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Terms and conditions apply. See pandora.net for more details. Goodbye. Goodbye. My favorite murder
00:01:36
Hello! Hello! And welcome to My Favorite Murder. That's Georgia Hardstart. That's Karen Kilgareth.
00:01:49
Let's do voices like this the whole time. Okay, let us tell you about true crime.
00:01:56
that's my robot voice that's my movie phone don't you hate when those recordings say I
00:02:06
like talk as if they're a person I didn't understand that when you're like calling your doctor
00:02:12
it's like you are not human can you say that again I didn't understand it you're a monster machine
00:02:19
I like when there's one in my car no brag where you can press a button and then you can say, call Laura Kilgareff, whatever. And I try to talk like the machine so it understands me.
00:02:31
Because every time I'll go, call Laura Kilgareff. And it goes, do you want to call Laura Kilgareff?
00:02:39
Like, it doesn't, it doesn't care how I'm pronouncing it. It's not taking in that. It
00:02:44
only does it its way. I'm scared. I won't use Siri. Is that what it's called? I won't use any
00:02:50
of those Alexa, Alexi and dots and Alexi is the Russian version. That's when you go straight into
00:02:59
the office with it. I was looking for new microwaves. This is thrilling content. And
00:03:04
they make them now where you can do it with your like phone. So you can be like,
00:03:10
but that doesn't make it because if you like put a mac and cheese in the microwave and like three
00:03:15
hours later, you're like, now heat that up. Because you're at the microwave when you put
00:03:19
the thing in there. So it doesn't make any sense to be like, I'm on my way home. And this morning
00:03:23
when I left for work, I put the meatloaf in the microwave. Right. So I can zap it for three minutes.
00:03:30
Oh, what a world. Also, that is that thing where I got a new TV and they make you download an app
00:03:36
to set the TV up. No, it's impossible to fucking use a TV these days. And also, I don't want to
00:03:43
get involved. This is just this part of my life of technology in my life. I don't want there's no
00:03:49
app. I'm not I don't need that on my phone to help me with the TV, which is the thing I'm trying to
00:03:54
watch to not look at my phone. Right. Did you make it away from the phone? Did you make Jay or
00:03:59
millennial person help you with it? Or would you figure it out? Download the app? No, I could do it
00:04:06
myself. I can download the app all by myself. The great Tyler Perry play that I love so much.
00:04:13
funny stop at the top and then let's get into the natural conversation in natural speaking voices
00:04:21
you know what i really like are those podcasts that are um that are read by actors have you ever
00:04:29
the true crime ones do it every once in a while where it's like yeah yeah yeah it's we got this person to read their diary entries and stuff no no no there's some that
00:04:38
are hosted by people who are clearly actors playing the part of like of the host of like
00:04:43
don't you think that's interesting janet it's it's one of the weirdest choices in podcasting
00:04:49
podcasting still figuring out its legs i feel like i feel like everyone was like oh shit we
00:04:54
can make money off of that so they just like threw everything at it and then they went let's
00:05:00
get um you know because this is just basically an audio experience so let let's get the most
00:05:04
distancing, cold voice of an actor that we can get. Right. Let's get one. I think you said this once where it was like, that actor is known for being gorgeous.
00:05:14
Why are you casting them for their voice? Yeah, we don't. We want to see your beautiful face become lively and emotive.
00:05:25
Yeah. Go bring your beautiful face to the screen place where it belongs and leave us
00:05:30
cave dwelling podcasters alone. We have faces for podcasting. We are here for the not beauty contest.
00:05:39
We're here for the for the voice beauty contest and not face beauty. You're not going to go and cast us podcasters in a movie because of our podcasting experience.
00:05:51
It's not going to go the other way around. So stay out of our. Because guess what You can do this It all just talk Just talking and reading other people work You can do this Oh no that actually literally exactly what they can do It called acting
00:06:06
Now, this is, speaking of which, because oftentimes here in quarantine, I forget to put on the internet at all.
00:06:13
Now, does this happen to you? This is very private. But I'll say it to you and to the other people.
00:06:17
I'm literally sweating. Like my pits are, I'm sweaty right now. So I... Do you ever find that your pits smell like the thing
00:06:23
that you ate the most the day before? so like yesterday I made tacos and then today I was just like who's
00:06:28
is the neighbor making tacos and it's like no it's me no I have a similar that doesn't happen to me but my pets
00:06:35
always do smell like pizza like when I have VO it's to me it's like but it's like the pizza
00:06:41
you'd get in high school at the like student body meeting so like square oily greasy pizza
00:06:49
and it's like you can have cheese or pepperoni that's all they have right and oil
00:06:54
Do you know that this is a fetish subset that we are playing into right now? Food.
00:07:01
Pit talk. Food body smells. Oh, pit talk. All right. I think they have pretty cute armpits, I will say.
00:07:09
Oh, yeah? Is that a thing? Do people have unattractive armpits? I've never thought of my just grasping at something to feel good about myself.
00:07:17
If you had to name three beautiful parts of your body, it would be armpits. God damn it.
00:07:26
What are you doing? Who are you impeaching these days? Fucking man. Oh, man. Just one person.
00:07:35
Let's not get into the thing that is sitting on all of our backs like a little terror demon.
00:07:43
I was I was I hate. And you know this to use the term doom scrolling because it popped up.
00:07:49
And now literally every person is saying it constantly. But it's very accurate. to the and I did it so much last night I scared myself and became convinced someone was in the
00:07:59
house oh my god and then I looked over and George could not have been more stretched out and like
00:08:04
just chilled out and then I was just like it's if she barks because someone closes a car door
00:08:11
down the street then you don't have to worry about somebody being in the house right now
00:08:15
nothing says more that it's in your head than your dog being stretched out and and like realizing
00:08:19
that the real world in your house, at least, is safe right now. Except I got up and just did a check because I was so freaked out and the front door was
00:08:28
unlocked. So I was like, maybe that was it might have been my subconscious going, hey, hey, hey,
00:08:33
get up off this couch for one second. But but also it is because Frank snores in this very bizarre way that sometimes sounds
00:08:42
like someone is trying to scare you behind you. Like he it's he's totally silent.
00:08:47
And then he's like, and he makes this like demon noise. And I was like, I get all tense and I'm like, oh, it's fucking Frank.
00:08:56
Anyway, I keep hearing I keep thinking I hear Elvis about to throw up. He would do that.
00:09:05
He threw up a lot because he would he ate too fast and he ate everyone's food. And Siamese are like prone to that.
00:09:11
So you could tell when he was about to throw up because he would just make these monstrous gagging noises.
00:09:19
And then it kind of sounds like a toilet backing up or something. So I keep hearing them, not a lot, and going, oh, no.
00:09:27
And then be like, oh, I wish he'd throw up. That's how he's making his presence known.
00:09:32
Sometimes it's like people are in the afterlife and they'll send a beautiful butterfly or whatever.
00:09:37
But Elvis is like. someone was like, whenever my mom said, whenever I see a dragonfly, that'll be like someone
00:09:44
posted that on my comments, which I thought was really sweet. So whenever you see a dragonfly,
00:09:48
but mine is whenever you hear retching, whenever you have a sound of retching. When you instinctively are trying to grab like a newspaper or something to throw down underneath.
00:10:01
Yeah, exactly. Or to put them not on the bed. And then just I think maybe as a tribute, Mimi
00:10:06
in the middle of the night the other night threw up right between Vince and I on our bed
00:10:10
she is you know what that's so beautiful of her it's like she wrote you a poem that's a cat version
00:10:19
of like here says eulogy yeah speaking of doom one of like a historical part of this podcast
00:10:27
is closing. I'm sure you've heard Cafe 101 where we created this podcast and where we became friends
00:10:37
and sat for hours drinking coffee and talking about true crime and then let's start
00:10:42
a podcast. What would it be? It fucking all happened at Cafe 101 in Hollywood and they're
00:10:48
closing. They're closing but I can't imagine someone else. It's such a perfectly
00:10:54
renovated space. It's such a great. Like, it really was day and night kind of a hotspot. Yeah. And such a cool hang place.
00:11:03
If you've seen the movie Swingers, it's where they go when they're drunk and there's that
00:11:07
beautiful scene. I just one of my favorite scenes of what's his name? Vince Vaughn going,
00:11:12
you grows up and you're good. The neighbors has played a food. I couldn't touch it.
00:11:18
It's like one of my favorite scenes. That's the 101. Yes. Pre pre renovation too. It was this
00:11:25
Rad little place. I'm so bummed for it. They had the best fucking tuna melt ever.
00:11:30
We went there. We made people meet us there. Yeah, we had meetings there in the beginning.
00:11:36
Took many meetings there. We also, that was a great place to spot famous people who were just trying to be chill.
00:11:44
Right. Loved that. Yeah. So that's closed. Oil Can Harry's is closing, too. I know.
00:11:51
No more line dancing in Studio City for gay men over 70. Best bar Such a bummer That was one of those places that had been there so long and it was such a like it was such a you know like an old tortoise of a place in Studio City that it was it was a gay bar that had line dancing but then basically hung around long enough to become hip
00:12:13
Yeah. And then the young people wanted to go there. And it was like divey enough that it wasn't you didn't it wasn't pretentious.
00:12:20
Right. I love that place. It's too bad. And they had karaoke upstairs. It's very sad and shocking. And they're, you know, that part of things where it's like, whenever we all talk about when everything gets normal again, or when everyone has the vaccine or whatever, it's gonna be a whole nother landscape. I mean, who knows what it'll look like.
00:12:41
We all have a lot on our shoulders right now. We have we have covid fear. We have governmental takeover fear. We have violence fear. We have extreme violence here. Extreme. So extremist fear.
00:12:56
Extremist fear and people rationalizing and justifying extremism fear, which is very upsetting to watch people make excuses or say it's fine or what I mean, there's call it a revolution when that's not what that is.
00:13:08
No, it's lies. It's total lies. It's anarchy. Here's the good news. On PBS, they have rebooted All Creatures Great and Small, the series.
00:13:21
Okay. And it is, if you need to run, and you do, away from modern reality, this series takes place in the Scottish countryside.
00:13:32
So it is the background is bright green rolling hills. And it is a young man who is becoming a country veterinarian.
00:13:40
OK. And I don't know what more you motherfucking want from me than a recommendation like that,
00:13:46
because my sister is the one who actually was like, you need to watch this. It's going to make you feel better.
00:13:50
Yeah. And it really, really did. It's like calming. It's it's soothing. It's visually audio.
00:13:56
All of it. It's so good. That sounds perfect for our times. Yes. You know what I'm watching?
00:14:00
That's kind of the exact opposite, but still soothing in its messiness that I had.
00:14:07
I just Vince and I are binge watching. I'd never watched it before. It's the original British version of Shameless.
00:14:15
Oh, did you watch that? I never have. No. First of all, you have to put subtitles on.
00:14:20
It's Manchester. It's the best accent, but I can't understand half of it. And like the accent, I can't understand.
00:14:27
And also half the words aren't things that we say. But right. So it's fucking brilliant. It is so good and charming and lovely and all the siblings.
00:14:39
I want to hold them. But I've never seen that. I've never seen the American version of Shameless.
00:14:43
It's great. Is it OK? Yeah. Yeah. William H. Macy, Emmy Rossum there. It's good.
00:14:49
I mean, this is better. I haven't seen. I can't even say that for sure. But I promise you.
00:14:55
It's so Karen. It's you would love it. Where what are you streaming it on? I think it's Hulu.
00:15:02
Let me look. Hold on. Hulu? Hulu comes out with the hits. You got to say. They do have a lot of good stuff.
00:15:08
They bring it. They bring it. Where do I find out? Netflix. That's not right, is it?
00:15:13
Netflix. The old one? British? I don't know. Netflix. Shameless. No, that's not it.
00:15:20
It's Hulu. It's on Hulu. Okay. Shameless. British version. You're going to love it.
00:15:26
It's nuanced and funny and beautiful. and sweet and sad because they're like they don't have any money yeah yeah i mean it's really a
00:15:37
beautiful show and it's like it's like all the horrible things that are happening in the world
00:15:41
it's like it's like concentrated the horrible things that are happening to them and they're
00:15:46
this but they're this like family unit that sticks together yeah except for the dad who's a piece of
00:15:50
shit but he's so fucking funny right that's which is how it is sometimes and we uh i was just gonna
00:15:58
to say we love Manchester so very much that we have done so many or several amazing shows.
00:16:05
Those audiences were the greatest. That town is the coolest town. Coolest. What a beautiful, cool town.
00:16:13
Our cab driver from the airport to our hotel was one of the hip. We didn't even belong in his
00:16:20
presence. He was so cool. He knew all the musicians. He used to play with this band. He used to go
00:16:25
to the what's the club called? Hacienda. Hacienda. And we were like, oh, sorry, we're just these American assholes.
00:16:33
Well, it's so funny because you asked that question. We're just like, oh, we're excited to be in Manchester.
00:16:37
We, you know, we kind of wanted to let him know that we got the coolness and we knew the history.
00:16:42
But then it was just like, it was like, oh, yeah, I used to hang out down there.
00:16:45
Like he was like, yeah, I was here for all that. I lived it. The movie 24 hour party, people, if you know, a little intro, fucking great movie.
00:16:53
and it takes place with all that noise. Yep. And Steve Coogan, who's the funniest best.
00:16:59
He's the best. Okay. Let's get out of the UK. Good recommendations. And then let's go.
00:17:05
What else are you watching? I'm switching around. Here's the problem. I keep starting shows with subtitles.
00:17:16
So I started Ragnarok. I think that's how you pronounce it, which is on Netflix.
00:17:20
And it's almost like a teen. It's really cool. really good but i kept i keep watching it going like oh this is almost like a riverdale it's like
00:17:28
the norwegian riverdale where it's like youngsters that are realizing their uh their
00:17:34
norse gods and norse heroes it's great but my problem is especially with the fucking
00:17:41
troubles of today i'm watching it and then if you look down check twitter to make sure that you know
00:17:48
that nothing's been breached, then you look up and you don't know what's going on
00:17:55
because you missed They talk so fast and you have to just read constantly for 30 minutes to an hour But that show is great if you looking for anything
00:18:05
Ragnarok, I believe. Ragnarok. R-A-G-A-N-A-R-O-K. Okay. I mean, it's the only thing that's going to be even shaped like that on Netflix.
00:18:15
So you'll find it. And it's also really popular. Okay, cool. So it'll be popular.
00:18:19
Did you watch the Ripper documentary on Netflix? I did. Fuck. Oh, my God. That thing is on. God, they do it.
00:18:28
They did. They did. Because the first four episodes and I love it. The first three didn't even introduce the man, the actual killer.
00:18:36
It was like about what happened and the victims and the time and place, which I didn't understand, was so, so vital to the story.
00:18:44
And then the last episode is just like a little bit about who he was, which I thought was great.
00:18:49
and about how poorly the investigation was done. They laid it out beautifully and in this way where you meet,
00:19:00
the very first person you meet is the child of the first woman who was murdered.
00:19:05
And then you start, so he's first and he's just like, she never came home type thing.
00:19:10
Him and his sister went out to look for their mother because she didn't come home.
00:19:15
And he, it looked like he was maybe five or six. It's so heartbreaking and so beautiful. But then you get into it's from the police perspective and how they put together.
00:19:25
Well, if she was standing here and it's this time of night and she was in this bar, that means she's a prostitute.
00:19:30
And they keep saying the word over and over. And they they keep or they call them good time girls in the newspaper.
00:19:37
And then they point out the fact that all the jobs, the industry jobs have disappeared from that town.
00:19:43
so it's these women who are trying to feed their children they're not and which is like the problem
00:19:49
you get when you talk about you know women who are quote prostitutes is that you don't take into
00:19:54
consideration the circumstances they're in and that label oh and then the first victim saying
00:20:02
like the first thing they said about her in the press was she was a divorcee as if that had
00:20:07
fucking anything to do with what happened to her i that struck me immediately that she was a you
00:20:12
know, 23 year old divorcee with five kids. And it's like, what does her being calling her divorce
00:20:18
was obviously a way for them to say something about her morality. You know what I mean?
00:20:22
Yes, correct. As opposed to when you when you hear about it a little bit more, the reason she
00:20:28
had to leave her husband is because he was a terrible drunk. Of course, he also it was that
00:20:33
that thing of of he didn't he was out of work or whatever. So he's drinking, he's beating her up.
00:20:39
And then he hits the kids. So they get divorced. It's like this thing where suddenly she's taking the hit for these circumstances that are totally beyond her control.
00:20:48
And then she's just doing what it takes to survive. And that's that thing that I think slowly but surely everyone's eyes are opening to.
00:20:56
Because someone tweeted and was like, I watched this and I kept going sex worker, sex worker.
00:21:00
And it's like, no, no, no. When you watch this, you have to not to correct that.
00:21:04
Because that's they're exactly right to say that from 2021. Right. That's what we're doing now.
00:21:09
But what you have to do is go into 1970 or whenever it was. This was that time. Go into that world.
00:21:17
Understand where everybody who is now in their 60s or whatever, my age even, is coming from where these men in the police department, whether they cared or not, dictated whether your case got solved.
00:21:31
The power that these older white men had who had never. It's just like they're. And the point was, the reason we're saying sex workers now is because when they said prostitute back then, they meant something completely different than what we mean today.
00:21:46
They meant don't care about this. Yes. And so when you hear the word prostitute and you get super upset and offended, that's why we're not using it anymore.
00:21:53
But you have to use that back then as what they said in the media and what they called them to show you how little they cared about these women.
00:22:01
or that just or even the uh either some of them didn't care some had like a real thing of like
00:22:08
how dare you know this kind of like i want to judge these women i want to push these women aside
00:22:12
and some of them didn't understand their own like implicit bias just from being in the position that
00:22:18
they were in some of them didn't get and then some did there was a couple of those cops who are kind
00:22:23
of you know in it and very affected by it and very much working against this entire system
00:22:30
Totally. It's just such a great they I those those documentary filmmakers are brilliant.
00:22:36
The way they laid that out. And by the time, oh, man, even having done the story.
00:22:41
I know. And knowing the story. First of all, there's definitely these pieces that I missed where I'm like, oh, I wish I'd known that.
00:22:47
I wish I'd read that. But here's what I remember is the part where those women in that area who are like, fuck you.
00:22:56
stop telling us because they did that just like they did in Canada during the Scarborough Rapist
00:23:02
when they tried to say women should now have a curfew. They gave women a curfew and women got
00:23:07
fucking. They were like, fuck you. Fucking you do a curfew. You're the ones that need killing women.
00:23:14
Yeah. Stop making women. You know, it's just so good. And yeah, there's so much to learn. And
00:23:19
there's so much good stuff in that. Definitely. And that's our episode for this week.
00:23:24
we covered the river the end okay also huge spoiler alert everybody but that's actually
00:23:31
been out for a while so i feel like all the people that would listen to this show have watched that
00:23:35
and you know one other thing i'd liked about it because vince was a little worried about watching
00:23:38
it because he's not as into true crime as i am but they didn't have to show a single gory image
00:23:43
there was not one single um like upset like upsetting of course but like nothing gory happened
00:23:50
You didn't see any crime scene photos that were upsetting. You didn't see anything like that.
00:23:55
It was done so subtly that it was... And the ones that they did show... were incredibly upsetting without being like graphic.
00:24:03
Yeah, you didn't see. Like there was one where she's just, her body was just like laying down the street
00:24:07
and they could just take pictures. That was a time where people could just walk up
00:24:12
to the crime scene too. It is like, is it that long ago? It doesn't seem, it's just crazy.
00:24:18
Yeah, watch The Ripper for sure. But I was going to say, guess what's starting today on Netflix?
00:24:25
The Night Stalker. Oh yeah. Excited for that? I'm so excited. Yes. there's so much gory shit that to me i'm a little afraid of gory it's the fucking the devil came to
00:24:38
earth and began to slay men women and children old young i mean that man not to feed into that
00:24:46
thing that he clearly loved to try to act like but his crimes are some of the worst when i did that
00:24:52
because i did him yeah you did and there's some that are you can't even talk about it it is so
00:24:58
disturbing. It is so awful. But the interesting or exciting thing to me is that I remember it.
00:25:05
I was there for it. So I'm excited to see, first of all, it's SoCal, but then it's the Bay Area.
00:25:14
And there's all those real home, close to home type of feelings. I can't wait. He definitely hit Irvine, I think, or close to Irvine where I'm from. But I think I was
00:25:26
I was too young to really know too much about what was going on. Yeah, 85. You were a baby.
00:25:31
I was five. Yeah, that's too young. I'm reading a book called How to Do Nothing.
00:25:38
That's really good. Who wrote that? It's this book by this woman named Jenny O'Dell.
00:25:46
And it's kind of philosophical in a really cool way. It's a book that's kind of like a self-help manual.
00:25:53
it's called how to do nothing resisting the attention economy oh so it's kind of this it's
00:26:00
it's really philosophical more than like a self-help book so it's pretty lovely and it
00:26:04
kind of puts you in this mindset of like what it means to actually take care of yourself it doesn't
00:26:10
mean making a to-do list and getting everything i have a self-help to-do list of like or a self-care
00:26:15
to-do list to get shit done and it's like yeah i don't that's just as stressful as a fucking
00:26:20
regular to-do list, you know? Yeah, that's right. That's really true. I'm enjoying it. I've just
00:26:27
started it, but it's a nice one so far. Oh, that sounds good. I'm actually listening to an audio
00:26:32
book that Banana Boy, Scotty Landis, recommended to me. And I'm so excited that he did because it's
00:26:38
so good. It's Petty, the Tom Petty biography. Really? And it's written by Warren Zanes,
00:26:44
who was in the Del Fuego, I believe. And so he's, it's a musician, but he is an unbelievably good writer.
00:26:52
So he's talking about Tom Petty's life and career, obviously. But the way he writes is so, like, I was listening to it this morning while I was dying my roots.
00:27:05
And there was lines that he would read and like a descriptor or a kind of like bringing together what it was like for him to grow up with the family he had in the 50s in Gainesville, Florida.
00:27:18
And it's just these amazing descriptions where I'd be like, yeah, I was like cheering the writing.
00:27:24
Wow. Yeah. Powerful. For a good book, and if you care about Tom Petty, which I believe any red-blooded American would, Warren Zane's biography of him is a beautifully, beautifully written book.
00:27:38
Oh, Vince is going to love that. Vince just loved Matthew McConaughey's autobiography.
00:27:44
Seriously, like the Beastie Boys biography is great. Vince loves shit like that.
00:27:48
So that's perfect. And he loves Tom Petty, of course, too. Yeah, he's good, Tom Petty.
00:27:53
He never stopped writing hit songs. He never. He started when he was like 20 and never stopped ever.
00:28:01
Isn't there? Yeah, over and over and over again. It's like the best songs you've ever heard.
00:28:06
Yeah. And in hanging out at Largo in the 2000s or whatever, Ben Montench, who was the keyboardist for the Heartbreakers, Tom Petty and the Heartbreakers, hung out there and played there a lot.
00:28:17
So I got to like meet him and talk to him and hang out with him. Wow. he is one of the coolest chillest dudes but also like when he gets up and plays the piano it is
00:28:29
such a vibe it is such a like yeah it's such something is happening in the room and like yes
00:28:34
and amazing and but he always has like this little smile on his face he's just like is the cool when
00:28:41
the first time i sat in the same booth as him i was just like what is this life i can't believe
00:28:45
He's one of the heartbreakers. That's so cool. Yeah. What else? One of our friends is back in the news, Dr. Love.
00:28:54
Remember the story of the young man? Well, he got out of jail. Tell us which one this was.
00:29:01
Tell everyone. Okay. Dr. Love is a story that I covered. I mean, how long ago was it?
00:29:08
Two years ago? I think a whole year. Yeah. Year and a half. Yeah. This is a pre-COVID event in all of our lives.
00:29:14
And he's a young man who was pretending to be a doctor to the point where he had opened doctor's offices in Florida, Florida.
00:29:25
Yeah. And he and he got caught and he got caught on the news and he then had his own press conference.
00:29:32
It was a real it was a real journey into the mind of someone who just really wanted to be seen and known as a doctor and was not qualified to be one in any way.
00:29:42
He went to jail for doing that, I think a couple times or at least once or whatever.
00:29:49
He got out of jail and then this just happened. He was arrested again on New Year Day Oh my God Because he worked for a shipping company and he started calling the clients of this company and just having them go ahead and wire the money directly into his bank account Sure
00:30:05
It's that easy. Yep. He got caught doing that. And then he went ahead and texted his boss saying, I'm doing everything I can to fix this situation.
00:30:14
I'm really sorry. No, you can't do it. You can't do it in the pretend like it was a minor, like a mix up.
00:30:23
Yeah. And then admit to it that basically by in text, you have to at least call.
00:30:28
So there's no paper trail. Good idea. Good point. Yes. For future for all our future felonies.
00:30:35
And it's I mean, yeah, it's the idea. And I know that, you know, oftentimes when we talk about the criminals that we talk about on the show, we're talking about intensely bad individuals, psychopaths, people that intend to hurt.
00:30:53
This is not the area that Dr. Love is in, in my opinion. Dr. Love is more of a person who is trying to force the fantasy in his head out into the world to make the world match what he wants it to be.
00:31:05
And there's nothing I relate to more than that. Like, I look, I've already pre-written what I want to be happening.
00:31:13
So could you all just please be doing the part I wrote you? You're saying the wrong line.
00:31:18
Oh, my God. I literally have seen this in action when we're doing an interview and you don't like the question that's been asked to us.
00:31:26
And then you just answer whatever question you think they should have asked us. Yeah.
00:31:30
That's an old trick. That's not my idea. I learned that long ago by the professionals.
00:31:35
Hell yeah. You don't answer the question they ask you. Jesus, what would it turn out to be if you did that?
00:31:42
You have to tell them what you want them to know the end. So I think he's in trouble again.
00:31:46
And I think he's going back. I think he has to go back Three hots and a cot We're sorry
00:31:53
I think it's Unfair That I have this kind of bias toward him Whereas he's a criminal just like other criminals
00:32:04
I don't know I feel like I get it I understand Sometimes you want to be a doctor so bad
00:32:12
You just wear the jacket You rent the office and you're like Come on, I got the posters
00:32:16
I've got the posters on the wall from the different medicines. There's a lot of the like there by the, in this podcast, there's a lot of like there by the grace of God go I.
00:32:24
But then there's for Karen some there by the grace of God I wish went I. Those are the other options I could have had.
00:32:33
If I didn't get myself together enough to be a podcaster, I absolutely would have rented some office space.
00:32:39
There's time. There's time. Oh, could that be my safety net? Is fraud? I want you to dream big, Karen.
00:32:45
Don't ever put yourself in a box. There's so many of us that are so afraid of having imposter syndrome when, in fact, Dr. Love, he has whatever the exact reverse, the 180 of imposter syndrome is, which is like, no, bitch, I am a doctor.
00:33:02
Do you think he's sitting in the cell right now going like, I guess I shouldn't have done that or I'll never do that again.
00:33:09
Fuck no. No, he's sitting in the cell going, I didn't actually do it. You're wrong.
00:33:13
Right. Or I did that wrong. I need to try harder next time. Next time I'm going to have them wire their money into a third account.
00:33:21
That's right. That doesn't have my name on it. Offshore, baby. Now should we do some exactly right news?
00:33:26
Okay, yay. I don't know if you guys know this, but we have a podcast network and it's growing and we love it.
00:33:31
And it's just a family. It's so fun. All these shows are doing so good and their people are really responding to them.
00:33:39
Thank you guys so much for supporting all of them because they're all little stars in their own departments.
00:33:45
Speaking of little stars in our department, Karen Kilgariff and Chris Fairbanks have a podcast called Do You Need a Ride?
00:33:56
Correct. And it's so much fun. And they had a crossover episode with Bananas, the other podcast that we have with weird, funny news hosted by Scotty Landis and Kurt Braunler.
00:34:11
And so Scotty was on Do You Need a Ride this week. That's right. And it's really, really funny. And Scotty is just a joy to be around.
00:34:18
He is. I said it to him on the show. It's just like you're you're maybe I didn't say to him on the show, but I did tell him I was like, you're just made to be a podcaster because you're great at bullshitting and chit chatting.
00:34:31
But also his speaking voice is just it's like ASMR. And did we ever talk about the fact that he looks like Paul Holes? We've talked about that, right?
00:34:40
No, he fucking looks exactly like like a younger Paul Holes. he's like Paul's nephew
00:34:46
Paul's like skateboarding nephew yes and then on the Bananas Instagram which is so funny because they're so good
00:34:54
at social media they posted the photos of when Kurt took he wanted to give the flightless bird the gift of flight
00:35:02
so they took a chicken on an air balloon hot air balloon and so there's photos of that on the Bananas
00:35:10
Instagram it's all been recorded it. Oh, also, this podcast will kill you. See, this podcast will kill you has been around since
00:35:20
day one. And so sometimes they don't get the love that they deserve, because they're a huge podcast
00:35:25
that does great. They're a true hit, but like, you know, they're a stalwart, so they don't get the
00:35:31
proper affection. So this week, they talk about the virus rubella, which is used to be one of my
00:35:38
favorite comedy references because it's like a very weird, obscure children's disease that I
00:35:43
used to love to throw around every once in a while. So that came out Tuesday. So listen to that. It's
00:35:52
waiting for you Speaking of smart funny brilliant women the podcast I Saw What You Did that came out recently with Millie and Danielle This week they cover the two movies and talk about the movie Bronson from 2008
00:36:06
and then the movie Wolf of Wall Street from 2013, which I can't wait to hear them talk about.
00:36:13
What a fucking movie. And the theme for these movies is not known for subtlety. I tried to watch Bronson once, and I think I'm going to listen to this podcast.
00:36:25
and then re-approach Bronson. I think that's smart. Because it was hard for me to get through.
00:36:31
So I think I'm going to listen to what they have to say about it and then re-approach with fresh eyes.
00:36:35
That's perfect. I Said No Gifts. The guest this week is none other than Amy Mann,
00:36:42
the incredible musician who wrote the theme song for I Said No Gifts. So there's this whole insular thing.
00:36:49
But I also wanted to mention, just in case you wanted to know more about Bridger.
00:36:53
She's written other songs, too. Obviously, I know that. Just kidding. The way that came out, it was like the amazing musician who wrote the theme song.
00:37:01
Oh, yeah. And also the entire soundtrack for Magnolia. And she's just incredible, obviously.
00:37:08
I mean, yeah. Yeah. I recently, I don't know how I didn't know this, but his Instagram, which is Bridger underscore W.
00:37:15
Did you know it's only photos of trash that he takes in the wild? The entire. Instagram feed is photos he finds of trash he's come upon in the world.
00:37:30
It is photo after photo of fucking weird trash. Bridger is truly one of the funniest people on the planet.
00:37:40
He is a renowned TV writer. Everybody that knows him loves him and knows he's the funniest.
00:37:48
We have a game night that we do with a group of our friends, and we play Quiplash.
00:37:52
Yeah. And we had it's the shit he does. But he so are we he and I both had the same question, which was a bad name for a U.S. Navy ship would be the USS blank.
00:38:04
And I wrote the USS bomb me. And this was the USS Shannon. And then, of course, he won that round.
00:38:14
We were all crying laughing. It was just like that's him in a nutshell. That's like Bridger is truly unique.
00:38:20
You've met him. He's so proper and he's like, you know, well dressed and very kind of subdued.
00:38:26
And then it's just photo after photo of trash. Yeah, it's I mean, I love that brain.
00:38:33
That's such a great brain to do that. He doesn't have to like do a big dance. No, I mean, he's just being funny.
00:38:39
And whether you join in or not is not his problem. He doesn't really care. It's the greatest.
00:38:44
So this is this is all leading up to our new announcement, which we're very, very excited about.
00:38:51
We tweeted about it yesterday, but it's so cool. The podcast Lady to Lady is now going to be on.
00:38:59
They've been around for a long time and now they're going to be on the Exactly Right Network.
00:39:04
And we are so thrilled to have them. Barbara Gray, Brandi Posey, Tess Barker. They're the three hosts.
00:39:11
They are all brilliant stand-up comics. Tess is an amazing journalist. Brandy is an amazing comedy show producer.
00:39:22
They're all great and very powerful women in their own ways. And now their amazing podcast that already has its own huge following is going to be on our network.
00:39:33
And so every Wednesday, they're going to have a comedic guest hang out in their adult treehouse.
00:39:37
They're going to play games. They're going to have advice and they're going to tell embarrassing stories and have all these tangents.
00:39:43
It's a really fun show. Some of their past guests include the great stand up Beth Stelling, my favorite murder friend of the show, Guy Branham, scam goddess Lacey Mosley, some of the great comedy minds of the 21st century.
00:39:58
They've had tons of people on that show. So, yeah, be sure to subscribe to Lady to Lady to hear all their new episodes on Wednesday.
00:40:05
and it's available on Stitcher, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts.
00:40:10
And definitely stick around to listen to their trailer at the end of this show. And then if you want to follow them on Twitter, they're at Lady2LadyComedy or Instagram at Lady2LadyComedy.
00:40:21
Welcome Lady2Lady with the Exactly Right family. Once we're finally able to have a party in the future, they're going to be a great addition to those parties.
00:40:28
This party is going to be, I say fall of 2022. Epic. This party is going to have everything.
00:40:37
And then we have a new Stay Sexy beanie and this really cute like winter woven sweater in the exactly.
00:40:44
Nope. In the state. In the. Where am I? In the My Favorite Murder store at MyFavoriteMurder.com.
00:40:50
So check out all the cute new and fun. Not just cute. Interesting new merch we have there all the time.
00:40:57
That's right. It's the merch just keeps coming. That's right. Always check in on that store.
00:41:01
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Use code MFM15 for $15 off your first purchase at thirdlove.com. Goodbye. So the story I'm going to do this week is the revenge of Miriam Rodriguez.
00:43:54
Okay. So basically what I'm about to tell you is a very boiled down version of this article that was published in December in the New York Times.
00:44:03
And it was entitled, she stalked her daughter's killers across Mexico one by one.
00:44:09
I saw that. I saw the headline, but I didn't read it. I like text it to myself and then forgot.
00:44:14
Okay. So I did. It was written by an investigative journalist named Azam Ahmed. You should absolutely read that original article. It's an unbelievable story. And he is an incredibly talented investigative reporter. His writing has twice been submitted for the Pulitzer Prize. It is an amazing read. And obviously, there's tons more details in this article. I'm giving you the CliffsNotes version.
00:44:40
Great. I'd like to thank listener LEL. Their Twitter handle is at ESLINZZZ. So they sent me the article the day it was published with the simple message. Have you seen this? Great. So yeah. So it was the simplicity of the of the of the question made me dive right in.
00:45:05
I also got information from The Guardian and The Wall Street Journal, Mexico News Daily and SocialistWorker.org.
00:45:15
OK, so this starts in 2014. 54 year old Miriam Rodriguez. And oh, that's the thing I want to say is, of course, pre-apologies for me taking French in high school and not Spanish.
00:45:28
So there's definitely going to be mispronunciations or just very white pronunciations.
00:45:33
my apologies um i'm gonna do my best i looked up a lot of these pronunciations but it's i
00:45:40
every time you go like i know how the lady said it in on the youtube pronunciation video yeah but
00:45:46
i don't have the guts to do what she did so yeah i understand just feel stupid okay 54 year old
00:45:52
miriam rodriguez lives with her family in a small orange house in san fernando uh which that's the
00:45:57
city in Tamaulipas, which is the state in Mexico. It's her and her husband, and she has three
00:46:04
children, Luis, Azalea, and Karen. So Miriam works really hard to support her family. She runs a
00:46:12
cowboy apparel shop called Rodeo Boots in town. And when she's not at that shop, she works as a
00:46:18
nanny for her family just over the border in Texas. Just to give you the sense of what's going
00:46:24
on in this area of Mexico, lots of bars and restaurants have closed because of the constant
00:46:31
shootouts and gang violence in that area. So the fact that they have this rodeo boots is really
00:46:38
something, and it must have been a pretty successful store because it was very difficult
00:46:43
for businesses to stay in business with the kind of violence that's happening there. So this is the
00:46:49
a very oversimplified explanation of the situation in this area of northern Mexico.
00:46:54
Very obviously very oversimplified. Yeah, definitely read Azama Med's article about this because he is actually an embedded
00:47:00
reporter. So he really knows it and explains it correctly. I'm just trying to give you the general sense because we all hear about like Mexican drug
00:47:09
cartels and gang violence in that way. But it's obviously it's incredibly it's layered.
00:47:16
It's old. is highly political and I have no true sense of it just in the simplified sense of what's in this
00:47:24
article. Okay, so the city of San Fernando sits in the northern part of the Mexican state of
00:47:29
Tamaulipas. That state shares its border with the southernmost point of Texas. And there's two main
00:47:35
highways that lead to the Mexico-Texas border that run through San Fernando. So San Fernando
00:47:41
is basically two hours away from the Mexico-Texas border. And because drug cartels
00:47:47
smuggle drugs into the U.S. using this highway, the location of the city of San Fernando has made it the subject
00:47:55
of cartel violence for decades. So this is actually a lot like murder in Bayou, that series that I told you about, where basically it was a tiny city, but because it was
00:48:05
on this highway in between New Orleans and Texas or whatever, that was just like...
00:48:12
Thoroughfare. Yeah, for drugs. And so same thing happening in San Fernando. In the 1990s, some local politicians
00:48:20
decided to enlist the cartel's help in securing and maintaining their power. But that cartel
00:48:26
slowly made their way into the political arena by demanding quotas in exchange for their help.
00:48:32
So they got public works contracts. They operated waterworks. They had transit and
00:48:37
municipal police contracts. Wow, like embedded. Yeah. So then in 2010, tensions between different factions within the Gulf cartel
00:48:45
over drug territories began to heat up. And so there was a split and the Zetas, who were a group within that group basically split off and turned on their bosses.
00:48:58
And so then the Mexican government tries to declare its own war on drugs and organized crime.
00:49:05
But by this time, the connections between government and the cartels is too strong.
00:49:10
And they can't just snuff out the cartels because they're already in power. And so according to the Wall Street Journal, from 2010 to about 2018, roughly 250,000 people have been murdered and about 37,000 are reported as disappeared that are victims of this war on crime that the government tried to wage on the cartels.
00:49:32
So former presidential candidate Josefina Vasquez Mota is quoted in The Guardian as saying, there are two governments here in Tamaulipas.
00:49:42
There's a government from 9 a.m. to 6 p.m. And then there's another one from 6 p.m. to 9 a.m.
00:49:48
Wow. The first was elected and the second imposes itself through kidnappings, extortion, disappearances, bullets and death.
00:49:55
Oh, my God. So that's just the general sense in the most oversimplified way. Right.
00:50:01
Of who of what's at play. So Miriam's son, Luis, has moved to the capital city, which is Ciudad Victoria, to open up his own store.
00:50:09
and her older daughter, Azalea, still lives in San Fernando, but she lives at her own house.
00:50:14
And then her younger daughter, 20-year-old Karen, lives at home with Miriam and her husband.
00:50:19
So when Karen isn't going to school, she helps her mom by working at their family store.
00:50:25
Okay, so on January 23, 2014, Karen's driving the family truck on her way home from working
00:50:30
at the boot shop and she pulls up to an intersection waiting to merge into traffic.
00:50:35
but before she can, two trucks pull up on either side of her and a group of armed men get out of
00:50:42
the trucks. They force their way into Karen's truck. One man gets behind the wheel and they
00:50:47
drive off with Karen as their hostage. Oh my God. So they take Karen back to the family house,
00:50:53
but no one else is home there. Miriam is up in Texas nannying. And so they tie Karen up,
00:51:00
they gag her and they throw her on the living room floor. And then to everyone's surprise,
00:51:04
there's a knock on the door. It's Karen's uncle's mechanic who came by to fix the family truck.
00:51:10
Fuck. So the the armed gang is caught off guard. So they now kidnap the mechanic as well.
00:51:17
But then eventually they end up letting him go. Do you know? Sorry. Are we I mean,
00:51:21
I talk about this. Are they targeted because they're like a family that owns a business or
00:51:25
is it just a random kidnapping? It doesn't say in this article or in in the other news stories that
00:51:31
I read, but it would make sense that because they own this business, that clearly they have money
00:51:36
to be tapped. I would assume, but that sounds like editorial. Yeah. So when Miriam comes home,
00:51:42
she finds Karen isn't there. Then the mechanic comes, tells her what happened. Miriam gets all
00:51:48
the details from the mechanic. And soon after the ransom calls begin. So an anonymous voice on the
00:51:55
other end of the phone threatens to harm Karen and come after the rest of the family. If the
00:52:00
Rodriguez's don't pay a ransom. So the family assumes that this is most likely the work of
00:52:06
the Zetas and they take it very, very seriously. And in fact, Miriam and her husband go to take
00:52:12
out a loan at the local bank to pay the ransom. These kidnappings are so common. There's a bank
00:52:19
dedicated to offering lines of credit for paying ransom. Holy shit. And then you wonder if they're
00:52:24
in on it too, because they're getting interest on ransom. I mean, it's not good when you have a
00:52:32
bank that's dedicated to ransom. That's how common kidnapping and this kind of stuff is.
00:52:37
That's horrifying. Yeah. So following the captor's instructions, Karen's father drops the money at a
00:52:44
spot near a health clinic. Then he's told to go to a local cemetery where he waits for Karen to be
00:52:50
released, she never comes. So this is just the first of several ransom payments the Rodriguez
00:52:56
family is forced to make. And each time they come up with the money, they leave it at the drop-off
00:53:01
location. And yet Karen never appears. So after months of this back and forth with false promises
00:53:08
and mounting ransom fees, Miriam's that's crazy. Yeah. Yeah. Miriam starts to get angry. She finally
00:53:15
finds a way to contact the Zetas directly and asks for a meeting. This is a middle-aged woman who's like, I'm going to call the cartel myself.
00:53:28
Surprisingly, they agree. So she goes to a restaurant in town called El Junior, is my way to pronounce it,
00:53:37
where she meets a member of the Zetas. He doesn't give his name. He's described as a slender young man with a clean-shaven face,
00:53:44
wearing a walkie-talkie on his hip. Miriam begs him to let Karen come home, but he informs her the Zetas have nothing to do with this kidnapping.
00:53:52
Instead he offers to help Miriam find Karen himself for a fee of So Miriam skeptical but she has no other choice So she agrees to pay him this fee And as the meeting ends she hears a voice on the walkie
00:54:07
calling the man by his first name, which is Sama. So in the days after their meeting,
00:54:13
Miriam calls Sama to check in and see how his hunt is going. But after a week, he stops answering her calls entirely. Meanwhile, she's still receiving calls from the people
00:54:24
claiming to be the abductors asking for more ransom money, usually to the tune of about $500.
00:54:30
And the family pays every fee, goes to every drop site. Karen has never returned. Their hope is
00:54:36
starting to wane. And one morning, a few weeks after their last ransom payment is made with no
00:54:42
results, Miriam comes downstairs and announces to Azalea that she believes Karen is never coming
00:54:48
back. She can feel it in her heart. She knows her daughter is dead. So she now vows to hunt down
00:54:55
every last person who's involved with her daughter Karen's disappearance. Okay, so now Miriam,
00:55:03
armed with just this man's first name and the memory of his face, scours her daughter's social
00:55:08
media trying to track down Sama. I also don't know if that's the correct way to pronounce Sama,
00:55:13
But I'm just saying it that way. She comes up empty handed. So she goes to the mechanic that that got kidnapped along with Karen that day. She describes Sam as a parents to him. And he confirms, yes, he was there that day that Karen was kidnapped. He was one of those men. So Miriam now knows that at least one of the people that she's looking for.
00:55:32
So she continues searching Facebook. And then one morning when she's lying on the couch, she she happens to run across a photo of Sama.
00:55:40
And in the picture, he's standing beside a young woman who's wearing a uniform for an ice cream shop.
00:55:47
So she digs around and she'll till she can find the name of this ice cream shop.
00:55:52
She finds out that it's located in Ciudad Victoria. And that's where her son lives, which is two hours south of San Fernando.
00:56:01
She spends weeks staking out this ice cream shop. Holy shit. She learns the young woman's working hours and she basically hopes that one of these days Sam is going to show up to see her.
00:56:14
And he finally does. She notices Sam arrived to pick up the woman after her shift and she discreetly follows both of them home and writes down their address.
00:56:25
Oh, my God. Miriam doesn't want to go to the police yet until she's collected enough information so that they can arrest him.
00:56:32
So she knows this is all just kind of, you know, so basically she realizes she's going to have to collect enough information to get the police to listen to her and do something.
00:56:43
Yeah. So what she does is cuts her hair, dyes it bright red. She grabs her an old uniform for when she used to work at her job at the health ministry.
00:56:54
she puts it on she makes a fake government id for herself and she starts going door to door
00:57:00
in sama's neighborhood pretending that she's conducting a poll so shit she fucking ends up
00:57:08
getting his last name and all the information she can about him and what he does and everything from
00:57:14
his neighbor so she what that's brilliant it's so fucking genius and it's so like
00:57:22
you know this is you've wake woken up the fucking like the tigress in her you you have
00:57:31
taken her child yeah and she's fucking coming for you so she basically goes to the authorities
00:57:37
no one will help her she asks local police they say no she goes to the state police they say no
00:57:43
finally she goes to the federal police until one officer there who asked to remain anonymous in
00:57:50
this story for fear of retaliation and that's really this is really a thing like i i'm nervous
00:57:55
to say the names of these sub gangs in these cartels because this is serious shit yeah and
00:58:01
these people are not this is not this is no joke totally obviously right the there are people in
00:58:10
mexico that live underneath this fucking threat of violence and this threat of just assassination
00:58:17
all day, every day, and kidnapping and violence. So finally, one federal officer agrees to help her.
00:58:25
She gives him the file of information that she's gathered on Sama. The officer says he, quote,
00:58:30
he's never seen anything like it. The details and the information gathered by this woman
00:58:34
working all alone were incredible. So with this officer's help, they're able to issue an arrest
00:58:40
warrant. But Sama must have gotten word that someone was asking about him because then that's
00:58:45
when they realize he's skipped town. But Miriam's not discouraged. She decides that she can use the
00:58:52
information that she has on SAMA to try to track down the remaining members of his crew. Using
00:58:58
those same techniques, she builds a portfolio of names and photographs from social media
00:59:03
and creates her, quote, hit list. So weeks later, it's September 15th, 2014, and that's Mexico's
00:59:12
Independence Day. And Miriam's son, Luis, is getting ready to close up his shop in Ciudad,
00:59:18
Victoria. There's just one last customer in the shop. And when Luis takes a closer look at him,
00:59:24
he realizes it's Sama. So he calls his mom, letting her know that he has spotted him and
00:59:30
then he stealthily trails Sama as he leaves the store. So Miriam alerts the police and they corner
00:59:38
Sama in the central plaza. When they go to arrest him, he tries to fake a heart condition,
00:59:45
but they make the arrest anyway. And once he's questioned, he starts giving up names.
00:59:51
And one of the names he gives up is that of someone named Christian Gonzalez who just 18 years old which is the other part of this It such a bad situation that there a lot of people who don have a choice It that it that kind of thing where
01:00:06
it's so extreme. Getting into the cartel sometimes isn't a choice. Right. And and sometimes it's
01:00:12
there's kind of nothing else. Not to say it's justified or anything, but or you grew up in it,
01:00:18
too. Like this might be his entire family. Completely. And yeah, who knows? But people
01:00:25
are trying to survive. They're trying to get by in this extremely, extremely violent and bad
01:00:32
situation. So basically, they arrest Christian Gonzalez. He's taken to the station to be
01:00:38
interrogated. Miriam's gone down to the station so she can be there. She took her friend Idalia
01:00:44
with her. They're sitting outside the interrogation room. She hears the boy ask for his mother and for
01:00:51
some food. So she struck Miriam struck by the realization that this is just a kid. So she slips
01:00:58
into the interrogation. Oh, dear. She is. This woman is unbelievable. She slips into the interrogation
01:01:06
room, gives Christian basically her lunch, which was some fried chicken. And she buys him a Coke.
01:01:12
and she tells her friend Adelia that, quote, he's still a child no matter what he did,
01:01:17
and I am still a mother. Oh my God. So Miriam wins Christian over and he ends up spilling all
01:01:25
the information that he has to the police. He agrees to take them to the ranch where the victims
01:01:31
were killed and where the bodies are still buried. So this ranch sits at the end of a dirt road. It's
01:01:37
not far from a barbecue spot where Miriam and her daughter Azalea ate two days after Karen's
01:01:43
kidnapping. The ranch has since been abandoned as Mexican Marines discovered this cartel hiding spot
01:01:49
and killed six of the gang members there in a shootout. But there's still an old tractor that
01:01:55
marks the spot where multiple victims' bodies have been buried. So the investigators begin to dig there
01:02:02
And Miriam goes, of course, because she's basically part of the police department now.
01:02:09
So as the investigators are digging, Miriam looks around the property for signs of Karen.
01:02:13
She finds bone shards. She finds a noose hanging from a tree. And finally, she finds a stack of victims' personal belongings.
01:02:22
And among those items, she spots a seat cushion from the family truck and then Karen's scarf.
01:02:29
Her worst fears are now confirmed. So when the forensics team tries to tell Miriam that there's no sign of Karen's remains buried with the victims by the tractor, Miriam refuses to accept that answer.
01:02:41
She presses them to reexamine their findings for a full year until they finally identify a piece of Karen's femur among those remains.
01:02:49
And Karen is now officially confirmed as one of the dead. Jesus. So on her way home from from being at that ranch, that abandoned ranch, Miriam spots someone she knows eating alone at the barbecue restaurant, a woman named Elvia Betancourt.
01:03:08
Miriam knew Elvia from when she was a little kid and she knew that she had a very rough childhood.
01:03:14
She went through some terrible stuff. And because of that, Miriam used to give her Karen's old clothes.
01:03:20
so Miriam stops and asks Elvia if she's heard anything about Karen Elvia says she hasn't
01:03:27
so San Fernando is not a big town almost everyone's heard about Karen's kidnapping and
01:03:32
disappearance it suddenly dawns on Miriam Elvia might be keeping watch over the ranch for for the
01:03:39
cartel so back at home Miriam goes back to the social media research and she finds Elvia is
01:03:45
currently dating one of the gang members who's on Miriam's list as one of Karen's captors.
01:03:53
He's in jail. This man is in jail for a different crime. So Miriam starts tailing Elvia on her jail
01:03:59
visits. And at the same time, the police look into Elvia's phone records and find that some of
01:04:05
the ransom calls to the Rodriguez's home had come from Elvia's house. They secure an arrest warrant
01:04:13
and they arrest her on the way home from visiting her boyfriend in jail. So basically for the next three years, from 2014 to 2017,
01:04:22
Miriam continues her hunt for the names on her list. Some of them are already dead or in jail for other crimes,
01:04:29
but anyone still free is considered fair game. And even the ones who've moved on from their life of crime.
01:04:36
So there was one man who had been a florist before joining the cartel. and since he'd left the gang he'd gone back to selling flowers by the border in by the border
01:04:47
of texas miriam manages to befriend some of this man's relatives and they basically tip her off
01:04:54
to where and when he sells his flowers on this bridge leading into texas so when she gets there
01:05:00
she spots him but now he's selling sunglasses when she gets close he recognizes her he takes
01:05:06
off running and this middle-aged woman chases this man down and tackles him to the ground.
01:05:15
She pulls a pistol out of her purse and says, if you move, I'll shoot you. And she holds him there
01:05:22
for almost an hour until the police finally come and arrest him. This is a movie.
01:05:28
It completely is a movie. Another one of these people that she tracks down is a man named Enrique
01:05:34
Flores, who is now a born-again Christian, who Miriam tracks down to the small town of Aldama.
01:05:42
There she befriends his grandmother, who points her in the direction of Enrique's church. Miriam
01:05:49
finds him there one Sunday morning and corners him. When the members of the congregation beg
01:05:54
Miriam to show him some compassion she fires back where was his compassion when they killed my daughter So now Miriam starting to gain a huge reputation in the area of course because as much as they
01:06:07
all want cartel violence to end, no one citizen has ever been brave enough to stand up to them,
01:06:14
or especially take them on. Not until Miriam Rodriguez. So soon other families whose loved
01:06:20
once have been kidnapped and haven't received any help from the authorities start to band together
01:06:26
behind her. A group of 600 families calling themselves the San Fernando Collective for
01:06:33
the Disappeared begin working together to search for missing loved ones. While most respect Miriam's
01:06:39
tenacity, many also fear for her life, saying that she's playing with fire going up against the
01:06:45
cartels. But to that, Miriam says, I don't care if they kill me. I died the day they killed my
01:06:51
daughter. I want to end this and I'm going to take out the people who hurt my daughter
01:06:58
and they can do whatever they want to me. So she is not fucking around. Okay. So
01:07:05
around midnight on March 22nd, 2017, 29 inmates tunnel out and escape from the prison in Ciudad
01:07:15
Victoria. Miriam finds out that one of the killers that she put behind bars for murdering Karen has
01:07:20
escaped. So reacting quickly, the authorities managed to recapture 10 of these inmates by 9
01:07:26
a.m. the next morning. But according to the state, the killer Miriam fears the most has been
01:07:32
recaptured. Still concerned for her and her family's safety, Miriam asked the police for special
01:07:38
protection. They promised to send extra patrol cars to the Rodriguez's home and business. Luis
01:07:43
And Azalea, Miriam's husband and daughter, are still worried. But despite the rising dangers around her, Miriam presses on with her search for her daughter's killers.
01:07:53
So by April of 2017, this has been three years, Miriam tracks down yet another gang member involved in Karen's kidnapping.
01:08:03
This time it's a woman who has since left San Fernando for Ciudad Victoria, where she's taking a nannying job for a family.
01:08:10
Miriam stakes out the woman's home from her car for days, waiting for the woman to show so she can make her move.
01:08:18
At one point, Miriam wears down her car battery listening to the radio, and she has to call her son Luis to kind of like quietly and secretly come and give her car a jump while she's sitting out there.
01:08:32
When the woman finally does emerge, Miriam alerts the police. They descend on the house and they arrest the woman.
01:08:39
And Miriam is running up toward them as they're arresting her. And she trips and fractures her foot.
01:08:45
Oh, no. She's just fucking going for it. So it's a month later. It's May 10th, 2017.
01:08:52
And that's Mexico's Mother's Day. So Miriam is coming home at about 1021 p.m. Her foot's still in the cast.
01:09:02
So she's using crutches. So she parks on the street and she's hobbling out of her car and slowly making her way up to her house.
01:09:09
But before she can get to her door, a white Nissan truck pulls up behind her and they fire 13 rounds at Miriam.
01:09:18
What? Her husband inside the house hears this and runs out only to find Miriam laying face down in the street, her hand tucked inside her purse, reaching for her gun.
01:09:28
An ambulance arrives quickly, but Miriam dies on the way to the hospital. This is not how I expected this to fucking.
01:09:34
Holy shit. Yeah. Well, yeah. I mean, this is a woman who took on the drug cartel.
01:09:40
That's that's serious. Yeah. So having made such a name for herself, Miriam's death really makes an impact.
01:09:48
Over the course of the next few months, police track down and arrest two of the hit men responsible for murdering her.
01:09:55
The third killer puts up a fight. He is ultimately gunned down by the police, though.
01:10:00
the hitmen are all brought to justice. The question of who exactly put out the hit on Miriam remains a
01:10:06
mystery. And it's one that plagues her son, Luis, for months. But he knows that if he pushes too
01:10:11
hard to find them, death will also come for him. So he takes a slightly more patient and low-key
01:10:17
approach to seeking justice. And justice does come one last time for Miriam and Karen. One month
01:10:24
after Miriam's murdered in June of 2017, the police in the state of Veracruz arrest another
01:10:30
suspect in Karen's murder. This time, it's a young woman who'd run off to Veracruz with her
01:10:36
young son to work as a taxi driver. Police were able to find her by using the information Miriam
01:10:41
had gathered before her own murder, technically making this arrest her final capture. So Miriam's
01:10:48
son Luis vows to pick up where his mom left off, helping other families to find their missing loved
01:10:53
ones. He's careful not to make the same mistake that led to Miriam's death. Rather than trying
01:10:58
to punish cartel members, he and the families he works with focus on getting their missing loved
01:11:03
ones returned alive. And over time, the strength of that collective fades. Crime conditions in San
01:11:10
Fernando remain largely the same, and the members of the collective splinter off into their own
01:11:15
separate smaller parties. But the people of San Fernando are deeply affected by Miriam's bravery
01:11:20
and dedication, so much so that they honor her with a bronze plaque in the city's central plaza.
01:11:26
When all is said and done, Miriam Rodriguez is responsible for the arrests of 10 people who were involved in the kidnap and murder of her daughter, Karen.
01:11:35
And that is the unbelievable story of Miriam Rodriguez, the grieving mother who single handedly took on the cartel to avenge her daughter's death.
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default terms at mintmobile.com. I'm going to do the happy face killer. Oh, wow. Yeah.
01:13:31
Which I think I didn't totally understand for a long time, because there's also the smiley face
01:13:36
killer. Yeah, which I was like, it doesn't seem like is maybe real. I don't really understand it.
01:13:43
But then I kind of realized that there's these two stories. I'm gonna do the happy face killer,
01:13:47
which is an absolute fucking serial killer. True story. I got info from an old LA Times article by
01:13:54
Barry Siegel, a Daily News article by Mara Boveson, BBC, ABC News, Mental Floss article by Best Love
01:14:02
Joy, a Rolling Stone article by Laura Barcella, and then a podcast called Happy Face, which I will
01:14:09
talk more about later. January 1990 in Oregon, a woman in her late 50s named Laverne Palvinak
01:14:17
was ready to end the abusive relationship she was in with, had been in for 10 years with her
01:14:23
boyfriend named John Sosnovsky. So Laverne, she had already had a history of reporting her boyfriend
01:14:31
to the police on phony charges every time they fought. And actually, eight months earlier,
01:14:37
in the spring of 1989, she had called the FBI and falsely accused him of robbing banks.
01:14:43
So it's like kind of to get him in trouble and get him out of the house. Maybe that's what she
01:14:47
would do. In January 1990, she's ready to get rid of him again. So this time around, Laverne,
01:14:53
who in the 1999 made for TV movie, The Happy Face Murders, was played by a very disheveled
01:14:59
Anne Margaret, if you can believe it. Oh, wow. I know. She's an avid reader of mysteries and true crime books.
01:15:05
So she loves all that stuff. And she had read some details in the newspaper about the recent discovery of the body of
01:15:12
a local woman who had been discovered on January 22nd, 1990. She'd been discovered by a student from Mount Hood Community College who had been bicycling
01:15:22
along the old Columbia River Highway, it's east of Portland. And she had found the body of a woman
01:15:29
lying on the side of an embankment. And the woman had been beaten, sexually assaulted and strangled.
01:15:36
So the victims identified through sketches shown on the media as 23 year old Tanya Bennett from
01:15:42
Portland, Oregon. And Tanya was described as friendly and outgoing and someone who'd never
01:15:48
met a stranger. And she had last been seen alive by her parents on January 21st and the day before
01:15:56
she was found. And then she had been at a bar that night. So reading about this, Laverne devises a
01:16:02
plan to pin the murder on her boyfriend, thus sending him out of her life and into prison.
01:16:09
So on February... Laverne, she ain't got it right. No, that's not a good plan. No. So on February 5th, 1990,
01:16:16
she anonymously calls the police department claiming she had overheard a man in a bar
01:16:22
bragging about committing the murder. And so she told them the name of her boyfriend,
01:16:27
and who was a 39 year old John Sovnovsky, but they had misspelled his name in the report that
01:16:34
was taken down. So the sheriff's office isn't able to follow up on the tip. And so Laverne
01:16:38
waits a week and she's like, what the fuck calls them back. And this time they get the name correct.
01:16:43
And so law enforcement begins investigating John as a potential suspect in the murder.
01:16:49
And they were able to find employees at a cafe who did recall a frequent customer identified as John boasting that he had murdered a woman he met in a bar.
01:16:58
So he was it seems like he might have been actually taking taking what's the word responsibility for this and bragging about it.
01:17:07
And a waitress told police that, quote, he was laughing. He thought it was all a big joke.
01:17:12
So John, though, denies having anything to do with the murder. And Laverne kept changing her story.
01:17:18
And this is like a grandma type, by the way. It's like the law enforcement, they go over there and she makes them coffee and she seems really helpful.
01:17:27
And, you know, this like little old lady type of person. So they're like, it's not like she's some, you know, criminal that they shouldn't be trusting.
01:17:35
Sorry, she's old. She's like she's 50, 50 years old. She's in her late 50s. Sorry.
01:17:41
No, no, no. Grandma type, though, I said. So just wearing a, she's wearing a sweater over her shoulders.
01:17:48
Exactly. Shampoo set. She got a shampoo set. Got it, got it. She's not wearing tons of eyeliner with black hair.
01:17:54
Got it She in her late 50s I think she like 59 as well So you know she like a grandma type And it also in the Pacific Northwest I feel like 50 late 50s is a different person
01:18:05
You're treading very on very thin ice, very thin ice with me and everyone in the PN dubs.
01:18:13
All right. Well, listen, if you're still listening, let me keep telling you. If you're not curious.
01:18:20
Right. That's why I explained that she's a grandma type is because I don't. OK, here we go.
01:18:27
Digging. So and Laverne keeps changing her story as well. So they should see that something is fishy, but they don't.
01:18:36
And she then goes on to make up the story that John forced her to take part in the rape and murder as well.
01:18:42
Like all these different stories, but long story short, despite no forensics or physical evidence,
01:18:47
no details that hadn't been published being brought to light by Laverne and several conflicting
01:18:53
eyewitness accounts and continuing to alter her story. And then finally recanting her confession
01:18:58
and admitting that she was trying to frame her boyfriend. Both Laverne and John are tried for
01:19:03
the murder of Tanya Bennett. Both of them. Yeah. So and so I think Laverne was like, oh,
01:19:08
shit, this is not what I expected to happen. And Laverne is ultimately convicted and sentenced to
01:19:13
10 years in prison for her alleged role in the crime. And John, seeing that they were able to
01:19:21
sentence this little old lady, he's like, well, I'm fucked. Sorry. So he cuts a deal and pleads
01:19:29
no contest to felony murder and kidnapping, which lands him a life sentence. So during the trial,
01:19:35
a piece of evidence comes to light. So while they're both locked up, so they couldn't have
01:19:39
on this themselves. Someone had been confessing to Tanya Bennett's murder. The first confession
01:19:44
showed up inside a rest stop bathroom in Livingston, Montana, where someone had scrawled the message,
01:19:51
quote, I killed Tanya Bennett, January 21st, 1990 in Portland, Oregon. I beat her to death,
01:19:58
raped her, and I loved it. Yes, I'm sick, but I enjoy myself too. Two people took the blame,
01:20:04
and I'm free. Whoa. That is really fucking specific. It is. Like if you walked into the bathroom,
01:20:11
you would just be like, okay, get me some police tape. Like this isn't just. I think it's not like I killed so-and-so.
01:20:17
It's like, here's fucking details. So I think that's why people called it in. Soon another message was discovered
01:20:23
in a rest stop closer to the actual, where the crime had happened in Umatilla, Oregon,
01:20:28
that said, quote, I killed Tonya Bennett in Portland. Two people got the blame. so I can kill again.
01:20:35
So both messages were signed with a really distinctive happy face sketch and the author is untraceable.
01:20:42
So it's basically like the happy face where you put a circle around it, you know?
01:20:47
Detectives, which is like the creepiest thing to sign with a sign of fucking confession to murder.
01:20:53
Well, murderers are creepy. I mean, there's creeps. Detectives in the process. So you'd be like,
01:20:59
you'd think you'd see this and be like, oh, the people we have locked up are innocent, right?
01:21:02
But detectives and prosecutor in Portland make a really good point. That's maybe one of like an unknown friend of John and Laverne had wrote the graffiti in an effort to cast doubt in their guilt.
01:21:14
You know what I mean? Like there's no way. Which I think reasonable. Yeah. At first I was like, oh, but the killer confessed.
01:21:19
And it's like, not really. Yeah. So the judge bars the message from the trial. It's saying it's hearsay.
01:21:28
there's no evidentiary value and therefore cannot be introduced in John Laverne's trial,
01:21:33
which at first I was like, what? And then it's total hearsay. It's literal writing on the bathroom wall.
01:21:40
It's literally about as hearsay-ish as I think you can be. Exactly. So if Laverne had never falsely confessed, though, or perhaps if law enforcement
01:21:49
had questioned her confession a little more and looked a little deeper into it, perhaps the serial
01:21:54
killer who was to become known as the happy face killer would have been caught before at least seven
01:21:59
more women became victims. Because unfortunately, the real killer was still out there. So let's talk
01:22:06
about the happy face killer. His name was Keith Hunter Jesperson. And he was born on April 6,
01:22:11
1955 in Chilliwack, British Columbia. I mean, it's all the same stuff we've always heard. It's
01:22:18
absolutely horrifying. Of course, his father was an abusive piece of shit, domineering violent
01:22:24
alcoholic and specifically singled out Keith for abusive treatment over his siblings. So it was all
01:22:30
directed at Keith. The family moved to Sella, Washington when they were young. Well, Jesperson
01:22:36
had trouble fitting in and making friends because he ended up being as an adult six foot six inches
01:22:43
tall. So even as a little kid, he was huge. In fact, his brothers nicknamed him Igor, which is
01:22:49
like so shitty. So he had a hard time making friends and fitting in. And that nickname stuck
01:22:54
with him. He was shy, had no friends, played by himself. He would often get into trouble for
01:23:00
behaving badly, sometimes violently, and would be severely punished by his father, including
01:23:06
beatings with a belt, sometimes in front of other people to humiliate him. And in one case,
01:23:12
it says he received an electric shock from his father as a kid. Oh, Jesus. I know.
01:23:18
And beginning as young as five years old, he would capture and torture animals, which seemed like kind of a normal thing in the family.
01:23:27
Like they would hunt animals and skin them. So it wasn't like he was kind of hunting and capturing maybe.
01:23:35
But torture, that's where it goes off the rails. So I think he got comfortable with it.
01:23:41
And so torture was his next step. Just as a side note though as empathetic as we want to feel about this the beginning of the Tom Petty biography is all about how his dad used to beat the living shit out of him when he was five years old So again and most of the people listening to this know this but it has nothing to do with who you become That right It not an excuse I giving up I feel like we have to give a little background but I don want to dwell
01:24:08
on it and say they made him a serial killer because that's not that's not what happens
01:24:13
to most people who have these horrific childhoods completely. No, so there's no excuse for it at all.
01:24:21
Yeah. He would set fires to houses and in wooded areas. He said later, he said he often thought about what it would be like to do the same kinds of things to humans. And he even tried to, as a child, attempted to kill two other children who had crossed him as a little kid, like held one under the water. And like, yeah.
01:24:42
So we've got some flags going. We have some bright red flags. So despite all of these issues, he graduates high school.
01:24:50
He gets a job as a truck driver. He gets married, has three kids and seemingly lives a normal life.
01:24:57
But in 1990, truck driver seems to be in a lot of these stories. No offense to truck drivers.
01:25:03
Don't offend truck drivers. We don't need 50 year old women and truck drivers mad at us.
01:25:08
Because what else is there really in this world? But I swear there's just. Well, it's easy access to to women and you and you have no ties to the places you are, which I think in part in his mind made it.
01:25:24
He realized that, you know, yeah, it's an easy way. I feel like probably serial killers become truck drivers more than truck drivers become serial killers.
01:25:34
Yes, I would 100 percent agree with that. that I think it's a one way street coming from. Right. Just from the serial killer part.
01:25:42
My seat's uncomfortable. I'm going to start serial killing. You're not like breaker breaker. I just got this idea. Right. It's not.
01:25:50
I'm a family man who drives a truck breaker breaker. It's like I'm a serial killer.
01:25:55
This reminds me of the young woman that I met when I was in Hawaii, who is a truck driver who listens to us, who was about the least serial killerist person I've ever
01:26:05
met. Was she in her 50s? Do we have a double down? She was not. That would be cool.
01:26:11
She was not, but she was on her honeymoon. So maybe that was she was hiding behind that.
01:26:16
The glow of love. Can we get truck drivers who listen to this podcast to tell us
01:26:22
the creepiest stories from the road? Because I bet it gets so creepy late at night
01:26:27
you're driving between cows. I beg you. Just tell us if you've ever driven in the night by a child
01:26:32
in a wet nightgown on the side of the road with their arms sticking straight out or something.
01:26:37
Or like if you picked up someone creepy hitchhiking that you shouldn't have, like we need those stories.
01:26:43
Yes. So it was what they call that as a reverse large march. If you have someone got into your truck, you're the innocent bystander.
01:26:51
Because you're allowed to be you're allowed to pick up hitchhikers if you're a truck driver.
01:26:54
I feel like that's the only time it's appropriate. Correct. So we need to hear those stories, please.
01:26:59
All right. But also stop hitchhiking. What? Don't hitchhike, please. okay so seemingly lives a normal life in 1990 after 15 years of marriage
01:27:09
Jesperson and his wife get a divorce and that same year he begins to kill so he was 35 years old
01:27:16
he's super imposing 6'6 weighs almost 300 pounds or like no 240 that's not almost 300 pounds
01:27:26
numerically. I don't need to round up. 240 is the little old lady of ladies in their 50s.
01:27:33
Come on. That's right. Be so harsh. Okay. So he began working as an interstate truck driver at this point after relocating to Cheney,
01:27:42
Washington. And he soon realizes that his job affords him the opportunity to kill without being suspected.
01:27:50
So his first known victim is the woman from the beginning of the story, Tanya Bennett.
01:27:54
According to his later account, he first met her at a bar near Portland, Oregon.
01:28:00
He invited her over to his house where he lived with his girlfriend, who was also a truck driver.
01:28:05
And so she was out of town. And allegedly, allegedly, according to him, they had consensual sex.
01:28:11
But it's like, do we believe anything you say? No, no. And then he says that an argument started that ends with him beating and then strangling her to death.
01:28:21
in order to establish an alibi. He then goes back out for drinks to make sure everyone fucking sees him, you know.
01:28:29
And then he goes back to dispose of Tanya Bennett's body and her belongings and clean up the scene.
01:28:35
And he's back on the road the next day. And Tanya's body was found a few days later.
01:28:40
At the time, there's no suspects and no leads at all until Laverne's confession.
01:28:45
So when Jesperson reads in the paper about Laverne's confession and the attention it's getting them, this fucking megalomaniac gets jealous.
01:28:55
And he doesn't he doesn't feel guilty that two people are going to prison for his actions.
01:28:59
He wants the credit for it. And that's why he scrawls those messages in the bathroom at a rest stop.
01:29:06
Yeah. Guilt guilt isn't going to be coming into play in this story at all for a serial killer.
01:29:10
That's right. And when that doesn't give him any attention, he does it in the second one.
01:29:14
closer to home. So he like doubles down on confessing because he wants attention.
01:29:20
Yeah. So in the years following the couple's conviction, more women disappear in the area
01:29:25
and Jesperson begins writing letters to media and police departments confessing to his murders.
01:29:31
He's one of those Zodiac killer guys. And he signs each letter with that same smiley face.
01:29:37
And so the journalist working on the story for the Oregonian, Phil Stanford, dubs Jesperson,
01:29:43
the happy face killer. So a six page letter was sent to the Oregonian that describes the murders
01:29:49
of five women and the locations of their bodies Part of the letter read quote in a lot of opinions I should be killed and I feel I deserve it My responsibility is mine and God will be my judge when I die I telling you this because I will be responsible for these crimes and no one else
01:30:07
It all started out when I wondered what it would be like to kill someone. And I found out what a nightmare it's been.
01:30:13
So eager to confirm the murders that the killer had anonymously confessed to in those letters,
01:30:18
Phil Stanford, the journalist, begins getting a hold of law enforcement in the jurisdictions
01:30:22
that the killer had claimed to have murdered and to check if they had any that fit those
01:30:27
descriptions. And he finds that there indeed had been murders that fit the anonymous writer's
01:30:32
descriptions with details only the killer would know. So they weren't in the, you know,
01:30:37
hidden in the papers. That's confirming that the anonymous happy face killer was actually
01:30:41
indeed a serial killer. So we've got this fucking journalist on his tail. Can you imagine, too, if you're putting it together as that judge, Phil Stanford,
01:30:50
the great journalist for the Oregonian going like, yeah, here's my theory. Oh, my God.
01:30:55
My theory is real. Like, right. Or like he's like satisfying. I can't print this.
01:30:59
Let me just check a couple of things. And then, oh, fuck, you know. Yeah. Wait, just really quick.
01:31:06
Remember the murder in Oregon podcast? Don't talk about it yet because I'm going to talk about it.
01:31:10
Is it the same? Is it that same journalist? And there's more than one reporter. Oh, you're fucking right.
01:31:17
and we're going to get to more of that so he was did murder in oregon which were also
01:31:26
he's legendary legendary so good and when we talk later about the podcast happy face
01:31:32
which is the first season is all about this um case which i'll tell you more about it's really
01:31:38
good and we'll talk about murder in oregon as well but uh it's really good and and i definitely
01:31:44
suggest listening to it. I will say there's a lot of horrible, violent details that I'm not
01:31:51
including in this story because it's just, it's unnecessary in my story, but it is necessary in
01:31:56
theirs. So if you want more details, listen to that for sure. Deep dive, if you want the violent
01:32:01
deep dive. Right, right. So yeah, Phil Stanford confirms these other murders and he knows he's
01:32:06
dealing with a serial killer. So Jesperson had committed his second murder a year and a half
01:32:10
after killing Bennett. On August 30th, 1992, the body of a woman he had raped and strangled
01:32:17
was found near Blythe, California. Is that Central California? I think that's the desert.
01:32:22
I think that's out in the desert. Okay. Kind of on the way to Vegas. No man's land.
01:32:28
I feel like, right? And she was then and still remains a Jane Doe. Though, I know,
01:32:36
though Jesperson later says he remembers her name as being Claudia. A month later, the body of 32-year-old Cynthia Lynn Rose was discovered near Turlock, California, along Highway 99.
01:32:48
And his fourth victim was 26-year-old Lori Ann Pentland of Salem, Oregon. Her body was found in November 1992, having been strangled.
01:32:59
Then more than six months later, in July 1993, his fifth victim was found in Santa Nella, California.
01:33:08
She too remains a Jane Doe. And because of her, quote, street person status, the coroner originally considered her death a drug overdose.
01:33:17
And her death wasn't considered a murder until Jesperson later took responsibility for her murder as well.
01:33:22
I know it's just sad, sad stories. More than a year later, in September 1994, another Jane Doe was found in Crestview, Florida.
01:33:31
The remains consisted of mostly bones of a woman that investigators believed had been approximately 40 years old at the time of her death.
01:33:40
And over 25 years later, both Jane Does still haven't been identified. Jesperson claims this one was named Suzanne.
01:33:49
So let's get let's get Murder Squad on those cases. Right. For real. Also, well, I wonder, too, if this was part of the truck driver thing of like he was picking up people or he was intentionally choosing people that wouldn't immediately be sought after or missed.
01:34:08
That's exactly what happened. In January 1995, Jesperson had given a ride from Spokane, Washington, to a 21-year-old named Angela Surbrise of Oklahoma City.
01:34:20
And approximately a week into the trip, Jesperson raped and strangled her. And her body was not found for several months because she hadn't been reported missing because she was, you know, kind of a drifter.
01:34:31
And she is thought to be his seventh victim. So, yeah. So the only reason he was finally caught was because his final victim was someone who could be tied to him.
01:34:42
And he even admitted that that was the mistake he made. He knew that because he had no connection to these other women that he could kill as much as he wanted.
01:34:49
But he like lost his temper, so he says. And so so he killed this next victim. On March 11th, 1995, the body of 41 year old Julie Ann Winningham was found along a Washington State Road, having been strangled.
01:35:03
And when investigators looked into her life of several people were able to give the name of Julie's longtime boyfriend, Keith Hunter Jesperson, now 40 and still a long haul trucker.
01:35:14
And he was then looked into by law enforcement. Washington Sheriff's Department Detective Rick Buckner questioned the trucking company that Jesperson worked for for a long time.
01:35:25
And they provided him with Jesperson's travel itinerary, which connected the time and location to where Julie's body had been found.
01:35:32
Well, then I looked in our Gmail account and there was a email from a murderino named Shana.
01:35:39
and she wrote, the trucking company that sent this piece of shit out on his jobs was the same company
01:35:46
my dad worked for as a dispatcher. As in the person who sends the truckers out on their
01:35:52
merry little murdery ways. So not only did my dad unwittingly send this man to the places where he committed these
01:35:57
crimes, he took my mom to Fucking company barbecue where she sat across a picnic table from this creepy motherfucker.
01:36:05
Seriously, what the hell, dad? JK, love my father to pieces. He's a great man. Needless to say, my mom definitely got a weird vibe from this dude and kept the convo short.
01:36:15
So her dad might have been one of the people that gave this information to law enforcement that put him in prison.
01:36:21
Yeah, yeah. So Jesperson was questioned, but not arrested due to lack of evidence immediately.
01:36:27
And he wouldn't talk. And so it wasn't until a week and two failed suicide attempts later on March 30th, 1995, that he finally turned himself in.
01:36:37
And the reason he did that was because he hoped it would get him leniency. So like everything for himself, you know, not for closure for the family.
01:36:46
Of course. No, I don't think that way. No. And while in custody, Jesperson starts spilling the beans.
01:36:53
He reveals details of his murders. He makes claims of many others, most of which he recanted. But he also a few days before his arrest, law enforcement had gotten a hold of a letter he had written to his brother in which he had confessed to having killed eight people total over the course of five years. And they think that this is the real number of people he killed. And so law enforcement is able to connect him to those cases around the country.
01:37:22
And it turns out back in 1990, he had been exonerated of charges stemming from a rape he had committed in Mount Shasta, California.
01:37:29
So it seems like there was also probably a lot of attacks as well. A woman had come forward to report that a man had raped her and attempted to break her neck.
01:37:37
And then when he hadn't been able to and because she had her baby with her and he allegedly didn't want to kill the baby as well, he let them both go.
01:37:47
And since he had given this woman so much information about himself, he was easily identified as Jesperson and had been arrested and interrogated.
01:37:55
And a charge was filed against him for sexual assault, but then he was released.
01:37:59
And they were like, well, just make sure you appear in court about this charge. And of course, he doesn't appear. He takes off.
01:38:06
And so a felony warrant is issued and he is eventually caught in Iowa. But, quote, the cost of extradition wasn't worth it.
01:38:14
yeah so he's not exonerated and all charges are dropped because of this so if anyone questions
01:38:21
why women don't fucking report their rapes and pursue charges here's a perfect example of why
01:38:27
it's too expensive to exonerate him back to california so the charges are dropped
01:38:31
that's fucking insane it's insane and it also is again a reflection of acting as if that uh
01:38:41
like a sexual assault charge is not that big of a deal. Like it's not on par with murder in some,
01:38:48
some people's minds. It doesn't make sense when clearly a person who is just amoral enough to be
01:38:56
sexually assaulting women. Yeah. Or like absolutely has the capacity to do much worse and much more.
01:39:03
Right. Or it's like a one-off thing where I feel like men, these fucking macho men sometimes where it's like,
01:39:08
oh, this is a situation she shouldn't have gotten herself into. And it's a one off thing when really it's like if someone is able to do those things, they will they will never stop.
01:39:17
And if you teach them a lesson that they can get away with it, why would they? Right. And it yeah, it's insane.
01:39:25
The whole thing has to be approached so differently because it's it's clearly that that's not the first time he's done that.
01:39:32
That's not the for any person that would do something like that and be successful in doing it clearly has been practicing.
01:39:39
practicing for a while. It's the same. And should be taken off the street. Absolutely. It's the same
01:39:43
as the Ripper documentary where it's like women did come forward and say this happened and
01:39:47
they were sent away and it could have been stopped. And they were shamed. They were publicly
01:39:52
humiliated and they were like all those things. And then he went on to murder. They were laughed
01:39:57
at. There was the girl that got attacked that lived through it and knew what he looked like.
01:40:01
And they basically told her, you don't know what you're talking about. I mean, that kind of shit is
01:40:06
like, yeah, yeah. Sick. So in November 1995, Jess person pleads no contest to Bennett's murder
01:40:13
and had provide but had provided enough convincing evidence of his guilt during his confession.
01:40:18
Like, for example, like he had led law enforcement straight to the long lost purse that that had
01:40:22
belonged to her. He had checked it in the wilderness. And so they were able to find it
01:40:27
exactly where he told them it would be. And so so Laverne and John Sovnoski were released,
01:40:35
finally, which is a release from prison for Bennett's murder. And it does seem like the
01:40:41
prosecuting attorney and law enforcement did work hard to get them out of prison because it wasn't
01:40:47
a given. It wasn't like they were like, well, maybe they were part of the murders. Maybe they
01:40:50
had something to do with it as well. They actually had to work really hard to get them exonerated.
01:40:54
Right. Because once you're convicted, it's called the law. That's how it is. They're not going to go back on that.
01:41:00
No, you can't overturn a jury conviction very easily, even if someone else goes to prison for the murder, you know.
01:41:07
So that happens, thankfully. And they had been in prison for four years at that point.
01:41:12
Wow. Laverne dies of heart failure in March of 2003 at age 70. So Jesperson is serving three consecutive life sentences at the Oregon State Penitentiary in Salem.
01:41:24
In September 2009, he's indicted for murder in Riverside County, California, and is extradited to California to face the charges of the murder of the Jane Doe that he committed in Blythe.
01:41:36
So goodbye. Fuck off. Let's really quickly talk about Jesperson's daughter. So his daughter, Melissa Moore, was 15 in 1995 when her dad got arrested and it all came flooding out who he was.
01:41:52
She and I were the exact same age, too. So like can you imagine being 15 which is fucking hard enough without having to find out your dad is a serial killer Horrible My God So horrible Horrible She wrote a memoir in 2008 called Shattered Silence and says she originally felt like a ton of guilt and responsibility about what her father had done
01:42:13
And of course, when people at her high school found out, you know, she was ostracized, says she had to change high schools a couple of times.
01:42:20
Yeah. And she learned not to tell anyone about who her father was because she was scared that they would think that she was like her dad.
01:42:28
So she wouldn't even tell boyfriends about it as she got older. And she says she was just as perplexed as everyone else that he turned out to be this monster.
01:42:37
It sounds so similar to the BTK, the BTK's daughter. Right. Well, no, they were living double life.
01:42:43
Yeah. And he was had been a good father, aside from a couple incidents of extreme animal cruelty, which I will not get into, but they get into in the podcast. It's fucking horrific. And also, he would inappropriately and explicitly talk about his sex life with his children a lot.
01:43:01
So she's on the Oprah Winfrey show in 2009 to promote her book. And she says that after that, she started receiving correspondence from a ton of people who had family members who were also killers and kind of felt ashamed and couldn't talk to anyone about it because they felt judged.
01:43:18
And so they were thanking her for telling her story and wanted advice from her how to feel less ashamed, how to talk to their kids about what these people had done who were in their lives.
01:43:29
and she was the only person that they could talk to. So she says she starts to travel to meet these people and speaking to them on the phone
01:43:37
and that gave her meaning and direction. And because of this, she's created this like network of like 300 people who have these
01:43:45
experiences who have no one else to talk to. And she'll like connect them with other people who have similar experiences.
01:43:51
And they have this like community now, which is really lovely. Entirely. It's they're they're the victims, too. But there's that kind of societal, you know, there's like the snap judgment part that they often, I'm sure, fall victim to or at least the things that I've read.
01:44:08
So, yeah, I think that's really beautiful. It's also that kind of thing of there's only the people that have gone through it that can help you with the shame of it and help you bring it out into the light.
01:44:16
So the fact that she kind of spearheaded that is really a testament of her kind of strength. And that's really a lovely gesture.
01:44:25
Right. And she also went and met some of the family members of her father's first victim, Tonya Bennett, because she said she just wanted to know more about her life and who she was, which is really amazing.
01:44:38
And then when she was on an episode of 2020, she said, quote, being the daughter of a serial killer puts everything into question.
01:44:45
Am I worthy? Do I have a right to exist when he took so much away from other people?
01:44:50
If I'm happy, is that a slap in the face to the victim's families? I don't want it to be.
01:44:55
So then she does a 12 part podcast called Happy Face. It's done along with Lauren Bright Pacheco from Murder in Oregon, who's just an incredible investigative journalist.
01:45:07
And they speak to Melissa's mother and like just get the story of how it happened and what happened.
01:45:14
I'm still in the middle of it right now. And I tell the story of her father and the family's trauma.
01:45:20
And like from the podcast, you get the sense that she's just this she's really authentic.
01:45:24
She's really open and forthcoming with her story. You know, you don't hear the shame.
01:45:29
You hear this person who wants to share what happened to them to try to help other people who have lived through trauma.
01:45:35
It's really inspiring. You know, it's it's for people who have experienced any kind of trauma and who are survivors in their own way.
01:45:43
Her openness and her like path to coming to terms with what happened is really inspiring.
01:45:49
And she's now an expert on the topics of recovery from trauma, domestic violence and serial violent crimes.
01:45:56
And she's an Emmy nominated crime correspondent for The Dr. Oz Show. And in 2016, Melissa Moore released her second book.
01:46:04
It's called Whole, A Guide to Self-Repair. And in it, she describes and provides tools to reframe your trauma and to regain confidence.
01:46:13
And she lives now in California with her husband and two children. and she doesn't have any contact with her father.
01:46:20
And that is the story of the happy face killer. Wow. Yeah. God, I know. Heavy stuff.
01:46:30
Yeah. Well, great job. That was, I mean, it's so weird that we haven't done that one before
01:46:35
because I hear about it all the time. I also feel like I saw her, I think she hosted a show on like ID
01:46:42
or one of those channels that was about the family members. of serial killers. It's called Murder in My Family.
01:46:49
Yeah. All right. Should we wrap it up with some fucking hoorays? Yeah, Stephen, do you
01:46:53
want to tell us our big fucking hooray real quick? Oh, yeah. So I looked up, I found the tweet,
01:47:00
and today we are recording on January 13th, and that is the fifth anniversary of this podcast when it was released.
01:47:07
That is crazy. Five years. Five years. The tweet was by at Connor underscore Nitsiak, I believe is how you pronounce
01:47:19
that. Connor, thank you. Thank you for tracking our news that way. Is that a paper anniversary
01:47:27
or do we buy each other diamonds? I'm not sure. What we need to do is put it in the calendar
01:47:32
so this doesn't surprise us anymore. Yeah, next six year anniversary we'll get each other presents.
01:47:39
Steven, will you remind us to put it in the actual calendar so that we remember, it's kind of a good accomplishment. Five years, five years of consistently doing a
01:47:48
podcast where we volunteered to do homework for every episode is for me personally a gigantic accomplishment That amazing Look we did homework I never did homework I never fucking done homework And I remember very distinctly deeply resenting the homework I had to do on this podcast
01:48:08
But we've made it work. So many words. So many words written down. I mean, I honestly, we started this podcast and I honestly thought I was going to be able
01:48:19
to remember off the top of my head stories and then just talk through them the way I
01:48:23
felt like I wanted to. Yeah, because we knew everything about everything. Sure, we knew everything. So we were just going to do that.
01:48:31
Yeah, just like talk it through. That's why the first time I did Paul Bernardo and Carla Homolka, the Ken and Barbie
01:48:39
murders, it was a devastating failure. You had to redo it. There's a very huge developmental
01:48:47
arc in this podcast. I feel like we've basically written multiple thesis papers.
01:48:54
So we're basically college graduates at this point. Yeah. Junior college graduates, for sure.
01:49:01
For sure. At least. I mean, at least we have a certificate. Can we get a certificate
01:49:06
of accomplishment? Can you print us up a certificate of some kind? That'd be great.
01:49:11
You can just, one of those ones on the Kinko's website. That'll be good. Just something. Something with our names in it.
01:49:17
I actually found, I put it right up there. Hold on a second. I'm so excited for whatever this is going to be.
01:49:23
I know. What could it be? This is the only certificate that I have of any kind from my education.
01:49:34
And it literally, it says academic achievement up top. Oh, it's old school. Yeah.
01:49:40
This is to certify. What does it say? This is to certify that the student whose name appears above, and that's my name, has maintained an exceptional standard of scholarship
01:49:50
and has only and has duly earned this honor. And then you type in what the honor is.
01:49:56
And it says drama. Oh, my God. That's like that's called foreshadowing. I feel like for real.
01:50:07
It was awarded this day, 4th of June, 1988. Oh, my God. Drama. I got the drama certificate, everybody.
01:50:15
You sure did. Edward J. Kavanaugh, the president of, I mean, the principal of our high school.
01:50:20
And Adrian's dad. Oh, can I say that I found recently like my Montessori like report card, you know, from when I was like five.
01:50:30
And in the notes, it says like, what's something special about Georgia? And it says Georgia likes to tidy while the other kids have nap time.
01:50:38
So I feel like as children, we were both like already known how we were going to be when we grew up.
01:50:44
I cleaned I cleaned the area while other kids slept. Georgia had OCD from a very young age
01:50:51
and ADD. You go ahead and sleep. I'm going to go ahead and wipe down some surfaces.
01:50:56
It's not even my job. And help the teachers. Yeah, exactly. You're just supposed to be chilling out and having a snack.
01:51:01
Oh, it explains so much. Okay. Do you have fucking rays you want to read? You want to go first? You want me to go first?
01:51:09
You can go first. Okay. This is from Hello, it's Clarice from the fan cult. Hello, Clarice.
01:51:16
Hello, Clarice from the fan cult. She says 2020 was a long one for us all. After nine months of being unemployed, I finally got a job again and at an animal shelter.
01:51:27
And then a bunch of emojis. I will be an adoptions counselor, a.k.a. a matchmaker for pets and their new owners.
01:51:35
Another cute emoji. My lifelong dream that has been delayed once again by COVID is to care for endangered species such as lions and chimps.
01:51:43
this is the best next step for me and it means so much that i can help animals in need
01:51:48
the first paycheck that i am able to donate will be in elvis's name isn't that sweet thanks for getting through life with me and all your amazing advice
01:51:59
love you guys so much and then it says in parentheses karen quote you've got to let
01:52:04
your juices marinate it may take a long time something you've said that inspired her
01:52:09
is that sweet thanks hello clare it's clary's congratulations on your job let me have let me
01:52:16
have a kitten i just like that she's getting paid for a job like that that really does sound like
01:52:21
something cool to do that you would just like well you're really this way so i think this dog
01:52:26
would be really this this for you that's how i got dotty at santa de orde we like went in and
01:52:30
one of the volunteers and i was like i want this and he was like you gotta meet lucy lou
01:52:34
and it was dotty and it was dotty this starts my fucking hooray and says 2020 tried like hell to
01:52:43
break me in april my husband was laid off then on august 2nd he had a series of heart attacks at age
01:52:49
35 leading to open heart quadruple bypass on august 14th the day he was supposed to be released
01:52:55
to go home he suffered a massive stroke killing two-thirds of his brain they said that he was
01:53:00
paralyzed on his right side and blind in his right eye. He'd never be able to walk again or talk
01:53:06
again. Well, here we are at the beginning of 2021. Tomorrow, he graduates from cardiac rehab.
01:53:12
His only deficit is his speech. He is slowly relearning language and starting to be able to
01:53:18
put together sentences. So my fucking hooray is his ability to say, fuck you 2020. Casey.
01:53:25
Oh, my God, Casey, sending you healing vibes. Wow. Yeah. Casey, you're a badass.
01:53:35
The fact that you were able to even type that and send it in means you're stronger than all of us put together.
01:53:41
Keep it up. I'm so glad to hear that your husband's only deficit is speech. People have the capacity to heal and to do so many things that, you know, that there's some.
01:53:55
I love those stories where doctors are like the doctors are saying that this is the only thing possible And then those people like just break those expectations Totally So congratulations And and you know stay strong
01:54:07
Yeah. Incredible. This is from this is from Instagram from Brie Mo Morales. My fucking hooray was being able to be part of giving Christmas gifts to formerly homeless LGBTQ young adults.
01:54:21
My wife and her co-workers raised over $1,300 to buy Christmas gifts for youth in an organization called Thrive, which helps get LGBTQ young adults into housing and teaches them life skills along with helping them with their mental and physical health.
01:54:37
I'm so grateful I was able to be part of making these young people's Christmases amazing.
01:54:41
And I'm so proud of my wife for organizing all of this. That's incredible. That's great.
01:54:46
Yeah. That's a beautiful story. I know. I mean, I love that. That's very cool. And that's so generous.
01:54:54
Yeah. To make sure someone else's Christmas is good, like using your energy to do something like that.
01:55:03
That's beautiful. This one is from Michelle Supes. And it says, I got myself this 2021 true crime page a day calendar
01:55:11
and immediately thought of MFM when I saw that Mary Vincent was the first story for January 1st.
01:55:18
One of the most jaw dropping and amazing survivor stories I've ever heard. I'm trying not to look ahead, but I'm curious to see what other stories they have.
01:55:27
Hopefully a lot more badass survivor ones. Yeah. Thanks, Michelle. Supes. It's so incredible how inspiring Mary Vincent's story has been like throughout the life of this podcast.
01:55:39
It's the one that always comes up as the like memorable, incredible story, which is like, yeah, that's what we want it to be about.
01:55:47
not about fucking asshole serial killers and like the creepiest ones. Well, that's, you know, if we're talking about like the things,
01:55:54
the things we've learned over five years, it's that thing that we've been fed true crime over the years being interested in it.
01:56:02
We've been fed it one way, the way that it kind of started. To be scared, I think.
01:56:06
It's we've been fed it to be scared of it. But then in the 90s, there almost became this strange fetish of like the killers themselves
01:56:14
when it was like people were buying John Wayne Gacy paintings. That kind of bullshit that kind of was like, oh, that means somehow you're rock and roll or something. And so it has been, you know, for me, it's a real honor to be able to dig into these stories and go, no, no, I'm not. That's not why I'm here.
01:56:30
Right. That this story that the part of my interest in this fascination has to do with the fact that these were real people, that this is real loss, that these are this is human life.
01:56:44
And this is what some people go through. It gives you unbelievable perspective on your own life and how you should actually be taking things and interpreting things comparatively.
01:56:55
But also there are these unbelievable survivor stories of people who have over because I was just rewatching I Survived and she is in season one.
01:57:07
And Mary herself tells that story herself. And it's it's incredible. It's unbelievable.
01:57:12
And it's yeah, it's really. Yeah, she's she's really a beacon. Definitely. Anyways, I feel lucky that we get to share these stories and that people give us the benefit of the doubt.
01:57:22
And our listeners know that what we're trying to convey is empathy and gratitude and hope.
01:57:29
And, you know, and that's what we're here for. Yeah. Yeah, totally. It's been an honor.
01:57:35
It's been a real fucking journey. I mean, it has been quite some quite something.
01:57:41
who knew that just our podcast, our hangout podcast, chit chat would, would become the thing that it was.
01:57:49
And thank you all for listening. Each of you individually for caring, listening, playing ball,
01:57:56
getting in here and being here with us. There's some people out there that have been here with us since the first
01:58:03
fucking episode, which is hilarious to think about. Yeah. There are people that we've met in the meet and greet lines at live shows who
01:58:09
Or just like since day one. I can definitely remember that happening a couple of times.
01:58:15
Like, are you kidding me? You know, like we stop and scream at people's faces because they somehow happened upon it.
01:58:22
Somehow we're searching through true crime and we're there from. And we're still blown away every fucking day that this has gotten to where it's gotten that we have that our lives have been completely changed, completely changed in the past five years in the most amazing way.
01:58:37
And we are so grateful for that every fucking day. I can't I can't believe that this is my life now.
01:58:42
It's I know it's beautiful. It's pretty nice. And Stephen, thank you for being there for the I think you came in an episode.
01:58:51
What four and three quarter years? I believe it was episode 19. Oh, really? Yeah.
01:58:57
We had to go along that far without you. That sucks. That sucks. Yeah. Thank you so much, Stephen.
01:59:04
And you have been such a quiet and necessary part of the show. And so we appreciate that so much.
01:59:14
Not that quiet. Quiet. That wasn't, I meant like, yeah, you fill in some little blanks that we need.
01:59:20
I'm just humming it to myself. But I cut all that out. Thank you. There is a third track that will eventually be.
01:59:29
That would be fucking hilarious if this entire time there's a commentary track. Oh, my God.
01:59:34
Steven's releasing a commentary track, Mystery Science Theater. How would a commentary track work on a podcast? You're just hearing it would be chaos.
01:59:43
Yeah, it doesn't work. I think people have tried it, actually, and I don't think it works.
01:59:47
Oh, that would be good. Yeah, thank you, Steven. It was really nice knowing that in the very beginning, I think
01:59:53
it was Georgia's Zoom, and I think we would just hit record and see what happened. And so now they're
02:00:00
When Steven showed up and was giggling along and paying attention and taking notes and into it.
02:00:07
It just really that's really helped everything so much. Thank you. All right. Well, it's our anniversary.
02:00:14
So we're going to go party. That's right. But until we see you again, please stay sexy.
02:00:19
And don't get murdered. Goodbye. Elvis, do you want a cookie? I'm Babs Gray. I'm Brandi Posey.
02:00:28
And I'm Tess Barker. Tune into our podcast, Lady to Lady, premiering on the Exactly Right Network Wednesday, January 27th.
02:00:34
We're three stand-up comics and real-life friends, and every Wednesday we host the coolest hang on the internet.
02:00:39
It's like a party for your ear holes. Each week we invite some of the funniest comics and writers to join us in our adult treehouse for games, advice,
02:00:47
and the occasional deeply embarrassing personal revelation that we can't take back because now it's online forever.
02:00:54
Past guests include people like Allison Rosen. I'm 95 years old. We didn't have apps in my day.
02:01:00
But upon hearing about Raya, I think because it's selective, there a tiny part of my brain just in the background being like what would I make it on there I mean I almost think that we should do one of those things where we combine the three of our faces and put them to one person
02:01:14
See how she does? See how she does. Let's get her on there. Let's get her on there.
02:01:19
See what's up. Mary Lynn Rice. The attendant comes up to me and kneels down and goes,
02:01:25
just pretend that Jack Bauer is at the bottom of the ocean and he needs you to unlock the computer.
02:01:32
No. A reference to the largest TV credit that I have. Lacey Mosley. There's a lot of cool stuff you can do.
02:01:39
What is the vampire facial? Vampire facial is where you get blood. Your own blood?
02:01:43
Yes. Oh, well, at least it's your own blood. Yes, your own blood. Yeah. The only problem with getting it is then you have to do it to somebody else to stay alive.
02:01:49
Right, it's a pyramid scheme. Yeah, exactly. Vampires were the original pyramid scheme.
02:01:54
Yeah, absolutely. It's so funny. It's like if you just take one bite, then you'll bite three of your friends.
02:02:02
And over 300 plus female identifying artists. Don't worry, we let the occasional guy in sometimes.
02:02:08
Like Henry Zabrowski. How are you supposed to discipline a chihuahua? I have a chihuahua too and my husband has this kind of Naval Academy attitude He like we gotta show him some discipline and some structure I like I didn get a Chihuahua to not be codependent with it Check out the network premiere of Lady to Lady on Wednesday January 27th on Exactly Right
02:02:26
Subscribe now on Stitcher, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you like to listen. If you like what you hear, write us a review.
02:02:32
And if you don't like what you hear... We're not supposed to say that. Oh, can I say...
02:02:40
Lady to Lady. Subscribe now. We'll be right back. No messy integrations, no bouncing between tabs.
02:03:17
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