00:00:00
Guys, we're so excited because our new film podcast, I Saw What You Did, has premiered.
00:00:05
We are sharing episode one with you here in the My Favorite Murder feed. And then episode two of the podcast comes out today.
00:00:11
So head on over and subscribe to I Saw What You Did to listen to this week's episode.
00:00:17
I Saw What You Did is hosted by film expert Millie DiCerico and film enthusiast and TV writer Danielle Henderson.
00:00:23
Every Tuesday, they present you with a double feature covering two movies that share a wild theme, like classic movie fuckboys or blonde women who will ruin your life.
00:00:32
The theme for this episode, entitled Esteemed Dirtbags, is favorite films based on true crime.
00:00:38
And they discuss the movies Heavenly Creatures and The Honeymoon Killers. Plus, Danielle's grandma made a special appearance in this episode that already broke the Internet with her child rearing advice using horror films as learning tools.
00:00:50
And on top of all that, Millie and Danielle bring a much needed female and person of color voice to movie culture in a really fun way.
00:00:58
So check out episode one of I Saw What You Did right now and go find episode two in the I Saw What You Did feed.
00:01:05
You'll get a new episode presenting a double feature every Tuesday. Don't forget to subscribe to I Saw What You Did on Stitcher, Apple Podcasts, Spotify or wherever you listen.
00:01:13
And you can follow them at I Saw Pod on Instagram and on Twitter. Goodbye. Hi, everybody. Welcome to the very first episode of I Saw What You Did.
00:01:34
My name is Millie DeCherico. And I'm Danielle Henderson. And we're going to be watching a different double feature every week with a wild theme that we choose.
00:01:42
Let's legitimize ourselves. Let's endear ourselves to you as an audience. Well, I feel like it's important that people know that we're like, we're friends in real life.
00:01:53
Yes, we are. We know each other. We love each other. This is not just a business arrangement.
00:01:59
We were not set up on a date from the podcast Bachelor or whatever, like. But we're real friends.
00:02:07
Like we were like met on live journal friends. Like we've known each other for way back, met in real life.
00:02:14
And now both live in Los Angeles. Although you have defected for a moment. You're momentarily elsewhere.
00:02:21
You're in your secret bunker. Yeah. But I think we're excited to do this podcast because I'm a film enthusiast, but you are a film expert.
00:02:29
And we go to the movies all the time. And it's a big part of our friendship is to watch movies, talk about movies.
00:02:34
Yeah. I mean, honestly, like, I think, I mean, if you want to call me a film expert, I'll let you for the sake of this exercise.
00:02:42
But I will say I never want to hang out with other film experts. Do you know what I'm saying?
00:02:50
Like, I'm like, why would I do that? So I'm so glad that I roped you into doing this podcast with me because I'm like, Danielle is she is like a perfect.
00:03:00
You like love film, but you're not like, you know, in that world where you're like, well, actually, yeah, I'm not in 1948.
00:03:09
the key grip for, you know, blah, blah, blah. You're not, you know, nailing me every five
00:03:14
minutes for getting like a year wrong for something. No way. Well, at least I wasn't
00:03:19
until we started doing this. And now I'm going to want straight cold facts. But that's why I'm
00:03:27
glad to be doing this with you as well. Because when I say film expert, I mean it like you're so
00:03:33
knowledgeable about film and it's part of your job. You're a film programmer for TCM, but it's
00:03:38
also part of your life. So when you talk about movies, it's just so enthusiastic. And you don't
00:03:44
make me feel like, oh, you've never watched this? Well, I can't talk to you if you've never watched
00:03:49
Gone with the Wind. And I like that. I appreciate that about it. Oh, that's really sweet. I'm really glad that you see me like that. Because I think,
00:03:57
again, going back to sort of like the film person stereotypes, like, you know, I think that
00:04:03
And film, like music, like a lot of things is just an intimidating subject because it's, you know, span the course of history.
00:04:11
It's there's a lot going on. There's a lot that has gone on. And so it's sort of like a thing where you're like, oh, man, I don't even know.
00:04:20
I think it's really enjoyable to hang out with people who haven't watched movies that I watched.
00:04:25
And I'm also not the type of person that's trying to get you to watch a movie like in that way where it's like, come on, what are you stupid?
00:04:32
Like you've never seen blah, blah, blah. I just think that's so there's so many reasons why people haven't watched movies.
00:04:38
I mean, there's a lot of movies I haven't watched that would probably shock so many people in my field.
00:04:43
For me to do a podcast with somebody who's more of a cultural critic, I would say about you.
00:04:49
I think that you're a writer. You're definitely a scholar of culture and gender.
00:04:55
And, you know, it's just going to be really interesting to do it with you because you're just so super smart.
00:05:00
Like, I mean, honestly, like you are way more accomplished than I am. I'm like going, oh, you've like written two books and you are, you know, really well known for your perspective and what you offer.
00:05:16
So it's going to be great. But the good the cool thing is that I'm not wearing pants right now.
00:05:20
So accomplished or not, I'm still a dirt bag. I think it's what it comes down to is that we can still be complete dirt bags.
00:05:28
Exactly. But being, you know, esteemed. Esteemed dirtbags would be a great second name for our podcast.
00:05:37
But that's also why we're doing this. We are we want to make make movies accessible to people and make people feel like, you know, if you've never seen this, then let's talk about it.
00:05:46
It's cool. You'll have ways to an accessible way to get into movies you might not have ever seen or heard of.
00:05:53
And we just want to help you build up your your library in that way and build the fun in your life because some of these are fun And we going to get into doing that by picking a different theme that we have come up with every week
00:06:07
The themes are going to be sort of informed by our experiences as women, our experiences as like moviegoers, and then just our life experiences.
00:06:17
And so, I mean, I want to stress that a lot of times you're going to come to the podcast and go,
00:06:22
oh, wait a minute, what about this movie? That's what the point is. Like we want we're not trying to be exhaustive. We're not.
00:06:27
These are basically like double features about specific themes that we think are like entertaining or funny or just sort of through lines between movies that we've seen over the years.
00:06:37
And like I said, we want to have that conversation with you. If there's something in the theme that you think is like a no brainer and you want to talk about it as something that means something to you, then definitely contact us.
00:06:48
That's what we want. And we want this to be like a conversation. So and it's also cool that we're not white or men.
00:06:56
We're two brown ladies. Welcome. White men dominate film podcast. Let's be real.
00:07:02
And we wanted to kind of disrupt that a little bit. And again, prove that films are for everyone.
00:07:07
Yeah, that's what we're doing. I'm so happy that we're at least getting together and talking about movies on this podcast,
00:07:14
because it's like, you know, right now, I won't tell you I'm I'm living with family.
00:07:20
I'm quarantining with family right now. And you talk about people that don't know a damn thing
00:07:29
about movies. Like they don't know a damn thing. And I'm not, again, I'm not trying to like paint
00:07:35
them as like, you know, oh man, what a, I'm not a snob. I'm like the opposite of a snob, but
00:07:40
they don't know shit. Like you're living with people who don't even speak your language,
00:07:45
basically yeah i mean i'm like my mom and dad have like seven dvds i think they're just there's
00:07:53
like seven dvds in a drawer and it's the most random shit it's like um you know euro trip
00:08:02
and then like dunkirk what like um yeah there's like a you know the nicholas cage scorsese movie
00:08:11
that was about the ambulance driver like that movie bringing out the dead is that what it's
00:08:15
called oh my gosh i mean i'm like i have no idea why the seven were chosen um and they just
00:08:22
i mean it's really really bad like but it's kind of like funny to me because obviously i'm like
00:08:29
i don't know how i was born from this ambivalence you know but it's um it's funny it allowed you to
00:08:36
go harder in the direction of figuring finding stuff out because it was both you know the 90s
00:08:42
where you had to there was no internet you had to find out stuff that you were interested in you had
00:08:46
to really dig deep but when you come from a background where you're like none of this is
00:08:50
even around me like i don't know any of this stuff then of course you go harder at it yeah and like
00:08:55
my like honestly like when it comes down to it my parents are like big cable not like they're into
00:09:01
cable movies i guess that's better than being in like cable news but they're they will watch
00:09:06
anything on like a tnt or like uh you know anything that's on like stars um you know they're just
00:09:13
really into like watching movies that are just randomly on like my dad watched cb4 the other day
00:09:18
and i was like kind of i was like that's awesome like what made you want to watch cb4 i mean do
00:09:24
you even know what cb4 is like parodying i mean it's so that is my favorite thing i've ever heard
00:09:31
because I've met your parents and that is darling. So we're going to have to get my dad on the CB4 episode, apparently.
00:09:36
Completely. He can talk about it. And I have kind of an opposite background, which we'll dig into as the podcast goes on.
00:09:43
But I was raised by maniacs, my grandparents. And my grandmother loves horror movies.
00:09:51
And she loves gore. She loves carnage. And so my granddad, when he died, she put his ashes on a shelf in her bedroom behind her Saw and Hostel DVDs.
00:10:02
So this bitch watches movies all day long and they are terrifying and disgusting.
00:10:10
And we're going to hear we might hear from her later. We'll occasionally call her up and get her her opinion on.
00:10:15
Oh, my God. I cannot wait. So basically, so the theme of this podcast and the way that we're introducing and talking to movies and being part of the film community.
00:10:23
is that we're each going to watch a movie every week. We're going to watch these two movies and present them to each other.
00:10:29
What's the theme this week? The theme this week is our favorite true crime films.
00:10:33
Oh, list a mile long. Yes. So these are movies that were based in part on actual crimes.
00:10:42
And, you know, again, like you said, it can be a very long list. But, you know, these are kind of our faves.
00:10:48
What did you watch for your true crime? So my movie this week is a movie from 1970, directed by a man named Leonard Castle.
00:10:55
It's called The Honeymoon Killers. Ray was a con man who made one mistake. He fell in love and took Martha along for the ride.
00:11:05
I can arrange a meeting with a very nice woman in New Orleans. There's no harm in writing to somebody who's so gentle and refined and whose sister is a nurse.
00:11:15
Ray and Martha could have been the honeymoon lovers, but Martha's insane jealousy turned them into the honeymoon killers.
00:11:24
So have you ever seen this movie before? No, I'd never seen it until we decided to talk about it.
00:11:29
And a lot of things stood out to me as pretty fantastic about it. A lot of themes we'll get into and talk about.
00:11:35
But I was really primarily struck by the lead actress of this film. So maybe you can tell us a little bit about why you chose this movie and who she is and what it's based on.
00:11:46
So, you know, this is one of this is one of actually my favorite films. I mean, you know, I have a lot, but this is one of them.
00:11:53
So the original story is based off of this couple who were called the Lonely Hearts Killers Their names are Martha Beck and Raymond Fernandez And they were essentially con artists where their whole con was that they relied on this Lonely Hearts Club which is a very old concept now
00:12:20
It's like OG Tinder. Oh, yeah. It was essentially where lonely women would write letters to find lonely men, and then they get paired up, and then they just wrote letters to each other.
00:12:34
And what's cool about Martha and Ray, at least in terms of the movie, and I believe in real life, is that they actually had a very vibrant letter-writing life together.
00:12:45
Like, they really fell in love through their words. Well, that's the whole that's one of the best sequences in the movie is they're sort of like writing letters to each other.
00:12:54
And there's kind of this buildup and intensity where, you know, at first they're kind of like, hey, how's it going?
00:12:58
And then they're like, I love you. I'm obsessed with you. I can't live without you.
00:13:01
So it becomes this whole like fevered letter writing exchange. So essentially, the movie was the first movie for Leonard Castle.
00:13:09
He wrote it initially. Then they went to find a director for it. And initially, the director was Martin Scorsese.
00:13:17
he lasted about two weeks he was apparently he was like spending too much time on the details
00:13:22
like he was like panning the riverbed or something for too long oh no yeah i mean he was basically an
00:13:28
artiste right so they were like uh-uh like we're spending too much money and too much time doing
00:13:32
this shit like we gotta get this we need to get to the murders yeah so they canned marty and then
00:13:37
they brought in leonard they're like well you wrote it you might as well direct it he had never
00:13:40
directed which first of all such a 70s move like that guy and then the two actors that
00:13:47
starred in it, Shirley Stoller and Tony Lobianco, this was their first film. So it's like everybody's
00:13:52
first time, even though Shirley and Tony had worked in the theater, they had never been on
00:13:57
film before. And the thing about Leonard Castle was that when he took over the direction of it,
00:14:03
he was basically like, Bonnie and Clyde had just come out in like 68. And this movie was
00:14:08
69, 70. So at the time, everybody was obsessed with, you know, Bonnie and Clyde and this idea
00:14:14
that like beautiful Warren Beatty and Faye Dunaway were these like hot, sexy murderers.
00:14:21
And Larry Castle's like, fuck that. Like, I don't want to show sexy, hot people.
00:14:28
I want to show the actual people who are real people who are not, you know, hot movie stars.
00:14:35
Like, we're going to get some real folks in here. Well, he had the perfect opportunity with this movie because Martha as a character is a mess.
00:14:45
And I mean, physically, like he showed that, like, he shot them in different angles where he could show, like, the flabby arms.
00:14:51
And like, he really showed, like, the reality of what it is to be an obsessive love.
00:14:58
Well, and like, Shirley Stoller is such an amazing actress. I think, honestly, I mean, she is my girl.
00:15:02
Like, I'm a big fan of her. She's been in a lot of great, interesting, weird films in her career.
00:15:08
Did a lot of character work. She's definitely a proto-nurse, Ratchet. Oh, yeah. She kind of has that look.
00:15:13
She's got the, like, she kind of has, like, a divine, like, she's, like, a very, like,
00:15:18
her eyebrows are really intense, and she just kind of has this, like, cult look to her.
00:15:24
Plus, the movie opens with her, like, yelling at people for having sex. So in the film, essentially, it kind of just cuts to it kind of removes a little bit of the backstory between Martha and Ray, like individually about the Ray character doesn't have like the thing where he had come from Spain and left his family to become a con artist.
00:15:49
And it doesn't talk about Martha having kids or anything like that. So and they lived in different states.
00:15:53
Yeah. So essentially in the film, Martha is a nurse and she's living in Florida and she lives with her elderly mother.
00:16:02
And she's just kind of like angsty and mean and like yelling at people at her job.
00:16:08
And she doesn't seem happy. I guess that's what they're trying to communicate. And not only lives with her mother, sleeps in a bedroom with her mother.
00:16:14
Yeah. They have twin. The twin bed situation of the 40s and 50s, I think, is the reason a lot of murders happened.
00:16:20
because I could not. It was so tense to watch that relationship simply because you knew they then had to lay down
00:16:26
next to each other at night. Well, I mean, listen, that is an old school thing. I mean, I remember watching episodes of the Golden Girls
00:16:34
where Sophia and Dorothy slept in the same bed and I was like, oh, damn. Like, I love my mom, but unless we're on vacation together
00:16:43
and I ain't trying to sleep in the same bed because I need my space. And especially at that moment where she was feeling like,
00:16:49
you know lonely and it was basically like oh i live with my mom and i sleep in the same room
00:16:54
with my mom like i have no life so she's you know obviously like kind of feeling some type
00:16:58
of way about it but like essentially what happens is is that her friend in the film who is played by
00:17:04
doris roberts from uh everybody loves raymond as a lark decides that she's gonna send martha
00:17:13
like she's gonna sign Martha up for a lonely hearts club and um does and Martha is like oh
00:17:21
shit why did you do this I'm not looking for this but then eventually she gets in touch with
00:17:26
Ray and Ray is writing letters to her and then that's when you see the sequence of the two of
00:17:30
them kind of connecting writing letters to each other etc and he's a Lothario right off the bat
00:17:35
like he's got pictures of women on his piano all the women he's wooed like he's you you get that
00:17:39
So solidly that he is. He is the classic Latin lover trope where he's, you know, kind of with his shirt open in his chest hair hanging out and he's real sexy.
00:17:48
So they finally meet in real life. He comes down to Florida and they spend you know a couple of days together and he wooing both her and her mother I have to say And then he leaves and Martha is despondent So he goes back to New York and then he writes her kind of like a dear Jane letter
00:18:08
That's just like, I like you, but it ain't going to happen. And of course, she flips the fuck out.
00:18:14
Threatens suicide immediately. Threatens suicide. Gets Doris Roberts to call him and be like, can you tell him I'm about to kill myself?
00:18:21
Because I just really want him. Like, I want to date him. That was such a creepy scene where she was just sitting on the bed, like coaching her friend to do this dirty work of convincing this man that she was about to kill herself for him.
00:18:33
That was like next level. Like we've we've all I feel like we can all say we've threatened to kill ourselves over a guy.
00:18:40
But when I get my friend involved like that is next level psychopathic. Yeah, I mean, it is tantamount to like, you know, posting like a thoughty picture of yourself on Instagram and be like, you know, like, you know, exactly.
00:18:52
Pay attention to me. guy that I want to date. But basically, she works. Well, it worked in this case. All right, fine.
00:19:01
Come to New York. So he's like, here's the deal. I con lonely, middle aged women for money.
00:19:07
Maybe you maybe not. I tried it with you. And apparently it didn't work. Because now you're
00:19:13
here. And this is who I am. And I love that she was just like, you know what? Solid. She's like,
00:19:19
Fuck yeah. Let's do it together. She's like, I don't care. And he's like, what? She sees me.
00:19:25
I guess, you know, this is meant to be or whatever. And that is something about this movie that hit me right away as an overarching theme is this idea of obsessiveness.
00:19:34
And I don't think it came through in the movie very strongly that he was obsessed with her.
00:19:39
Because I think in real life he was. But it definitely came through from her that she was willing to do anything for this particular man.
00:19:47
Well, I think that that's the theme of the film. Yeah. Is that the film is about lonely women.
00:19:57
Right. And lonely women who are willing to just fucking go there for companionship.
00:20:03
She was like, like, OK, like, I'm down with this and I will be not only that, but I will be your accomplice and I will help you swindle these women, even though I was potentially a victim of yours.
00:20:16
Girl on girl crime. Right. So she's like, so then eventually she's like, I'm on board.
00:20:22
Let me go back down to Florida, get my mom in a nursing home so I don't have to deal with her anymore.
00:20:26
I've already drugged her so we could have sex. P.S. I've already sleeping pilled her to the max.
00:20:31
And I'm a nurse. I'm an expert at drugging people. So that's and then, of course, the mother is like, you know, you're leaving me to be happy.
00:20:38
And that's, you know, it's very complicated. But that was also a different time. And something that struck me is that it was expected for women to first give up their lives for men and then give up their lives for family in every capacity.
00:20:52
So her mom was like legit hanging out a window like, I can't believe you're leaving me, like could not be laying on a thicker guilt trip.
00:20:59
Yeah. And she's like, in order for me to live my life, I have to marry a con man and become a murderer.
00:21:05
so eventually what happens is is that she leaves mom and then she starts going on the road
00:21:11
with ray and you know ray is continuing to you know do his scam which is that he's answering
00:21:17
his letters from these lonely old women you know who are writing in and i have to say like
00:21:22
their victims during this entire section of the film are their tip they're like what i would
00:21:28
consider kind of like that middle america they're all like middle-aged white women who are
00:21:35
into Jesus and the United States and they are patriotic and they're just kind of like
00:21:41
there's these are women who are so happy that they will sing the national anthem in the bathtub
00:21:47
which was something that rocked me more than the murders when I saw that bitch in that tub
00:21:53
scrubbing her back and singing about the purple mountains majesty I was like what is actually
00:21:58
happening right now and I was like I don't even know if I've been ever the I don't know I don't
00:22:02
think i've ever been that happy where i'm like singing the national anthem ever yeah much less
00:22:07
in a tub or a shower that's true that's not the height of happiness for me uh and that's also not
00:22:11
like the first song i go to whenever i'm just like in the shower or whatever like a nat king
00:22:16
cole or so but anyway the as you know so what happens is is that like as this these scams are
00:22:22
unfolding like she's like she's posing as his sister so they're going to these different towns
00:22:28
meeting up with these lonely women. And the vibe is that he's just going to like romance them until they sign their insurance
00:22:36
checks or they give them to give them cash from their bank accounts. And then he's gone or they're gone.
00:22:43
So while this is happening, like Martha is going, all right, I know I was on board with
00:22:48
this, but man, it is hard to see the dude that I love and would have killed myself for
00:22:53
be with other women. And I know that he's telling me, oh, I don't mean nothing to me.
00:22:57
And I'm not having sex with them. even though he's having sex with them, like some of them.
00:23:01
And she is just slowly becoming unglued. Yeah. And, you know, as I'm reading the actual crime, it seemed like that was happening, too.
00:23:12
But I think for the movie purposes, it became this whole like, what's going to happen when
00:23:17
Martha finally flips the fuck out on the situation that she's in now, where she's basically
00:23:22
told herself, well, in order to be with this guy, then I'm going to have to run this scam
00:23:25
and pretend to be not in love with him. And there's a scene, my favorite scene, and actually the scene that one of the two scenes that Martin Scorsese actually shot, which is the scene at the lake where he's with one of his new women.
00:23:41
And like they're both in these bathing suits, you know, like Tony Lo Bianco is like a cut, little cut Italian guy with these tiny shorts.
00:23:51
And he's got hair everywhere and he's just doing pushups on the banks of the river and shit like, you know.
00:23:56
And then his new woman, the woman from the services like she's like an older woman but she's very you know she's attractive and fit
00:24:04
and she's wearing this bathing suit and then you see martha sitting there in a robe because lord
00:24:11
knows it's vulnerable to be in a bathing suit especially when at her size where she was feeling
00:24:19
like kind of not right about the way she looked and then you're watching your man cavorting with
00:24:26
some other woman in a bathing suit and they're in the river, like, you know, splashing each
00:24:31
other. And she's just like losing it. Like her eyes, you know, whatever. And it's like, there's that moment where I was like, man, is there anything lonelier
00:24:38
than that? Like, is there anything lonelier than watching like your crush or your guy hanging out with
00:24:44
some other girl in bathing suits? Yeah. And then you are having in a bathing suit and you don't want to be in a bathing suit.
00:24:50
So, well, she did the next natural thing, which is to threaten to drown herself.
00:24:54
And then Ray, you know, it's Ray's time. He has to go get her. And, you know, I think at that moment you really realize, OK, well, maybe they are in it together.
00:25:04
Because at first I was kind of like, oh, he's taking this woman for a ride again.
00:25:08
But then I'm like, no, he cares. Right. And if anything, he cares because she is on to him and will bust his ass for running these scams.
00:25:19
Like they're in it together now. There's no turning back. But then she's the one who kind of goes to the murder moment, right?
00:25:24
Like, she's the one who kind of goes to, like, I'm going to put this lady on a bus and give her pills and get her out of our life.
00:25:32
And I don't care what happens to her. And that was kind of a sadness that I was feeling in this movie, which is that it's so sad that these women were being swindled so much.
00:25:43
And all they really wanted was attention and care and love. Like, that was sad. Yeah, I mean, this is kind of like, I mean, this is probably what makes the movie kind of a good movie to me.
00:25:52
And what makes it emotional is because it's like, you know, ultimately, this is a story about a woman who is just desperate for connection.
00:26:02
And she basically just like, we'll do it at any cost. And, you know, and the weird thing about this movie is that there is kind of like no one to root for at the end of the day.
00:26:13
Because eventually she becomes completely complicit. Like, even though you're like, OK, I understand why she's doing this.
00:26:19
She's doing it because she's fucked up about love. Right. But at the same time, you're like, no, you drowned a kid.
00:26:26
Yeah. And then, you know, you hit a lady with a hammer and he drowned her kid. And like, so you're in it.
00:26:33
And like, whatever mental jump that you had to take to go there makes you not likable.
00:26:39
Right. But I also think that that is interesting that she's not likable because there's no happy ending to any of this.
00:26:45
It's like, you know, these in real life, these people were convicted of these murders and then they died in the electric chair.
00:26:51
They were, you know, killed for their crimes. Yeah. So that's the thing is that there is no happy ending.
00:26:59
And, you know, that's what I think is great about the film is that it doesn't pretend to be happy.
00:27:03
It's just like, oh, yeah, they are as bad as they are. And there is no love. Like, it's just like they're horrible people.
00:27:12
And at the end. It also kind of feels like a very nice point of departure from a lot of true crime films, because they're not trying.
00:27:19
I don't even feel like the victims were that sympathetic in a lot of ways. Like, I don't think they deserve to die.
00:27:23
But I think that some of them were a little annoying and a little needy and a little cloying and a little bit much.
00:27:30
So I can see how, again, the representation of that in film is that this is something to be wary of as a woman.
00:27:36
Like, don't be too much because a man might kill you. Well, yeah, that's it's another interesting part of it, for sure, because, you know, it is sort of like you wonder.
00:27:45
I mean, there is a absolute stereotype of like a lonely middle aged spinster who is annoying and is who and is not, you know, soft and gentle.
00:27:57
And, you know, they're weird and kooky. None of these women seem to be culturally acceptable.
00:28:03
Right. So like if these women had existed now, it would have been completely fine for them to be on their own, to not have a dude, to like live their own life.
00:28:10
They wouldn't have to have the twin bed situation with their moms. Like, but this they were not culturally acceptable within the moment, you know, because they wanted too much or they wanted something different.
00:28:18
And that's interesting to me from a true crime perspective, for sure. Yeah. But, you know, as a movie, I mean, it's great.
00:28:25
Like, I think it's a gem. Honestly, I feel like it doesn't get talked about enough.
00:28:29
It's on Criterion Collection. So there's a really great, you know, copy of it out there.
00:28:36
And there's lots of great extras on that. I think it's on Blu-ray. But, you know, it's such a great film.
00:28:42
And, again, it's very unique in the sense that it was made in a certain time. It was made by, like, it was the first films for pretty much everybody involved.
00:28:50
And it, you know, really is kind of like a gritty, raw, sort of fucked up movie.
00:28:57
It's savage. It's one of those movies that I kind of, I want, even though I'm just seeing it now for the first time at 42, I want young women to watch this movie and to realize that, again, not taking the leap into murder, but to realize that, you know, your feelings are valid and it's hard to date.
00:29:13
It's hard to be out in the world and it's hard to want things. And like, it's hard to have these emotions, but to kind of see this real ornery woman.
00:29:21
I think it's important foundationally for girls to see that, like to see complicated, messy women.
00:29:28
well speaking of complicated messy women yeah and speaking of obsession let's talk about your
00:29:37
movie for this week my movie this week is heavenly creatures directed by peter jackson they were two
00:29:42
young girls living in a world of imagination i'm going to the fourth world it's an absolute
00:29:50
paradise of music art and pure enjoyment. What they shared was a secret Your daughters daughters in behaving in a rather disturbed manner what she done i think i going crazy the crime that shocked the nation people die
00:30:11
every day we the best people fight against all obstacles she's uncontrollable So this movie came out in 1994, directed by Peter Jackson.
00:30:22
It was based on a real life case that happened in Christchurch, New Zealand. It's the Parker Hume murder.
00:30:31
And the details of the case is that 16 year old Pauline Parker and her 15 year old bestie,
00:30:39
Juliet Hume, basically conspired to kill her mom when they couldn't, when they found
00:30:45
out Juliet's family was moving and would be separating them from each other. And they
00:30:52
succeeded in doing that. They put a brick in a stocking and bashed her mom in the head
00:30:58
on a walk and then ran out into the street and kind of got attention. And they were hoping
00:31:04
it would be seen as an accident that they could write off and then they could be together
00:31:08
and run to Hollywood and become these famous movie actresses. Because again, they are teenagers.
00:31:13
but they legitimately murdered her mom. So what ended up happening is that both of them were found guilty.
00:31:23
They both served a five-year sentence, but a condition of their release was that they were ordered
00:31:28
to never be in contact with each other again, which seems like something I definitely want to talk about.
00:31:34
It seems almost impossible. I know, but it's... In a weird way. The reason this movie comes across to me is so romantic,
00:31:41
And it does stick to the real story pretty closely, even though Juliet has since said that they didn't have a sexual relationship.
00:31:49
And that was definitely part of the movie. But what really gets to me about this and what I thought matched with our theme really well is that it's not just a true crime.
00:31:58
It's a true crime about a romantic relationship in a different way. Sure. It's not purely sexual.
00:32:03
It's not purely, you know, it's not a purely sexual relationship, but it's still a very deeply romantic relationship.
00:32:10
And it's based in the kind of frenzy that a lot of us feel as young women when we're forming friendships.
00:32:19
You know, some of them are very romantic, even again, if they never become sexual.
00:32:24
So I think that there is something to be said about the fact that they get together, but then also how they bond is very interesting.
00:32:32
Because this is, again, 1950s Christchurch, New Zealand, all-girls school. They're both kind of precocious in different ways.
00:32:40
And I think that Pauline is a little more insular with her precociousness. And Juliet's very outspoken.
00:32:45
Which I feel like has to do with class. But that's just me. Well, because it is a very classist movie.
00:32:50
It's a class-based movie. You've got Juliet and her grand mansion and her swatting around the fields with her long dresses.
00:32:58
And then you've got Pauline living in the middle of the city with her family. And they run a boarding house to make ends meet.
00:33:04
And her dad works as like a fishmonger. so it is very classed as well for sure um but there was something about not just the frenzy so
00:33:11
they they kind of bond over this idea uh or the knowledge that they're both sick so they're both
00:33:17
sitting out in gym class and are asking each other why and basically juliet has struggled
00:33:22
with tuberculosis paulina struggled with osteomyelitis which is like a bone bone sickness
00:33:26
and one of the best lines in this movie um so we've got first of all it's the actresses are
00:33:32
incredible. You've got Melanie Linsky, very young, but like clearly showing some of the
00:33:37
incredible range that she has to this day. And this was Kate Winslet's first movie.
00:33:41
She'd done television before this, but never done film. So we've got these kind of ingenues,
00:33:45
you know, and they're kind of, so they're bonding over this sickness connection that
00:33:52
they have. And they're kind of, they're sitting on this bench and Kate Winslet says, after
00:34:00
they discover what each of their illnesses are. Kate Winslet says, all the best people have bad
00:34:06
chests and bone diseases, which is just such an incredible way to think about like drawing power
00:34:13
from your biggest flaw. Like that would definitely be on some Instagram quote. That is for sure
00:34:18
hilarious to me that like they bond in this way and then they take off. They're just inseparable
00:34:24
from day one so there's a frenzy to this but there's also such an incredible fantasy life
00:34:31
and they're very childlike in this way where their fantasy life with each other is built
00:34:37
in you know this world where mario lonza is serenading them mario lonza i gotta tell you like like it's so funny because i'm like i it's this weird moment like where you
00:34:50
watch like 40s usually 40s and 50s movies like pre-rock and roll almost where you're like oh
00:34:57
people fucked with mario lanza like teen teenagers went crazy for mario lanza there's a lot of
00:35:04
rending of garments yeah like they're like running around town like kissing posters of mario lanza
00:35:09
and i'm kind of like damn that is fucking crazy he's just a normal dude like he just looks like
00:35:13
he looks like a normal guy listen no disrespect to mr lanza but like his move like we play you know
00:35:20
I've seen a lot of his films in the past, and it's like a lot of like, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
00:35:27
And I'm like, wow, it's a lot. Like, if you have to watch more than one in a row, it's a lot.
00:35:32
But they loved it. They were sprung. They were sprung on it. Like running through the woods, tearing their clothes off, sprung.
00:35:38
And so there is, again, this connection in both of these films to this idea of being possessive of each other versus being possessed by each other.
00:35:49
And there definitely this moment in Heavenly Creatures that goes from you know we together everything is great we created this entire fantasy world together we can exist outside of the boundaries of what we know And then they they torn apart and it becomes very quickly goes from I want to die to I want to kill
00:36:09
Wow. And that is interesting to me. Well, OK, so there the whole idea is that they're just sort of like obsessed with being around each other.
00:36:17
And it becomes clear like there's a part of the film where Kate Winslet's character.
00:36:23
because here's the other thing that I found really heartbreaking about the two of them is because
00:36:26
they absolutely trauma bonded because of their sicknesses right and Kate Winslet's character in
00:36:32
particular I think because she was rich and had rich parents they were the types that were like
00:36:38
you're sick we're gonna send you away yeah to like a tropical environment so you can get over your
00:36:43
whatever and then we'll just leave you there they kept saying that like well we're just gonna like
00:36:48
it's good for your health it's good for your health it's good for your health and it's like
00:36:51
well being a negligent parent is not good for my health so let's start at the foundation of that
00:36:56
and i know that that was a thing a lot more than it is now i mean now you can't even imagine that
00:37:01
kind of stuff it's like but you know back in the days where like you had tuberculosis like that
00:37:05
where they're like you're going to an asylum and we're leaving you there like until for months
00:37:11
until you get better so she was like that's lonely she was very she was lonely and i think that's why
00:37:17
And the two of them being sick like that, I think, is what caused them to overinvest in each other.
00:37:23
So they get to the point where Kate Winslet's character actually does get TB and essentially needs to recover.
00:37:31
And there's this whole chain of events where her father has to walk away from his job and then they get divorced.
00:37:38
And basically she's like, you're going to like the families that you're moving to South Africa because you need to get for your health.
00:37:46
But also we don't want to deal with you. Well, and also by that point, it was very much the parents had stepped in and were like, this friendship is too much.
00:37:53
Oh, yeah. By that time, the parents were like, they are lesbians. We need to handle it in the 1950s way that we handle lesbians.
00:38:01
Which is like you're going to Africa. Yeah. Like I'm sending this white girl to Africa.
00:38:06
That's how they dealt with her being a lesbian. We will eventually give you electroshock treatment because we think that homosexuality is a disease.
00:38:15
But the parents were kind of the catalyst for the kind of extreme trauma coming to the surface, I think, which is that they were fine when they were together.
00:38:26
It was hard for Pauline when Juliet was gone getting this treatment for tuberculosis for a few months.
00:38:32
But they still had a friendship. They were writing letters. They still had their fantasy life.
00:38:36
So it was a threat of being permanently dislodged from each other that brought this kind of madness to the surface, more for Pauline than it did for Juliet.
00:38:43
Juliet was very upset, but Pauline was instantly just like, the way through this is to kill my mom because she's the obstacle here.
00:38:51
Right, because the parenting styles, I feel like, are different. Also, maybe class-based.
00:38:56
It's that, you know, the Kate Winslet character's parents are like, you can do whatever the fuck you want.
00:39:03
In fact, we don't even want to see you. we're sending you away to other countries.
00:39:06
Whereas Melanie Nolinsky's parents were like hardcore. I want to know where you are at all times.
00:39:12
Like, you know, you live in our house. She couldn't even get a passport because they wouldn't sign for it.
00:39:16
She was really stuck. So I think that it made sense to me that she would go to this,
00:39:20
this murder place, but she felt like the mom was too overbearing and, um, you know,
00:39:24
she was brooding. I think she was normally, I think in her real life, she was brooding.
00:39:29
Cause you said that you saw the real life photographs of her and she looked pissed off. Yeah, it's kind
00:39:36
of incredible. The attention to detail in this movie is fantastic. Because there is a photo of Pauline
00:39:42
Parker, a school photo, where everyone's kind of, you know, looking at the camera and
00:39:46
smiling in their school uniforms, and she is like, arms crossed, head down, hair frizzed, scowling.
00:39:52
Like, she is not here for any part of it. And they got that so right. And I think,
00:39:55
you know, Kate Winslet obviously went on to have this incredibly huge Oscar winning career, but Melanie Linsky
00:40:01
is incredible in this movie. Pauline's my girl let's get serious I did like a dark haired
00:40:07
frizzy ass moppy head of hair and then the photo where she just like the whole school's
00:40:14
looking up smiling she's like boom like look down the ground she's like that's a girl off to my own heart
00:40:19
I love it and the movie starts that way everyone's singing you know closer walk with thee and singing their songs and she's
00:40:26
just like staring she's the goth one for sure I love it but I think there is something to be said about the fear of you know female sexuality
00:40:38
in this movie and the fear of you know women coming together and young girls especially people
00:40:43
freak out when young girls figure out their emotional life yeah and this movie was again
00:40:49
because it's directed by a dude by Peter Jackson was even more impressive to me for that I think so
00:40:55
too actually I mean not to say that I don't think Peter Jackson is a sensitive person or or would
00:41:00
understand the nuance of women, but I think that he really nailed it. Like he really figured out a way to communicate their kind of mutual obsession with each other
00:41:12
without making it some weird, like sexy. Yeah. Teen lesbian thing. You know what I mean?
00:41:18
I just feel like. Like not another teen lesbian movie style of comedy. Well, you know, it's like a man telling a story of these two women, I think could be
00:41:27
certainly go in that direction. Absolutely. But he really did a great job. And, you know, there's so much tenderness there.
00:41:34
And I think that because maybe part of it is that the murder is such a small facet of the movie.
00:41:38
Yeah. That it's really about building up the fantasy. And it's really about building up what world they were living in.
00:41:44
I thought he tapped into that really well. Yeah. And they were doing this thing where they were kind of like writing this story throughout the film.
00:41:50
Like you know they were obviously very interested in like writing and literature and history and then they were kind of like acting out the relationship between their two characters in their story which is like a man and a woman and they kind of like pretending to be the
00:42:06
the couple yeah and kind of you know working that out for themselves which i thought was really
00:42:12
interesting it was like og fan fiction about each other yeah like they were the actors in their own
00:42:17
fan fiction or something it was kind of amazing yeah and it's pretty cool and it's definitely
00:42:23
I don't know I think as far as true crime goes we need more true crime movies about women who
00:42:29
kill independent of men yeah and we also need more in-depth looks at stuff I mean I remember
00:42:35
being a teenager and feeling like I could have committed a murder when I was a teenager
00:42:38
yeah I had I could have had a list if any one of the kids in the hall had been like you should
00:42:43
kill that I'd be like yeah you got it yeah you're so keyed up at that age you know what I mean and
00:42:48
And it's like, and also, too, like, I remember, like, I didn't. So I saw this movie before we were recording.
00:42:55
I had seen maybe when I was in college. And it holds up so well. And it's such a fucking good movie.
00:43:05
And I was, like, really surprised. Because, you know, it's hidden differently now that I'm an adult.
00:43:10
Exactly. You know what I mean? Where I'm like, oh, yeah, this is different. Like, if I had watched this when I was a kid, I would have been like, oh, my God.
00:43:16
Like, this is my life. Nobody can ever tell me what to do. I know. It's like, yeah, of course they did.
00:43:22
Of course they did all this stuff. And, you know, they're not she's not getting on that ship.
00:43:26
Like, I got to do something about this. But, you know, now I'm like, I'm just I appreciate that it is like a glimpse into that type of relationship that beavered, you know, like your friends or everything when you're that age.
00:43:41
I mean, any point of connection matters more than any point of connection matters.
00:43:45
Yeah, absolutely. I'm so glad you picked that movie. That's such a good one. I know.
00:43:49
I think this is a good mix. It's like different types of romance, different types of obsession and obsessiveness, but
00:43:55
like definitely true crime. People I heard doing some crimes. They are doing those true crimes.
00:44:00
Leaving some leather gloves, murdering people with a brick. Also, please tell me, what was the caliber of the pantyhose that they had back then that
00:44:08
they could put a brick in it? Because if I look at a pair of pantyhose right now, I get to run.
00:44:12
Yeah. I was thinking that too. I was like, that's some hardcore like post-World War II pantyhose.
00:44:17
and that's some shit. It's like some pure silk and like, I don't know. Didn't come from the eggs.
00:44:22
Did not come from the market. There was no legs, eggs, pantyhose. This was like the hardcore stuff that like they, you know,
00:44:31
when the war happened, like they ran out of or something because they make ships out of it or some shit.
00:44:35
I don't know. I don't know history, folks. So you're going to have to Google that.
00:44:40
But no matter what. Don't hold me to this pantyhose thing. Spanx should be on this tip.
00:44:44
Like Spank should be advertising with a brick inside of a barrel. I buy him in a heartbeat.
00:44:50
Exactly. And as always, you know, if you want to talk to us about your favorite true crime films or any film, really, you can email us.
00:44:56
I saw what you did pod at gmail.com. And I'd love to hear from you. We will read it and we will recommend that you do not kill your mother.
00:45:04
We will recommend that you don't kill anyone. That's right. So we've got a little time at the end where we'd like to kind of throw in a third section.
00:45:11
It's always going to kind of rotate. So one week we're going to probably have some audience participation moments.
00:45:17
So, you know, for example, if you have questions about movies, if you just have things that you want to talk about, if you want to talk about, you know, Robert Redford's chest hair, by all means, you should email us and we'll be reading letters.
00:45:31
We'll be taking questions, that kind of thing. Also, if you want to find us on Instagram and Twitter, we're at at I saw pod.
00:45:39
And that's kind of just I, the letter, saw, S-A-W-P-O-D. So what we're going to talk about right now is something that is like really.
00:45:50
So I have to get back to what my mom was doing the other night. My parents famously have no taste in movies.
00:45:58
But my mom has suddenly like been watching a lot of horror. You know, my mom is an older lady, like, you know, close to 70.
00:46:06
And all of a sudden I come in the room and she's watching It Chapter 2. And I'm like, what are you talking about?
00:46:12
She's never seen It 1. She doesn't even know anything by Stephen King. So I'm a little confused by this.
00:46:17
And I just was like sitting there thinking, I almost texted you, Danielle, because I was like, what is up with like older women getting into horror movies?
00:46:26
And it was something that I wanted to ask you because your grandma is like famously into horror.
00:46:33
And I was hoping you could like tell people about that because it's awesome. She is.
00:46:37
She's a known maniac. I think there is some kind of connection between the frustration women must feel and must have felt throughout the decades and not having outlets for those feelings.
00:46:52
So just watching people get murked kind of became like the thing that made them feel good.
00:46:58
My own theories. All the years of being repressed now, they just want to see murders happen.
00:47:06
Yeah. They're like, how about you just kill some people so I can relax? can i see one murder so i can go to bed
00:47:13
but there is something to it my grandma well she's told me that you know she she's loved horror films since she was a little kid and she always loved you know like the creature
00:47:25
from the black lagoon and kind of all the old school ones but it has intensified as she's gotten
00:47:31
older you you would think that it would be something that kind of hits a peak but my grandma
00:47:37
has seen audition i have not seen oh my god she watches the walking dead every sunday when it's on
00:47:45
like the new seasons are on she has walking dead t-shirts she has her whole arsenal of movies in
00:47:52
her house are all horror films and she just she loves it and she and the thing that is the
00:48:00
bizarre is that she laughs her ass off at them. She delights in horror movies. And so I occasionally
00:48:06
reach out and kind of ask her, you know, some thoughts about that. And we're lucky enough that
00:48:13
you recorded some of it. Yeah, I still I mean, we still talk about it routinely. And I will
00:48:19
occasionally come come through with some recordings of my grandma. This one is from a few years ago,
00:48:25
where I basically was just having a conversation with her about why horror? Why?
00:48:31
And why use it as a tool of instruction for children? Why did you raise us with horror movies?
00:48:38
Will you play that right now, please? Yes. Let's listen to my grandma's input on these films.
00:48:45
Do you remember making me watch Halloween? Yeah, that was good. It was not good.
00:48:50
It was scary. And I used to tell you, kids, this is just a movie. You think I understood that when I was five years old?
00:48:58
I don't care. If I was going to watch it, you were going to watch it. And you all were terrified.
00:49:07
Yeah, look, you are cracking up right now saying how terrified we were as kids to watch horror movies.
00:49:14
My kids grew up on that barbie today. He loves those things. Wait, you are telling me that having kids watch horror movies is a great tool of parenting?
00:49:24
It certainly is. It'll make them think first about doing a lot of things they want to do because they think of that picture.
00:49:33
What's in it? Yeah that makes you think about walking in the woods going home by herself Did your mama tell you to walk in those woods No Get the hell out of those woods I can believe you think that having kids watch horror movies is a good tool of training
00:49:55
It certainly is. Make you think. Oh my God, grab it. Is there something wrong with you?
00:50:02
Uh-uh. It's just like those horror movies that show now these crazy women running.
00:50:08
They always show women jogging by themselves in the park on Pats. Pats, and you don't know who's standing here or there.
00:50:21
That's why so many, it's a shame. It's a damn shame. It's your body. Nobody should touch you but you and who you want.
00:50:29
You understand? But right now, you read about in the paper, some woman got raped here or there.
00:50:36
What the hell is wrong with her? Look at a horror movie. I bet you carry a knife with her.
00:50:42
What the hell? Everywhere you go, carry a little secret knife right there. And it's on the cutting stone.
00:50:52
Taking something that's yours. No, I'm telling you, sometimes it helps. So, but the thing is, is like women shouldn't feel that they have to run with knives.
00:51:04
We should be teaching men that they shouldn't rape people. I don't care. That's not the world today.
00:51:11
What you think they should do or shouldn't do, that's not the world today. Carry a knife cut his throat Let him think about being cut up before he even put his hands on you i not kidding grab a knife cut his throat i mean it like
00:51:29
i that needs to be on a t-shirt just general in general but like our first t-shirt i yeah i love your grandma like i was i was raised by her
00:51:45
Let's just make sure that that is part of the conversation. This is the person who raised me.
00:51:52
And this is the advice she gave me regularly. I mean, you can't ask for anything better than that.
00:51:58
Truly. You truly can't. I mean, it's like she's like, I love that. She's just so emphatic about, you know, her beliefs.
00:52:07
And she's not wrong. She's not wrong. She raised she wanted to raise the kind of woman who would take no shit and would not be fearful in this world.
00:52:18
And she succeeded in that. But she did it in the weirdest fucking way possible. Thank you, Daniel's grandma, for making Daniel.
00:52:28
But promise me you have more clips and we'll that we'll do this every so often. And you'll have like other grandma's nuggets of wisdom to bring horror wise or not.
00:52:40
I just want to hear her more. So I definitely have I have some recordings and I will continue to record her with her permission.
00:52:48
But yeah, she's she she comes up with this stuff all day, every day. Last week she was telling us that she wanted I was FaceTiming with my brother and she told us she wanted a full sleeve tattoo So it just never ends It never ends And I will catch as much of it as possible May we all try to get on your grandma level
00:53:07
Email address is I saw what you did pod at gmail.com. You can also find us on Twitter and
00:53:13
Instagram at I saw pod. So that's I S A W P O D. And then next week, we're going to
00:53:21
why don't we let's give them the let's give them the movies and let them guess the themes you can
00:53:25
you can tweet at us or Instagram or what have you, but we'll give you the movies and then you guess what the theme is going to be.
00:53:32
Me Without You from 2001 and Walking and Talking from 1996. What's our theme? What's our theme? What's our theme?
00:53:41
Go ahead and guess. Go ahead and guess. Excellent. This has been an Exactly Right production.
00:53:53
Our producer is Lauren Elizabeth Brown. Our engineer is Katie Levine. Our social media assistant is Taryn Matza.
00:53:59
Our theme songs by Tom Bry Fogel. Artwork by Garrett Ross. Our executive producers are Georgia Hardstark, Karen Kilgarith, and Danielle Kramer.
00:54:07
You can follow us on Instagram and Twitter at I Saw Pod. And please listen, subscribe, or leave us a review on Apple Podcasts, Stitcher, or wherever you listen.
00:54:25
you