean i like the disaster
01:14:46
story element of it but it's a happy ending well and like there's this tragic element to it that i
01:14:52
i think it's that again that kind of thing no one talks about stuff like that so it's like we all
01:14:57
know the baby jessica story and we all like a lot of us read about like the trust fund where it's
01:15:02
like that's kind of beautiful but the robert o'donnell's role that he played and then the way
01:15:08
like what a wonderful thing and how much it meant to him obviously but then the way the fame and the
01:15:14
kind of like being in that spotlight and how it can affect you if you are, you know, of a certain makeup or you just like,
01:15:22
obviously no one in that town thought anything like that was going to happen. No, and they weren't prepared for it and they didn't get, yeah, the attention needed after.
01:15:32
Yeah, that's sad. While the world watches the stars at the FIFA World Cup this summer, Hyundai has its eyes on the next generation of talent.
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01:18:41
Goodbye. Are you going to tell me a story? I'm going to tell you a story. It's a little bit legendary, like yours.
01:18:48
Yeah. This is the deaths of Sid and Nancy. no dude how have we not done this all the times we've done shows in new york and neither of us
01:19:02
thought to do this it's crazy me and my friend laura milligan when we used to get drunk in the
01:19:07
90s i think it was with laura i think we used to sit like doing that it's the best i remember
01:19:19
I remember the movie came out and Sid and Nancy came out in 1986. And I remember I must have seen it, you know, in the 90s at some point being like, this is the most romantic story ever.
01:19:29
And then now I'm studying it as an adult. I'm like, this is fucked up. It's so depressing.
01:19:34
I remember hearing the quote where he was Sid Vicious said, like, sex is boring and stupid.
01:19:40
And I was like, oh, no, am I perverted? I think it's great. I think it's great and exciting.
01:19:45
No, no, you're fine. You're not the problem here. I'm not on heroin. I think that's the key.
01:19:51
Finish the sentence. Sex is boring and stupid when you're on heroin. So I got information from a website called History Collection, People Magazine, Mental Floss, Rolling Stone, the website Independent.
01:20:06
So there's two articles on the Independent. One is written by Joe Summerlad. And the other one, I swear I looked so hard and could not find who wrote it.
01:20:15
But it was from like 93. So maybe they just didn't have it, but it might have been Joe Summerlad for all I know.
01:20:19
A Daily Beast article. There's a documentary called Who Killed Nancy? And then also Wikipedia.
01:20:24
Karen, ready? Yes. Okay, this is Sex Pistols. As you know, they were an English punk rock band.
01:20:30
They formed in London in 1975. And they were responsible for initiating the punk movement in the UK.
01:20:36
It was already going on in New York. And the Sex Pistols were like the main thing going on in London.
01:20:43
And they're regarded as one of the most influential bands in the history of punk and music, popular music.
01:20:49
The group originally consisted of John Lydon, a.k.a. Johnny Rotten. He was singing. Steve Jones was on guitar. Paul Cook on drums.
01:20:57
And Glenn Matlock was the bassist. But in early 1977, Glenn Matlock was kicked out of the band or he decided to leave because his mom hated how anti-crown the band was and forced him to quit, which is really adorable.
01:21:13
And so he was in the name of all that's royal. Get out of that. How dare you? And just really quick.
01:21:20
Can we say if you haven't heard Jonesy's jukebox? Oh, it's one of the best radio shows.
01:21:25
Steve Jones has this radio show that is has in driving in traffic in Los Angeles.
01:21:30
Over the years, I've lived here saved my life. It's influential. It's so good. Amazing.
01:21:35
So Glenn quit the band for mom and was replaced by Simon John Ritchie, a.k.a. Sid Vicious, even though Sid had no idea how to play bass.
01:21:48
Okay. I really love that. I really love and respect the fact that he would get on stage and kind of not know how to do it.
01:21:56
No, it's great. It's so punk rock. Yeah, it doesn't matter. Yeah. So Simon John Ritchie, who I'm going to call Sid Vicious from now on because it's easier, was born on May 10th, 19.
01:22:08
Oh, that's not your birthday is the 11th. That's right. 1957 in England. And his father flakes out on his mom.
01:22:16
Her name is Anne. And then so she remarries the stepfather. Six months after their marriage, he dies of cancer.
01:22:25
No. How sad is that? Like you've got this second chance and that happens. so Sid Vicious's mom
01:22:31
raises him alone in East London and by all accounts Sid's mother Anne was fucking very problematic
01:22:37
she was heavily involved in drugs as both a user and a trafficker and when Sid was a toddler
01:22:43
his mom used him as a drug mule she'd stuff his clothes with packages of hash and smuggle them from Spain
01:22:49
to England so lady not a good start not cool that's really not Marion Cunningham
01:22:56
I thought my mom was bad Right. No, your mom's amazing. She killed it. Sex Pistol singer Johnny Rotten said that once he was hanging out at Sid's house on Sid's birthday when they were like friends as young teens.
01:23:11
And Sid's mom gave him, Sid, a bag of heroin as a birthday present. And I think even for punk rockers, Johnny Rotten was like, what the fuck?
01:23:21
And then Sid was like, oh, she means well. She just knows that heroin relaxes me.
01:23:25
So it's awful. God damn. Yeah. That's awful. It's so awful. It's not fair. So Sid had first met Johnny Rotten in 1973.
01:23:33
They were both students at this technical college in their later teens. And they had been hanging out in this little burgeoning punk scene that was actually pretty small in London.
01:23:44
And it originated in this little clothing shop called Sex that was run by Vivian Westwood.
01:23:50
Yeah. Did you know that? Yeah. There an amazing documentary about Vivian Westwood If you haven seen it it is so great I have to watch it I look up the title It amazing She so she just she did it in the face of everyone going
01:24:05
this is disgusting. And she would win these awards and everyone in the fashion industry
01:24:08
would be mad because they'd all they all wanted everything to look like those weird 90s plain
01:24:13
suits. And she was up there. Yeah, yeah, exactly. And she was like, how about a kilt and a tank top?
01:24:19
Yeah. Amazing. Truly amazing. I mean, the fact that they named their clothing store Sex just shows you.
01:24:26
So cool. So it was Vivian Westwood, along with Malcolm McLaren, who becomes a Sex Pistols manager.
01:24:32
And the clothing store specialized in clothing that defined the look of the punk movement.
01:24:37
So Johnny Rotten nicknames this kid Simon, his friend, nicknames him Sid Vicious,
01:24:42
because Johnny Rotten had a pet hamster named Sid that he named after Sid Barrett, the founder of Pink Floyd.
01:24:48
And then one day the hamster bit Sid and they yelled about him being vicious. And so now his name is Sid Vicious.
01:24:57
Legendary. Kind of an innocent. Yeah. Innocent beginnings. Right. And actually, I didn't know this, but Sid Vicious was originally a drummer and he was the original drummer for Susie and the Banshees.
01:25:07
Really? Yeah. So we actually could play an instrument. It just wasn't the bass. Even more punk.
01:25:13
Yeah. It turns out they're not interchangeable. so when the Sex Pistols needed a bass player Johnny Rotten like didn't care that he couldn't
01:25:21
play he brought in his friend Sid Vicious in February of 1977 and Sid Vicious never really
01:25:27
learns to play but he had been a big fan of the Sex Pistols he had been at every show
01:25:32
and he I think what mattered more for them was that great punk rock fuck you style with the
01:25:37
spiked black hair leather jacket he wore a shirt that had a swastika on it as a and he said it was
01:25:44
like a political statement as a normalizing the swastika but you know it's england and like two
01:25:50
decades past the bombing of your fucking town no dude no no so it doesn't matter what your
01:25:57
intention right doesn't matter what your intention is it matters what the impact exactly as we've all
01:26:02
learned right so in their on their debut album and only album never mind the bollocks here's
01:26:07
the Sex Pistols, Sivvicious, for the recording, was in the hospital with hepatitis.
01:26:14
So he was only on one track, one song where he plays bass. But even that track has to be dubbed over by Steve Jones.
01:26:23
So despite the success of Nevermind the Bollocks, which is a great album. Bollocks.
01:26:28
Bollocks? Is it Bollocks? Is it an O or a U? You're right. No. Jesus. I feel like you're my teacher.
01:26:35
I just I'm just I'm clocking you. No, I like it. I'm trying to be punk and mispronounce things.
01:26:44
Mom. Honey, it's bollocks. Bollocks. Fuck you. Despite the success of Nevermind the Bollocks, the band never records
01:26:54
another album and they break up after two and a half years of being a band, which is a fact that
01:26:59
many people blame on Sid's new girlfriend, Nancy Spungen. Let's talk about Nancy.
01:27:06
Sid! Sid! That's good. So Nancy Spungen is born in 1958 into an upper middle class Jewish family,
01:27:15
which I didn't know, in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania. As a young girl, Nancy is super smart, but her mom
01:27:21
describes her as a problem child. She has a lot of issues. She was born with the umbilical cord
01:27:26
wrapped around her neck, which may have caused some injuries. She throws violent tantrums as a
01:27:32
kid. She bullies her siblings. She threatens her babysitter with a pair of scissors. And she even
01:27:38
attacks a psychiatrist who was trying to treat her. So she's just really problematic. She's
01:27:44
diagnosed with schizophrenia in her teens, though I don't know how accurate that is. That must be
01:27:49
like the early 70s when those diagnoses and I don't know who diagnosed her if it was her, you
01:27:54
know, an actual psychiatrist or her mom just thought that. So whatever. But she starts using drugs, as a lot of us do, and graduates early from boarding school
01:28:04
at 16. And she moves out on her own. And by 17 is in New York City. She arrives right as the New York punk scene is blowing up and she makes money with part
01:28:14
time sex work. So she's totally enamored with the punk scene and all the hot dudes and the bands.
01:28:22
Amen. Hell yeah. Yeah. you're 17 and she eventually becomes known as a groupie and she follows bands like the new york
01:28:29
dolls and the ramones and it seems like she's just hanging out in that big you know cbgb era
01:28:34
so cool yeah i mean like just the definition of cool exactly like she's there she's in it
01:28:41
uh but she even she is regarded as a loud and obnoxious and unlikable which i'd like to say
01:28:47
is kind of the most punk rock thing you can fucking do it really is you know so like yeah
01:28:51
I feel like it's either that people have a problem with that means you must be really over the top, or maybe they're just not punk rock enough.
01:29:00
But she's rejected by other groupies and accepted by the musicians, mainly for her ability to get heroin and supply heroin to them.
01:29:09
So she follows the punk band Johnny Thunders and the Heartbreakers. They go to London for their tour there in 1977.
01:29:16
But they tell her to get lost. I think their manager was like, this chick is problematic.
01:29:21
She like just anyone she's around becomes a fucking heroin addict. Yeah. Which is like, I think they can do that on their own.
01:29:27
And she ends up meeting the sex pistols instead. So when 19 year old Sid Vicious and 18 year old Nancy Spongen meet, they're inseparable
01:29:36
right away. They move in together really quickly. And in a Daily Beast article, Malcolm McLaren writes that Nancy teaches Sid all about, quote,
01:29:45
sex and drugs and the lifestyle of a New York rocker. And some people think that Sid lost his virginity to Nancy, actually.
01:29:52
Oh, yeah. Because he wasn't in. He liked heroin more than sex So who knows Sex is stupid and boring A whole lot of people blame Nancy for Sid heroin addiction
01:30:06
But it seems like his mom might be the bigger issue. And he was fine before Nancy came along with that.
01:30:12
If he was getting it for his birthday. Yeah. It's her fault. But I guess like heroin at that time in the London scene wasn't big.
01:30:20
Again, everyone blames Nancy to bringing it over and introducing it to that scene.
01:30:26
Wow. I know. So in the documentary, Who Killed Nancy? Everyone talks about how Sid was so smart and sweet and a goofy kid with a great sense of humor.
01:30:35
It's fun to be around. And he was this young, impressionable dude. But then they go on to tell these fucking stories about him and what an awful, violent person he was.
01:30:45
But they tell it lovingly. But he actually tortured and killed cats. There's multiple stories of him doing that.
01:30:51
He would go out looking for fights and go out to shows like looking for fights. He used his belt buckle or a bike chain as a weapon.
01:30:58
After he'd pick a fight with someone at one show, he threw a bottle at a girl and permanently blinded her in one eye.
01:31:04
Jesus Christ. There are stories of him vomiting on groupies and getting into fights at shows and swinging his base at the audience, trying to hit them on purpose.
01:31:15
Fuck. He's like, Mommy, Mommy, I'm so bad at you. Mommy, please. Love me. Mommy. Mommy.
01:31:20
Yeah. So, Johnny, of all those things, purposely throwing up on people is so awful.
01:31:26
I'd rather take a belt buckle to the cheek than have some puke on me. There's a story.
01:31:32
Can I tell you that, like, I think it was Joey Ramon went into a bathroom in London to shoot up with Sid Vicious.
01:31:39
And there was no water to mix the heroin with. And so Sid took the syringe and in a fucking toilet bowl full of puke.
01:31:47
used that. Absolutely not. He was just one-upping everyone who was already trying to one-up
01:31:53
society. Yeah. Luckily, he never met Ozzy. Remember those behind-the-music stories where Ozzy was snorting
01:32:01
lines of amps and stuff? Oh, God! But he was friends with Lemmy, which is pretty cool. That is actually rad.
01:32:08
So Johnny Rotten's... R.I.P. Lemmy. R.I.P. Johnny Rotten's dad actually witnessed some of this
01:32:13
insanity and stated that he felt that they were due to vicious is insatiable need for attention. Never met by his
01:32:21
mother because she was a drug addict. He said of Sid vicious quote, if he was sitting here and no
01:32:26
one was taking any notice of him, he'd cut his hand or something to attract attention. You'd have
01:32:31
to take your mind off everything else and look at him. And he was like he did cut himself a lot,
01:32:36
like pretty severely and just always seem to like, be the center of attention. He sounds like a real
01:32:41
fucking asshole and not a pleasant person at all even though everyone's saying how lovely he is
01:32:46
and i think this whole nancy corrupted him thing is not legit at all not saying she's a great person
01:32:52
well it's like he's he's still an adult as bad as his childhood is he's responsible for himself
01:32:57
exactly you know yeah very like convenient i mean i know especially if that um you know the portrayal
01:33:06
of her is accurate which i it seems like it is yeah um chloe what's her name that webb i believe
01:33:12
yes chloe webb i love her so much good in that role but that you know the voice and the whole
01:33:17
thing where she didn't give a fuck about any she's like she was you know the real deal so i think it's
01:33:22
very easy like when a woman like that comes along a difficult woman it's like that there that's your
01:33:28
scapegoat right every everybody well it's like she's part of that yoko ono and courtney love and
01:33:34
her of like, you ruined it. And it's like, they kind of ruined it themselves. They ruined it. They were in there, those dudes.
01:33:42
And actually, then you also factor in the many instances of domestic violence against Nancy
01:33:47
by Sid. He beat her and left her with a broken nose and a torn ear, among other injuries.
01:33:54
I think it was Malcolm McLaren that said, quote, Sid chose Nancy every bit as much as
01:33:58
she chose him. And in respect of their dangerous, destructive codependency, he and Nancy were ideally suited. So, you know, they kind of were perfect together in that way.
01:34:11
Yeah. And everyone said that they that she filled a void and he filled a void in her that the other
01:34:17
one needed Nancy took care of Sid in a lot of ways. And actually, if he there's old video footage,
01:34:22
if you go on YouTube and put in Sid and Nancy interview, there's that interview from them
01:34:27
in a bed where she's just trying to get Sid to fucking wake up. He's nodding off and talking to
01:34:32
the end. I'm like, can I make you coffee? Do you need coffee? You know, right. Over the next few
01:34:40
months, as the sex pistols become huge, and they're all over the tabloids for their insane
01:34:44
behavior and this anti crown songs, Sid and Nancy are also like famous and are all over the press
01:34:52
for their heroin-fueled antics, and the press labels Spungen as nauseating Nancy.
01:34:59
They love to do those stupid nicknames. They really do. They really do. Because the public displays a verbal abuse and this shocking behavior,
01:35:07
and he does everything she wants without question once she said to him, push that groupie down the stairs, and he pushed her down the stairs.
01:35:16
Jesus Christ. So things are going... Well, devil children. That's right. And the other members of the Sex Pistols fucking hate Nancy so much that they ban her from their upcoming 1978 U.S. tour.
01:35:28
And in fact, their manager had already tried to get Nancy kidnapped and sent back to New York City unsuccessfully.
01:35:37
Yeah. Their tour manager told People Magazine that Sid began to dislike everything except for heroin and Nancy.
01:35:44
But there was already a rift growing in the band between the manager and Johnny Rotten.
01:35:49
so Sid Vicious's behavior only made things worse and it just seems like Nancy's presence in Sid's life
01:35:55
sped up the demise of the band but wasn't the catalyst. It doesn't seem like Johnny
01:36:00
Rotten was a fucking peach to work with either. Not at all. But at least he was trying to have a real band
01:36:05
and take the success they were earning with the whole, you know, directive. It was a great idea and it was cool.
01:36:13
And it was like, and then it's just like someone that's just like hell bent on ruining everything.
01:36:17
Just tripping and falling over the entire thing. Yeah. And just making a mess. Just ruining it.
01:36:23
So the Sex Pistols break up after their last U.S. performance in San Francisco in January of 78.
01:36:28
and then Sid and Nancy go to New York City and move into the historic Hotel Chelsea in New York City.
01:36:35
I said New York City. It's known for how it's like a historic landmark now. I felt that in my chest.
01:36:41
It was good, huh? I felt it in my chest and I felt it in your chest, too. Through the wires, we could finally.
01:36:50
Look, I'm channeling punk rock. so of course the Hotel Chelsea is famous you know fucking Bob Dylan
01:36:58
and Mark Twain and Stan like everyone famous ever stayed there and Sid and Nancy move into room
01:37:03
100 and register as Mr. and Mrs. John Simon Ritchie so they continue their fucking crazy lifestyle
01:37:12
crazy drug abuse partying these raging arguments domestic violence and all sorts
01:37:18
of shady characters are coming in and out of their room and they're there for three months and
01:37:24
it's just a chaotic time. So at this point they had been gathered 21 months and on the night of October 11th
01:37:32
1978 they throw a party and when at the party as any good boyfriend slash host of
01:37:40
the party does, Sid takes at least 30 two and all tablets, two and all tablets. Never heard of it. It's a
01:37:48
strong barbiturate and he takes 30 of them. So he's attempting suicide at the party?
01:37:54
He's just having a laugh. Okay. Yeah. And it knocks him out, obviously. So that sounds fun.
01:38:02
And the following morning at 730, the hotel guests start to report the sound of a woman groaning from room 100.
01:38:10
And then at 10 a.m., Sid calls down to the reception and tells them that he needs help.
01:38:15
And when staff gets up there, they find Nancy's lifeless body under the bathroom sink in the room.
01:38:21
and she has a single stab wound in her stomach. And so at just 20 years old, Nancy Spungen is dead.
01:38:29
20. They did all of that. It's crazy. I didn't realize they'd only been together for two years.
01:38:35
I always thought, like, having watched the movie, I thought it was years and years.
01:38:40
That's crazy. So the staff at the hotel remembers Sid being, like, he was dazed.
01:38:45
He was wandering the hall. He was wailing about how he had killed her. And during his initial interview, he confesses and says, I did it because I'm a dirty dog.
01:38:54
So he confesses, but he's arrested and charged with second degree murder. But once he's arrested, he retracts his confession, saying he was asleep at the time.
01:39:05
And he woke up and found her dead. And he said that maybe Nancy rolled over onto the knife when she was in bed and accidentally stabbed herself.
01:39:14
Nope. Unlikely. Don't think so. I don't think so. No, no, no. Personal opinion. No.
01:39:20
So in the following days, Sid is released on $25,000 bail supplied by Virgin Records, which is the band's label.
01:39:30
Or it's his label at the time. And a little while later, his bail is revoked after he assaults Patti Smith's brother, Todd Smith, with a broken Heineken bottle in a bar.
01:39:42
Because he was hitting on this dude Todd's girlfriend. and so the guy, Todd, comes up and is like,
01:39:48
please don't hit on my girlfriend or whatever and he fucking hits him in the face with a bottle
01:39:52
and slashes his face. So Sid Vicious is sent to Rikers to go through detoxification program
01:39:58
and get clean, but unfortunately, that doesn't happen because while he's there, his mother, Ann Beverly,
01:40:06
smuggles in her vagina drugs to Sid. Lady. Lady. Lady. Lady. So, Sid's released after 55 days on $10,000 bail.
01:40:20
And so then his mom and some friends want to throw him a freedom party a couple days later.
01:40:27
Yeah. So on February 1st, 1979, Sid and his friends and mom are having a party at the Greenwich Village apartment of Sid's new girlfriend, Michelle.
01:40:38
And his mother, Anne, gets some drugs for him for the evening. and Sid takes the drugs, but he thinks they're too, the heroin, but he thinks it's too weak.
01:40:48
So he asked another friend at the party to get him some more. And his friend goes out and buys some heroin from people he's never bought heroin from before.
01:40:55
And so the heroin is 98% pure, which is not what you normally get on the street and is way too pure for human consumption.
01:41:05
But Sid takes it and his friend takes it himself and almost overdoses and is like,
01:41:10
be careful this is really strong but then when the party breaks up and uh his friend leaves him
01:41:16
with sid with his mother and the heroin and shortly after it seems like sid kind of sneaks
01:41:23
some heroin and takes more and in the morning his mother goes to wake him up and finds him dead
01:41:29
from an overdose he is uh 21 years old and it's just four months after nancy's death
01:41:37
Shit. I mean, yeah. 21. 21 and 20. Also... Okay, go ahead. No, go ahead. How come he had a girlfriend immediately after?
01:41:52
I think they met at Rikers in like rehab or something Jesus Christ I met my first real boyfriend in rehab But not for heroin Thank God Well also I mean that kind of a good place in some ways
01:42:08
because I guess you're all sitting in a circle. Yeah. Being super real and authentic. We did
01:42:13
stop doing meth together. So I guess it worked. But with Sid's death, the police closed the case
01:42:18
on Nancy, on Nancy's death, and no further investigation is ever done. And over the years,
01:42:23
people have debated about Nancy's murder and whether or not Sid actually killed her.
01:42:28
And there's all these fucking theories in my estimation. And I think I kind of show this in
01:42:33
the movie. You know, he gets he's high, he gets annoyed with her, he stabs her, he goes back to
01:42:38
sleep. That's probably what happened. But there is a possibility that he didn't kill her. And
01:42:46
because the amount of drugs he was on, maybe he couldn't have woken up. And there's other
01:42:51
suspects there's drug dealers like in and out of the room the night before and the police did say
01:42:57
that they had been robbed of fifteen hundred dollars so but that could happen anyway so yeah
01:43:03
but i mean and people hated her enough to have her kidnapped to get away from them right i mean
01:43:10
like it's not like she was like beloved by all beloved by all exactly it's like god there must
01:43:17
have been so many suspects. That's right. But the police and the police discovered fingerprints
01:43:22
belonging to six different people who had criminal records, but they never interviewed any of them.
01:43:27
And none of the visitors from the night before were ever interviewed. The murder weapon had also
01:43:32
been wiped down and cleaned. Oh, and no blood or fingerprints were found on it. So that's,
01:43:41
that's a weird one, right? Sounds like the cops were like, two junkies killed each or a junkie
01:43:46
killed another junkie and it's like we're not doing the paperwork right but if he yeah if he
01:43:51
had like in the middle of you know being passed out stabbed her i don't think he would have had
01:43:56
the wherewithal to wipe or maybe he did it right before he called the cops seems unlikely but yeah
01:44:02
yeah who knows and then if she had done it which a lot of people think that they did why would she
01:44:07
how and why would she wipe it wipe off the weapon that she stabbed herself yeah and it is true that
01:44:15
She had done like a, you know, suicide attempt before just to get his attention.
01:44:22
So it's not totally out of the realm of possibility. And then there's also people who think that they had a suicide pact together.
01:44:30
When after Sid's death, his mom found a handwritten note in Sid's leather jacket reading,
01:44:36
we had a death pact and I have to keep my half of the bargain. Please bury me next to my baby.
01:44:41
bury me in my leather jacket, jeans and motorcycle boots. Goodbye. Wow. Maybe he
01:44:48
overdosed on purpose. Who knows? And it's also possible that Nancy killed herself on accident
01:44:53
because she was, you know, she was also they were both also known to self mutilate. And so after
01:44:59
finding that note, Ann contacts Nancy's parents and asked if Sid could be buried next to Nancy.
01:45:06
And they're like, hell no. First of all, she's being buried in a Jewish cemetery. And second of
01:45:11
Like we think he is part of the reason she's, you know, of course they were like, no.
01:45:15
But Anne does climb over the fence of the cemetery and scatters some of Sid's ashes on Nancy's grave.
01:45:24
Wow. What a mother. She did it. She did it. She really did it. So the biopic Sid and Nancy from 1986.
01:45:34
Amazing movie. Amazing. Directed by Alex Cox, who did Repo Man. Did you know that?
01:45:39
Of course you did. I mean. Yeah. So it's it is played by Gary Oldman and Nancy's played by Chloe Webb and.
01:45:49
And also, of course, musician Courtney Love was 22. It came out and she was like, this is the role I'm fucking meant to play.
01:45:58
Unfortunately, she didn't get the role, but she does play a smaller part as one of Nancy's friends.
01:46:03
Yeah, she's I mean, she's a standout, though. She is. That's the thing about Courtney Love.
01:46:07
I remember watching that movie and it's like, oh, no, what's happening here? Like you can't take your eyes off.
01:46:13
She never does anything half assed. No, no, sure. Yeah, the real deal. So Sid's mother,
01:46:18
Anne takes her own life in 1996 at 63 years old. And the guardian sums up the, that Sid and Nancy's tragedy as Romeo and Juliet with syringes.
01:46:30
And there is a poem that Sid wrote for Nancy that goes, you were my little baby girl.
01:46:37
And I knew all your fears, such joy to hold you in my arms and kiss away your tears. But now you're gone. There's only pain
01:46:46
and nothing I can do. And I don't want to live this life if I can't live for you.
01:46:50
So there might have been actual like real love there between the two of them and finally having
01:46:54
someone who understood the other. Yep. But you can't add heroin into the mix. Yeah, I mean, that's gonna wreck it. Yeah, for sure. So music critic Lester Bang's legendary
01:47:07
after Nancy's death said, quote, Sid and Nancy were possibly two of the most pathologically
01:47:12
tortured humans on the face of the earth. And that is the deaths of Sid, Vicious and Nancy
01:47:19
Spungen. Wow. Amazing. Great job. Thank you. Everyone go watch Sid and Nancy. It's so good.
01:47:32
Gary Oldman. It's like Gary Oldman's like breakout role, right? Yeah, he's so good.
01:47:37
He was in a really good movie right before, I think before that, that was British, that was about a British playwright who was gay.
01:47:47
Now I can't remember what that was called. It was so good. Do you remember that movie?
01:47:51
Yeah, I saw it today in one of the articles, but I can't remember what it was. Is the word dog in the title I can remember Let see It was really good Very 90s And in the movie in Sid and Nancy Sid mom gave Gary Oldman when he went to talk to her
01:48:06
gave him the actual chain and lock that Sid wore to wear in the movie. So that's the real one there.
01:48:11
Oh, wow. Yeah. Oh, yeah. It's kind of cool. Yeah. God, that mom, man. What a talk about.
01:48:18
She's the third most tortured soul on the planet. That's right. I mean, pathologically, whatever.
01:48:23
God, it's just so unhealthy. It's so unhealthy. And it's so like, oh, you didn't stand a chance.
01:48:32
No. Little kid. Like you didn't have a shot at a normal life. And you know what sucks is that the music, I think that a lot of people who had really shitty childhoods, they do go into music.
01:48:45
And it is their escape. It is the release. It's the thing that brings them somewhere else.
01:48:49
Yeah. And he had the opportunity. clearly he could play instruments he had a musical like yeah you know talent and but but
01:48:58
fucking heroin heroin ruins everything and there is this idea too like if he had gone to rikers and
01:49:04
actually tried to get sober maybe his life would have taken a total different you know trajectory
01:49:10
and maybe nancy's life if you know if she had had a chance to go home and you know recover a little
01:49:16
and get real psychiatric help and maybe her life could have been way different i bet she would have
01:49:20
been pretty fucking awesome yeah but the thing that makes it so dark is like he couldn't do that
01:49:25
because his own mom was like sabotaging exactly that sucks so much oh i looked up the um that
01:49:32
vivian westwood documentary is called westwood colon punk icon activists is from activist it's
01:49:38
from 2018 cool it's really mind-blowing because i my um hilarious friend luke loves vivian westwood
01:49:45
so much and he basically made me watch that and I didn't know I knew about her you know very
01:49:51
tangentially and kind of like her cool style but not details right like she she really she was a
01:49:58
driving force of the actual style of that like late 70s which is such a huge part of it can almost
01:50:05
say that one wouldn't exist without the other in a way and they say you know like all those styles
01:50:10
of like having safety pins or wearing like, you know, the clothes they wore. It was part of it was because of the the there was really bad socioeconomic.
01:50:21
It was like Thatcher's England at that time. And so they would have like the garbage men would go on strike.
01:50:26
And then so there was just garbage piled in the streets. So when the teenagers would walk from like their house to a club there and I can't remember
01:50:34
this if this might be in Sid and Nancy or it might be in a documentary about that time.
01:50:39
they would just pick up garbage bags and put them on oh you know what i mean because it was just like
01:50:44
garbage was everywhere yeah people were poor there were strikes all the time there's a lot
01:50:48
of labor issues there was like there was so much um it was like a kind of a depression yeah
01:50:54
and a tension that was like very much like class class issues and that's why you know that that
01:51:00
whole thing of like god save the queen and basically saying fuck you royals yeah it took
01:51:04
off because it was like we're all down here in the muck and in literally in piles of garbage and
01:51:10
you're in your in your tower like saying pay more taxes right you know right rough stuff all right
01:51:16
karen i want to do time fucking hoorays yes i love it all right do you want to go first sure
01:51:22
this starts fucking hooray hey mfm fam during the covet 19 quarantine i've been feeling hopeless
01:51:31
and helpless as I'm not an essential worker nor a health care worker and I'm horrible with a needle
01:51:36
and thread. I felt there was something more I could be doing to contribute to supporting our
01:51:40
community during this time. My fucking hooray. My boyfriend and I took to walking around our
01:51:46
community with trash bags and my old wagon collecting litter from parks and roadsides.
01:51:52
After just one weekend, we collected eight contractor trash bags filled to the brim.
01:51:57
If I can't fight the virus directly, at least I can fight pollution. Thanks for all you do.
01:52:02
Keep killing the game and stay healthy for all our sake. Shelby in Bucks County, Pennsylvania.
01:52:08
That's awesome, Shelby. That's fucking beautiful and important. It's important for your mental health.
01:52:14
And it's so cool that you found something to do. But you're helping your community.
01:52:18
And that's fucking beautiful. It's really beautiful. This one is from a rang you lent something.
01:52:26
Okay. Hashtag fucking hooray. My fucking hooray is for the staff at St. Mary's Hospital in Decatur, Illinois.
01:52:33
I went into their ER late Tuesday night with intense stomach pain and ended up needing an emergency appendectomy.
01:52:41
Oh, so scary. All the time. So scary. Oh, my God. Due to COVID-19, my husband was not allowed to be with me and I had to go through the whole thing alone.
01:52:51
Every single nurse, doctor and staff member was gentle, friendly and comforting.
01:52:55
I had never had surgery before so it was especially scary everything went well and I'm back home
01:53:01
recovering thank god how terrifying I'm so glad that went well I really don't want to go to the hospital
01:53:11
I have to go I have to go this is from Blood Splatter Analyst and it's Anna is in all caps
01:53:18
so I'm assuming this person's name is Anna hi my fucking hooray is that down my street a little girl
01:53:24
is always on her porch and every day she does something special for people walking by. She has
01:53:30
her violin practices out there, makes signs, yells out funny jokes, etc. She brings me joy every time
01:53:38
I pass her and she loves when I say something back to her. Stay home and safe, but make sure
01:53:43
you still interact with others somehow. Anna. That's so cute. That is very cute. Vince and I
01:53:50
We sit out front of our garage now in our lawn chairs and say hello to everyone walking by and silently judge them if they not wearing masks But you know So true This is from Science of Myself Says my fucking hooray for the week
01:54:06
I work at a domestic violence shelter in Central Texas. And this week, our staff received a cookie delivery.
01:54:13
It was from Brene Brown. What? And then there's a smiley face emoji, a cookie emoji, and a heart emoji.
01:54:21
How incredible. I didn't know this when I talked about Brene Brown at the top of the show.
01:54:26
I hadn't read this yet. But what? That's the whole story? Yeah. They received a cookie delivery at their domestic violence shelter in Central Texas.
01:54:35
And it was from Brene Brown. Fuck yes, Brene Brown. I mean, just... Class act. Just doing it right.
01:54:43
Class act. That's beautiful. Yeah. this one is from ashley ann ashley ann okay i am a first-time mom and my two-month-old baby girl
01:54:57
cannot sleep for more than 15 minutes by herself alone in the bedroom she has to be sleeping right
01:55:03
next to me or my husband or one of us has to hold her she will sleep for hours this way but this
01:55:09
morning after i fed her i put her back down in the bedroom for a nap and she slept for all caps
01:55:14
two and a half hours alone. My husband and I were able to make ourselves breakfast
01:55:20
and he worked on his laptop while I enjoyed some me time with a cup of coffee and a few chapters of the stranger beside me.
01:55:28
Hell yeah. Also, I only peeked in on her once to make sure she was still breathing,
01:55:34
which is a major progress, which is major progress because I wanted to check in again like 80 more times,
01:55:39
but I talked myself down. Baby steps, literally. Fucking hooray from me and my baby girl, SSDGM, Ashley Ann.
01:55:47
Good job, Ashley Ann. You know, my mom used to tell the story when she had my sister, her first baby, she would
01:55:54
go in every 15 minutes with a mirror. Yeah. She wanted to make sure Laura was still breathing.
01:56:00
I bet. It's just terrifying. How could you not? Totally. Okay, here's my last one.
01:56:05
This is from Mushroom Beast. my hashtag fucking hooray is that my mom linda gave me a thumbs up yesterday my mom had a stroke
01:56:16
in february and it was the scariest day i've ever experienced she was totally healthy doesn't smoke
01:56:22
doesn't drink and one sunday morning she just had a stroke she was paralyzed down her left side for
01:56:28
a while and with intense physiotherapy her movement is coming back and we kept joking that
01:56:34
when she could give me a thumbs up, we'd celebrate. Well, yesterday I came downstairs
01:56:38
and she was sitting grinning at me with her thumb up. She's the strongest woman I know
01:56:44
and she has just been so determined and focused in her recovery. So fucking hooray and thumbs up.
01:56:51
Yes. Oh my God. Crazy the little things you focus on and that matter once everything is real.
01:57:01
Yeah, when you get that perspective of like, listen, this is the thing that it gives us a lot of stress and a lot of, you
01:57:08
know, panicky feelings. But there is this advantage to looking at life like that could happen to you or you
01:57:16
could catch the cerebral disease or something that this is not. We are lucky every moment that we have with our health is a gift and we should treat ourselves
01:57:24
like it's a gift and we should treat other people like it's a gift and we should all
01:57:28
go out onto our symbolic porches with our symbolic violins and play them for other people and be nice
01:57:36
to your neighbors and wave to people and like get in the game while you still can. It's important.
01:57:42
I love that. It's so true. It's so true. I really, really hope that we come out of this
01:57:47
whenever we come out of it a little kinder. Everyone is a little more easy on everyone else
01:57:55
and a little kinder. Well, I think already a lot of us, and it's only been about two months,
01:58:02
really of starting to appreciate the like, other human beings and the potential connection and the
01:58:09
connections that we have and the things that we miss and like, that all those things, like that
01:58:14
the screen doesn't give it to you. And like the internet does not give it to you. And you can only
01:58:19
really get it from people in front of you. And so yeah, hopefully, that's something that doesn't
01:58:23
just immediately evaporate the second we're all like, woohoo, it's over. I can go to a baseball game or whatever.
01:58:32
Yeah, for sure. And, you know, thanks all of you for listening. Everyone is, people say such nice things to us online about, you know, continuing to do
01:58:40
this podcast. For me, it's a gift to get to. What a miracle that this, you know, that we get to do that.
01:58:47
And we have these people that care so much and listen and give a shit. I mean, like, it's really nice.
01:58:53
It's really, really, it's really a gift. So thank you guys. Thank you. We're so incredibly lucky and grateful for you guys.
01:59:00
Send your fucking arrays. Just hashtag them and we'll read them next week, maybe.
01:59:05
Yeah, big or small, whatever's going on with you. It's very good for your mental health to keep a gratitude list.
01:59:14
And so try to do it and try to find those moments so that you can fucking hooray along with us.
01:59:21
And in the meantime, stay sexy. And don't get murdered. Goodbye. Elvis, do you want a cookie?
01:59:30
Yeah. Okay. If audiobooks are your thing, or if you've been meaning to listen to more of them,
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Check out Earsay on the iPod. radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Goodbye.
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