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00:01:45
And welcome to My Favorite Murder. That's Georgia Hardstart. Thank you. That's Karen Kilgareff.
00:01:50
You're welcome. This is a podcast. And here you are. We are going to tell you true crime stories.
00:01:58
Yep. That's our interest. That's ours. We're also going to tell you about our other interests, which is our own lives.
00:02:04
And ourselves. And ourselves. And you will be a part of it also. Peripherally. Quietly.
00:02:12
I mean, feel free to talk out loud. We can't hear you. You absolutely should. Yeah.
00:02:16
Especially if you're on a bus or a train. Yep. Or at the gym. Are people going to the gym these days?
00:02:22
Perhaps those roofless gyms. that they like to do in the Midwest. You know, I think some people call them parks.
00:02:32
You just have to bring a hot dish to the gym. Ew, what if you had to be on a treadmill eating a hot dish at the same time?
00:02:39
Just some nice old grout and potatoes while you do 45 tight minutes at a 4.3. Get that heart rate up.
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I'm going to get my heart rate up. I need to get my heart rate up. What are other ways to get our heart rates up?
00:02:55
besides getting on a treadmill uh sex take that out I don't want to talk about sex
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no girl now you have to watch our numbers shoot through the sky talk about it right in my brain go there automatically
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do it let's talk about you and me let's talk about you and me that's right it's my favorite
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sexual position Ew. Gross. That's disgusting. No one wants to hear it. Look, listen, there's a whole podcast
00:03:32
app filled with those. You can go elsewhere. Definitely have fun. Don't go. I mean,
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stick around for a minute. Please. We have great sexy stuff to talk about. It's just not
00:03:43
intercourse related. It's not. And it's also not that sexy. So those are your interests.
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we got them if you like the push and pull of non-sexy uh bummer shit hello and welcome maybe
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that's sexy on its own and it's not what are we talking about i don't know we're just trying we're
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trying to improv and go with the theme my dog won't stop licking the couch it's true it's his
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nervous kind of you know he gets nervous too yeah he listens to these intros and goes i don't know
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what you're doing, but will we be able to pay the rent next month? Frank, you're fine. This can't last.
00:04:20
This can't last. Mom is going to lose the house. I don't know. I have to go back to eating out of
00:04:25
the garbage. I just don't want to live outside anymore. No, so I don't know how to handle this.
00:04:31
So I just lick. That's all I can control. I just lick surfaces. Look, we've all been there, Frank.
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It's not like we don't understand. Frank is accepting the things he cannot change. He has
00:04:41
the courage to change the things he can, which is the dampness of your couch. And the wisdom to
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Lick the difference. There he is. That's our boy. Good boy, Frank. You're fine. George is slowly and politely picking up everything and getting it away from him.
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I am. He just keeps coming closer and closer to me. Yeah. It's kind of like his job.
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I don't know. Good for him. I don't know. Somehow this is our job, kind of. I mean, can you believe?
00:05:08
Can you believe that on this podcast, one of the things I wrote down, it just says air fryer.
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because that's kind of all I want to talk about these days. Did you get one? I got an air fryer.
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Okay. Tell me all about it. Do you have one? No. Life changing. Why? Well, it's just really cool.
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It's not really life changing, but it's great. It's just so, it's fun. You got to get one.
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What do you air fry? I air fry anything frozen you buy at like Trader Joe's or whatever.
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You air fry it and it's 10 times better. Or like if you want to make like Brussels sprouts, it makes them 10 times.
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I sound like an infomercial. I like it though. Sell me. It's the best. And then you can make like meatloaf in it and like fried chicken in it and like all kinds of things in it.
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I feel so. This was basically the trend thing after Instapots, right? Like this was because it healthy I late into the game OK Yes All right Yes But now I found it and I love it And it my new hobby I having a recovered memory that our friend Dave Holmes and not not to be side pluggy
00:06:07
Right. But the host of Waiting for Impact just premiered on our newest original limited series.
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He once told me all about it and was giving me recipes and so excited about his air fryer.
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That's my late night scroll now is what can I cook in the air fryer? And I'm waiting for like the next, like you can cook hard boiled eggs without being boiled.
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I guess you could take that word out of there. But in the air fryer in like eight minutes with no fuss.
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Are they crispy? No, they're just like perfectly cooked. Okay. It's not frying it for you.
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It's almost like a toaster oven. Oh, okay. You know what I mean? It's not like oil or anything like that.
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Okay. Because I was like, I love fried things. So this sounds great. No, like today I ate like frozen taquitos and frozen spanakopita in the air fryer.
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And they're like crispy and brown. And like, you know, like if you cook them in the microwave, they're chewy.
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Yes. You're never going to cook them in the oven because if you want a snack, you're not going to cook frozen food in the oven.
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That's going to take fucking forever. Yeah, it's 25 minutes men's. Yeah. So this is my new hobby.
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God, that's, well, it sounds really good. My thing is, because I don't cook, because it's been 50 years, it always snakes up on me.
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Like dinner is a surprise every night. Every night around 630, I'm like, what's this weird feeling?
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Am I going to start crying? Oh, it's dinner time. I'm the same way with breakfast where it's like, why am I going to faint at noon every day?
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Yeah. Because you started with coffee and then you forgot to. And I kept going with coffee.
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Yeah. It's very strange. So I want to be I want to fold some new like gadget in that somehow is going to, quote unquote, make it easier or better.
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Here you go. Do you think that's it, though? Because I just think I'm not going to use it.
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You probably won't. But it's cute. So you can just have it on the counter anyway.
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It's not like it's a burden. Wouldn't this be compelling if this was on QVC of like, you probably won't use this.
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But imagine when your friends see it on your counter. Mine is seafoam color. Shocking.
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Of course it is. So I don't care if I use it or not. It's a cute seafoam appliance.
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Seafoam is my color for everything. Is that why you bought it? No, I bought, I went to buy one.
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Then I was like, holy crap, they have seafoam. So of course I'm going to get it.
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Your whole life is seafoam. Seafoam, color my life seafoam and call me happy or something.
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What is your, what would you say your number one favorite thing is fried hard boiled eggs?
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I haven't done that yet. I think, oh, breaded fried ravioli. Oh shit. And then you dip that motherfucker in some fucking pasta sauce.
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And this is healthy. I mean, it's as healthy as toasted fried ravioli is. No, it's not.
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It doesn't make it healthier. OK. It doesn't make anything healthier. That's not the point.
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It's just a different way of cooking. Right. So you could make frozen fries in the air fryer.
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It's not going to make those fries healthier. OK. Than if you put them in the oven.
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Got it. I think. It's just easier, quicker, like smaller, faster. Got it. Crispier.
00:09:09
Crispier for sure. Oh, that's good. I'm going to get you one. Okay. Expect one. Someone's got a Christmas coming up.
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Ow. Just hit my face on the microphone. And that's good podcasting. And that is fun podcasting.
00:09:23
Those sex podcasts won't be hitting their... You think they talk about air fryers on sex podcasts?
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No. You think they're supposed to talk about them on murder podcasts? Probably not.
00:09:34
I don't think so. Actually, compared to other. Here's what I would like to say. We talked extensively about being sent a box of books from a bookstore where they were clearing out their true crime section.
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And a listener was like, I thought you should have these. And who would appreciate them more?
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We both did appreciate them, but we didn't save the box or the letter, of course, because we've only been doing this for five years.
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How would we know to do anything like that? Well, lucky for you and me. I mean, yeah.
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I don't like I basically put the garbage around the corner. Oh, and so anytime I get stuff from Amazon, I'm like, I'm just going to bring this down, put it by the garbage cans and I'll break it down later.
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What's what we do? OK, good. I do it all the time. And then one day I go down with it with a box cutter and just go to town.
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Fucking have that moment of take your aggression. Yes. Well, I was doing that and I found the box.
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Yes. I found it. And I'm so this is a guess, but I think I'm 95 percent right that we got sent those books from Jessica Webb from North Carolina.
00:10:45
There she is. It was just sitting there taped to the front of a box and it was to Karen in Georgia.
00:10:50
And then it said from Jessica Webb. And I thought that is the loving bookstore employee who sent us those wonderful true crime books.
00:10:58
Right now I'm reading a Ted Bundy book that I've never read before that is so detailed and so good.
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Wow. I'll talk about it when I'm done. I'm like halfway through. That's so surprising because you like that's one of those cases where you think, you know, every single fucking thing about it.
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Yeah. And then you read another account and you're like, oh, I only know Ann Rule's account.
00:11:17
Yes. So Ann Rule's in there. These are the guys that interviewed him once he was in jail.
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Oh. Oh, so at first I was I was reading it thinking I'm going to stop reading this because it's going to be too Ted Bundy centered.
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And I don't give a shit what he thinks about his murders or like who cares. But it's not like that.
00:11:36
Is it like a study of a sociopath kind of a thing or psychopath? I guess. Well, it's just this story kind of really detailed so far.
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I'm only I just began, but it's it really is just like almost like month by month how it all went down.
00:11:52
And just the way like the different things that went on like you know and I want to say it lake sammamish yes yes yes is how it pronounced where he where he kidnapped the two young women yes two women in one
00:12:06
day which is insane but it was so crowded there there was an undercover narc there that day
00:12:11
but that person was looking for people selling drugs right so they they actually did have
00:12:17
like an official eyewitness on the ground. How insane is it that he kidnapped one woman, drove away with her, came back.
00:12:25
So the theory is that something happened and it didn't go the way he wanted it to go.
00:12:29
So he wasn't satisfied. Came back and same day. I mean, it's just. He was berserking.
00:12:38
Yeah. He was in a full monster mode and like just a predator. and he had no question that he would get away with it in his mind.
00:12:48
No, because he had been getting away with it. And also he was dressed like he was like a tennis coach.
00:12:54
That's the creepiest thing is like, can you help me with my boat? My arm is broken.
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My arm is broken. Can you help me with my boat? And I'm kind of like, I might be a rich guy.
00:13:03
Yeah. And I'm really charming. Yeah. All the eyewitness women were just like, yeah, you'd never, he was really nice.
00:13:10
He was very good looking. Yeah. He just thought he was some nice guy. Well, when you're done, when you need a break from that, I have a movie to suggest.
00:13:16
Like when you're like, holy shit, I need to put this down for a minute. Oh, to counter?
00:13:21
Yes. Let's hear it. Okay. So my nephew, Micah, he's 11, came over the other day.
00:13:25
We ate Carl's Jr. Watched Tommy Boy, of course, because you have to. Of course. And then we watched this movie that he's like, put this on.
00:13:33
I love it. It's called Hunt for the Wilder People. Do you know it? It's the New Zealand guys.
00:13:40
Take a Watiti. Yes. From 2016. And of course, and it's Sam starring Sam Neill. And then the kid who's in it, it's like this 13 year old kid is in foster care.
00:13:49
He goes to live with Sam Neill and his wife. And the kid is named Julian Dennison.
00:13:55
And they kind of like they go live and get stranded in the New Zealand wilderness.
00:14:00
And there's like a manhunt to find them because they think the kid got kidnapped.
00:14:03
But really, he's like, they're having the most fun and bonding. And there's like, it's the fucking sweetest, cutest, like feel goodiest movie.
00:14:14
Oh, my God. I love Micah's movie corner. That's a great idea. Like, yes, I want to know what an 11 year old likes.
00:14:20
Well, the problem here is that he likes horror movies normally. And so we put on Friday the 13th for three minutes where I said, Micah, I can't fucking watch this with you.
00:14:31
So then he was like, all right, I'll downshift into ant mode. Tommy boy. Yes. He definitely downshifted for me.
00:14:39
He watched Squid Games. He watched fucking everything. Like all those. He's just in it all.
00:14:46
Yeah. My brother is like a grown child. So. Yeah. You know. Well, but that's good, though.
00:14:52
That means he has taste and there's a true range. Yeah. He's into video games and stuff like that.
00:14:57
Yeah. So I guess horror movies are his new jam. Of course. I think that. But look, what age were you when you started reading Stephen King?
00:15:05
Totally. you would have you would have been doing the same things that modern day kids are doing well we did
00:15:11
watch all of those it was just somehow okay back then but now we're a little wiser as to things
00:15:15
that terrify children and so we're not supposed to be watching fucking nightmare on elm street and
00:15:19
all that right but at the same time you know he's like this is an la kid so he's like they shot that
00:15:24
down the street you know right right or he's like this is all he says like they're so campy because
00:15:30
they're from the eight he likes 80s ones because they look so stupid so he's not watching saw or
00:15:35
anything like that yeah he's aware of how fake it is that's good yeah yeah there's a little distance
00:15:40
but then he likes a nice jump scare every once in a while sure but he's not allowed to listen to
00:15:43
this podcast he can listen in the beginning his mom lets him listen to the beginning he's like
00:15:47
this is the boring part i don't want to hear about air fryers yeah he's seriously like why why in the
00:15:53
world yeah why in the world oh that's awesome i love that i'm trying to think of what i've been
00:15:58
watching. A Finnish procedural, I believe it was called Arctic Circle. And it literally takes place
00:16:05
in Lapland, which my friend, the hilarious comedian Lynn Shawcroft, who herself is from Canada,
00:16:11
that used to be a reference she would make sometimes, but it was the way she said it with
00:16:15
her Canadian expert. If somebody had like a really big, weird sweater on, because in LA, there's
00:16:21
almost no reason to ever wear a sweater unless it's like deep January. She'd be like,
00:16:26
oh I like your sweater are you from Lapland that sounds so far away and like it's truly it's like
00:16:34
where reindeer are from they it's where they say where Santa Claus is from oh I didn't know that
00:16:39
yeah Lapland your friend Santa way up there yeah Arctic Circle I believe it's called oh
00:16:45
there's something about those foreign procedurals they truly just they soothe my soul they do it's
00:16:52
like a big cup of cocoa for your soul. I think I also tell myself like I'm learning about Finland
00:16:58
if I watch it. Definitely. Let's say that. Or Lapland. Lapland. Lapland. You know, Lapland
00:17:05
where sweaters come from. Here's another great Lynn Shawcroft quote. We got out of a car one time.
00:17:11
We were headed to our friend's party and the party was taking place on the front patio. Maybe I told
00:17:16
do this already and right as we were getting out like we parked on the on the cul-de-sac and so
00:17:23
we're walking up to the party but we can hear it all and so it's like you can hear everybody talking
00:17:27
and then someone laughs it's this super obnoxious laugh and she turns to me and goes i didn't know
00:17:33
there'd be a toucan at this party and that is exactly what it sounded like it's like
00:17:38
it was so fucking hilarious that reminds me of bojack horseman because in that scene it would
00:17:44
have been a two-cam. Yes, exactly. It really was like some obnoxious hipster two-cam.
00:17:50
Speaking of TV shows you watching a bunch of people commented that when you were talking about Working Moms and I was like yeah I totally watched it It wasn It was from Australia called The Letdown that I watched and it really good
00:18:04
You did a little combo? Yeah. It's like, I just think moms with new babies and how hard it is.
00:18:10
They're both about how hard it is to be a new mom with a baby. Yes. And so the one I watched was just from a different place.
00:18:17
The Letdown. The Letdown. It's charming as fuck. I loved it. Oh, okay. I have to watch it.
00:18:21
That's it. Okay. That's like an accidental recommendation. Yeah. Love it. Okay. Want to do a quick, exactly right, media network highlight?
00:18:29
Yes. Stocks and bonds. How we're doing on the... Let's tell everyone what stocks and bonds to buy.
00:18:36
This week on Parent Footprint with my cousin, Dr. Dan. I have to mention that every time because I just love it.
00:18:43
Credit. That's right. So he has guest Jane Allen on and she's the author of the novel Black Girls Must Die Exhausted.
00:18:51
She's this incredible entrepreneur. She's a Harvard-trained attorney. She's an engineer, also dabbles in stand-up comedy.
00:18:57
She's just this incredible woman. She does it all. So he interviews her. I definitely check out Parent Footprint.
00:19:03
Just all the back episodes are incredible. He's a very talented man and a real doctor.
00:19:08
Yeah. An actual doctor. That's right. This week on Do You Need a Ride? with Chris Fairbanks and Karen Kilgariff,
00:19:14
we have the great comedian and also entrepreneur Dave Ross. And he had a bit of cold or a fever, which was kind of hilarious.
00:19:27
And it ended in one of the funniest slash dumbest things we've ever done on that podcast, which is he started making us fake logos for the podcast on a like a college mascot generator.
00:19:41
Yeah. And it was really hilarious. It went on for 11 minutes. We had to cut it down to two minutes because there's fever dream.
00:19:48
It was all visual. It was us laughing at dumb shit and then trying to describe it while we laugh.
00:19:53
I bet it was so stupid. I bet it was hilarious because you got the three of you guys are such fucking great comedians.
00:19:58
Dave Ross is so funny. He's the funniest. It was. It's very fun. I mean, like it just, you know, it was a real good time.
00:20:05
You guys have fun on that podcast. You know what I like to do sometimes? What? Riff and have fun.
00:20:11
Oh, I you've turned me into a toucan. Was it a toucan? Yeah. There you go. And then on the podcast True Beauty Brooklyn, they have guest Sally Olivia Kim, who's the founder of Crushed Tonic.
00:20:23
So make sure there's so many good episodes of True Beauty Brooklyn. Yeah. It's a great podcast.
00:20:28
That podcast is doing a bunch of stuff because everybody thinks it's a beauty podcast.
00:20:32
Right. But it is so much more than that. I definitely just go check it out and see.
00:20:38
They're having very cool, important conversations over there. Definitely. Definitely.
00:20:42
And then also be sure to follow Exactly Right on Instagram, Twitter and Facebook for updates on all of our shows.
00:20:49
You know, sometimes you just need an update. You want to know what's going on. Sure.
00:20:53
Be kept in the loop. Maybe we'll talk about air fryers on Instagram one day. So you don't want to miss that.
00:20:58
So make sure you follow Exactly Right. You have to be updated on all of the different trinkets.
00:21:04
That's right. And different kind of it's it's kind of a Bed Bath & Beyond podcast deep down.
00:21:10
It's become that stay for the other podcasts. Come for the bed bath recap. That's us.
00:21:18
Man, I love a bed bath and beyond, don't you? Here's the thing. I really do. And I don't need almost anything in that store.
00:21:26
Nothing. But especially if I get to the like the the the bath toiletry area where they have like hot combs and stuff where I'm like, I have to get that.
00:21:37
What if it's the best? What if it changes my life? What if this is the thing that makes my hair work?
00:21:41
Like my thing is the fucking end caps of seen on TV where I'm like, I've never seen on that on TV, but I need it now.
00:21:50
Yes. That's where you get like it's a light up mirror. Right. That has then different shades of light based on different cities around the world or whatever.
00:21:59
And tells you what time they're they're at right now. So just so you have it in your head.
00:22:04
Here's what your pores look like at three thirty in Paris. Enjoy. um okay what else do you have i think it's time to go let's do it you want to end the podcast now
00:22:16
we're on a high note bye is it you it is i'm first all right fine and it's a bit long that's why i'm
00:22:24
i'm saying maybe we should get right to it you know i have nothing else to talk about unless you
00:22:28
want me to make some shit up okay yeah i i mean uh i've been like going to dinner here and there
00:22:34
at places that have patios been to the movie theater which is still weird when you have to
00:22:39
wear your mask the whole time. Should you go to the loungy one where you can order like a cheese plate
00:22:43
and shit? No. No. Gotta. I like to go to the Grove. Oh. Because I like to pretend the Grove is actually
00:22:51
a little town. Oh, it is so cute though. That's just overly populated. It's very dense. Yeah.
00:22:57
And like a little annoying. Like everyone in the town needs to take pictures in front of a fountain.
00:23:03
No one in the town walks over to my, I don't know how slow walking is. It's really
00:23:08
slow. Everyone walks slow. Slow. And there's a trolley. And watch out for that trolley.
00:23:14
The trolley could kill you. The trolley could absolutely kill you. Or at least give you a nice
00:23:17
lawsuit settlement. Got it. Now I'm starting to think about, remember when you did the,
00:23:22
you covered all the weird, creepy things that have happened in Disneyland? Yes. Like what,
00:23:26
what weird, creepy things have happened in the Grove and they won't talk about it. Cover up.
00:23:31
It goes off. Do they have their own, like, uh, jail? Yeah. Yeah. For shoplifters, right? For
00:23:38
shoplifters? Shoplifters are people that get drunk at that one restaurant and they
00:23:42
fall out into the street and then start trying to punch other dads or whatever. Early afternoon chardonnays and then they're
00:23:48
fucking fighting. I bet intense shit. I want to list the most intense shit that's happened at the
00:23:54
Grove. Or... Or if you're listening now and you've seen intense shit that's happened at your fancy outdoor mall in your hometown.
00:24:02
We all have them. Or nearby. Let's hear about it. Definitely tell us those stories.
00:24:06
My favorite murder at Gmail. Like, yeah, if you like if someone ran out of a shop and then somebody from a different shop wrestled them to the ground.
00:24:15
Yeah, which you're not supposed to do. But really, you're not supposed to. There like became a law where you're if you work at a store, you're not supposed to chase or like stop a shoplifter unless it's like for them to be like.
00:24:26
Your shoplift didn't come back in, but they can't touch them. Really? They'll let it go.
00:24:29
Yeah, because there were lawsuits, I think, of like someone got tackled or whatever.
00:24:34
For a $35 shirt. Yeah. And then they sued the shit out of the fucking company. Oh, man.
00:24:39
That doesn't seem right. Or like the security guard got shot or like the employee got shot because they were trying to stop a robbery.
00:24:46
Oh, right. And they were like, yeah, by any means necessary. Right. That makes sense.
00:24:49
You're not allowed to do that. Yeah. Don't put it all on the line for J.Crew. No.
00:24:55
I mean, or even a bank. They're insured. Like, just hand the money over. They're all insured.
00:25:00
Don't be a hero. Ready? Yeah. Are we done? What were you saying about not knowing what to talk about? Well, we just did it.
00:25:07
We did. We always do. While the world watches the stars at the FIFA World Cup this summer, Hyundai has its eyes on the next generation of talent.
00:25:16
The future soccer stars who are already turning heads at age 14. Making plays that end up on everyone's feed.
00:25:22
Scoring from angles that don't make sense. rewriting record books that barely had time to gather dust.
00:25:27
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10% off your first purchase of a website or domain. Goodbye. This week, I am covering
00:27:11
one of the most kind of elaborate and confusing and ultimately i pre-warn you very unsatisfying
00:27:22
of unsolved murders these are the murders of ronda renee johnson and sharon shaw okay so
00:27:30
the sources for the story um unsolved mysteries uh season five episode 24 that's on amazon prime
00:27:39
If you want to watch it, there's a book by an author named Jamie Foster called Murder in Texas, the true story of Rhonda Johnson and Sharon Shaw.
00:27:48
There's an article from the Houston Chronicle by a writer named Lise Olson or Lisa L.I.S.E. titled Some Suspect Serial Killer in 1971 Galveston Deaths.
00:28:00
There's Self versus State Court of Appeals case brief. Jay went into the case briefs.
00:28:06
Yeah. And then the Wikipedia page murders of Rhonda Johnson and Sharon Shaw. Lees Olsen also wrote an article for the Houston Chronicle Confessions of a Cold-Blooded Killer.
00:28:17
And there's an Unsolved Mysteries wiki with no author listed, but it talks about the case of Rhonda Johnson and Sharon Shaw.
00:28:25
OK, so this story begins in Webster, Texas, on August 4th, 1971. So two friends, 15 year old Sharon Shaw and 14 year old Rhonda, although she liked to be called Renee Johnson.
00:28:38
They decide to spend the day water skiing at Wicks Water Ski School on Offitz Bayou in Galveston, which is 20 miles south of Webster.
00:28:48
So they hitch a ride with one of Sharon's neighbors and they go down to Galveston.
00:28:54
But when they get there, the wind is too rough to actually go water skiing. so they end up spending the day at the beach instead and when they get to the beach they run
00:29:03
into their friend glenda willis and she offers to give him a ride back home but sharon and renee
00:29:08
aren't ready to leave they want to stay at the beach a little longer so they say no and glenda
00:29:13
leaves without them i hate those moments in these stories there were such babies too babies 14 and 15
00:29:20
yeah it's very sad so later that evening between eight and nine o'clock sharon and renee are
00:29:26
spotted by eyewitnesses walking to the Jericho Surf and Ski Shop that's on Seawall Boulevard.
00:29:32
And that is the last time that they're seen alive. So that evening, when neither girls return home,
00:29:38
their parents promptly call the police and report them missing. Both Sharon and Renee,
00:29:44
they're known as being adventurous, they're tomboy types. And their friend Glenda remembers
00:29:49
them as being totally fearless Actually Glenda and some other friends think maybe Sharon and Renee have run away to California But since Renee is the granddaughter of a prominent local
00:30:01
city councilman in Webster, who actually will later go on to become the mayor, the search for
00:30:07
the girls is made very high priority. But even with that special attention, there's no sign of
00:30:14
Renee or Sharon. They can't find any clues at all. So then about five months later on January 3rd,
00:30:20
1972, two boys are boating in Taylor Bayou, which is north of Clear Lake, which is just east of
00:30:27
Webster. And they spot something strange in the water. They go over to check it out. They think
00:30:33
it might be a volleyball, but it's actually a human skull. Yeah. So the boys contact the police.
00:30:39
The police start searching the area and this search ends up lasting for six weeks because it's all by you and marshland.
00:30:48
You know, around this lake, they finally find the rest of this body that belongs to the skull in a marsh by the lake.
00:30:56
And then a second body is recovered as well. They're both significantly decayed.
00:31:01
decayed, but with the help of dental records and a recognizable cross necklace wrapped around
00:31:06
one of the victim's jaw bones, the bodies are finally identified as Sharon Shaw and
00:31:11
Renee Johnson. So I'll tell you a little bit about them. There's their school pictures from the 70s.
00:31:18
So they have very, very 70s like hair, but you can tell they're beachy. You can tell they're surf girls, water skiing girls.
00:31:28
Sharon Shaw was born August 11, 1957, in Mobile, Alabama. She's the daughter of Hoyt and Marianne Shaw.
00:31:36
This family makes their way to Webster, Texas when Sharon's little. And later, she then meets her friend, Rhonda Renee Johnson.
00:31:44
So Renee Johnson, she was born in Houston on December 16, 1956, to Charles Sr. and Betty Johnson.
00:31:51
And her grandfather is the well-known Webster City Councilman, who will later become the mayor.
00:31:57
And the girls are known to be bright. And as their friend Glenda said, fearless. They love to hang out by the beach and on Texas's southeastern shores. And they often hitchhike their way around the area, which is, of course, it's early 70s. So it's very common around that.
00:32:15
Plus when you're 13 and 14 and 14 and 15 and fearless, I mean, like I would have hitchhiked.
00:32:21
We used to take the bus half an hour to Newport Beach, which was pretty fucking shady at the time.
00:32:26
Yeah. We would hitchhike home. Some hot like surfer dude was like, do you want to ride home?
00:32:32
Yeah. Sure. Yeah, of course. And also I think it's at that time where it's like, yeah, if you are see yourself as a surfer girl or that, you know, you're in this you're in this certain clique.
00:32:43
Yeah. Then it's super worth it to leave your little Texas town to get to the beach, to get to that area and hang out.
00:32:50
And apparently in that area where this water ski school was, it was that's what everyone around there was doing.
00:32:57
It was very 70s. And so in May of 1972, the Webster City Council hires a new police chief named Don Morris and a new assistant chief named Tommy Deal.
00:33:10
So both Morris and Deal come over from the traffic division of the Texas Department of Public Safety, and they both get right into the investigation of Sharon and Renee's case.
00:33:19
Within the first three weeks of taking their new jobs, Morris and Deal get a tip on a suspect from a city councilman named Glenn Price.
00:33:26
He tells them to check out the area's known sex offenders list, and he specifically pinpoints one man by name, 23-year-old Michael Lloyd Self.
00:33:37
So Michael Self is a gas station attendant in Webster. He's recently been arrested on two different peeping Tom incidents, but has since been released.
00:33:46
And he's known to have a very low IQ. So around five in the morning on June 9th, 1972, Tommy Deal and another police officer named Herman Morgan pay Michael Self a visit at the gas station where he's wrapping up his night shift.
00:34:01
And they pull up to the pump that Michael Self is working at, and they say that they know he's been, quote unquote, thinking about two girls.
00:34:10
So Michael Self has recently gotten a divorce and and then begun dating a new woman.
00:34:16
So he assumes that these officers are talking about his ex and his new girlfriend.
00:34:20
So he confirms that, yes, he has indeed been thinking about two girls, not understanding that they are referring to Sharon Shaw and Renee Johnson.
00:34:29
What a weird way to open that line of questioning up. Yes. And I think it kind of does indicate how much any average person I think would just be like, sorry, I don't know what you're talking about.
00:34:40
But he assumes and maybe also because it's a small town, but he just assumes that they all understand.
00:34:46
It's like, oh, you do know what I'm thinking. Yeah, because you have a low IQ, so you don't you can't reason that.
00:34:51
Right. OK, so officers deal in Morgan say they'd like to speak with Michael Self further.
00:34:56
So self willingly goes with the officers to the police station for questioning. Once he gets there, they show him pictures of Sharon and Renee and they ask if he knows them.
00:35:06
And he says, yes, he does know them and he names them. They arrest him on the spot and they pull him into an interrogation room for questioning.
00:35:15
So Officer Deal and the other officer ask Michael if he murdered Sharon and Renee.
00:35:21
But Michael swears up and down that he has had nothing to do with their deaths. deal bluffs and says that they have evidence connecting michael self to the murder but michael
00:35:31
maintains that he did not kill the girls during questioning officer jerry mitchell stops by
00:35:36
to observe he knows michael self from around town and he notes that even though michael's hands are
00:35:42
handcuffed behind his back he seems relaxed he's not nervous he's answering all of deal's questions
00:35:48
and then after officer mitchell steps out chief of police this new chief of police Don Morris shows up He asks Deal to leave so that he can continue questioning Michael on his own
00:36:01
So so he does. And so then Don Morris starts asking self about the murders. But this time, and this is all according to Michael self after the fact, when he again says he doesn't know anything about the murders,
00:36:13
Morris picks him up pushes him against the wall and then starts shoving a nightstick into his
00:36:19
stomach over and over and saying he wants a confession and he isn't going to leave
00:36:23
Michael alone until he gets one yeah so Michael starts crying Morris puts him back in his seat
00:36:30
and then Chief Morris takes out a gun opens the chamber removes five of the bullets
00:36:36
leaves the sixth bullet in stands each bullet up on the table in front of Michael
00:36:42
And then with the one bullet left in the chamber, closes the chamber and points the gun at Michael.
00:36:48
Oh, my God. And he threatens him with playing a game of Russian roulette. So Morris tells Mike that if he doesn't sign a confession, he'll shoot him.
00:36:58
Yeah. And so, of course, Michael's self-terrified. He agrees and he starts writing exactly what Chief Morris tells him to write.
00:37:05
Right. So after half a page of writing, Morris makes him start over and rewrite the confession saying something isn't right.
00:37:13
So at this point, Officer Mitchell returns to the interrogation room. He's been gone less than an hour, but he now notices a complete change in Michael's self.
00:37:21
He sees that he's a nervous wreck and that Morris has had him rewrite this confession several times, which strikes him as odd.
00:37:30
By the end of the whole ordeal, Michael Self has written a detailed confession stating that he picked Renee and Sharon up from Sharon's house and that once in the car, he describes giving them beer, offering them weed.
00:37:44
He says they take the beer, but decline the weed and they drink while he drives them around the Clear Lake area.
00:37:50
And then he goes on to write that both girls were, quote, feeling good and getting loud, hanging out of his car window and hollering as he drove them to Clear Lake.
00:38:00
and at the lake he describes having a moment alone with Renee and trying to assault her.
00:38:05
She shuts that down. He's angered by the rejection. This is according to his first
00:38:10
statement. So he punches Renee in the head. That's when Sharon runs over. So he hits her too. Then he
00:38:17
says he strangles both girls and dumps them somewhere in El Lago. So Michael signs this
00:38:23
confession and is promptly taken into custody. There's even despite all those rewrites though,
00:38:29
there's still key inconsistencies with this confession. First, there are no signs of
00:38:34
strangulation on either of the remains that had been found. That was ruled out as a possible cause
00:38:39
of death. Secondly, Sharon's mom says that Michael Self definitely did not pick the girls up from
00:38:45
her home. They had hitched a ride with a neighbor. So she knew who the girls rode into Galveston with
00:38:52
that day. And then third, the place where he says he dumped the bodies is 20 miles away from where
00:38:57
the bodies were actually found. But at this point, Morris says he has his man and Michael
00:39:04
Self is taken to jail. So three days after this interrogation on June 12th, 1972, against
00:39:10
the advice of his attorney, he agrees to take a lie detector test. It's 1972. I mean, this
00:39:17
is, you know, but that lawyer knew. He knew for him not to do it. So the test administrator
00:39:23
asks Michael if he did indeed kill Renee and Sharon. Michael says, yes, that his confession
00:39:28
is true, but the test records this as being a lie. Then they ask Michael about more murders
00:39:35
that took place in the same area between 1971 and 1972. He claims to have information about
00:39:41
those murders as well, but the lie detector test reveals that this too is false. So even though
00:39:47
this test points towards Michael's innocence, he's so afraid of Don Morris that he agrees to
00:39:53
sign a second confession. In this second confession, he says he was driving when he saw Rhonda
00:39:59
walking down the road, so he picked her up, then he drove her to Nassau Bay Yacht Club. Rhonda hopped
00:40:05
out, came back with Sharon, both girls got in the car. So this directly conflicts with this first confession
00:40:11
and basically the one that Sharon's mother contradicted. So now it's like they're updating it.
00:40:19
Also in the first confession, he describes punching the girls before strangling them.
00:40:24
But in the second, he says he hit Sharon with a Coke bottle and then dumped their bodies
00:40:28
in Taylor Bayou. So it changes the location completely of where he even dumps. Yes.
00:40:34
So instead of where it was before, which was essentially kind of like a culvert.
00:40:38
Yeah. Now it's where it's near where they were found, where their remains were found.
00:40:42
So these revised statements are more in line with the facts of the case, but there's still
00:40:47
more inconsistencies that don't add up. Michael goes on to say in his second confession that he stripped the girls clothing off of them and threw their clothes on the side of the highway.
00:40:57
But both girls bodies were found with clothing on. Still, the confession is accepted.
00:41:02
Michael Self remains behind bars and he's awaiting trial. Then on June 23, 1972, about two weeks after his arrest, two Harris County Sheriff's deputies, Deputy Sheriff Frank Beamer and Deputy Sheriff W.A. Turner, check Michael Self out of jail saying they're going to go buy him a hamburger.
00:41:21
and they do but then afterwards they drive him to the each of the various locations that he
00:41:27
mentioned in his confession and they take pictures of him standing in those spots
00:41:32
and this time michael self directs them to a sizzler saying that's where he originally picked
00:41:38
the girls up so the chief of police in cleveland texas which is a nearby town this guy's name is
00:41:45
Dave Coburn he visits Michael Self in jail And Michael Self tells Chief Coburn he didn murder anybody and goes on to describe the interrogation the Russian roulette all the threats and how scared he is of Morris
00:42:00
And the thing is that chief Coburn had actually seen Morris play that same Russian roulette game
00:42:06
with a different prisoner, the same way Michael self is describing. So Coburn's a hundred percent
00:42:12
certain that Morris coerced Michael into this false confession. And he tells Michael Self,
00:42:18
I will attest to this in court. So Michael Self's murder trial begins on May 15th, 1973.
00:42:25
Prosecutors rely heavily on this second written confession to make their case. Because the girl's
00:42:31
remains are too decomposed to determine the exact cause of death. There's no physical evidence
00:42:36
besides Michael's confession and its alignments with the condition of the girl's remains.
00:42:42
The photos the deputy sheriffs Frank Beamer and W.A. Turner took of Michael Self on this kind of location tour are also presented in court as a third oral confession.
00:42:54
Like he took them to those places when really they took him. Yeah, like it was his idea.
00:42:58
So Beamer and Turner tell the court Michael was recounting his every move from the night of the murders as they stopped at each location.
00:43:05
This account of Self's third oral confession is entered into court without objection.
00:43:13
So things look very bad for Michael Self. But Police Chief Coburn is prepared to testify that he witnessed Chief Don Morris pull the Russian roulette stunt on another prisoner in 1971, which would be huge for the defense.
00:43:26
Coburn is never called to the stand. What? So on September 18th, 1974, the jury finds Michael Lloyd Self guilty of the murder of Sharon Shaw in the first degree.
00:43:37
He's sentenced to life in prison. So after this ruling, Michael Self's lawyer immediately files an appeal.
00:43:46
He argues, the defense attorney argues that this supposed third confession entered at trial should be inadmissible because they illegally removed him from jail.
00:43:57
But because Michael willingly agreed to go on that little tour and because his third confession was entered with no objection from the defense at the time of trial, the judge maintains that this third confession is admissible.
00:44:12
And the court argues that all they need to rule Michael guilty are the properly ID'd remains of the girls and the proof that the victim died by criminal means.
00:44:23
The court says that because Michael Self's confession aligns with the conditions in which Sharon Shaw's body was found, that's enough to rule her dead by criminal means, even if they don't know the precise cause of death.
00:44:36
So on October 9th, 1974, Michael Self's appeal is officially denied and the ruling of his trial stands.
00:44:43
stands. Okay. Then on September 17th, 1976, three years after Michael Self's trial began,
00:44:52
something happens in the quiet Texas town of Caddo Mills that on its face seems entirely
00:44:58
unrelated. And so this information is from an article from the New York Times, but it's also
00:45:06
from a 2019 article in the Greenville Herald Banner, where a local named Joe Johnson, who is,
00:45:14
I believe, in his early 80s, retells this story by his own firsthand account. He was there the day
00:45:21
he saw this happen to the Rotary Club in Greenville. So a reporter went down and wrote a
00:45:28
story about the story that Joe tells. And it's pretty great. Okay, here we go. So it's mid-morning
00:45:34
in Caddo Mills, this little Texas town, a man named Jerry Woods is walking out of the bank.
00:45:42
And when he walks out, he sees two guys walking in and he noticed they're both wearing surgical
00:45:47
gloves. And Jerry thinks to himself, this can't be good. I made that up. Of course he did. Sure.
00:45:55
So he stops and watches as they enter the bank and put on ski masks. Oh dear. so he knows this is a robbery obviously so he runs across the street and to find the mayor bobby
00:46:08
chapman and says hey the bank's getting held up we were just talking about bank robbery that's
00:46:14
weird well that is weird small town bank robbery small town bank robbery where it's all like
00:46:19
well you see the bank robbery starting so you turn and go who do you want to get to the mayor's right
00:46:24
there. Right. So he grabs the mayor, Bobby Chapman. And so once he tells the mayor that they all head
00:46:32
down to Larry Bost's barbershop because they know Larry has a rifle. Let's go get the town rifle.
00:46:39
Let's go get a rifle. Wow. So when the bank robbers come out of the bank, they see Larry,
00:46:44
the barber standing there aiming at them with his 30-06. And then Jerry Woods, who went and got his
00:46:51
gun out of his truck and he's so basically they're facing one direction and larry the barber is has
00:46:58
his rifle up and then they turn and look and jerry woods is aiming from the other direction
00:47:02
so the two robbers one back inside the bank they grab the bank receptionist and they take her with
00:47:09
them but what they don't know is that the bank receptionist also happens to be the bank president's
00:47:16
daughter, 19-year-old Sherry Johnson. Oh, no. So they take her hostage. They shove her into this stolen green mercury that they drove there, and they head out of
00:47:27
town. And as they head out, Larry the barber shoots out the front right tire. So they're still going, but their car's pretty screwed up.
00:47:37
Yeah. The robbers return fire and shoot out the barbershop window as they speed out of town.
00:47:42
Man. now at this point in the article I was reading Joe who's telling the story also says hey this was a long
00:47:50
time ago so this might not I'll be completely accurate, which I absolutely love.
00:47:55
Yeah. Because that gets reported in the article. He's like, here's how I remember it.
00:47:59
Here's how I remember it. That don't mean shit. So Larry the barber and Bobby the mayor jump into the mayor's car and they take off after
00:48:07
these robbers. Right. And because it's the 70s back then, everyone has CB radios.
00:48:12
Oh, yeah. So there's a CB in the mayor's car and everybody's on their CBs. So the mayor gets on on the CB, spreads the word to be on the lookout for a green mercury with a flat front tire.
00:48:24
And they're most likely headed toward the interstate. So he basically is through the CB.
00:48:31
The whole town gets this posse up of all. And also there's a bunch of citizens that were either in the bank or nearby who have now gone like, what the hell is going on?
00:48:41
So they basically everyone in town jumps into their trucks and cars with their rifles because it's Texas.
00:48:49
It's fucking Texas. It's Texas. They all have their guns with them and on their person.
00:48:53
And they start all trying to find these bank robbers. I just wonder if this poor receptionist would have a better chance of survival if they weren't following them.
00:49:03
Well, here's what's good. The answer is no, because at one point they she later would tell Joe,
00:49:10
They start fighting about what they're supposed to do with her now that there's witnesses and now all this.
00:49:15
And they end up throwing her out of the car along with one of the pistols that they used in this bank robbery.
00:49:21
And yeah. So. All right. Good. So even though the pressure was on and that could have gone wrong.
00:49:27
Yes. It helped her in that regard. Great. So. They basically pull the car over near an abandoned building.
00:49:35
At one point, they tried to carjack a guy in a Mustang and it says unsuccessfully.
00:49:40
which to me means the guy in the Mustang's like, hold on, let me just grab my rifle.
00:49:45
Like, like they could they couldn't win in this town. No, they couldn't. And they end up running across a field with their bag of money.
00:49:54
And all the citizens chase them down in this field, get them and hold them at gunpoint until Sheriff Wayne Green arrives and arrests them.
00:50:03
And it's at this point that everyone learns the identity of these two bank robbers.
00:50:08
Webster Assistant Police Chief Tommy Deal Dallas County Deputy Sheriff George P. Marshall
00:50:16
and the accomplice getaway driver is Webster Police Chief Don Morris Damn! The Russian roulette man
00:50:23
Damn! Yeah So it turns out that Don Morris and Tommy Deal are part of a bank robbing gang
00:50:33
who have been sticking up small town banks around Texas since 1972. Holy shit. Both men are found guilty in this bank robbery.
00:50:43
Don Morris is sentenced to 55 years in prison. Tommy Deal gets 30 years. They're both eventually paroled.
00:50:50
Tommy Deal ends up going back to robbing banks and he winds up in federal prison.
00:50:54
He loved that hobby of his. He loved it. He was into it. So after these arrests,
00:51:00
Michael Self's attorney, Jerry Bernberg, he petitions the court to get Michael a new trial,
00:51:05
obviously. Um, because saying, obviously, if the cops who interrogated self were proven to be corrupt, then maybe Michael self has a real shot at getting his case reexamined.
00:51:16
Yeah. They have an evidentiary hearing and that goes well. Things are starting to luck up.
00:51:22
And then nine days before oral arguments, Michael Self gets another lucky break.
00:51:29
A man who still remains unidentified walks into the police station in Taylor Lake, Texas, and confesses to killing Sharon and Renee.
00:51:39
This man's account of what happened is vague and disjointed, but he mentions one key element that the public had no knowledge of and was never made available.
00:51:49
Yeah. He tells police that he tied Sharon and Renee up with black cord, which was found on the remains when they were recovered.
00:52:00
It's then discovered that this man lives in the same apartment complex as I believe it's as Renee.
00:52:07
And he knows both girls. Oh, so if he would pull over, they wouldn't be like, yeah, I'll take a ride.
00:52:12
I know this guy. It's a neighbor. Totally. Yeah. There's just one problem. This man reportedly suffers from psychosis.
00:52:20
The officers, as well as the prosecution, say that this the man is not sane and therefore his confession is unreliable and there isn't enough evidence to charge him.
00:52:31
So he's never charged. The appeal is denied. And Michael Self's conviction is upheld once again.
00:52:37
Well, on September 22nd, 1992, Michael tries to make one last appeal for retrial on the grounds that his confession had been coerced.
00:52:46
But the court denies it in 93. They say they don't have any evidence of coercion and that Michael willingly went to the police station, made his statement, and they shut the argument down again. After several failed attempts and the court denying him parole, Michael Self is later diagnosed with cancer and he dies behind bars the year 2000 at the age of 53.
00:53:08
so they're those and they're some of them are family members of the murdered girls who believe
00:53:16
that michael self was guilty and that justice was served but for those who believe that michael
00:53:21
self's confessions were coerced they're left wondering if the real killer is still out there
00:53:27
and then another possible suspect emerges in august of 2015 this is a man at the time he is 72
00:53:36
years old and his name is Edward Harold Bell Yikes So Harold Bell was arrested in 1978 for murdering a 26 year old Marine named Larry Dickens who had tried to stop Bell from masturbating in front of a group of teenage girls in Pasadena Texas
00:53:58
Oh, my God. It's such a hideous, crazy story. Yeah. So Harold Bell is sentenced to 70 years in prison for this murder.
00:54:09
Yeah. In jail, Harold admits to the authorities that he murdered 11 girls prior to his final arrest.
00:54:17
And he refers to these victims as the 11 who went to heaven. Oh. In 1998, he writes letters to authorities confessing to seven of these 11 murders.
00:54:27
And in them, he mentioned Sharon Shaw and Renee Johnson by their names. Wow. And yet somehow these letters are kept secret until 2015.
00:54:37
authorities assert that there wasn't enough evidence aside from the these letters of
00:54:44
confession to charge bell with any of the murders back in 1998 and that's why no one talked about
00:54:50
these letters but once the news breaks that they exist in 2015 they take a closer look
00:54:56
so here's basically the rundown okay starting in 1966 harold bell is arrested multiple times for
00:55:03
sex offenses, usually for masturbating in front of young girls. And he is sent to several different psychiatric hospitals over the next four years.
00:55:13
In 1970, he seduces and marries a fellow mental patient who is only 17 years old.
00:55:20
And upon his release, Belle and this girl, who is now his wife, move into an apartment
00:55:26
along Offit's Bayou, which is near where that water ski school is. Yeah. Bell becomes a silent partner in the local surf shop where all the water skiers and surf kits hang out.
00:55:40
After he's arrested for shooting Larry Dickens in 1978, Harold Bell jumps bail and goes on the run in Mexico and Central America for the next 14 years.
00:55:52
Holy shit. So he's Texas most wanted criminal throughout the 80s, and he's finally captured in Panama in 1992.
00:56:01
So when his confessional letters about these crimes he committed in the 70s begin to arrive in 1998, authorities dismiss them as the rantings of an attention seeking sex offender who's trying to get time knocked off his murder sentence.
00:56:16
But by the time they're looked at again in 2015, there's so little evidence and eyewitnesses left, including some of the letters themselves that go missing, that it's decided that there's nothing to build a case on.
00:56:32
And on April 20th, 2019, Harold Bell dies in prison without ever being charged for any of the 11 murders that he confessed to in detail.
00:56:42
I wonder if his DNA is ever put in CODIS because that's a long time to have been out doing fucking terrible things, most likely.
00:56:54
Yeah. Yeah. And this was a this was a very shocking, like, kind of detail, because in 1981, Brazoria County Sheriff Lieutenant Matt Wingo, he starts counting how many young women have been murdered in this area between 1971 and 1981.
00:57:17
21 young girls were shot and their bodies were dumped into the nearby marshes and bayous between 1971 and 1981.
00:57:29
10 years and 21 young women. What the fuck? How did nobody fucking pinpoint that pattern?
00:57:39
Well, because it's like they were doing it backwards. They were saying, here's the guy we're going to get. And now this is solved. And it's just that thing of we talk about police corruption. We talk about people having confessions coerced. And what the thing that seems to get lost in that conversation is meanwhile, 14 and 15 year old girls are being plucked off of the street by some guy that no one fucking suspects or no one's doing anything about.
00:58:12
And those serial killers are allowed to continue killing at will while they're locking up people whose IQ isn't high enough for them to keep themselves out of jail.
00:58:26
So the convenient person is locked away and and everyone believes that things have been taken care of.
00:58:33
And then a string of unsolved murders and, you know, and maybe they're runaways or maybe they're kids that hang out at the beach.
00:58:42
Or maybe there are people that don't have city councilmen who are grandfathers to advocate for.
00:58:48
And so they just their their bodies aren't found or their bodies aren't looked for.
00:58:54
Right. Right. So they're killer. You know, they're forgotten. They're forgotten victims or they're, quote, throwaway victims. And yeah. And which in the like in the 70s. I mean, that kind of defined that era. Totally. So as unsatisfying as it is and as infuriating and frustrating as it is, that's the tragic story of the murders of Sharon Shaw and Rhonda Renee Johnson.
00:59:19
Wow. What a fucking mystery. Like, we'll never know. And there's no DNA that you can test, right? Because they've been in the water so long, probably.
00:59:29
Right. I mean, and who would do it? The crooked cops that are fucking holding up who are bank robbers?
00:59:37
That such a bananas twist I can That why I was trying to read that really fast because I was like this is a 12 pager and I do apologize No you did great It crazy and it like It riveting I wish there was just a system and maybe with DNA and with the kind of like technology that coming out it getting a little bit less like the human error element getting removed
01:00:07
Yeah, you got to hope. I don't know. You hope. As long as humans are involved, there's going to be human error.
01:00:12
Yeah, true. A lot of it. Well, great job. That was fascinating and awful. And you did a good job. Thank you.
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01:02:41
this actually weirdly has some similarities to your case in it so i'm sure hannah our wonderful
01:02:51
producer put these together on purpose we've all heard the words karen you have the right to remain
01:02:56
silent anything you say canon will be used against you in a court of law blah blah blah blah blah
01:03:00
we've heard it in many movies and tv shows it's like the corny line that ends the fucking scene
01:03:07
in law and order. There are rights. There are rights. There are rights. Yeah. So you heard
01:03:12
them and maybe some people listening have heard them in real life, which, you know, hey, life
01:03:16
happens. But many people don't know that the history of the saying actually comes from a
01:03:20
specific case of a possibly coerced confession. And the answer to this lies in the U.S. Supreme
01:03:27
Court's landmark ruling on Miranda versus Arizona. It's right. Today, I'm going to tell you the
01:03:32
history of the Miranda rights. Nice. Okay. The sources I use today are an AP staff article,
01:03:39
an article written by Ron Dugan for The Republic, the Lewis and Roca law firm, the impact of Miranda revisited by Richard A. Leo, and the National Constitution Center website.
01:03:53
So prior to the Miranda versus Arizona ruling, suspects did have a right to remain silent
01:03:59
and the right to an attorney, thanks to the Fifth and Sixth Amendments, but that wasn't often relayed before interrogation.
01:04:07
At the time, police procedures when getting a suspect to confess often implemented really aggressive tactics, the third degree,
01:04:14
that sort of thing, as we just heard in your story, and relied on manipulation, strong-arming the suspects,
01:04:21
and it often led to false confessions and many subsequent wrongfully convicted people.
01:04:28
One example is the case of Brown v. Mississippi. On March 30, 1934, a man named Raymond Stewart, who was a white farmer, was murdered in Kemper County, Mississippi.
01:04:42
Three black tenant farmers, Arthur Ellington, Ed Brown, and Henry Shields, were arrested for his murder and subsequently confessed.
01:04:50
At trial, that confession was the prosecution's only evidence to the three men's guilt.
01:04:55
But the defense didn't deny that three men had confessed, but that they did so only after being subjected to brutal beatings by the officers.
01:05:05
Quote, the defendants were made to strip and they were laid over chairs and their backs were cut to pieces with a leather strap with buckles on it.
01:05:12
And they were likewise made to understand that the whippings would be continued unless and until they confessed.
01:05:19
So one defendant also been strung up by his neck from a tree in addition to the whippings.
01:05:24
The defendants were convicted by a jury based on their coerced confessions and sentenced to be hanged.
01:05:30
But later, the court revised the conviction, saying that when a confession is extracted by police violence, it cannot be entered as evidence.
01:05:39
Ultimately the three defendants pleaded nolo contendere to manslaughter rather than risk retrial And they were sentenced to six months two and one half years and seven and one half years in prison respectively Yeah
01:05:54
So despite there being no other evidence against them. So police officers didn't have to make sure the suspects knew about or understood their Fifth and Sixth Amendment rights,
01:06:03
but just had to make sure any confessions were made, quote, voluntarily. And that's what Phoenix police allegedly thought they were getting on March 13th, 1963, when they got a confession out of Ernesto Miranda.
01:06:17
So in March 1963, an 18 year old woman who was referred to by the pseudonym Patricia Weir is kidnapped, bound and raped in Phoenix, Arizona.
01:06:27
She goes to the police and tells them that the perpetrator's car is green or gray with dark striped upholstery inside and that the car smelled of turpentine, which is such a creepy, awful detail.
01:06:41
Yeah. Around a week later, a family member of Patricia sees a car that matches the description of the perpetrator's car.
01:06:48
He writes down part of the license plate and the family member then goes to the detective in charge, Carol Cooley, and gives him the partial license plate number and tells him he thinks the car is a 1953 Packard.
01:07:01
So Cooley runs the partial in the system and finds around a thousand or something license plates in Arizona.
01:07:08
But then there is one car that's a 1953 Packard. So he looks up the owner's name and finds that it's Ernesto Miranda.
01:07:17
Cooley notices Ernesto has a criminal history, including robbery and attempted rape.
01:07:22
And Cooley thinks Ernesto seems like a solid suspect for the kidnapping and rape of Patricia.
01:07:27
23-year-old Ernesto, who was born in Mesa in 1941 and had only an eighth grade education,
01:07:33
has a long criminal history. So I'm just going to do a quick summary of it. So like part of the story is that this isn't a great guy, and he actually might have been
01:07:42
guilty of this. He has a long criminal history. He was arrested for his first felony when he was in
01:07:47
eighth grade. A few months later, Ernesto was arrested for burglary and sent to a school for
01:07:52
delinquent children. Two months after he left school, he was charged with attempted rape and
01:07:56
assault. When he got out of prison, he continued getting charged with crimes like peeping, armed
01:08:02
robbery, and stealing cars. He was in and out of prison. But in March 1963, he was free and was
01:08:08
living with his girlfriend. So Ernesto wasn't the best guy that ever lived, but that doesn't mean
01:08:14
he didn't have rights. So on March 13th, Cooley goes to Ernesto and his girlfriend's house. She
01:08:20
opens the door holding their baby. There are other kids around her. And so Cooley asks for Ernesto.
01:08:26
He comes out of the bedroom, had just woken up, and he says, Cooley tells him he doesn't want to
01:08:31
talk to him in front of his family. Will he come down to the police station? Ernesto agrees. He's
01:08:37
not handcuffed because he isn't under arrest and he's not told he has the right to remain silent
01:08:41
or to an attorney because he's it isn't the law at the time. Once they're at the station,
01:08:46
a sergeant tells Cooley that there is an unsolved robbery where the suspect also matches Ernesto's
01:08:51
description. And so the sergeant tells Cooley to talk to Ernesto about the robbery in addition to
01:08:56
the rape of Patricia. So Patricia's brought in to view a lineup and so is the unsolved robbery
01:09:02
victim and a woman named Barbara McDaniel. And both women view the lineup and pick Ernesto out.
01:09:08
I think it was only four men. They say he, quote, looks like the perpetrator, not that he is for
01:09:13
sure the guy, which I guess from what I read is pretty typical with suspect lineups. When the
01:09:18
lineup is done, Ernesto asked how he did and Cooley says he was picked out by both victims.
01:09:25
Cooley asks Ernesto to write out a confession for both crimes. So in the 1960s, typical
01:09:30
interrogation tactics included isolating the accused in a cell in solitary confinement.
01:09:36
They also would shine bright lights in their face for hours and then deprive them, you know,
01:09:44
contact with a lawyer or any family members. And so although he was only questioned for two hours,
01:09:50
and some say Ernesto may have been harassed into his confession, although Cooley calls total
01:09:55
bullshit on that. He does write out his own confession. At the top of each page, there's a
01:10:00
printed certification that he signs. It reads, quote, this statement is voluntary and of my own
01:10:05
free will with no threats, coercion or promises of unity. And with full knowledge of my legal rights,
01:10:11
understanding any statement I make may be used against me, which is like, kid had a great education. So he may not have understood that at all.
01:10:19
also uh i can't tell you how many things i sign without reading the small the fine print everything
01:10:26
but i feel like if we were in a police station oh the pressure and like you know that he wasn't by
01:10:32
himself like they didn't say take your time and really go over that right like there was probably
01:10:36
someone standing right behind him or you know what i mean it's just like sign here sign here
01:10:41
and you don't even get to read it which is why like that's what a lawyer is for is they actually
01:10:45
understand all that stuff, which is why it's so important, even if you are innocent, to have a
01:10:49
lawyer there because you still have to sign shit to get out of there. Yes. You know? Yeah. You need
01:10:55
someone familiar with the documents. With the law. Yeah. Yeah. With your rights. With your rights.
01:11:01
But maybe you don't have any because it's the 60s. But the statement isn't exactly true because
01:11:06
Ernesto hasn't been informed of his right to remain silent or to have an attorney present.
01:11:10
So Ernesto later said he was told the robbery charges would be dropped if he confessed to the kidnapping charge.
01:11:16
And that's why he confessed. So it almost seems like from what I've read, there's no part of him saying, wait, I didn't do it.
01:11:24
You know, maybe I was kind of bargaining. Yeah. So maybe he was guilty and he was bargaining, you know, which some maybe a defense attorney would have done.
01:11:32
But I'm not I can't say for certain that he was guilty, but nothing in the stuff I've read says that he tried to convince anyone he wasn't.
01:11:41
I mean, I kind of I like the point you're making, though, which is the aim is not perfection, right?
01:11:47
Because that's. It's not you don't have to earn your rights. You get them automatically.
01:11:52
Right. Right. But when he's arraigned, Ernesto finds out the robbery charge hasn't been dropped.
01:11:58
He asked for an attorney multiple times and doesn't get one for two weeks. When it comes time for Ernesto to face a trial for the kidnapping and rape of Patricia, Ernesto's attorney objects to Ernesto's written confession being entered into evidence.
01:12:11
The attorney says that the Supreme Court has previously ruled that a suspect is entitled to an attorney during interrogation.
01:12:16
The judge overrules the objection. Conversion is entered into evidence and Ernesto Miranda is found guilty of rape and kidnapping and a sentence to 20 to 30 years for each conviction.
01:12:27
So Ernesto appeals to the Arizona Supreme Court, but they affirm his sentence. And then in June of 1965, Ernesto requests that the U.S. Supreme Court review his case.
01:12:38
The ACLU finds out about it and asks multiple attorneys from the Lewis and Roca law firm in Phoenix to represent him pro bono.
01:12:45
And Phoenix lawyers John P. Frank and John J. Flynn agree to take the case, arguing that Miranda's confession was obtained using intolerable and unlawful interrogation techniques.
01:12:57
And they agree to write a petition to the Supreme Court, arguing that his Fifth Amendment's rights were violated.
01:13:03
Supreme Court, I guess, has a few of these, a lot of these cases, and they decide to address four cases involving these rights at once and then by consolidating them into one ruling.
01:13:17
So in each case, the defendant was questioned by police in, quote, a room in which he was cut off from the outside world.
01:13:24
The defendants were never given, quote, full and effective warning of their rights or the interrogation.
01:13:29
And the questioning led to signed statements that were admitted at trial. so Ernesto is one of four cases selected for review the others are Roy Stewart Michael Vignera
01:13:39
and Carl Westover and you don't recognize any of those names and the reason we hear it as the
01:13:46
Miranda rights is because his last name was first alphabetically like that's fucking it so it could
01:13:52
have been the Westover rights yeah or the fucking Stewart rights which is like what the fuck I don't
01:13:59
There's such a weird little detail about it. So on June 13th, 1966, in a five to four decision, the Supreme Court overturns all of their convictions.
01:14:09
The other ones are all kind of for robberies and that sort of thing. The court rules that no confession is admissible in court if a suspect was not made clear of their rights before the interrogation began.
01:14:19
The suspect has to be clearly informed of their right to remain silent and that anything they say will be used against them in court.
01:14:25
and that they have the right to an attorney if they can't afford one an attorney will be appointed to them.
01:14:31
You know, those things. That's right. The things we always hear. The court's ruling is controversial.
01:14:37
It opposed by of course the police who are like how are we going to get a confession if we can strong arm them Prosecutors the media politicians they call for Chief Justice Earl Warren impeachment who was in charge of the Supreme Court decision
01:14:51
Police officers believe they will not be able to get a confession once if they know their rights.
01:14:56
Yeah. Which is like, well, that's the fucking point of this whole entire thing. The ruling completely changes how law enforcement goes about obtaining confessions and like just landmark case.
01:15:08
Following the Supreme Court's decision, the police departments create Miranda warning cards.
01:15:12
So they give all the officers these cards to carry around with them. And the words contain the now famous Miranda rights.
01:15:19
In February 1967, Ernesto Miranda is retried for the rape and kidnapping charges.
01:15:24
This time, his signed confession is not entered into evidence, but he's still found guilty and sentenced to 20 years for each conviction.
01:15:32
So, yeah. Ernesto Miranda is paroled in December 1972. So, so much for those 20 to fucking 30 years.
01:15:40
Right. But on the outside, he's famous. In prison, he was famous. Like one time they said something about in the news that someone was read their Miranda rights and everyone in the cell block cheered.
01:15:52
So on the outside, he's famous. He autographs Miranda warning cards for $1.50 each.
01:15:59
Almost immediately after being released on parole, he violates his parole, sent back to prison, released again in December 1975.
01:16:06
On January 31st, 1976, Ernesto's involved in a bar fight in Phoenix at this dive bar called La Ampalo after a card game goes wrong.
01:16:17
You know, that sort of thing. A man named Ezequiel Moreno Perez ends up stabbing Ernesto multiple times.
01:16:25
And by the time the paramedics arrive, 34-year-old Ernesto Miranda is dead. Whoa.
01:16:30
Yeah. Police find Moreno at a nearby motel. Read him his Miranda rights. Oh, ironically, ironically.
01:16:38
But they don't take him into custody. He flees. He's never found. Whoa. I know. And today, the Miranda rights are one of the most recognizable and influential legal decisions in modern policing.
01:16:51
And that is the story of Ernesto Miranda and the Miranda rights. You know, it blows my mind is because it feels like these days when things need to change or there's big kind of like overhaul type things.
01:17:07
We all and I mean, I'll just speak for myself. I'm always just like, they'll never do that.
01:17:11
That'll never happen. Right. Because nobody wants that point of time to be like, so now we've made it so that you have to read them their rights.
01:17:20
Now you have to do it. Yeah. especially to a group of people like the police. Yeah.
01:17:27
They're the ones who tell other people what to do. And suddenly they have people telling them.
01:17:34
And their argument is like we trying to keep these criminals off of your street so they won hurt you Like we trying to do the right thing in their minds of course you know Right That what they think And now you impeding that by putting these rules which is like well no fucking group can be unpoliced and keep people safe
01:17:53
It's like the point is public safety. And you can't do that by any means necessary or there's.
01:17:59
Because absolute power corrupts. Absolutely. And then suddenly you have the all I could think of as you were telling that story was that horrifying scene from L.A. Confidential where they have all those boys, that young black kids that get arrested.
01:18:15
Yeah. Because that that girl is raped. Right. And they find and they separate all of them and they do they do the third degree.
01:18:22
Yeah. And it is so disturbing and is so scary. Yeah. And of course it works. And they were innocent.
01:18:29
And there's case after case, especially of people of color who that third degree is used with that with impunity.
01:18:37
And there's so many false confessions because of it. And that and that means the person who actually committed the crime goes free.
01:18:44
Yes. And how is that keeping our streets safe and the public safe if that's what's happening?
01:18:49
Yeah. If you can just beat the shit out of someone and make them do what you want.
01:18:54
Yes. You're going to get this thing done in front of you right now. But ultimately, you're going to still have 21 teenage girls murdered between 1971 and 1981 in the Galveston area because you, quote unquote, took care of it.
01:19:11
Yeah, because you scared the ever loving shit out of a suspect with who didn't know any better, who had no representation.
01:19:19
You pointed a gun at their head. Yeah. I would confess to something if someone put a gun in my head.
01:19:25
Well, that's great. I'm that's fascinating information. And it's the kind of stuff like that.
01:19:30
I would have if you had asked me, I would have said, oh, yeah, I know. I know about that.
01:19:33
Yeah. And I know. I do. Interesting. Yeah. I just found out about it a couple of years ago.
01:19:38
And I was like, yeah, I guess that would make sense that the name Miranda isn't just a made
01:19:42
up word. Like, it's so much in our lexicon that we don't even consider the fact that it's actually
01:19:46
someone's name because of a court case. Yeah. Funny. Yeah. Nice one. Thank you. So thank you guys, as always and forever, for listening.
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