259 - Fake Snow In Glendale | My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark

00:00:00

This is exactly right. Isn't some far off concept? It's already here. Next starts now.

00:00:33

Hyundai, an official partner of FIFA. Goodbye. If audiobooks are your thing, or if you've been meaning to listen to more of them,

00:00:40

you should check out a podcast called Earsay, the Audible and iHeart Audiobook Club, hosted by Cal Penn.

00:00:46

Each episode spotlights standout audiobooks on Audible across all kinds of genres.

00:00:51

Sci-fi, comedy, romance, thrillers, and more. With Cal talking to guests who help break down what makes each story worth listening to.

00:00:57

It's a fun, easy way to discover your next great audiobook. Check out Earsay on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

00:01:06

Goodbye! The best parts of summer aren't just places. They're feelings. It's the scent of fresh ocean air, sun-warmed skin, and long evenings outside.

00:01:15

Pure's new summer collection is designed to capture those fleeting moments and make them last.

00:01:20

Restore your sense of place with clean, premium fragrances you control from your phone.

00:01:24

Bring the feeling of summer home. Discover the collection at Pura.com. Goodbye. Goodbye.

00:01:45

Hello. And welcome to My Favorite Murder, the podcast. That's Georgia Hartstark.

00:01:52

And that's Karen Kilgareth. how's it going everybody how are you how are your parents how's your sister your friends your dog

00:02:03

do you want to talk about your dog oh well just so happens i have one now and her name is cookie

00:02:11

as a little tribute to elvis and i think we fucking won the dog lottery she's this little

00:02:17

teeny tiny wire terrier she's nine weeks old she was found in the streets and Mutt Scouts rescued her and I just can't.

00:02:26

I'm so happy. It's so, it turns out it's great having a puppy. It is. It's really exciting.

00:02:34

They're very cute. Yeah. I just kind of am watching because Dottie is right over your shoulder.

00:02:38

She's not. And it's like she's, it's like she's looking, she's listening to you tell the story and

00:02:43

then she's just like, uh-huh. I'll be over here. Oh, do you love that puppy? Oh, it brings you joy.

00:02:49

She just turned around. She definitely is. Her back turned to me right now. And how's Cookie doing?

00:02:56

Cookie can't wait. Cookie can't wait. She's definitely a chaser. So don't run. But Mimi is like excited.

00:03:05

Mimi is fine. She's an alpha. Dottie's trying to follow her lead. And it's been three days and they're already like kind of okay.

00:03:15

So I'm looking forward to it. I like, I mean, they can always just go up high. That's the thing that cats, they have the great advantage where it's like, they're learning that.

00:03:27

I can't wait till everyone's just in a fucking cuddle puddle. But I'm going to wait.

00:03:32

I know it takes it. And that's when the barking starts. Yes. Yeah, it's fucking, it's, this is my first puppy.

00:03:41

And it's my first like dog that's mine, you know, like I had an ex that I lived with who had a dog.

00:03:46

And my brother had a dog. But this is like my first dog. Yeah, it's the best. Yeah, it feels like, it feels like a, I definitely think there would be no issue with me getting a, like, certified, what's it called, when they take care of your anxiety and you can bring them on planes.

00:04:08

Emotional support. Yeah, like, I feel like it's obvious that going to emotionally support me and in life.

00:04:15

Great. You know what I mean? Fun. Lucky cookie. yeah make the plan make the plan but i just feel like it brings me down a level of anxiety

00:04:25

immediately you know so like and she's tiny if i could bring her everywhere so it's like

00:04:31

it's just gonna it's gonna be helpful once we start leaving the house again yeah right these are your future plans post your post quarantine plan that's right of being the

00:04:41

person that takes their dog everywhere yeah puts a blue vest on their dog oh oh you mean like i

00:04:47

I thought I was in like a hoodie or like a flight bomber jacket. You mean like an emotional support?

00:04:52

No, that's it just makes me think of this lady that we were in the the the what do you call it?

00:04:59

Great cheesecake. I want to call it the American Cheesecake Factory. Great cheesecake mistake.

00:05:05

I think it's called. What's it called? Cheesecake Factory. Oh, there's no there's nothing before it.

00:05:09

There's no great about it. There's nothing great. I will say those. Yeah. Come to think of it.

00:05:18

I mean, but honestly, those avocado egg rolls are legit. Have you had them? Oh, you don't like,

00:05:21

they know what they're doing. They know what they're doing there. There's, there's no,

00:05:25

uh, there's the reason it's fucking packed and you have to have one of those weird

00:05:28

buzzers and stand around. We were there waiting for a table one time and a lady walked,

00:05:34

a lady walked in with this poodle with the blue vest on and immediately started yelling at everybody that it was her emotional support dog and I literally I looked

00:05:44

at her like lady do not bring that over here like Los Angeles is chock full of these people

00:05:50

where it like entitlement I need to explain to you how incredibly my emotions were right we look we all at the Cheesecake Factory that we have emotions No one doing it You don need a pet

00:06:05

You're just here. I definitely won't be one of those people. If I'm going to bring my dog to a dining situation, I'm

00:06:11

going to make sure that there's outdoor dining and dogs are allowed. And it's also not a global pandemic

00:06:16

because I'm just going to stay home in that case. Yeah, no, you're talking about 2023.

00:06:21

And I hear you. I'm hearing it. I would never bring my dog to a cheesecake factory.

00:06:26

This is my emotional support avocado egg roll. And it is gone. So wearing a little blue vest, now it's gone.

00:06:34

What's going to be great in 2023 is that people who need emotional support dogs for indoor restaurants,

00:06:39

you can order it and have it delivered to your emotional support indoors and your emotional support home.

00:06:47

And it ain't no thing. It ain't no thing. people will be no here's the thing crabby people like me won't

00:06:54

give a shit but you could have a fucking emotional support donkey with hay in its mouth and I'd be like oh my god

00:07:01

that's so cute I'm sorry about your feelings because it'll be so exciting to be in public and

00:07:06

be in a restaurant that it'll be like anything good now is the hay in the emotional support donkey's mouth emotional

00:07:12

support hay because that would be cute oh yeah that donkey is fucked up that donkey is brought to fucking

00:07:18

in human places. Those fountains are dancing. What's happening? There's fake snow in Glendale at Christmas.

00:07:25

And why are we even at a mall in Christmas? It's like the worst idea. It's too packed.

00:07:30

I'm so nervous. I'm just a donkey. Am I going to get fucking reindeer horns put on my head

00:07:36

and you're going to pass me off as a reindeer and you're going to put children on me?

00:07:39

Please. Are you going to make me go to J.Crew and try on those really narrow pants?

00:07:44

None of it. Please. I just want to stay home and eat my emotional support. Hey, please.

00:07:50

Did you see that it actually hailed so hard it looked like it was snowing in the Malibu Canyon?

00:07:56

No. Yes, like two days ago or three days ago. Can they handle hail in Malibu? I don't think so.

00:08:04

They've been through so much. They've had such a hard time. But it was really a mind-blowing video.

00:08:11

You should try to look it up. I'm just saying that so that when you and I talk about how cold we are during this episode and the people in fucking Nome, Alaska are like, shut up.

00:08:21

We're like, no, but there is hail. You don't understand. I mean, the people one state over in where is one state over?

00:08:26

Oregon are like, shut the fuck up, L.A. This is but it's everybody. I mean, everyone's colder than us.

00:08:33

Always. Everybody. Also, everyone wants us to shut up because of our emotional support.

00:08:37

Hail. It never ends with us. It's our emotional support podcast. Deal with it. But it's really fucking cold.

00:08:44

It's not that cold. For us. For in context. I think you're higher up and in the valley.

00:08:51

And so you get a little, you get more cold. But listen, I'm always freezing my tits off.

00:08:55

So. It's just, I'm saying for Los Angeles, which has been a blazing oven for the last 11 months.

00:09:03

Yeah, it's rough. Yeah. 53. I mean, I don't know. So what are you? I don't know.

00:09:07

What are you doing to hibernate? So what are you doing this winter season? I ask you a question and I know the answer is going to be no.

00:09:14

And I'm going to be angry because if it were asked to me in your situation, I would be saying yes.

00:09:20

Always. Have you got in your hot tub one fucking time? It's like, what's this? I know, right?

00:09:28

No, but it's only because I don't really know how to turn it on. That makes sense.

00:09:33

I wouldn't. I wouldn't just even try to guess at all. It's like there's a series of buttons and buttons.

00:09:42

and my pool tech has shown me how to do it. That's what they're called. Good for them.

00:09:49

All right. And he knows a ton of shit way more than me. And he showed me probably four times

00:09:56

and I can't every time I go over there, it's a brand new scenario. Can I make a suggestion?

00:10:00

And this is write it down. No, take a picture. Video it. Video it. That's a great idea.

00:10:08

I think that. Yeah, I've videoed some shit that I'm like, there's no way I would have remembered how to do this.

00:10:13

And it's like life changing. And it worked and then you learned? Yeah. Actually, when I

00:10:17

well, yeah. Yes. The end. You can't talk about it. Well, it just sounded like a non

00:10:22

non sequator. Is that a thing? That when I was taking drumming lessons. Oh, what? Non sequator. What's it called?

00:10:29

Oh, a non sequator. Thank you. I thought you meant a non sequator. I was like, what in the fuck are you

00:10:35

talking? It's almost like half and half of that thing. Non sequator. well when I was learning drumming a million years ago

00:10:41

I'd just take you know an hour long drumming class and they'd teach me this whole thing and I'd be like great I'm going to video you now

00:10:47

and that's the only way I like I wouldn't remember anything from the class I would just like practice by

00:10:53

watching the video so whatever that's why I wasn't going to tell their story it's not that interesting

00:10:58

doing it that's why I was a non-secreter nothing came of it nothing happened I'm just saying, were you into that drumming teacher?

00:11:13

Is that what we're actually talking about right now? Bless his heart. He was a sweetheart.

00:11:17

There was no sexual chemistry. Bless his heart. Bless his heart. Do you want me to go into a corrections corner?

00:11:24

Oh, please. I have one too. Okay, good. Yeah, because we haven't recorded in a while.

00:11:31

So this is an old one. But from the last episode where we did record, I was talking about how much I loved the show, All Things Great and Small, which I continue to love and I continue to recommend.

00:11:43

However. Oh, problem is. Problem is. I was so proud because the season started in episode one in the train station in Glasgow, Scotland.

00:11:54

Got it. Right My sister city because I lived there for three and a half months or something like that So I get real like Scotland proud when I see Scottish stuff I part of that

00:12:05

That's my neighborhood. And we've been there. I know him. And we've been there since.

00:12:10

It's like not a foreign place. Well, it's foreign, but it's not a foreign place to us.

00:12:14

Right. And yeah, so I feel real like, you know, a special citizen anyhow. Now, so I explained this show and said that that the young James Harriot gets on the train and takes it north into the Scottish islands, basically, and didn't think twice about it.

00:12:34

And essentially the reason and this is what they call confirmation bias. I told it that way is because when I took the train in Scotland, I went north.

00:12:44

So that's just like that was my experience. So that must be what this TV show is showing.

00:12:48

I got a tweet from someone named Helen Liptrot, who literally just had the sentence.

00:12:56

She just wrote the sentence, or they just wrote the sentence, All things great and small is set in Yorkshire.

00:13:02

Goodbye. Oh, yeah, that's right. He takes the train south to England to Yorkshire to work.

00:13:11

And that's where the entire incredibly famous book and television series is set in Yorkshire, England.

00:13:18

so Helen my apologies that was one of the I don't know why but it felt like one of the harshest corrections

00:13:25

of all time because there was no interest no passion it was almost like now I have to come and tell you this

00:13:30

too it's like no like it's all cool I know that people get mistaken all the time and you're from

00:13:37

fucking California but I wonder what like if we were like if someone from England were like it takes place in

00:13:45

New York but you're like no it fucking doesn't it takes place in Cape Cod? How do you not know that? You know, like a thing like that, like what it would,

00:13:50

what the equivalent would be to us. Well, we'd get that wrong too. That's true. The one thing we can really take into heart. No matter what, if it's Canada, it's the U.S.

00:14:00

And we don't fucking know. If it's Canada, whatever. Then good for you. It's all one province. All right. Well, my correction. So Helen, Helen, my apologies.

00:14:11

My correction, I think was actually really cool. It was like a learning experience for me.

00:14:16

So remember how I was like making fun of microwaves for being that you could pre-program them from some like and you were like making your meatloaf on your way home from work.

00:14:27

Sure. Turn on the microwave. Well, it turns out that so someone on Twitter or Instagram, I don't remember.

00:14:34

No, Instagram called Badass Mother. And that's bad with two B's was like, hey, the reason that those are able to the reason that those exist are for people who are visually impaired.

00:14:44

and I was like oh what a great idea I take it all back and I'm happy to hear that

00:14:52

that's all correction it's not just some dumb fucking thing that big microwave used

00:14:59

to jack up the prices of microwaves and like make rich people feel okay about having a microwave

00:15:04

you know what I mean should we talk briefly spoiler free about the Night Stalker

00:15:13

television show. It's been so long since I watched it. I feel like I have so many notes at how,

00:15:20

how good it was and like powerful. Right? Yes. This is not it was. I mean, yeah, it was so well

00:15:27

done. It was people. Here's the thing. True crime as a popular trend isn't going away anytime soon.

00:15:34

And people are just getting better and better at it. And knowing what we actually want from it.

00:15:40

that's a great point it's really impressive and this series i don't know about you i binged it all

00:15:47

the night i it came out no we didn't do that but we didn't like and then vince watched it too which

00:15:52

was like which is always a good sign he was like i might not be able to get through this let's try

00:15:57

it and then the next day he was like do you want to finish it so that's always good yeah he's

00:16:02

willing to risk the horror of it i mean the time and placiness of it is one of my favorite things

00:16:07

about the good truth where it's like, here's what it was like back then. And here's, and it's part

00:16:12

of the reason everyone was terrified. And it's, it was the first time that they were like, you know,

00:16:17

we're just coming off of the Hillside Strangler. But this time people were like, you know, whatever

00:16:22

the fuck is so good. It was amazing. Yeah, yeah, it was. And the great Frank Salerno, the detective

00:16:29

who basically worked on every famous murder case in Los Angeles in the 70s and 80s is a huge part

00:16:35

of it and it's really cool to hear him talking and telling and it was his case they yeah but then

00:16:41

fucking gil carrillo coming in and being like hey i'm a young guy but fuck you here's what it is

00:16:46

underdog city smart as a fucking whip and like it wouldn't i don't know if it would have been

00:16:53

solved at least not when it was without him at all right of course not no no no um no incredible

00:17:01

It's just, yeah, if you are looking and you haven't watched it yet, which I don't know, I bet it got really good reviews.

00:17:08

People probably have watched it, but definitely watch it. It's a real binger. It's unbelievable.

00:17:13

It's so fun, too, when you watch a thing from your town or your name, you know, Southern California, and being like, I fucking grew up with that report.

00:17:20

Tony Valdez. Oh, my God. That was my fucking news guy. Yeah. And then Zoe Turr, I was just amazed by.

00:17:28

She's the one who started the helicopter news reporting. Yeah. Fascinating. Like, just such a cool, such a cool story.

00:17:39

You learn a ton. Like, there's a lot. It's not just the crime. It's the culture around the crime.

00:17:46

And it's and then there's a bunch of survivors, victims, families. Like it's told very,

00:17:54

it very full story It not just it the way they doing it these days It just beautifully done Cool What else are you watching Well I this is an old recommendation And I think people

00:18:08

told us this like the first time we went to the UK and this got recommended. I've known about it

00:18:15

for a while, but I never found it. It's called Crime Story and it's on Amazon. And it's from the,

00:18:22

I think late 80s or early 90s. It's British. And they're basically, I think they're hour long.

00:18:30

I can't remember half hour, hour. But they're basically a dramatized reenactment of a crime, like beginning to end.

00:18:39

And it's like you're watching almost like a soap opera kind of feel, but it's, you know, but it's very real.

00:18:46

No narration. No, not at all. It's just like an episode of something that you would see, except for there's no detective that comes in.

00:18:55

It's like, it's me, Inspector Moore. So whatever. It's just all the people of the time.

00:18:59

It's all real. And there's I think there's six or maybe eight. And I watched all of those.

00:19:06

It was just like, oh, my God, this really happened. This really happened in each one.

00:19:10

And they're really amazing. And, you know, crazy. And like, we don't like dramatic reenactments of crimes.

00:19:18

you know, like I feel like we're all a little sick of that and it's all overdone and overdramatic.

00:19:24

But if this one does it well, then that's like a huge deal. Well, because it's not a reenactment.

00:19:28

Reenactment isn't accurate. It's a it's a dramatized episodic of a true story. Got it.

00:19:33

So they actually, in their great British way, produce it really well. And there's nothing reenactment about it.

00:19:39

Cool. OK. It's great. It's like it's very compelling. Good storytelling. OK. Let's see.

00:19:46

What am I? I just looked down on my notes and saw that I wrote down the Korean translation.

00:19:54

Our book came out in translation, translated in Korean. Our book's in Korea. Our book's in Korean.

00:20:01

Did you get the copies of it? That alone is crazy. It's beautiful. And it has a really fascinating cover.

00:20:07

We should post that so people can see. They're posted on Instagram. And the translation for Stay Sexy and Don't Get Murdered.

00:20:14

And then the tagline is, Be a selfish bitch. realistic fucking advice from your cool sisters

00:20:20

can you imagine there's some Korean 26 year old girl who's like in the bookstore like what

00:20:30

be a selfish bitch get over here I think this should be the name of whatever next book we write

00:20:37

but I don't know if that would sell I don't know if I could see it already is the name of a book we wrote

00:20:43

so you know what your wish has come true It can work. Your wish is granted. Thank you.

00:20:49

Oh, have you been watching season four, the new season of Search Party? No, I'm behind on Search Party.

00:20:56

Oh, my fucking season after season. This show delivers for me. Like it is regularly the best fucking episode of anything I've seen.

00:21:07

And I'm so obsessed with it. The new season is incredible as always. Hold on one second.

00:21:13

Let me let me look this up. Okay, so of course, John, John Early is like one of my favorite fucking actors, comedic actors, and him and Meredith Hagner are like the fucking best comedy duo ever. But then in this season, Cole Escola, is that how you say it?

00:21:33

Yeah, he was one of my other human generally my favorite comedic actors ever. And he is a has plays a prominent role in it.

00:21:42

And it's just twisted. It reminds me of Misery, kind of. It's just like so good.

00:21:50

It just like delivers on every front for me. I think it's nice. I have to catch up because like it when it first came out, I felt like you saw it everywhere.

00:21:59

And maybe it's just because like we were outside. so I feel like it's not by me that we're in season 4 already

00:22:06

they moved it to a new network so I wonder if that might be part of it it's on oh it's on HBO Max now

00:22:16

oh cool so that's cool please just binge it Vince told me he hadn't seen season 1

00:22:25

and I got excited that I gotta watch it again because I just absolutely fucking love it

00:22:30

That's it. Do you like it, though? Are you into it? I'm not that big of a fan of it, but I slog through it.

00:22:37

But you got through that amazing show. That's right. Because I love Aliyah Chakrat.

00:22:43

Yeah, everybody on that show is so good. Oh, I was going to tell you about last night.

00:22:48

My friend Albertina, shout out, recommended this show that's on Hulu. and what I recommend right now

00:22:59

is that you do not try to read anything about it and you do not try to look into it in any way.

00:23:04

It's called In and of Itself. I heard the same fucking thing. Don't read about it.

00:23:10

Don't read about it. Just watch it. It's on Hulu. In and of Itself. It's basically a, it was a play

00:23:18

and it was taped and so whatever. So it's a little bit like going to a live performance

00:23:24

which is amazing. And this is all I'll say about it. It starts by saying, please turn off your phone.

00:23:30

Fun. And I was laying on the couch, of course, staring at my phone while I was waiting for this thing to start.

00:23:35

And I literally was like, great. I've been waiting for someone to say that to me for nine fucking months.

00:23:42

But also, I don't want to overhype it because I feel like the neutrality of not being sure and like having people say anything in one way or the other about it is the best part.

00:23:54

and then you can just go have your own experience. Yeah, I definitely hyped up Search Party,

00:23:58

but I feel like it lives up to it. It's like, get excited. Search party is the fucking greatest.

00:24:03

And that's like, you can rely on it and it's amazing. But you don't, if you go watch it, like people have already seen it.

00:24:09

I love it. So it's like an immersive experience, kind of. I don't know why that, I just really like that phrase.

00:24:17

Yes. Well, yes. I think ultimately when it happened, it was. Oh, my friend made a movie.

00:24:23

And you know when your friends make a thing and you're like, that guy made a thing.

00:24:26

And then you watch it and you're like, holy shit, that guy was more, I should talk to him

00:24:29

more at parties because they're really talented, which isn't, it's actually a friend that I really

00:24:34

like. And I talk to at parties a lot because you can, you're at a party and you're awkward.

00:24:37

And you're like, oh, thank God, Kurt Neal's here. I can fucking have a conversation and like

00:24:41

hide with someone. So my friend Kurt Neal made a movie, which is like quite an introduction.

00:24:46

Thank you. You make movies? I didn't know. And it's called Derek's Dead. It's on Amazon.

00:24:52

And it's so charming and sweet. And Kurt stars in it and like wrote it. He probably directed it.

00:24:58

And I was like, oh, fuck, you're so talented. I don't. And Kyle Mazzono's in it.

00:25:03

And she is the guest on Do You Need to Ride this week. Shut the fuck up. She comes to the door and delivers ashes.

00:25:09

She's so funny. She's so deadpan in it. Yeah. Derek's dead. I highly recommend it.

00:25:16

It's like it's like charming and fun to watch. You know, where is it playing? Amazon and like YouTube.

00:25:23

Oh, yeah. It's like it's great. So good job. Cool. Can't wait to see you at a fucking party again.

00:25:28

someday okay so can i tell you about this book that i listened to on uh fuck man on uh it was

00:25:38

an audiobook and um my friend allison fields recommended it to me and it is called detached

00:25:46

and it's uh the authors are amir levine and rachel sf heller and it is one of those fucking

00:25:53

self-help book where you're listening to it and you're like holy shit this is the thing i needed

00:25:59

to hear and it's basically about everybody people's different attachment styles oh so either you're an

00:26:06

anxious attach you're an avoidant attached anxious attachment avoidant attachment or secure attachment

00:26:13

who the fuck are you secure i mean show off that's like yeah those are like yeah but

00:26:22

if you are in any way kind of like having a hard time with either relationships, dating,

00:26:30

where you think you're at, what you're trying to do, it is un-fucking-believable.

00:26:37

What's it called? Un-attached? It's me. No, no, no. Untethered. It's called attached.

00:26:43

That's avoided. Attached. I'm obviously the most... What are you? Secure? I'm mostly anxious.

00:26:51

Okay. Okay. Yeah. Attached. Thank you for even suggesting that. It's a wonderful compliment.

00:26:56

I mean, it's it's it's about a bunch of different things. And I think it's I was talking to my therapist about it this morning.

00:27:02

She's like, oh, but it's not everybody's not all one thing. You can be one thing.

00:27:05

There's three categories of people, of course. Yeah. However, it's not about like I know I'm an introvert.

00:27:11

Well, I'm an extrovert or whatever. It's like we're all we all contain multitudes.

00:27:16

But the theories behind it, because essentially and I'll briefly tell you this. But they basically say, if you're an anxious attachment person, then the best kind of person you can be with, obviously, is secure.

00:27:29

Definitely. Because they don't get defensive. You go through your thing. They hang out and wait for you, whatever.

00:27:39

But oftentimes, anxious attachment are only attracted to avoidance, who are the people who sit there doing everything to get away from you.

00:27:48

And you keep going. And after a while, that's what love feels like to you. Because it's a reward when they finally give you a little you're like rewarded for your hard work, which I think so many women are in this cycle right now where they think this is what love feels like.

00:28:06

This is what excitement this is whatever. And when you're when you first kind of start hanging out with a secure person.

00:28:12

Yeah, it's there's no chemistry because they're just like, yeah, I'm super into you.

00:28:17

what's going on. It's almost like you think you're bored, but it's not boredom. It's reliability.

00:28:23

You're learning how to be loved. And can I add, because Vince is totally secure. I have anxious

00:28:30

attachment. It really always helped that he was like that. When someone doesn't flip, when you

00:28:35

don't, when someone doesn't fight with you or flip out with you or get upset that you are jealous or

00:28:42

these you think that they aren't passionate and don't love you as much the only way you understand

00:28:48

love is by fight by having these things and it's always this and which is totally me and the guys

00:28:55

I dated when I was young and then you realize right that like yep it just means they have their

00:29:00

shit together and they love you enough that they know that that's not who you are you're you're

00:29:06

just kind of having a constant panic attack that you're not worthy of the love that you're like why

00:29:10

are they just being cool with me all the time? You know what I mean? Did you write this book?

00:29:15

Basically, it's like you're you get triggered. And then you're when you don't think you're worthy

00:29:22

of love. And someone treats you like you are, you think that they're fucking with you.

00:29:26

Or they're lying or they're stupid or something's wrong with them. Or they're tricking you. Yeah.

00:29:31

Did I say tricking you? Right. Okay, sorry. And then you also get mad because essentially,

00:29:35

it's you're fucked up and you have to admit you're fucked up. And then that's that thing where

00:29:40

if you're with someone else that's fucked up, you can always be like, look how fucked I am.

00:29:45

Instead of the person that's just hanging out where you're like, I'm always wrong.

00:29:49

It's so frustrating. So anyway, if you are in that spot attached it such an amazing You married We in therapy I mean we have a great relationship We in therapy because of these reasons And it is like But I mean but you also in the ideal scenario where because people who are in these different places can grow out into other places

00:30:13

You know what? He wouldn't let me push him away in the beginning. You know what I mean?

00:30:18

He wouldn't let me. He got he stood up for himself and was like, I'm not going to hook up with another girl and you stop treating me like I'm going to.

00:30:27

And you're and then I was like, I'm scared of that, because if you're open about it and you're with someone, it's OK.

00:30:33

But it's like, right, it's scary. Getting to the place where, you know, you're safe to actually tell those stories and be honest about your feelings is really hard.

00:30:42

That's my that's my recommendation. It's that it's that good, though. Like you're excited because it's that good.

00:30:48

just listen to it I mean you know what you're gonna hear but the shit it just feels

00:30:53

so nice to hear it yeah that sounds great oh should we just give a quick shout out

00:30:59

to Kyle Russell who did the lip sync from the last episode that is still the whole thing is hilarious

00:31:08

I don't know why lip syncs are so fucking funny but they are but the very end when I say is that a fire

00:31:14

and you go what like really high The way he does it is so it's thank you, Kyle. That was such a delightful little thing.

00:31:23

So good. You know, he he he nails our facial expressions in a way that's like that makes it so real.

00:31:31

Like, like, I didn't think about the fact that when I said what it was off Mike until he like turned it's just like some of these fucking tick tockers, man, are brilliant.

00:31:42

They know they're brilliant. They know they're brilliant. The only thing I'm worried about is he had glasses on for you.

00:31:48

And I wonder if he thinks I'm your voice and your mind. Excuse me. Twenty fucking twenty over here.

00:31:53

The only person. This girl doesn't need glasses. Can I just tell you? I am. Don't even pretend.

00:31:58

The only person in my family for generations of Jews that have not needed glasses.

00:32:04

And I. Really? Yeah. Why? I don't know. I probably ate paint chips as a kid and it just gave me fucking supersonic sight or some shit.

00:32:14

Licked my cat one too many times and got like some supersonic. You took that lead poisoning and you fucking made it work for your eyes.

00:32:23

Turns out it's not all bad. The government. Get out of my paint chips, bitch. I want to eat them.

00:32:30

What if this was an ad for paint chips? A super stealth ad for like... That's our new merch.

00:32:36

Paint chips. Promo code murder. They're coming back is their tagline. They're coming back.

00:32:42

Leaded gas. They were wrong to take him away. Let it gas. It's fat, baby. Asbestos.

00:32:50

You never saw it coming. Now, more lethal than ever. It's like forbidden merch. That's our new forbidden merch line.

00:33:00

Long day. Fuck you. Fuck you, the FDA. AKA. And then they never got out of prison.

00:33:09

Karen and Georgia. but we killed all those children with the paint. Toxic mold. Have you read the good news?

00:33:20

Toxic mold. Black mold. Get it in your system. All right. Should we do a little news?

00:33:28

Should we tighten our shit up? I forgot about that stuff. Yeah. Were you going to do a speaking of of something else?

00:33:33

No, I was just going to chit chat. Okay. we have a podcast network because business women turns out

00:33:42

someone told us and we said okay and then we made Empire so well of all the many shows we

00:33:50

have there's a couple great ones first of all I Said No Gifts has the great comedian actress writer

00:33:58

and America's Sweetheart Naomi Perrigan on it and she is so fucking hilarious she was

00:34:06

I retweeted a video that she put out on inauguration day where she was like, Donald Trump, bye,

00:34:14

bitch, Mike Pence, bye, bitch. And she does like a 35 second song, bye, bitching

00:34:20

everyone from the last administration, which is pretty exciting. I said no, Guess is going to be a

00:34:28

banger this week. You know what other podcast we have on our network? Just a little podcast called

00:34:34

The Purrcast, motherfuckers. Stephen, Ray Morris, and Sarah have Justina Ireland on the show this week.

00:34:43

And she's the author of the new Star Wars book, Test of Courage, which I think is such a like, like, obsessive, cool thing.

00:34:52

Right? People love Star Wars. It's so good. It's so much fun. What kind of cat does she have?

00:34:58

She has two cats named Jeff, Jeff and Jack, and then a dog named Sterling. And they all get along together.

00:35:05

And it's really sweet. I need tips and tricks. So that sounds perfect for the tips and tricks. Jack and Sterling cuddle up together. It's really sweet.

00:35:14

Okay, I'm there. That's where you want to be. We also have had two premieres this week, which is very exciting. The hilarious comedy podcast, Lady to Lady. I'll just do my own. I'm the guest on Lady to Lady for their premiere episode on the Exactly Right Network.

00:35:31

They've been doing it for, I think, seven years, a long time. They've been killing it out there.

00:35:39

And we brought them we brought them home to Exactly Right. We're so excited. And we talk about one of my favorite things that I've ever talked to anybody about, which is the attempted cancellation of Grandpa Joe from Charlie and the Chocolate Factory.

00:35:55

What Is that a thing Yeah it it a very funny conversation And those guys are the best I gotta listen So funny Okay Yeah The other what it called

00:36:07

Premiere we have is the podcast Tenfold More Wicked, which season one was incredible.

00:36:12

And now season two is out. And host Kate Winkler Dawson is dropping a new episode every Monday.

00:36:18

And season two is called The Body Snatcher. And it's about Burke and Hare, who we've covered before.

00:36:25

It's such a fascinating story. They're the most famous grave robbers of all time.

00:36:30

And they never actually grabbed a rave. They actually did it in more than a fair.

00:36:36

That's what you used to do. I used to grab raves. And so it's a really fascinating story.

00:36:43

These are really shitty people. And it's old timey. And it's just a great lesson.

00:36:48

So check that out. Tenfold more wicked. And then if you go to like exactly right, the network page on iTunes, all of our podcasts are on there.

00:36:56

There's so many fucking good ones. Anything you're interested in, like whether it's true crime or comedy or movies or, you know, Law and Order SVU, you're going to find something that you love there and cool people.

00:37:09

Yeah, exactly right. Ladies and gentlemen. Oh, and also when also we just came out with our own line of temporary tattoos.

00:37:16

While we're talking about the good news, you want to hear the good news? temporary tattoos are in everybody.

00:37:21

I feel like Karen and I are going to have to cover up our lower back tattoos with our own podcast.

00:37:27

Temporary tattoos, probably. How do you make a tramp stamp more shameful? Oh, you put your own

00:37:33

podcast temporary tattoo on top of it. You, as a grown-up, purposely put yet another thing on top

00:37:39

of the shame that you've been covering and hiding from boyfriends. And not just anything, but advertising

00:37:45

for your own podcast. That's like wearing the band's shirt to the show, but you're in the band and you're wearing your own.

00:37:54

Which apparently in the 70s, bands used to do all the time. Like you see a band, a band picture from like 1978.

00:38:00

Everyone's just like, hey, fucking Led Zeppelin, like wearing their own shirt. I guess it makes sense on like a selling merch level.

00:38:06

And I do think that if I saw a comic wearing their own shirt while they're doing stand up, I would think it's pretty funny.

00:38:13

That is funny. Right. Like Chris Fairbanks in his own merch would be pretty fucking hilarious.

00:38:19

I mean, the levels of irony are unmistakably hilarious. Is it irony or is it you being this?

00:38:27

But if you're being that, then maybe on top of it, it's ironic. You know what I mean?

00:38:33

What? Did I take Adderall today? No. Just two. All right. Is it time to actually do this show 42 minutes in?

00:38:43

Excuse me? Um, yeah, Steven. Showtime. Showtime. Who's first, Steven? It's dealer's choice because last week was a throwback where there wasn't any specific story. So it's up to you.

00:38:53

Na, na, na, na, na, na, na. Um, let's do, let's pick, like have Steven pick a number and just do it like that. Okay. Between one and 10? Sure. Uh, five. Wait, no, seven. You just did that wrong. I know, seven. Sorry.

00:39:07

You're not picking the number, Stephen. Why would you pick the number? Sorry, you're saying I pick a number

00:39:14

and then you guess. Stephen, did you just get super excited to pick a number? You were just like,

00:39:20

seven? Yes, I got excited. Okay, let's now do it between 10 and 20. It's going to be seven.

00:39:25

Okay, I have a number. And it can't be seven or have a seven in it. Let's say one number at the same time.

00:39:36

one two three twelve eight georgia i get a pick that karen goes first okay um okay i'll go first

00:39:47

this podcast is brought to you by squarespace it's 2026 and if you have an alternative career

00:39:53

like food photography or professional mixtape making or witchcraft you're gonna need an online

00:39:59

presence whatever your thing is squarespace helps you build a website that's as unique as you are

00:40:04

Squarespace provides you everything you need to offer services and get paid all in one place.

00:40:09

From consultations to events and experiences, you can showcase your offerings with a customizable website designed to attract clients and grow your business.

00:40:16

Get paid on time with professional invoices and online payments. Plus, streamline your workflow with built-in appointment scheduling and email marketing tools.

00:40:24

With Squarespace's collection of cutting-edge design tools, anyone can build a beautiful professional online presence that perfectly fits their brand or business.

00:40:31

Head to squarespace.com slash murder for a free trial. And when you're ready to launch, use offer code murder to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain.

00:40:39

Goodbye. Summer clothes should feel easy and still look polished. Low maintenance, high reward.

00:40:46

That's how we live our lives. For summer clothes you will actually wear, there's Quince.

00:40:50

Quince has beautiful everyday pieces like 100% European linen pants, dresses, and toffs with styles starting at $32.

00:40:57

Their denim is soft and easy to wear, and their organic cotton sweaters are perfect for layering on cool summer nights.

00:41:03

Everything at Quince is priced 50% to 80% less than similar brands because they work directly with ethical factories.

00:41:08

So you're paying for quality, not brand markup. And it's not just clothing. Quince has become a destination for elevated essentials across the home, kitchen, bedding, and beyond, making it easy to bring a more premium feel into everyday life.

00:41:21

I am a fan of Quince. Yeah, Karen's wardrobe is Quince-centric. Like, I'm a lazy basics person.

00:41:28

And the things that I get from them, I always go, oh, yeah, now I'm wearing these.

00:41:32

They work. They're cute. They're stylish. And they're classy. Yeah. Like, it doesn't look lazy.

00:41:37

It looks classy. And it's so affordable. Yeah. Elevate your summer wardrobe. Go to quince.com slash MFM for free shipping on your order and 365-day returns.

00:41:47

Now available in Canada, too. That's quince.com slash MFM for free shipping and 365-day returns.

00:41:54

quince slash MFM Goodbye When you young you don really buy furniture You either inherit something from your parents or you just drag something in from the street like you some kind of hipster raccoon

00:42:06

When you're ready for furniture that you actually like, check out Article. Article offers the style and durability you want at a price that actually makes sense.

00:42:14

They take great care in curating their collection, focusing on pieces that stand the test of time.

00:42:19

There's no filler. Every item is chosen for craftsmanship, design and lasting value.

00:42:23

And with Article's 30-day satisfaction guarantee, you can shop with confidence, knowing that if you're not completely in love with your new furniture, you can easily return it.

00:42:32

Plus, Article's customer care team is available seven days a week, offering knowledgeable support and even free interior design services to help you get your home just right.

00:42:40

Yes, please. Don't we all kind of need that? Like the eye of an expert? Yeah. Where should I put this? And also, what should I move here and there?

00:42:47

And what should I even get? But Article has it all, so you can get whatever there.

00:42:50

That's right. You could be like, I have this thing. Should I get this one or that?

00:42:54

Totally. Am I Scandi or am I mid-century? Help me be boho chic, please. If you're in the market for a beautiful new sofa, dining table or bed, head over to article.com.

00:43:03

Goodbye. Okay, so my story is a little bit out of left field, but I've been reading a lot about psychiatry lately.

00:43:14

It's kind of been something I've been obsessed with. And so I thought, let's just do the history of lobotomies and see how that goes.

00:43:23

Wow. Okay. He did kill. Sure. There were a lot of people killed. So it's a horrible, horrible history and story.

00:43:31

That's right. Absolutely fits perfectly. And it's complex. So I got a bunch of information from this really great PBS documentary called The Lobotomist,

00:43:41

A Wall Street Journal video called The Lobotomy Files, an all things considered story called My Lobotomy, hosted by Howard Dulley, which I highly recommend.

00:43:53

The Journal of Neurosurgery article by James P. Caruso and Jason P. Sheenan. And a KNOJI article by Carol Roach.

00:44:04

How Stuff Works article by Shannon Freeman. A BBC article by Hugh Levinson. an article of the history collection ncbi.com article by thomas a ban wikipedia and then there's

00:44:18

a podcast called behind the bastards which is great it's hosted by robert evans and this episode

00:44:24

there's a two-part lobotomy episode a lot of history and it's co it's uh the the guest is

00:44:30

daniel van kirk who's so funny do you know robert evans karen he's like a comedian no but i've heard

00:44:37

about Behind the Bastards, a lot of people like that podcast and have been talking about it.

00:44:41

It's fun and funny. All right. So before there were lobotomies, there was a Swiss psychiatrist

00:44:46

in 1988 named Gottlieb Burkhart. He had never performed surgery before, but he believed that

00:44:53

mental illness is caused by the actual structure of the brain. And all you have to do is to get in

00:44:59

there and take out the bad parts to get things in the right order, as if it was like a car engine,

00:45:05

And you're just like ripping out the wires that aren't necessary, even though you don't really understand what the wires are for.

00:45:11

And so he takes six of his patients with varying degrees of like mania, dementia and paranoia.

00:45:17

And he cuts out chunks of their cerebral cortex, which is the thin layer that covers the brain.

00:45:25

And not surprisingly, one patient goes into convulsions and dies. One seems better, but then takes his own life.

00:45:33

Two of them were exactly the same, which is actually crazy considering an amateur surgeon had cut their fucking brain.

00:45:40

And two simply got, quote, quieter. His systematic attempt at human psychosurgery performed in the 1880s through 1890s are experimental surgical forays.

00:45:52

And they're largely condemned by psychiatrists at the time. And they all like basically mock him to the point that he gives up, thankfully, on the whole thing.

00:46:01

And in the subsequent decades, psychosurgery is attempted only once in a blue moon.

00:46:06

But fast forward to the mid 1930s and Portuguese neurologist Egos Moniz, who has similar beliefs as Burkhardt, but as opposed to removing pieces of the brain, he leans more towards cutting the frontal lobe neural connections.

00:46:22

So the frontal lobe is basically our control panel for emotions, for problem solving, memory, language, judgment, and all the sexual desires and stuff.

00:46:33

It's the hardware that controls our personality. So Mona's thinks that this is where all the problems are.

00:46:39

And at the time, there are some Yale physiologists who take out the frontal lobes of chimpanzees and find that they actually chill out and they are more easily led and they do what you tell them to do.

00:46:53

So, Mona is into this. He comes up with the idea that maybe if you take out some of the white fibers from the frontal lobe on an actual human, it could have a similar effect.

00:47:04

So he enlists a colleague named Alnita Limo to test out his new, what he calls a leucotomy,

00:47:11

like on 20 people who suffer from schizophrenia, anxiety, insomnia, hallucinations, and depression,

00:47:18

with the first surgery being done on a 63-year-old woman taking small corings of the patient's frontal lobes.

00:47:25

So this is like a hardcore surgery where they like go and like drill into your head.

00:47:29

And this woman definitely seems, you know, what they call more well adjusted. And all in all, 14 out of the 20 are reported as being initially cured or improved according to their standards.

00:47:42

So that doesn't it's not, you know, kid tested, mother approved. It's just like basic fucking, hey, they're better.

00:47:50

So Moniz couldn't do these himself since he had had gout, which left his hands unusable.

00:47:56

So he just told Lima what to do. and later they start cutting holes in the skull. Okay, here, it gets gross, trigger warning, and inserting a wire loop into the brain

00:48:06

and rotating it around just to break up the white matter connections. Some people are fine with this because it becomes actually pretty popular at the time,

00:48:16

enough to win him the Nobel Prize in 1949. But he catches heat for it, for the procedure,

00:48:23

because other people in the medical community are like, dude, you're not looking at the long

00:48:27

term effects of this, or he's also not following up with any patients. And he's barely even keeping

00:48:33

track of any of his patients information. So you probably shouldn't be doing this.

00:48:39

Up until this point, the procedure is still referred to as a prefrontal lichotomy. So enter Walter Jackson Freeman, the second, who'd become known as the father of what

00:48:50

he coined the lobotomy. Walter Freeman was born November 14, 1895, and he raised in Philadelphia,

00:48:56

Pennsylvania, his grandfather, William Williams Keene, I'm going to guess it's just William Keene,

00:49:04

was a well-known surgeon during the Civil War. So he's like respected and shit. And his father

00:49:10

was also a very successful doctor, although it said that his dad hated being a doctor,

00:49:15

hated his patients and urged his son not to enter the medical field because it sucked.

00:49:21

So despite this, the young and super smart Walter Jackson Freeman II, Dr. Freeman, attended Yale University beginning in 1912 and graduated in 1916.

00:49:33

And he was just 21 years old. So he was very bright. He then moved to study neurology at the University of Pennsylvania Medical School.

00:49:41

And while there, he studied the work of the student named William Spiller. and he was doing groundbreaking work in the new field of the neurological sciences

00:49:51

and is credited by many in the world of psychology as being the founder of neurology.

00:49:57

He earned his PhD in neuropathology and in 1924, Dr. Freeman relocates to Washington, D.C.

00:50:05

and starts practicing as the first neurologist in the city. So this is like a brand new science.

00:50:11

He gets a job at St. Elizabeth's, which is then one of the nation's largest hospitals for the mentally ill.

00:50:18

And at 28 years old, he's the hospital's youngest laboratory director in history.

00:50:25

Like, what were we doing at 28 years old? It was not this. To his horror, though, and like, you know, to his credit, he sees what's going on at St. Elizabeth and he's just horrified by it.

00:50:36

He finds an institution that was essentially a dumping ground for the mentally ill.

00:50:42

Patients here were suffering from a wide range of mental ailments. I mean, we're talking just depression and dementia and psychosis, all levels of mental illness.

00:50:53

And a lot of them are just families not knowing what else to do with their family member and dumping them here or they're not fitting into society and dumping them here.

00:51:01

They're not following rules, but also the severely mental ill who, you know, needed treatment.

00:51:07

But unfortunately, there really wasn't a ton of treatments at the time. So everyone's just lumped together and they're housed, not treated.

00:51:17

There was no serious, reliable treatment at the time, just experimental medications and procedures that had very little success rates.

00:51:27

You know, and we're talking electric shock therapy, we're talking freezing cold baths, and then they would just be restrained or, you know, left naked to so they wouldn't hurt themselves, quote unquote, and left in rooms.

00:51:42

It was just medieval. I mean, your mom probably witnessed some of this in the beginning of her career, right?

00:51:49

Yeah. And that's why she got into it is because she had a relative who was schizophrenic and had there was kind of no help for her.

00:51:57

And that was, yeah, it's really, really dark. Yeah, it's so hard. Definitely. So these hospitals, which were all over the country, were basically warehouses used to keep these people out of society's way.

00:52:12

So in a way, Dr. Freeman initially, you know, had his heart in the right place. He saw a problem and he instead of just wanting to study it for decades and decades, he wanted to solve it.

00:52:25

You know, he had this like cockiness in that way. And so seeing these thousands and thousands of people who were suffering, he wanted them to no longer live such hopeless lives and in horrible conditions.

00:52:38

But it seems like because he was he was a super cocky person based on all accounts and perhaps a bit of a sociopath, depending on who you talk to.

00:52:47

He didn't really think things through like the means to the end was not was more important than the end.

00:52:54

And he was very lenient on the meaning of success as far as treatments went. So Dr. Freeman was also a strange dude, colorful character.

00:53:06

To me, he looks like a nebbishy Anton LaVey from the Church of Satan. Oh, OK. Is it the Church of Satan?

00:53:14

It's quite a combination. Yeah, it is. Like pointy goatee, dark hair. You know, he had a look.

00:53:22

and he's known for being a bit of a show off as well. In the book, The Lobotomist,

00:53:28

the author Jack L. High tells a story about a dude who comes to Dr. Freeman for help

00:53:36

when he somehow gets a metal ring stuck around his dick. Sounds like something sexual was going on, got a dick.

00:53:44

Or he was just bored. You don't know. Fair enough. I mean, who knows? So Dr Freeman files the ring off gets the ring off The patient for some fucking reason wants the ring back You know it a keepsake And Dr Freeman like nope you can have it back It now a surgical specimen fucking finders keepers or whatever

00:54:05

So Dr. Freeman keeps the ring. He has a jeweler put it back together. He has it engraved with his

00:54:13

family's crest and wears it on a gold chain around his neck for, quote, many years.

00:54:19

What? So this is now so picture a nevishy Anton LaVey with a dick ring around his neck with his family. All of the things I just said.

00:54:31

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Also, while working at Georgetown and George Washington University, all the students flocked to his lectures and classes and stuff because he had these performance based autopsies that were described as, quote, theatrical.

00:54:51

He starts wearing a big hat. He's got the goatee. He carries a cane. Sorry. Do you know what kind of hat?

00:54:58

No. It could be a clown's hat. I don't know. I mean, I would assume at the time it's like a, you know what I mean?

00:55:07

Like a, I don't know. I'm sure we'll put a photo up of him. It's not really. Cowboy?

00:55:13

I don't think cowboy hats. It's just any hat is inappropriate in an autopsy. It's insane.

00:55:19

There's not one I could name that would somehow be okay. Except for that little blue surgeon's cap that just sits right on there.

00:55:27

Yeah. Yeah. That's all I'm looking for. But I don't think that's what would draw the teens or the students in.

00:55:33

No. And then he carries a cane just because he thinks it looks cool. You know, like people who wear glasses that don't actually have any prescription of them.

00:55:42

And of course, he continues to showcase his gold dick ring. And he wears gold chains on the outside of his medical clothing as well.

00:55:51

So, Dr. Okay. Here we go. Dr. Freeman had idolized the dude earlier, Dr. Moniz. who would become a mentor to him and who Freeman actually calls what it translates to his dear

00:56:06

master. So he's like obsessed with this dude and like what he was doing for neuroscience.

00:56:11

And he modifies Moniz's procedure and renames it the lobotomy. At some point, Dr. Freeman loses

00:56:17

his license to perform surgery after a patient dies on the operating table. So like, you better

00:56:24

fucking quit it. And he's like, I will. I won't do it myself. I'm going to get a friend to do it

00:56:30

for me instead. So to legally perform his new treatment, he has to enlist the help of fellow

00:56:36

neurosurgeon James Watts as a research partner. So he's basically having this guy Watts do the

00:56:44

procedure while he oversees it and tells him what to do because he's not allowed to touch patients,

00:56:49

which should be a red, like, if you can't touch patients, it should be a pretty big,

00:56:53

Should be a period on your career. You know, it's pretty it's pretty integral to a doctor's job.

00:57:00

So if you're not allowed to, you know, how about a review board or somebody steps in somewhere?

00:57:06

Let's put an addendum to your fucking firing papers. Also, you cannot be in the room.

00:57:12

All right. So on September 14th, 1936, at George Washington University, Freeman directed Watts through the very first prefrontal lobotomy in the United States on a housewife named Alice Hood Hammett of Topeka, Kansas.

00:57:28

She had struggled with depression. She tries to back out of the procedure. She actually doesn't want to do it because she doesn't want her head shaved, which is one of the things they had to do because they were still getting into the skull.

00:57:40

And that's one of her anxieties is losing her hair. So she's like adamant that she doesn't want to happen.

00:57:46

So Freeman promises her he'll only shave a small area. They put her to sleep against her will and then shave a large portion of her head anyway.

00:57:56

So this guy was not like he wanted to help people, but it seemed like not for the right reasons.

00:58:03

It had nothing to do with them. You know what I mean? He wanted to help people, but it wasn't based on what they told him they needed or they didn't get to have a say.

00:58:12

That's the part that like in all of this is that, you know how like Cropsey starts out and it's in that it's at that state hospital that got, you know, they the news reporters went in.

00:58:23

Like there's so much of that kind of like losing your own agency. Yeah. Have these issues and doctors like the era where it was kind of like the doctors said it.

00:58:35

Right. So then you get no say. It's just very, I, yeah, it's very troubling. It's very upsetting. And it's also, what was I going to say? Yeah, it's, there's no other cure. There's no cure for depression. There's no treatment, not cure, of course, but there's no treatment for depression then like this is it. And they probably were like, this is the only way they're going to get back to a normal life. And unfortunately, yeah, it was the decision of the people who were quote unquote sane to allow these things to happen to their family.

00:59:05

Same, you know, whatever. But they have this agenda. That's the creepy part is like they have this agenda of getting their research.

00:59:13

Right. You know, like validated somehow or being a rising up in the ranks or whatever it was.

00:59:19

I mean, yeah, there's no checks and balances. You should be able to go. I don't want to do this anymore. And that should count.

00:59:24

Yeah. And, you know, that's ridiculous. Or, yeah, I'm depressed, but I could still function in society or no, I don't want to get married and have babies.

00:59:31

But that doesn't mean, you know, it's like depression also meant something different during those times than it does today or mania or psychosis, you know, was defined as just someone being defiant to, you know, the normal, the norms of the day.

00:59:48

So after so in under an hour still using an older procedure, she is lobotomized.

00:59:55

And after she wakes up she claims to be quote happy and doesn even care that her head was shaved anymore So it like that a success She not worried about her head being shaved anymore which is like a loose definition on success

01:00:10

Right. But after about a week, she can't speak very well and acts disoriented and agitated all the time.

01:00:16

And the cocky Dr. Freeman still thinks he did an awesome job and declares her case of success and starts getting attention in publications like the Saturday.

01:00:25

Evening Post, who reports that, quote, a world that once seemed the abode of misery, cruelty,

01:00:30

and hate is now radiant with sunshine and kindness. By November, only two months after

01:00:36

performing their first lobotomy surgery, Freeman and Watts had already worked over 20 cases,

01:00:42

including several follow-up operations. And by 1942, the Dew had performed over 200 lobotomy

01:00:49

procedures and had published results claiming 63% of patients had improved, 24 were reported

01:00:57

to be unchanged, and 14% were worse after surgery. That's a lot of people. Then in 1946, after almost 10 years of performing lobotomies, Freeman begins performing what

01:01:09

most people know today as the classical lobotomy, aka the transorbital lobotomy.

01:01:16

So Freeman heard of a doctor in Italy named Amaro Fimberti, who operated on the brain through his patient's eye sockets.

01:01:24

So instead of drilling into their head, they were able to access the brain without, you know, drilling under the skull.

01:01:32

So instead of taking corings from the frontal lobes, which like you had to drill, it was like a huge procedure and surgical thing and like inpatient situation.

01:01:41

Freeman's procedure severed the connection between the frontal lobes and the thalamus.

01:01:46

So Freeman formulates a new procedure called the transorbital lobotomy, a.k.a. the ice pick lobotomy, which is all the photos you see nowadays from back then are basically with the fucking picks coming out of their eyes is that.

01:02:01

So this procedure is done by first making the patient unconscious via electric shock, which in and of itself is traumatic, I would assume.

01:02:11

And then inserting a metal pick, which he calls an orbit cloths, into the corner of each eye socket, hammering it through the thin bone there with a metal mallet.

01:02:25

The word crunch comes up a lot, which is fucking creepy. And then moving it back and forth, severing the connections to the prefrontal cortex and the frontal lobes of the brain, scraping the white matter until it's no longer functional.

01:02:41

Then they do the same thing through the other eye. It sounds horrific. It fucked a lot.

01:02:47

14% of people being, you know, not not taking it well is really bad. But it's not to say that there aren't some procedures that aren't actually successful, like when Dr. Freeman performs the very first actual lobotomy in the transorbital ice pick and mallet style in 1946 on a housewife named Ellen Ionesco in 1946.

01:03:11

He had, quote, perfected the procedure just weeks before. From the PBS documentary, The Lobotomist, Ellen's daughter said that her mom changed for the better procedure, saying she never mentioned suicide again and saying her mom was violently suicidal up until that point and telling NPR after the transorbital lobotomy, there was nothing.

01:03:34

It stopped immediately. It was just peace. I don't know how to explain it to you.

01:03:39

It was like turning a coin over that quick. And she said Dr. Freeman gave her her mother back.

01:03:44

And before this procedure style, Freeman hasn't been able to perform the procedure on his own as it was surgery.

01:03:52

So he wasn't a surgeon and was Anita James Watts every time it was performed. But this newfangled ice pick method turned it into an outpatient procedure since they weren't actually going into the skull.

01:04:04

And so he could, you know, allegedly get away with doing it with just the help of a nurse.

01:04:11

So James Watts is like not fucking into this new way. It doesn't seem ethical or safe to him.

01:04:17

He does not approve of the ice pick method. He calls it reckless and unsterile. They also fight over Freeman's idea that he thinks all psychiatrists should be able to perform this procedure on their patients like during their exam and in their office whenever they want.

01:04:35

The two eventually part ways after Watts walks in on Dr. Freeman performing a transorbital procedure without his knowledge in his office one day.

01:04:47

He had been doing them when he knew Dr. Watts wasn't going to be in because he knew he disapproved of it.

01:04:53

But when Dr. Watts walks in on him doing it, Freeman is just like so oblivious to the wrongs that he's doing that he asks Watts to take a photo.

01:05:03

He's like, oh, hey, now that you're here, fucking take a quick photo. James Watts is appalled by this recklessness.

01:05:09

And so he's like, fuck this crazy shit. And he gets the hell out of Freeman's life.

01:05:13

But despite this and his horror, by the early 1950s, lobotomies have become all the rage.

01:05:20

Freeman loves performing them. And just as much he loves the attention it's bringing him because it's making him fucking famous at this point.

01:05:28

He's still showing off. He turns his doctor's coat into a he cuts the sleeves off and turns it into a muscle T-shirt, essentially, which is so tacky.

01:05:36

And he's now nailing in the ice picks on both sides of the face at the same time, almost like a fucking like a party trick.

01:05:45

So it takes even quicker. He doesn't have to do one side than the other. And he partly wants to freak people out who are watching is one of the reasons he does it.

01:05:54

So he lets an audience come and observe It becomes like an assembly line to him And during just a two span in 1952 he performs 228 lobotomies in West Virginia alone and is performing them

01:06:09

on people for as little a reason as that they're getting bad headaches. So there's not a ton of oversight. The procedure takes less than 10 minutes.

01:06:20

And so he really starts cranking them out. So despite the eventual bad rap and numerous cases of bad outcomes and even multiple deaths, surprisingly, in a lot of instances, the procedure actually seems to be helpful.

01:06:34

But sometimes they're just completely tragic and make people's already difficult lives even worse, like the case of JFK's sister, Rosemary Kennedy.

01:06:44

So throughout her life, the eldest daughter of the Kennedy clan and little sister to JFK, Rosemary or Rosie, she had dealt with what was described as physical and mental development issues.

01:06:57

And reportedly we have seizures as well as violent outbursts against others. So in 1943, when she's 23, her super controlling and demanding and total piece of shit father, Joseph Kennedy, enlists Freeman and Watts, who were still a team at the time.

01:07:14

And James Watts later describes it to author Ronald Kessler as, quote, we went through the top of the head.

01:07:21

I think Rosemary was awake. She had a mild tranquilizer. I made a surgical incision in the brain through the skull.

01:07:28

It was near the front. It was on both sides. We put an instrument inside. And as Dr. Watts cut, Dr. Freeman talked to Rosemary and asked her some things like, you know, recite the Lord's Prayer or to sing God bless America or count backwards.

01:07:43

And then says, quote, we made an estimate on how far to cut based on how she responded.

01:07:49

When Rosemary began to become incoherent, they stopped. The procedure is a huge failure and Rosemary is diminished to the mind of a two-year-old who can't speak or walk and is incoherent.

01:08:02

One of the Kennedy's nurses who watched the procedure is so disturbed by it that afterwards she quits working in medicine completely.

01:08:10

Ugh. Yeah. The once happy and vivacious Rosemary Kennedy is immediately placed in psychiatric hospital for several years.

01:08:17

She separated from the family until 1969. Her mom doesn't visit her for 20 years.

01:08:22

her dad never does. And despite all this, Rosemary lives to be 68 years old. And it's

01:08:29

said that her nieces and nephews tried to give her a normal life when they were older.

01:08:34

Or, you know, take care of her and not make her stay in an institution. What makes this all even worse is that the actual case of Rosemary's mental

01:08:42

issues is most likely traced back to when she was left in the birth canal during delivery for two

01:08:47

hours, deprived of oxygen because her mother, Rose Kennedy, was instructed by nurses to keep

01:08:53

her legs closed and not push until the doctor was available, which is so, I mean, just tells you what

01:09:00

medicine was like back then. It was barbaric. Her lobotomy wasn't made public until 1987.

01:09:07

Another famous case is that of Howard Dully, who I mentioned earlier with the All Things

01:09:12

Considered story, which you can find online. He's a pretty normal 12 year old boy. He gets into some

01:09:20

basic trouble. But his mother died of cancer, his dad remarried, and his stepmother is just a purely

01:09:28

horrible woman. She basically can't control this normal 12 year old boy who's probably grieving

01:09:35

his mother. She takes him to Dr. Freeman and says he won't bathe. He won't go to bed.

01:09:43

He turns lights on in rooms when it's daylight outside. Those are her reasons for why he's

01:09:48

unruly. And despite that he has a newspaper route and earns money and is trying to... He is a

01:09:54

responsible 12-year-old boy. He just probably is sad and hates his stepmom. However, she labels him

01:10:00

a problem child and disruptive to the family home and insists he needs a lobotomy. She forces him to

01:10:05

meet with Dr. Freeman, who says, quote, he is defiant. He is defiant at times. He has a vicious

01:10:11

expression on his face some of the time and diagnoses him as schizophrenic. So a day after

01:10:18

meeting him, together they convince his father to kind of allow the lobotomy to go forward.

01:10:26

And so in December 1960, he performs the lobotomy on the preteen. And Howard, I know.

01:10:32

And this is this episode of called My Lobotomy, which you can look up on iTunes.

01:10:38

It's him narrating his story of as an adult. He's now a bus driver. And he spent his teens after the lobotomy waking up, quote, like a zombie and really not even knowing what was going to happen to him or what happened to him.

01:10:53

He commits some small crimes. He does some stints in jail. Sometimes he's homeless, but as years pass, he gets his life together and he comes to an understanding that lobotomy was not his fault and that it's his life's path and he needs to deal with it.

01:11:09

He grows up to be a bus driver. He only tells his wife and a few close friends about the lobotomy he had.

01:11:15

And actually, you would never really know he had had it if you just met him. you know so he's he seems a little dry but not in a way that you'd be like something's wrong with

01:11:24

that guy it's just like it seems like just his personality and so this beautiful story he does

01:11:29

on all things considered he goes and speaks to his dad and is like why did you allow this to happen

01:11:36

the dad and it's so it's so heart-wrenching and beautiful and the dad's like i got tricked i didn't

01:11:43

know really what was going to happen. He goes on to write an autobiography and tells his story to NPR.

01:11:52

He tells him that his overbearing stepmother threatened that she would divorce his father if they didn't

01:11:57

get the thobotomy done. And she was actually bummed that it didn't make him into a vegetable. And so as soon as it was over, and he wasn't like

01:12:05

essentially comatose, she kicked him out of the house. So this woman is horrible.

01:12:11

She kicked him out when he was like, 12 years old. Yeah, post or I don't know how long after but like post lobotomy, the lobotomy didn't quote work.

01:12:20

You know, and he's the youngest person that Dr. Freeman ever performed the procedure on.

01:12:25

And it's like the fact that you would just be the fact that he then was OK with it, despite those reasonings, you know, and not ask this woman what, you know, try to help this child just kind of shows how far he he strayed from initially possibly wanting to help, you know, for sure.

01:12:48

That's yeah, that's it's this is so sinister. It's unbelievable. It's fucked up.

01:12:54

It is. In 1952, a surgeon and physiologist in the French army, Henri Laborette, recognizes the potential use of a new drug in psychiatry.

01:13:07

And this is when Dr. Freeman's fucking reign finally starts to come to an end. When Thorazine is introduced to the public to treat a wide variety of mental disorders that normally would have left to suffer an institution for life, such as psychosis, schizophrenia, mania, bipolar disorder.

01:13:25

The treatment of mental patients is forever changed and these barbaric methods are phased out.

01:13:32

It's the first antipsychotic. It's the first like wonder pill that actually changed people's lives.

01:13:39

And it's on the World Health Organization list of essential medicines. Its introduction has been labeled as one of the great advances in the history of psychiatry

01:13:49

And it's instrumental in the development of neuropsychopharmacology. And its commercial success stimulated the development of other psychotropic drugs.

01:14:00

So my life wouldn't be as good as it is if this hadn't happened. So because of this, Dr. Freeman's brain business starts to slow down.

01:14:10

Society's exposure to the possible horrors of lobotomies has also grown as these stories become more and more prolific.

01:14:16

and it takes its toll on Dr. Freeman's business and public image. The book, The Lobotomist, shows a cocky Dr. Freeman posing for a photo during an ice pick procedure,

01:14:28

which he gets for every single patient, including this kid, Howard Dully, the 12-year-old.

01:14:34

He goes back and looks at his files and finds a photo of him with the fucking pics in his eyes.

01:14:40

So he gets a photo of every single one of them. And so in one of these procedures, when he gets the photo taken and is distracted by it, it ends up killing the patient immediately because of his negligence.

01:14:52

So he finally hangs it up in 1967 when his last patient, Helen Mortensen, dies of a brain hemorrhage three days after her transorbital lobotomy.

01:15:04

So he spent the better part of the rest of his life documenting old patients and giving speeches, essentially trying to convince the world that he was doing the right thing.

01:15:13

And by the time of his death of cancer in 1972, Walter Freeman had performed lobotomies on around 2,500 patients across 23 states.

01:15:24

And overall, approximately 60,000 lobotomies were performed between 1936 and 1956 because other people were doing them, too.

01:15:35

In the US, Wall Street Journal did some research and found like confidential government records and spoke to family members of veterans and found that lobotomies were given to hundreds of World War Two vets who had returned from the war with serious psychiatric conditions.

01:15:52

So like with Vietnam, you kind of equate them coming home and having some serious psychological

01:15:57

issues. But World War II, they kind of like covered it up and were like, you're coming home to

01:16:01

your family and everyone gets a house and everything's peachy keen and fine now.

01:16:05

So they covered up all these lobotomies. And in fact, between April 1947 and September 1950, VA doctors lobotomized about 1,464 patients.

01:16:18

Wow. Henry Marsh, a top English neurosurgeon, said of lobotomies in 2001, quote, if you saw the patient after the operation, they'd seem all right.

01:16:28

They'd walk and talk and say, thank you, doctor. The fact that they were totally ruined as social human beings probably didn't count.

01:16:36

And then neurologist Dr. Elliot Valenstein said in his book called Great and Desperate Cures.

01:16:43

There were some very unpleasant results, very tragic results and some excellent results and a lot in between.

01:16:52

And then finally, his own son, Franklin Freeman, said, quote, you could never talk about a successful lobotomy.

01:16:59

You might as well talk about a successful automobile accident. And that is a story of Dr. Walter Freeman and lobotomies.

01:17:07

Wow. I know. I just hate the like that was back in a time where it's the same thing with priests or doctors.

01:17:16

It was just like I always put it's just like for in general, just like big white men who told everybody how it was going to be.

01:17:25

And no one there was no way to advocate for yourself. There was no you just did what they said.

01:17:32

Yeah. And it was just kind of like their way or the highway. And if you had somebody that maybe, you know, maybe didn't have like their oath in mind when they treated every single person, that just there's just nowhere to go.

01:17:48

You can't get away from that. Absolutely. It's so horrible. And it went on for so long.

01:17:53

It's just so awful. Great job Thank you And I highly recommend reading the book It called Blue Dreams the science and story of the drugs that changed our minds it by Lauren Slater and it all about

01:18:06

psychiatry and psychopharmacology and how it changed the world it's fascinating check it out

01:18:15

and thanks to my friend Mike Burns he did a great job researching this yeah he did great

01:18:20

Yeah. For such something so awful. Totally. Yeah. It's fascinating, though. I mean, like, that's the thing. It's it's it really happened. And I've seen those pictures with the ice picks. It's just I remember the first time, whatever I saw documentary or whatever it was, just being like, no, no, no, no.

01:18:42

That doesn't go there. This I'm not doing. I can't. I can't. I mean, I highly recommend that the documentaries, the PBS one, because there are tons of photographs and the stories of, I mean, it wasn't that long ago that it was just barbaric.

01:18:57

And it's I think it hits home for a lot of people because it's stuff that we would have would have happened to us or someone we know.

01:19:04

you know at the time it's like you we all know someone who has issues that gets in the way of

01:19:10

their lives that they're luckily able to treat and it wasn't the case back then that's really sad

01:19:16

yeah yeah different times yeah um all right well hold on this is thanks to people like your mom the last page for giving a shit i mean she told me shit she told me

01:19:31

stories that were the worst because she worked at a mental hospital in san francisco which in the

01:19:36

60s um like late the mid to late 60s where she said that's when kind of like the you know the

01:19:47

the beginning of the like cultural revolution hippie phase that kind of stuff was starting to

01:19:53

happen and there were families that would just send their their rebellious teenagers to mental

01:19:58

hospital so she she was like so there would be these teenagers that got caught smoking pot

01:20:02

that would get shipped to a mental hospital and be in the day room with people who were completely

01:20:07

psychotic like she's like it was it was terrible and it was um super unfair and really

01:20:14

insane like that you know and probably just detrimental to their well-being not i mean

01:20:22

And, you know, hopefully there were people, staff members who understood that, but that's the best version of housing, the housing issue of, you know, just sending people away to never see them again.

01:20:38

Sometimes the hardest part of therapy is just getting started. For real. Which is why having help that's flexible, accessible, and easy to fit into your life matters.

01:20:46

And that's exactly what Talkspace is designed for. Talkspace therapy and psychiatry is covered by most insurers and most insured members pay a copay of zero dollars.

01:20:54

Part of the mission of Talkspace is to provide quality care that is accessible and affordable, whether or not you're insured.

01:21:00

Talkspace has really made it just a kind of no brainer to try therapy. If you're nervous about talking to someone, if you're nervous about the money, if you're nervous about leaving the house, you don't have to deal with any of that.

01:21:13

They have covered it. And for me, like that is best way to get into therapy. Take all the what-ifs out.

01:21:19

You know you got to do it. You know you do. As a listener of this podcast, you'll get $80 off of your first month with Talkspace when you go to Talkspace.com slash MFM and enter promo code SPACE80.

01:21:30

That's S-P-A-C-E-8-0. To match with a licensed therapist today, go to Talkspace.com slash MFM and enter promo code SPACE80.

01:21:38

Goodbye. If you spend all day waiting to take your bra off, it might be time for third love.

01:21:44

If you're looking for breathable, lightweight comfort this summer, you're going to love Third Love.

01:21:49

Third Love is built around getting the fit right instead of expecting you to put up with something that doesn't work.

01:21:53

And Third Love offers a full range of sizes from AA to H, including their exclusive half cup sizes, so you can find a fit that feels just right instead of close enough.

01:22:03

Stop settling for bad bras. Whether you're looking for more lift, back smoothing, or straps that stay put, Third Love can find your fit fast.

01:22:10

Their virtual fitting room gets you in the right size and matches you with the best styles for your shape.

01:22:15

If you've ever been fitted for the right size bra, you are in for a treat. It actually changes the whole game with bras.

01:22:21

I thought I was like a something something A cup. I'm a something something B cup and it's just changed my bra game.

01:22:28

I thought I just hated bras, but I was wearing the wrong size. And with Third Love, like they're so comfortable that it doesn't even feel like I'm wearing a bra.

01:22:35

Use code MFM15 for $15 off your first purchase at thirdlove.com. Goodbye. A car isn't just transportation.

01:22:44

It's freedom. It's your second office. And it's the best place to scream, sing in private.

01:22:49

Finding the right one matters. And Cars.com can help you find your perfect fit. Cars.com has the tools and expert advice to help you find exactly what you're looking for.

01:22:57

With more than 2 million new and used vehicles nationwide, it's easy to search, compare, and find the right fit for you.

01:23:03

Cars.com has transparent deal ratings that make pricing easier to understand. Their clear tools and badges help you see how a vehicle's price compares so you can feel confident you're getting a fair deal.

01:23:14

They have dealership reviews you can trust. Every review on Cars.com is written by a real person sharing a real experience.

01:23:21

So don't take any chances. Do car shopping the easy way. Start your search with Cars.com.

01:23:26

Where to next? Goodbye. Okay, so this, I first became aware of the murder that I'm doing this week because I had to watch two listeners talk about it in front of me on Twitter, which, you know, I have to say it didn't feel great.

01:23:46

Oh so first Karina sent me a tweet that said I begging you please cover the smutty nose axe murders on the Isles of Shoals in New Hampshire I will send you every page of a book I have about it I know you never come to New Hampshire So you owe me this And then here comes Emily Here comes I know it she she came

01:24:07

in hot. Then here comes Emily going, I've submitted this one like three times. It's so interesting.

01:24:13

And it's got it all. And then Karina comes back and goes, it's our best hometown one. So I sent

01:24:21

that exchange to Jay and said, will you please look up some information about the Smutty Nose

01:24:26

Act? Ladies, this better be fucking great or you're just banned. Can you imagine if I blame them and

01:24:33

I'm about to tell you the most boring story of all time? Yeah, like this is boring as shit and then we're doing it

01:24:37

because of these two guys. They had to. So when we searched the Gmail, there was also, Nicholas wrote

01:24:45

in because it's his hometown. And so, but we also got information from murderbygaslight.com.

01:24:51

Oh yeah, our favorite. A great website for old murders and historical murders. Such a good website.

01:25:00

And the person who runs that website is also an author. I've talked about them so many times.

01:25:07

So go there if you're looking for interesting new stories, old stories. But also newengland.com, thelineup.com.

01:25:15

And of course, the great Wikipedia dot gov. Those are my sources. And also, so this is the email from Nicholas.

01:25:23

He said, so my hometown was a horn 145 years ago, but it's still good. I grew up in Portsmouth, New Hampshire, along with the whole 11 miles of coastline that the state has.

01:25:35

Right off the coast is an archipelago. I don't know how to pronounce that. Archipelago.

01:25:42

Archipelago. Archipelago. Thank you. It's archipelago of nine islands called the Isles of Shoals, one of which is called Smutty Nose Island.

01:25:52

At the time, there was a fishing village that was home to over 600 people, but advances in technology caused many traditional fishermen to abandon the island in favor of the mainland.

01:26:03

This led to a total of five people, a group of Norwegian immigrants, to remain living on the island.

01:26:09

And then he goes in to tell the entire story. But Nicholas, I'm just letting you kick this off and we'll get back to your email maybe a little bit later.

01:26:20

So essentially, it's the night of March 5th, 1873. And Karen Christensen has just finished her shift at the Appledore Hotel on Appledore Island, which is the largest island in this archipelago of nine islands.

01:26:38

It's off the coast of both Maine and New Hampshire. so they're basically the state line runs through so half of them are in in one state and half are

01:26:49

in the other so karen heads to her sister marin honvent's house which is on smutty nose island

01:26:56

which is just south of appledore and there she's welcomed by her sister and her sister-in-law

01:27:01

anate christensen okay so smutty nose island is only about a half mile long it's less than half a

01:27:08

mile wide. It got its name from a fisherman who saw the seaweed around the island and thought it

01:27:13

looked like the smutty nose of a giant sea creature. It's subject to cold, harsh winters,

01:27:19

and the only people who ever really go there are fishermen passing through on fishing trips.

01:27:24

In fact, no one lives there year-round except for the Honvet family. So, Maren's husband,

01:27:30

John Honvet, and his brother, Matthew, along with Maren and Karen's brother, Ivan,

01:27:36

All those men are fishermen. Everybody's brother or husband in this story is a fisherman.

01:27:40

They're all away for the night in the mainland port city of Portsmouth, New Hampshire.

01:27:45

They're there waiting for a shipment of bait. It's a cold late winter night. So to keep warm, all three women are sleeping on the first floor of this two-story house.

01:27:55

Maren and Anna Tay are sharing the first floor bedroom. And Karen has set up a makeshift bed for herself in the kitchen.

01:28:03

because probably I'm guessing that's where the wood burning stove is. And that's where the snacks are.

01:28:10

I want both of those things right now. Yeah, right. Like just pull up to a to a nice kind of fire in the kitchen.

01:28:17

And I like maybe some crab cakes Doritos variety pack. Sure. No, no, no. Crab cakes.

01:28:24

But then in your bed, I mean, old fashioned crab cake, modern. OK, so around one in the morning, Karen wakes to the sound of the family dog ring.

01:28:32

who's barking. She looks up to see the silhouette of a man standing in the doorway. So she thinks

01:28:39

it's her brother-in-law, John, coming home early. So she gets up. But this startles the man. And in

01:28:45

a panic, he grabs the closest heavy object he can find, which is a wooden chair. And he starts to

01:28:51

beat her with it. Since she believes it's John, she cries out, John is killing me, which wakes

01:28:58

marion up so marion opens the bedroom door to find her sister battered and bloodied on the floor

01:29:04

the man freezes which gives marion the chance to grab karen and drag her limp body into the bedroom

01:29:09

and deadbolt it behind her deadbolt the door behind her so the man starts pounding on the

01:29:15

bedroom door marion knowing it's only a matter of time before he breaks it down tells the two other

01:29:21

women they need to escape out the bedroom window and run um so anate goes first but as she lands

01:29:27

outside she sees the man coming outside too and she watches as he grabs the axe the haunt vent

01:29:35

family keeps next to the house to break up ice and as he comes toward her with the axe the moonlight

01:29:41

brightens his face so she can see who's coming toward her and she cries out wait now let's stop

01:29:49

here so i can give you a little more backstory on this family all right that a cliffhanger That a hilarious cliffhanger I just made you go through Okay so originally from Norway John and Maren Hantved emigrate to America in 1866 hoping to find better opportunities for themselves

01:30:08

So they land in Boston, but they have a hard time adjusting to city life. So in 1868, they move up to the remote Smutty Nose Island of Maine.

01:30:19

So they rent this small red house on the island, and they're the only one that lives there year round.

01:30:25

And they rent the house from the local family, the Laytons, who also own and operate the Appledore Hotel on Appledore Island.

01:30:32

And it's the only hotel in the entire Isles of Shoals. So John buys himself a schooner.

01:30:39

He names it the Clarabella, and he starts a fishing business. So every day at dawn, he sails out to the fishing grounds.

01:30:45

He casts his nets, takes in the day's catch to Portsmouth, and then he sells what he caught at the market.

01:30:52

And once his catch is sold, he uses part of his earnings to buy bait for the next day's outing.

01:30:59

And then he sails back home. And he soon becomes very successful. He's really good at this.

01:31:04

So while Maren is proud of her husband's hard work and of the home that they now have,

01:31:09

she feels really isolated on that island all alone with her dog. So she generally keeps good spirits and she decorates the house.

01:31:19

She cares for the home. She tends to plants that she keeps in the windowsill. But her only company is Ringya and she misses her family back in Norway.

01:31:30

Luckily, John cares about his wife's feelings and listens when she tells him because he has a secure attachment style.

01:31:38

And he doesn't get defensive when she when she tells him her troubles. Is this a fairy tale?

01:31:44

So, no, this can happen to you if you just read the book. So he sends word back to Norway and uses his hard earned money to pay for his brother, Matthew, and for Maren's sister, Karen, to come to America, too, and live with them on the island.

01:32:00

So they arrive in May of 1871. So Maren's thrilled to have her sister with her. But Karen is actually heartbroken over the end of a relationship back in Norway.

01:32:12

So, um, Maren determined to help her get over it and start her life anew, um, speaks with the Laytons and gets Karen a job working as a live in maid at the

01:32:21

Apple door hotel. How Karen got her groove back. It's such an older sister move to be like,

01:32:27

come keep me company on a deserted Island. Are you bun? Okay. Now you're a maid.

01:32:31

Like get over it. Shut up. Yeah. Clean this attachment. Get over it. Attachment style sister.

01:32:39

So Matthew starts working for his brother John's fishing business, which is growing rapidly.

01:32:45

So it turns out John needs even more help to keep things running smoothly. So one day while at the market in Portsmouth, he meets another local fisherman named Lewis Wagner and offers him a job.

01:32:56

So Lewis Wagner is a 28-year-old German fisherman with a thick accent who came to America around 1865.

01:33:04

he's been fishing around the new england area for a while now but he isn't making very much

01:33:10

money he's barely getting by and most of the other fishermen aren't really big fans of lewis

01:33:15

um he seems to be like he likes lurking in corners he's always eavesdropping on conversations

01:33:22

so he's definitely not the killer that's what you're saying no no no don't worry about this

01:33:26

guy this guy's in fact forget i'm even telling his side okay okay no one really also no one

01:33:32

really knows much about him um but john finds him friendly enough and needs needs the help he also

01:33:38

can't really afford to pay another full-time fisherman so he offers lewis room and board

01:33:44

at his house on smutty nose island um and since then when lewis agrees to those those terms john

01:33:52

doesn't hesitate because there's a free creep for hire so get him into your get the cheapest

01:33:57

possible person you can to do the job yeah and don't worry and then don't think about it again

01:34:02

Just a lurker. Hit a lurker in the house. Actually, let him move in to your house with your wife and sister-in-law, too, because you don't know anything about him and he's a lurker.

01:34:13

It'll be fine. So, Louis spends the summer of, spends that summer of, every fucking thing, it says 1972.

01:34:25

Jay? I think I, no, no, it was me. I think I went in and accidentally, it's 1872.

01:34:30

Thank you. So Lewis spends the summer of 1872 working on the Clarabella with John and Matthew, although he often has to take days off because he has rheumatoid arthritis.

01:34:42

But hey, so you get what you pay for, John. So Maren cooks for everyone, herself, John, Matthew and Lewis every day.

01:34:51

The four friends become very close and Lewis is accepted into the family. So then in October of 1872, Maren and Karen's brother, Ivan Christensen, moved to Smutty Nose Island with his wife, Anate.

01:35:06

They're newlyweds. They have been married less than a year and they wanted to come to America, be close to their siblings and be a part of John's growing fishing business.

01:35:17

So with more family coming to town, there's now five people living in the house on Smutty Nose Island and it's getting crowded.

01:35:25

Lewis sticks around for the next five weeks, but it soon becomes clear that John has more help than he needs.

01:35:31

And he's kind of left out. So he takes the hint. He finds himself another job as a deckhand aboard the fishing schooner, the Addison Gilbert.

01:35:43

So by November of that year, he's gone. And there seem to be no hard feelings. The Hauntbet family feels like they helped their friend Lewis get back on his feet.

01:35:53

And now he's on his way. But soon after Lewis joins the crew, the Addison Gilbert is...

01:36:00

wrecked in a terrible accident. And he's basically, he doesn't have a job again. So he's forced to go

01:36:07

back to working the Portsmouth wharfs. And it's bitter cold winter, of course, makes it working

01:36:13

even harder. By March of 1873, Lewis is completely broke. He's three weeks behind on his rent.

01:36:21

His shoes are worn down, his clothes are in tatters, and he's totally desperate.

01:36:25

it. So now it's March 5th of 1873, and John and Matthew and Ivan arrive at Portsmouth to pick up

01:36:33

their bait for the next day. But when they go to get it, the shipment is coming up from Boston on

01:36:39

the train, and it's delayed. So John finds another fisherman who he knows is going to be passing

01:36:44

Smutty Nose Island on his way home, and he asks him to stop and let Marin and Anate know that the

01:36:52

men will have to spend the night in Portsmouth so that they can go pick up their bait the next

01:36:57

morning. The fisherman agrees to do that. And as the guys are getting ready to settle in for the

01:37:02

night, they bump into Lewis. So they see that Lewis is down on his luck. And so John offers to

01:37:08

pay him to help them bait the lines on the Clarabella in the morning. Lewis agrees, but

01:37:15

secretly, he's got other plans. Because he now knows that John, Matthew and Ivan will not be

01:37:22

home that evening and he also knows firsthand how lucrative john's fishing business has become

01:37:29

so around eight o'clock that night lewis steals a rowboat from portsmouth's pickering wharf

01:37:36

and he rose the it's somewhere between six to ten miles out to smutty nose island i bet also like

01:37:44

now as a dog owner the dog knows him so isn't going to freak out as much as a stranger you

01:37:51

Very true. Yeah, he just thinks, oh, this guy's coming back. He might even shake, wag his tail, welcome him, be stoked.

01:37:59

Did he always have treats in his pocket? He always smelled like fish, I'll tell you that.

01:38:04

So that rowing of the boat is a five-hour journey across freezing waves and winds.

01:38:15

when he arrives at Smutty Nose, he docks his boat on the south side of the island

01:38:20

and he trudges through the snow up to the haunt fence home. He enters quietly, planning to go find that money

01:38:28

that he knows John has somewhere in that house. He's thinking that the women are asleep upstairs.

01:38:35

So now we're back in from where I left you at the top. So Anna Tay drops out the bedroom window.

01:38:41

She sees the man who was inside the house coming around the corner holding the axe and when the moonlight shines on his face she cries out

01:38:49

lewis lewis lewis but before she can run or get away from him he swings the axe high over his head

01:38:56

and brings it right down on annity's skull crushing it in one blow oh my god maryn is watching this

01:39:05

from the bedroom window and she so she witnesses her sister-in-law's murder she turns back into

01:39:13

the bedroom, trying to figure out a way for her and her sister Karen to escape. But Karen is beaten

01:39:19

so badly, she can't even stand up. So Maren is tending to her sister. Lewis comes back inside the

01:39:27

house, and he starts swinging the axe at that door. So he's breaking his way into the room.

01:39:34

Maren goes back to the window. She's trying to pull Karen out the window with her. And it's no

01:39:40

use she's dead weight and she by the time he breaks all the way into the room she has to leave

01:39:46

her sister behind she grabs the dog and she she hops out the window right as lewis swings the axe

01:39:55

at her he actually misses her just barely and he hits the windowsill instead right behind her

01:40:02

so she's running off into the snow with the dog in her nightgown and on a secluded fucking island

01:40:08

on a secluded fucking windswept island he she can hear lewis strangling karen yeah so she's searching for a good hiding spot on the island and she's being careful to hold the

01:40:22

dog close so he doesn't bark or give her away in any way and first she goes into the chicken coop

01:40:28

and she's hiding in there and then she realizes it's way too obvious it's the first place he's

01:40:32

going to check. And so she runs down to the docks to try to escape in the rowboat that he got there.

01:40:41

But the docks closest to their cottage are on the north side and Lewis intentionally docked on the

01:40:48

south side so no one would see him. So there's no boat there. So without any options, she runs down

01:40:55

the beach and hides behind a large rock on the west side of the island. It's right by the water.

01:41:00

because she knows that the sound of crashing waves could mask any noise she might make

01:41:06

or any barking that the dog might do. In just her nightgown and bare feet, Maren sits in the snow until the sun rises,

01:41:14

holding the dog close to keep her warm. So Maren was right. Lewis did search the building surrounding the house for her.

01:41:25

He couldn't find her anywhere. He goes back to the haunt vet's house where there are two dead women's bodies.

01:41:34

He brews himself some tea. He fixes himself a snack. He ransacks the place looking for cash.

01:41:40

He finds $16, which is the equivalent of about $360 today. And then he rows back to Portsmouth before sunrise.

01:41:51

So around 8 a she unsure whether or not Lewis is still on the island But Maren runs across the breakwater to Malaga Island which is northwest of Smutty Nose And she now close to Appledore Island

01:42:06

that she can actually shout to the shores. And some kids who are outside playing

01:42:11

hear her yelling and they run inside and get their dad. Good boy. Boys and girls.

01:42:16

Yes. Good kids. And their dad, Jorga Ingerbretson, Oh. He rose across to Smutty Nose, rescues Maren, brings her back to Appledore, Appledore Island.

01:42:30

And Yorga and some other men from Appledore go back over to Smutty Nose Island to search for the sign of the killer.

01:42:38

They don't find anyone there. They come back to Appledore and continue their search, thinking maybe he hopped islands and came over to Appledore.

01:42:47

And then they leave a signal on the shores of Smuttynose so that when John, Matthew and Ivan return from fishing, they know to come straight back to Appledore.

01:42:57

So a few hours later, the men see the sign. John continues on sailing the Clarabella to Smuttynose's harbor.

01:43:05

But when Matthew and Ivan, they take the tender, which is what they call a little boat that crewmen use between ships, they row that to Appledore Island, find Maren, and she tells them the horrible news of what happened.

01:43:19

So they're fueled with rage and grief and confusion. They rush back to Smutty Nose Island and they get there almost the same time that John gets there.

01:43:30

And all three of them run to the Little Red Cottage and find the horrific scene exactly as Maren had described it happening.

01:43:37

So that evening, the coroner comes and Maren and John go back to Portsmouth with him and report the murders to the authorities and give them Lewis's name.

01:43:51

And of course, the newspapers run the story immediately. Within hours of the murders, the story has spread all over the region.

01:44:00

So the morning of the murders, Lewis rose back home. He eats breakfast like nothing happened.

01:44:08

The people who see him row into the harbor say he looks down like he hasn't slept all night.

01:44:15

But after breakfast, he packs a bag and he takes the 9 a.m. train to Boston. And when he gets there, he uses some of the stolen money to get a haircut.

01:44:23

He shaves his beard and he buys himself a new suit. But word about the murders has already gotten to Boston.

01:44:30

So he makes the mistake of going back to his old neighborhood in the North End where everybody recognizes him despite his cleaned up disguise.

01:44:40

So he's arrested. He's taken back to Portsmouth. Now an angry mob is waiting there with torches and pitchforks waiting for him.

01:44:50

They want to kill him, obviously. He's walked through them, thrown in jail, and then he's extradited to a more secure prison in Alfred, Maine.

01:45:01

So Lewis Wagner's trial begins three months later on June 9th, 1873. There's a ton of evidence against him.

01:45:10

There's his bloody shirt that he hid in his boarding room. There's the fact that $16 was stolen from the Haunt vets and his suit cost $15.

01:45:19

and there's one of Maren's nightgown buttons that police find in Lewis's pocket change.

01:45:27

So very damning evidence. But he insists he's innocent, even though his alibi is really flimsy.

01:45:35

He claims that he was baiting lines for one of the captains, but he can't remember the name of the captain or the boat.

01:45:41

He says he was drinking at a bar in Portsmouth that night, got drunk and slept outside,

01:45:45

But he can't remember the name of the bar or describe its location. And there's no witnesses to corroborate his story.

01:45:53

Nine days later, on June 17th, 1873, after 55 minutes of deliberation, the jury finds Lewis Wagner guilty of the premeditated murders of Karen and Annette Christensen.

01:46:07

And he's sentenced to death by hanging. Okay, so even after his guilty verdict and sentencing, Lewis continues to maintain his innocence.

01:46:17

Even in the face of the overwhelming evidence, his continual denial causes some people to consider other possibilities.

01:46:25

Don't do that. Let me do that. Okay. So one theory is that John Hompvent was actually the killer since Karen initially cried out, John is killing me when the man first began his attack.

01:46:37

And the only survivor is his own wife, Maren. But there are several eyewitnesses who attest to John being in Portsmouth on the night of the murders, and he has no motive to kill his own family members.

01:46:49

Another theory is that Maren is the murderer. I was I was that that crossed my mind that maybe other people thought that or maybe they were having an affair or something.

01:47:01

But that's just like one guy can do it alone. We don't need a fucking accomplice.

01:47:07

You know what I mean? Lewis was the name of the killer. Like Lewis can do it on his own.

01:47:11

He doesn't need a nefarious accomplice. Right. No. But this theory is that she's the murderer by herself.

01:47:18

And the testimony like so basically because her testimony is the only eyewitness account, in theory, it would have been easier for her to commit the murders than a man traveling in from Portsmouth by rowboat because that ride is so terrible and long.

01:47:34

Yeah, but he had opportunity because he knew that husbands weren't going to be there.

01:47:39

And they they also say there's no way she could. Some people say there's no way she could have survived a night exposed to the elements in just a nightgown.

01:47:47

To them, I say, how dare you discount the power of Ringya, who was there with her.

01:47:52

That dog saved her life. As a dog owner I highly offended by that Get used to saying that because you going to have to say it all the time What if I just become that asshole Excuse me I a canine lover And so I like you to take that back

01:48:10

Okay, so despite all these rumors, the guilty verdict stands. But on June 18th, 1873, the day after his sentencing, Lewis acts on his escape plan.

01:48:21

And it's one he'd been planning since he arrived at the prison in Maine. He places a stool along with some other stuff that he had lying around his cell under the blanket to make it look like he was in bed sleeping.

01:48:35

Classic. The classic move, right? And then it's 3 a.m. He used the end of a wooden toothbrush, picked the lock on his cell and makes a getaway during the guards 3 a.m. break.

01:48:47

And now he's too scared to travel through the woods, which I think is kind of a hilarious detail.

01:48:52

Oh, he's scared. Oh, it is like some kind of a raccoon that gets you. Oh, it would scare the big bad murderer.

01:48:59

So he goes down the road in the middle of the night. He gets to a farm. the farmer who has no idea who he is or what the the fact that he broke out of prison or anything

01:49:11

welcomes him inside and so he actually ends up staying there for a couple days but then a group

01:49:17

of vigilantes finds out that he's there and circle up and he has taken back to prison vigilantes

01:49:23

will fucking get you every time they're not having it so this is from nicholas's email

01:49:29

he says a bit about Wagner he was handsome and apparently very gregarious but he was

01:49:37

known to all caps have trouble keeping eye contact during conversation and then there's like five exclamation

01:49:45

quotes he says and I refuse to believe that being a fisherman in the late 1800s didn't come with a little cranial

01:49:51

injury every now and again but despite the mob that tried to lynch him he was the

01:49:57

straight up Charles Manson of his day where he'd receive fan mail in prison and would have people trying to visit him while he awaited

01:50:05

trial and literally had a following of whack jobs who were convinced he was innocent. Do you know

01:50:10

who I'm picturing playing him? Michael Shannon. Yeah. Right. From Boardwalk Empire and all and

01:50:17

every other time he's a villain. And every other role he's ever played. And one of the more

01:50:23

shocking and bizarre sex scenes from A Shape of Water. The Shape of Water. Do you remember that? Troubling movie.

01:50:32

His butt, he's fucking his wife in the strangest way and it was really like a hard cut to this scene where I was just like

01:50:41

hold the phone. What are we watching? Aggressively awkward sex right now? Weird 50s

01:50:48

bossy sex? What's happening? Anyway. Trigger warning. To this day, there are those who insist Lewis Wagner was framed in his German descent, made him an easy scapegoat.

01:50:59

Speculation also comes up whether it's physically possible to row the 10 miles to and from the islands in the time span where the murders happened.

01:51:08

And then parentheses, Nicholas says it can, especially for someone as sea hardened as Wagner.

01:51:13

Nicholas, thank you for your classic New Hampshire storytelling. It really added.

01:51:18

Okay, so on June 25th, now we're out of Nicholas's email. That's over. On June 25th, 1875, Lewis Wagner is taken to the state prison at Thomaston, Maine, where he is hanged alongside another man who's also guilty of murder.

01:51:34

As for Maren and John Honfett, they move off of the Isles of Shoals for good. They find themselves a new home in Portsmouth, where John keeps up his fishing business until the end of their lives.

01:51:46

Ivan is destroyed by the murder of his wife, Anate, and he decides to stay in the aisles, but he moves to Appledore Island.

01:51:55

He takes up work as a carpenter, but he's, of course, forever changed by his loss.

01:52:00

The once good spirited Ivan hardly talks to anyone. He avoids eye contact. He keeps his head down and just works.

01:52:07

And after the summer of 1873, he ends up moving back to Norway and he loses touch with Maren and John completely.

01:52:16

Then, three years later, Maren dies of natural causes. And at the time, several newspapers print a completely unsubstantiated rumor saying that Maren confessed to the murders on her deathbed, which then reignites those theories that defended Lewis Wagner.

01:52:40

Sure. and is basically one last blow to the only witness and sole survivor of this terrible axe murder.

01:52:50

Yeah, who tried to like save her sister out of window and couldn't. And she gets blamed for it.

01:52:55

What a bummer. So the big rock where Maren hid the night of the axe murders is now called Maren's Rock on that island.

01:53:03

The Little Red Cottage burned down several years after the murders. And now you can only see the stone foundation on the island.

01:53:11

And that is Karina and Emily and Nicholas's horrible hometown story. The Smutty Nose Axe Murders.

01:53:19

Wow. I mean, that was that was a good one. It was horrible. You know, it was a horrible good one.

01:53:25

That was like it was a good one. It really I think they were all right that it it had everything a lot of really compelling elements.

01:53:33

and just that idea of her having to jump out the window when her sister and sister-in-law

01:53:39

have been murdered and then she's trying to figure out where to hide in the snow.

01:53:44

And can we say also she took the dog. She couldn't save her sister. She saved the dog, which is like such a heroic.

01:53:55

I mean you know it like she I don think that someone who was like Killing everyone was just like Oh well I gonna take the dog though That just like the saddest thing

01:54:05

That she couldn't save her sister She couldn't save her sister-in-law And she saved the one thing she could

01:54:10

Which was the dog It's just like incredible Poor thing Great job Thank you Should we do like one hometown each

01:54:21

I mean one fucking hooray Okay let's do it Go ahead. You go first. This is from Maya George on Instagram.

01:54:29

My fucking hooray this week is that I was recently admitted to my top choice law school,

01:54:34

the University of Iowa College of Law. I was the only it was the only school I applied to.

01:54:40

And I was thrilled to hear back less than two weeks after submitting my application.

01:54:44

Smart person. Imposter syndrome is a condition I know all too well. And this acceptance went a long way to reminding me that I am capable.

01:54:52

and I look forward to advocating for the environment through the law. SSDGM. Awesome.

01:54:59

Congratulations. Good job, Maya. Find your murderinos at, what was it called? The University of Iowa College of Law.

01:55:06

Okay, let's see. This one is from Moni and it's fucking hooray. Side effect of COVID vaccine is serotonin.

01:55:15

Hello, all. It is safe to say that being a single night shift ICU nurse during the pandemic has been a journey.

01:55:22

Quiet cries on drives home, sleeping through the day and drive through meals paired with a bottle of wine has been most of my last year.

01:55:31

The day I lost my first patient to covid, my closet shelf fell down from the sheer weight of my coping mechanism shopping.

01:55:39

It was too much to handle and I just closed the door and figured I would deal with it someday.

01:55:44

But I have been unable to deal with this closet of shit for over a year. However, the other day I got my second COVID vaccine and my anxiety slash depression has lightened enough to deal with this closet and it is finally fixed.

01:56:02

I don't need any accolades for working through this. I love my job and it is my purpose in this life.

01:56:07

But this pandemic has emotionally destroyed me and many other frontline workers.

01:56:12

The vaccine finally rolling out Me finally have the energy to doing something about my closet

01:56:18

And my fellow healthcare workers feeling actually protected for the first time Is a huge fucking hooray

01:56:24

I'm sure my therapist will unpack this all this week As I've been hiding the closet situation from her

01:56:31

Amen But I wanted my favorite ladies to know first Thanks for all you do, Em Em Sweet

01:56:41

oh my god I don't want to get like I know you don't want to hear it all the time but

01:56:45

thanks for all you fucking do my god yeah that's a beautifully written message and

01:56:54

it makes us very happy the idea that frontline workers are finally getting relief and

01:57:00

getting what they need is the best thank god so mine is from dd0323 on Instagram

01:57:08

my fucking hooray is I am pregnant with my first child, a baby girl. Being pregnant during a pandemic can be

01:57:19

really tough and isolating at times. I had my 20-week anatomy scan on January 20th. I also

01:57:26

happened to live in the suburbs of DC, so not like that day wasn't already exciting enough.

01:57:32

The scan showed that baby girl is, for lack of a better term, absolutely perfect and developing the

01:57:38

way she should. I was overwhelmed with emotions after getting that news, but then tuning in to

01:57:43

the inauguration coverage and knowing that my baby girl will not know in America where a woman has

01:57:49

never been vice president is just amazing. Wow. I have so much hope for the future of our country

01:57:56

and know that my baby girl has these incredible female role models to look up to. And then a

01:58:03

bunch of happy smiling crying amazing emojis yay congratulations congratulations that's wait

01:58:13

their name's dd her name's dd well her instagram name is dd d-e-e-d-e-e-e-0-3-2-3 amazing because

01:58:23

my this mine is also from a d this is from d-e-e-s oh wow and it just says my fucking hooray

01:58:31

were finally pouring the slab on my first project as a builder. Female, disabled, and they said I couldn't do it.

01:58:39

Well, fuck everyone and do it anyway. Oh my God. Why are these all going to make me cry tonight?

01:58:48

So good. Wow. Fucking hooray. Hell fucking yeah. Thanks for sending those in, you guys.

01:58:54

Thank you so much. Letting us share those. I hope you all know that you're supporting and fucking giving hope

01:59:00

to so many other people. And I know people read the hashtag fucking hooray and are just like

01:59:05

so supportive of each other. It's so important. It's a fucking new day. I mean, everything's still...

01:59:12

It's really nice. It is. And we can all get there together. I'm so excited. It's amazing.

01:59:17

There's really good news out there and we just have to remind each other every day it gets better.

01:59:24

And yeah, that's right. So cool. So thanks for listening. Thank you guys for being here with us

01:59:32

as we do this and stay sexy. And don't get murdered. Goodbye. Elvis, do you want a cookie?

01:59:41

Vacation planning should feel like a breeze, not a deep dive into countless travel sites

01:59:45

searching for the best deal. With Cheap Caribbean's Budget Beach Finder, you can search every destination

01:59:50

and every date all in one search. You'll save time and money with the Budget Beach Finder.

01:59:54

Say goodbye to endless scrolling and tab hopping and hello to Budget Beach Bliss

01:59:59

at your fingertips. Go to CheapCaribbean.com to try out the budget beach finder and see just how stress-free vacation planning should be.

02:00:06

Goodbye. While the world watches the stars at the FIFA World Cup, Hyundai has its eyes on the next generation of talent.

02:00:13

The future soccer stars who are already turning heads at age 14. Because next doesn't wait for an invitation.

02:00:18

And Hyundai doesn't either. Hyundai has always moved the future within reach. Hyundai did it by making advanced safety standard on every vehicle.

02:00:25

And by engineering EVs with ultra-fast charging capability. And Hyundai continues doing it every day because the future isn't some far off concept.

02:00:33

It's already here. Next starts now. Hyundai, an official partner of FIFA. Goodbye.

02:00:38

Clothes shopping, not as easy or fun as it sounds. You just want to feel confident in your clothes.

02:00:44

You can spend hours scrolling, zooming in, reading reviews, only to end up with a cart full of nothing that feels or fits right and a bunch of returns to do.

02:00:52

Stitch Fix makes it so much easier. A personal stylist sends pieces that match your size, style, and everything's in your budget.

02:00:58

No guesswork, no stress, and your guaranteed compliments. Here's how Stitch Fix works.

02:01:03

Take a quick style quiz, share your size, style, and budget, and get matched with a real human stylist who gets your vibe.

02:01:09

It's no risk, all style. Get a personalized fix box straight to your door and try it all on in the comfort of your home.

02:01:16

Shipping and returns are always free and there's no subscription required. Plus, get a free try-on for your first fix.

02:01:22

Get started today at stitchfix.com slash murder to get $20 off your first order.

02:01:27

That's stitchfix.com slash murder. Goodbye.

My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgi

259 - Fake Snow In Glendale

TLDR

Episode

Episode

Badges

Episode Highlights

Episode Quotes

Key Moments

Tension Over Time

Words per Minute Over Time

Vibes Breakdown