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00:02:22
Hey, what's up, Kansas City? I keep meaning to practice that before we come out.
00:02:46
I know. I'm so bad at it. These days, I'm doing it where it sounds like I'm being kind of like,
00:02:51
I'm insinuating something. I don't know. Could be anything. I'm like, I know you guys did something bad.
00:03:01
Like, what's up, Kansas City? I don't know if that's right. We know the bad things you've done.
00:03:08
We've been studying them and researching them poorly for days. Hours, even. Cutting, pasting, wikipeding the fuck out of things.
00:03:21
That's all true. Sorry, but this is kind of a big theater. I love it. Yeah. And you're right here.
00:03:32
I know. Like, you're right here. I feel like they added a row, and you guys are just, like, in the back of the plane.
00:03:38
I love it in your fucking faces. You brought your own chairs. You're like, um, we're with the painting company.
00:03:44
We're just going to be one moment. 25 folding chairs. Second row's livid. That'd be awesome.
00:03:55
They brought the rug. They're the rug company. Oh my God, thank you so much. This is a gorgeous piece.
00:04:02
So nice. Oh, I didn't read. It's the history of Missouri right on this road. It starts over here with the founding of the state.
00:04:13
You know the year it was and why. You remember. You don't want to go over it again.
00:04:21
This is not a history lesson because we don't have dates and places. We have nothing to offer you but murder.
00:04:35
I'm sorry, I don't have my glasses on. Is there a bride sitting in the audience?
00:04:41
Please stand up for one second. She has a, it's a beautiful bride and it says the husband did it on her pen.
00:04:51
Oh, shit. Are we going into a cosplay area we've never been in before? Or what I'd like to think is that you just got married
00:05:01
and then right after the ceremony, you're like, I'm going to be back in two and a half hours.
00:05:06
Is it your bachelorette party? I got married two months ago. Oh. Get out of here.
00:05:11
Two months ago. Two months? Your day is over, girl. Now you're just a wife. hey wait a minute
00:05:22
why I was representing I made Vince go to the car because I lost my bra and I was like babe can you go check my bra
00:05:32
and then I was like is this a tour manager job or is this a husband job because if you went and said go get my bra
00:05:38
he could take me to court it's not allowed it's simply not allowed also that's funny because
00:05:46
that's something that happens to you in real life. And that's something that would happen to me
00:05:50
in a terrible nightmare. Where like in the middle of about, I about to go on stage and I like I not wearing a bra Fuck This show cannot go on See if I not wearing a bra I look like a little boy
00:06:06
And so it's not like, I need a bra to, I don't know, it's just a different mindset.
00:06:11
It's more of a presentational thing as opposed to holding back the tide. Exactly.
00:06:16
Yeah. Yes. Because last night, this has been a bra issue weekend for me. So this dress, let me tell you about it.
00:06:24
It's made by... Take a walk, take a walk so all the people can see it. That's how I walk.
00:06:33
Georgia's invented a new way of modeling, and I think it works. I think it's fierce, as they say.
00:06:40
Just armpits. Armpits out. All of her fashions are armpit-based. But sorry, I interrupted you.
00:06:46
I wish you would. This is by Karen's favorite poet and feminist, Jessica Simpson.
00:06:53
Yes. She is a leader and a visionary. Get behind her. That's right. 100% of her proceeds from this dress that I didn't buy go to Jessica Simpson.
00:07:07
The Jessica Simpson Foundation that teaches her about Star Kissed Tuna. Remember?
00:07:16
Remember that old thing from 97 years ago? That's what you're going to get here.
00:07:23
Old references. Just like... Old, like, VH1 reality show references. Hold on to your hats.
00:07:31
From a better place in time. Yeah. And, oh, yeah, so she makes these dresses, and it's for people with boobs.
00:07:38
Even if it's, like, a small dress for people who are smaller that don't have boobs,
00:07:42
she's just like, I bet everyone has them. Yeah. So I had to, like, stuff this dress.
00:07:48
And so I came out last night, and I had, like, double D boobs. They were... Because they were stuffed to the fucking hilt.
00:07:55
They were happening. Yeah. And then I took the cutlets, we learned, out. Left them on stage.
00:08:01
They're gone. Did those cutlets come with a dress or do you own cutlets? I own them because vintage dresses, again, tiny waist, big boobs, you have to fill them out.
00:08:11
And I'm cheap as fuck and I won't get anything altered. I just won't. Or fake boobs.
00:08:16
Just fucking kick out that 15 grand or however much they cost. I think that's like the low low.
00:08:21
I think that's a Groupon boob job. Yeah. Don't splurt. Let's talk about this fucking thing.
00:08:27
I'm... There she goes. Thank you. Show that rug. Show the rug. I went all the way off the rug.
00:08:40
Thank you. God, I wish I could explain my clothes. I've given up on dresses. But not enough.
00:08:50
I was having a lot of fun with them. And then we stopped touring for a little while.
00:08:55
And when we started again, the first show that we did, I just brought the last dress I had worn.
00:09:00
Not accounting for the time in between there where I had been eating fast food like it was my passion in life.
00:09:07
And so I went to put the dress on. It was like, and then I, so for that show, I was like, look, I simply can't wear my dress.
00:09:15
And then once I was up here in my regular clothes, I was like, I'm just going to wear my regular clothes.
00:09:20
It's so fun. I don't know why. You can do this for life. I mean, but it was very celebratory, kind of like,
00:09:27
it's a big deal to us to be here, so I shouldn't wear my pajamas, but it just turns out that that's what I want to do.
00:09:34
Look, you fucking did your hair. It looks great. Look and listen to your hair. I couldn't have more eyeshadow on.
00:09:40
I'm doing a lot of neck up shit right now. It's just where I am, and I'm not going to apologize.
00:09:46
And you shouldn't either. It's very stressful. It's a stressful time. It's a stressful time.
00:09:52
We're all stressed. Tell them about your boots in the airport instead. So when we left to come here, all of our friends and, of course, our tour manager, Vince, told us, yes, the greatest tour manager on the road today.
00:10:07
He let us know that we were going to be leaving L.A., which was around 78 degrees with fires on all sides.
00:10:15
Everything. Circle of fire. it looked like Sauron is that right? No. It's the reference I'm trying to make.
00:10:25
I don't know. Is that right? Oh okay. Is that Game of Thrones? That's close, close, close, close.
00:10:30
Same outfits. It's Lord of the Rings. It's what? Lord of the Rings or Return of the Jedi
00:10:36
whatever. At 21 I stopped pretending for guys that I gave a shit about fantasy. It's just like
00:10:46
No, I don't want to sit through this. I want to watch 13 going on 30 again. Goodbye.
00:10:53
It's a classic film. So Vince was like, we're leaving here in this temperatures,
00:11:00
and it's 20 where we're going. And this is the kind of work he has to do, because we would just come.
00:11:05
He has to be like, here's how degrees it's going to be. Here's what time you need to leave for the airport.
00:11:10
Here's what day you're leaving. No flip-flops. No flip-flops. So I had to call people that I knew traveled across the country often and were wealthy.
00:11:19
And I was like, can I borrow your nice coat? Can I borrow things? So I like rounded up a bunch of warm, I mean, cold weather clothes.
00:11:26
But then I was like, I'm getting out. I'm not going to borrow shoes for anybody.
00:11:30
So I went to the designer shoe warehouse, which you guys have those here, right?
00:11:35
So what I always forget, it seems like the best idea because it's very convenient.
00:11:39
it but what i always forget is the reason that shoes are at the designer shoe warehouse is because
00:11:44
they're broken and they don't work and people in like department stores were like what the fuck is
00:11:49
this neon tennis shoe with a heel fuck you and they throw it over their shoulder and then someone
00:11:54
comes and picks it and drives it over to the designer shoe warehouse you hate to admit it you know but Yeah but you want a shoe you just want to pay and pretend it going to work out
00:12:06
So I bought these beautiful fleece-lined boots, and then when we actually landed in the airport bathroom,
00:12:13
I changed from my slip-on shoes with no socks into these, but they weren't made to hold human feet.
00:12:22
You hadn't tried them on, right? I had not tried them on. Of course not. I love to live on the edge.
00:12:28
That's what you've got to know about Karen. There's no way you tried it on before you bought it.
00:12:31
No fucking way. I love in department stores and girls that work in department stores will come up and be like,
00:12:38
can I get a dressing room for you? They're like, never. No. Me too. None of my business, whether it fits or not.
00:12:45
I have to try things on, but I'm so claustrophobic that I just change in the middle of the store.
00:12:50
I find like a corner mirror and I have like a weird t-shirt on and yeah anyways go on that's
00:12:55
boring well no but you're because you're a bit of a nudist you have a touch of the nudism I just do
00:13:00
okay go on we're opposite seas anyhow trying to put these boots on in the bathroom stall
00:13:06
in the uh St. Louis airport uh it took me fully 10 minutes a full-on 10 minutes they probably
00:13:13
thought I was like dying of appendicitis or something and I couldn't like you couldn't you
00:13:18
can't slip your there's a there's a hard left turn inside the shoe that my foot can't take
00:13:24
i'm just saying sales their sales shoes are to be avoided you know what'd be great is if you had
00:13:34
not removed and i haven't seen you without them these pants and these shoes this entire
00:13:38
i'm just i haven't seen you without them i'm sleeping in this ninja outfit every night on
00:13:44
top of the blankets. Yes. They'll never find me. They'll never detect me. Look at these flowers.
00:13:52
Oh, yeah. Thank you so much. They're from one of your local florists, Beko. Beko, Beko.
00:14:00
Yeah, there you go. Look at them. They smell really good. Lauren, Krista, Rachel. Thanks, guys.
00:14:06
Classy, you guys. Classy. They smell good. They said, I think you might be sick of murder, so we got you
00:14:10
flowers. Like at a funeral. And no, we're never sick of murder. These are the flowers I want at my funeral.
00:14:18
Just every single thing is death related. Okay, I'm done spinning now. What else do we have?
00:14:26
I went to the Ozarks today. Oh, we went to Ozarkland. Like you recommended. They were like, no, we would have
00:14:34
told you to run. It was pretty great. I mean, the shit that they were advertising on the side of the wall,
00:14:40
how could we not stop? What was it? We were going to buy a plaque that would only have taken up room and had no purpose,
00:14:47
except for to hang it in your sassy kitchen. What did it say? It said something, something, something, something.
00:14:53
It just said two things. What were the first two? It was like good times and bikini lines.
00:15:00
Good times and tan lines. Good times and tan lines. I mean, who in this world doesn't appreciate?
00:15:06
I feel like because we're from Los Angeles, we don't appreciate how great tan lines are.
00:15:12
But here you guys are like, I want a fucking tan line. Give me a tan line. That means vacation.
00:15:18
Yeah. But we bought a present that you guys are going to be privy to later. Yeah.
00:15:23
For whoever does the hometown murder. Pretty exciting. I want to do the hometown murder now because I fucking want it.
00:15:31
And I'm like, why didn't we buy more? Let's just say it's a timeless piece that we got at Ozark Land.
00:15:39
Yeah. Along with some taffy. I did the dumb thing of like, they have like a joke, like a, you know, like gag gift section.
00:15:50
And I was like, oh, I'll get my nephews like seven, some gag stuff, even though I don't
00:15:53
think you're supposed to do that anymore. It's like bullying and like gag gifts or like, oh, really?
00:15:57
We can't have gag gifts anymore? Some nice garlic gum. Come on. Well, I once asked him in front of every, we were at like lunch and I was like, Micah,
00:16:06
who's the stupidest kid in your class? And my brother was like, Georgia, you don't do that.
00:16:11
I was like, oh. Was he all like, everyone's smart the same? No, he was like, Ricky.
00:16:19
He knew. He knew. He fucking knew. So I'm like, and also my brother bullied the,
00:16:27
my brother broke an egg over my head when I was a kid. So his kid's getting gag gifts
00:16:31
and he's going to use them on his dad. Amen. So I, they had the gum, like the looks like Wrigley's fruit chew.
00:16:38
And then you go to take it and zap to you. And I was like, I bet these have been here forever
00:16:40
and they don't work. so I did it to myself on accident. I went, I bet this time I'm going to try it.
00:16:46
And I went, wow! And it was real. It worked? How stupid is that, that I did it to myself?
00:16:50
Do you think it was kind of a high-voltage gum? Was it a good zap? It was a great little zap.
00:16:56
Really? Yeah, my brother's going to get it. Yeah. Yeah. Happy Hanukkah, fucker. From Ozarkland.
00:17:05
There was, I have to say, and I have a picture of this to prove it, the best graffiti I've ever seen in a bathroom.
00:17:11
in Ozarkland was a Jewish star someone had drawn and it said we are not alone on the television
00:17:18
oh Missouri Jews are you okay is everything the one guy's like we're not well good news you're not alone go to Ozarkland they meet there every Wednesday
00:17:35
in that bathroom stall Also, underneath that, in a different color pen, someone had written, for a good time, called Jesus.
00:17:48
And I was like, you know what? That's disrespectful to everybody. That doesn work out in any direction You saying Jesus is a slut I don think so What kind of phone do you think Jesus has Phone iPhone X Probably I think he has an old wall phone like an
00:18:07
old rotary phone that he walks all the way around the world with a really long cord.
00:18:13
Oh my god, somebody paint that for me. Don't fucking ask for things in this crowd, man.
00:18:19
You murder who knows. You're the people that can do it. Someone at the meet and greet last
00:18:24
night gave us this beautiful gift of a doll walking towards us not saying a word with a
00:18:31
like 1970s knitted clown doll and then she hands it she was lovely don't worry she didn't kill
00:18:39
then she's and it was the clown was smiling and she said turn it over and you turn it over and
00:18:45
there's a face on the back of its head and it's it's like angry or has different angry feelings
00:18:51
It was crying. It was crying. I don't know. It had knitted silver tears on its cheeks.
00:18:58
It was haunted. It was the most haunted item in America. And you could tell that it's like 40 years old, but it looked brand new.
00:19:06
So some aunt who gave to her nephew, not knowing what kids like, because she's like, I'm not having kids.
00:19:13
And the kid was like, I hate it. No one ever loved this doll. Yeah, they're like, Mommy, put it away.
00:19:21
And then it went up into the attic forever. And right next to the Ouija board. And then it started touching the Ouija board.
00:19:29
Yes, hold on. And then the devil came. Wait. And then Jesus called. He was like, not today, bitches.
00:19:38
There you go. Well, it's going to the fucking pod loft. My house is now haunted.
00:19:44
That's the next podcast. Yeah. Speaking of podcasts, this is my favorite murder.
00:19:48
Oh. Thanks for... Thanks. That's Karen Kilgara. And Mrs. Georgia Hartstark. Right?
00:20:01
These are the faces of the voices that you've been listening to. And then we turn around
00:20:07
and are crying on the set. Crying! Oh my God! How cool about me! That's for when we start doing the dance routine
00:20:18
at the end. Oh God. Haunted doll dance routine who's ready. No one's ready. No one is ready. No one's ready.
00:20:25
My uncle, Michael Hartstark, came to the show last night. He lives in St. Louis.
00:20:29
He's an older gentleman, lovely man, and he came backstage afterwards. Like, I didn't know what to
00:20:34
I don't know how to say it. I didn't know what to expect. I knew you had a podcast. I thought
00:20:38
they're not going to be dancing, are they? Like, you just didn't know at all. And then we're talking about boners on stage
00:20:45
and stuff. Yeah. Uncle Michael. It just slipped out. Although, now that we're talking about it, I feel like a dancing
00:20:52
podcast might be insanely badass because it'd just be like distant music and then the sound of feet
00:20:58
and then you just kind of fill it in of like, this is so great. Huffing and puffing a little.
00:21:05
Thanks so much. Here's our next one. This one will be slow. Potaboo, right? Steven's not here.
00:21:16
Yeah, sorry. Thank you guys for coming. He can't come on the road because he adopts too many cats.
00:21:23
You just stop too much to, like, pick up kittens. He's like, you know how every once in a while,
00:21:28
like, every six months, well, not anymore, but it used to be every six months in the news, you'd hear a story of a guy
00:21:32
that had, like, 15 turtles shoved up his sleeve trying to get across the border.
00:21:36
Oh, my God. That's totally Stephen with kittens. He's got a fake leg and he just stops it with kittens.
00:21:46
Stuffed with kittens. He didn't even need to have his leg emputated. He just wanted a fucking place to put
00:21:51
kittens. He did it for the love of kittens. That is dedication. He would do that.
00:21:55
Let's spread that rumor. He's perverted. For a good time, call Steven and his leg.
00:22:01
He's perverted for kittens! He's actually not watching my cats this time, and I think
00:22:09
I saw his heart break in his eyes when I told him that our friends were staying in town at our place, and I just
00:22:15
saw it, and I know he's watching the Instagram being like, I bet they're not going to be better than me.
00:22:19
And I can see in Elvis' fucking eyes. He's bummed. He misses Stephen. Never again.
00:22:26
I love the way we talk about Stephen as we do a recorded show as if he's never going to listen to it.
00:22:32
He's the first person that hears all of this. Before you guys even gets in your ear,
00:22:38
he's already heard that. He's on it and has edited out this part. Every time. all I want is a sip of that beer that's on the stage
00:22:49
I'm going to be honest kind of rude just right in arms like should we sit down? yes
00:22:59
and get you away from that beer? yes please that's a big scream big stuff you guys
00:23:08
let's put this here let's set the table let's put the water there I'm going to do this.
00:23:16
Nope, wait, okay. Hey. Can I get an Allen wrench for this chair? Oh, no. Just tighten up some nuts on this chair a little bit.
00:23:25
Are you going to fall? I have chair fear. Oh, no. Is it wobbly? Show the crowd. Show them.
00:23:31
Is it wobbly? It's a little wobbly. It might be me. You might be wobbly. It might just be me.
00:23:36
Don't show them this. Oh, yeah, that's secret. That's secret. Okay. Okay, that's for later.
00:23:40
You'll see it. I have flowers. Are you guys ready to talk about some murder? Yeah.
00:23:48
We should let everyone know, this is not, in case you don't know yet, this is not Les Miserables.
00:23:53
You went to the wrong place if that's what you thought it would be. It's not a Mannheim Steamrollers Christmas concert.
00:23:58
Yeah. If you go that way, I don't know, that way you'll find that, and the other way you'll find that.
00:24:05
So this is not what this is, unless Lame is Rob is a true crime podcast, and I didn't know.
00:24:10
Well, it is kind of. It kind of is. There's a pretty true crime right at the beginning.
00:24:14
Okay. And then the crime of war. Anyhow. It's also, it's a comedy podcast where we talk about true crime, and sometimes that bums people out.
00:24:27
And so if you're the kind of person that gets bummed out by stuff like that, get the fuck out of here.
00:24:35
I'm joking. I'm joking. That's the comedy part. If you do get bummed out, don't worry.
00:24:41
A little hilarity. Well, it's true. But not because of the crime. You never. Yeah.
00:24:47
Bro, from the show last night to this drive, why is it never chill? Because this is our life backstage on the road.
00:24:54
It's loud, messy, real. And that's the best part. Whole crew, no plan, just moving.
00:25:01
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That's K-N-I-X.com. Code FLOW15. You go first tonight? Yeah, I'm first. I'm first.
00:27:36
Yeah! And I have to say, this case is fascinating to me. I first saw it on an episode of 48 Hours.
00:27:50
came in in the middle half and was so hypnotized by the subject that was being interviewed on the
00:28:00
story and his personality and what was happening that I couldn't stop watching it and I became
00:28:07
obsessed with it and then Stephen who sends us suggestions of cases that we could do sent me this
00:28:13
suggestion and I freaked out because I didn't realize that it was in this area so I don't know
00:28:18
if you guys know um about the international house of prayer and the tyler deaton bethany needlin
00:28:27
case i don't know it fuck dude okay buckle the fuck up now this is technically this is technically not a murder um and i have to say that for legal reasons i when i was
00:28:46
researching this, there's an amazing Rolling Stone article that is called Love and Death in the House
00:28:52
of Prayer by a man named Jeff Teets. That's an amazing article that's incredibly
00:28:56
thorough, but I highly recommend that you read. But at the beginning of this Rolling Stone article, there
00:29:02
is this disclaimer, which I'm going to read to you so it also counts for me. Because
00:29:08
when I read it, because I was like, oh, this is amazing. I'm just going to retell that 48 hours that I
00:29:12
love. And then as I read this, I was just like, holy shit, I think some people wrote some cease and desist letters or something.
00:29:18
I don't know. I can't wait. So at the very top of this article, it said, Editor's Note, in October 2014, nearly a year after this story appeared,
00:29:30
the case against Micah Moore, you'll meet him later, not Michael Moore, the documentarian,
00:29:36
God, you guys, loved him, was dismissed. Basically, they say, that's a long quote from a lawyer you don't really need.
00:29:49
Okay with a trial no longer eminent the prosecutor office and Moore defense attorneys released critical pieces of exculpatory evidence for the first time When we reported this story a year earlier without access to this new information we presented the criminal case against Moore as entirely credible
00:30:07
Moore implicated Tyler Deaton in the alleged crime, and we presented that implication as credible as well.
00:30:13
But the evidence available now suggests overwhelmingly that Bethany Deaton committed suicide
00:30:18
and that Moore and Deaton are innocent of any crime. We now know every verifiable statement Moore made to the detectives was either proven false or was contradicted by the evidence.
00:30:29
After a confession, investigators discovered no additional evidence that a crime had occurred,
00:30:34
and both circumstantial and forensic evidence point to suicide. We urge readers to reconsider this story in light of the totality of the evidence,
00:30:42
a comprehensive account of that evidence, including more detail on Moore's confession,
00:30:47
and the suicide is presented below in the original fucking article. It doesn't say fucking.
00:30:54
Okay. Wow. Did you guys get that? Did you write that down? We have a court reporter that's writing it, so don't worry.
00:31:02
So that felt important to say. I don't follow any of that. Great. Perfect. Because I realize I kind of buried the lead there.
00:31:13
Spoiled it? Well, not really, though, because the story itself is fascinating. So whatever the truth of it is, I'm not sure where we are with that right now.
00:31:22
We'll decide at the end of this. Right. The truth. Okay. And I want to pronounce Bethany's original name as Liedlund.
00:31:33
Does anybody know if that's incorrect pronunciation? Liedlund? Then that's it. Okay.
00:31:38
So I think it's right. Okay. I just don't want to say it wrong. Okay. So Bethany Liedlund grew up in a devoutly Christian home in suburban Dallas.
00:31:46
She and her four siblings were all homeschooled. She read every Dickens novel except for one by the time she was 13.
00:31:53
And upon finishing high school, she won a scholarship to Southwestern University in Georgetown, Texas, near Austin.
00:32:00
Did she ever finish that last Dickens novel? We will never know. Why didn't they?
00:32:04
Why did that get included? She was... Name is a rock. Right? Right? Every old book is written by Charles Dickens.
00:32:12
It's the end. But she was a genuinely talented writer. And in this article, if you go read it, they have chunks of her writing.
00:32:20
She had a blog for a while, and she really is, her writing is really, really good and very original.
00:32:26
I was super impressed by it. So she became the pride of Southwestern's writing center, and she eventually would graduate magna cum laude.
00:32:35
but in 2007 she was invited to join a prayer group that was started by a fellow student and Christian
00:32:43
named Tyler Deaton so according to Tyler right before he was about to begin his junior year
00:32:50
at Southwestern University while he was standing outside Barnes & Noble waiting for the midnight release of Harry Potter
00:32:55
and the Deathly Hallows we were there right? no I wasn't God commanded him to form a worship group in line.
00:33:08
He just got bored. He got bored and started hearing the voice of God. So apparently that summer he had been doing missionary work in Pakistan,
00:33:19
and he claims that while he was there, he saw a number of supernatural things occur,
00:33:25
one of which was a young boy who had one leg acquired his second leg. And the word used is acquired.
00:33:36
Steven. Oh, my God. It was fucking Steven. That, like, that's the singularity taking place, and then I die on this stage.
00:33:49
It's just like, what? The biggest circle has come full. Okay, so they name a couple other supernatural experiences that he claims to have had,
00:34:02
and a lot of them seem to be maybe intuition, or maybe just some of them are like things like,
00:34:09
he would command birds to fly away, and they would. Where it's like, so if you say something in a loud voice, birds fly away?
00:34:16
I've seen that happen before. To people without powers. one of them said one time
00:34:25
neighbors were playing music loudly and Tyler yelled Jesus and the music stopped
00:34:30
well you just sound like the angry neighbor that wants them to turn the music off
00:34:36
that's not religious specifically I'm going to need more than that so anyway he came back to America and he wanted
00:34:45
to see these supernatural things happening here in America He wanted more of that in his life.
00:34:53
And so, of course, the answer came outside of Barnes & Noble. God said to him, what you just did in Pakistan.
00:35:00
So apparently it was him who acquired the second leg for the boy. What you just did in Pakistan, you're going to do at Southwestern.
00:35:09
And the Lord told him who should be in this prayer circle that he was supposed to start.
00:35:14
A guy named Justin, a girl named June, and Bethany Leland. um so Tyler starts the group with those four people they're all Christians they are all at
00:35:25
this small university together so aside from when they would get together aside from bible study and
00:35:30
praying together they would spend hours discussing Harry Potter books and films uh which they approached with a quote religious devotion um a guy who joined after the initial
00:35:42
four. His name is Bose Harrington, and he was the person who talked to this reporter the most in
00:35:48
Rolling Stone, and he said that the books, quote, fueled our sense of being on a divine mission.
00:35:56
They also supported Tyler obsession the paradigm of good and evil So Tyler had been a champion debater in high school and he applied those skills to his religious pursuits in college
00:36:08
He believed that he was right, and anyone who didn't share his beliefs, which would be kind of evangelical Christians' belief, was ignorant.
00:36:17
And his senior quote in the Kalalan High School yearbook from Corpus Christi, Texas, read,
00:36:22
be intolerant because some things are just stupid. New shirt. Lawsuit. I love that God's paging through that yearbook
00:36:41
and he reads that and he's like, I'm going to talk to this guy. This is who I want to start sending messages through.
00:36:46
I was going to do the guy who quoted Led Zeppelin, but no, I'm going to do this guy instead.
00:36:50
No, everyone's heard that one. Yeah. Okay. But this ability to argue, this logical thinking, and this passion and dedication also made him a very effective evangelist.
00:37:04
The four-person prayer circle soon grew to have over 20 members. And in that 48 hours episode, Tyler says they interview him.
00:37:14
And I highly recommend that you watch that if you haven't seen it already, because it is he's an amazing individual.
00:37:23
And now he clearly went on that show to prove his innocence and to to prove that he didn't have anything to do with Bethany's death.
00:37:33
I guess I should just say that. So on that in that interview, he says my gift and something that is also a curse is that I'm charismatic.
00:37:40
I'm charismatic I've owned that from the beginning I'll own it to the end I can be electric and magnetic
00:37:49
I'm glad he's owning it he is owning it no, what you say is I'm gassy I've been gassy from the beginning
00:37:56
and I'm gassy from the end and I'm owning it look, I'm owning it that's what you own, you don't own
00:38:01
I'm beautiful I'm so gorgeous, look people have accused, fine I'll take it hauntingly beautiful
00:38:08
and electric and magnetic okay but he was also conflicted because uh from from since he can
00:38:19
remember he had homosexual impulses uh that he could not control and he felt very conflicted
00:38:24
about that because it did not line up with his uh evangelical christian upbringing or beliefs
00:38:30
that he held himself um he told friends that he knew that there was a connection between this
00:38:35
his interest in these, because he also liked shit, what's the other the Narnia books
00:38:43
yes, thank you the Chronicles of Narnia I was so close I mean I was fucking V.C. Andrews
00:38:54
I thought that's what you mean I was telling Georgia I have the audio I'm still listening to it on an audio book
00:39:02
because it's hard to take but oh my god some of the phrases that those that they use in that book get my sweet audrina if
00:39:11
anyone's reading along i don't know if anybody noticed this at one point nearly near the beginning
00:39:17
i think she's describing vera the cousin and she says clumsily clumbering down the hall
00:39:23
clumbering is not a word is it okay tyler basically told his friends that he knew he was obsessed with these fantasy novels and harry
00:39:35
potter and witchcraft and all these things bethany in this as the prayer group gets bigger bethany
00:39:42
invites her friend micah moore into the group in 2007 they had met in an english class they hit it
00:39:48
off they were really good friends he told her a story about dropping acid and having visions of
00:39:53
angels and demons fighting over his soul and so she's like i think you should come to our prayer
00:39:58
group. That sounds like acid. Yeah, right? Like, yeah. It could be that or it could be like one
00:40:05
time I took acid and then it was just Goofy's face spinning and spinning and spinning. I think
00:40:10
you should come to Disneyland. I can't see that goddamn dog again. So she believed that Micah was
00:40:19
a lost soul in need of saving. There are many of these people on the southwestern campus and this
00:40:24
prayer group's job, they slowly began to believe that their job was to save these souls.
00:40:31
So in December 2007, Tyler, his cousin told him he should go to a seminar at the International
00:40:37
House of Prayer in Kansas City. And it's a charismatic Christian movement based here in
00:40:44
Kansas City and a nearby suburb of Grandview. And the people that go to this church, maybe some of
00:40:53
you are here. Close your ears for what she's about to say. You don't think about these things
00:41:01
until you're saying them out loud into a large group of people. I don't think this podcast would exist
00:41:06
if we had to have said every episode in front of a bunch of people. No way. There's something about the comfort
00:41:12
of my living room. Oh, just those cats staring at you and no one else? Steven. But basically, this is the tenant
00:41:20
and it's their, you know, this isn't editorial. this is a fact, their belief is that the second coming will be soon
00:41:28
and that God needs our help on earth to return Christ to earth by fighting the Antichrist.
00:41:37
So this is all a very eminent issue, they believe. So they also believe that young people will make up God's army
00:41:45
and they will fight the Antichrist in a seven-year battle called the Tribulation.
00:41:50
And when that over Jesus is going to return to earth and then take up a sword and kill all the unsaved people And then the survivors will rule heaven and earth for eternity Oh my god I need a nap That fucking exhausting shit man Just after I say that I just want to really quickly remind the Jews of Missouri you not alone
00:42:10
It just feels relevant for this moment. That means a lot. Does that mean a lot to you?
00:42:18
It means a lot to me. Okay. Amen. Also, in their teachings, the way that they explain things is the way you should pray and interact with God
00:42:28
is you should see Christ as your bridegroom. Bridegroom. And that your prayer experience should be one of intimacy with him.
00:42:39
And there's a lot of strong sexual undertones in the way they worship, according to ex-members who talk to Rolling Stone.
00:42:47
And at the International House of Pancake Prayer Complex. You just can't help it.
00:42:54
I mean, it's actually brilliant marketing of them. Because they're just like, you know it.
00:42:59
Now come over here. You have breakfast. Now come over and get saved. And it's like, if you're trying to recruit someone, you'd be like, hey, do you want to go to IHOP on Sunday morning?
00:43:07
I'd love to. I'd love to go to IHOP. Oh, my God. I love how they have different flavors of syrup and God.
00:43:14
I feel like IHOP is the opposite of church. Like in the feeling I have when I think about how much time I've spent in church, staring, starving, hating.
00:43:25
Then you're in IHOP and you're just like, Sarah, the flood of love. That's my issue.
00:43:32
Now we're talking Catholicism. We're going to, don't worry. Then we're going to go to Hindu.
00:43:37
We're going to hit it all tonight. Thank God, run out the back. Okay. So at this complex, the IHOP complex, they play music all the time in cafeterias, in the hallways, in the prayer rooms.
00:43:53
And it's composed by the elders of the church to enhance the ecstatic experience and make it omnipresent.
00:44:03
And former IHOPers talked about being addicted to that music, that when it's turned off, they become very nervous and irritable.
00:44:11
and they also talk about the sedative atmosphere of the prayer room. They all go into a prayer room for hours and hours at a time,
00:44:19
and when they leave the prayer room, they become anxious, discouraged, and they often say to each other, I've got to get back into the prayer room.
00:44:28
So just scientifically, we've got a lot of things here that are matching up with cult practices
00:44:35
and indoctrination in the cult and brainwashing. But just in that way of like, hey, turn that music off for a little while.
00:44:43
You know what I mean? Put some Beyonce on. Let's have some fucking fun. How about an hour, a solid hour of prayer, and then you go throw a Frisbee for a while?
00:44:50
It doesn't need to be four hours. But I'm not in charge. So members of the church prayed all day and night, long sessions of mesmeric musical worship,
00:45:00
repeating the same phrases over and over for hours at a time. So when Tyler came home, he went there at his cousin's urging, and he went and had like a weekend there or whatever.
00:45:13
In my mind, it was like a weekend, but it could have been fucking 70 days. But when he came back to college, he told all of his friends in his prayer group he'd had a transformation and that he had been chosen to train God's final army.
00:45:30
So things are getting serious. So in spring of 2008, everyone in the group believed that Tyler was an end times apostle and that they had themselves were receiving prophecies from God.
00:45:42
So in the stories that you read, these kids are starting to believe they also are being talked to by God.
00:45:47
And then they're telling each other the prophecies. And it truly is are things like I God told me a prophecy that I should marry you.
00:45:55
And then the other person would be like, well, I don't agree with this prophecy.
00:45:58
And everything is becoming very like it's a message from God. it has to happen. Where are the fucking teachers
00:46:03
in this whole story? They're in that part of the library no one goes in with the weird magazines that are in plastic.
00:46:09
Yeah. Bad coffee. Yep. A lot of whispering. Nobody really knows what's going on.
00:46:16
Okay, so basically Tyler tells the group that they're all going to move to Kansas
00:46:21
City to be closer to IHOP Central. And they're like, we're down. We are soldiers
00:46:27
in God's army. So in early 2009, Tyler and Bethany moved to Grandview, Missouri to begin IHOP's six-month internship program.
00:46:37
So from 8 a.m. to 4 p.m. every day, they absorbed biblical analysis theology, and then from 6 till midnight, they worshiped in the prayer room.
00:46:45
6 till midnight is six hours. We're going to sit here for six hours so you guys know what it is.
00:46:52
So you understand how much worship that is, because it's a ton. So then slowly, the other kids from the prayer group,
00:47:00
who either were still in school or whatever. They were slowly moving up to Kansas City to move there.
00:47:06
And they started a thing called the community. And this was Tyler's idea. They lived in two separate houses, boys in one house, girls in the other.
00:47:15
The houses were four miles apart. And then they would meet together in the boys' house when they had had communal meetings.
00:47:24
And Tyler was receiving messages from God not only about the coming tribulation,
00:47:28
but he also had messages about where people should sit at dinner and how they should dress.
00:47:34
I don't think God gives a shit about that stuff. No. I'm going to go ahead and...
00:47:38
That's not what the messages that Tyler was getting said. Okay. All right. Okay.
00:47:43
There was a lot of control and a lot of you don't think for yourself, I think for you, because God told me.
00:47:49
So then the members of the group start kind of cutting out friends and family members
00:47:55
who aren't that into what they're doing, of course, because they're oppressing their...
00:48:00
allegiance to God's army for the tribulation. And then he starts discouraging relationships between them,
00:48:09
saying that they're a distraction and an offense to God. But he did encourage prolonged affectionate contact,
00:48:15
particularly among men, because he said they had been wrongly socialized against it,
00:48:21
so they needed to hug and cuddle, give each other massages. because if you were uncomfortable with another man's touch,
00:48:30
then you had a wall in your heart and you were only experiencing part of God's love
00:48:36
and that you couldn't function as a Christian in this way. So then Tyler claims to the group that he has a revelation
00:48:42
that his homosexuality is actually a choice. And so a few days later, he says, as he's sitting in the prayer room watching Bethany worship.
00:48:51
So Bethany had actually had a big crush on him for a long time. It was a big part of why she was such a huge part of this group.
00:48:57
And she had told him that she had a marriage prophecy about him. And when she told him that, he like iced her and was just like, no, and was really cold to her.
00:49:07
And it broke her heart. But she stayed in. And she believed that she believed homosexuality was a sickness that needed to be cured in him.
00:49:15
And that she was just going to stand by and be patient and basically love him out of it.
00:49:19
So one day he announces to the group that he was, in his words, sitting in the prayer room watching Bethany worship, and he felt a giant vat of affection rush over him.
00:49:34
That's a direct quote. Oh, that does not sound very romantic. It's not. I mean, everybody's different, but.
00:49:44
Just a vat spilled all over me. boiling, scalding vat of affection. Tumbled over.
00:49:54
He actually later wrote in an essay, I was experiencing real, passionate, sexual, knock-me-off-my-feet
00:49:59
pure and glorious attractions for the most beautiful woman alive. So then when they
00:50:09
complete their internship there, he asks her out, and in the summer of 2009 he announces to her
00:50:15
that he intended to pursue her unto marriage, which is, I guess, the Bible way of saying it.
00:50:21
So, of course, she's thrilled. This is like what she was kind of hanging in there and waiting for,
00:50:25
and she thinks he's finally seen the light, and they're going to be all aligned in the spirit.
00:50:31
I just made that up. Karen, are you joining this cult right now? And then the idea of Jesus with a sword
00:50:40
does kind of make me smile a little bit. it's just exactly the opposite of how he works in every way like i yes you can say that like
00:50:50
a fallen angel would come or like there's some maybe michael he was a big fighter
00:50:54
but jesus isn't gonna come and kill people with a sword that's nuts he's a hippie okay
00:51:00
look we all have our own beliefs okay So here's how they did it. To the group, they think this is a staged relationship.
00:51:14
And this is why. They went on a date every Tuesday between 6 and 9. And then they spent Fridays baking bread together.
00:51:23
That was the extent of how they hung. There was no Netflixing and there was no chilling.
00:51:27
That's how Vince courted me. Oh my God, is he in the IHOP? Vince baking bread for hours.
00:51:38
Okay. Tyler claimed that anything more than that would be subordinating the needs of the group to their own needs.
00:51:46
So group first, group first, group first, which is another huge cult thing. He discouraged Bethany from physical displays of affection,
00:51:53
and they would not kiss until their engagement two and a half years later. Where is that vat of affection we were talking about?
00:52:00
The vat is at a tilt. It's not pouring. It's not a stream or a waterfall. of affection yet? She was promised a vat
00:52:07
and I'm gonna Okay So they get married in August of 2012 and in this procession he sings
00:52:17
Come to me my beloved So the groom is singing at his own wedding Wrong, right? Wrong
00:52:23
How much would you pay to be at that wedding? So much money Well the mother So there's
00:52:30
Of course the mother is in this 48 hours episode Of course, it's tragically sad because essentially her daughter just got taken away from her and then died in a way that she in no way believes she would do.
00:52:42
As she knew her as her daughter, she would not kill herself. And she says that at this wedding, it looked like this adjoining of these apostolic, like it looked like a religious ceremony about something else as opposed to a wedding of two people that were in love.
00:52:57
And she said it was singing at her. He was singing at her, and there was a lot, you know, of course it was a lot of, like, you know, the leaders of the army.
00:53:06
There was just a lot of shit that was very exclusionary to family and friends, but they were there anyway.
00:53:11
So they said that Bethany seemed resolved and serene. Resolved at your wedding. Look, look, I'm doing it.
00:53:19
I'm fucking doing this. Fucking doing this. The Jordan almonds have been purchased and put into little baggies.
00:53:24
There's no going back. I got 1,000 pounds of Jordan almonds, and I'm not throwing them away, not for you, not for anybody.
00:53:36
But some people in attendance said that they were super uneasy, and they were spooked by Tyler's evident power over Bethany.
00:53:45
And several of her old friends said they had a deep sense that they were saying goodbye to her for the final time.
00:53:52
Yeah, it's very sad. So members of the prayer group say Bethany showed a marked change when the couple came back from their three honeymoon They said that she was really different She was very withdrawn and she was acting really weird
00:54:05
And she had moved into the men's house, into the basement with Tyler, but she kept coming back to the woman's house and staying there for days at a time.
00:54:15
Then on October 3rd, she was temporarily admitted to Truman Medical Center after threatening suicide.
00:54:24
Not attempting, but threatening it. So 10 weeks later, on October 30th, 2012, at 9.40 p.m.,
00:54:32
sheriff's deputies respond to a report of a dead body in the parking lot near Longview Lake Picnic Shelter No. 12.
00:54:39
In a tan Ford Windstar van, in the back seat, deputies find the body of Bethany Deaton.
00:54:46
A white plastic trash bag has been pulled over her head and tied under her chin.
00:54:51
She's 27 years old at the time. On the console, there's two bottles of Tylenol PM.
00:54:56
One is unopened and the other is empty. Now, Bethany, in the time of them being up here and being at this church,
00:55:03
she had gone back to school and she became a registered nurse, which is, I think, an important factoid to know about this,
00:55:11
that she was a registered nurse with access to any drug that she wanted. And to commit suicide by taking one full bottle of Tylenol PM
00:55:19
and then putting a bag over your head doesn't make sense. It also doesn't make sense because her eyes were open,
00:55:25
and she had inhaled the bag. And if you OD'd on something, you would be out, especially like a sleeping pill, like an over-the-counter sleeping pill like that.
00:55:35
She would have been asleep. And her eyes wouldn't have been opened. So the police were baffled by what they found here.
00:55:42
Because there was also a suicide note next to her. But it just said, I am evil. It just said all the stuff that kind of didn't sound like her.
00:55:50
It was written in her handwriting, but it wasn't her voice. And it certainly wasn't like any of the writing that they put in this Rolling Stone article in the beginning that's beautiful and very original.
00:55:59
And a very, very accurate self-expression. She was very good at expressing herself on paper.
00:56:05
And this was like a weird list of I'm bad and wrong and it should just be over. Now, she did.
00:56:11
Her friends did say there was a marked change when they came back from the honeymoon.
00:56:15
So who knows? I mean, like something could have happened and we don't know. So 10 days after Bethany's body is found, Micah Moore, her friend that she got to join the group who had eventually moved up in 2011.
00:56:29
He moved up to Kansas City as well and joined the community. And when he did, there was a big upset in the men's house and all the rooms switched around.
00:56:39
And Tyler had basically wanted Micah to move into his room. And it was kind of an issue.
00:56:47
So anyway, 10 days after the bodies found, Micah walks into the Grandview police station and confesses that he killed Bethany.
00:56:54
His account is bizarre and salacious. but he knew things about the crime scene that you couldn't have known
00:57:01
unless you were there in that van. He also claimed that he did it under Tyler's orders.
00:57:07
So basically he told detectives that over the past few months Bethany had been dosed with the antipsychotic Seroquel
00:57:16
and that he and several men in the house had been sexually assaulting her when she was out.
00:57:23
They thought she would tell someone about it and under questioning by detectives, two of the men in the house who had recently moved out
00:57:30
revealed that they were in ongoing sexual relationships with Tyler. And one of them said this relationship was long-term.
00:57:38
A fourth said that Tyler had groomed him to be part of their sexual group. They said he was manipulative and exercised control over all the members of the household.
00:57:47
And he characterized all of their sexual activity as a religious experience. So then two weeks later after this huge, so when he confesses all of this, and then it's suddenly the cops are like, well, that would actually make sense if someone strangled her in that van.
00:58:03
Then we know why these things that don't line up with an overdose happened. You know, it's all starting to line up for them.
00:58:09
And then Micah Moore's lawyer recants his admission on his behalf. She declares his confession bizarre, fictional, and made by a distraught, confused young man.
00:58:19
and then the charges are eventually dropped and Bethany's death is ruled a suicide
00:58:24
but very few members of the original group of I think right around 20 somewhere, 23 maybe
00:58:31
almost none of them believed Bethany would commit suicide and after her death the community disintegrates
00:58:39
everybody leaves, people go back, people's parents come and pick them up, the whole thing's over
00:58:45
so now I'm going to read you the speech that Tyler gave at Bethany's funeral oh no
00:58:52
uh huh as some of you know already I'm a man who is in love with ideas with crazy paradigms
00:59:02
and then he laughed and when they brought me Bethany's body at first I cried but then I laughed
00:59:09
because I said to her Bethany if you could see you you would not like the way you look right now
00:59:14
and last night we had worship time together very briefly as a group and it was wonderful and it
00:59:22
just showed me the lord's supremacy over this wretched thing that is death and i thought to
00:59:26
myself what a crazy paradigm and then i thought bethany would love my paradigm because she loved
00:59:32
me and was so fiercely supportive and believed me hundreds of times when i thought i was crazy or
00:59:38
heretical the end can you imagine following that speech and now you're just like we're gonna close
00:59:49
this down now because everybody has to go to their car and scream at the top of their lungs
00:59:54
like what in the living fuck oh my god what in the fuck just really quick i going to read you my favorite part of the 48 Hours interview Okay Because basically the interviewer says it Troy Roberts and he says
01:00:07
I have to ask you this question directly. Did you order Micah to kill your wife?
01:00:11
And he says, no. No, of course not. I mean, I have read the media, so I know the image.
01:00:17
Micah is easily manipulatable. That's not a word. What's the implication? Tyler manipulated him.
01:00:25
And then Robert says, I'm asking you if he wanted to please you. And then Tyler gets real haughty, real fast, too.
01:00:34
This is kind of right where I came in the first time I saw it. I was like, uh-oh, what's happening now?
01:00:39
Here we go. It's that thing of they don't know how they're being seen. They think they're smarter than everybody.
01:00:47
And he says, is the reason you're asking me if he wanted to please me is because you think his desire to please me somehow led to foul play?
01:00:54
my sense listening and definitely the way i think anybody watching would interpret is
01:00:59
did micah want to please you if the answer is yes then he could have done this thing
01:01:03
that the media painted him as doing and i don't think that's fair to micah or to myself
01:01:07
a simple no i mean none of it's fair to bethany in my opinion no fucking ain't so anyway uh there's your super
01:01:20
unsatisfying yet insane story of the community. I wish this was the kind of show where
01:01:32
then we could just watch that episode together. Because I want you to see it so bad. It's
01:01:38
quite something. Let's all go to IHOP. Right? We'll get the pancakes. We'll sing the same song for
01:01:44
six hours. That was fucking incredible. I cannot wait. to watch that so nuts okay my story and all alleged alleged alleged okay here we go steven
01:01:58
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That's K-N-I-X.com. Code FLOW15. My story is about the oldest people ever sentenced to death in America, Ray and Faye Copeland.
01:04:25
Oh. You're friends. Everyone's grandfather and grandma here, right? You're all Copelands?
01:04:33
Great. You're all Copelands. We sectioned off a whole Copeland area right down here.
01:04:40
This is the Copeland family reunion. Yep. Let me tell you about your fucking grandpappy.
01:04:47
Okay. Ray Copeland was born December 30th, 2014. You're doing great. You're doing great.
01:04:59
Thank you. Off to a good start. 1914. He grew up in Ozark Hills, Arkansas. He dropped out of school after fourth grade to help on the family's farm,
01:05:09
as a lot of kids did during the Depression. Even though it was the Great Depression,
01:05:15
for some reason his parents spoiled the shit out of him, and he got whatever he wanted.
01:05:20
Like what? A strip of molasses? A string? I don't know. Could I have an orange, please?
01:05:30
This is just what all the things say, and I'm going to believe it. Okay. No, I like it.
01:05:34
A spoiled child during the Depression is kind of a great thing to think about. He got one boot instead of two boots.
01:05:42
My mom. His first documented crime was at the age of 20. He stole two of his family's hogs and sold them in another town.
01:05:52
So he's setting up his fucking M.O. He just lured them away from all the other hogs when no one was looking Yeah and then he like hey you want to buy these How old was he 20 Oh okay So he continued to practice his love of stealing livestock in the area
01:06:10
So he'd like steal livestock and then sell it to someone else, pocket the money, and then the person would be like, what the fuck?
01:06:16
And then... I think they call that a wrestler, isn't it? A wrestler? No. I think they call that a professional wrestler, don't they?
01:06:29
Well, Colgan used to do it all the time. But then he fell in love with a new thing that he loved forging checks.
01:06:38
Oh, I understand that. Yeah, so that was fun. Yeah, that was his new thing, and that landed in county jail for a year, 1936.
01:06:48
In the spring of 1940, Ray made a routine visit to his physician's office, and he meets a woman named Faye Della Wilson.
01:06:57
Falls in love with her. She's 19 at the time. She and Ray's been raised by a hardworking couple from Harrison
01:07:03
with a little money and raised seven children while living in a dirt floor cabin.
01:07:09
Oh. What a fucking bummer, right? Yes. What if it was like a dirt floor cabin that was like five bedrooms, three bathrooms?
01:07:16
Just happen to have dirt. Subway tile. Yeah. it's funny because it always seems like
01:07:23
if you were raised in a dirt floor cabin you're either going to grow up to be like
01:07:27
a check forger like murderer or you're going to grow up to be like a country sensation
01:07:31
yes it's Dolly it's Dolly or these people not a lot in between this isn't Dolly's story
01:07:40
just FYI do you want to see a picture of Faye and Ray? sure this is them young and pretty
01:07:47
hold on I can't see shit No, they're murderers. Don't awe on them. Oh, no. They're kind of attractive, right?
01:07:55
I'd take a bad check from him. That's it. Her hair is like what I... That's usually what I rocked in the 90s.
01:08:04
Some weird random bobby pin right there. I'm like, it's called style. Let's get drunk.
01:08:14
Okay. So they started dating, and in six months, they're married. Within a year, I have that first kid.
01:08:20
And then I wrote, and they're married within six months again. Because I copied and pasted that.
01:08:26
Okay, they have four kids over the next ten years. Ray keeps up his fucking passion of illegal shit.
01:08:33
He's sentenced to a year in jail for stealing horses from a neighbor's farm. And then the family's like, let's get the fuck out of here.
01:08:40
They're on to us. And they move to Missouri. And he's immediately arrested for cattle theft again.
01:08:45
Like the second he gets here, he's like, sorry. You guys eat. I'm just real quick.
01:08:50
There's just a couple cows I see across the street that seem like they don't have an owner.
01:08:55
Right. Okay, so he keeps doing this from 1953 to 1966, and they move from town to town stealing livestock and fucking writing bad checks
01:09:06
and doing it again and again. It's totally his thing. Because before the Internet or phones or whatever,
01:09:12
it was just kind of like you'd hear tell of somebody that stole the cow. Right. Basically?
01:09:17
Yeah. But then that guy would show up and be like, okay, you can have the horse.
01:09:22
Do you need to borrow the horse for an hour? Don't they know one has a freckle? Do horses have...
01:09:27
And they're like, that's Bob's horse. Yeah. Well, usually I think it's branding.
01:09:32
That's why they brand it. That makes way more sense. Than any kind of... But no, Bob's horse has shorter bangs.
01:09:39
It's not Bob's horse. No. I mean, I'm like, branding, what a fucking great idea.
01:09:46
Shit, right? During the summer of 1966, the Cochrane family go back to Missouri,
01:09:53
where Ray and Faye successfully purchased a small farm with 40 acres of land in Mooresville, population 130.
01:10:02
That's not a good number for stealing stuff. No, I know, right? Like, you moved to a big city.
01:10:07
Yeah, blend in, dummy. Dude, for real. Faye takes a job at a glove-making company.
01:10:16
I thought you'd like that. I kept that in for you. I thought you said lovemaking company.
01:10:27
Oh, you didn't know there was a job back then? A company comprised of the worst word in the English language.
01:10:36
We make this word that everyone hates saying. No gloves. You mean gloves? Gloves.
01:10:44
Yeah. I might be going deaf. Okay. It's a chance. That's good. Okay. Good to know.
01:10:50
So Ray's unpopular with neighbors. They call him a bitter elderly man. You know, a fucking asshole.
01:10:56
Wow, what a slam. I know. You bigger elderly man. They think he's abusive, of course, to Faye and her children.
01:11:06
A real bitey and snappy, recalled the owner of a local cafe. Wasn't he supposed to be bitey?
01:11:13
He's at a cafe eating. Is he thinking of a giant turtle? Oh, I'm sorry. I thought you said a giant turtle.
01:11:22
Oh, you're asking me about Ray? Yeah. Oh, yeah. He's fine. He's got a heart shell.
01:11:28
Oh, no, wait. No. Bitey and snappy. I don't think you guys have turned against him enough because I left.
01:11:37
Ready? He yelled at waitresses. Boo. Boo. Fuck you. And he would try to run over dogs in the street.
01:11:46
What? I knew it. I knew you guys would fucking be on my side after that. That's so terrible.
01:11:54
It makes me laugh. This is where, okay, so now Ray's, I'm older. I'm snappier. I'm ready to start actually scheming.
01:12:06
Oh. So, there's a photo of them old-timey now, so we can see what they fucking really look like.
01:12:12
And be like, oh. Whoa. Because they were, like, cute before. They look like a country couple, country singing couple.
01:12:19
And now, now. Her right eye is sliding off of her face. And he is not the man I used to know whatsoever.
01:12:29
I don't even recognize you. I mean, bitey ants, he kind of fucking looks like a turtle.
01:12:35
You'd be like, sir, do you know how to get to the courthouse? Get away from me, you.
01:12:40
You're like, what? Why? I don't like it. I didn't even say anything. I don't like it.
01:12:47
I don't like it. Right. Okay. So now they're like, scam time. So instead of just stealing, so he was doing this thing where he would go to cattle auctions
01:12:59
buy the horse, write a bad check, take the horse, and then they'd be like, give us the fucking horse back, you idiot.
01:13:06
Yeah. And so it didn't work. So instead, he was like, you know what I'm going to do?
01:13:11
I'm going to get hitchhikers and hobos. I'm going to bring them to the cattle auctions
01:13:15
and make them buy the horses and then take it. Has he ever thought of just getting a job?
01:13:23
It's so much easier. Is it? He could be a mailman. He could be a fucking hat salesman or he could be a dentist.
01:13:34
Okay, so that didn't work, blah, blah, blah. But then he was like, oh, here's a better idea.
01:13:40
I'm going to pick up these drifters and hitchhikers. I'm going to say to them, I'll pay you money, stay in my house,
01:13:46
and I'm going to help you open a bank account and get your shit together and you're going to buy these cattle for me.
01:13:53
So he would open bank accounts for them and then they would go write the bad checks
01:13:56
and by the time they figured it out, those hitchhikers and drifters were gone, so they didn't know it was from Ray, even though he always did that.
01:14:03
I don't know. Okay. Listen, it was a long time ago. Yeah. Okay. Things went a little slower back then.
01:14:09
Right. He got away with a bunch, stealing a total of $32,000 with phony bank accounts and bad checks.
01:14:16
Wow. Until one of his victims, Gerald Perkins, is interrogated and exposes Ray's crime.
01:14:24
raised arrested sent to jail blah blah blah when he's released from prison he does the thing where he's
01:14:30
like well now I just can't leave any witnesses oh yeah so so then he would have he would do all this shit
01:14:40
and then after that he would kill them with a single shot to the back of the skull
01:14:44
with a 22 caliber marlin bolt action rifle once the livestock had been purchased and
01:14:50
sold off that's his new scheme wow yeah what just like they'd be like i'm back from the auction sir yeah walking into the corral like
01:15:01
all at their house yeah i think at the house they would do that or a back you know the barn in the
01:15:05
back jesus christ so this went on for guess how long oh please four weeks 20 years no what i mean
01:15:19
20 years until 1989 but sorry so because no brag but i was in the 4-h and i showed sheep at the fair
01:15:31
thank you it's one of my proudest accomplishments and uh i guess he would go to different auction places then right because these planes they're
01:15:45
getting ripped off even though it's random people like the the hobo that just took a shower and had
01:15:51
his hat replaced or whatever i mean they're not nobody's catching on for that long shit and they're
01:15:58
disappearing too but they were drifters they didn't have family looking for them so right
01:16:02
kind of a perfect thing. And then, okay, so then in 1889, a 57-year-old drifter named James McCormick is like,
01:16:11
hey guys, I was just almost shot and killed by those old-timey, like, innocent-looking old people
01:16:18
you have over here, Thay and Ray Copeland. And they were like, we thought he was up to something no good.
01:16:24
Because they were kind of on to him at this point with the forging check shit. This guy escaped? He escaped.
01:16:30
I think they pulled a gun on him and he fucking skedaddled Wow Yeah Skedaddled is the perfect word Since this whole thing is like a weird Andy Capp cartoon for Christ sake So they knew Ray history so they got enough evidence to get a search warrant for his farm
01:16:52
So they search his farm for like a week, and they don't find anything. And then they're like, doesn't he own another farm?
01:16:59
And so they go search that farm, and they don't find anything. Just kidding. they a week-long search okay turns up three bodies on a nearby farm in ludlow
01:17:09
three corpses were buried in the barn and shallow graves they'd all been shot in the head with a 22
01:17:15
um they were identified as jimmy dale harvey he's 27 paul cowart he's 21 and john freeman 27 all
01:17:24
transients who had last been seen working for copeland so young too i know and later investigators
01:17:29
uncovered another corpse in the same barn, Wayne Warner, who's a drifter who spent his last moments
01:17:34
with Ray Copeland. And the final body was Dennis Murphy, 27, another one of Copeland's business associates
01:17:42
whose remains are found in a well on another farm. Also found in the Copeland home
01:17:48
with these two was a list of 24 names of farm helpers. And the list is written by Faye.
01:17:56
And they find the rifle used to shoot the men and five of the murder victims that Faye had written had exes next to them,
01:18:03
and it's each one who had been killed. Wow. She just fucking exed them out. Well, so she could keep track.
01:18:10
I mean, look. Listen. She's a business lady. So wait, were they people that they were going to kill?
01:18:17
I think people that had worked for them at some point. Oh, okay. And the exes were the people that they had killed.
01:18:23
So the five murder victims had exes next to them, as did seven more people who were never found.
01:18:29
whoa seven plus five is 12. yeah and i'm like who's you who lives there right now go dig in your
01:18:40
backyard oh my god it's got to be mcmansions at this point right dig dig dig one here's
01:18:46
like really disturbing okay most disturbing piece of evidence that showed that faye was in on the
01:18:51
whole thing is that she had made a handmade quilt out of the dead victim's clothing no
01:19:01
faye faye i want it to be on your side yeah i want it to be on your side and that's the gift
01:19:10
for the hometown murder and you have to put it on your bed fuck i know isn't that disturbing
01:19:20
That's disgusting. I know. And insane. These people are, because they have three farms.
01:19:27
You can buy quilt material, you cheap bastards. It's so creepy. Okay. That's weird.
01:19:36
It's Ed Geany. It is. Faye's offered a deal if she would help find the additional bodies,
01:19:41
but she was like, I didn't even know he was killing anyone. Oh. Yeah. They were arraigned on five counts of murder on November 1, 1990,
01:19:50
Faye, who's 69 at this point, goes on trial, says that Ray committed the murders without her knowledge
01:19:55
and that she had suffered from battered women's syndrome. But there's all the evidence against her,
01:20:00
like her fucking handwritten list with her handwritten X's and the quilt, you know?
01:20:05
Right. And in 1990, she's sentenced to death by lethal injection for four of the murders in life without prison for the fifth.
01:20:13
So she's like the oldest woman ever to be convicted or to be sent to death. Shit.
01:20:17
But wait. on March 7, 1991, 76-year-old Ray went to trial. He's found guilty of all five murders sentenced to death as well.
01:20:25
He tried to plead insanity, but everyone was like, bullshit, dude. You can't plead insanity when you've been committing crimes for 92 years.
01:20:35
You clearly got over it at some point if you ever were. And then apparently after he got convicted,
01:20:44
he never asked about Faye again. He never fucking inquired as to how his wife was doing.
01:20:49
He was using her for 60 years? I guess so. Damn. Bitey, snappy motherfucker. So although they were both convicted to death,
01:21:02
Ray died in 1993 of natural causes while waiting to be executed. And in 1999, Faye's, so all of these women's groups, you know,
01:21:10
argued about the battered women's syndrome, which is like, we don't really know.
01:21:14
Fair enough. Fair enough. I don't know. Yeah you don know Terrible things were happening on that farm for sure So her sentence is commuted to life in prison
01:21:28
And she was no longer a threat in 2002. She suffered a stroke. So she is paroled, she was paroled and moved to a nursing home in her hometown of Harrison, Arkansas,
01:21:42
where she died of natural causes in 2003 at the age of 83. and there's a photo of the
01:21:48
five guys that we know were the victims yeah and that is your fucking friends Ray and Faye Copeland
01:21:58
everyone wow that's intense old people farm stuff old people killing also farm stuff
01:22:08
you know like that's why all farms are like at the end of a long road set back away from people
01:22:14
let's change things so farms have to be like next to each other close to the road and next to each other
01:22:20
all the houses have to be real close and then you can just let your animals go do what they
01:22:25
want back behind can we show you guys a photo of this oh yes before we because we're so in love with
01:22:33
ourselves for picking this prize for the hometown can we have a still of what it is
01:22:38
that's the lid that's the lid of this gorgeous jewelry box valued at over $20,000. There's Vince!
01:22:51
That's Vince, everybody! Yeah, yeah. It's a box. It's full of candy. We wrote some shit in it.
01:23:00
It's amazing. It's fun. Who's not drunk has a quick hometown. Am I picking or am I picking?
01:23:11
It's your picking because you've been on a roll. Get up here quick. Sorry. There's Vince.
01:23:17
Go to Vince. I want to pick people in the middle of the aisle. I always do that.
01:23:22
Yesterday, I picked a pregnant girl in the middle of the aisle, and we didn't realize
01:23:26
she was pregnant, and Karen goes, hurry up. I was like, pick up the pace. She's rolling down the aisle, and I was just like, come on, lady.
01:23:33
I'm not pregnant. I'm not pregnant. Oh, hi. Brooke, hi, Brooke. Hi, it's Brooke, everybody.
01:23:42
It's Brooke. Go right now. Go right here. That's Sarah for Brooke. Hello. Don't not clap because you didn't get picked.
01:23:50
Okay. Where are you from? I'm from a little town called Sedalia. It's like halfway between.
01:23:56
Wow. Nice. They all came tonight. Randomly, somebody from Sedalia sitting right next to us.
01:24:00
Oh, my God. We didn't even know they were going. Sedalia strong. Hell, yeah. Sweet.
01:24:05
We like murder. Good. Okay. So, long story short, I live halfway between Kansas City and St. Louis.
01:24:11
This is actually. Oh, sorry. A story from St. Louis. Okay. Current day happening right now.
01:24:15
Have you guys heard of Pam Hupp? We just did it last night. It's my only hometown.
01:24:21
That's okay. Do it. Do it. Okay. Well, if you guys don't know about Pam Hupp, you guys can see what you said about.
01:24:26
It's fucking bananas. Crazy, crazy. This woman worked in insurance, basically, had a lot of shady shit going on whenever she
01:24:34
worked, became friends with this woman, kind of lost touch with her until this woman gets
01:24:38
diagnosed with cancer. All of a sudden, Pam wants to be best friends with her again.
01:24:43
Pam drives her back and forth from chemo, is really, really clingy with her, gets made the beneficiary of her life insurance instead of her husband.
01:24:52
They mail the certified letter. Before it even gets delivered, her friend gets murdered.
01:24:58
So Pam basically pins it on her husband. This is all alleged. She hasn't been convicted yet.
01:25:03
But anyways, she picked a night that her husband was always gone, stabbed her a whole bunch of times,
01:25:09
husband goes to jail spends a couple of years in jail stabs her 55 times lots and lots of times
01:25:15
yeah um anyways uh husband had an alibi the whole time no evidence against him he gets out of jail
01:25:21
uh in the meantime she gets all this life insurance money does not give it to the daughters
01:25:26
which is what she was allegedly supposed to do with it um they asked her why haven't you given
01:25:30
this money to the daughters oh well because my mom just died of alzheimer's and i'm very busy with
01:25:35
that mom didn't die of alzheimer's uh mom took a whole bunch of ambien took it on her own um and
01:25:41
got uh tripped off of her balcony but the rails on her balcony are broken and the people who
01:25:48
investigated it said that a normal-sized woman could never have broken through those so she gets
01:25:53
found on the ground outside there mind you the day before uh whenever pam brought her mom back to the rest home where she lives she goes my mom really really tired she not going to be down for dinner or breakfast Don worry about her Don check on her She fine That what everyone says about their elderly parents She very tired Please please don check on her I paying for her to stay
01:26:12
Don't check on her. I'm paying for you. She's fine. So anyways, gets ruled just accidental. Not anything
01:26:19
suspicious going on with that. Time goes by. The husband gets out of jail. Then all of a sudden,
01:26:24
they get a 911 call that Pam has been the victim of a home invasion. Somebody had gotten into her
01:26:30
car, held a knife to her throat. She ran inside. They chased her inside. She unloaded a clip,
01:26:36
killed them with a handgun. Yeah. All this stuff keeps happening to this woman. So anyways,
01:26:43
it turns out to be a disabled man that lives in a local area. And they believe that she told him
01:26:49
that she worked for a television program like Dateline and wanted to pay him $1,000 to be in a reenactment.
01:26:55
He has $900 of cash in his pocket when they find his body, sequential bills. She also has a $100 bill on her that is in sequence with those bills.
01:27:04
But that happens all the time. That's just no big deal. And then also they were like, wait a second, I think we got a 911 call recently
01:27:12
where a woman said that a creepy-ass lady picked her up in an SUV saying that she wanted to pay her $1,000
01:27:19
to be in a reenactment for Dateline. She stayed sexy and didn't get murdered. She got out of the car,
01:27:25
but they reviewed traffic footage and it was Pam Hupp's SUV that pulled the woman in.
01:27:30
So they keep postponing her trial. She hasn't been on trial yet, but she's 100% guilty.
01:27:37
She said it. 100% allegedly guilty. Yes, totally guilty. I think you fucking earned that.
01:27:45
Brooke, you nailed that shit. Yay! Brooke, everyone! Thank you so much. That was awesome.
01:27:54
So good. Oh, my God. That was amazing. You guys... Don't jump her and take that box.
01:28:01
You guys, this has been truly such a perfect show. You have been an amazing, amazing audience.
01:28:07
Thank you. Thank you so much. It's so much fun. We're so lucky that we get to do this as a job.
01:28:14
We can't freaking believe it. It's all because of you guys. It's such a, it's a very, it's a very strange sensation to start this podcast in George's apartment with her and I talking casually and usually very inaccurately about true crime.
01:28:30
And to have it explode in this way and to have you guys just come and be this community that you are turning yourselves into.
01:28:37
It is an amazing thing to be a part of. Thank you so much for doing this with us.
01:28:42
We can't, I know. It's amazing. Yes, thank you. So stay sexy. And don't hit. Bye, you guys.
01:28:52
Thank you. Bro, from the show last night to this drive, why is it never chill? Because this is our life.
01:29:04
Backstage, on the road, it's loud, messy, real. And that's the best part. Whole crew, no plan, just moving.
01:29:12
Good thing Nissan builds for that kind of chaos. Not just test tracks, real life scenes, late nights, road trips, all of it.
01:29:19
That's why it holds up. Nissan was ranked number one in initial quality among mainstream brands by J.D. Power.
01:29:26
Yeah, you can tell. 2026 Nissan Rogue built for what really happens. For J.D. Power 2025 U.S. Initial Quality Study Award information, visit jdpower.com slash awards.
01:29:37
Awards based on 2025 model year, newer models may be shown. This episode is brought to you in part by Vital Farms.
01:29:43
Have you noticed that the egg section at the grocery store has gotten very complicated lately?
01:29:47
But Vital Farms makes it simple. Pasture-raised eggs traceable to the farm. Their hens have outdoor access year-round with fresh air and sunshine and forage on rotated pastures with local grasses.
01:29:58
Every carton can be traced back to the farm it came from so you can see the pasture where the hens live by visiting vitalfarms.com.
01:30:05
Look for the black carton in the egg aisle and visit vitalfarms.com to learn more.
01:30:09
Vital Farms. Good eggs, no shortcuts. Goodbye. I tell myself, it's not about comparing.
01:30:15
But then I start wondering, what can they lift? Are they adding more weight to their barbell than I am?
01:30:20
And suddenly, I'm not training. Then I realize my journey is not theirs. I've earned every step.
01:30:26
So I smile. My smile is the shape resilience takes to keep me moving. To put more smiles out into the world, Colgate has supported female athletes for over 50 years with the Colgate Women's Games,
01:30:37
the nation's longest running indoor track and field series for girls and women. Colgate, your smile is your strength.