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00:01:33
Hello and welcome to My Favorite Murder Celebrity Hometowns. That's right. Segment.
00:01:49
Here it is. Portion. Of the show. A new thing we're doing. We thought it would be fun to gather up all of our most famous friends and have them tell us about the inciting incident that got them into true crime.
00:02:05
An interesting story from their life. Some kind of badass grandma that they might have in their background.
00:02:12
Anything. Anything. Hauntings. Hauntings are great. Did your brother almost try to kill you on accident when you were kids?
00:02:19
Is your grandma related to Al Capone? We've heard it all and we want to hear it all. That's what hometowns are all about these days.
00:02:27
And then what better than to get a hometown from a person that you've seen on TV,
00:02:32
you know them from social media, from podcasting, from everywhere you look, the one and only Mr. Paul Poles.
00:02:41
Paul Poles. Look at him. Hi, Paul. How's it going? It's been a long time. It has. How's your quarantine going?
00:02:50
You know, it's going good. In fact, the pandemic was my first break since I retired.
00:02:59
That's right. You retired and immediately started a brand new career in the media.
00:03:06
Yeah. Right. So, you know, I, you know, March of 2020, I came back from New York.
00:03:11
I was on Dr. Oz and the next day I had a fever and a sore throat. And I have a feeling that I
00:03:19
probably had COVID out of New York. Yeah. You know, and it lasted four days. It wasn't too bad.
00:03:26
And then from from then on, you know, my life slowed down, which was much needed. So, you know,
00:03:34
But unexpected and scary, but it's also like, wow, this is what it's like to actually retire.
00:03:41
To a point, yeah. But it was, in some ways, it's unfortunate it had to do because of the pandemic.
00:03:48
But then I moved out to Colorado, so I started enjoying Colorado things. Of course, everything was shut down here from restaurants and stuff, but I could still go out in the mountains.
00:03:58
I could still mountain bike. So that's what I did. That's great. That's awesome.
00:04:02
them. And Paul, I remember when you got that fever on your flight home because we were all
00:04:10
talking about, oh, we don't have to shut the offices down right now. We can still, and we
00:04:14
were kind of playing in that middle ground. And then Danielle called. She's like, Paul Holes
00:04:18
probably has it. We have to shut everything down and get it industrially cleaned. And it was,
00:04:22
that's when we got serious because we were like, whether Paul actually has it or he's just sick
00:04:28
from traveling, whatever this is, we now know that this is how close it could be, that we could get,
00:04:34
that everyone could give it to each other. Like it's serious business. Yeah. The exactly right
00:04:37
offices are no more because we don't need them. Yeah, exactly. Well, and that's, you know, that's
00:04:44
what's been surprising to me because I know going into this podcasting world, I was like, well, I
00:04:48
need to be in the room with the person I'm talking to. That's what I'm used to. And then we're forced
00:04:53
to do the online, but with, you know, like right now I can see you two, you know, I can see you're
00:04:58
looking how your body language is and, you know, that's what Billy and I do. And it worked and the
00:05:04
listeners didn't notice a difference. So it's something that, you know, makes life a little
00:05:08
bit easier versus me constantly traveling out to LA to record. That's true. And now we know in the
00:05:14
future, like it's not, it's so much better to be in person. Everyone knows that, but it's not
00:05:20
totally necessary that you have to upend your life every time you have to record an episode.
00:05:25
No, that's true. But I miss seeing you guys in person, and I think I'll be seeing you guys in
00:05:30
person pretty soon. I hope so. Yay. That's great. Murder Squad has just done so well from the get-go.
00:05:39
You guys are a hit podcast. I mean, we all knew that it would be when we asked you to do it,
00:05:44
but it's just so great to watch you guys grow because you really have been a juggernaut.
00:05:49
And I don think we even had that conversation with you ever of just like congratulations and thank you for making a hit show Well you know I think where the credit is deserved is with you guys You know you had the belief in us and your fan base in part was something that gave us an advantage
00:06:09
You know, so, yeah, I know, you know, I and Billy and I have talked. We understood that we had, you know, that type of opportunity.
00:06:19
and we really do owe you guys a lot for the success that we've had on our side. You're so modest.
00:06:27
You're very modest, Paul, especially when the hashtag hot for whole started and then went on for so long.
00:06:34
I think it's still alive to this day. It is. I mean, come on. You're like a member of New Kids on the Block and you know it.
00:06:41
And we weren't going to let that opportunity pass us by. Absolutely not. I blame you guys for that.
00:06:48
Are you kidding? We didn't start it. We didn't start the fire. We did not start that fire.
00:06:53
No, we didn't. We always burn it. Hey, I have a question. Did you write a book during the pandemic?
00:06:58
Like, was it thoroughly in or was it before you started it before? I started a book a couple of months after I retired, you know, and of course it was underway
00:07:09
during the course of as I was doing everything. And then the pandemic really allowed us to drill down and try to get it done.
00:07:16
And so now, for the most part, it's done, and you guys were the first ones to announce it.
00:07:22
Yes, we're so excited. Can't wait to read it. So it's coming out, is that right, April of 2022?
00:07:30
That's correct. It's available for pre-order right now. I'm excited. It's something where the author and the publisher really pushed me because it's, you know, I thought going into writing the book, all people wanted to hear about was the inside scoop of Golden State Killer.
00:07:46
And then they really said, no, people want to get to know who you are as well as, you know, your career.
00:07:53
So in many ways, this is my memoir. And in many ways, I've had to open up and divulge a lot of personal aspects of my life that, you know, it's very uncomfortable.
00:08:04
I'm a very private person. I'm naturally an introvert, you know, but also at the same time, it's important for people to see how working in this line of work,
00:08:15
and in particular the types of cases that I worked has impacted me on a personal level.
00:08:21
And that really fundamentally is one of the primary goals of this book, is for people to understand why I am me now.
00:08:33
So it was an interesting process. I just hope that people read it and understand when they read a lot of things about me.
00:08:43
We got it. Oh, boy. We get it. It's called Unmasked, My Life Solving America's Cold Cases. And please pre-order. That's
00:08:51
such an important thing for authors that I think a lot of people don't know is the pre-order is a
00:08:56
big deal. So do that. But it is so weird when they push you to write, like we wrote a memoir and we're
00:09:02
open books and we still had to be pushed to write personal things that we had no idea. So as someone
00:09:10
who's an introvert, I can't imagine how hard that was. Yeah, just consider the fact that all
00:09:15
of those secrets are now going into the Library of Congress and you're forever recorded everything
00:09:22
that you admitted. No worries, no biggie. No, no big deal. Recorded for life. Oh, you're making me feel so much better. That's our specialty.
00:09:32
Yeah. If we had to do it, you got to do it. That's our rule for our friends. Yes, exactly. I can't wait to read it, though. I think there's all those East Bay crimes that I know of growing up in the Bay Area. I just can't wait to get the inside scoop.
00:09:48
I talk about some of the cases I've been involved with, and I was in an unusual position to either have caught the cases from the get-go or insert myself in the slut cases.
00:10:00
And some of these cases are cases that the world knows about but doesn't know that I was involved behind the scenes.
00:10:09
And so there's going to be details in there about some of these things that nobody's ever heard.
00:10:14
And, you know, again, I'm just excited to be able to put this out there and hope people find it a compelling read.
00:10:21
So cool. Yes. Congratulations. Thank you. Thank you very much. It's a big deal to write a book.
00:10:25
It is. It's a big deal. You're an author. I never would have imagined I'd be here.
00:10:31
But, yes, you know, and I'm a podcaster. And you're a podcaster. You're a podcaster.
00:10:36
First and foremost. You're America's heartthrob. I mean, all of these things. Because you're a multi-hyphenate, is what they say.
00:10:47
I'm a retired county employee. That's what I am. To put it simply. Yes. This is Radhi Dvluka from A Really Good Cry.
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Hey everyone it Cal Penn I the host of Ear Say That code cry at G dot C really had to make a decision because I caught myself getting that frog in my throat and starting
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to get teary as I'm narrating some of these sections. And it's like, okay, yo, yo, yo,
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is this indulgent? And I really thought about it. I was like, no, at this point,
00:12:37
it would kind of be betraying the trust the author and the listener have in telling this story if I
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don't go through it. But there's places in this book that deeply emotionally affected me.
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And I left it on the mic. That's great. Because it served the story. People will say like,
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00:13:36
Well, speaking of all those cases, maybe let's pivot into your quote unquote hometown because hometown means so many things.
00:13:42
So maybe it's the case you remember from your childhood hometown that first piqued your interest or a case you worked on that maybe was the first case or the one that first stuck with you or made you realize the gravity of what you were doing.
00:13:56
Or maybe your grandma was a badass. You can tell us anything. Anything. Anything.
00:14:01
Oh, wow. You know, it's, well, it's wild because I, you know, I've been thinking about this a little bit and there's so many different ways that I could go.
00:14:09
I remember my dad was in the Air Force, and he was stationed at Hill Air Force Base.
00:14:15
And this is in that 1973, 1974 time frame. And I, as a young boy, would just go do what you did as a kid back in the early 70s.
00:14:26
You'd just go wander around, and your parents had no idea where you were at. Maybe a little smoking here and there, maybe some bike riding, some smoking.
00:14:35
Oh, yeah, at age four or five. Wait, you were just on your own at age four or five, just wandering the streets.
00:14:43
Yeah, chewing the Copenhagen, you know. Yes. No, but it's funny because I do remember I would slide underneath the chain link fence, you know, to go outside of the base.
00:14:56
And it was funny because I was collecting bottle caps for whatever reason, right?
00:15:01
I was looking for trash. But as a kid, you think this is the coolest thing. 70s.
00:15:07
Then as I got older, I realized that when I was out there by myself, that's when Ted Bundy was in the area.
00:15:14
So it was one of those things where you go, wow, what would have happened? Even though his predilection was for women, still a young boy may be somebody that a predator couldn't have passed up.
00:15:26
And I think back over my time for similar incidents, incidences in terms of, wow, that was really stupid.
00:15:33
but in terms of you know for me what really got me into my career it it wasn't any type of case
00:15:44
it was a tv show you know and and i know when when we did our show together up in sacramento when you
00:15:50
guys brought me on stage i talked about it a little bit in terms of quincy you know the the
00:15:57
medical examiner the pathologist and you know that show portrayed this pathologist quincy
00:16:02
Jack Klugman, who's not only doing the autopsies, but is doing the forensic work,
00:16:08
is investigating the cases. He really isn't a real person, but I was fascinated with it.
00:16:15
And then ultimately, when I went to college at UC Davis, I was pre-med because I wanted to become
00:16:23
a forensic pathologist. Oh, I love it. And I ended up, I took a human anatomy course,
00:16:31
which was taught out at the med school at UC Davis has an excellent med school. And so I got
00:16:36
access to the medical school's library and they had a, they had a shelf, maybe two shelves worth
00:16:41
of forensic pathology books. And this was really the first time that I was opening the pages and
00:16:47
seeing images of death in all its states. And that was shocking to the system, you know, for the,
00:16:54
the uninitiated to see, you know, what happens when somebody dies, uh, the decompositional
00:17:00
processes or, you know, vehicular accidents, which are horrific in terms of the injuries
00:17:06
or airplane crashes, you know, you start not only going, geez, this is gruesome, but it's
00:17:13
also that check on your own mortality, you know, as now I'm in my early 20s, I think
00:17:20
I was 20, 21. It really is that thought invoking aspect about what life is all about.
00:17:28
but I became fascinated with that but because I was more interested in playing guitar and girls
00:17:35
I did not I did not have the grades to go to med school again you were 2021 like what else would
00:17:44
you exactly doing you were gonna be a rock and roll doctor yeah you know when I was really at
00:17:52
that point okay med school was out and I was kind of struggling what I wanted to do you know I thought because my degree is in biochemistry that I would go into biotechnology which was brand new at the time And I actually interned at a biotech company in
00:18:06
Davis called Calgene. So I thought, well, this seems to be the direction I want to go,
00:18:11
but I don't know. And then I'm at a job fair at the UC Davis gym. It's a huge complex. And it was,
00:18:19
you know, like on the basketball floor, all sorts of booths are set up and a lot of biotech
00:18:24
companies were there. And I was standing in line to talk to some biotech company. And I look over
00:18:30
at this other booth and there was an old style TV, you know, the old, you know, CRT TVs, right?
00:18:35
Sitting up on, on one of those TV stands at this booth. And the image on the TV was a man
00:18:42
lying in a pool of blood in the middle of a kitchen. And I was immediately like, what's that?
00:18:49
excuse me excuse me i i get out of that line and i get over i go over there and there was a uh an
00:18:59
older gentleman uh victor reeves from the california criminalistics institute uh who was
00:19:05
basically recruiting for criminalistics which i had never heard of but he was saying yeah
00:19:12
criminalists are forensic scientists that work in the lab but we also go out to do crime scene
00:19:16
investigation and I was sold. So at that point, I was like, okay, this is what I want to do. And
00:19:23
I immediately went to the UC Davis job, kind of their career library and flipped through, you know,
00:19:31
recent job announcements and found a forensic toxicologist announcement for Contra Costa County
00:19:36
up in the Bay Area, California. And I applied. And that's literally how I got into at least the
00:19:44
beginning of my career. But as a forensic toxicologist, I'm doing drug analysis and
00:19:49
alcohol analysis, and I quickly became bored. And I don't do bored well at all. And there was a deputy sheriff criminalist position opening up after a few years on the job,
00:20:04
and they were the ones that got to go out to do the crime scenes and work the homicides. And I was
00:20:08
like, yeah, that's what I want to do. And from that point on, you know, I just kind of, I got
00:20:14
hired into that position. I got hooked into cold cases and serial predator stuff and did the deep
00:20:20
dive early in my career and then ended up working so many cases, you know, and it was fortunate,
00:20:27
you know, this is a busy area and a unique area. And so I was exposed to so much over the course
00:20:34
of my career. That's amazing. How did cold cases get solved back then? I know we didn't have genetic
00:20:40
genealogy, so it's just like gumshoe or a little bit of blood or... You know, when I first started,
00:20:47
DNA was pretty much brand new in crime labs. And there were some cold cases being solved,
00:20:54
but they were what you'd call the low-hanging fruit. It was the, you know, they had the obvious
00:20:59
physical evidence, the easy physical evidence to use. But as time went on, those dried up and
00:21:06
you didn't see a lot of cold cases being solved until DNA matured. But you still have the boots
00:21:15
on the ground investigation. I just know from my experience that you get so locked in on a suspect
00:21:23
because of circumstantial evidence. And just to see these suspects that you're convinced this is
00:21:28
the guy and then to watch the objective forensic science evidence eliminate that guy. If it's a
00:21:36
cold case for me, I really am much more comfortable seeing, you know, I want that objective evidence
00:21:44
to support my thoughts because I have been wrong, you know, and that's just that's the limitation
00:21:49
of that human thought process. You know, you think, oh, this can't be a coincidence. He's
00:21:54
got to be involved. And it turns out, oh, it was just a coincidence. Yeah. It's crazy how many
00:21:59
coincidences there are in those. It is. This is not possible, but. That's right. But it's possible.
00:22:05
Did you ever feel like you had to argue for when DNA was early on, but it was around? And did you
00:22:13
ever feel like you were the ambassador for that kind of testing or did everybody accept it as it
00:22:18
came? Was there pushback against it? What was that like? No, you know, DNA technology was very
00:22:25
well embraced within the forensic science community and within law enforcement. You know,
00:22:31
the pushback came, of course, by the defense, because it was new, and they wanted to fight it,
00:22:36
and it incriminated their defendant. So there, you know, that's where DNA really proved itself
00:22:42
was in the courts. Now, I know kind of the struggle that I had within my department is that
00:22:51
the resources just weren't there to work cold cases. The 1990s was very busy, a lot of gang
00:22:59
violence, a lot of drug violence, a lot of drug labs. I was out, all these beavis and butthead
00:23:05
cooks that were going on, the duffel bag filled with chemicals. So to try to find the time to work a case that was 20 years old was hard. And the reality is, is I was the
00:23:19
only one that consistently would do it. Every now and then, an investigator would come on board that
00:23:24
showed an interest and then that person would get reassigned. But for me, it became a passion.
00:23:29
And I just did it. My bosses often didn't know what I was up to. Maverick over here. Yes.
00:23:37
So, and it was just, well, that was Quincy. I was influenced by the TV show. Yeah. Quincy didn't, didn't wait for permission. He just went and did it.
00:23:47
You know, I, I talk to people and I say, you have to take risks. You know, if you want to make a difference, you got to take risks. Otherwise you're just going to be another cog in the, in the machinery of the agency you're working for.
00:24:00
I took the risks, and fortunately, I didn't get bit. And fortunately, my biggest risk was maintaining and persisting on Golden State Killer, and that worked out well.
00:24:12
We got a very, very bad guy off the streets. But that's kind of, I think, across the board.
00:24:20
That's the struggle that many agencies have is they don't have the resources to dig up these old cases.
00:24:26
So that's where you get into the arguments of – and my book details this – where I was being criticized for my own staff because I was pursuing these cold cases when staff couldn't keep up on the current casework.
00:24:41
And they're saying, you know, Holes is killing us. I love it. The bad boy in the lab.
00:24:50
Now, Paul, do you remember when you filmed cold case files? Was that the first thing like that that you ever did for TV?
00:24:59
Okay, so no. You know, the very first TV outside of a real quick snippet on news, like for O.J. Simpson, to date myself.
00:25:10
But the very first thing I did, believe it or not, was Unsolved Mysteries. Really?
00:25:15
Oh, wow. Yeah. What was the case? It was East Area Rapist. Oh, that makes sense.
00:25:21
Yeah. So in 2001, when we had the DNA link from East Area Rapist to the original Night Stalker down south, Unsolved Mysteries decided – they wanted to interview me.
00:25:33
So I went up to Sacramento and interviewed in a motel room, which was fairly straightforward.
00:25:38
But then I was down in San Diego for sergeant school, and then they called up and said, hey, we would love to have you reenact the phone call, you know, when I called down to Orange County about this link.
00:25:54
And that was so cool because they had me drive up to Los Angeles and in some old building downtown in a studio there you know an old set with bubbling beakers and test tubes in the background which was just so fake and not real So classic What You second What You didn have Bunsen burners No As you were The old eyewash station over here
00:26:18
Well, there were eyewash stations, but, you know, but that was really the first time.
00:26:23
And so I had to act, you know, on the phone. And then I had some extra that was on the set saying, well, you know, you didn't give a long enough pause to hear the person on the other side.
00:26:32
Oh, my God. I was like, okay. You know, but that that was that was the first time.
00:26:37
And how many takes? How many takes did you have to do to pretend to talk on the phone?
00:26:41
You know, there were multiple takes, but I don't remember how many I was. I was so nervous.
00:26:47
Right. Because this wasn't what I was used to. But, you know, it was a cool experience looking back on it.
00:26:53
And that was the first time. And then back in it was like in the 2008, 2009 time frame, media got interested in the case again.
00:27:01
So that's when I did the interview with Cold Case Files. true Hollywood stories investigates. And that's when one of the producers of that show,
00:27:12
Todd Lindsay, he's the one who claims to have told Michelle McNamara about the C.C.
00:27:19
Sarah Rapist case. And that's, of course, when Michelle got hooked as to, well, what is this
00:27:25
case? And then, of course, you know, everybody knows her story at this point. Yeah, of course.
00:27:29
That's amazing. It's so crazy to me that if you hadn't, it's like, I always think of turning points, little moments in people's lives.
00:27:37
And if you hadn't seen the TV at that job fair with a dude in blood, or if you had seen it and been like, what the hell?
00:27:44
And like, creeped out by it. But somehow, like, I feel like we can identify that with that as murderinos, that we see something like that and we go, what is that?
00:27:54
Instead of what the hell? Yeah, the feeling is you're being drawn towards something that's repelling other people.
00:28:02
And so then you're trying not to – you're like, how much do you judge yourself or how much do you talk to yourself about that or how much do you just go, I don't give a shit.
00:28:11
I need to know what is going on here. Yeah, it's one of those points in my life that I look back on.
00:28:18
And it was something that drew me into where for whatever reason I just have the personality and the skill set to do that kind of work
00:28:29
And it just was by coincidence that I saw that TV. So it is those little points in your life that, I mean, they make huge differences.
00:28:40
I mean, literally, if I hadn't seen that, I'd probably be working for a pharmaceutical company, driving around, giving out drug samples to doctors.
00:28:51
And high, high on pills. I'd be so high. I'd be so high. Your own pill addiction.
00:28:58
It would have been a mess. I mean, pills are so easy. They're just easy to do. And we'd never have the hot for holes hashtag.
00:29:06
And where would we be? That would be. We would be lost. None of this would be happening.
00:29:11
That's right. That's right. That was great. Thank you. You know, we love you, Paul.
00:29:16
Yes. Everybody does. Huge fans. But we're so proud that you are in our family. It just means the world to us that you and Billy do that show and that you actually did
00:29:27
join us after all because it's just the coolest. Yes. We're your number one fans.
00:29:31
Well, you know, I love you guys too. I mean, there's a special connection. And, you know, and Karen, you know, we we've we've flirted in the past.
00:29:42
You know, I mean, once this quarantine is over, I have a photo of the three of us from the Sacramento show.
00:29:50
I'll send it along if we want to put it on Instagram. Oh, sure. This is really cute.
00:29:55
It's fun. Backstage. Backstage, baby. Fun times. So April of 2022, make sure that you preorder unmasked my life solving America's cold cases.
00:30:06
by none other than Paul Holes. Always, always, always rate, review, and subscribe to The Murder Squad.
00:30:12
New episodes are released every Monday. Paul Holes, thank you so much for being on our Celebrity Hometown show.
00:30:21
So fun. Yes. Thank you for having me. It's been a pleasure. Great to see you. Yes, for sure.
00:30:26
Great to see you too. Bye. Bye. Elvis, do you want a cookie? Ah! This has been an Exactly Right production Our producer is Hannah Kyle Crichton
00:30:42
Our associate producer is Alejandra Keck. Engineered and mixed by Andrew Eapin. Send us your hometowns at myfavoritemurder at gmail.com.
00:30:50
Follow the show on Instagram and Facebook at My Favorite Murder and Twitter at My Fave Murder.
00:30:55
For more information about the podcast, live shows, merch, or to join the fan cult,
00:31:00
Go to MyFavoriteMurder.com. And please rate, review, and subscribe. Goodbye. Goodbye.
00:31:15
This episode is brought to you in part by Vital Farms. Have you noticed that the egg section at the grocery store has gotten very complicated lately?
00:31:22
But Vital Farms makes it simple. Pasture-raised eggs, traceable to the farm. Their hens have outdoor access year-round with fresh air and sunshine and forage on rotated pastures with local grasses.
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Every carton can be traced back to the farm it came from so you can see the pasture where the hens live by visiting vitalfarms.com.
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Look for the black carton in the egg aisle and visit vitalfarms.com to learn more.
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Vital Farms, good eggs, no shortcuts. Goodbye. Hey everyone, it's Kel Penn. I'm inviting you to join the best sounding book club you've ever heard with my podcast, Earsay, the Audible and iHeart Audiobook Club.
00:31:58
Every episode, I nerd out with amazing guests and dive into the best new audiobooks available on Audible.
00:32:05
It's the book club for your ears. Listen to Earsay, the Audible and iHeart Audiobook Club on the iHeartRadio app or wherever you get your podcasts.
00:32:14
Paramount Plus is now the home of all your BET favorites. What? Yes! With all new episodes of Tyler Perry's Divorce Sisters.
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You've always liked a little drama. Plus a whole new world of movies like Gladiator 2.
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And live sports like UFC. Welcome to the history books! New home, same family. Your BET favorites are now on Paramount+.
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