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00:01:27
Hello. and welcome to My Favorite Murder. Hey everyone, it's Steven, the audio engineer and editor of
00:01:35
My Favorite Murder. I am so excited and thrilled to kick off Exactly Right guest host picks.
00:01:44
Just for a little context, throughout the months of June and July, you're going to hear from
00:01:50
Exactly Right hosts and family members who are longtime listeners of My Favorite Murder.
00:01:55
and they're going to pick their favorite story from Karen and their favorite story from Georgia.
00:02:02
And this week, I'm going first. It's unbelievable. I celebrated my fifth year anniversary working on the show.
00:02:11
My first recordings were episode 17 and many so too back in May of 2016. And it has been wild to see how much we've grown over the years to all the people
00:02:24
and the whole network and everything. It's honestly just breathtaking almost. It's just amazing to see how far we've come.
00:02:34
And yeah, I'm excited to share my favorite murder stories by Karen and Georgia. All right, to kick things off, we're going to take it all the way back to 2016, episode 32, just the 32 of us.
00:03:02
It's Georgia's telling of the life and murder of Selena. And this is not only my favorite murder, but it was a very special episode for me because Karen and Georgia were truly welcoming me into the show and into the family.
00:03:15
And yeah, it was just a it was just really good to re-listen to this. And now enjoy Georgia's telling of the life and murder of Selena.
00:03:23
All right. My favorite murder this week is Selena Quintinilla Perez. No. And the reason I'm doing it is that it is audio engineer Stevie Ray Morris of the podcast's favorite murder tribute.
00:03:38
Yeah, no, I. You've been sending me shit. Yeah, I was like sending me texts and I was like, oh, my God, I'm watching.
00:03:43
And then Aaron Brockovich did like a true crime screen about it that I watched the other day.
00:03:48
Well, I grew up listening to Selena because I'm half my family. I'm half Mexican.
00:03:51
And so that music was always playing. And I remember, like, even listening to the music, just feeling really sad.
00:03:57
Were you little when she died, so you didn't know yet? I mean, I knew it affected because I would still go over to my family's houses and stuff.
00:04:05
She was huge. She was like Madonna times 20. Well, I'll tell you all about it. Oh, oh.
00:04:12
Did I say even Quintanilla? Quintanilla. Oh, I don't. I mean, I'm not Mexican, but I don't know how to speak Spanish.
00:04:18
Okay, I wrote it down like I was very... She didn't know how to speak Spanish either.
00:04:21
I know. I know. All right. Both of you, shut up. Oops. Oh, Karen, your doorbell phone is ringing.
00:04:29
Selena Quintanilla Perez was born on April 16th, 1971 in Lake Jackson, Texas, and was
00:04:36
called the Mexican-American Madonna. Oh, I must have known that. I've watched the movie with J-Lo.
00:04:42
I haven't seen it. Wonderful. Gosh, she's beautiful. They were both beautiful. And she was poised to become a crossover success when her death turned her into a legend.
00:04:54
Selena's father discovered Selena's, quote, perfect timing and pitch and helped his kids form a band.
00:04:59
And she was like nine years old when they started performing. Wow. The band, once her parents lost their family restaurant, the band became the family's main source of income.
00:05:08
And they were in poverty. And this career, Selena's career, just took them out of poverty.
00:05:13
because they were evicted from their home during the Texas oil bust of 1982, and they moved to Corpus Christi, Texas, which sounds very hot, doesn't it?
00:05:22
Yeah, I think it's super southern in Texas, like down in the Gulf, maybe. Right.
00:05:28
That's a total guess. I know. I was like, right. Do I want to? Well, my cousin Cheryl lived in Corpus Christi when I was like in junior high.
00:05:35
Okay. But why do I ever say anything? Is that a big military town? I think it is.
00:05:41
Yes. In fact, it has 25 that I have no fucking clue. Let's just talk about Corpus Christi for the rest of this.
00:05:46
So then the family band began recording music professionally. And in 1984 when Selena was I think 13 the band released its first LP Selena Los Dinos Fuck I hope you don get it Selena and Fred Flintstone dog Dinosaur
00:06:05
Hate mail can be sent to Karen Kilgareff. I'm just translating. Karen Kilgareff's apartment or house, the address is.
00:06:13
So, yes, Stephen, you are correct. Selena was a third generation Texan of Mexican descent.
00:06:19
So she didn't grow up speaking Spanish. So she didn't know any. but she learned all her songs phonetically
00:06:24
and when her popularity grew she had to learn it and she did it very quickly just like Roxette
00:06:29
like what? the band Roxette what were they German? yeah or Swedish or something oh they had to learn English?
00:06:37
well no they just sang phonetically they didn't know what they were saying that's funny
00:06:40
must have been love but it's all she had no clue what that song wow but it's so powerful
00:06:47
but it sounds so powerful the ignorance makes it powerful That's what it is. Like, because that's what love does to you.
00:06:54
Like, she's a stupid idiot. That's right. Okay. Grew in popularity in the year 1987.
00:07:01
She won the Tanejo. Oh, God. Tejano? Tejano Music Award. I like, I was watching videos to get this correctly, and I'm just screwing it all up.
00:07:11
Tejano Music Award for Female Vocalist of the Year. And then she landed her first major record deal with Capital Latin in 1989.
00:07:19
So she performed several times at the Houston Astrodome to sold out crowds of more than 60,000 people.
00:07:26
And after her death time described her as the embodiment of young, smart, hip Mexican-American youth from a tight-knit family and a down-to-earth personality, a Madonna without the controversy.
00:07:39
Essentially, she was a huge Mexican-American star in her community and was poised to become a mainstream success.
00:07:45
And that community was obsessed with her and proud of her and felt like, you know, she was one of their own.
00:07:53
And she was a big fucking deal. Yeah. And she seemed like a very sweet person. Everyone in her band was her family, except the guy, the guitarist they hired, who she ended up marrying.
00:08:04
Like, they were, they seemed like good people. It's like a Jackson 5 situation. Totally.
00:08:09
Like super talented young kid. Yeah, but not creepy. And her dad was the manager.
00:08:14
So they were very tight-knit. More like a Partridge family. There we go. But actually a real band.
00:08:19
Or like a Manson family. Fuck. Cut that out. Don't cut that out. I'm not sorry. All right.
00:08:27
Where am I? Cut to mid-1991. Yolanda Saldivar. She was... So you see all these photos of her and videos of her.
00:08:36
When she got arrested, she was 35 years old. What? That's quote unquote my age. Okay, so 91, Yolanda Saldivar was around 30.
00:08:46
And she was an in-home nurse for patients with terminal cancer and just a fan of Tejano music.
00:08:53
Just a fucking random woman. She had a history of stealing money from her employers as well as trying to become intertwined with the lives of other performers.
00:09:02
and she attended one of Selena's concerts and became a fucking psychotic fan. With the intent of starting Selena's fan club,
00:09:12
she started obsessively calling Selena's father, leaving almost 15 messages until he gave her permission in June of 1991
00:09:19
to be the president of the fan club, which sounds like, okay, you know what? Take this, run with it, do your thing, right?
00:09:26
Right, because you're harassing us. Yeah. So, I mean, that's, it's, it's the thing that they didn't know back then that people know
00:09:33
nowadays, which is don't engage. Right. Yeah. 15 calls to anybody at any time is too many.
00:09:39
Yeah. I don't care if like you have a flat tire and you're calling AAA. But it's almost like, well, she's being consistent and she wants to run this thing and make us
00:09:46
more money. And it's a thing that we haven't started and maybe it'll help her with her.
00:09:50
Like, this is what I'm thinking was there. You know what I mean? I'm just saying that's three calls.
00:09:53
Totally. In a day. Totally. Totally. Also, like you don't need to have contact with her after that.
00:10:00
Okay. So as president of the fam club, she was responsible for membership benefits, collecting money and promoting Selena.
00:10:07
All that kind of thing. And she actually didn't meet Selena until December 91, but they became close friends and Yolanda became a trusted, trusted by her whole family.
00:10:19
In 94, she became Selena's assistant and quit her job as a nurse. Oh, I didn't know that.
00:10:24
Yeah. I did not know that. I thought she was just the fan club. No. She became her assistant.
00:10:29
She quit her job as a nurse, even though she was making more money as a nurse than she was doing this.
00:10:33
She was just so obsessed and had posters all over her house. And people come over.
00:10:37
She would just make them watch Selena videos, talked about nothing else, and was just kind of crazy about Selena.
00:10:46
Wow. Yeah. I was kind of that way about kids in the hall for a little while. But it was a dark period of my life.
00:10:52
Yeah, I was just, I had flunked out of college and I was just weirdly obsessed. It was when they were running them on Comedy Central and I just, it was the only thing that
00:10:59
made me happy. That laugh was the creepiest. That was, I've never heard that laugh before.
00:11:05
I just realized, I mean, every, we all have the potential. Everybody likes a thing.
00:11:08
Sure. Like crazy. And wants them, like has this feeling of like ownership and like, yeah.
00:11:13
And like, I, no one understands it the way I understand it. It's almost made for me kind of a thing.
00:11:18
Yes. But have you met them and told them that? See, my thing is that, and maybe it's just from working in TV, I really don't like celebrities.
00:11:26
Like, there's nothing more disappointing, and I think most people know it these days from reality TV and stuff.
00:11:32
Celebrities are very disappointing in real life. Except for us. I'm just kidding.
00:11:36
I'm not calling them. Yeah, no, they're just, I mean, the most they'll be is slightly pleasant.
00:11:43
But for the most part, you will have regretted trying to be like, hey, can I get a picture?
00:11:49
I'm a big fan or whatever. I love Jewin and it's some obscure thing They don't care
00:11:53
It super weird It ruins it almost Good luck everybody good luck in life with your fucking cute little fantasies um all right well then so in 94 selena starts opening fashion boutiques she has two of them
00:12:13
opening up it's called selena etc um i didn't know that yeah i didn't either because she has
00:12:19
this crazy style it's very 90s and very like on point like you know almost madonna-y but a little
00:12:26
more hip right cute it's those cute well from what i remember in the movie there's like a lot
00:12:32
of ruffles yeah and a lot of like you know shimmery velvety pants and stuff like that
00:12:38
earrings and red lipstick and yeah it's totally pretty fucking sweet um so so she she's opening
00:12:46
these clothing, these fashion stores and ask Sal Devar to become the manager of the boutiques.
00:12:52
So Sal Devar, because of doing this, is authorized to write and cash checks, had access to the
00:12:57
bank accounts associated with the fan club and the boutiques. And Selena gave her an American Express card for the purpose of conducting company business.
00:13:06
So she put her stalker, she made her stalker the CEO of the company. Doesn't know that she's the stalker though.
00:13:12
Oh, right. Oh, yeah. Selena has no idea that she's the stalker. She just thinks she's a good friend of hers.
00:13:18
That's like willing to do all this hard work. Yeah. That's like, you know, Selena's in this bubble of becoming famous and touring and all these things.
00:13:28
And this person is becoming a trusted confidant and is a huge fan. And clearly is an intelligent woman if she's a nurse.
00:13:36
Yeah. That other. Yeah, totally. Okay. Yeah. And everyone said she was very manipulative and good at, you know, being manipulative.
00:13:45
Yeah. Fifteen calls. That's all I have to say. Yeah. Fifteen calls. It worked somehow.
00:13:49
So within a year, Saldivar had mismanaged the boutiques and they were failing. And then upon investigation, the family finds out that Saldivar had embezzled more than,
00:14:00
I saw $60,000, but I also saw $100,000. Wow. And forged checks from both the fan club and the boutiques.
00:14:06
but Selena refused to believe it. She was like, no way, that's my friend. Even her father, who was a manager,
00:14:12
and her husband and brother were like, dude. They were like, dude. Probably not like that.
00:14:18
But eventually, Selena kind of sees some shit going on and believes it, and the family fires her,
00:14:25
tells her not to come near Selena. But Selena still wanted to stay friends. She was like, you don't work for me anymore,
00:14:30
but let's stay friends. So at this time, Saldovar purchases a snub-nosed .38 caliber revolver.
00:14:39
And here's what I think is the fucked up thing, is .38 caliber hollow point bullets.
00:14:44
Then the bullets were designed to cause more extensive injuries than normal bullets.
00:14:48
Oh, no. Which, like, throws out, later we'll talk about it. So on March 31st in 1995, she convinces Selena to meet her alone in a days-in motel room,
00:14:58
promising to return financial documents that she had stolen, and telling Selena that she had to come alone and that Yolanda had been raped and needed someone to talk to.
00:15:09
Oh, no. And she has to make up this lie because three other times in the past couple weeks,
00:15:16
Yolanda had tried to get her alone and it had been foiled every time and her husband had come
00:15:20
or they had met in a parking lot or something like that. So Yolanda was trying to get her alone.
00:15:26
Yeah. So in the hotel room, they kind of fight over the documents. And as they're doing that, the gun comes out.
00:15:37
And Selena turns to run out the door. And Saldivar shoots her in the back as she's running out, severing an artery leading from her heart.
00:15:48
And it came out the front of her chest on the other side. So it's kind of like a shoulder shot.
00:15:52
And Selena's running towards the motel lobby as she's bleeding. And Saldovar comes.
00:16:00
There was a witness said that she chased after her, pointing the gun at her and calling her a bitch.
00:16:06
Selena ran 130 yards to the motel's lobby and collapsed on the floor. And meanwhile, Yolanda's now trying to escape in her car.
00:16:14
And it was theorized that she's heading to the recording studio where the rest of Selena's family is to kill them.
00:16:20
That's what they thought. But a police officer who was around the corner responded, stopped her.
00:16:27
And instead of getting out of the car, she pulls the car into a parking space and gets kind of blocked in in this parking spot.
00:16:34
So she's in her car in a parking spot with a gun, won't come out. In the meantime, the motel staff is trying to help Selena.
00:16:43
an ambulance comes in less than two minutes but Selena's pronounced dead at 105 from loss
00:16:50
of blood and cardiac arrest her last words were this fucking makes me want to cry
00:16:56
her last words Yolanda Saldivar room 158 those were her last words like not tell my family
00:17:02
I love them she was just trying to make sure they knew who did it which makes me so sad
00:17:07
the last words out of your mouth about your killer's name well yeah I mean I know like I know like you should get them out but then I just wish it
00:17:16
could then be like something sweeter she was only 23 years old oh no I know baby well an
00:17:23
autopsy is performed and this is what I thought when I heard about her running after getting shot
00:17:28
she died of heart failure wait no we realized Selena's heart fueled by adrenaline and I think
00:17:35
from running pumped all the blood out of her circulatory system so I feel like if she hadn't
00:17:41
run. She either might have gotten shot again by Yolanda, or the blood might not have.
00:17:48
It's those hollow point bullets. Yeah. I mean, I don't think you can get shot and it comes out the other side and you can
00:17:53
survive that, right? No because isn that part of it is like they explode inside you And so when they come out they just instead of a bullet hole size coming out it like rips out I mean those things are evil
00:18:05
Yeah. Well, that's the thing is so. So Sal Devar is trying to say I was trying to say that it was an accident that she was going to kill herself.
00:18:12
But it's like, well, why did you buy those bullets that? Yeah. Like you clearly had a motive.
00:18:17
so meanwhile there's a nine hour standoff with yolanda in which she is in her car with the gun
00:18:23
to her head hysterically on the phone with the hostage or with the negotiator trying to say that
00:18:29
she didn't mean to kill her she was an accident she was trying to kill herself um and all these
00:18:35
other excuses but ultimately let's see she gave herself in and she got arrested she's tried for
00:18:42
first degree murder and claimed that the gun quote accidentally went off and all these other
00:18:47
excuses, but ultimately it didn't work. And the jurors deliberated for less than three hours.
00:18:53
And on October 23rd, 1995, they found Saldovara guilty. She's sentenced to life in prison with
00:19:00
the possibility of parole in 30 years, which is going to be March 2025. But everyone's like,
00:19:07
she is so incredibly hated in Texas. She will be murdered. And she has to be in solitary confinement because of that.
00:19:15
Because the rest of the... Everybody wants to kill her in jail. Yeah. Everyone in jail who was huge Selena fans her whole life
00:19:20
wants to fucking murder her. Yeah, that's... I mean, yeah. Yeah. So she spends every day, 23 hours a day, alone
00:19:28
in a nine by six foot cell. Let's see. So the case has been described as the most important trial
00:19:35
for the Latino population and it was compared to the O.J. Simpson murder trial. It was one of the most
00:19:41
publicly followed trials in the history of Texas. Wow. Her posthumous 1995 crossover album
00:19:47
Dreaming of You debuted at number one on the Billboard charts and became triple platinum.
00:19:52
That just gave me chills. I know. She was the first Hispanic artist to have a predominantly
00:19:56
Spanish language album debut and peak at number one. That's so fucking cool. I know.
00:20:03
I mean, terribly sad, But also because I remember that being in the movie where it's like the it's a tragedy anyway.
00:20:10
Yeah. But this was someone who was poised on the verge of crossing over at a time before that was like before J-Lo, before any of those things were happening.
00:20:21
Well, we remember like in the late you and I and people are, I don't remember in the late 90s, like this huge, this huge Latin pop explosion.
00:20:31
And that was like the first time it became mainstream. So Selena's doing this in the early 90s.
00:20:36
Yeah. She's for Ricky Martin. Right. Before like any of that where it was kind of like the sexy, you know, Shakira, any of that stuff.
00:20:44
That wasn't on American pop radio yet. Like that was not on there at all. So she was kind of a trailblazer and seemed like a good person.
00:20:56
And this fan, like I didn't know. I always pictured it differently. And it's just like so fucking tragic.
00:21:03
Well, it's also fascinating that thing of like when you can it's like when you were saying, you know, she's just this random person.
00:21:10
But you do trace those things of like a person who embezzles a person who like those kind of smaller crimes.
00:21:19
That's how every story goes like this, where it's like they always have a background where they're trying to get anything they want at any price.
00:21:28
And they have gray area morals, too. Yeah. If I knew a friend embezzled money, I would not trust that person.
00:21:39
No, you're not allowed to steal money from other people. It's not your money. No.
00:21:42
No, you don't get to have... You have to abide by certain rules in life and not screw other people over.
00:21:48
And you don't want to be that person. I remember there was a cafe I was working at when I was a teen.
00:21:55
and I had it in my mind. I decided that I could take a $20 bill when I was closing at night so I could buy beer
00:22:01
because they only paid me minimum wage. I had this whole rationalization. And I did it two times, was racked with guilt about it.
00:22:11
And then the manager told me, did I tell you this earlier? The manager, who was also my friend, like someone I hung out with, he goes,
00:22:17
I don't, something's going on. We're always short. I think it might be the janitor.
00:22:21
And then I was like, oh my, because that's what happens. You steal, somebody else could go down for it.
00:22:26
Or like, I mean, the idea that he even would suspect this person who has nothing to do with it.
00:22:31
Then I thought maybe he told me that because he knew it was me. Because it was always me.
00:22:36
He did. Or it was me the two times. And that was just a manipulation, which God bless you, genius move.
00:22:41
Yeah. But also like, and then like the next week I was talking to my dad on the phone and we were talking about something else.
00:22:48
And then he goes, Karen, there's some people out there that just can't keep their hands out of the till.
00:22:52
Oh. And then I almost threw up because I was like, I almost wanted to go, that's me.
00:22:57
My dad, my sweet dad is talking about bad people. And I'm the bad person. And you're one.
00:23:02
You don't want to be the bad person. No. You don't need whatever the thing is you think you need.
00:23:06
You don't. Get your own. Get your own. Get your own. You can. Yeah. Wow. Keep your hands out of the kitty.
00:23:15
That's super weird that I talked about that picture. It is so weird. Sorry about that.
00:23:19
I didn't mean to tip it. No, I don't care. It's super, like we've never talked about her before.
00:23:22
No, not at all. That is super weird. While the world watches the stars at the FIFA World Cup this summer, Hyundai has its eyes on the next generation of talent.
00:23:32
The future soccer stars who are already turning heads at age 14. Making plays that end up on everyone's feed, scoring from angles that don't make sense, rewriting record books that barely had time to gather dust.
00:23:42
Because Next doesn't wait for an invitation, and Hyundai doesn't either. Hyundai has always moved the future within reach.
00:23:48
Hyundai did it by making advanced safety standard on every vehicle. Hyundai did it by engineering EVs with ultra-fast charging capability.
00:23:56
And Hyundai continues doing it every day. From robotics that change how people do it,
00:24:00
Live to young athletes changing the game. The future isn't some far off concept.
00:24:04
It's already here. Next starts now. Hyundai, an official partner of FIFA. Goodbye.
00:24:10
If there's one thing to know about traveling with dogs, it's that they can't eat like you do on vacation.
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This is great for people who go out of town with their dog. But for people who go out of town without their dog, this is also just like easy.
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Terms and conditions apply. See Pandora.net for more details. Goodbye. What a tragic story.
00:25:15
What a beautiful story. What a beautiful person. And Georgia did a damn great job telling it.
00:25:20
And now we're taking it back to 2018 with Karen's story from episode 133, Made of Crystals. It's the Lady of the Dunes. And I think for me, this is my favorite murder of Karen's because it combines all the things I love about Karen. It's a good mystery. It's a cold, you know, windswept beach. There's movies, Hollywood involved, Stephen King. I won't spoil anything. You're going to love it. Enjoy the Lady of the Dunes.
00:25:48
okay so we will we will downshift uh slightly here thank you jesus yeah this one is older
00:25:56
less intense and has an has some interesting um layers to it pre-1990 yes okay but i liked it
00:26:08
because lately i haven't there have been times obviously all my life where i will sit there and
00:26:14
watch like if it's like real detective I just watch every single episode and then sometimes
00:26:19
I'll make notes and then later go back and be like oh that's a good case yeah but lately I haven't I
00:26:24
I think it's just I think it's the heat I think it's like cultural political stuff that's happening
00:26:29
where I just want less of everything and so when I go to do those things the things that used to
00:26:36
relieve my anxiety they cause more so now I've been going doing watching things where it's like
00:26:42
slow and easy and low key and like far away. So like the Japanese TV show that we watched last night together.
00:26:50
Let's talk about it. Fucking hooray. Okay. You'll hear it. Georgia busted out a show last night.
00:26:55
I had no idea. You didn't know. Let's, we'll talk about it. We'll save it. Okay.
00:26:59
So anyway, I love that people constantly suggest cases to us. Like, have you covered this?
00:27:05
Why haven't you covered this? And it's funny because I, you know, there's too many questions to answer on Twitter,
00:27:10
But sometimes the answer is we did it in a live show. You just haven't heard it yet or it hasn't been posted yet or we can't post it for whatever reason.
00:27:18
Or like, like, for example, I read the research of Danny Rawling that Stephen put together for me when we went to Florida.
00:27:26
But when you're doing a live show and you have consist you have a 30 minute story of people going, oh, yeah, it's like it's like not as fun for us.
00:27:36
And that's in the not even just a live show, but an actual recording to like it's really hard.
00:27:40
to do stories like what I just did, or like the eyeball killer, or like any kind of
00:27:44
fucking child murder. I'm like, why don't you do this one? It's like, because we don't want to fucking talk about it.
00:27:48
Yeah. And there's no way to do it. Like, that was the cleanest I could have done it
00:27:52
without talking about his fucking past and getting really descriptive about the mutilation. Yeah, we still
00:27:58
have to do it so that we walk away here and not bummed out. Yeah. As much as anybody else.
00:28:04
Which is fine. It's a version of how to talk about true crime. Which is why we love when people are like,
00:28:08
Have you done this one? I have so many screen grabbed and saved that people having suggested things like I've never
00:28:13
fucking heard of that one before. Same. And I am always looking for I just like the weirdness.
00:28:19
So even like especially lately, I've been like, has anyone ever been killed by a random
00:28:24
cyclone? I'm doing stuff like that where I'm like, you're making this way too hard for yourself.
00:28:28
Yeah. And then this one came up the other day because there was this article in The Washington Post
00:28:33
a bunch of people sent to us. So I would like to thank listeners, Natalia and Amanda and the first one to have posted this article and say, hey, what about this?
00:28:45
Have you ever heard of this theory? I love that you're giving fucking first person credit.
00:28:49
This is right. First is like, come on. First is the best. First is first. Fruity Troll Roll got this to us first.
00:28:56
Of course. Good old Fruity Troll Roll. FTR. FTR. Yeah, you know. I was like, can you please find?
00:29:03
Because I really want to give credit. This is something that came to me. And sometimes I rely so heavily on those suggestions.
00:29:10
And Fruity Trollroll was like, hey, you guys. And I was like, thank you. So this is the story.
00:29:17
I get so excited. Karen just one second in me. And now I'm like on the edge of my fucking couch.
00:29:24
I just want to double my article couch. Check. Wait, uh-oh. Karen has a pen in her mouth, which absolutely disgusts me.
00:29:33
Don't ever put your pen and pencils in your mouth, people. It's just germ city. It's like licking a fucking doorknob, especially in this house.
00:29:40
You've seen my cat sit butthole first on a pen, Karen. God damn it, Georgia. That thing was in the mouth.
00:29:46
Also, I don't know why I'm feeling the silence when we could really just have to cut it out.
00:29:51
That's right. I like it. It like I somehow fallen and you have to cover And I covering with a couple glasses of wine that I had And I just going to fill the time Elvis how do you feel about it Great Thank you Frutti Trollroll for sending the story of the Lady of the Dunes
00:30:09
Have you heard this one? Oh, shit. Yes, but I don't. Yes. Okay. This is a cold case from 1974.
00:30:18
Oh, I know. Yes. Do you know? Yes. And did you read this article? Yeah, but I was like, I've heard this before.
00:30:24
Like I didn't like pay attention to it. Okay. So great. So this was just in the Washington Post and which is why it's kind of come back around.
00:30:31
And in this article and sorry, it was the article was written by a guy named Isaac Stanley Becker for the Washington Post.
00:30:39
And it's really it's it's so fascinating and it's cool and it's about somebody. But then it's also about this cold case.
00:30:46
And there's a movie involved, which, of course, you know, I love. So it was all very interesting.
00:30:52
But it's very pop culture. It is. And kind of timely. It crosses lots of interest lines or makes a lot of connections.
00:31:00
But also there's a book written by a writer named Deborah Halber. She wrote it in 2014 called The Skeleton Crew, which is about online sleuths solving crimes.
00:31:13
Fucking fun. And so they refer to this cold case as the Holy Grail of a case to be solved.
00:31:22
So I think that's why it comes up a lot. And I also think it comes up a lot because the police in this area, Provincetown, Massachusetts, kind of haven't let it go.
00:31:33
They just keep bringing it back to the news. It seems like every 10 years. It's like the one that they really want to solve and can't.
00:31:39
But it's also got a really cool name that's creepy. The Lady in the Dunes. That's like the Talmud Shud kind of case where it's like, what is that?
00:31:48
It's intriguing. That's right. Also, I just said the lady in the dunes, which is what I wrote in this document.
00:31:53
It's the lady of the dunes. I keep saying as if it's the lady in the water, the M. Night Shyamalan film that I don't think that many people saw.
00:32:02
It's the lady of the dunes. Okay, so essentially here's how it goes. On Friday, July 26, 1974, a 13-year-old girl is walking her beagle along the Race Point Dunes in Provincetown,
00:32:16
and her parents are there. they're visiting their friend who lives in one of what they called the artist studio or it was an
00:32:24
artist studio they were called the dune shacks so they were these um these old shacks that basically
00:32:30
people went and lived in and kind of refurbished and it was like because it was away from everything
00:32:34
and like everything's like like what like seesaw orn and shit exactly i'm thinking of um the lost
00:32:40
boys right now like you know like that kind of when they pull into town and shit that's santa
00:32:46
cruise you know oh right yes okay um yes well then i'm thinking of the wrong city you're thinking
00:32:51
the wrong coast but it's that feel because it's beachy but it's very remote yeah um and so she's
00:33:00
walking her dog right because her parents are back it's 1974 it's an artist shack yeah so you know
00:33:06
she's like bye i'm i'm gonna walk around the dunes and when she gets to this basically a patch of
00:33:13
pine trees. Her dog smells something, runs off. Beagles. They're good at that. Those fucking
00:33:18
beagles. And she finds in a clearing the body of a woman who's lying face down on a green beach
00:33:25
blanket naked. And the woman has been there long enough and she's in the state of decomposition
00:33:31
that she's kind of a bluish green color. So of course, the little girl runs back to her parents
00:33:39
and they call the park ranger station and head ranger jim hankins is the first person to arrive
00:33:45
on the scene so he finds the body of this woman she's five six she's somewhere between the ages
00:33:52
of 20 and 49 they can't really tell though because she has so much um damage and decomposition
00:33:57
around her face and head oh my god um uh she has an athletic build she has long auburn hair
00:34:04
and it's tied back in a ponytail with a gold flecked hairband and her toenails are painted pink.
00:34:11
And her hands are, they look like they're dug into the sand like she was doing a push-up.
00:34:18
Yeah, like trying to get up. Yeah, but actually when he looks closer, her hands have been removed.
00:34:24
Oh my God. Isn't it insane that someone could lay there that long without being detected?
00:34:29
They think it was between it could have between then between one to three weeks.
00:34:36
Holy shit. So that's kind of how remote this area is. Yeah. And at the time, what the park rangers were trying to figure out is like they knew who drove in and out of that park.
00:34:45
Right. Because you had to go by the park ranger station. Sure. And that's the old sign up here and we brought down your license and they know everything.
00:34:51
Yeah. So they don't know who she is. She didn't have a car. They don't know how she got to such a remote location.
00:34:58
It's also so creepy that she's on a beach like she's not no one like tried to hide her.
00:35:02
It's like the place where she lost. It's almost like she laid down on this beach blanket and died.
00:35:07
But right. But no. Yeah. And because she's so basically because she's naked. Yeah.
00:35:15
And there's no overt sign of assault or struggle. They are thinking that she could have been.
00:35:22
She was laying in this patch and it was she went into the patch of trees so that nobody could see her from the beach.
00:35:28
beach because this is like in the dunes area. So it's away from the water. And she went to
00:35:34
basically not have tan lines. So she's nude sunbathing, maybe falls asleep in the sun.
00:35:40
And that's when she gets hit in the head, blunt force trauma cracks her skull. And that was the
00:35:46
cause of death. When they do the autopsy or figure out the angles, they realize the person
00:35:54
who hit her was probably laying next to her What Yes Because that the angle of the blow Hit her while they were laying next to her Right So either she knew the person and that why there no struggle
00:36:08
and she was asleep or just laying there calmly. Sure. Or she was asleep, and the person came and, like, laid down.
00:36:16
I mean, like, it's just like you can run 17 creepy scenarios. She didn't jump up in fear in any way.
00:36:22
So, yeah. She either was asleep or she knew the person. Right. Or wasn't threatened in some way by this person.
00:36:28
Right. And the reason that they don't believe and there's not evidence of sexual assaults because she's, yes, she's nude, but her jeans are folded up underneath her head.
00:36:44
Okay. And so it's like laid out in that position in that scenario and that with a pillow.
00:36:50
Right. And her the towel she's laying on is not disturbed. the sand around her is not disturbed, which is very strange.
00:36:58
So strange. So all of that is, you know, that's that takes a while for them to put all that together.
00:37:06
But basically, once head ranger Jim Hankins basically sees what's honest, you know, what
00:37:13
they have there, he calls police police chief Jimmy Meats at home. And so when the police further investigate, they find that she had dental work that they call they classify it as New York style because it costs between five and ten thousand dollars.
00:37:33
So she had what year was it again? Seventy four. That's crazy. And she had seven gold crowns.
00:37:40
Holy shit. So there it's the idea that this is not, you know, in their minds. Yeah.
00:37:45
it's not a runaway she hasn't been living on the street this is a person who has been taken care of
00:37:50
who's had a good life or at least access to good dental care which means you're not probably not
00:37:56
in a rural setting yeah or like yeah the best insurance or whatever it's just it's uh oh my god
00:38:03
you know it's not someone who's like i've been drug addict living off the street and i'm trying
00:38:07
to sleep in the gym sure they're like there's this is something else some of her teeth have
00:38:12
been removed and they don't know when and they you know like not they don't know if it's prior or
00:38:18
didn't specify but i mean i think it was i think it was they believe in the act like her teeth were
00:38:25
removed because later on they suspect whitey boulder boulder he they actually question him
00:38:33
okay keep going this is okay i'm so i i only know the basics of this and i'm so fucking deep into this and sad it's very cool but also i will say this there's i'm sure so much more
00:38:44
online because so many people have done the internet work about this so if if you want the
00:38:49
deep dive to know all these details and i would highly recommend you know first of all this i
00:38:55
already bought and started deborah halber's book the skeleton crew and it's great i'm doing it
00:39:00
immediately it's great um but also this is just this is something that you know it's one of those
00:39:06
things that if I right now went online and then saw where people are like the Whitey Bulger theory
00:39:12
is so immature or whatever where I'm always like afterwards I always go like why don't I check Reddit first
00:39:17
they know everything. Reddit knows everything. They know everything. I know. So let me get back to my
00:39:24
paragraph. Go ahead. Do it then. I'm going to wait here and just talk until you find it.
00:39:30
They find two sets of footprints leading to her body. is when jesus that's terrible that is it's what we do and then 50 yards away there's a set of tire
00:39:42
tracks but all the park rangers all the vehicles were accounted for yeah so uh that doesn't like
00:39:51
that never helps anybody but what if it's one of the park rangers i mean could be that's reddit
00:39:57
they're like god damn it georgia like we already fucking we did that already twice we did it in
00:40:02
1997. Okay. They think her body could have been there for up to three weeks. But because they're at the dunes, there's lots of insects.
00:40:11
The decomposition makes it hard. And she's laying in the sun. Yeah. She's laying in a patch where there's lots of grass around her.
00:40:18
Also, the picture. Is that a photo? There's pictures. Actually, do you mind just clicking on that article so that I can show Georgia?
00:40:28
Look, I'm going to do it at some point tonight, whether it's when you guys are here or when
00:40:31
you're gone and I can't sleep. Stop confronting me about your picture. No, what I'm saying is
00:40:35
I'm a monster. Just show it to me now. Okay, but don't look, but Stephen, don't look at it. I should just not make Stephen look
00:40:43
at this. I want Stephen to sue us for traumatic stress at some point. No, it's a
00:40:51
Washington Post article. So essentially, her face and head are unidentifiable because of the wound, because of the
00:40:59
decomposition, even though the head trauma because her skull was cracked. That was determined to be the
00:41:05
cause of death. She's also strangled so severely that she was almost decapitated.
00:41:11
Which was also a Whitey Bulger thing of garroting people, I think. I don't really know anything about Whitey Bulger.
00:41:20
Bulger, I think? Every time I say it, I think I should be saying another one. I don't know anything about him.
00:41:25
He's a hitman. I know he's a hitman, but I didn't know. Well, then you do know something
00:41:29
about him. Okay, hold on. You got me back earlier. Yeah. That sounded like you feel the sting of it.
00:41:36
Third grader. And it hurt and it really hurt. It brought it back to third grade.
00:41:39
I need to fucking write a new chapter for the book about that third grade. Good.
00:41:43
That'll be for the that's bonus content. Yeah. Oh, I see it. It's like a far away.
00:41:49
You can't really tell. You can't really see. But you can like see that. Oh, I see her foot.
00:41:54
I see that there something Oh poor baby the only clothes that were found there were a blue bandana and that pair of jeans that were folded under her head So she also had a hamburger and french fries in her stomach which meant that she had been in town recently because she hadn metabolized those yet
00:42:14
So there's nowhere to get any of that stuff where she was. So, of course, they begin searching and questioning as many people as they can.
00:42:22
And they look through missing person reports and the list of vehicles that were in the entire area at the time.
00:42:29
They're getting nothing back. Then when the police chief first sees the scene, the first person he thinks of is they had just had he had just prosecuted and sent to jail a serial killer named Tony Costa.
00:42:43
And for a second, he thinks this could be his work. And then but that would be impossible because Tony Costa had hung himself in jail two months before.
00:42:51
but it would it had been right before crazy um bummer there was another lead that they had which
00:42:57
i think is interesting it was an escaped female prisoner named rory kessinger and who was around
00:43:03
25 at the time she had disappeared and so they were like maybe why do we know more about this
00:43:09
woman i know i mean you can google it i'm sure there's plenty to know and reddit's like we'll
00:43:14
fucking tell you um but when they went and took dna from kessinger's mother obviously later on
00:43:21
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Terms and conditions apply. See Pandora.net for more details. Goodbye. Goodbye. So then there's the Whitey Boulder theory because he removed his victim's teeth.
00:45:38
so you couldn't identify them as easily. And hands. And hands. So no fingerprints.
00:45:44
But I don't know if that was his thing. Right. He had also been seen with a woman resembling the victim around the same time.
00:45:50
That's where he was like located and shit? Yeah, yeah. He was, I think he was Boston.
00:45:55
Everyone can now go watch the Johnny Depp movie about him. Okay. And learn everything.
00:46:00
I don't like Johnny Depp and I refuse to watch his movies. I just don't like hit men.
00:46:04
I just don't. I don't like men who hit. No. of any kind. So the police question him, but they can't ever link him to anything. There's no
00:46:13
evidence linking him except for the MO. Yeah. Then there's a serial killer named Haddon Clark,
00:46:19
who I've never heard of. He was also a paranoid schizophrenic and he was in jail at the time.
00:46:25
He tells an inmate, quote, I could have given the cops her name because I killed her,
00:46:33
but not after they beat the shit out of me. So he also told the other inmate that what the cops are looking for was buried in his grandfather's garden.
00:46:44
And then finally, he sent a letter to his friend from jail saying he killed a woman in Cape Cod.
00:46:50
And then he did drawings of a handless woman on her stomach naked. He did it. And along with a map where her body was found.
00:46:59
He did it. I think it's him. He also led police where he claimed to have buried two women 20 years ago.
00:47:07
But none of these clues or leads or anything lead to actual evidence. Who is he?
00:47:13
I want to know this. Haddon Clark. I've never heard of him and didn't have time to do a separate book report on him.
00:47:19
So that's a future thing for you. Okay, great. But basically, with all these leads, this case goes cold.
00:47:26
So the police end up, over time, exhuming her body twice. So in 1980, basically the case goes cold for six years.
00:47:34
Then in 1980, authorities exhume her body so that they can test it for more leads.
00:47:39
They're like, we have to do something. Then they rebury the body, but they keep the skull because they know that there's evidence there that maybe they just don't know it now.
00:47:50
That's so awful. I know. And eventually, the police chief, James Meads, he puts the skull on his desk and
00:48:00
and leaves it there because he says he vows to find the name of this woman that the Lady of the Dunes will be identified before he retires.
00:48:11
So then again, they exhume her in 2000 because DNA developments, and so they gather more DNA that's protesting that they didn't have in 1980.
00:48:22
In 2010, the forensic reconstruction of the Lady of the Dunes face appears in the Boston Globe.
00:48:30
And that's when Deborah Halber, the author of The Skeleton Crew, she sees it in the globe and it inspires her to write a book about all these unsolved cases that people are working on on the Internet.
00:48:41
And that's basically what got her. The full name of the book, sorry, is The Skeleton Crew, How Amateur Sleuths Are Solving America's Coldest Cases.
00:48:49
Amazing. Very cool. So so this is the modern layer. OK, that's fun and exciting and weird.
00:48:57
OK, that made me go crazy. In 2015, there's a writer named Joe Hill, and he's watching an episode of Haunting Evidence.
00:49:09
The episode was from 2006. It was season one, episode six. He's watching it, and they bring up the lady of the dunes.
00:49:19
They show the facial reconstruction of her, and they describe the clothes that were found with her, the jeans, and the blue bandana.
00:49:29
That she wore around her head. The blue bandana. Yes. Like a chikur chief. Exactly.
00:49:35
We call it a schmata. And yet that's right. So basically he watches that and is fascinated by it.
00:49:42
And then soon after he goes to the 50th anniversary screening of Jaws. It's his favorite movie.
00:49:51
And he takes his three sons to go see it. and as they're watching, it's 54 minutes and two seconds into the movie.
00:50:00
You know the part where they reopen the beach so everyone can go to the beach for the 4th of July?
00:50:05
So they have all these big crowd scenes of people going to the beach. Wait, is that filmed in Cape Cod?
00:50:13
Yes. That's filmed, like, right there. It was filmed 100 miles. It was filmed in two different beach locations,
00:50:19
100 miles from where her body was found. Okay. But basically in the same, you know, state general area.
00:50:26
Okay. But not right there. Okay. But nearby. And when he's watching, he spots this woman in the crowd.
00:50:39
I've seen this. Oh, my God. She has a blue schmata kerchief on her head. Long auburn hair.
00:50:46
Long brown hair. Loose white t-shirt. Blue jeans. she looks mid-twenties just like a random woman in the background athletic build probably five six
00:50:57
yeah um and when you see her the the woman in this picture's nose is a bit bigger than the one
00:51:06
in the facial reconstruction it's creepy but it's he basically spotted it and then he talks about in
00:51:13
this article thank you in the Boston in the Washington Post article he talks about how
00:51:18
there's no rewind when you're at the movie right there's no pausing at the movies so then he was
00:51:22
just like freaking out and going could it be and he says he knows it's because he's a writer and
00:51:29
he writes like ghost stories and creepy stories yeah so he's like of course my brain wants to
00:51:33
fill that in and wants to make that connection but what if what if what if and so then he goes home And so wait the Jaws and that scene everything was filmed like right before she got murdered
00:51:43
or like she was found. That's right. So they were filming Jaws in 1974 in that area.
00:51:51
If I knew more about Cape Cod, I would be able to explain it, but I kind of can't.
00:51:55
But it's basically the explanation is within 100 miles. Yeah. Which I realize is wide, except they had to get people.
00:52:03
So those scenes, they had to get a shit fucking ton of people to show up because it had to be the thing of look at all these people here.
00:52:13
So it was hundreds and hundreds of extras. Small town. But that's also a typical outfit for the mid 70s, too.
00:52:21
Right. And the hair and the, you know, it's not that out of character for a woman to be wearing that at the beach.
00:52:30
No, no, no. But I think it's just him seeing. It's basically the story that gets looped in his mind that is very.
00:52:38
It's just like the kind of lead where you go. It's possible. Yeah. Is because if she everybody knew that Spielberg was making a movie on a cape that summer.
00:52:47
Everyone nearby knew it. Yeah. And everybody knew that they needed people for crowd scenes.
00:52:51
Like that was they said that that was the thing that like went all around everywhere.
00:52:55
So so it wasn't like if it was like, OK, we live here, but up in Bakersfield, they're making a movie.
00:53:01
And we might be able to be in it. Let's drive up there like and maybe let's hitchhike up there because it's 1974.
00:53:07
And maybe I'm rich and I live in this town with my parents, but I want to go up there and take my gold fillings up and fucking have a weekend.
00:53:16
Well, that makes sense. And then it makes sense, too, if whoever she is, her parents had passed away and she was just like on her own because someone would have connected her with a missing person by now.
00:53:28
You know what I mean? Yes. So that makes me think that, like, there weren't a lot of people who knew her or she was escaping a fucking, you know, a mess and no one reported her missing because they didn't think she was.
00:53:40
They thought she just fucking skipped town. Now, this is making me think of the teacher's pet podcast where a woman who had tons of family, friends, a brother who was a cop.
00:53:51
Yeah. And the exact same fucking thing happened because it was back in the day and people kept going.
00:53:57
I thought they were going to take care of it. I thought the police were taking care of it.
00:54:00
And if you have one person giving a cover story, she's not here because she went to Europe.
00:54:05
Yeah. She finally wants to be a painter. She joined a cult or something. She told us to say, fuck you.
00:54:10
And everyone goes, oh, that's awful. Yeah. And then this is what actually ended up happening.
00:54:15
That's a good point. I mean, it's just something. But I think it's kind of an interesting thing that they shot that scene in July of 1974.
00:54:25
Yeah. And her body is found at the end of July of 1974. Wait, okay. I don't think I realized it was that close.
00:54:32
Yes. And they've never been able to fucking find if this extra woman was like, oh, no, that was me.
00:54:37
I'm alive. What's up? No, because the casting director, and I don't know if it's the casting director of Jaws or if they had hired an extra as casting director.
00:54:45
Yeah. Could be a different person. But whoever that person would be that would have known any names or I guess.
00:54:52
I mean, how would you know? You don't get names, names. You get release forms. Yeah.
00:54:55
I've been an extra and they give zero to none shit about you. Yeah. But even that person died in 2009.
00:55:02
Yeah. So any, they can't figure out the way to trace hundreds of people that way.
00:55:07
Dude. hundreds of potentially locals. Yeah. And it like a thing that a ton of people did Oh my God But he still goes in and pulls the thing and talks about his theory and brings it to the police And they like we heard this theory Yes You know
00:55:22
like, thank you. And there, he said they're receptive, but it didn't, it didn't thrill them.
00:55:28
It wasn't something they hadn't heard before. And no link is found. But here is the quote from Joe Hill in the Washington,
00:55:37
in the Washington Post article that I liked. Two astonishing things happened on Cape Cod.
00:55:42
in the summer of 1974. One is that Steven Spielberg filmed Jaws, and the other is that someone murdered this woman
00:55:48
in the dunes outside Provincetown and got away with it. Anything that stirs people's memories
00:55:53
could potentially be productive. And this is still an unsolved cold case. And Joe Hill now has a podcast called Inside Jaws.
00:56:03
And that's how this story, I think, got brought to light. Wow. Is because he loves that movie so much.
00:56:10
and then the thing I will say now at the very end because in every article it's what they start with
00:56:16
but Joe Hill is his pen name and he actually is Stephen King's son oh my god yeah and that's the lady of the dunes
00:56:29
dude the cold case that everyone's still working on and hopefully will get solved
00:56:36
someday soon Stephen solve it that's bananas I know, right? Oh, my God. God. I know.
00:56:45
What if it gets solved soon? Also, let's just... I love that movie, Jaws, so much.
00:56:49
Yeah, it's the best. It's truly a perfect movie. Yeah, it is. It's a perfectly, perfectly done movie.
00:56:55
And the idea that it was Steven Spielberg's, like, basically, like, aside from Duel, it was his first big, like, blockbuster is crazy.
00:57:04
And that now it could be possibly tied to a fucking cold case murder of a woman.
00:57:10
That's like, that's the creepiest thing I've ever heard. It's so, you know what it's like?
00:57:14
It's like the guy in The Exorcist that was the x-ray technician that was a serial killer.
00:57:17
It's that thing. I love that so much where there are some things, you know, it's not common at all that it's a movie.
00:57:24
But there are things where like people get captured on film. And back then it did happen sometimes.
00:57:31
It's much more common today. But like back then it happened. But it's just also those weird backstories of like, in like The Wizard of Oz, you can see the legs of someone who hanged themselves from a tree or like, in Three Men and a Baby.
00:57:44
You know that was a stork, right? Yeah, I know. That was, yeah. And then the Three Men and a Baby, you can see a ghost in the background from a person who killed themselves, which is like, none of it's true.
00:57:52
It's all explained away, but it just like adds this level of like, like, this like lore to this, you know.
00:58:00
And it's just as fun, at least for me, obviously, the way I just said that to you, because it clearly it's the third grade episode.
00:58:09
At least for smart people like me. At least for people that read half an article like me.
00:58:15
But it's just as fun to get caught up in the in the lore. Yeah. And then debunk the lore.
00:58:20
Yeah. You get to be all the people. You get to be the innocent. Because there's no answer.
00:58:24
And then, yeah. And then you get to read the article that says that was actually a cardboard cutout of a little boy that they hid behind the curtain thinking, get rid of this.
00:58:33
And then everybody thinks it's a ghost. Yeah. Which is just as fun as there's a ghost to me.
00:58:39
Totally. Because what if we're all wrong? Yeah. And we are. And what if cardboard cutouts are ghosts?
00:58:46
What if ghosts are cardboard cutouts? What? Yeah. Every time it just somebody floating a cardboard cutout by you Ghosts with a cardboard cutout Paranormal cardboard cutout experiences My new series Someone please make our new series
00:59:01
I'm EP. That's right. We just think of an idea and I'm like, well, did you hear about my new series?
00:59:06
Someone please make. Of your idea. Yeah. Someone please make the fucking logo up on the, you know.
00:59:14
It's already done. I know. I know. It's Wednesday night and by tomorrow morning it's done.
00:59:19
again thank you fruity troll roll for being a part of our lives oh that was that was a wild ride i i
00:59:26
i mean i feel like this could have also been it was a shorty for me but this could have been 12
00:59:33
pages long with all of the players so much to learn and grow from and the who truly who is the
00:59:41
next eight episodes are going to be based off of this story who is hadden clark whitey bulger
00:59:46
Whitey Bulger. Bulger is that like cracked wheat that they serve. Bulger. Whitey Bulger.
00:59:53
Bulger like Ray Bulger, who played the scarecrow in The Wizard of Oz. Wow. What a great story.
01:00:02
Sad, but fascinating. Thank you everyone so much for listening. We appreciate all your support and love over the years.
01:00:11
As always, you can catch me here every week. And also, if you want to hear me talk about cats with my friend Sarah, you can always listen to the Perkast, part of the Exactly Right Family.
01:00:20
Again, thank you so much for listening. Stay sexy and don't get murdered. Goodbye.
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